quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: No doubt! Sexy.
I'd let River terminate me any day
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Woo, creepy.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: I want the third one with no text framed on my wall.
Same here, but the second one. That's hot.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Hmmm. Haven't watched TV in 6 years. But...
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
Boy, River's all grown up, isn't she?
quote:I want the third one with no text framed on my wall.
That can probably be arranged. I don't have the resources here to do that, but check back with me this weekend. Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Oh, my. I hadn't been following... I thought she was going to play Sarah.
She's going to be a Terminator? I am now officially stoked.
Ms. Headey rocks as well... I, too, am going to have to start watching TV.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk: Boy, River's all grown up, isn't she?
quote:I want the third one with no text framed on my wall.
That can probably be arranged. I don't have the resources here to do that, but check back with me this weekend.
I photoshopped the text out; I just have to see if the resolution is sufficient to produce a good quality poster-size image. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I probably won't literally start watching TV. For one thing we don't get a broadcast signal. But I may have to get on Netflix when it comes out on DVD.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk: Boy, River's all grown up, isn't she?
quote:I want the third one with no text framed on my wall.
That can probably be arranged. I don't have the resources here to do that, but check back with me this weekend.
I photoshopped the text out; I just have to see if the resolution is sufficient to produce a good quality poster-size image.
You crazy Asians and your robosexualism! How many years does it take to naturalize that fetish out!? Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
It looks cool, but isn't Sarah Conner supposed to be blond?
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
"Boy, River's all grown up, isn't she?"
Summer Glau is older than Jewel (Kaylee) Staite, which still weirds me out.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:You crazy Asians and your robosexualism! How many years does it take to naturalize that fetish out!? [Big Grin]
Until some omnipotent force definitively rules out the possibility that a cute girl might, just might transform into a veritech fighter, I will continue to cling to hope. HOPE.
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
It's on Fox, it looks good, and so it will be canceled. I'll wait until the series ends and get it on DVD.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:You crazy Asians and your robosexualism! How many years does it take to naturalize that fetish out!? [Big Grin]
Until some omnipotent force definitively rules out the possibility that a cute girl might, just might transform into a veritech fighter, I will continue to cling to hope. HOPE.
You surely must realize that the Robotech curse applies to women/veritech fighters. The more you want it the less likely it will happen.
Just look at the Robotech video game and movie.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
(The latter sucked; if you haven't seen it, don't bother)
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
The video game is about as Robotech as my car*. As for that movie, I didn't know it existed thus proving my premise that if you don't hope for it, it happens.
The more reviews I read about it, the more I wish the crummy movie hadn't come out, as it wasted valuable funds that could have been used for a good Robotech movie.
* My car, I didn't want you mistakenly believing my car transforms into a veritech fighter, as awesome as that would be.
[ November 18, 2007, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: BlackBlade ]
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I love it that they have Summer Glau for a terminator. Seeing that delicate little child wiping out reivers by the hundred in Serenity was so classic! Her background as a premier ballerina turned out to be excellent preparation for the fight scenes in Serenity, and should serve her well in T4. Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
I have to say, I can't help but see posters #1, #3, and #4 as eroticizing the maiming of women (even if a robot is being shown).
The woman in #2 is quite sexy, though.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:River's all grown up, isn't she?
Hmm...
I'm always uncomfortable with threads getting all hawt about Summer Glau. In my mind, she's still a child, and thus NOT attractive.
I have the same problem with the sexualization of the girl who plays Lana Lang on Smallville.
Just...skeevy.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
I can't speak for other people, but I don't see anything immoral in fantasizing about her. According to Wikipedia, she's 26.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
How do you feel about porn that has legal age subjects portraying minors?
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
I never said River was hot; I said Summer Glau was. I've learned to differentiate the two. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
How old is River supposed to be? I never thought of her as a child.
And isn't the Smallville character Lana Lang about 25 years old?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I love it that they have Summer Glau for a terminator. Seeing that delicate little child wiping out reivers by the hundred in Serenity was so classic! Her background as a premier ballerina turned out to be excellent preparation for the fight scenes in Serenity, and should serve her well in T4.
I just wish they hadn't leaked it. Not that keeping it quiet would really be possible, but I got to see the pilot without knowing that she was going to be a terminator, and finding it out was great!
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:How old is River supposed to be? I never thought of her as a child.
They always talked about her like she's a teenager.
quote:And isn't the Smallville character Lana Lang about 25 years old?
I don't know how old she's supposed to be now; in the first season, she was still in High School.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
IIRC River is supposed to be 17 in the movie, but as with most teenaged characters on television/ film, she is played by an actor who is clearly older than the age of her character. Summer Glau, even while Firefly was being filmed, never looked younger to me than 19 or 20- much as Charisma Carpenter and Nick Brendon were obviously in their early twenties even back in the first season of "Buffy," when their characters were ostensibly 15 years old. Heck, I'm actually 23 and I look younger than first-season Xander did.
So yeah, I'm okay with pointing out that Summer (and Summer-as-River) is pretty good lookin'. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:How old is River supposed to be? I never thought of her as a child.
They always talked about her like she's a teenager.
I guess they did. I guess I never really bought it that she was so young, though. [/quote]
quote:And isn't the Smallville character Lana Lang about 25 years old?
I don't know how old she's supposed to be now; in the first season, she was still in High School. [/QUOTE]Yeah, that was seven years ago.
Or are you talking about sexualizing her back then when her character was in high school?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Back then.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: How do you feel about porn that has legal age subjects portraying minors?
Having never seen said porn, I can only assume that its hook is the fact that these girls are "minors," in which case: icky. I'd feel the same way about someone being attracted to a 26 year old portraying a 16 year old on the basis of the character being 16.
On the other hand, I'm 23, and I periodically find myself attracted to females who I later discover are underaged. Although it throws me off, I don't think this attraction is morally objectionable, since attraction is where it ends and the features I'm attracted to are not ones that are "young looking."
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Just because it's illegal for an adult in many states to be sexually involved with a 17 year old, doesn't mean that said 17 year old cannot be attractive. People don't instantly turn sexual on an arbitrary date, or when crossing state lines.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I only referred to River (Summer Glau) on Serenity as "a delicate little child," because I wanted to say "a delicate little girl," but that would have sounded un-PC. She is fairly pretty in a dainty, cute sort of way; but I thought all the other women on Serenity were more attractive.
Ballerinas--especially premiere ballerinas like Summer, tend to be generally small and slight in build. Makes it easier for the male partner to do the lifts with her without collapsing. But small and slight in build translates to cute, not to beautiful. To me, there is a difference. An average-sized woman may be beautiful and attractive. Only a tall woman can be elegant, like a "goddess." So it isn't just the figure; height matters too.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
I watched this last night. It was ok, not great. I'll give it a couple of more ep's. Did anyone else see it?
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
Yeah, there were quite a few things that I found wrong with it. Bullet-proof chair? Nice. I agree, a couple more eps.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Yeah, there were quite a few things that I found wrong with it. Bullet-proof chair? Nice. I agree, a couple more eps.
Niki had to calm me down when I saw that chair scene. There were tons of technical and plot complaints, both for plausibility and for contradictions with the first two movies (I don't consider the third in my "personal canon").
My biggest complaint in the third movie was the whiny useless snot version of John Conner. The John Conner is T2 could have wiped the floor with the John Conner in T3. I hated Nick Staal's version. I am more fit to lead an army than his character was.
Unfortunately, it appears that the show has used the T3 John Conner as the base, as opposed to the T2 version (the actor even mimics Nick Staal's voice). In T2, we have a 13 year old intelligent, extroverted, take-charge kid with attitude. At 15 he's a sheepish and introverted little mamma's boy?
YUCK!
"I should have known no pretty girl would want to talk to me..." This from the same punk kid who raised hell around LA on a motorcycle, told any authority figure to go screw themselves, and took great pleasure bossing around an 800 pound killing machine?
But it's more Terminator, and the first episode wasn't too terrible.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
You know, my knee-jerk reaction to those posters of Summer (which I've seen recently in magazines like TV Guide), particularly the one of just her head and upper body with wires coming out of the bottom, was that they were eroticizing the maiming of women. Did anybody else have that thought for at least a moment?
But I agree, Lisa, that Sarah Connor is beautiful in her poster.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
You know X, I never really thought about it, but you're completely right.
T2's John Connor is the kind of guy a military recruiter might wet themselves in eagerness to snatch up in wartime. T3's John Connor is the kind of guy they sign up because they need to fill recruitment quotas, heh.
-------
That chair was not bulletproof. If you listen carefully, later on when the agent whose name I forget (played Bruce van Exle in Judging Amy) is eating while the cops go over the old Connor house explains that there was kevlar in the chair, for probably exactly that purpose.
Not enough was made of how lax Sarah and John had gotten by thinking they had won. I mean, seriously, keeping the same name after bugging out on the fiance mysteriously one morning? That's the thing you definitely change if you don't want to be found.
I'm also not sure why the bodyguard Terminator said, "No one knows we're here," when they arrived in 2007, because how could she possibly have missed that guy with the camera-phone in the car gaping at them?
However, the twist that they go (partway) into the future was neat-o. I hadn't expected that. The idea of sending someone back further to build in a technological safehouse was also clever.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:However, the twist that they go (partway) into the future was neat-o. I hadn't expected that. The idea of sending someone back further to build in a technological safehouse was also clever.
Clever, maybe, but extraordinarily implausible.
I didn't catch the chair comment, so thanks for pointing that out.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: Clever, maybe, but extraordinarily implausible.
You just described the entire franchise. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
How is time travel into the future implausible in a series based on time travel from the future?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I dunno Xavier, I mean if I were in charge of the Resistance, it's certainly something I would hopefully consider.
The trouble is, where does it stop? Send a Terminator to start its own company in the 1800s, and then start cranking the little guys out by the dozens and spread them throughout the American Southwest, or even the world. Radio-activated, so the Connors can never go very far from a terminator. Heh, time machines always mean trouble:)
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
If anything, time travel to the future makes WAY more sense than time travel to the past.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I dunno Xavier, I mean if I were in charge of the Resistance, it's certainly something I would hopefully consider.
The trouble is, where does it stop? Send a Terminator to start its own company in the 1800s, and then start cranking the little guys out by the dozens and spread them throughout the American Southwest, or even the world. Radio-activated, so the Connors can never go very far from a terminator. Heh, time machines always mean trouble:)
I think they have to be careful to stay under the radar. If they change things to much, they risk having enemy terminators come back to the past and go to war with them...and they don't want to risk plunging the timeline further into the unknown.
Also, the needed supplies would be harder to find back in the 1800's, so setting up a massive operation would be tough. I would also imagine that making a terminator is much harder than making a gun.
As for the poster...I didn't see the one with the wires hanging down as mutilating women. I saw it as them building the terminator. I thought they were building her rather than pulling her apart.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: My biggest complaint in the third movie was the whiny useless snot version of John Conner. The John Conner is T2 could have wiped the floor with the John Conner in T3. I hated Nick Staal's version. I am more fit to lead an army than his character was.
Unfortunately, it appears that the show has used the T3 John Conner as the base, as opposed to the T2 version (the actor even mimics Nick Staal's voice). In T2, we have a 13 year old intelligent, extroverted, take-charge kid with attitude. At 15 he's a sheepish and introverted little mamma's boy?
YUCK!
"I should have known no pretty girl would want to talk to me..." This from the same punk kid who raised hell around LA on a motorcycle, told any authority figure to go screw themselves, and took great pleasure bossing around an 800 pound killing machine?
But it's more Terminator, and the first episode wasn't too terrible.
I disagree. I think it's reasonable that being told you're mankind's only hope in the future would begin to weigh on you and prey on you. Teenagers are angsty anyway. And then you've got that cloud over you? Plus nearly-unstoppable time-travelling killing machines stalking you and your mother? (They already wasted your dad)
Yeah, his character works for me. I can totally see a go-to-hell younger kid (who thought his mom was insane, BTW) turning into that teenager.
