So, I have a friend who I generally consider to be a nice girl, gets good grades, acts well, all that jazz. But she drinks from time to time at the parties for her drama company, and it was revealed today that she's done marijuana a couple times in the past.
She'd been not telling me that because I'm generally not a fan of substances and feel like it's a bit unnecessary, and possibly unnecessarily dangerous etc. etc.
This led me to think on whether my attitudes towards substances are well-founded or just based on social stigma. I can see how drinking or smoking or something could be fun and all... but is the minor brain damage and potential for addiction (I know, more significant and everything with often use.. but it's impossible to use often if you don't at all)
So I'm wondering what everyone's opinion is on the matter. And if anyone has some research to back things up that'd be awesome also. I SINCERELY hope I never find myself doing any heavy drugs... like cocaine, heroin etc etc because I can see no rationale in the danger those pose.. And as of now I'm generally against pot and drinking, but can sorta see drinking a little bit... (but then, is drinking really "better" ethically and health-wise, than smoking marijuana,just because the govt. says so) (also.. breaking laws isn't terribly fun)..
The floor is open. And I am eager to hear from y'all.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
I don't think marijuana is any more dangerous, particularly to other people, than alcohol is. I think either is probably reasonable to use in moderation, but I've never done marijuana and I have maybe one alcoholic drink every two or three years. In general, I don't like the idea of using mind-altering substances, but I think the danger of marijuana has been overstated, especially compared to alcohol.
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
What Matt said, except that I drink just a tad more often (about 1-2 drinks a month).
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:I don't think marijuana is any more dangerous, particularly to other people, than alcohol is
Marijuana does create second-hand smoke, which IS dangerous to others, regardless of other dangers created by DUI, etc.
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
-edit removed-
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
You know, there is another way to enjoy marijuana. Baking it into brownies just doesn't seem so harmful to me.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote: I can see how drinking or smoking or something could be fun and all... but is the minor brain damage and potential for addiction (I know, more significant and everything with often use.. but it's impossible to use often if you don't at all)
I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain drinking in moderation does no harm to your brain that could be classed as "minor brain damage."
Marijuana is not physiologically addicting, although research has shown that psychological addictions are often based on addictions to associated secondary chemical reactions resulting from the addictive behavior.
quote:(but then, is drinking really "better" ethically and health-wise, than smoking marijuana,just because the govt. says so)
If the two were ever made equally legal and available, we'd be able to judge. Because marijuana is illegal in so many places, we have no satisfactory way to assess (to my satisfaction, at least) whether it's more or less dangerous and unhealthy than alcohol.
From a subjective, anecdotal viewpoint, however, I find marijuana is, generally speaking, significantly less dangerous than alcohol. You can die from overdosing on alcohol; such an overdose is impossible on marijuana. Alcohol causes aggressive, even violent behavior in a substantial portion of its users; marijuana does not. Alcohol is addicting; marijuana has no physiologically addictive chemicals, although recent research has shown that many psychological addictions have a chemical basis. Etc. Etc. Etc.
One of the reasons why I find the two incomparable, though, is because there are many people who drink but do not get drunk, and there are some who do not even drink to get mildly intoxicated. Marijuana users, on the other hand, are almost universally aiming to be high.
I think both alcohol and marijuana can be used responsibly. I think marijuana can and should be legalized because I think we can easily create laws to prevent/punish irresponsible use, much like the laws we have to prevent/punish irresponsible use of alcohol, and legalizing marijuana would make it significantly safer in dozens of different ways.
Ethically speaking, you're on your own. While I think most people would agree that irresponsible use of either substance is unethical, I've yet to see a compelling universal reason why responsible use of ANY substance is ethical or unethical.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Marijuana does create second-hand smoke, which IS dangerous to others, regardless of other dangers created by DUI, etc.
Only if it's smoked. There are dozens of other increasingly common ways cannabis is used.
Edit: Val beat me to it!
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, yeah. But when people talk about "using marijuana", most of them I know mean smoking it, at least once.
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
I was thinking not so much of the second hand smoke-type badness, which it would obviously be inconsiderate to force on ppl who don't want it.. but yeah, it can be avoided.
I don't know... at least without experience in the matter, mind-altering drugs seem scary to me: not being in complete control of myself.. etc. Hm.
My current feelings are that if you want to do that sort of thing, feel free to, but one shouldn't do it to the point that it's affecting their life badly. And before I know how I handle those sorts of things I'd want to do it in a controlled environment, like with just a couple friends, who are doing it or not, to get an objective perspective on the whole affair.
Thinking about trying either marijuana just seems more bad.. probably from its vilification in society.. eh.
So does repeated, though sporadic, use of marijuana (or alcohol) cause brain issues at all? I'd feel sorta weird about knowingly harming my brain... what with my affinity for it and all.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:So does repeated, though sporadic, use of marijuana (or alcohol) cause brain issues at all? I'd feel sorta weird about knowingly harming my brain... what with my affinity for it and all.
That depends on the amount used, for alcohol. Marijuana has never been demonstrated to have any damaging effects on your brain cells, even with heavy use. That marijuana kills brain cells is some of the most oft-repeated misinformation on any drug.
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: [QUOTE] One of the reasons why I find the two incomparable, though, is because there are many people who drink but do not get drunk, and there are some who do not even drink to get mildly intoxicated. Marijuana users, on the other hand, are almost universally aiming to be high.
True, but being high isn't a binary thing; there are certainly degrees of it. When I was younger virtually all of my friends were heavy pot smokers, and there would be times when they would smoke with the intent of getting slightly buzzed, and times when they'd smoke with the intention of absolutely blitzing themselves.
