The One Ring has a much lengthier, more detailed article. It appears Jackson and New Line have settled all their differences, apparently due to some critical mediating by MGM, who has long sought Jackson to be a part of the project.
There's no word yet on who the director will be, and I'm betting no matter who is named it will be hotly contested. Also no word on who is writing the script, but I wouldn't be surprised if Fran and Peter end up doing it. Producer is a vague title, and they could be very involved in the project, or not that involved at all. I'm sure more details will start coming out soon, with production set to start in a year, but I hope his involvement is more, rather than less. I don't think Jackson is perfect by any means (I thought King Kong was bad, and LOTR had some unnecessary changes) but few I think could argue with the astonishing way he brought LOTR to life, visually, emotionally, and aurally.
I'll update this thread as more news becomes available (if Puffy doesn't beat me to it!).
MGM's Harry Sloan seems to lean, btw, more towards Jackson having MORE involvement with this quote:
quote:“Peter Jackson has proven himself as the filmmaker who can bring the extraordinary imagination of Tolkien to life and we full heartedly agree with the fans worldwide who know he should be making ‘The Hobbit,’”
From TOR article.
New Line also made comments about him being 'actively and creatively involved.' But that's rather vague.
[ June 26, 2008, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
PJ is looking relatively svelte, I must say. Why two films, I wonder?
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
i have the same question pooka. How are they splitting it up?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
There's nothing specific yet on what the second film will encompass. PJ had sought to do two films originally, one to be an actual representation of the Hobbit, possible including a lot of stuff that takes place behind the scenes like the White Council's actions, and a second film that sort of bridges The Hobbit with LOTR.
It's vague, becuase there's quite little written about what actually takes place in those few decades. Given the length of the original LOTR films, and the relatively shortness of The Hobbit, I wouldn't be surprised if they go into every single detail, flesh out the White Council, and then do some sort of extended epilogue to deal with what happens in between.
But I'm still waiting for more details before I make a judgement. I've been less than impressed with comments made in the past about what they plan to put into the extra film. Considering the money they've made, and stand to make, off the films, I'm not surprised they want to milk it for everything, but if they go right off the track into purely making stuff up, as opposed to just altering, I'll boycott whatever is made in that realm.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote: but if they go right off the track into purely making stuff up, as opposed to just altering, I'll boycott whatever is made in that realm.
i agree, but I have faith that PJ wouldn't let that happen.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
If they filmed the Hobbit almost as-is, it would be the perfect length. It needs far fewer changes than most books do to be a great movie.
I wish he would just make the Hobbit without injecting so much that has to be extrapolated into it.
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: PJ is looking relatively svelte, I must say. Why two films, I wonder?
Two words. More Money.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: If they filmed the Hobbit almost as-is, it would be the perfect length. It needs far fewer changes than most books do to be a great movie.
I wish he would just make the Hobbit without injecting so much that has to be extrapolated into it.
I agree, entirely.
I wonder if they'll include the songs? The Hobbit is a bit more jaunty than LOTR was at times, he actually included lyrics to, off the top of my head, three songs. When Bilbo comes to Rivendell (Oh tra la la lally, here down in the valley, ah ha!), when the Dwarves are talking about Lonely Mountain (the dragon's ire more fierce than fire, laid low their towns), and when the Goblins first capture them in the Misty Moutains (you go my lad! Ho ho my lad!) OH! and when the Goblins corner them later in the forest (fifteen birds, in pine fir trees).
I think the way Jackson handled the songs in the LOTR books was stellar. I mean the cartoons threw the songs in your face, but he was much more subtle. You didn't even notice sometimes that they were there because they were in Sindarin. In the extended edition of the first film you hear one of the most beautiful pieces of music I've ever heard, with lyrics directly lifted from the book (O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!), you hear Aragorn sing the Lay of Luthien, and Pippin sing his Hobbit song in Minas Tirith (along with several drinking songs along the way). I think he was pretty masterful at weaving songs that look utterly silly on paper into a serious movie and making them relevent. Granted it'll be harder to do with a song like what the Elves sing in Rivendell, since his portrayal of Elves in The Hobbit is to make them rather child like and silly, or fairly grumpy and isolationist (Thranduil in Mirkwood), but I bet that part gets edited out.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
If there going to make a second Hobbit film, why not do the Scouring of the Shire instead of trying to make up something to fill in a gap in Tolkeins work.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Or any of the stories in the Silmarillion.
Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
Do you think they´ll include "They're taking the Hobits to Isengard" in the film somewhere?
Hope so.
I think I'm more excited about a Hobbit film(s) than the LOTR - I love the Hobbit *reaches for well thumbed copy* I hope they try and reflect the child-like nature f the book, an dnot justr produce a LOTR - Phantom Menace...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I wouldn't mind seeing them do the Scouring of the Shite as a special feature for a DVD release, but let's be honest, Scouring of the Shire isn't a whole film. It's maybe an hour and a half, if you push it, but while 90 minutes might be feature length for some movies, I think people would feel cheated if that was the second movie. When they came back to the Shire, they kicked out the bad men pretty quickly, and then the majority of what followed was the rebuilding. I'm not saying I don't want to see it, I most certainly do, I just don't think that'd count, unless they went back and just in general added a lot of stuff in that they left out of the movie.