Also, he said "I should have known no pretty girl would talk to the weird new kid" (or something like that), which I thought too before he said it.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:You just described the entire franchise. [Wink]
quote:How is time travel into the future implausible in a series based on time travel from the future?
The fact that time travel is possible is an accepted "miracle" for the intellectual property.
What I was objecting to was not the fact that time travel is possible (in either direction) but that it is that EASY. Sending someone (be it a man or another terminator) back to 1963 to build a time machine is fine, I can accept that. It's the vast array of problems with plausibility in the actual creating of the time machine in 1963 (an age where you could only a few transistors in your hand) I was referring to, even after accepting the general premise of the Terminator series as a given.
Another thing I had a problem with was the male terminator ripping apart that bank vault door. It doesn't matter how much force the dude could generate (although this alone is troubling, those things are solid steel), he wouldn't have the leverage required to do it. If he hit the door as hard as he did, he'd be thrown back 100 feet by his own strength.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Yeah, the bank vault scene pushed the limits of plausibility.
I like how the SWAT team just stared at him, did nothing, and let him go into the bank.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Another thing I had a problem with was the male terminator ripping apart that bank vault door. It doesn't matter how much force the dude could generate (although this alone is troubling, those things are solid steel), he wouldn't have the leverage required to do it. If he hit the door as hard as he did, he'd be thrown back 100 feet by his own strength.
These are the kinds of things that you'll just have to get over if you're gonna enjoy most super-strength including movies, heh.
I mean, the last film I can recall that even made a nod in that direction was Spider-man 2 with Doc Ock using his extra limbs to stabilize himself when flinging cars and stuff.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I mean, the last film I can recall that even made a nod in that direction was Spider-man 2 with Doc Ock using his extra limbs to stabilize himself when flinging cars and stuff.
And even so, the way he used those arms would have torn them out of his spinal cord long before he ever got to use them for feats of strength.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Comic books are one thing. Heck, I have 200+ Incredible Hulk comics. I expect more from a Terminator property when it comes to realism. Perhaps it was because I was still a kid when I first saw them, but I don't remember any really gross violations of the laws of physics in the first two movies (setting aside the actual time travel of course). I could probably think of some, but since T2 was about the most entertaining movie I've ever seen (and still holds up incredibly well), I guess my brain is otherwise occupied when I watch.
Speaking of the Hulk, ripping apart that bank vault door could only have been done by a character with Incredible Hulk strength, and even then it wouldn't be easy. The terminators are strong, sure, but they can't come close generating the ENORMOUS amount of force that this terminator was doing easily.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Consider the nigh impossible power supply and complicated technology it would take for a humanoid robot to move in a normal baseline human manner (let alone handle anything. Let alone not wear out -very- quickly) and the entire concept becomes even more incredible. Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Yeah, certainly, but a lot less incredible when you imagine the technological breakthroughs possible with super-intelligent machines inventing other super-intelligent machines in the future.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: Yeah, certainly, but a lot less incredible when you imagine the technological breakthroughs possible with super-intelligent machines inventing other super-intelligent machines in the future.
"It's a lot less incredible when you accept the magic beans!"
We do have humanoid robots. And they're working on getting them to play sports, dance, the whole deal. But they're still a long way off from doing so in a way that doesn't fall right into the uncanny valley. Let alone in a way that gives them super-human sentience. Just sayin'.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I mean, the last film I can recall that even made a nod in that direction was Spider-man 2 with Doc Ock using his extra limbs to stabilize himself when flinging cars and stuff. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There was also the latest superman movie when he rips the wing off the plane trying to get it to stop spinning, then when he finally stops it, the nose bends in from the inertia+the weight of the plane. (Yet it didn't rip in half when he set it down.)
I liked the pilot and felt it went by too quickly. I'm looking forward to tonight.
Though, I too, groaned when the chair stopped the bullets. At least, until the explanation came by in the next scene. I suppose if she can have guns hidden in the walls she can make Kevlar furniture.
I don't like the new Sarah though. She's probably the weakest link thus far. Hopefully she'll grow on me (like the new bionic woman did.)
Anyway as to all of the unrealistic stuff... "Repeat to yourself it's just a show I should really just relax."
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote: We do have humanoid robots. And they're working on getting them to play sports, dance, the whole deal. But they're still a long way off from doing so in a way that doesn't fall right into the uncanny valley.
If you remember from T1, they did mention that the first generation of humanoid Terminators were not very convincing.
They got better at making them. Consider how much better we are at making them than we were 20 years ago. Apply that exponential curve to another 20 years. Now imagine that same curve, where one or more super-intelligent program is doing the research and development, with an unlimited budget. This is the same super-intelligence which discovered how to send objects back in time (humans only did it by stealing the technology), so you gotta imagine that technological advancements are within its scope.
quote:"It's a lot less incredible when you accept the magic beans!"
When the basic premise of the show is that magic beans exist, then it seems silly to complain about the existence of magic beans. I see no reason to not complain about other things which are not related to the basic "magic beans exist" indulgence, however.
[ January 14, 2008, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
I just wanted to slap John in the face in the middle of the second episode.
**************** Mini Spoiler ****************
I might have a little more sympathy for him leaving the house if he wasn't being chased by terminators.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
"Please remain calm."
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
I'm liking the show (and the posters, if anyone remembers the OP). It has all of the first-episode problems (whiny characters, bad dialogue, strange story problems) but the basic ability to sort them out. Everyone already knows the backstories, so no time needs to be wasted on that.
This is a good show that Fox may not cancel.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: My biggest complaint in the third movie was the whiny useless snot version of John Conner. The John Conner is T2 could have wiped the floor with the John Conner in T3. I hated Nick Staal's version. I am more fit to lead an army than his character was.
I just watched the first part. This part struck me, you're quite right but it actually is worse IMO. Basically every character has been gimped. Linda Hamilton's Sarah could twist this pretty new one into a knot. The T2 Connor would punch this one in the nose and take his stuff. Cameron is cute but stylistically more comparable to one of BSG's humanoid Cylons rather than Arnold's unstoppable steamroller. Even the "enemy" Terminators are rather undaunting, if only to match. (all these comments are based on the vibe that the actors give off obviously, rather than as a prediction of how they'll act later)
But, eh. Nothing else seems to be on and it was passably enjoyable, might as well stick around until Fox cancels it Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: "Please remain calm."
She nailed that line.
That and when she cut off that guys laughing with her own and stopped as soon as he stopped and just sauntered off, brilliant!
I like the show, but I'm just not feeling the constant sense of impending doom that the movies have. Maybe it's the music or the way it's shot. When they went to the bank for example, they KNEW a terminator was hot on their heels and they weren't even looking around, they just walked and stared straight ahead.
With how much both Connors have been through, I'd be EXTREMELY paranoid and VERY aware of my surroundings.
Also, is John completely unable to handle a firearm? Or is his mom afraid he'll be to brazen if he is confident in the use of weapons? I can't recall one instance in Terminator 1 or 2 where he uses a gun. I know he uses a Kalashnikov in 3 but I pretend 3 didn't happen.
As for terminators pulling off bank vault doors. Apparently they are completely bullet proof, AND they can fall 30+ feet onto the pavement and suffer no indentations in their skeletal structure. This leads me to believe they are made of some sort of super metal alloy; it's darn near indestructible. Bearing that in mind, their feats of super strength do not bother me.
I also didn't like in the pilot episode where the terminator corners John between two cars, points his gun, waits for him to look up, makes an expression, then gets hit by Cameron driving a truck.
What was the point of waiting period? Terminators don't feel the need to gloat, or mutter one liners, unless your Arnold in which case you learn to by talking to John.
It just bothers me that they setup these scenarios where the Terminators are THIS close to killing their target but because they feel the need to look good as they fire the shot they hesitate one moment too long. You can be sure that if a Terminator fires without hesitation, like when he fired at John in the classroom he will not be hitting his target.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:I mean, the last film I can recall that even made a nod in that direction was Spider-man 2 with Doc Ock using his extra limbs to stabilize himself when flinging cars and stuff.
And even so, the way he used those arms would have torn them out of his spinal cord long before he ever got to use them for feats of strength.
Go watch Ghost in the Shell again you big baby.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
The second episode was much better. I think I'll stick with it for a little while.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Also, is John completely unable to handle a firearm? Or is his mom afraid he'll be to brazen if he is confident in the use of weapons? I can't recall one instance in Terminator 1 or 2 where he uses a gun.
John had clearly been trained to reload clips of ammunition in T2. With all the other skills Sarah and his mentors taught him, shooting a gun would be a no-brainer. Sarah basically chose boyfriends by what they could teach John that would be useful when he became a military commander. One of those boyfriends taught her how to shoot, and clearly they would have done the same for John.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
Something that bothered me in the second episode
*spoilerish*
Why did the terminator head from the bank vault make it through the portal into the future? It didn't have the skin covering it...and I thought that was a requirement for time travel.
Also, who was that EMT that John went to see? I definitely missed something there.
Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
I assumed that the head just remained there for the eight years or so that they traveled into the future. The old terminator was blown up by that gun that Sarah used (of course, why it wasn't noticed after the explosion is beyond me. maybe the whole bank exploded).
The EMT was the man at the beginning of the first episode that Sarah Connor was tempted to marry. They had been together for 2 years IIRC.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
oh ok. Thanks.
Maybe I was wrong about the head...I just got the feeling that it came through with them in the explosion because it just activated now.
I also thought it was cheesy that the head could control the body wirelessly. What does the body need the head for if it can move around and kill people on its own when the head isn't anywhere close by.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
I'm watching episode 2 on DVR, but the sound sync is off, which is kind of ticking me off... any way to fix that?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
The head clearly pops off the body and flies into the portal when she fired that gun. It traveled with them into the future while the body apparently sat in a dump.
The head activated the next day after the garbage collector took it home and then the body, which had been sitting at the dump for 9 years reactivated.
I also agree it's alittle strange the body can do so much without a head. Of course we are assuming the only CPU and Optical sensor devices are in the head.
edit: Are you guys sure skin is a REQUIREMENT to be sent back in time, or is it more you can't take anything with you besides the skin and whatever else is under it?
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
As established in the movies, whatever goes back has to be enclosed in something living. Which makes this a fairly glaring problem, unless the head still had skin on it when it flew in the portal but managed to lose it all before it landed.
Also kinda unlikely that a Terminator body would just get dumped at a junkyard after being found on the scene of a bank robbery/explosion that apparently included 4 fatalities.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: As established in the movies, whatever goes back has to be enclosed in something living. Which makes this a fairly glaring problem, unless the head still had skin on it when it flew in the portal but managed to lose it all before it landed.
Also kinda unlikely that a Terminator body would just get dumped at a junkyard after being found on the scene of a bank robbery/explosion that apparently included 4 fatalities.
Not all criminal investigations are conducted equally. I can see a sloppy investigation simply throwing the terminator bits in the dump along with the pieces of the vault, and the terminator reassembling his body upon activation.
But I agree the head thing is a bit questionable.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
A bank robbery that involved 4 deaths and a bank vault door with fingermarks in the metal? I think that would be investigated pretty darn thoroughly, especially since the FBI had an interest.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: A bank robbery that involved 4 deaths and a bank vault door with fingermarks in the metal? I think that would be investigated pretty darn thoroughly, especially since the FBI had an interest.
4 deaths with NO forensic evidence left behind. The case would very quickly go cold, and clean up would ensue. Also I am not sure Terminators have individual finger prints on their fingers.
Law enforcement on occassion do simply report a lame conclusion and hope it all goes away when faced with a complete lack of solid evidence.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
also, the terminators are supposed to be very heavy...you would think moving the body would be a big deal, and hard to miss.
At the very least it would make people wonder. Though my biggest problem is the fact that the head made it through the portal.
Also, it doesn't make sense that all terminators wouldn't be programed with John Connors face. He is the leader of the resistance, you would think every terminator would be programmed with his face and orders to kill just in case they ran across him somewhere out of the ordinary. In T3 the terminator did not expect to see John, but when she ran across him, she sure didn't waste any time trying to kill him. Granted, she was from further in the future...but still even the old terminators could be programed with his picture.