I agree that there is a lot more range of use among alcohol drinkers than among pot smokers, though. I've certainly never known someone to have a tiny hit because they like the taste or sensation of the smoke in their lungs, for example, but people routinely will enjoy a small amount of alcohol for equivalent reasons.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
I was about to respond to the first part of your post, and then read the second part, and now I don't know why I'm posting at all! Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I don't smoke marijuana and never will but I'm around it constantly.
From what I understand of it, both from erudite chemical study and social interactions, its status as an illegal drug is patently silly given the legality of tobacco and alcohol. It's as harmless as recreational substances get.
It's fundamentally different from 'hard' drugs like heroin and cocaine because its illegality does not reasonably reflect a public health risk associated with the chemical product. It isn't easily compared.
I'm at the point where I could care less if someone smokes pot. It's just fundamentally irrelevant to me if someone elects to. If it makes them boring then hey, that's their choice.
Of course I'm still also annoyed at anyone who pesters me to take up potsmoking. These dolts are rare, though.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
The only reason I don't smoke pot any more is because of it's illegality. It's not worth the risk. I'm a social drinker on weekends, though. A lot of people who've never smoked pot or drank are afraid of "not being in control" of themselves, but I think that's a distorted way of looking at it. I've never felt like I wasn't in control of my body or thoughts when drunk or high. It was no different than being very tired and silly because of it. You're obviously not 100% alert, but it's not like some demon is taking over your body.
I don't like sugar & caffeine highs, and find it somewhat unsettling how many people are addicted to THOSE drugs.
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
Smoking POT is very much like drinking, it can kill you or it can just give you a few laughs.
There are many factors that come into play. Do you have other psychological issues that are unresolved? Do you have an addictive personality, psychology, or physiology? Are you a motivated person with goals in life?
Smoking Pot makes you lazy and unmotivated, but you can, with conscious effort, override that. So, for some people, you can very easily smoke pot and get on with your life. For others, it becomes too easy. Why work for a better life when you can just smoke pot and for a few hours have the illusion of a better life. But of course the illusion fails and then you need more pot to sustain it.
I think it is important for users of alcohol and pot to understand the dangers, and to proceed in a way that counters those potential dangers.
One safety factor in pot is, as I said, it makes you unmotivated, so you are far less likely to drive when you are substantially impaired. More likely your going to be too stoned to do anything of substance.
Alcohol on the other hand makes you stupid. You drink too much and start stumbling around thinking you are invincible. You go out and drive your car because you think you've got everything under control, but at that point, you absolutely do not.
Now there are some harder drugs that are extremely difficult to control because for everyone, they have strongly addictive properties, properties that you simply can not escape. These are extremely dangerous drugs, and if you let your guard down for a second, you'll destroy your life very quick.
It is very much possible to use both alcohol and pot with a measure of control and common sense, and to control and moderate your use. I think both alcohol and pot, for normal people, are far less addicting than coffee. The only reason we allow something as habit forming as coffee is because you don't get stoned and stupid off of it. But for shear addition, coffee is more addicting than alcohol or pot for a normal person.
Notice, I said for a normal person. Some people have a predisposition or sensitivity to certain drugs that almost guarantees that they CAN NOT use it in a controlled and moderated way. It is like instant addiction.
For others, there are potentially sociological and psychological reason why use of any drug can and will get out of control
For these people, no matter how good it feels, they absolutely must abstain, or the consequences will be grave.
The problem is that society promotes and admires the very addictive behavior that are sign that we should not drink.
For example, in the movies the hard-drinking drink-'em-under-the-table kind of guy is the very guy who is nearly guaranteed to become an alcoholic. To people with high capacities for alcohol, that is a warning sign that you are likely to have problems. People who have high tolerance, that is, people who seem to be able to drink a lot with little effect, again, we imply that this is what we admire, but in reality it is a warning sign of high potential for problems.
I think we very much need to educate people in a realistic way about the danger and warning sign of addition potential for any and all (what I will call) soft drugs.
There are real dangers, but those dangers can and are moderated and controlled by people with common sense and a will to succeed in life.
Just a few thoughts.
Steve/BlueWizard
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
"So, I have a friend who I generally consider to be a nice girl, gets good grades, acts well, all that jazz. But she drinks from time to time at the parties for her drama company, and it was revealed today that she's done marijuana a couple times in the past."
I find it harder finding friends of mine who don't smoke pot than finding ones who do.
It's the minority. Even in my own family there are numerous people who do so, or have done so. My own parents have done far worse.
I don't care anymore. When I was younger I would have, but anymore? It doesn't bug me. It may decrease my respect for the person a tad, especially if they smoke heavily, as I've seen the negative effects that come from heavier as opposed to more controlled pot smokers.
Others here have spoken of the physiological things better than I could.
But honestly? Pot doesn't bug me anymore. I recognize the smell, dislike the smell, and have no interest in placing smoke in my lungs, either tobacco or marijuana, but if others do it, I don't really care.
That said, I have much less interest hanging out with someone on hard drugs. Vastly more... well. Unpleasant.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
A ridiculous number of people at the restaurant I work at smoke pot. I have a lot of different feelings on the subject of smoking pot.
First off, I think weed should be legalized, or cigarettes should be made illegal. I see alcohol has a separate issue, but one without the other is dumb and doesn't make sense. It should be made legal, even though as of this moment I have no intention of availing myself of that legality. In other words, if it were made legal I doubt I'd do it. I've thouhgt about it. Getting it hasn't been difficult since I got to high school, and in the 8 years that've gone by since then, I've rarely been in a place where I couldn't easily come up with a source for it, and I'm betting most people here are in the same situation.
