The news is reporting that the gunman is in custody.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
Hope Bob and Dana weren't doing any shopping today. I had considered going there today too.
I used to work at that store, about 10 feet from where the shooter would have been. Weird.
Not sure why this story is getting so much press, shootings happen all the time in Omaha, I sure it's just because it was in a nicer area of Omaha and not one of the poor ones.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Glad that you are all okay.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
9 dead, 5 more wounded.
Apparently a 19 year-old suicide who wanted to go out "in style."
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
quote: Not sure why this story is getting so much press, shootings happen all the time in Omaha, I sure it's just because it was in a nicer area of Omaha and not one of the poor ones.
Yeah, but nine?
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
At the time, the headline said "5 wounded", and didn't mention any fatalities at all.
Being on the Red Cross disaster action team, Niki and I got called in to the local chapter. We didn't do anything but sit around for a couple of hours though. There were some Red Cross folks at the scene, but most of us were just there "in case". In case of what, I don't know.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Also I think the reason it is getting more press is because of both the season and the venue of the shooting.
It could have been much worse.
Glad to hear you are all OK.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Oh dear.
I'm glad everyone's safe... but what an awful story.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
The more I read about it in the Omaha newspaper the sadder and sadder this story becomes.
Posted by REDSOXRULE (Member # 11316) on :
First I have to say that I feel very sorry for the families of those killed and or injured... I used to live in Omaha when I was in the Military and parts of where I lived downtown near the hospital sounded like a warzone some nights. Every city has crime even where I live now near Woodstock, NY there was a shooting at a mall 2 years ago where 2 people where killed.
Nebraska has been getting alot of news coverage with firing the head coach now this.... what next?
To me they shouldn't be showing this on the news because it will just give some troubled kids bad ideas... Maybe schools need to do something at an earlier age to prevent this type of violence... Another question... How does a 19 year old get his hands on a SKS assault rifle?
So glad I don't live in that boring state anymore
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by REDSOXRULE: Another question... How does a 19 year old get his hands on a SKS assault rifle?
According to at least one new report by stealing it from his stepfather.
Posted by REDSOXRULE (Member # 11316) on :
Stupid parents leaving weapons available to children... they never heard of a Trigger lock?
Guns do not kill people... people kill people
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
WorldTradeOrganization: if a product is legal within a nation, imports of equivalent products must be allowed. SKS are dirt cheap. NationalRifleAssociation: defeat of the assault weapons ban. Any American adult may purchase an assault weapon. Nixon's solution to the Vietnam Draft: old enough to be drafted, old enough to be an adult.
So any American aged 18 or over can legally own an SKS and other semiautomatic weapons; unless a convicted felon, or officially reported as homicidally insane by a mental health professional. (Lack of an official report is what allowed VirginiaTech) And thanks to the NRA's opposition to any meaningful control over secondary gun sales, anybody under the age of 18 can easily purchase firearms illegally (Columbine, etc)
BTW: Florida police have been already been complaining about the increase in the use of assault weapons and ammunition which can pierce kevlar vests. Which is where the NRA's version of "the right to bear arms" originated, cop-killers: folks who wanted to enforce JimCrow through intimidation of honest police officers after federal troops were pulled out of the South.
[ December 06, 2007, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Welcome to Hatrack RESOX. As you can see, there are a wide variety of opinions here.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
The stupid jerk said he wanted to become famous. We should enact a law forbidding his name ever again to be mentioned in the media. As far as possible, let his whole existence be expunged. Let him be buried in an unmarked grave, in an unknown location, and then pave it over for people to walk on.
By the way, that should be "Niki and ME," not "Niki and I." The word "I" is nominative case, not objective case. Used as the object of the preposition "from," the proper word is the objective case "me." Sorry to be particular about this, but English is my native language.
[ December 06, 2007, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
Posted by REDSOXRULE (Member # 11316) on :
This proves my point about Nebraska... They don not even know proper grammar. I wonder how they can read books. Must be all the corn they have to eat.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
So says the guy who can't spell "socks." Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Well, he did say he'd lived there.