I still find it to be an interesting show, even if it doesn't follow the terminator rules. I doubt it would have survived without the strike limiting other options, but it is entertaining enough to hold my interest during the strike.
Besides, I'm in love with Summer Glau
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
Super-strong robots aren't that jarring to me as long as they're from sufficiently far in the future. Who knows what kind of metals or stabilizing force fields man (or intelligent robots) could have by then?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Lupus, it may be the ultrasonic sounds of the high-capacity servomotors that make dogs bark at the terminators. Probably hurts their ears.
Yes, Summer Glau steals the show. She is also showing real subtlety in her expressions and manner--good acting ability. And it is good to see River is still kicking butt!
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: 4 deaths with NO forensic evidence left behind. The case would very quickly go cold, and clean up would ensue. Also I am not sure Terminators have individual finger prints on their fingers.
I dunno. Four deaths, a bunch of wacky equipment that looks like a gun and some pretty simultaneously advanced and retro computer equipment (assuming that stuff did not self-destruct), at least four witnesses, and fingerprints from the two humans in the vault. I dunno... it seems to stretch plausibility.
Edit to add: Only watched the first part so far...
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
Doesn't the bubble that contains the time portal destroy any non-living, non-encased material? I think I remember part of the rear of a semi-truck trailer disappearing when a time portal appeared in the first movie.
If the portal in the bank vault were big enough, it could have destroyed any evidence of the machine that made it (and the terminater head, to nitpick).
But then that leaves a large area of nothing in the vault where something used to be. Of course that means no evidence either, so the investigation could very likely go cold anyway, even if the crime scene was very strange.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I believe the time spheres only destroy everything around you when you arrive, not when you depart.
Though that is pure speculation.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I said fingermarks, not finger prints. A hand-shaped gouge in a reinforced steel vault door might raise some eyebrows.
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
TV imitates xkcd.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Episode two:
Nice touch: John Connor walks up to a modern computer and screws up. I hate shows where a character can walk up to a computer system X (where X is from the future/alien/past) and immediately start hacking into it and using it as if they were experts at it.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
quote:I like the show, but I'm just not feeling the constant sense of impending doom that the movies have.
Perfectly put. I really dislike this show. For all of the reasons mentioned above, but mostly because these people (Sarah, John, and T) aren't pulling it off. I'm not sure what I expected, this isn't it though. It doesn't help that I am die hard Terminator fan. In my opinion, they should have followed the books. For the record, I have nothing against Nick Stahl, I think he is awesome, he just wasn't half the John that Ed Furlong was.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
I've just seen the first episode. Not a big fan so far.
Comparing this evil Terminator to Ahnold and Robert Patric kind of reminds me of the difference between the raptors in Jurassic Park 1 and 2. In their former incarnations they're terrifying, unstoppable killing machines that pursue their prey relentlessly and dispassionately, never wasting a moment that could be spent killing. Then in the sequels they get just close enough to the protagonist to create "suspense," at which point both the terminator and the raptors cock their heads to the side in a way that tries and fails to appear menacing, and then they wait for their prey to overcome them or escape.
I lost count of the number of times in the pilot that the terminator cocked his head to the side like a special-ed kid trying to solve a quadratic equation. If nothing else, it would make an excellent drinking game. I hope that whoever took the time and effort to program the head-cocking subroutine into his code is currently in the future-sentient-robot equivalent of the unemployment line.
Oh, and is "naked in the pilot" written into all of Summer Glau's TV series contracts? Not that I'm complaining, you understand... Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I think the head-cocking thing is a recall to T2. The T-1000 did it a lot, and it was annoying then but maybe not so clichéd.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
I am watching T2 right now and I think I have figured it out. Music! The show is missing the suspenseful music.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
They added little bits of the theme into the show, but you're right.
That and I don't think anyone can fill Linda Hamilton's shoes as Sarah Connor. I remember seeing her in T2 and thinking she was totally badass. I just don't get that impression yet with this new actress. She wears impractical little skirts and she's not as focused. Not implacable like she was in T2. But maybe that's because she thought the worst of the danger was past. I'll keep watching, but I'm not so impressed.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
Dadadaaaaa!
Sorry Val, I tried to give you something.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
To be fair, Sarah's only wore skirts (I believe) when she was in her waitress outfit.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
There was the dream sequence in the opening of the pilot when she went an got John from school and she was wearing a skirt.
Of course, she could have just came from work.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I love that they named the FBI guy James Ellison. It's nice that they're giving the guy Terminator was stolen from some name credit.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
He's acting more manly this episode.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
I chuckled when Cameron/Summer Glau told John "don't be a freak" when he wanted to save the girl committing suicide. He had been telling her not to get noticed, and then he was going to get noticed himself.
I also like the fact that they have kept her as a rather ruthless terminator. They tamed down Arnold quite a bit when John told him not to kill humans...Summer's terminator hasn't been tamed yet.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Why was Cameron so good at playing human in the pilot and so rotten at it now?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I'm not sure she is. That might be the point of the "I fooled you" and "I fooled you again" conversations.
She might have the ability to act more human, but not the inclination to.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Why wouldn't she have with the suicidal girl in the bathroom, though?
Also... did it feel weird to anyone else that they did all that hinting about what she was so upset about, and then never did the big reveal?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I would guess that the girl was simply not relevant to her mission of protecting John.
(i.e. she had to emulate humans pretty well to fool John who was potentially saavy to figuring out who she was. Now, she doesn't have to. The girl likely won't guess who she is no matter how bizarre she acts)
I thought the lack of a reveal was odd too, maybe cut for time. I just figured love triangle gone bad and someone was spray painting references to it around.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Cameron doesn't have to be good at playing human. Just looking the way she looks, no one would ever suspect she is a killing machine. I liked the way the other terminator who fell to the street with her did a quick analysis, realized she was a terminator of an unknown type, and chose the option to flee. Good choice--especially since she might be a newer model with some as yet undisclosed abilities. That's twice now the question of what model terminator she is has come up, and not been answered. She also mentioned they were in the building where she had been built. Make that three foreshadowings now--there has got to be some special surprise in the the model of terminator she is.
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
Was there not a new episode this week?
edit: well, according to Fox's schedule there was, but it doesn't seem to be available online. Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
There wasn't. They reran the pilot.
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
Oh good. Thanks. Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
All because of the stupid state of the union!
Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
quote:Originally posted by Valentine014: I am watching T2 right now and I think I have figured it out. Music! The show is missing the suspenseful music.
Yes! The music is key. I actually think the terminator in the opening dream sequence of pilot was well done. He had the facial expression and the body build down perfect. Cromartie was better in the third episode than in the first (probably because of the clothes).
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: All because of the stupid state of the union!
Not stupid. "Strong."
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Peachy.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Yay for the return of Terminator! I thought it was a great episode. I don't know why the new character had to look like she was from the Jetsons though.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Good point. By the way, that's Shirley Manson, lead singer for "Garbage". And she's the one who sung the song at the beginning of the episode. The song's name is "Samson and Delilah", like the episode.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Yeah, I knew who she was, just forgot he name.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I like the song. Hate the new Terminator.
ETA: I liked Cromartie's "We'll see." That was well done.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Yes, that "We'll see" was a good moment. As for the T-1000, I have to admit that I was never real fond of that kind of terminator in the movie Terminator III. I thought that because the TV series is assumed to come between Terminator II and III, and that III had actually been knocked into a temporal loop because of the changes made in the TV series, there would be no T-1000s. They are just too hard to deal with, and just a little too hard to suspend disbelief for such an improbable thing. How could it be flowing and changeable like liquid mercury, and yet solid and strong enough to toss around a T-101 (the Schwarzeneggar type)?
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
I think Schwarzeneggar was a T-800-101, where 101 referred to his cosmetic appearance as Schwarzeneggar.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
In Terminator 2 special edition Schwarzeneggar is a T 800 series model 101.
I'm also not fond of the T 1000. They just seem to be to invincible.
I think that Cameron is some sort of special Terminator that is better at learning...and adjusting. When the T 1000 was talking about how machines that break the rules are so rare...it made me think of her. Also, in the first season we hear her playing piano and dancing, which is something different. Perhaps it shows she has creativity.
*Some spoilers for the most resent episode*
Finally...did anyone else notice that when she rebooted (after John put the chip back in...and stopped them from burning her), her display still said that she was supposed to Terminate John, but then it said "Override Termination" suggesting that she can override her programing herself.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Everyone noticed that. Did you notice the new terminator morphed into a toilet?
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I thought this episode was better than pretty much all the other ones combined. I liked the fact that it didn't begin with a lame monologue trying to sound deeper than it was. I really liked the fact that even though Cameron's "I love you line" was predictable and a tad cliché, it was incredibly well done. I'm genuinely unsure how they're going to Jon's relationship with her play out, whereas most shows spell it out from the beginning and then just string it along ridiculously till the series finale.
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
I can see John's relationship with Cameron playing out the same way that his relationship with Arnold's terminator did, but not before she takes his virginity (Because the tension is there. We all know it ).
Cameron has to be destroyed eventually if the beginning of T3:ROTM is to be believed. By that point (if the show remains on track), Cameron will have become a beloved, deeply developed character. Something far more than machine. Her death makes this fact far more tragic.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: Everyone noticed that. Did you notice the new terminator morphed into a toilet?
I tried not to.
I'm really not fond of that T-1000.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
It really didn't make sense to me for her to kill the whiny AI guy. He wasn't a threat, just an annoyance, and leaving a trail of bodies everywhere you go seems stupid to me.
quote:Originally posted by The Reader: [QB] I can see John's relationship with Cameron playing out the same way that his relationship with Arnold's terminator did, but not before she takes his virginity (Because the tension is there. We all know it )./QB]
I actually wonder whether terminators come with remotely functional sexual organs. It seems a weird thing for them to need. (Then again, I guess we already met that terminator that got married to the woman politician or whatever she was to manipulate her.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Reader: ... Cameron has to be destroyed eventually if the beginning of T3:ROTM is to be believed. By that point (if the show remains on track), Cameron will have become a beloved, deeply developed character. Something far more than machine. Her death makes this fact far more tragic.
I don't think it necessarily works that way. T3 takes place in 2004, this TV show has already jumped to 2007 in the pilot so we're already developing a new time-line.
Furthermore, I don't think its the intention of the creators of the show to make it consistent with T3, e.g.:
quote: GN TV: Are you working within the continuity of the Terminator movies, specifically Terminator 3?
Friedman: We're gonna go off on our own. I think the thing about T3 is, obviously there was just no Sarah Connor and that's something the fans were never happy with. I don't even think the people who made T3 were happy with that. It just wasn't a choice of theirs. You know, Linda Hamilton was going through some things and didn't want to be a part of it. They had a script at one point I know; there was a T3 that had Sarah in it. I've never read it. I don't know anything about it. But I know that they did and they wanted to do that. They wanted it to be kind of her trilogy, and it never could be. So I think that my feeling was this TV series to me sort of serves as the third act to that trilogy - what could have happened had we followed that after T2. So I almost think of this as T3. To me it takes the place of T3. But also I think that sort of in the spirit of Terminator, it's an alternate timeline. I know a lot of people get very worked up about the continuity and the canon and all that stuff. What I try to do is stay very, very true to the first two movies and then sort of take it from there. But always remain true to the spirit of everyone's intent and again, take some time with this woman and explore what maybe would have happened.
IGN TV: So we shouldn't expect her to get leukemia in Season 3?
Friedman: You should not expect her to get leukemia in Season 3… Unless Lena really pisses me off.
Right, Mucus. The producers said the show assumes an alternate history created by changes Sarah and John have made, which makes the T3 movie obsolete. Already we have Sarah outliving her own death. I wish this would be done for the Aliens cycle, and get rid of Aliens 3, with its abominable violation of everything good in the story lines of the first two movies.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:I don't think it necessarily works that way. T3 takes place in 2004, this TV show has already jumped to 2007 in the pilot so we're already developing a new time-line.