I'd like to think I wouldn't have less respect for someone if they smoke, but truth is I probably do, but I swear it's not something I choose. There's a girl at work I have a bit of a crush on, and generally I go for nice girls, and when I found out she smoked weed I was crestfallen. I wouldn't not be someone's friend because of it, but I guess, just a teeny bit, even though I've considered it myself at times, I'd think less of someone if they did.
Have I ever? No. Will I ever? Doubtful, but I won't totally rule it out. I have to admit that I'm curious as to what it's like, but I have impressive amounts of willpower when I need to.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: Smoking Pot makes you lazy and unmotivated, but you can, with conscious effort, override that.
Has this been shown? I thought the studies out there were equivocal as to whether smoking marijuana made you more unmotivated or whether people already less unmotivated about life in general were just more likely to get into smoking marijuana heavily. *honest question
--
Edited to correct quotation and add: Or do you just mean unmotivated while smoking? I thought you might be referring to the much-touted "demotivation syndrome," but I see I could be misreading you.
[ January 03, 2008, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: Smoking POT is very much like drinking, it can kill you or it can just give you a few laughs.
As eros mentioned, it's virtually impossible to overdose on pot. I'm not sure there's even one recorded instances of anyone doing so. This sentence is a lie.
The only reason marijuana (IMO) is illegal is that the government has no control over the supply. If it was simple for them to regulate and tax it I feel sure it would be legal in a heartbeat. The stigma is total b.s., as about 20 minutes of research should make it clear that not only is marijuana less dangerous than alcohol but it's also arguably less dangerous than cigarettes.
Second hand smoke is of almost no concern, because no one is around the smoke that doesn't want to be (given that smoking's illegal it's not as though it's something innocent bystanders are going to be subjected to). In my (considerable) experience being around smokers (in 4 different states over the last 10 years), it's either a small group of people where the majority smokes or, if it's a large gathering, the smokers will find a separate room/location to smoke in. It's not like cigarette smoke, where if you live in the wrong part of the country you can't go have a beer without being bombarded by it.
And I don't smoke. I just can't stand the hypocrisy of the government and society where pot is concerned.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
Andy Looney (the creator of the card game Fluxx) has a good article on why marijuana is no more (and probably less) dangerous than alcohol and tobacco if used responsibly. Obviously he's not an expert, but he seems to have read a lot of studies.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I used to have a boyfriend who used quite a bit of pot and in addition to decreasing his anxiety (which as we know from various sci-fi utopia episodes results in laziness to the point of societal collapse) he mentioned disproportionate paranoia and the munchies. He'd drive his car excessively slow - which I think made him a danger. I think if marijuana were used by the same social set as own recreational firearms, we'd see a lot more problems.
Alcohol and tobacco should be illegal, but I don't see that as a compelling reason to make "less dangerous" drugs legal. I support keeping pot illegal, though I acknowledge that the legal drugs probably are more dangerous. [edit extraneous rant on junk food]
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:As eros mentioned, it's virtually impossible to overdose on pot. I'm not sure there's even one recorded instances of anyone doing so. This sentence is a lie.
I know someone who died as a result of smoking pot, so that sentence is definitely not a lie. You are mistakenly assuming that overdosing is the only way drugs can kill someone. The person I know died because smoking pot eventually led him to more serious drugs, which eventually led him to severe addiction, which eventually led him to suicide.
To fairly judge the effects of using mind-altering substances, you have to look at the broader effect the behavior has on a person's life as a whole, not just on the short-term specific chemical effect of the drug itself. If you take a broad look and compare both moderate and heavy users, I think the harm it causes is clear. My guess is that the reason for that is more psychological than chemical; drug use distracts one from the more meaningful pursuits in life, and instead focuses one on mere means of contentment - and very dangerous means at that. Whether my guess is true or not, I don't see how anyone can deny that drug use completely destroys lives, and harms many others to some lesser (sometimes hard to isolate) degree. Just look around.
One can always argue that doing it just one or two times is okay; that very little to no harm will come from that. And while it is true that doing so in itself is not likely to do to much damage to your own life, once again it would be shortsighted not to consider the broader picture. For one thing, every person whose life was destroyed by drug use began by trying something just once or twice. That initial choice opens up many new paths, more than a few of which lead to pretty unhappy ends. For another thing, even just through the most moderate of drug use, you do support the larger drug-using network. Your money goes into the hands of those who benefit from ruining the lives of addicts. You set an example for your peers, your future children, and others. This final point is possibly the most important argument against very moderate drug use, but it is typically also one of the most overlooked or written off. It is easiest to act as if one's own personal decisions only effect oneself, but that is not the case.
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
I smoke marijuana every day, and I think I'm a happier person because of it. I am aware that smoking is harmful to my health (which is one reason I quit smoking cigarettes recently - I'm about 2 weeks in and going strong, even though all I want is cigarettes). I look at it as my way of relaxing in the evening. Some people might have a glass of wine, I smoke a bowl. I very rarely get to a point that I would consider myself "stoned" or "high". It merely relaxes me a little. First-time users I'm sure would be affected differently, because the first time I smoked pot I was obliterated and unable to drive myself home. Since that time, I have never smoked to the extent that I feel clumsy or sloppy (that said, I also do not make a habit of driving after smoking - I just don't want to take any risks.) I think if used in moderation, smoking marijuana is a perfectly acceptable habit and FAR less dangerous than alcohol. *shrug* Just my two cents.