The only thing I have against Nebraska is that I ran out of gas there once because they have marker signs for crappy little towns with no gas station. So I slept the night on the roadside. And I was pregnant. So someone told me there's no Troopers at night.
Several years later, when we drove through nebraska, we managed to get two speeding tickets in one night. But that was near that one big crappy town. I can't remember what it was called. The town sort of in the middle where everything is so expensive?
But we've gotten multiple tickets in New York too. So, you know, nothing personal.
Posted by REDSOXRULE (Member # 11316) on :
hey tom goto www.redsox.com Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
What, you think that just because a bunch of jocks can't spell that it's okay for you, too? Man, with names like Ortiz, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them weren't native English speakers, either.
Posted by REDSOXRULE (Member # 11316) on :
so it sounds like you are a racist hmm.. you need some sensitivity training
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I dunno. You ever been to a sensitivity training? They're all "don't say this" and "don't squeeze that" and "don't put that in writing," and it's just yadda-yadda-yadda to me, y'know?
Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
TomFoolery. tsk tsk.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
It seems like as technology advances, it's only going to put more and more power into the hands of fewer and fewer people until at some point any individual on earth will have the power to destroy the world. Can we possibly survive that? Probably not with society in the form it is today. I don't know.
It seems like we need a lot more knowledge about what causes suicidal and violent destructive tendencies in people. Now that I've read recently about how Lyme (and syphilis, back when it was prevalent) causes aggression and violence, I tend to wonder if there is some parasitic or disease basis behind all such stuff. Wouldn't it be weird if all along much violence was caused by some type of disease? And we've been treating it as a behavioral problem?
Posted by Saephon (Member # 9623) on :
Wouldn't it be weird if all along such violence was caused by some type of bad parenting? And we've been treating it as a violent TV/music problem? >_<
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I thought that we weren't allowed to comment on possible bad parenting. Isn't the rule that we can never know enough to decide anything is bad parenting?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Saephon: Wouldn't it be weird if all along such violence was caused by some type of bad parenting? And we've been treating it as a violent TV/music problem? >_<
It could play a role in it. I wouldn't rule it out. I've read that this kid was in the system. Do most people have any idea how being in the system can effect children? Mostly it's being moved from one home to another on top of abuse, on top of who else knows what. But attachment can play a huge role in things that is often misunderstood. I don't think it's just the television or the music, it's our whole society that is messed up.
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
quote:Originally posted by foundling: TomFoolery. tsk tsk.
More like TomTrollery...
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Tatiana, you have hit on a serious concern. What happens as the power available to the individual becomes greater and greater? Some graphs people have tried to make of this increase show not just a straight-line increase, but an upward curve that eventually reaches asymptotic. Hopefully the Lord will come before then.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I think in a great deal of cases attachment has something to do with it. It's not always the whole picture, but it's a big chunk of the problem. It's not as if in the past in Western society it was any better, but technology has made it worse and better in some ways.
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: It seems like as technology advances, it's only going to put more and more power into the hands of fewer and fewer people until at some point any individual on earth will have the power to destroy the world. Can we possibly survive that? Probably not with society in the form it is today. I don't know.
It seems like we need a lot more knowledge about what causes suicidal and violent destructive tendencies in people. Now that I've read recently about how Lyme (and syphilis, back when it was prevalent) causes aggression and violence, I tend to wonder if there is some parasitic or disease basis behind all such stuff. Wouldn't it be weird if all along much violence was caused by some type of disease? And we've been treating it as a behavioral problem?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Tatiana, I think you are indulging in wishful thinking. Evil is a disease? I'm afraid the problem of evil is much more basic than that. Evil consists of knowingly making wrong choices, supposedly meant to benefit self in some way, regardless of how they may result in harm for others. Evil is the opposite of love, which seeks the good of others above self.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
No, what she's doing is thinking about something from an unusual angle rather than just assuming that her present understanding is correct, period, and dismissing all attmpts to examine it further. Questioning your assumptions is not a bad thing.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Wishful thinking, in my opinion, would be hoping that the Lord will come before it gets too bad instead of constructively addressing the problem.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
He received treatment as a juvenile for ~4years under the Nebraska mental health system after threatening to kill his step-mother with a knife, then released because he was an adult when he turned 18. So causation was more than a bit more complex than bad parenting or simple evil. And you can add RonaldReagan's "mental health initiative" as yet another factor in the crime.