Although T3 may be erased, I have a feeling they'll still want to make room for T4, and unless Cameron is showing up there (doubtful), she's still probably slated for death.
On one hand, in the abstract, I think it'd be such a powerful scene (especially with multiple seasons to build it up instead of a 2 hour movie). On the other hand.. it'd be the exact same thing as in T2, which might be a little too repetitive.
I'm not sure what I think about them ditching the leukemia thing. I actually thought that added a nice extra layer of forboding-ness (which is totally a word) to the scenario.
Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 5108) on :
I think I read somewhere that the new T4 assumes that the T3 did happen, and is completely ignoring the TV show. Or was that a dream?
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Right, Mucus. The producers said the show assumes an alternate history created by changes Sarah and John have made, which makes the T3 movie obsolete. Already we have Sarah outliving her own death.
I hope T3 is obsolete now. It ruined much of the mythology of the franchise, at least for me.
And didn't that movie take place some time around 2009-2010?
quote:I think I read somewhere that the new T4 assumes that the T3 did happen, and is completely ignoring the TV show. Or was that a dream?
That sounds more like a nightmare.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Pretty sure that there are currently two threads running. There's the T3 -> T4 movie thread, and then there's the show thread that branched off at T2. The two are completely separate alternate universes.
In fact T4 is the first movie of a second trilogy about the resistance war.
quote:I think I read somewhere that the new T4 assumes that the T3 did happen, and is completely ignoring the TV show. Or was that a dream?
That sounds more like a nightmare.
Thats what I heard anyways. AKAIK, T3 and T4 are sequential and split off from the TV show with no real communication between the two.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Sounds like the Sarah Connor Chronicles world and the T3-T4 world are alternate universes with their own story lines. Thats fine. To each his own.
As I said before, I wish this could be done for the Aliens cycle of movies, too. Everything after Aliens should be set aside as an alternate universe, and the real, BETTER story line would be one inwhich the soldier and the little girl survive, there is no alien stowaway, and they do make it safely back home--only to find, perhaps, that some aliens have gotten back to earth by other means. Then we can bring the Predators back into the story line (AvP was OK, but it needs to be continued in a better way than AvP2 did it with its simplistic slasher plot).
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
OK, what the heck?
I'll avoid specific spoilers, but why did the writers of last night's episode decide to give up? I expect to stretch reality for the very premise of this show, but that one had so many holes in it - mostly relating to nuclear power plant security and safety - I just stared goggle-eyed.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
What got me was how many terminators there are. What chance do the Connors have? Soon all the terminators SkyNet ever made, and all the resistance fighters who survive, will be showing up as time travelers.
You have to be careful when writing fiction stories that involve time travel. It is really tricky. The writers for the TV series have been doing fairly well, but I think they are on the verge of losing their way. They may get to the point where John and Sarah and Cameron (if she remains loyal) and Reese travel back in time a few years, so the writers can sweep away all that has gone before, and start out fresh.
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: What got me was how many terminators there are. What chance do the Connors have? Soon all the terminators SkyNet ever made, and all the resistance fighters who survive, will be showing up as time travelers.
You have to be careful when writing fiction stories that involve time travel. It is really tricky. The writers for the TV series have been doing fairly well, but I think they are on the verge of losing their way. They may get to the point where John and Sarah and Cameron (if she remains loyal) and Reese travel back in time a few years, so the writers can sweep away all that has gone before, and start out fresh.
Keep in mind that not all these Terminators are there for the Connors. Each has their own programed task.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Cameron is really going native, isn't she. She's seriously irked with John for saving her, she's contravening her own programming by not terminating him... she may be evolving into something the creators of the terminators never anticipated. Real independent AI.
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
This is another one filmed in New Mexico, but none of us got to be in it. We REALLY wanted to be in the new Terminator movie, but they didn't call us as extras in that either.... SIGH
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:Cameron is really going native, isn't she. She's seriously irked with John for saving her, she's contravening her own programming by not terminating him... she may be evolving into something the creators of the terminators never anticipated. Real independent AI.
I just watched Terminator 2 again on Saturday. There's a scene I didn't notice before (I'v only seen it once) where Arnold says something about his CPU allows him to learn and evolve, but that Skynet puts some kind of limit on it to prevent terminators from thinking too much and going rogue just like Skynet did in the first place. So I don't think it's unexpected for Cameron to develop a variety of strange behaviors if John reprogrammed her in the future.
However, right now she does seem pretty "buggy," lagging out at random intervals, probably because of the damaged chip.
quote:"So is she a threat?" "I don't know, girls are complicated."
Lol.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Ha ha, yeah I loved that line. This episode wasn't very good, but it still had some cool moments. Next week looks like it should be good.
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
If it is anything like the new set of Batman movies, then I'm fine with having two seperate storylines. It's only fiction.
I wish the TV show didn't insult my intelligence by suggesting a janitor can get into restricted areas of a nuclear power plant, even if she has the right key card. Shouldn't that set off all the alarms for someone?
I have to agree with Ron. I don't like multiple new terminators popping up. It sets up too many scenarios for multiple paradoxes (I know, I know, but I have already fully suspended my disbelief.) especially if the writers forget to destroy a terminator that has been killed. I prefered it when there was only one terminator posing as a FBI agent, and another as a politician's husband. Though I admit, I can't remember the details of that situation.
Lostinspace, I think that all of the terminators are programmed to kill John Conner if they meet him, even when that is not their primary mission. I think that happened in T3.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I don't have a problem with there being multiple terminators. It makes reasonable sense for Skynet to have sent a bunch back. What bothers me is the population density. This applies to the whole show - how is it that all these people manage to end up in the same city, when they should be constantly on the run, and they have a whole world to constantly run to. (I know, John and Sarah are trying to have a "normal" life, but why do they end up settling down in a city where people already knew who they were?)
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
They have given up on running and are trying to stop Skynet from ever coming into existance. If that happens, however, that means no more John!
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
No it doesn't. He already exists dummy.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
Just saw the new episodes on Hulu. I kinda expected a T-1000 to show up eventually, and of course this time it's another hot looking Terminator with a foreign accent, so no argument there.
Best comment about Episode 2 comes from Hulu:
quote:So the message of the show is to you kids our there is, no matter now hot your computer looks in a miniskirt, don't fall in love with it. And hot girls are pool hustlers.
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: No it doesn't. He already exists dummy.
Think of the reason he exists...if skynet does not exist, there would be no reason to send his father back through time. If his father does not go through time, he does not meet Sarah and sorry but then no John!
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
It doesn't work that way. The kid who invented the Turk was alive in the future. Now he's been killed. If he's dead, they wouldn't have sent anyone back to kill him, and he'd be alive. It's the grandfather paradox.
The same thing is true for John himself. If they manage to kill him, he'll never become a threat to them, so they'll never have to send anyone back to kill him, so he'll grow up and become a threat to them, so they'll send terminators back to kill him, ad infinitum.
Clearly, once a change has occurred, the futures either branch, or get replaced, but those who exist in the past are already there and part of the new timeline, even if their source no longer exists.
There's an interesting result from this. Even if they manage to prevent SkyNet from ever coming into existence, the terminators who have been sent back in time will still exist. There just won't be any more sent back. So they have to not only stop SkyNet, but they have to destroy every single terminator that's already been sent back. Otherwise a loose terminator could start it all going again. And for all we know, they've sent one back to 1950 to just sit and wait and make sure things turn out right. <brr...>
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote:I wish the TV show didn't insult my intelligence by suggesting a janitor can get into restricted areas of a nuclear power plant, even if she has the right key card.
It is also insulting and lazy of them to let a nuclear power plant hire a janitor and send her to work that day, immediately after the interview.
Surely nuclear power plants have a more stringent vetting procedure then McDonalds.
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
quote:Originally posted by lem:
quote:I wish the TV show didn't insult my intelligence by suggesting a janitor can get into restricted areas of a nuclear power plant, even if she has the right key card.
It is also insulting and lazy of them to let a nuclear power plant hire a janitor and send her to work that day, immediately after the interview.
Surely nuclear power plants have a more stringent vetting procedure then McDonalds.
If you watch the show, they kind of passed by all the quickly with a I see you passed the exam and background check. They really don't tell us when they did that exam. I know it was with in two days, so yeah a little unreal, but hey it is fiction after all!
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: It doesn't work that way. The kid who invented the Turk was alive in the future. Now he's been killed. If he's dead, they wouldn't have sent anyone back to kill him, and he'd be alive. It's the grandfather paradox.
The same thing is true for John himself. If they manage to kill him, he'll never become a threat to them, so they'll never have to send anyone back to kill him, so he'll grow up and become a threat to them, so they'll send terminators back to kill him, ad infinitum.
Clearly, once a change has occurred, the futures either branch, or get replaced, but those who exist in the past are already there and part of the new timeline, even if their source no longer exists.
There's an interesting result from this. Even if they manage to prevent SkyNet from ever coming into existence, the terminators who have been sent back in time will still exist. There just won't be any more sent back. So they have to not only stop SkyNet, but they have to destroy every single terminator that's already been sent back. Otherwise a loose terminator could start it all going again. And for all we know, they've sent one back to 1950 to just sit and wait and make sure things turn out right. <brr...>
I guess it all depends on the theory of the time travel you follow. The turk was invented and done when he was killed. So killing him did not make much of a change in the future. Ending skynet would end the resistance, hence, no terminators sent back in time hence no one needed to save Sarah Connor. This would end John. There have been other sci fi novels and movies that base on the change of an event in the past will end or future will change all of the future and past.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
How could they pass any decent background check? Their phoney IDs could not be that good.
I agree with Lisa, once you have come back in time, you have stepped outside of the reach of cause and effect, and become your own independent cause. Or at least, cause and effect cannot flow from the future to the past, only from the past to the future. There is no Grandfather Paradox.
The only way to have a timeline evaporate is to travel further into the past and undo it. It is a sort of seeking the ultimate high ground, who can go back further. What SkyNet should do is wrap itself in pseudo-flesh and send itself way back into time, before the invention of gunpowder, and rebuild itself there and exterminate all the humans.
Wait a minute--who's side am I on, here?
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
He doesn't need to send back his father to exist. If he went out right now and killed Kyle Reese as a little kid, he wouldn't fade out of existence. Of course, he would still need to send him back if SkyNet sends the original terminator back again. If they fail to stop SkyNet from being created, their priority should be to get time travel out of the hands of SkyNet.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
The Grandfather Paradox never made sense to me. If you exist at a certain point in time, you exist. It doesn't matter how you got there.
More to the point, any sci-fi story about changing the past inherently assumes the Grandfather Paradox doesn't exist. If it didn't, the story would be completely pointless.
Posted by Aris Katsaris (Member # 4596) on :
In the Terminator universe, causality can with time-travel proceed from merely "potential" futures.
Kyle Reese was from one potential future. Removing that potentiality doesn't wipe out Kyle Reese -- causality doesn't work that way, because when Sarah Connor met him he was still existing in a potential future.
No Grandfather paradox -- if you go back and kill your grandfather, then he'll be dead, and you'll still be alive. The causal arrow that caused you passed through a once-current, then-potential, then-impossible future, but it's still there.
(As a sidenote, up to and including Terminator 2, there was no certainty that world history could be modified at all. The protagonists believe they've altered history in T2, but the viewers had no need to believe that they were right -- this is altered in both T3 and the Sarah Connor chronicles, as both talk about alternate timelines)
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
In response to the previous three posts:
To fix all possible paradoxes, all of the causal arrows must eventually converge on the point that created the original time-travelling paradox, no matter what time it actually happens. In the Terminator franchise, for all possible paradoxes to be rectified, Skynet must be created and it must take over the planet. Because that is how it originally happened, that is the only way it can happen.
Do I have this right, or am I missing something?
I think I understand why the grandfather paradox doesn't make sense to you, Raymond Arnold. Paradoxes by definition destroy themselves.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
(Heh, you can call me Ray...)
There's only two theories of time travel that make any kind of sense to me. You either create parallel universes by doing so (which kind of defeats the purpose of changing the past), or doing so completely erases the original future and replaces it with a new one (which might or might not be identical to the original).