Posted by krynn (Member # 524) on :
drinking occasionally and having smoked pot a couple times isn't really much to worry about in my opinion. when i came into this thread i was thinking someone's friend was going to rehab for a drug addiction or something. i honestly laughed when i read the first post, partly because i knew it was sincere.
of course neither are good for you, but she sounds like she is a fairly responsible person. i wouldnt worry too much about it. now, if she starts missing work, or avoiding friends for extended periods of time... that's different.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax:
quote:As eros mentioned, it's virtually impossible to overdose on pot. I'm not sure there's even one recorded instances of anyone doing so. This sentence is a lie.
I know someone who died as a result of smoking pot, so that sentence is definitely not a lie. You are mistakenly assuming that overdosing is the only way drugs can kill someone. The person I know died because smoking pot eventually led him to more serious drugs, which eventually led him to severe addiction, which eventually led him to suicide.
The pot didn't kill him; he killed himself. My statement stands.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I know someone who died as a result of smoking pot, so that sentence is definitely not a lie. You are mistakenly assuming that overdosing is the only way drugs can kill someone. The person I know died because smoking pot eventually led him to more serious drugs, which eventually led him to severe addiction, which eventually led him to suicide.
If you can find me even ONE study that shows a causal relationship between marijuana and other drug use, then this might have merit--say, about as much as blaming Mohammad for 9/11.
Another ridiculous, oft-repeated myth about marijuana: it's a "gateway drug."
[ January 03, 2008, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: erosomniac ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I hope you continue in your effort to be free of tobacco, Avadaru.
Re: gateway drug
I'd say it's more like blaming Saddam Hussein for 9/11. Once one is in touch with purveyors of illegal substances, the chances of being offered something different increase. Of course, a lot of pot and LSD sellers wouldn't mingle with hard drug dealers, but they could probably hook you up if you asked.
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
I also disagree with the theory that marijuana is a gateway drug. I tried marijuana for the first time because I was curious about it. I have tried other, harder drugs for the exact same reason - curiosity about their effects. The fact that I smoke pot had absolutely nothing to do with my experimentation with other substances - it just so happened that I was exposed to pot before any other drugs. And I don't do any hard drugs anymore - experimentation was all it was, and I don't intend to do them again. I feel that there is a definite strong danger in using drugs like meth and ecstasy, whereas with marijuana I don't feel like I'm putting myself at a high level of risk.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:I know someone who died as a result of smoking pot, so that sentence is definitely not a lie. You are mistakenly assuming that overdosing is the only way drugs can kill someone. The person I know died because smoking pot eventually led him to more serious drugs, which eventually led him to severe addiction, which eventually led him to suicide.
If you can find me even ONE study that shows a causal relationship between marijuana and other drug use, then this might merit--say, about as much as blaming Mohammad for 9/11.
Another ridiculous, oft-repeated myth about marijuana: it's a "gateway drug."
Not only that, but you can always backtrack from whatever 'disaster event' to some prime mover -- why decide that pot smoking was the first domino? I mean, if causal relationships are what you're using for evidence you may as well keep going.
Why does someone smoke in the first place? Peer pressure, boredom, curiosity, not enough hugs as a child? What causes those things? What causes the things that cause those things?
Posted by krynn (Member # 524) on :
ok, i actually kind of agree with the 'gateway drug' theory. many people that get high for the first time, are doing it with marijuana. some of these people enjoy the high so much that they are more willing to try harder drugs to see what a new high would be like. and like what pooka said, most people that sell pot, are very likely to be able to get other stuff, or even promote it to you.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Avadaru: I feel that there is a definite strong danger in using drugs like meth and ecstasy, whereas with marijuana I don't feel like I'm putting myself at a high level of risk.
Ecstasy isn't really in the same class as meth though, is it? In terms of the danger it presents, I mean. I had thought that a lot of the dangers it was said to possess were just the product of fearmongering, rather than scientific study. There's the danger of dehydration, of course, and as with any drug there's the danger of its being cut with toxic substances, and I seem to remember something about increased levels of depression in people who used it habitually, but I admit that I haven't been particularly focused on it, so I could easily have missed some studies.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
I grew up in a Christian home that was radically against alcohol. There are any number of alcoholics among my family.
My mom saw me drink alcohol for the first time at a wedding. Afterwards, she wanted to have a huge discussion about it.
She said "I taught you alcohol was wrong!"
I said, "No, you taught me alcohol was scary. It isn't, and I'm not going to live my life like it is."
There are things that can kill you, and there are things that can destroy your life.
Lung cancer from smoking kills you. Meth addiction destroys your life. So does alcoholism.
One does something that was inevitable anyways. One destroys everything good.
Most of North America's drug hysteria is based on nothing other than fear. Get over it, North America. The drugs won the war, and I'm cheering for them as they mop up.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
You're right, Noemon, but people tend to group all the synthetic drugs together.
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
Noemon, they are very different drugs with differing effects on the body and mind. I just used them as examples of harder drugs that I consider to be much more dangerous than marijuana.
Posted by Cr1spy (Member # 8407) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:I know someone who died as a result of smoking pot, so that sentence is definitely not a lie. You are mistakenly assuming that overdosing is the only way drugs can kill someone. The person I know died because smoking pot eventually led him to more serious drugs, which eventually led him to severe addiction, which eventually led him to suicide.
If you can find me even ONE study that shows a causal relationship between marijuana and other drug use, then this might have merit--say, about as much as blaming Mohammad for 9/11.
Another ridiculous, oft-repeated myth about marijuana: it's a "gateway drug."
I can give you all of the anecdotal information you want. I run a recovery program for men. Almost every client, with an addiction to something other than alcohol, that has entered our program in the past 5 years has started with alcohol and then Marijuana.