[ December 07, 2007, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
So how much blame belongs to the individual who actually pulled the trigger? I hope all of you will admit he at least deserves some.
There is nothing simple about evil. And it is the worst thing of all to overlook or ignore. No social welfare program, no pill or other medicine, can take the place of what is really needed: a change of heart.
Do you want to know who is really, ultimately the most at fault? All the churches. For failing to carry out their gospel commission. For teaching that the divine Law has been done away with. For denying the Bible doctrine of the Judgment. For going along with false doctrines of science which deny the true brotherhood of man, instead of affirming the true science of Creation by God of the human race. For the failure of faith that leads them to rely exclusively on ostensibly good social welfare programs, instead of actually seeking to introduce them to Christ and the Holy Spirit, Who alone can actually change hearts.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
False doctrines of science? What are you talking about? Religion aside, the system really does need to change. Individual responsibility has a big role in things, but upbringing, being moved from one home to the next, never attaching can really effect how the brain developes. It seriously can.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Ron, you also believe that US soldiers die because God is punishing us for allowing homosexuality in this country, right?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Icarus, don't be stupid. Of course not. Though I would not be so quick to deny an apparent link between homosexuality and AIDS. Even there, I believe it is God who would be supporting those who are trying to find a cure. God merely warned us that there would be natural consequences to indulging in certain practices forbidden in the Bible. That is why He forbade them. For our benefit!
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Dood. You do realize how many non-homosexual people have AIDS? Hemophilliacs come to mind. And what about lesbians? Lesbians probably have the lowest risk for AIDS ever. That's totally illogical. And if that was really the case than why has it taken so long for AIDS to see the light of day? Folks who try to state that AIDS=punishment for homosexuality ANNOY me. AIDS is a disease. Even INFANTS get AIDS. Is that a punishment too? Ridiculous.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
In Ron's defense, I think what he was saying is that he believes God warned us not to have homosexual sex because the risk of disease is higher, not that God sent diseases to homosexuals to punish them for sex He proscribed.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I certainly don't want to dismiss the role of agency in behavior of all kinds, including criminal behavior, but we know that many other factors play a part. Kids with loving homes, kids who are wanted, kids who are well-cared-for with adequate nutrition and wholesome environments do far better overall in keeping the social contract than those who aren't. We know that.
What if disease is one factor in this? We know that neglect and abuse cause a child to develop with different gross brain morphology, for instance, which adapts them for harsh environments. That's been noted. And everybody knows if you raise a dog with cruelty from puppyhood it grows up to be a vicious dog. It turns out that Lyme (which is a spirochete like syphilis) in late stages gets into the brain and does a lot of damage there. One effect of the damage can sometimes be that the parts of the brain responsible for aggression are "shorted out", so to speak, and start going off for little or no reason.
We have a thread on how parasites can change the behavior of their hosts in ways that favor the parasite's survival and propagation. What if aggressive individuals tend to get pushed out or sent away from the group and therefore wander farther spreading the disease? It's speculation but it's an intriguing idea. Syphilis is known from history to cause aggression in the late stages. They think some of the most brutal mass murderers in history had syphilis and it contributed greatly to their brutality.
What I'm saying is that if we want to prevent things like this from happening, understanding all the underlying causes and doing something about them might be a lot more fruitful an approach than simply focusing our revulsion on perpetrators after the fact.