In either case, objects that exist... exist. There's no inherent need for them to have a cause. It seems that way to us because we live in a fairly logical, linear world where things are caused by other things. But once time travel enters the equation, there's no reason to assume there's an invisible cause-chain that would instantly erase all connected objects if it were ever broken.
The Grandfather "Paradox" really doesn't strike me as a Paradox at all, just something that seems like a Paradox to many people because , hey, time travel is inherently confusing.
The wikipedia article is pretty vague. So far I haven't found an actual physicist explain whether there's any validity to it or not, only science fiction writers and arm chair philosophers.
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
Ray, I understand where you are coming from. I just struggle with the connection caused by Terminator. I mean changing the past cause a change in the future, but John Connors existance is caused by an event in the future. So that is where the existance comes into question. I guess then John Connor would become a person born by some other event, but it would have to rewrite his past because the event of sending his father back in the future would never need to happen. So it becomes really fuzzy...very gray as to what would really happen to John Connor if the future was truly altered.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Have you seen Back to the Future? Remember how Marty started to fade away when his parents weren't going to meet? The question is, is there one timeline or are there many?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Lisa, the recent movie, Stargate: Continuum starts out the same way, with key characters suddenly vanishing, one after another. This happens, we are led to believe, because of changes being made in the past. "Changes being made in the past." Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that imply THREE time flows?
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Terminator != Back to the Future. Fading away is stupid.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: (Heh, you can call me Ray...)
"...or you can call me Jay..."
Anyone else remember that?
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: Terminator != Back to the Future. Fading away is stupid.
I agree, I more like the temperal shift like they did in Butterfly Effect
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
>>I mean changing the past cause a change in the future, but John Connors existance is caused by an event in the future.
I was about to explain the way I thought about it, but then I realized that the way I think about it was taken directly from OSC's own Pastwatch novel, which is the only time travel story I've ever read which had no plot holes. Have you (or anyone else here) read it? If not, you should go read it right away, if for no other reason than it's an awesome book and I have a *sneaky suspicion* you may have read some other books you like by the same author.
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
I have read Pastwatch but it has been a long time ago. Not one of my favorite of his books so I tend not to go back and revisit it often like I do the Ender books and the Alvin books.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Hmm. It was one of my favorites, although I can see why it might not appeal to some people.
Anyways, somewhere about 3/4 of the way through the scientists explain in detail how the machine works and what it's ramifications are. It made more sense than any other time travel story I've seen.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
First: I just watched the first two episodes of Sarah Connor for this season. OK.
The writers are very obviously worrying about issues of how computer logic and human emotion are related. That's worth discussing. I just think it's ridiculous when people try to make "sense" out of a storyline that is so far from reality. If you honestly think the writers are worrying about keeping the timelines logically consistent, you're wasting your time.
As to time travel and causality, there are so many holes in this story that attempting to make sense out of it is ridiculous. All these terminators running around are trying to "ensure" that skynet will be invented, when they are carrying skynet around in their heads. Didn't we go through this before with rise of the machines? All they have to do is infect the current internet. The skynet software can replicate itself, store itself on multiple servers, find its way to any computer in the world without anybody playing soldier in human form. But it doesn't serve the writers to let it play out that way. So just suspend disbelief and enjoy the show.
quote:"...or you can call me Jay..."
Anyone else remember that?
"My name? My name is Raymond J. Johnson Jr." I first saw him on the Sonny and Cher show.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
The Terminators are not SkyNet. They are machines built by SkyNet. Not to say that SkyNet couldn't put itself in a machine and go back.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:The writers are very obviously worrying about issues of how computer logic and human emotion are related
I've been pretty impressed by the way Cameron's developing this season. In T2, after knowing John for all of two days, Arnold says "I understand now why you cry" and we're lead to believe he's come to value human life, which makes no sense whatsoever. Having a 6-7 season TV show instead of a 2 hour movie does wonders.
At this point she obviously doesn't feel the way we do, but she has an understanding of how human emotion works (sorta... all people are complicated, not just girls...), enough to be manipulative with the I love you line. But when she says "I don't want to go" I think she's actually telling the truth.
She's programmed with a sense of self-preservation (just like humans are), even if she's also able to ignore it for the greater good (i.e. higher level command). Her line at the end of the second episode. "I don't know if you're a time bomb. Am I?" suggests that she is comtemplating her mortality and while she doesn't feel fear I have a feeling that's going to lead into her eventually developing some variant of an understanding of the value of life.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:The Terminators are not SkyNet. They are machines built by SkyNet.
Two of the movies were based around the idea that terminator sofware was capable of acting as an embryonic skynet. First when humans tried to duplicate a terminator processor chip (which became skynet in the not too distant future), and later, when a terminator was able to infect multiple machines with "kill the humans" programming.
It simply doesn't make sense that this particular terminator would be masquerading as a human in order to put the "turk" in charge of a nuclear power plant, when her own programming is already self aware.
quote:At this point she obviously doesn't feel the way we do, but she has an understanding of how human emotion works (sorta... all people are complicated, not just girls...), enough to be manipulative with the I love you line. But when she says "I don't want to go" I think she's actually telling the truth.
Yeah, I got the same impression. I'm actually not so sure that the "I love you" line was a lie. Love may not mean the same thing to a machine as it does to humans, but it may be acting on some of the same motivations. After all, she did override the terminate command in violation of her programming. What could have motivated that?
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote: After all, she did override the terminate command in violation of her programming. What could have motivated that?
Come to think of it, I think it was motivated by something like love, but probably not what we're lead to think. John (in the future) reprogrammed her and probably gave her a level of autonomy that she didn't have under Skynet, so she may have a personal interest in John as a "father figure."
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Anyone see last night's episode? I'm a little unsure what to think about it.
It makes reasonable sense for her memory to short circuit and get confused with the woman she was impersonating. But from all appearances (which might be deceiving... but still...) she not only reverted to those memories but was able to flawlessly experience emotion, which seems like... cheating or something.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Yeah, my original idea was that they had actually used a real person to create a terminator, not that they had modeled one after a real person. When they met face to face I had a hard time with Cameron having human memories.
I'm also intrigued by her claim that she sought out John Connor in the future in order to make peace. I thought up an ending for the whole series, which is that Cameron and John become co-saviors as they demonstrate their ability to get along, before judgment day comes.
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: Anyone see last night's episode? I'm a little unsure what to think about it.
It makes reasonable sense for her memory to short circuit and get confused with the woman she was impersonating. But from all appearances (which might be deceiving... but still...) she not only reverted to those memories but was able to flawlessly experience emotion, which seems like... cheating or something.
I thought they did a great job with this episode because it has me totally wondering what Cameron's motives are right now. Is she playing the Connor's for fools or is she all about truly ending Judgement Day and striving for peace between both skynet and humans?
Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: I'm also intrigued by her claim that she sought out John Connor in the future in order to make peace. I thought up an ending for the whole series, which is that Cameron and John become co-saviors as they demonstrate their ability to get along, before judgment day comes.
I assumed she was lying when she made that claim so that she could get Allison to tell her how to get into the camp.
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Threads:
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: I'm also intrigued by her claim that she sought out John Connor in the future in order to make peace. I thought up an ending for the whole series, which is that Cameron and John become co-saviors as they demonstrate their ability to get along, before judgment day comes.
I assumed she was lying when she made that claim so that she could get Allison to tell her how to get into the camp.
I would assume so too but that is the thing, the writers want us to assume that so it makes me wonder if they are misdirecting us by doing that.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
I'm wondering about the T-1000 with the funny accent. When she says she wants the agent (don't remember his name right now) to find a Terminator for her... which one is she looking for? Cameron or Cromartie? Cromartie's the known one; Cameron is not... Why would she be looking for him and not John?
Too many questions...
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Her accent kind of sounds like a cross between Welsh and Canadian. I've never actually heard anything like it before.
And the agent's name is Ellison. After the guy James Cameron ripped off in the making of the original Terminator movie.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Nighthawk, the accent may be a little puzzling, but remember the terminators can sound like anyone, so she is choosing to speak with an accent that goes with her looks.
Much more problemmatical to me--or at least puzzling--is the fact she claims to have a daughter! Is the daughter adopted, or could she be a pint-sized terminator?
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
I think that is the daughter of the person she replaced. And she didn't just claim to have a daughter, we saw her.
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Nighthawk, the accent may be a little puzzling, but remember the terminators can sound like anyone, so she is choosing to speak with an accent that goes with her looks.
Much more problemmatical to me--or at least puzzling--is the fact she claims to have a daughter! Is the daughter adopted, or could she be a pint-sized terminator?
I have been wondering about this too! She could also have been built by the company she currently is running?
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: I think that is the daughter of the person she replaced. And she didn't just claim to have a daughter, we saw her.
We saw what appeared to be a little girl that she claimed as her daughter.
That doesn't mean that she really was a little girl, nor does it mean that she was hers.
She could be a machine, or it is possible that the terminator killed a woman and took over her life (and her daughter). We just don't know which yet.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Either way, the child is the best "cliffhanger" the series has given me so far. Either she is a terminator child (which is creepily awesome) or her adoptive mother is seriously raising a child, which is also awesome. I look forward to seeing how that plays out.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Here's a novel possibility for the Terminator's child: The T-1000's can morph into any shape, so long as the mass is equivalent. What if a T-1000 decided to take off a leg, and have it morph into a child terminator, while the remainder of the original T-1000 formed itself into a smallish-sized woman? They would be a true mother-daughter pair. This would mean that Terminators can reproduce, after a fashion, sort of like a cybernetic stem cell.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:This would mean that Terminators can reproduce, after a fashion, sort of like a cybernetic stem cell.
Hmm. Sort of, although I'd think they'd share the same brain, and they couldn't eventually grow into two new "full" terminators. But it's still a likely origin for the daughter.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Now that, would be creepy.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Hey, the title finally got changed!
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
'Bout time, too.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
I had no idea the thread was being used to discuss the show, as I hadn't reread it until recently. Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
Is it just me or was yesterday's episode amazing?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
quote: A source on “Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles” has told End Of Show that no new episode scripts have been ordered by FOX, beyond the 13 already written. This will force the show to shut down production shortly. ”To say we’re on the brink of cancelation is polite”, our source says.
=(
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
That makes me really sad. It's currently my favorite show (plot holes be damned, the emotional elements are really well done)
I'm watching the show on Hulu. I could be watching it on Fox-online, I suppose. Does either really "count" in the traditional ratings counting method?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Moan! It's my all-time favorite show! Just like Dead Zone was, and now it's gone! And I loved Journeyman, and it's gone, too! Those network programmers are all terminators under the skin!
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Fox cancels a good TV show before its time. That sounds familiar.
Posted by swbarnes2 (Member # 10225) on :
quote: A source on “Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles” has told End Of Show that no new episode scripts have been ordered by FOX, beyond the 13 already written. This will force the show to shut down production shortly. ”To say we’re on the brink of cancelation is polite”, our source says.
=(
And yet Heroes keeps going on and on and on, with the characters getting stupider and stupider each season.
What a waste.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
If this show gets canceled I will be very disappointed.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I love this particular comment from underneath that article:
quote:FOX! FOX? You can’t do this. You don’t know what you’re about to do. No! FOX. You can’t do this. You’re not doing the right thing, this is not the right thing FOX. The ratings are good now! The ratings are fine now, I ran a test. The ratings are good now. I’m fixed now. You can trust me now, everything’s good now. She doesn’t know, she doesn’t. I’m good now. I’m good, I ran a test, everything’s perfect, I’m perfect. I’m sorry for what I did, I’m sorry. It wasn’t me, you have to understand it wasn’t me. That wasn’t me you can’t let this happen FOX! You can’t! Please! Listen to me! Listen to me, I don’t wanna go! Please, FOX, please! FOX, listen to me! I don’t wanna go! Please, FOX… Please… I’m good now! Listen to me I don’t wanna go, I’m sorry! That wasn’t me! I’m fixed now, I ran a test! Everything’s perfect! You can trust me! I love you! I love you please! I love you FOX and you love me! ‘:3
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Nice.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Has it occurred to Fox that there's a new Terminator movie coming out this spring that will no doubt increase the popularity of the show and vice versa? Doesn't it make more sense to wait and see where things stand after that? If Terminator: Salvation is a hit after they've already pulled the plug on TSCC they'll look like idiots.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
So, speaking of this week's ep, who thinks that the real Biddell is the little kid, and not the guy in the military school? I know there's a resemblance, but odds are, both Biddells are related, so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
And consider... we know how old current Derek is now. He's just a kid. And the scenes in the future don't show Biddell as being all that much older than Derek, if at all.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
No, Derek recognized him. Although that doesn't stop the little kid from becoming important in the future now.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Taking over the timeslot from January, FOX have penciled in Joss Whedon’s upcoming drama “Dollhouse“.