Addiction is obviously much larger than whether or not somebody used marijuana at some point in their history. However the prior use of marijuana by hard users cannot be simply ignored.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Tres: You don't think the emotional state behind his suicide is what caused him to smoke MJ and, when that didn't fix him, move on to harder drugs?
You haven't given us much of the story to work with.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Cr1spy: that isn't even very much anecdotal evidence. There is no doubt that those who might use hard drugs are more likely to use less hard drugs as well, and that someone likely to use drugs is likely to start with more readily available and socially acceptable drugs. Alcohol is more available and socially acceptable than marijuana. Marijuana is more available and socially acceptable than harder drugs such as heroin and cocaine.
The gateway drug question is, if you took the same person and created an identical alternate universe, then in one universe somehow prevented them from ever obtaining marijuana, while in the other allowing them to acquire it like normal, would they be more likely to use hard drugs in the universe they tried marijuana.
I think the answer is yes, actually, but I also think that this is due to issues of access and habituation, not anything about marijuana (test with any other illegal drug as the 'gateway'), and that any remaining effect would be practically nonexistent (and probably on the same order of magnitude as the effect of personality type). I think that most of marijuana's gateway drug properties, what little it has, would be removed if it became legal.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cr1spy: However the prior use of marijuana by hard users cannot be simply ignored.
Nope, it sure can't. But you should remember the hatrack debate thread motto: Correlation does not equal causation.
There could be many reasons why alcohol, nicotine, and marijuana are typically the first drugs people try. I'll give you a few. They're the easiest to get. They're also (arguably, in the case of alcohol) the least likely to kill you on first use. Alcohol and tobacco are regulated, so you don't have to worry about getting a bad batch like you do with harder drugs, and marijuana is natural, so you can be fairly certain it's not mixed with anything*.
Also, there's a selection bias present in your anecdotal evidence: people who are predisposed to altering their consciousness for whatever reason.
*fairly certain, but not positive. Marijuana in bud form can be laced with things, but I doubt it's very common and it's not for the same reasons are other controlled substances are (usually to make them weigh out heavier or to lessen the purity -- both done to maximize profit).
Edit: Aaand, fugu beat me to it by scant seconds.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Noemon, they are very different drugs with differing effects on the body and mind. I just used them as examples of harder drugs that I consider to be much more dangerous than marijuana.
Actual MDMA is not "much more dangerous" than THC. They are pretty much in the same category of "not very dangerous at all". However, pills commonly labeled as "ecstasy" very often have other drugs (like methamphetamines, which actually are very dangerous) included. An "ecstasy" pill may not even include any MDMA, and may be the more dangerous PMA.
My own opinion is that Marijuana is only a gateway drug because it is illegal. Currently, the same person who gets you pot can likely get you the harder stuff, or hook you up with someone who can. If it was sold at Walmart, I don't think there would be much connection at all.
[ January 03, 2008, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Cr1spy, a very good summary of the problems of anecdotal evidence can be found in ClaudiaTherese's first post on this page (sorry to not be linking you directly to her post. For some reason it's not working for me when I try to do that. I'm sure I'm just typing something wrong when I'm doing it, though).
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
They sell Robitussin at Walmart, and recreational use of it is still stigmatized.
What are the benefits of marijuana for people with glaucoma, anyway?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: They sell Robitussin at Walmart, and recreational use of it is still stigmatized.
Is anyone arguing that Robitussin is a gateway drug?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:Is anyone arguing that Robitussin is a gateway drug?
I believe I am. But I think alcohol is the main gateway drug in terms of someone finding out what it is like to be "buzzed".
P.S. Starsnuffer, getting back to your first post, it would depend on a lot of factors. Is this person underage? Is drinking and drugs against her professed religion? I have to figure that the answer to at least one of these questions is "yes" or you wouldn't be asking. If she's at a transition in life, being a good friend will be a greater gift for her than passing judgment. If it comes to a point that you worry about getting mixed up in it by association, then the friendship may be affected.
[ January 03, 2008, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: I believe I am. But I think alcohol is the main gateway drug in terms of someone finding out what it is like to be "buzzed".
You're not serious, are you?
DXM is such a powerful, dangerous psychoactive that I'd class it as significantly more dangerous than LSD, shrooms, ecstacy and marijuana combined. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Well, I'm just going by things that were countenanced by my primary source of anecdotes, which was a guy I dated for about two years bridging high school and college. He didn't think a DXM trip was worth the taste, and he much preffered mellowing agents. He didn't try ecstasy while we were together, though he thought it sounded cool.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:Tres: You don't think the emotional state behind his suicide is what caused him to smoke MJ and, when that didn't fix him, move on to harder drugs?
You haven't given us much of the story to work with.
I don't intend to put the personal details of other people's lives on a public forum like this. But it was pretty clear that the drugs were the leading factor in his downfall, by far.
I really don't think you'd have to search very hard to find countless similar stories. I'm no expert, so I have no studies to cite and the ones I can imagine would only demonstrate correlation, but the anecdotal evidence seems pretty overwhelming. I think it would take some pretty difficult rationalization to try and argue that the seemingly strong tendency of marijuana users to have problems is not caused in part by the marijuana use.
There is, of course, the question of whether legalizing it would make things better or worse. I really don't know, but I also don't think that's the question here. The question is for each individual person, given that it is illegal and has the effects it does, are the benefits worth the personal and ethical costs? I really don't see how it can be.