And as for thinking God is going to come and save us from ourselves, my feeling is closer to that of the Scouring of the Shire at the end of Lord of the Rings. "Don't you understand? This is what you've been trained for." I think one of the most important ways we learn here is by figuring out and fixing our own messes. There is no deus ex machina who will take over and tidy up for us. We have to learn how ourselves. We have to muster the will and the knowledge to do it with God's help.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Synesthesia, what I learned concerning the history of AIDS in this country is that the first confirmed case of a person infected with HIV was Haitian refugee in a refugee camp in Florida some 30 years go. The Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta attempted to apply the standard protocol of quarantine. But they were interfered with politically by the "gay lobby," because the infected individual was a homosexual male, and they claimed the quarantine was anti-gay discrimination. If they had not interfered through their ignorant protests, the AIDS epidemic never would have spread throughout America, to infect first and primarily the homosexual community, followed secondarily by the intraveneous drug users, then by the partners of people who "go both ways," and thus throughout the general population. The horse is out of the barn now, of course. But there are lessons that should be learned so history is not repeated unnecessarily.
By most accounts, anywhere from one-fourth to one-half of the population of Africa is now HIV positive. That means that unless a cure is found, within ten years or so, as much as half the population of Africa will die. Why has HIV infection spread so rapidly throughout Africa, compared to the US? Some people, including missionaries I have talked to, believe the reason is the extremely promiscuous lifestyle of most Africans. Again, had Biblical standards been applied to life, a huge population might have been spared. God did not cause this as a punishment or anything else. God tried to prevent it.
[ December 09, 2007, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
My understanding was that the first recorded case of AIDS in this country was a gay flight attendant, back in 1977. I believe I read that in TIME magazine some years ago.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
AIDS is when HIV starts showing symptoms. HIV infection comes first. Medical authorities had learned to detect HIV, early enough that they could have prevented the epidemic, if they had been allowed to act.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"But there are lessons that should be learned so history is not repeated unnecessarily."
Ron, it sounds like you're implying that we should hate gays because of AIDS. You do realize that gay men have contributed quite a bit to culture and science over the last 2000 years or more? They didn't have to spend as much time finding sex partners, so they were able to spend more time on other projects, is my main theory as to why. Regardless, their contributions are disproportionately large compared to their numbers.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:God tried to prevent it.
But, in fairness to God, He didn't try very hard. If He'd tried harder, no doubt He could have.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Actually, if everyone who was HIV positive had used condoms and not shared needles, perhaps we wouldn't have so much of an epidemic on our hands. That includes homosexuals, heterosexuals, and anything-else-sexuals.
It seems to me that safe sex and not sharing needles if you are a drug user are pretty common sense things that people might want to do for other reasons even if they didn't know about HIV/AIDS (if it was before the time when they were prevalent.)
Sure, abstinence/having a single partner and not using IV drugs are best. But second best would be condoms and clean needles.
Sadly, there seems to be both a common sense problem and a knowledge or supply problem (in some cases. I'm not counting jerks who knowingly infect others.)
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
TomDavidson, do you want God to be breathing down our necks all the time, not letting us stray an inch without being pounced upon? No? Like everyone else in the human race, you want Him to back off, and give us space?
OK. Now just how hard do you think God should try to prevent us from bringing down on ourselves things like AIDS, syphillus, hepatitus, bubonic plague, etc.? --Besides giving us the practical, lifestyle counselling that can prevent or arrest the spread of such maladies? The Creator has given us a User's Manual. Don't blame Him if you don't use it.
Posted by Pegasus (Member # 10464) on :
kq: You consistently impress me with your fresh, common sense perspective on a given topic. You never make outlandish claims or unnecessarily provoke others. There are many who could take lessons from a page of your book. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, it depends, Ron. Do you want your best friend to die due to a bad blood transfusion?
quote:Now just how hard do you think God should try to prevent us from bringing down on ourselves things like AIDS, syphillus, hepatitus, bubonic plague, etc.?
I'd like Him to wave His hand and immediately remove all such things from the world. Why not?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Tom, if God were to remove everything evil from the world right now with a wave of His hand, He might have to remove you too, with it. Do you want that? God is not being patient because He is weak or indecisive. It costs Him a great deal to give you more time to repent and be reconciled with Him, so you need not miss out on living forever in fellowship with Him and other righteous beings in the perfection of Paradise Restored.
In the meantime, He must leave us largely to the rule of time and chance. "Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to the skillful; but time and chance happen to them all." (Ecclesiastes 9:11; NRSV)
This is what came to rule over our lives when we dethroned God. He allows this because we need to learn that evil really is bad--all of it, not just the parts we would gladly do without.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Tom, if God were to remove everything evil from the world right now with a wave of His hand, He might have to remove you too, with it.