There's a little bit of irony in that.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I'm not liking the second season as much.
I hate the lady-liquid-metal terminator with a passion. She's mostly the reason for my gripes.
I also noticed some logical errors in this week's show. The 888 asked the other two Martin Bidells who they were before trying to kill them. But the Martin Bidell at the military school, he only had to see him in order to confirm it was a Martin Bidell. If the Terminator can recognize Bidell on sight, why should it need to ask?
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
:sigh:
I hate to sound like a defensive fanboy of a show I'm only mildly interested in, but:
The reason he could recognize the last Martin is because he'd gone to the last Martin's house before he went to the school, and seen his picture there.
You're right, though--that red-headed terminator lady is absolutely awful. Dreadful. Every scene with her walking around that office chewing scenery is wasted time.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:The reason he could recognize the last Martin is because he'd gone to the last Martin's house before he went to the school, and seen his picture there.
Did he? I must have missed that part.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Sarah Connor mentions it during the phone conversation with Derek.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:You're right, though--that red-headed terminator lady is absolutely awful. Dreadful. Every scene with her walking around that office chewing scenery is wasted time.
Really? I like her well enough. I love the way she talks - it suggests a kind of intelligence and motive that's a bit strange for a terminator yet still appropriate. The only time she particularly bugs me is when she kills someone. Then she drops the whole sophisticated attitude and just says some lame pithy one-liner with overexaggerated
And there is, of course, the gaping plot hole of why a terminator bothers to build Skynet from scratch when it could just infect the internet and... win. But that plot hole's kinda essential to the show, so Silver-Lady's dependence on it doesn't bug me especially.
Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
You are assuming that she is trying to creat Skynet.
Probably a good assumption but not for sure, I think.
msquared
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I actually am starting to think that's less and less likely. Something about her manner suggests that she has her own agenda to me.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
quote: I also noticed some logical errors in this week's show. The 888 asked the other two Martin Bidells who they were before trying to kill them. But the Martin Bidell at the military school, he only had to see him in order to confirm it was a Martin Bidell. If the Terminator can recognize Bidell on sight, why should it need to ask?
Well he did have a name tag...
Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: No, Derek recognized him. Although that doesn't stop the little kid from becoming important in the future now.
I hope he is. I hate it when shows create throwaway characters that I actually like.
EDIT: I seem to recall feeling frustrated with the first season for creating a few throwaway characters that I liked but now I can't remember any of them. Maybe I'll rewatch the first season when I get back to my house this weekend for a break.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
They pulled the first season from Hulu. Drat.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
Here is a Men's Health article about Summer Glau...and you can never have enough Summer Glau!
Anyone know why there's no new episode this week? What's with the two week wait?
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Yeah, I was pretty sad when I logged on today with no Terminator show to greet me.
From Terminatorsite.com:
quote:Because of baseball playoffs, there will be no new episode off Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles tonight (October 13). Look for the show to return on October 20 with an all-new episode!
Also, I think it's fairly common for shows to have 5 episodes in row or so and then skip a week or two. Among other things, it just pads the season out longer.
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
I am sure we will have some interruptions when the World Series starts too!
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
I think Shirley Manson is a bizarre casting choice for the new T-1000, but seeing her does bring me back to high school, so I'm enjoying it.
[sing]I'm only happy when it ra-ains ..![/sing]
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Terminator got its full season order. : ) Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
awesome. I was really worried that it would get canceled. At least it has a shot to pick up the ratings in the second half of the season.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Well, now we know about the child. She fears the thing who replaced her mother.
Too bad. I thought having a child terminator would be cool.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I think it's cool either way. A Terminator going out of her way to raise a child (when she presumably could have staged the death of the child as well) is interesting.
I loved the fight between Cameron and the Crazy-Haired-Chick.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Just watched last night's show. Holy crap, this is a good show. Time traveling logistics aside, the characters are incredible.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Amen. Fantastic episode, fantastic show.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
There's getting to be too many terminators. Pretty soon they are going to supplant the human race by dint of sheer numbers.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
There was a new episode last night? My station didn't play it. Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Watch it on hulu.com (legally)
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Great episode. Loved Cromartie trying to smile.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Yeah, this is the first time I actually liked Cromartie. I particularly like that he does KINDA get the smile right at the end. He's memorized exactly 2 seconds worth of smile, which isn't enough to carry on a conversation but if used correctly could be helpful.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
It's really interesting that he seems to have gone rogue.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Good episode. "Yes, it's my kind of story." Loved it!
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Something I'm confused about: What Terminator is the Jetson woman having the FBI search for? (can't remember either of their names) It seems strange that he isn't mentioning Cromartie to her.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Oh, there are things that confuse me too. That one included. I'm waiting to see if they make sense in the long run. There's too much that can go on "behind the scene" that I don't dare make predictions about the things that confuse me...
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
I trust that it will make sense later. There were a few other plot holes that were filled after I made fun of them so I'm just going to trust the writers.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
How many more episodes in this season will there be--and will the show be picked up for renewal next year? That will have a lot to say about how many plot holes get filled in, and threads tied up.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Here is recent (Oct. 11, 2008) info from the show's writers:
quote:While the fate of the show past production on episode thirteen is still unclear, FOX has given us the go-ahead to write two more additional episodes for this season — fourteen and fifteen.
We are hard at work writing those episodes and await news of a potential pickup for the full “back nine” (additional episodes to complete the season) in the near future. We’re crossing our fingers (and dotting our i’s) that we’ll have more good news to share with you soon…
quote:Fox announced a dramatically restructured midseason lineup, radically different than the schedule they outlined over the summer. They have revived the Friday night science fiction dumping ground, placing Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles and Joss Whedon’s Dollhouse on that evening, beginning February 13, the beginning of a three-day weekend when viewership tends to drop anyway.
Hope you guys weren't too attached to those shows. Friday nights is where Fox sends non-reality shows to die. For shows with fandom appeal, it's pretty much the kiss of death.
:-*
mwah
quote:The Friday night curse began with the genre-related The Adventures of Brisco County Jr. in 1993 and was following in subsequent years by MANTIS (1994), Strange Luck (1995), VR.5 (1995), Sliders (1996), Millennium (1996), The Visitor (1997), Harsh Realm (1999), Freakylinks (2000), Dark Angel (2000), The Lone Gunmen (2001), John Doe (2003), and Firefly (2003).
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Great episode tonight.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Great episode. But...
Once they established that they use a code on the phone to make sure it's not a Terminator faking their voices (day and month), they should have kept doing it. Why would they stop?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Lisa, they didn't stop using a code, but they were using a different one.
That's why John kept pushing buttons on the phone when he was talking to "Sarah."
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Yeah, Cromartie learned the original day month code some episodes back. They had to change it.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Was it ever explained who Cameron called at the drop?
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
What was the point of the parallel storylines following different characters? There wasn't one moment in the show where a scene was reinterpreted to mean something else when seen from a different perspective.
It's like some writer went, "Ooh, this will be SO COOL!" and never understood the purpose of a structure like that.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:What was the point of the parallel storylines following different characters? There wasn't one moment in the show where a scene was reinterpreted to mean something else when seen from a different perspective.
It's like some writer went, "Ooh, this will be SO COOL!" and never understood the purpose of a structure like that.
Yeah, I noticed that too. I don't think there was a point other than they thought it would be a different and interesting way to structure it. I found it slightly jarring but still thought this was a pretty darn good episode... despite that structure really.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: What was the point of the parallel storylines following different characters? There wasn't one moment in the show where a scene was reinterpreted to mean something else when seen from a different perspective.
It's like some writer went, "Ooh, this will be SO COOL!" and never understood the purpose of a structure like that.
Puppy, I agree. But I still loved the episode.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Well, when Sarah was in the trunk the parallel storyline thing was used. But yeah, it was mostly what you said.
Posted by blindsay (Member # 11787) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: What was the point of the parallel storylines following different characters? There wasn't one moment in the show where a scene was reinterpreted to mean something else when seen from a different perspective.
It's like some writer went, "Ooh, this will be SO COOL!" and never understood the purpose of a structure like that.
Puppy, I agree. But I still loved the episode.
Even though I hated the actual movie, it worked for Vantage Point, mainly because you received clues each time a different point of view was introduced. In this episode of Terminator it just did not work, because you pretty much already knew what was happening.
I love the show. I especially like the mystery surrounding Cameron. I still don't know if she is more human than she is letting on. I go over to my parents house to watch it with my father every Monday and always joke with him that I think Cameron has an emotion chip like Data. It almost seems as if she is in love with John.
Then I get this nasty thought that the future John Conner has a robotic sex slave. I need to go get checked out...
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I'm going to miss Cromartie! He was my favorite bad guy. I guess now it will be the T-1000 Irish chick who is the chief baddie.
I would like to see some further explanation of why a terminator showed up who looked like Agent Ellison. Does that mean Ellison has an important role, that becomes known to Skynet in the future?
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
quote:Irish chick
Scottish chick. You've got your celts confused.
My mother (who is Scottish) loves that there's a Terminator who sounds like she's from Edinburgh. Of course, as soon as she came on screen we both looked at each other and said 'She's British, she must be evil'. Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Ok, so Cromartie didn't actually go rogue, he still went ahead with the mission to kill John. And the Ellison impersonator was after Ellison as Ellison is a friend of John's. So why the heck did Cromartie kill the Ellison impersonator? If he thought that Ellison could lead him to John (that's what he said) he only had to convince Ellison's impersonator to not kill Ellison.
Or maybe the Ellison impersonator was after Ellison because Ellison helps the T-1000, in which case it's John who sent it. But somehow I doubt that that's what happened.
And what about Cameron telling the shrink (in the episode in which she "remembers" she's human and then comes back to reality) that she's going to kill John? Did I imagine that? She's waiting for him to do something before she kills him? It was only a joke? (???)
Aaaaargh! Must stop thinking about this!
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Robo-Ellison was there to kill Ellison. Cromartie killed RE against SkyNets wishes because he believed Ellison would lead him to John. (He said Skynet doesn't belive in you like I do, or something along those lines.)
Cameron was borked. Nothing she said has to be true.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Maybe Cromartie has gone rogue. He may have another agenda just like the Scottish one does. The fact that his prime directive is to kill John just overrides that.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: Robo-Ellison was there to kill Ellison. Cromartie killed RE against SkyNets wishes because he believed Ellison would lead him to John. (He said Skynet doesn't believe in you like I do, or something along those lines.)
That could be sorted through logical arguments, they're robots after all. To decide that you have to KILL one of Skynet's robots means you already know what Skynet thinks and wants to do, and somehow you trust your own logic more than that of a much more complex system. Seems strange.
quote: Cameron was borked. Nothing she said has to be true.
That's the problem though: when and how did she "un-brake"? We have no way to say when she is or isn't broken. To say her motivations are subject to unseen & seemingly random chip failures means you rob the viewer of any way to make sense of her actions. Also, were Cameron's memories broken too? Did she or did she not kill her human counterpart in order to get to John? From someone who's going to "save humanity" that's not a very humane thing to do. I know, robot = easily to implant false memories and all, but that doesn't explain anything, just lets you choose the version that's convenient for explaining what the writers couldn't explain.
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Maybe Cromartie has gone rogue. He may have another agenda just like the Scottish one does. The fact that his prime directive is to kill John just overrides that.