I would love to see some of the Silmarillion made into a movie, though as I've said before, I think the Sil is almost more fit to be a TV show than a movie, or at least a very, very long miniseries. Even telling a single story out of the Sil, like the Narn, or some abridged Lay of Beren and Luthien would be hard. The Sil jumps around a lot, with little or no dialogue, and takes place over the course of decades, which is nothing like the material they had to work with in LOTR.
Again, I would LOVE to see some of the Sil stories told. Seeing Beleriand on the big screen would blow me away, especially if Alan Lee was the key artist involved. I just think it'd be extremely difficult, and I don't think they have any intention, at present, to do so. They're getting the easy stories out of the way.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by anti_maven: Do you think they´ll include "They're taking the Hobits to Isengard" in the film somewhere?
Oh, please yes!
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Great now there will be another awesome collector's box set that includes all the director's cuts of LOTR and The Hobbit, and it will have features I want. *throws out current box set* *kicks foot*
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
I just picked up the Hobbit two days ago to reread.
I should have picked it up two years ago. We'd have our movie by now if that were the case.
Stupid me.
Maybe I'll go reread The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and test out my newfound powers.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
You'll have my eternal gratitude. Can you read Bug Jack Barron too, while you're at it?
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
So, who would you cast as Beorn?
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
I imagine one film of the journey to get Smaug's treasure, and a second starting off in the conflict between dwarves and men over the treasure, but I agree that it doesn't seem like an obvious candidate for splitting in two.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
How much creative influence does the produce have on a film? I hope Jackson has a lot. He did a stunning visual job.
Posted by DevilDreamt (Member # 10242) on :
As far as the second movie goes, and even the first, I would like to see Tom Bombadil. I feel he's a very important character (even if he doesn't advance the plot). I greatly enjoy what he represents, and he would certainly add length and depth to the movie if they put him in (the added length was one reason they left him out of the original movies).
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Something just occurred to me: This means I'll see The Chronicles of Narnia: The Voyage of the Dawn Treader -and- The Hobbit in the SAME YEAR!
*passes out*
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
According to the blog, the second movie will in fact be a "sequel."
Ehh...I'm both extremely excited and nervous at the same time.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I have a feeling I'm going to like this one a lot more than I liked the trilogy. Here's to hoping.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I would love to see some of the Silmarillion made into a movie, though as I've said before, I think the Sil is almost more fit to be a TV show than a movie, or at least a very, very long miniseries. Even telling a single story out of the Sil, like the Narn, or some abridged Lay of Beren and Luthien would be hard. The Sil jumps around a lot, with little or no dialogue, and takes place over the course of decades, which is nothing like the material they had to work with in LOTR.
Again, I would LOVE to see some of the Sil stories told. Seeing Beleriand on the big screen would blow me away, especially if Alan Lee was the key artist involved. I just think it'd be extremely difficult, and I don't think they have any intention, at present, to do so. They're getting the easy stories out of the way.
I really think that you could maybe make it work with four movies. The first could cover roughly from Dagor Bragollach to when Beren and Luthien returned from the Halls of Mandos. The second would introduce Tour, and interweave his journey to Gondolin with the spread of Morgoth's forces throughout Beleriand. At the same time, it would cover some of what is going on in Menegroth, possibly up to Thingol's death.
The third would show the fall of Menegroth and Gondolin, and the marriage of Elwing and Erendil. The fourth would then go roughly from just before he left for across the sea to the defeat of Morgoth.
To make it work, you would likely have to play around a lot with ages and times, but I really think that it would work as a film series, and live up to the book fairly well.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Hopefully the movie won't be terribly boring like the book.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I hope it will be terribly boring in the same way the book was.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Even more so, if possible.
Here is a clue though....of you are going to cut out the most important part of the entire book this time because of time constraints......don' turn around and make up stuff that didn't happen in the original!
If you do, most of it will suck.
//end rant
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Kwea speaks wise words. PJ et al: listen to him.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
What would the most important part of The Hobbit be, by that reckoning?
Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
quote: Scouring of the Shite
Hahaha. Freudian slip.
But I agree that The Hobbit will make an awesome movie unto itself, but I really don't know what they're going to make the second movie about. I really hope it's the scouring of the shi(t/r)e. That was one of my favorite parts about the LOTR, and I wished they had kept that in the movies. But, I heard that Peter Jackson hated that part of the book, so I honestly don't think he's going to make a second movie about it. I think it's far more likely to have something from the Similarion or a bridge between the two, although I can't possibly see how he's going to make an entire movie out of the latter. Making stuff up just isn't acceptable in my mind.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The Executive Producer has as much power as is given to him. It's different for every movie. It could be that PJ and Fran end up writing the script and doing a lot of the visualizing and groundwork for it, and then sit back in the studio for a lot of the behind the scenes work while someone else is actually out there with the camera, and then he could be actively involved in post-production.