I'll settle for the infectious diseases, thanks.
quote:He allows this because we need to learn that evil really is bad--all of it, not just the parts we would gladly do without.
So, to clarify, it's your belief that the evils we all don't want -- like fatal diseases -- are permitted to exist so that we can learn to agree that the evils some of us do enjoy occasionally are in fact bad?
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I'd like Him to wave His hand and immediately remove all such things from the world. Why not?
One of my favorite hymns includes the line, "God has no hands but ours."
If we want God to change things, we should get to it.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote: It costs Him a great deal to give you more time to repent and be reconciled with Him, so you need not miss out on living forever in fellowship with Him and other righteous beings in the perfection of Paradise Restored.
I'm kind of curious as to what it could possibly cost an eternal, all-powerful entity to wait a bit?
I was coming around to your way of thinking Ron, but I've got to admit, your belief that God is a pansy is kind of hard to get past.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
God revealed on the Cross of Calvary what tolerating evil has felt like in His heart since its inception. God is perfectly pure and Holy, and His nature recoils from evil, and yet for us to continue existing, He must uphold that existence constantly, by the active exertion of His Spirit moment by moment, knowing us from the inside out. This forces Him to have the knowledge of evil. The intimate knowledge of our evil.
God knew what it was like to be the victim thrown into the furnaces at Dachau--His Spirit was there within the victim experiencing all the pain and despair and rage and sense of injustice with him. God also knew what it was like to be the Nazi prison guard, forcing victims into the fire (or poison gas "showers," or whatever), feeling all the things that he felt.
As the Apostle Paul said of God, "In Him we live, and move, and have our being." (Acts 17:28) The same truth is stated in the Old Testament as well: "In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind." (Job 12:10; NIV) And again: "But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways." (Daniel 5:23) Calvary is but a dim manifestation at one point in space of time of how we have been torturing God for all our generations.
Why has God chosen to endure this for so long? To give us a chance to be reclaimed, restored to His fellowship. He provided a way of forgiveness for us, where He took upon Himself full resposibility for all our sin, and executed in Himself the punishment divine justice decreed against the sinner. In Jesus Christ, God in our flesh, humanity has been executed, sin has been fully punished. A totally new righteous heritage for humanity has been created in the Risen Christ, who stands as the New Adam of a Redeemed race. And yet God must wait for us to choose to accept it all, so He can complete His deliverance of us in fact, without violating our free will--without which there can be no true love.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:God is perfectly pure and Holy
But, also, apparently, a sissy, right? I mean, you don't seem to see him as a particularly strong being. More of eye-liner, all black clothes, and an emo haircut than a white beard, robe, and sandals sort of god, right? He's a whiner, not a smiter?
That's just not something I can get behind.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
MrSquicky, I suggest you read my last post again. The greatest strength an Omnipotent Being can possibly have, is the power of self-restraint, because in restraining Himself, He is restraining omnipotence. That it not weakness, it is Supreme Strength!
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I think I picked up a Mace of Supreme Strength once. I think it was +5 to strength.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I don't know. When a 15 year old boy gets dumped by his girlfriend and holes up in his room, writing songs about how life stinks, that doesn't sound much like self-restraint or Real Ultimate Power to me. Likewise here. I think you may be crediting his withdrawl as restraint.
Maybe the reason that he's not out there kicking evil in the face is because he's trying to work out how to fit "abandonment" into a rhyme and rhythm scheme, not because it's ultimately for the best. How do you know that this isn't the case (metaphorically, of course)?
---
edit: For that matter, that depressed youth could likely find his way onto the internet and start going on about how he could kick everyone's butt with his super martial arts abilities. It's easy, because no one can check it. Couldn't your God be doing the same thing? It's pretty easy to claim to be omnipotent without actually being so, especially when apparently the greatest power you have is that you don't actually do anything.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:The greatest strength an Omnipotent Being can possibly have, is the power of self-restraint, because in restraining Himself, He is restraining omnipotence. That it not weakness, it is Supreme Strength!