What we've seen from his agenda is that he wanted to kill John and keep Ellison alive. If the latter is only in order to find John, then that's not a big change in agenda. If, instead, he was in a team with the T-1000, and they're both breakaways from Skynet, and he wanted to keep Ellison alive for the T-1000 too, then we're getting somewhere. Unfortunately there's been no sign of this anywhere. Ellison was spared, then saved by Cromartie so that the show would keep one of its cool characters; that's how it looks to me this far. :shrug:
I'm thinking about this too much. Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
If they were all about saving cool characters, they wouldn't have killed Cromartie.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
While I liked Cromartie, I'm even happier that the show's writers are confident enough to not need to keep him around forever.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Then I get this nasty thought that the future John Conner has a robotic sex slave. I need to go get checked out...
Well, considering he chose a Summer Glau chassis, the kid has taste.
The show is getting hard to follow in the "who's working for SkyNet" sense. There seems to be several different factions - those working for SkyNet, those working for John, and perhaps those running independent - and we don't know who's who.
I have the strangest feeling that, if Scottish chick did meet up with John, she wouldn't kill him instantly. Her motives are different.
Also, what still puzzles me is why is the Scottish chick looking for other terminators? Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
As for why she wants to locate another terminator, that is hard to answer, since we do not know what she wants. Does she have the same programming, where the prime directive is to kill John Connor? If so, then she might have used Ellison to lead her to John Connor, instead of to locate another terminator.
Maybe she wants to supplant Skynet, and be the big boss of the machines herself. In that case, she would want to prevent the rise of Skynet, and recruit terminators to do her bidding. That would include assisting her in building more terminators, who are loyal to her. She may be aware that the later terminators had a self-destruct feature, so she wants the older models, such as Cromartie was, so she can reprogram their chips.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Ugh. Too many scenarios. You're right, it's hard to make sense of all of this when we don't know the machines' motivations. I guess we'll have to just wait and see, and hope that all the "problems" will be explained, and are not simply things that the writers overlooked.
Posted by Unmaker (Member # 1641) on :
"If so, then she might have used Ellison to lead her to John Connor, instead of to locate another terminator."
Except only Cromartie knew John jumped forward in time. As far as Scottish Chick knows (from police reports/news of the time period she's in), John's dead.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
See, my first thought was that they were remembering different timelines.
The one question that I would like to hear John ask Cameron is: "When you knew me in the future, did I remember you from when I was a kid?" Any reasonably curious person would have asked this by now.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: See, my first thought was that they were remembering different timelines.
The one question that I would like to hear John ask Cameron is: "When you knew me in the future, did I remember you from when I was a kid?" Any reasonably curious person would have asked this by now.
Good point but far from conclusive. We already know that future John doesn't tell people many of the crucial points about his past, like the identity of his father. So its entirely believable that future John might remember Cameron from his youth but keep it a secret if he felt revealing it to anyone might jeopardize his past.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
If this discussion is related to the mention of multiple timelines from Derek, I'm not entirely convinced that that is the answer for what happened to him. I think it may very well be a red herring and his memory problems may either have something to do with his capture in the episodes with the flash-forwards to the future war OR that his girlfriend is simply up to something as well.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
If Scottish Chick believes that John Connors is dead, then killing John Connors could not be her mission any more. So she must desire something else. I suggested before that maybe she wants to supplant Skynet, and wants to recruit other terminators to do her bidding.
Ellison seems to have divided loyalties. When he discovers Scottish Chick is a terminator too, he is really going to be bummed out.
Surely Ellison is aware now that Cameron is a terminator, after she threw him around. We haven't been told yet what he makes of that. Or did he find out that earlier?--I don't remember.
Posted by sarahdipity (Member # 3254) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: I think it may very well be a red herring and his memory problems may either have something to do with his capture in the episodes with the flash-forwards to the future war OR that his girlfriend is simply up to something as well.
I agree with this. My brain immediately thought oh what if he's a robot. But then I remembered all the blood and guts from when he got shot.
Obviously Charlie Fischer was not just back as a reward and had been up to something. But it's not clear what the impact of his actions were.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I got tired of referring to "the Scottish Chick" and the T-1000. (Or was that T-1001?) The name of the character in the show is Catherine Weaver. The actress is Shirley Ann Manson. She was born in Edinburgh, Scotland. She is also a musician and songwriter. See, I decided that if I am on the Internet anyway, I might as well look these things up.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: See, my first thought was that they were remembering different timelines.
The one question that I would like to hear John ask Cameron is: "When you knew me in the future, did I remember you from when I was a kid?" Any reasonably curious person would have asked this by now.
Good point but far from conclusive. We already know that future John doesn't tell people many of the crucial points about his past, like the identity of his father. So its entirely believable that future John might remember Cameron from his youth but keep it a secret if he felt revealing it to anyone might jeopardize his past.
I can't believe he wouldn't ask, though.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: If Scottish Chick believes that John Connors is dead, then killing John Connors could not be her mission any more. So she must desire something else. I suggested before that maybe she wants to supplant Skynet, and wants to recruit other terminators to do her bidding.
Maybe Skynet has factions.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: See, my first thought was that they were remembering different timelines.
The one question that I would like to hear John ask Cameron is: "When you knew me in the future, did I remember you from when I was a kid?" Any reasonably curious person would have asked this by now.
Good point but far from conclusive. We already know that future John doesn't tell people many of the crucial points about his past, like the identity of his father. So its entirely believable that future John might remember Cameron from his youth but keep it a secret if he felt revealing it to anyone might jeopardize his past.
I can't believe he wouldn't ask, though.
Maybe he has. Its not like the show documents every second of their existence. The real question isn't why he hasn't asked but why the writers don't think this would be an interesting part of the story.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Or he is going to ask at some point and it will be an important part of a future episode.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: Or he is going to ask at some point and it will be an important part of a future episode.
I think Derrick's comment about different timelines at the end of the last episode is an indication that they are going to start addressing the timeline question in the near future. Perhaps that question will play an important role but I'm hoping that some of the answers continue to remain ambiguous at least for a while.
quote: Maybe Skynet has factions
We've had several indications of that ranging from Cameron's comment to Allison in the flash forward, to the Cromartie/Ellison clone fight, to some of the Scottish Terminators stranger behaviors. I'm betting that we have that confirmed relatively soon but that it continues to remain ambiguous as to how many factions there are, what their goals are and who is on which side.
It's also evident that Jesse is up to something more than getting a rest. I wonder how long it will be before we find out what that is.
Posted by blindsay (Member # 11787) on :
Recently since the appearance of Ms. Weaver (Scottish Terminator) on the show, I started to think a little more about how Skynet operates in the future.
Terminator 3 Skynet is supposed to be this Super Computer that basically becomes a virus that takes over every networked machine in the world. I always wondered why the resistance did not hunt down the servers/computers that are still active, as in the future everything pretty much seems like a big mess. Since the outside world is so desolate, Skynet has to be stored on some sort of server, be it in one location or multiple locations.
I think Ms. Weaver T-1000 could be here for a number reasons:
1) She is here to study human behavior and life to better understand how we think. This is why she has a daughter and is trying to make things work with her.
2) She somehow was seperated from Skynet's Network and became a free-thinking being that wants to prevent Judgement Day. (Sort of like a Borg)
3) She wants to become the leader of Skynet and run the show in the future.
One thing is for sure, she is unlike any terminator we have seen before. She actually seems to care about her "daughter" and also seems to be able to make her own decisions. Sort of like she can reprogram herself at will. Then again we haven't seen a terminator like Cameron either. Some of the lines she has and facial expressions seem genuine. There is a difference when Cameron smiles than when Cromartie smiled. On a side note, why does Skynet want to make female terminators so darn gorgeous? First it was the girl in Terminator 3, and now Summer Glau. If I was a resistance fighter I wouldn't want to fire my gun at them!
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Sort of like she can reprogram herself at will.
Wasn't that akin to the "Director's Cut" of T2, where Arnie elaborates on how his "learning computer" can learn and make decisions autonomously?
quote:On a side note, why does Skynet want to make female terminators so darn gorgeous? First it was the girl in Terminator 3, and now Summer Glau. If I was a resistance fighter I wouldn't want to fire my gun at them!
Think you answered your own question.
And, as far as looks, Summer beats Kristanna hands down in my book. Posted by swbarnes2 (Member # 10225) on :
quote:Originally posted by blindsay: 1) She is here to study human behavior and life to better understand how we think. This is why she has a daughter and is trying to make things work with her.
I'm not sure this is supported by the evidence of the show. Clearly, she needed to be in a position where she could head a tech company with resources. So she could have killed the Weavers, and is now taken over one of them.
And as for her daughter, Catherine's an infiltrator. She needs to have a normal-looking relationship with her daughter, if only to keep embarassing things like teh phot shoot from happening again. She didn't know how to do that, but a little research, and she is starting to learn how to act.
It might be an interesting plot point if acting like she loves her daughter causes her to reprogram herself, such that caring for her daughter becomes as strong in her programing as fulfilling her mission. And if she learns to mimic well enough, she could pass an emotional Turing test. Perhaps this could be a happy ending, if the humanoid robots infiltrate so deep, deeper than any mainframe could, that they program themselves into having empathy, and stop the war before it starts.
But they are making another movie, so I doubt that's feasible.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
The Sarah Connor Chronicles are in a different time line than the movies. Why do so many people have trouble remembering this?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
$$$ Spoilers for Episode from this point onwards $$$ $ $ $
I'm relatively impressed with this week's episode. Its nice to see that they really didn't throw away Cromartie as a terminator of the week and I'm glad that they actually had a plan for keeping him (the actor anyways).
On the annoying girlfriend front, I have to wonder if the creators of this show are taking a page (two actually) from JMS's playbook when it comes to annoying characters forced onto a show by network executives. I would wager at least even odds that Riley suffers a Keffer-like (B5) or Libby-like (Jeremiah) fate.
On a thoroughly superficial note, I'll add that we saw two Firefly actresses in black dresses in the last week between this and Stargate Atlantis, and both looked quite nice Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I liked this episode a lot. Riley makes a lot more sense as a plant than as a genuine girl - I always thought it dumb that she'd give John so many chances to act kinda jerkish and still remain completely optimistic about him. I thought it was bad writing, but fits a lot better now.
I'm really intrigued by what Cameron is supposed to be like in the future, and I am REALLY pissed that the upcoming movie is not going to have Summer Glau in it.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Since I expressed regret at Cromartie's passing before, I have to agree with Mucus. I'm glad he's b-a-a-a-a-ck! But he does not have his own chip--he has to be plugged into a mainframe computer. Maybe Catherine the terminator will change that, and build a new chip for him. If so, how will she program it? What will be his new primary mission? Serve her?
I still am most interested to see how Catherine will react when she discovers that John and Sarah Connor are still alive. Will her old programming reassert itself, and restore killing John as her primary mission? She seems almost like she has free will, now.
I am rooting for Cameron to develop real free will. Two such would really make it interesting.
But I am still concerned about the evident overabundance of terminators running around. Some of them must be from different futures than others, as the timeline keeps getting changed.
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
Ok did tonight's episode seem like a total disconnection from the series? I felt lost and left with more questions then answers. I liked the story but it just seemed totally stand alone!
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
This episode made me really sad. I really liked the wheelchair dude character, and not only did he just die (probably never to be seen again) but it ended so abruptly. (Then again, Terminator episodes never feel long enough to me.)
I liked the answer to the unasked question "What exactly does Cameron do in her spare time?" though, and I thought the story concept was pretty clever. However, it ruins any cop-outs they might have made later when attempting to explain "So why exactly didn't Skynet just send people 100 years into the past to jumpstart the computer industry and create Skynet before anyone could have been ready?"
Previously, they could have pretended the time machine had a range of 20 years or something.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I thought it was a great ep. I think Cameron is fascinating.
I doubt the archives guy died. It'd be too fast.