Look at how much influence George Lucas had over the original Star Wars films that he didn't direct, that might give you an idea as to the power an executive producer CAN have.
On who would play Beorn, if he hadn't of played Hagrid, I'd say Robbie Coltrane. I think if he played him now, he'd look so much like Hagrid that it'd ruin it. If he hadn't played Gimli, I'd say John Rhys Davies, who is actually a pretty tall guy. Now I'm thinking maybe Kevin McNally. He's not really the right size, but they can digitally make him bigger the way they did for Hagrid or the way they shrank Gimli. He's the first one to pop into my head.
Ha ha Abby. I actually didn't even see that until you pointed it out. Hmph.
Ricree -
You left out everything before the Dagor Bragollach! I can see why you'd want to start there, because at the height of the Noldor and Edain's powers you can really get into the conflict since they'd won so much before hand, and you could probably just cover the rest of it in a giant beforeword, a bigger version of what the Fellowshop had. I guess I see your point. But I don't think four movies even would do it justice. There's too much to see and do that takes place too far apart.
I don't know how, cronologically, anything from the Silmarillion could possibly be a "sequel" to The Hobbit, though there's some stuff from The Unfinished Tales you might be able to tell.
As a stand alone tale, either the Lay of Luthien, the Narn, or Hurin and Huor's early life, are the shortest and most fleshed out stories in the Silmarillion.
You know at some point they are going to have to do a flashback sequence to the ruin of the Lonely Mountain by Smaug, the same way they covered Dagor-Lad in the opening of Fellowship. I wonder if they'll do it before the movie, or when the Dwarves get to Hobbiton like in the book. And I wonder who will narrate. As always, I have John Huston as Gandalf's voice in my head giving that speech.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: What would the most important part of The Hobbit be, by that reckoning?
I think the chapter is called Conversations in the Dark (Riddles in the Dark?)? Where Bilbo finds the ring and talks to Gollum. Since Gollum is a virtual non-factor in the book, they could easily have him find the ring and delete the rest of that. Gollum is a non-factor in The Hobbit, but incredibly important later on. I think that could be considered equivilant.
I'm wondering if they will scale up the numbers of the Battle of Five Armies. The only two Elf armies we've seen were the Second Age elves who fought at Orodruin, and the Galadhrim who "fought" at Helm's Deep, but the elves of Mirkwood aren't that fancy, they aren't as sophisticated or learned. And they fight with spears primarily, not swords like what we're see, even though the elves at Orodruin had something like Japanese naginatas. But the numbers at the battle were actually pretty small. Only a couple hundred Dwarves, maybe a thousand elves, etc. I bet they pump the numbers up to try and make a battle more impressive than Pellennor. Considering how they actually did the Pellennor (and how much BETTER it could have been), I think they'll be easily able to outdo it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I'm wondering if they will scale up the numbers of the Battle of Five Armies.
I'm not.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Just a random curiousity.
Mr. Grumpy Pants.
Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
Mmm. The most "important" part of the book - there are so many.
Interestingly, if Legolas is Thranduril's son, then he might well warrant a cameo for Orlando Bloom; either during the "barrel's Out of Bond" section or in the final Battle of the Five Armies...
If they do a casting, I want to be Bombur. I'm only 5'6" and quite round, so the need for makeup would be minimal. I could wear a false beard...
God's teeth! I'm really getting excited now Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
The most important part of the book always has been, and always will be (since it was already written) the riddles.
Edit: I still don't understand how PJ went from doing horribly cheesy low quality Australian horror flicks to LOTR.
Edit2: According to IMDB about Elijah Wood "Two of his favorite books are "The Hobbit" and "The Hunchback of Notre Dame."" and he's a member of the official LOTR fan club.
[ December 19, 2007, 04:49 AM: Message edited by: JonHecht ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I would say it would be reducing the role of the Lake-Men, and of Bard. That would have the same effect, IMO, as removing The Scouring of the Shire did for LOTR.
God forbid.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
I'm hoping the sequel will finally explain to me what some of the Lonely Mountain dwarves were doing off in Moria. Was there a big falling out and that's why they hadn't heard about Moria's fall even though everything was cobwebby when they got there? Plus, the fall of Moria would look incredible on screen.
Denethor could get some screen time. His discovery and initial use of the palantir. Plus, it would be nice to humanize him a little and see him before he went bonkers.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
The movie that will be set during the decades between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings will allow the writers unusual lattitude to write their own story in the Tolkien universe. They will be compared to Tolkien. I think that Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh are up to it; I like the way they did LOTR, showing an artistic ability that was truly equal to the task. (I agree with PJ's choice to excise the Scouring of the Shire--artistically it was anticlimactic and unnecessary.) Maybe they will get a script from someone else they can use, or maybe they will have to write something entirely their own. It will be interesting to see what they eventually come up with. I'm looking forward to a totally new "Tolkien" story.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:artistically it was anticlimactic and unnecessary
That's only if you think the book was about the defeat of Sauron.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: I just picked up the Hobbit two days ago to reread.
I should have picked it up two years ago. We'd have our movie by now if that were the case.
Stupid me.