I will say one addition thing though: The fellow I knew who committed suicide was not a bad person. And I don't think Starsnuffer's friend's use of marijuana a couple of times makes her a bad person either. Even if I do think it is a mistake, it doesn't by itself prevent her from being a nice person who acts well and gets good grades. But I do think it makes things more difficult for her, and is one small step down a path that is good neither for her nor for those who end up being effected by her decisions.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: The only reason I don't smoke pot any more is because of it's illegality.
I think that is the most important thing to remember if you having a discussion comparing alcohol to marijuana. Alcohol = legal (if consumed at home, not driving, etc.) Pot use is not. So you have to be prepared to deal with the consequences of either action before you try either.
I don't use either, however, I did when I was younger. My only input on the 'marijuana is a gateway drug' argument, is that to me it seemed to have to do with peers. Pot itself would not make me want to try "harder" drugs (actually, I didn't like pot much); however using pot puts you in the company of other drug users; and that company brings about peer pressure to try harder drugs, bigger highs, etc. Because pot is illegal and you have to associate with illegal dealers to get it, it will put you in the peer group of people who use many other substances besides pot, and that alone increases your chances of trying something else.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I don't see a strong tendency of marijuana users to have problems anywhere beyond the norm. I've noticed a strong tendency for people to have problems, particularly young people.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Farmgirl: that's definitely something I see as well, and a strong argument for legalizing pot, IMO.
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
I Don't think of her doing it as a terribly big deal, but I can't help but have the feeling that it's at least slightly irresponsible to do drugs like that, at least on a regular basis. Like if you put pros against cons... I don't know. The evidence seems to be overwhelming that while marijuana isn't Good for you, and excessive use probably isn't good, it's not inherently dangerous (aside from doing stupid stuff while high, which (shockingly to me) hasn't been brought up much in this thread yet..). At the same time it seems like I can live without it, and my body certainly doesn't NEED it, and it's just an unnecessary risk to do it.
Eh... Then the whole issue arises of what's worth doing at all--I can hang out with my friends and we'll have fun without drugs, but were we to drink or something would it be "better."
I just can't come up with any really compelling arguments in either direction on the subject, but the "stay out of that can of worms" side seems to make more sense.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I agree with erosomniac and JT's excellent posts.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Starsnuffer: At the same time it seems like I can live without it, and my body certainly doesn't NEED it, and it's just an unnecessary risk to do it.
Like eating fast food. Yet if a friend of mine wants to eat fast food every day I don't think he's a bad person for it.
Ultimately you'll have to decide where you'll draw the line for your friends, and where you'll draw the line for yourself.
There are lots of things that people routinely do that aren't good for you, and lots more that aren't a good idea. Most people do plenty of stuff that's illegal, too, even if inadvertently, by the time it's all said and done.
If I was to give my high school-self some advice on drug and alcohol use from my future-self, that advice would be education and moderation.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:The evidence seems to be overwhelming that while marijuana isn't Good for you, and excessive use probably isn't good, it's not inherently dangerous (aside from doing stupid stuff while high, which (shockingly to me) hasn't been brought up much in this thread yet..).
What, like sitting on babies and smothering them or accidentally setting the house on fire? I haven't really run into many instances of that. Pot doesn't impair judgment, it alters mood. I guess there is a stereotype that people find things funnier when they are on pot.
P.S. I was never around my boyfriend when he used.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Starsnuffer: (aside from doing stupid stuff while high, which (shockingly to me) hasn't been brought up much in this thread yet..).
Well, in my experience (I don't know if I've said this in this conversation yet or not, but my experience with pot consists primarily of hanging out with other people who were smoking it. I have tried it , but it was years after most of my friends did (and now many years ago), and something I only did a few times), the stupid stuff people do when high consists primarily of disjointed conversations about the nature of time (and so forth) and over-eating. Generally, pot isn't a drug that motivates people to get out and do stuff while they're high. I can't point you to any studies that confirm a relative lack of activity while stoned, but I'd expect that they're out there.
quote:At the same time it seems like I can live without it, and my body certainly doesn't NEED it, and it's just an unnecessary risk to do it.
Oh, sure, you don't need it at all. And there's certainly a lot to be said for sobriety. In general I vastly prefer it to intoxication.
quote:Eh... Then the whole issue arises of what's worth doing at all--I can hang out with my friends and we'll have fun without drugs, but were we to drink or something would it be "better."
Nah, it'd just be different. And I know that I usually had a pretty good time being unintoxicated while hanging out with people who were stoned. It's not like you have to do it in order to have fun with those people. If I were you I'd pass on the stuff, myself. There's certainly no harm in not doing it.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Star, as I said in my first post and as others have subsequently repeated, the ethics of responsible drug & alcohol use are entirely subjective and personal. All I can suggest is that you get educated about the substances in question, then use that information to make your own decision about yourself and your friend. You keep asking for a "compelling argument," but there are compelling arguments on both sides of the spectrum, depending on how well they fit with your own personal philosophy, morals, beliefs, etc.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I think it's going too far to say they are entirely subjective. I mean, whether to drink and drive could be considered part of the ethics of responsible drug & alcohol use, and some folks think it's fine to drive if they "feel okay." But their perception of their condition is dependent on their condition.
Pot's effects are more subtle, but I think there can be harm in being made to feel good despite one's situation.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I think it's going too far to say they are entirely subjective. I mean, whether to drink and drive could be considered part of the ethics of responsible drug & alcohol use,
Do you know anyone that would call drinking and driving responsible drug use?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
She just said "some folks think it's fine if they 'feel okay'." And unfortunately I have met some of them who "feel okay" so they drive while they are obviously impaired (at least, obviously once they get in the car.)
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
So, I'm confused. pooka's establishing that people vary in their opinion on whether drinking and driving is responsible in order to support her statement, "I think it's going too far to say they are entirely subjective?"