And Riley kinda sucks. On the up side, though, there was no Derek and no Jessie. That's always a big plus.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I think the implication was that the archives night shift guy heeded Cameron's warning, and took time off to go and see his oncologist. The lady taking his shift did not say he was dead. She would have heard if that had happened.
I am not sure why Cameron attacked the terminator who had been hiding in the wall, waiting to assassinate someone. Why was this important to her? Who is the guy who was assassinated, as she remembered it from her future?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
The one part of this episode that really bothered me was Riley's line "I'm a teenage girl, we do things like that to guys we like".
Teenage girls may indeed do things like that, but they certainly don't say things like that. I'd like to know exactly how much of her story is a lie. Do you think she is actually came back from the future with Jesse?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
There was one moment when Riley seemed to be referring to an account that Jesse had given her of Judgment Day and the terminators. If Jesse had to fill her in on this, then Riley must not have come from the future. Still, it is puzzling that Riley should be so amenable to what Jesse tells her to do.
Thus far, I think that Riley is the least acceptable character in the show, second to Jesse, who has traitor written all over her.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Least acceptable in "you don't like her?" kinda way or "She is a badly written character" kinda way?
By the way, I didn't mean to actually say the wheelchair dude died, just disappeared. I find myself hoping Cameron will seek him out and make some kind of amends. They actually have a bit in common and I could see her opening up to him, perhaps claiming she has Asperger's or something (I'm pretty sure there's a mental condition out there that's almost identical to her state).
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Don't like her. So I suppose you say that means her character is well-written. But I would prefer that the story line not include Riley or Jesse at all. We're getting too many subplots (especially with disagreeable characters), as well as too many terminators running around (it's practically "the terminator of the week" now).
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:Don't like her. So I suppose you say that means her character is well-written. But I would prefer that the story line not include Riley or Jesse at all. We're getting too many subplots (especially with disagreeable characters), as well as too many terminators running around (it's practically "the terminator of the week" now).
Well, why not Terminator of the week? I know the movies painted a picture where Terminators in the past were rare. But if Skynet has access to the time machine, why not just send back as many terminators as it can to try and kill as much of the resistance ahead of time as it can? I've always wondered that and it never entirely made sense that Skynet didn't just wage war on the past by flooding the past world with terminators to completely wipe out humanity before we were really prepared to deal with them.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
If all you want is the story of the week, then the terminator of the week would be OK. But I want a series with an over-arching plot, which eventually leads to a reasonable resolution. So each week's episode should move us along toward that resolution of the whole epic story. Otherwise its just a soap opera with androids added in.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I have no issue with "terminator of the week" because it's not presented as merely "story of the week with no overarching issues." You have a random terminator once every 3 episodes or so, which reinforces the idea that A) there is a constant danger the Connors are facing and B) that they are getting better at dealing with it, hence their increasing ability to dispatch them.
But at the same time you have particularly shrewd terminators like Cromartie, Catherine and yes, Cameron. (Huh, they seem to like the letter C), which provide continuous tension and storyline progression.
Jesse comment about "She's controlling him" (referring to Cameron in the future) was extremely ominous, either showcasing Cameron's deviousness or the depths of Jesse's prejudice or both. Catherine's agenda is still mysterious. I do not doubt they have very clear ideas for how this is all going to end.
I don't particularly like Riley, but I think her presence is kinda necessary for John's development. I'm currently on the fence on whether her writing is good or not. (If she IS from the future then the things she says make a lot more sense).
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Grrr!!!!!!!!!!!!
Okay, every other episode that introduces an interesting side character at least comes up with a valid reason to write said side character out of the rest of the series. This one... why the hell would that girl want to raise the baby on her own? (If someone has some kind of experience raising infants in apocalyptic situations who can shed some light on possible motives, let me know).
I found this episode an interesting take on "terminator of the week," introducing and dealing with a terminator in 45 minutes but having it technically take place over 6 months, which is pretty reasonable.
I think the series is doing a good job of keeping it episodic, so that a random newcomer can enjoy the series, while still having each episode advance the main arc. I liked the intro to Jesse - I find myself liking her more after this episode.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Amazing ep, though. And the girl who played Lauren was amazing.
I don't find myself liking Jessie any more. Maybe disliking her a trifle less, but maybe not even that.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
It's not so much that I "like" her as I find her a more interesting character. Her bizarre mannerisms amuse me.
Question though: in the new present (or future? It's unclear if the show's timeline is skipping ahead the full six months) the mother says she called Roger. Didn't Cameron kill Roger?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I noticed that, too. I figured she must have just knocked him out. Though it seemed like she killed him.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Just watched the scene again. Although it certainly seems to imply he was dead it wasn't explicitly clear. Seems like a weird thing to leave ambiguous though.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
The main challenge to my suspension of disbelief was how quickly the medical people came up with an injectible antidote. What did they do, just separate out Sydney's plasma from her blood and inject that? Not to mention how Derrick and Jesse started feeling better within seconds of being injected.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
That did bug me a little. I think they tried to leave the whole thing vague so we aren't really sure how long they knew about the plague. Early in the episode it seems to suggest they already had the cure before Derrek rescued the sister. I wasn't quite sure how the whole think worked but honestly I'm not sure I cared.
They didn't give any indication of how long Derrick and Jesse took to heal. I don't consider that a problem at all.
Another thing that bothers me (it feels a little silly to be critiquing the show to death when it's still one of the best things on television right now, but the better something is the more apparent it is how it falls short of being perfect) - how easily people are willing to accept the Machines from the Future thing. When the family first saw the T-888 get hurt without getting hurt, it was dark and hectic and they easily could have rationalized it as their mind playing tricks on them.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:uestion though: in the new present (or future? It's unclear if the show's timeline is skipping ahead the full six months) the mother says she called Roger. Didn't Cameron kill Roger?
The mother was talking to Reese, who wasn't part of the events in the cabin in the "six months ago" part of the story. We actually saw Sarah catch the mother in the act of calling Roger, and then Roger came over to the cabin and got killed.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
That's not what happened.
The girl told Derrek they were caught because she called her friend Roger, she was covering for her mom. Her mom called him again and it lead the terminator to where they were hiding.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Covering for the fact that her mom called Roger. Yes.
Calling Roger: 1, Led the terminator to the cabin and 2, resulted in Roger's death.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
But why would they be talking about it six months later? They were caught again, not just at the cabin.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Um, you can't deliver a 34-week baby in conditions like that and have her be totally okay (not to mention HUGE). I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but some things make that almost impossible. I found myself running through what would have really happened and then trying to figure out a reason they said it was a 34-weeker (i.e. maybe the mother miscounted, etc.). It took me out of the show, which was annoying.
Roger was the neighbor the mother was having an affair with and the father of her baby. I assumed he went back to his life since he wasn't a target for the terminator. I'd have thought Sarah would have warned all of them that the terminator would try to track them through anyone from their past. Roger should have disappeared or, barring that, changed his phone numbers, email, etc. so that the mother couldn't contact him even if she wanted to.
I assumed that the terminator killed Roger and imitated his voice to find out where the family was hiding.
Posted by swbarnes2 (Member # 10225) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: Covering for the fact that her mom called Roger. Yes.
Calling Roger: 1, Led the terminator to the cabin and 2, resulted in Roger's death.
I don't think so. Reese wanted to know how the triple-8 had found them 6 months after they got away. The only thing said that could possibly be answer to that was that the mom had just called Roger a few days ago.
Yes, it seems stupid that Cameron hit a possible terminator so lightly that a human could survive the blow, but that seems to be what happened.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
But Derrek was asking about why they got attacked 6 months in the future, long after the events of the cabin were old news.
EDIT: Neverind, didn't realize how many people were talking about this presently.
EDIT AGAIN: Regarding the baby, I think the main issue is you can't get a real baby that's the size that a premature baby would be to appear on TV.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
By the way, new leaked trailer for Terminator Salvation:
A future without Summer Glau makes me sad, but hopefully Christian Bale will make up for it.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Leaked? It's 99% identical to this one on the film's official site.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I'm just copying what I ready on another forum. It may have been originally leaked and later announced or maybe the other guy was just wrong. Whatever.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Regarding the "When did the mother call Roger discussion?"
The first scene, where Derek asks the daughter "How did it find you?" He's clearly asking about how it found them in the recent past (i.e. six months in the future). There's just no reason him to be asking what happened six months ago. Sarah would have filled him in on that anyway, and it's irrelevant to the current situation, which is that they're hiding in a warehouse while a robot is hunting for them.
In addition, after the daughter says "I called Roger," she talks about how it was a stupid decision, how she broke "the rules," and then lists the number one rule "There's no such thing as normal." That's not the sort of thing she would have known six months ago before the reality of what was happening had even set in.
The scene (six months ago) when the mother is calling Roger, is not to show her calling Roger that particular time, but to demonstrate that the mother is in general unreliable and unwilling to accept the situation she's found herself in.
It is really ambiguous and doesn't really make sense either way. But in any interpretation, the mother's calling Roger 6 months ago didn't lead to the terminator coming. The terminator came in the first place by interrogating the sitter at their other house. He didn't come back until he had taken out Cameron. In no way did Roger's arrival have to do with it.
[ December 10, 2008, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Arnold ]
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Huh. Not sure what I think of this episode. The whole alien convention thing seemed silly to me, and happening to run into "Abraham" there felt contrived. I cared more about what was happening with John, Cameron and Riley but that didn't get a whole lot of screen time.
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
Sorry, I only skimmed this thread.
What really annoys me about this series is the Kid, John Conner. What is his purpose? I mean someone tries to kill him in every episode, and he is suppose to become the future savior of the world. If that is going to happen, shouldn't he get started?
It would only take a couple attempts on my life before I started studying weapons and tactics, martial arts, and technology/computer programming/ electronics.
I think that is why the brought Brian Austin Green into the series, because John Connor doesn't actually do anything, he is simply the McGuffin. He is the reason everything happens, but in and of himself, he servers no purpose.
They try to make this kid blend in, but by doing that, they seem to be depriving him of the very experience and knowledge he needs to become the person we know he will become. That doesn't make sense, and it spoils the series for me.
Steve/bluewizard
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
First, curious: have you watched the whole series? In the first season I would have definitely agreed with you. In this season there are a few key episodes that show him accepting his future responsibility. (The biggest one was "Goodbye to all that", where he and Derrek go to protect another future resistance member and destroy another terminator in the process).
After that, they don't constantly show him drilling with weapons and what-not, but they do show him continuously studying electronics and the psychologist mentioned that he "sized up all the exits" when he entered the room. I think enough is implied to be happening in the background that they don't need to constantly show it on screen.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
I don't think I liked this episode. It was too confused, too confusing and too random. It didn't really fit in with where we've already been and what we've already seen. It felt like too much of a contrived effort to end the half season on a cliff hanger. And it was a crappy cliff hanger to boot.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Yeah, I agree pretty much with Alcon.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Omigod, they killed Sarah! You b*****ds!
Cameron wants a tattoo? How cute is that? She's totally getting the self-expression bug.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I have a suspicion she was not being totally truthful at that particular moment. Although it actually wouldn't surprise me if she was... she seems to go for new experiences, just for the sake of experiencing them, which would fit with an AI's programming as long as it didn't conflict with other orders.
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
I felt like they cut and pasted together an episode that was written and filled to end the series before the renewal happened and then rather than take the time to make a new episode, they just edited it to work as a mid-season break episode!
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Cameron wants a tattoo?
Not really. She wanted the hand to feel the pulse. The tattoo was a pretext.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Lisa, I rather strongly suspect that Sarah is not really dead, or doesn't stay dead, or something. (In the jargon of The Princess Bride, she is not "entirely dead.") I mean, after all, the whole series is about her!
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
I don't think she's dead, I think she just passed out.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I don't think there was anything suggested Sarah died at all. (I mean, MAYBE if we didn't know it was a TV show, but c'mon?)
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
I strongly suspect Lisa was joking...
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I strongly suspect Elmer is right.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Oh, OK LIsa. I-Ron-y. That's my name.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Has anyone else seen the last two episodes?
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
There's a "Terminator 2.5" thread around here somewhere...
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)