Maybe I'll go reread The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and test out my newfound powers.
Are you stupid?! (Sorry, you answered that) Go reread Ender's Game... Now!
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Ah! Of course! Ender's Game. I just reread Speaker for the Dead too. I hope I haven't thrown them off...
Having super powers is hard work. Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Who should voice Smaug?
Michael Dorn or Keith David would be my choices.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Michael Madsen would be great, based on his performance as Maugrim in the first Narnia movie.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
I can't help but think of Sean Connery as Smaug, since every time I think of a talking dragon, Dragonheart comes to mind.
But seriously, how about Alan Rickman? I think he could do it right.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: You left out everything before the Dagor Bragollach! I can see why you'd want to start there, because at the height of the Noldor and Edain's powers you can really get into the conflict since they'd won so much before hand, and you could probably just cover the rest of it in a giant beforeword, a bigger version of what the Fellowshop had. I guess I see your point. But I don't think four movies even would do it justice. There's too much to see and do that takes place too far apart.
I'm trying (and failing miserably) to picture how "The Music of the Ainur" could adapt to screen. As much as I'd like to see the Silmarillion done, there are some scenes that I just don't think could be properly adapted, whether on small-screen or as theatrical relesaes.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: I can't help but think of Sean Connery as Smaug, since every time I think of a talking dragon, Dragonheart comes to mind.
Casting Connery in a LotR film is -so- 1999. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well I don't really see how the Music could be adapted either. If you were going to start somewhere, you'd have to be in Valinor. The first "movie" would have to be a quick flashback to the formation of the world and its ordering, and then the Unchaining of Melkor, the death of the trees, the death of Finwe, the Kinslaying at Alqualonde, the ships landing at..okay the picture of Beleriand in my head is coming up short, where did the ships land? Lossgar? The Firth of Drengist? Then the burning of the ships and the crossing of the Grinding Ice, the Helcaraxe.
Then I think the next movie would be the building of the Kingdoms of the Noldor, the first two battles, the coming of the Edain and end just before the Dagor Bragollach. The third movie would start with the Noldor, Sindar and Edain at the height of their power, and then it'd all come to an end. Then you tell of the fall of Nargothrond through the eyes of Turin, Finrod's death through the eyes of Beren, the fall of Gondolin through the eyes of Tuor. And the last movie would end with the fall of Morgoth.
Even still you'd have a lot more story to tell, as the Second Age, largely unwritten but not entirely, has tons of stories to be told. To say nothing of the 3,000 years of Third Age that there is that takes place before Lord of the Rings.
Golden Compass and Lord of the Rings secured two things for me: For some roles, people you've never heard of before are the best casting choices. I think having Ian McKellen as Iorek was a bad choice. By and large the choices made for LOTR, the first trilogy, were actors that Americans by and large had never heard of, with some exceptions, they weren't BIG name actors. For something like the voice of Smaug, it has to be someone we won't readily identify, or they'll have to screw with the voice the way they did for Treebeard (which was REALLY cool btw).
I liked the voice of Smaug from the cartoon. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat:
quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: I can't help but think of Sean Connery as Smaug, since every time I think of a talking dragon, Dragonheart comes to mind.
Casting Connery in a LotR film is -so- 1999.
Then I'm the cock of the walk!
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
With your smart and witty talk?
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Porter, do you also rule the day? Are you feeling the irresistible urge to request information on "penis mightiers"?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Rue, RUE the day.
quote:I'm hoping the sequel will finally explain to me what some of the Lonely Mountain dwarves were doing off in Moria. Was there a big falling out and that's why they hadn't heard about Moria's fall even though everything was cobwebby when they got there? Plus, the fall of Moria would look incredible on screen.
Missed this earlier. There was no falling out that I know of. Balin led a group of Dwarves away to recolonize Moria against the wishes of Dain in Erebor. But after a few years the Orcs destroyed the colony. I think it was a bit of a fakeout that Gimli was all "roaring fires and malt beer!" in the movie, they knew very well that it was highly unlikely there'd be survivors, but they hoped they could slip by without anyone noticing since the orcs were thinned after the Battle of Five Armies.
"The Fall of Moria" happened a thousand years earlier really, when Durin's Bane was unearthed. The fall of Balin's company I would imagine wasn't all that impressive to see, since after only five years I doubt they'd done much to erase the past 1,000 years of orc filth.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
Thanks, Lyr. That bit always confused me.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Tom, I don't care what purpose Tolkien had with including the Scouring of the Shire. Whatever metaphor he may have had in mind, it detracted from the story artistically. The story was over with the defeat of Sauron.
This, of course, is an old debate, along with the omission of Tom Bombadil.
Lyr, you said: "The fall of Balin's company I would imagine wasn't all that impressive to see, since after only five years I doubt they'd done much to erase the past 1,000 years of orc filth."
How then was it that the Dwarves "dug too deep" in their greed, and awakened a Balrog? (As Gandalf implies in Fellowship of the Ring.) It sounded like he was talking about Balin's company. Surely they would not have tried to recolonize Moria if they knew a Balrog was on the loose. I agree with AvidReader, the fall of Moria (in Balin's day) would look good on the screen.