He's strong enough to let us die! Tremble at His power! Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
God never meant for us to die at all, but all the death we die is temporary. There is no need for any human to die the "Second death," which is death totally apart from God, from which there can be no resurrection. This Second Death is the death that Jesus died for all of us. He was cast off by His Father, when He was made to be sin for us. But because He is also God, He was able to rise from the Second Death.
Believe it or not, but there are things more important than your death or my death. We could die forever, and that is what God seeks to avoid.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
So what you're saying is that it's not really all that terrible to die of AIDS? Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
Squickys version of God is giving me some great ideas for a comic series. It would definitely start with God getting his butt kicked by Satan in Junior High, and rapidly progress downhill from there. Goth God. I like the ring of that.
Posted by Pegasus (Member # 10464) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: So what you're saying is that it's not really all that terrible to die of AIDS?
I had trouble finding that statement in Ron's post...
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
In response to my observation that God need only eliminate all infectious diseases to prevent a wide variety of horrible deaths, Ron responds with a post that only observes that, thanks to the potential torment of an afterlife, it could be worse. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Sorry, I thought better about my post and deleted it. I didn't realize it had gotten a reply.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Now just how hard do you think God should try to prevent us from bringing down on ourselves things like AIDS, syphillus, hepatitus, bubonic plague, etc.?
Not very. He could just make all those diseases cease to exist. Shouldn't be too tough.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:God never meant for us to die at all
I disagree on this one.
Posted by adfectio (Member # 11070) on :
quote:I disagree on this one.
I think originally, we were meant to live forever. Then Adam and Eve sinned, creating death. Without Sin, there's no death, because it wasn't until they sinned that there was death.
"for when you eat of it you will surely die." Genesis 2:17
"For the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, I believe that that was all part of the plan.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
The Apostle Paul said that all nature was brought under the grinding pain of corruption for our sakes:
quote:"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance." (Romans 8:18-25)
What purpose does it serve for all of nature to be placed under the bondage of corruption for our sakes? So we could see enacted all around us an object lesson that reveals to us what is the true nature of selfish striving, how it results in endless suffering, and in bloody, painful death. This is the true end of "evolution." If we think we mortals can evolve into godhood just by being selfish and self-seeking enough, competitive enough, by being the "fittest," look at nature. Look at the diseases that afflict humans without mercy, despite our medical science. You want evolution? Here is AIDS and Syphillus and Bubonic Plague and Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease. This is what evolution produces. Do you still imagine sinful self-seeking is the way to godhood? The individual may indulge his pride while he is healthy and seems to be on top. But look at all those who failed, scattered beneath his feet. And look how easiy he himself can join them. Eventually all that is sinful and imperfect and wrong in this world will end in the Lake of Fire.
There is one hope for this world. That is for its Creator to remake it in the perfection of Eden, Paradise Restored. But only unselfish love, faith in goodness and righteousness outside of ourselves, can lead to that desired end. Anything else leads to the Lake of Fire.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:You want evolution? Here is AIDS and Syphillus and Bubonic Plague and Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease. This is what evolution produces.
Of course, most evolutionists also believe that evolution produced Ron Lambert. Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Ron: so you expect scientific theories to not explain disease?
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: What purpose does it serve for all of nature to be placed under the bondage of corruption for our sakes? So we could see enacted all around us an object lesson that reveals to us what is the true nature of selfish striving, how it results in endless suffering, and in bloody, painful death.
I think this anthropocentric was of thinking is twisted and harmful.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Do you still imagine sinful self-seeking is the way to godhood?
Nope. Never have. Never will.
What if all of our sinful ways wiped us out for good. Would the sunrises be any less beautiful? Would all of the animals and plants be any less majestic, brutal, and wise?
I think that the way I look at things is so far off-base (and vice versa) from the way you look at things, Ron, that I have trouble even following what you're saying.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Of course, most evolutionists also believe that evolution produced Ron Lambert.
Oh, snap! Curses, my recreational reading of Hatrack has finally shaken my faith in the religion of evolution!
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