What?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
No. She's saying people may think they are entirely subjective, but most of us would say that those people are irresponsible, and that standards for that kind of behavior should be objective, so the rest of us aren't subject to drunk drivers.
At least, that's how I read it.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:Do you know anyone that would call drinking and driving responsible drug use?
Normally I wouldn't have thought so, but I saw a bit of that going on this last weekend. I didn't count anyone's drinks, but I thought the idea was that if you drink at all, you shouldn't drive, and yet there were people driving. I asked the hostess and she said "He hasn't had anything in two hours". I didn't know there were rules like that.
I'm also not sure, but I think advocating illegal drug use might be a violation of the TOS.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:So, I'm confused. pooka's establishing that people vary in their opinion on whether drinking and driving is responsible in order to support her statement, "I think it's going too far to say they are entirely subjective?"
People having varying opinions about a topic does not mean that the topic is subjective.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
When you're talking about ethics? Sorry, but yes, yes it does.
quote:Normally I wouldn't have thought so, but I saw a bit of that going on this last weekend. I didn't count anyone's drinks, but I thought the idea was that if you drink at all, you shouldn't drive, and yet there were people driving. I asked the hostess and she said "He hasn't had anything in two hours". I didn't know there were rules like that.
The general estimate is that you can process the alcohol from one alcoholic drink (12 oz beer, 4 oz glass of wine, 1.5 oz 80 proof alcohol, IIRC) in one hour, which obviously varies by person.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Normally I wouldn't have thought so, but I saw a bit of that going on this last weekend. I didn't count anyone's drinks, but I thought the idea was that if you drink at all, you shouldn't drive, and yet there were people driving. I asked the hostess and she said "He hasn't had anything in two hours". I didn't know there were rules like that.
It depends on how much you weigh, whether you have a fast or slow metabolism, what you have been drinking, etc. There are lots of charts out there with general guidelines; I think one beer takes 1/4 the time to metabolize as one cocktail, etc. Googling for it would probably come up with some pretty reliable charts. Of course for some people the charts are not accurate; they may not be safe for longer, or they may be ready faster. But they're decent general guidelines.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I'm also not sure, but I think advocating illegal drug use might be a violation of the TOS.
Was this random, or did I miss someone advocating illegal drug use?
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
I think you get in a sticky situation whenever you talk about drug use in general on a forum, especially if people are relating personal experiences. Guess it depends on how you define "advocate".
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:When you're talking about ethics? Sorry, but yes, yes it does.
Sorry, but no, no it doesn't.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
I'm sorry, I keep forgetting that moral absolutionists exist, because that attitude is so far outside my range of thinking that I have trouble conceiving of people actually believing it.
Edit: language quibble.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
You should work on that. It's a particularly useful trait for a subjectivist.
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
Smoking marijuana has never once inspired me to go out and "do something stupid". In fact, it usually inspires me to do nothing at all - when I smoke, I like to sit on the couch with my dogs and watch TV. Sometimes when I smoke I get artistically inspired and pick up a paintbrush, which I hardly consider harmful. I have never heard of any incidents where marijuana was solely responsible for impairing someone's actions to the point that they were injured or injured someone else. Can't really say the same for alcohol, and yet it's completely legal...hmmm.....
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:My guess is that the reason for that is more psychological than chemical; drug use distracts one from the more meaningful pursuits in life, and instead focuses one on mere means of contentment - and very dangerous means at that.
If this is a justification for the illegality of marijuana, television should be extraordinarily more illegal than pot.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Now I'm wondering what extraordinary illegality would consist of . . .
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I think that it'd mean that at random intervals a guard would show up outside your cell and shout "what were you thinking?" in an angry, accusitory tone.
[Edit--on holidays and birthdays they'd have relatives show up and do the shouting]
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Certainly the punishments for dealing in televisions would have to be pretty harsh, but not as bad as the life sentences imposed on Blizzard Entertainment.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Perhaps not only is it illegal but Judge Judy personally walks to your door and punches you in the gut Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
quote: I think it would take some pretty difficult rationalization to try and argue that the seemingly strong tendency of marijuana users to have problems is not caused in part by the marijuana use.
I'm surprised to hear this from you Tres, given your normal thought processes.
The obvious answer is that you only hear about the "marijuana users who have problems". The marijuana users who don't have problems for the most part go around minding their own business and living productive lives.
In certain geographic areas, (I'm thinking of several areas specifically in California, one being Santa Cruz) I think you'd find regular marijuana usage rates exceeding 60% and the majority of the population still living productive lives.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Actually, BannaOj, Tres's stance in this thread is consistent with his stance in the alcohol thread. Guess Tres is just really opposed to anything that gets you high.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
The stance is consistent but not precisely the logic. (although I should go back and re-read it to double check, while he made a strong statement, it didn't bother me like this one did)
Even though his logic may be occasionally convoluted or hard to follow I normally don't find that glaring of a fallacy in most of his statements, even when I strongly disagree with his opinion.
It would be interesting to have him become Xaposert and argue the other side on this one, precisely because it is against his personal beliefs.
AJ
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
None of you has mentioned Hatcrack, the most addictive drug known.
Posted by DevilDreamt (Member # 10242) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: Actually, BannaOj, Tres's stance in this thread is consistent with his stance in the alcohol thread. Guess Tres is just really opposed to anything that gets you high.
Too bad he wasn't around to give you advise on those wax wings. "Kids, just say no to drugs and alcohol, and flying to close to the sun."
I've tried pot exactly 6 times. I tried it out of curiosity, and I hated it every time (except for the last time, when I didn't get very high at all, that was kind of pleasant).