And oh yes, please, please, let's see some Dwarf women! Beards and all!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
He was referring to Durin's Bane, which took place a thousand years ago. Dwarves hadn't been INSIDE Moria for more than a thousand years, they had no idea what was still in there. The last time they'd actually gone to Moria was the Battle of Azunilzibar (murdered the spelling on that I know) Dain told them not to go because he feared Durin's Bane was still lurking about, as evidenced by the fact that Sauron had offered Dain three of the Dwarf rigns and Khazad-Dum back if he'd aid Sauron in getting The One Ring. But Dain didn't trust him, and we don't even know if Sauron could have controlled the Balrog if he'd wanted to. But Dain was pretty sure there was danger there, and told Balin not to go.
Balin went anyway, and of course there were still many orcs in the Misty Mountains, they weren't all killed at the Battle of Five Armies, and of course the Balrog was still there. But if you understand the mindset of Dwarves, having held the dream of recapturing the home of Durin the Deathless, lost for a thousand years, full of Mithril and untold riches of the ancient world, then you might understand why a proud dwarf like Balin could be lured by all that, despite the possible dangers within.
The fall of Moria in Balin's day would've been rather inimpressive. Relatively few dwarves in a small part of Moria. The lower levels were flooded, much of the wealth was gone, and only a small part of the city was even cleaned up and made habitable. It was a shadow of what it had been before it fell.
Oh, and on the Scouring of the Shire, the story wasn't over. Maybe the Third Age was over, and if you consider LOTR to just be a story about how Sauron fell and the TA ended then sure. But the story as a whole wasn't over. He had a very specific message in mind when he sent them back to a ruined Shire, and I think what happened there showed not only how much the Hobbits changed, but also that you can't always go back home again, you don't get to wander off and come back to nice warm, snug beds. It's also a look into what would have happened had they never gone out at all. Personally I didn't like it at first read, but over time I came to find it very important. Cinematically, given how many endings the movie already had, I'm not surprised he left it out, it would have been weird. But if he had filmed it differently, or maybe made it a DVD add on, it would have been just fine.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I only read the Simarillion once, and may have missed something. Keeping all those historical story threads straight would require more fannish dedication than I can muster, alas.
So you are saying, Lyrhawn, that Durin's Bane was the Balrog? Then Gandalf destroyed Durin's Bane! I wish they had made a point of saying that in The Two Towers (movie).
I don't care about moralizing or philosophizing about whether you can "go home again," etc. After nearly twelve hours of movie, it was time for the story to be over and done with. When Sauron exploded, that was it. After that was only denouement and tying up of loose ends. Peter Jackson saw it right.
It rather amused me when you said "the Third Age was over," and dismissed that and went on about what else Tolkien wanted to append to the story. It seems to me that the end of the Third Age is about as big a conclusion as you could want.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Don't worry, I have enough fannish dedication for the both of us.
Yes, Durin's Bane was the Balrog (called that because a thousand years earlier, Durin VI (IV? I can never get my Durins straight) had Khazad-Dum overthrown by the Balrog and orcs during his reign, and I think he was killed by it), and Gandalf defeated him on top of Durin's Tower after climbing the Unending Stair.
You get more details when you go into the Histories of Middle Earth and the other smattering of resources out there.
It was Gandalf's killing of the Balrog that allowed the Dwarves, led by Durin VII to recolonize Khazad-Dum for good in the Fourth Age.
I get how you could see the Scouring that way. But for me, I'm always going to be more interested in what happens in Middle Earth than just the end of the Third Age. I want to know what happens after.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I agree about that last--knowing what happens after. I would like to know what happens to the Hobbits in the Fourth Age. Did they eventually die out, along with the Orcs, Urukind, and Dwarves? (The Elves immigrated to America. Just kidding.) Or should we even assume that Middle Earth is a precursor to the modern world?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Tolkien I think somewhere has it written that we are currently living in like the Eighth Age of the world or something like that.
Dwarves sort of just faded back into the Earth, turned back into the stone they were created from.
Elves all went to the Undying Lands.
Hobbits are still around, but slowly they hid away from Big Folk and we don't see them anymore, also I think he wrote something about how they slowly became more like regular people, slowly getting taller and more human like.
Hobbits in the Fourth Age were just fine I think. He only wrote a bit about how things go into the Fourth Age, most in the Histories. Aragorn reestablishes his kingdom in Arnor, and Pippin is made Thain, and I think Aragorn rebuilds Annuminas, and then he gives a ton more land to the Shire and the Hobbits, more or less making them an independent country but they still are under his control technically.
I don't remember all the details off the top of my head.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: also I think he wrote something about how they slowly became more like regular people, slowly getting taller and more human like.
Well, that's what the writer of the Rankin-Bass animated adaptation of The Return of the King decided.
Of course, the evidence he gave was that Merry and Pippin were so much taller...apparently he had never bothered to read the part about ent-draught.
Heck, he also had Sam completely unaware of who Galadriel was!
Not a very good researcher. Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
So yesterday I got it in my head to watch all 3 extended editions of LOTR with a couple friends (only got through two. We've done it before though) and it really made me want to read the books. The Hobbit is already on my reading list for this Christmas break. And now I'm stoked they're making it into a movie. Looks like its time for me to be a LOTR fanboy again! Now where's my copy of the Silmarillion....?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Did the Ents ever get back together with the Ent-wives? Maybe the Hobbits facilitated this reunion, and in gratitude, the Ents provided liberal doses of Ent-draughts to all the Hobbits, causing the Hobbits to grow up and be just another kind of humans. (I think they grew up to be Canadians, but I could be wrong.)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Did the Ents ever get back together with the Ent-wives?
In his notes, Tolkien said no.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
...and it feels familiar. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think the Ent-Wives went far into the East, beyond Rhun and the sea into unknown lands. Their gardens were in the Brown Lands (well, called that now) and were destroyed during the Last Alliance.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
As for the casting list, they're picking all big name actors, which I've already expressed a dislike of for The Hobbit. I'd like to see PJ be actively involved in the casting, I trust him to not just go for big names.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I trust him to not just go for big names.
At the same time, keep in mind that Ian McKellen, Christopher Lee, Sean Astin, Elijah Wood, John Rhys-Davies, Liv Tyler, etc weren't exactly 'unknowns' either.
I'm sure they'll go for the performers they feel best fit the role. And I hope New Line's learned their lesson on 11th hour stunt casting.
[ December 22, 2007, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Puffy Treat ]
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:I'm sure they'll go for the performers they feel best fit the role. And I hope New Line's learned their lesson on 11th hour stun casting.
What do you mean? There is alot about the LOTR movies I know nothing about as I was in media blackout from 09/01-08/03
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Oh, I was referring to New Line's last minute decision to re-cast Iorek Byrnison's voice in The Golden Compass. Almost everyone I've talked with agrees: We love Ian, we love Iorek, but they aren't a good performer/character match.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Peter Jackson appeared in The Return of the King, as one of the pirate crew. How can we expect to see him show up in The Hobbit? Remember, he's svelte now.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
He'll be one of the Mirkwood spiders.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: Oh, I was referring to New Line's last minute decision to re-cast Iorek Byrnison's voice in The Golden Compass. Almost everyone I've talked with agrees: We love Ian, we love Iorek, but they aren't a good performer/character match.
In my head the casting choice does not make sense. They should have used the voice actor for Iorek from the Audio Book series of His Dark Materials.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: He'll be one of the Mirkwood spiders.
Aren't the Mirkwood spiders generally portrayed as female?
Posted by Lime (Member # 1707) on :
The MTV picks were appropriately appalling -- for the most part.
Bruce Campbell as Beorn? Ryan Gosling as Bard? Wow.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Aren't the Mirkwood spiders generally portrayed as female?
Fine. He'll be a Mirkwood elf.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
del Toro has shown a propensity to really dive into the source material though, as he has done a few adaptations before, so I give him a lot of credit for that, plus he's done fantasy before. I wouldn't want LOTR to look like Pan's Labyrinth, as I think Hellboy 2 sort of does from the trailer, so I worry about that, but with PJ there to approve the artistic feel of it, I'm more okay with it.
del Toro is fine with me, for the moment. I'd have to see who the other choices are, but right now I can't think of any particular reason to blackball him.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Hellboy and Mimic (the adaptation films of his that I've seen) were not very faithful to the source material. They were also annoying, boring, and forgetful.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
If you really look for it, some news has popped up in various places about the status of The Hobbit. Apparently del Toro is a regular poster over at the board for Hellboy II on Universal, which is both surprising and amazing, he actually answers tons of questions over there that people have about Hellboy, and some have asked questions about LOTR. I really hope that he'll do the same in a year when Hobbit starts to pick up. Jackson wasn't under a microscope from the public when he was filming LOTR, because most people didn't really know what was going on at the time. But this time around? Totally different story.
Anyway. Apparently between work on Avatar and Lovely Bones, a lot of artists at Weta are starting to do some very preliminary work on The Hobbit. I read a transcript of an interview between a Weta artist and a German LOTR fan site, and he was talking about already working on the Dwarves and Smaug, and how they have a new process for the Dwarf prosthetics.
Various officials at MGM have more specifically defined Jackson's role on the project. They describe it as his project specifically, and that no director or writer will be involved unless Jackson okays it. So far as I can tell, he'll be very involved with production, especially the creative side, which I'm more concerned with, and he'll merely be farming out the directing to del Toro, who, though he hasn't officially been signed on, has already started to find a production staff and worked on cast, crew and arists for the project.
It's also been hinted that if the timing works out, Jackson could take charge of the filming for the second movie. Really MGM has said he can take over the directing for both of them if he wants, but it's a matter of scheduling. The interview with the exec I said hinted that Jackson might be so involved during preproduction that he won't want to let someone else direct it. I think he was joking but, Jackson has spent like a decade working on LOTR, he's bought a ridiculous amount of the props, costumes, even set designs. I read that he has a Hobbit hole on his property.
Despite the fact that principal photography is a year away, preproduction has begun, and by the end of the year will be in full swing I think. My biggest concern as the moment is whether or not Alan Lee and John Howe are involved.
I'll keep you updated.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:Despite the fact that principal photography is a year away, preproduction has begun, and by the end of the year will be in full swing I think. My biggest concern as the moment is whether or not Alan Lee and John Howe are involved.
Oh they'd better be! They're concepts and ideas practically made the LOTR movies. They will be, with Jackson at the helm I'm sure of it. Unless one or both of them has gotten tired of Middle Earth... Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
They've been drawing Middle Eart their entire lives. I don't think they'd give up now, not with the chance to conceptualize Erebor, Smaug, Beorn, the Spiders, the Mirkwood, etc.
I'm really wondering how they'll portray the Elves in Mirkwood. These are different elves from the ones we're used to seeing. Imladris and Lorien were full of a combination of Sindarin and Noldorin Elves, which either saw the light of Aman or at least came over the Misty Mountains into Beleriand. But the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood never went on the march, never saw the light, never learned from the more knowledgable elves. They're described as less trusting, quicker to anger, basically closer to Dark Elves or humans in many ways. They aren't the elves we're used to. Legolas is different, mostly because I believe he has Vanyar heritage, but even with him I think we saw that his raiment and what not weren't quite as grand as everything else we saw of the Elves, and he was royalty. I love Elves, but I also love accuracy.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I can't remember which, but either Howe or Lee is reported as being signed on to the project.
It's also being reported that the script will be written by Fran Walsh and Phillipa Boyens, under the direction of PJ and GDT.
There will be a Q&A on TOR this weekend with GDT and PJ. I'd love to be a part of it but I have to work all weekend. I'd love to ask them a half dozen different questions, but I think we'll get some of the big questions out of the way this weekend. Should be interesting!
Contact has already been made with Viggo, Ian McKellen and Andy Serkis about reprising their roles for these two movies. An exec at MGM has also been quoted as saying that Hobbit and Sequel are slated for December '11 and '12. And they are also talking about FURTHER sequels, and she was excited about the prospects of a franchise to take place during the huge gap between The Hobbit and Fellowship.
Which is a HORRIBLE idea. If they were to tackle anything next, it should be the Silmarillion. As a side note, two of my friends over this past Winter, one in Scotland and one in Ireland, got me a first edition hardcover copy of The Silmarillion, both of which I love dearly. Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
They are filming a Del Toro producede film in the village where my wife works. I have a network of people with my cell phone number in case Guillermo arrives on set so that I can drop everything and pester him mercilessly into being in the film(s).
After recent dietary excesses I'm shooting for Bombur...
I'll let you know how I get on...
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Lord of the Rings IV: The Revenge of the King Lord of the Rings V: Merry and Pippin Go to Grey Havens Lord of the Rings VI: The Final Chapter
The Hobbit III: Night of the Balrog The Hobbit IV: Hobbit Babies! The Hobbit V: Bard's Song
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Reprising Aragorn? So they're doing all the behind the scenes stuff with the storming of Dol Guldur and the like? Cool!
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
The Hobbit VI: Aliens VS Sauron The Hobbit VII: Dwarves in Boats (We don't jump the shark, we toss them over it.) The Hobbit VIII: A very special episode--Young Frodo and Wizard's Wand.
Lord of the Rings VII: The Black Fleet of the Caribbean Lord of the Rings VIII: Ents in Love Lord of the Rings IX: Legolas Saves Christmas
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Will New Line's alleged cooking of the books never cease to haunt this production? Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I actually don't remember there being THAT much in the Silmarillion about what happens during that time period. I think they'll have to look at half dozen different books like the Lost Tales or Unfinished Tales to really get the info they want.
And I don't know how I feel about Ian Holm narrating. I prefer Cate Blanchett.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Doug Jones has been unofficially confirmed by GDT for a role in The Hobbit. He's said the role will be very difficult and involve long hours in heavy makeup. Any guesses?
On concerns that the creatures in The Hobbit will look like Pan's Labyrinth creatures, and for that matter strikingly similar creatures in HBII, he had this to say:
quote:"Yeah, but remember one thing. The terrain that is covered by the trilogy is a very defined area. The Hobbit goes different places, goes different things. To give you an example, Shelob is a spider but the spiders of Mirkwood are completely different. So I plan to bring myself to The Hobbit, no doubt about that."
One of those lovely non answer answers that sort of spooks me a little bit, but we'll see.
quote:Del Toro went on to say that the film will not necessarily be similar in style to the Lord of the Rings trilogy, nor will it be like any of his own dark fantasy films, such as Hellboy and Pan's Labyrinth.
"I'm not trying to honor either my style or what I'm gravitating normally towards," del Toro said. "I know that for a fact I gravitated towards the novel. So there's something there that echoes with me very strongly, which is not the case with most fantasy, in my case."
James McAvoy is rumored to play Bilbo, but both he and GDT have denied this. The role has not yet been cast so far as I can tell, and JM wants to take some time off from acting, though he says he'd consider it if the script was right.
GDT has also said that when The Hobbit II (which he has literally stated will NOT be named "The Hobbit 2: Electric Boogaloo") is completed, he'd like to start work on Hellboy III.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
I'm more curious in some ways if they'll try to re-do Hobbiton in the same location they did last time. That was a peculiar confluence of good fortune (including getting the New Zealand military to secure airspace so they could keep the shooting a secret!...) that is not likely to happen twice.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
After having recently seen The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe and Kill Bill 2 recently, I have become more fully convinced that Michael Madsen should be the voice of Smaug. Just imagine "Well, thief. I smell you and I feel your air" in that voice.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Awww... I guess Ian Holm is too old to reprise his role as Bilbo. That would have been too perfect anyway. Oh well... He was an awesome Bilbo, honestly I have trouble imagining anyone else doing it.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
IMDB still lists McAvoy as Bilbo, but they've been wrong before.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Dag - Is Michael Madson the guy who played Bill? If so, I agree that'd be a good choice.
Holm is expected to be involved in some way Alcon, but not as Bilbo.
pg - Last time I looked at IMDB, he was listed as Bilbo (rumored). Considering there is no script and preproduction doesn't even begin until the end of next month, I tend to side with those who think it really is just a rumor. Very few roles have already been cast.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Dag - Is Michael Madson the guy who played Bill? If so, I agree that'd be a good choice.
No, he played Bud, Bill's brother. He played the chief wolf in TLtWatW.
David Carridene played Bill, and he wouldn't be a bad choice, either. Tarrentino seems to cast actors with good voices.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Originally posted by JonHecht: "Edit: I still don't understand how PJ went from doing horribly cheesy low quality Australian horror flicks to LOTR."
That would be NEW ZEALAND horror flicks, thanks very much. Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
If I were to write movies based on the Silmarilion, I'd begin with a flashback to the separation of the elves, touch briefly on what happened in Valinor, but then start the story from the point of view of the Sindarin just as the Noldor return. Then slowly start revealing what the sons of Feanor did while in Valinor, putting the conflict with Morgoth as a backdrop for the conflicts the elves have with each other.
Edit: I feel a little silly. I didn't even realize there was a second page to the thread, and I didn't even look at the dates on the earlier posts. Whoops.
[ June 26, 2008, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Epictetus ]
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Quoting Lyrhawn: "Even still you'd have a lot more story to tell, as the Second Age, largely unwritten but not entirely, has tons of stories to be told. To say nothing of the 3,000 years of Third Age that there is that takes place before Lord of the Rings."
I posted on this very thing about a year or so ago, but in relation to books other, approved-by-the-Tolkien-estate, authors could write, fleshing out the stories in the Annals and so on, in the same way that Asimov's universe has been opened up in carefully controlled ways. It seems logical to me that Tolkien would want this incredibly detailed and beautiful world he created to be a living, organic thing rather than something frozen in amber forever.
[ June 26, 2008, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Cashew ]
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
SILLMARILLION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Cashew -
I'm just one of those that thinks it's perfect the way it is. There's no author out there I'd trust with it, other maybe than Chris Tolkien. And anything that anyone would write for it wouldn't be canon as far as I'm concerned.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
I know Lyrhawn, it was you that responded to my original post on the topic. I know what you mean, I just find the stories in the appendices so tantalising. I think Christopher Tolkien's pretty hidebound about the whole thing, understandably, he has a tremendous legacy to protect, but still, I somehow think JRR would be a little less precious about it all.
Posted by bootjes (Member # 11624) on :
If the scouring of the shire is possible, so is Tom Bombadil.
Posted by bootjes (Member # 11624) on :
I have a theory about Tom Bombadil:
In the book he is so old that the ring can't touch him. I think this is because Tolkien wrote songs about Tom Bombadil before he even started with the lord of the rings.
So time is not measured in the time of the story alone. What can be older than the world? Tom can. Because he was there before the world was, in the mind of Tolkien.
I think Tolkien refers to this as sort of an inside joke.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't think Tom is THAT old. I think he was one of the Maiar, if I had to guess. It's never said explicitly, but I don't see a better explanation for his abilities.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Except that Gandalf and Sarumann are both of the Maiar as are all of the Istari and they are not immune to the ring in the way Bombadil was.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Maybe he was just a more powerful Maiar. They weren't all the same.
Posted by bootjes (Member # 11624) on :
But Tom is not part of the war. He is not part of anything. He has a complete other quality about him, ,a complete different force, from another tale. At least, that is how I see him.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:Gandalf calls Tom Bombadil the eldest being in existence; this is also evidenced by his Sindarin name Iarwain Ben-adar (Eldest and Fatherless). Dwarves called him Forn (Scandinavian, meaning "Ancient" or "Belonging to the distant past"), Men Orald (compare to german: uralt, very old). All these names apparently mean "Eldest."
From wikipedia, but I remember where those things are said in the books. I think it's fair to say that Tom Bombadil is not one of the Maiar. However, wikipedia also says that even Tolkien didn't really know what he was. He was intended to be one of the mysteries of the world. One of it's oldest denizens and very powerful and wise in his domain.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
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