My understanding is that pot is a little different for everyone. I've never heard of anyone blacking out from pot, although it's a pretty common occurrence with alcohol. That's important to me, that you remember the things you say and do while stoned.
Anyway, pot may not be for you. The first five times I got high, this was the progression (with ratings!).
Step one: Reality seems fake, surreal, like you're watching television. I feel very detached from my surroundings. If I stare at something (or someone) for too long, I start to lose my identity and believe that I am whatever I happen to be observing. Somewhat enjoyable, but confusing. C+
Step two: Time slows way down. I get worried that I won't be able to have a conversation with someone because the pauses in between each word seem to stretch over huge chasms of time, and holding one word in my mind to connect it to the next feels like an epic task. Eventually, the passage of time becomes so slow I start to worry that I'm going to grow old and die before they get to the next word. This might be some sort of paranoia, I'm not sure. E-
Step three: Time starts to become normal, only now it's like I can feel every single cell in my body, and they're all slowly dieing. Warning: Don't mix pot with alcohol. Alcohol with pot at this step makes it feel like I'm aware of every cell in my body, and they are all on fire. F
Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
The line between illegal and legal drugs is purely arbitrary anyway. Coffee, alcohol, medication - it's all drugs.
It's just that because it's legal, it's kinda not a drug in the mindset of the conservative population.
We've all seen drunken kids out of control and god knows I've been there myself more than once.
I'm not sure if this has been posted here before or of any refuting studies - I'm sure they'll crop up here pretty soon, this being Hatrack
I believe marijuana should be legalised, along with MDMA and perhaps a couple of other low-level drugs.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
I personally have a huge problem with drugs that are used for recreation and creativity. I feel that using them detracts from your ability to reach those states naturally - all of which can be attained naturally. I believe they make you weaker.
A lot of artistic people use them as a crutch for experiencing a trance state or going to a creative sphere, and the more they become dependent on that vehicle, the less likely they will be to develop the means to create or trance without assistance.
I have never used marijuana, and all of my friends that began smoking it on a semi-regular basis got noticeably stupider. Fuzzy around the edges, and out of focus. This was when they were sober, but had been smoking up for at least a month. My boyfriend at the time started suffering from significant memory loss, not to mentioned became incredibly apathetic in general.
These specific convictions came from years of experience with people that started using drugs while we were close, or had been using them as crutch for a long time. I am sure several other people have reasons why they are okay with drug use, or just ambivalent, but I absolutely hate them. I also can't stand being around most people when they are high or drunk, without initially knowing that they are inebriated. Gah, my OTHER ex-boyfriend is such a tool when he's been smoking up.
However, I'm also legalizing marijuana, and lowering the legal drinking age. I think smoking pot is pretty stupid, but prosecuting people over the act itself is also a big fat waste of time.
Edit: I cannot legalize any of those things. I, however, am okay with legislature doing so.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by porcelain girl: However, I'm also legalizing marijuana, and lowering the legal drinking age...
Edit: I cannot legalize any of those things.
Tease.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
I smoke weed sometimes. I think that there are a lot of misconceptions about its effects on the body and how it affects people socially. People say that it causes peoples grades to slip, lose friends, etc. but none of that is true. I'm getting As and Bs, am a varsity member of the school wrestling team, have many close friends, and am in the schools gifted education classe. I may smoke weed, but it doesn't interfere with the rest of my life. I don't only hang out with kids that smoke weed, and I don't do any other drugs. I don't even drink that much. In my opinion, getting drunk is ten times worse that smoking weed because being inebriated can make people do crazy and monstrous things while being high just sorta makes the person chill for a bit. Let's look at it this way; you drink at parties with tons of drunken people are around; you smoke when you're home alone with a couple close friends while watching a movie or just talking about what's going on in your life. The fact that I can smoke weed, AND stay in shape for wrestling says something about its 'health' affects.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
And I've heard it causes double posting. =)
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
Lol that's cause I misclicked on my mouse and thought I was editing when I was quoting. I always post and then edit because I find it easier to read for mistakes without that annoying scroll bar.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I frequently double post by accidentally hitting the quote key too, and I don't do weed.
If weed were legal, though, would people still smoke it in small, private groups, or would they be more likely to add weed to the party scene, thus doing away with that benefit?
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
I think weed is already a part of the party scene and it's just that people are much more hesitant to try weed than to drink for some reason. At parties people want to dance and make out and things, and drinking and ecstasy fit more into that type of role than weed does.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Seriously, I'm very surprised there are so few antis on this thread.
I think drugs are terrible. And yes I agree that alcohol is just as bad.
But marijuana definitely changed many of my hs friends from bright people with lots of plans into lotus-eater types who worked at low-paying jobs and stayed high as much of the time as they possibly could. The guy who finished first in my sister's hs class, who made a perfect score on his ACT, she saw not too long ago working in the parking lot of her office building downtown. Probably because it's a job that lets him smoke dope on the job. Also it's not very demanding, so you can do it while extremely high.
Here are some more real life stories of people I know. One friend smoked a lot, and so to keep it from being a total financial drain began to buy more than he needed, and sell to friends. Then he got arrested and spent 5 years in jail. When he got out, his former bosses decided he owed them the money for the last kilo they'd sent which the police had confiscated. No way he as an ex-convict could make enough at a regular job to pay them back quickly. So he began to deal again because .... this is the punch line... he FEARED FOR HIS LIFE if he didn't pay them back.
In other words, one day you could be sitting around his trailer enjoying a joint after you stopped by to pick up your lid or whatever and his bosses, the mafia dudes who sell to him, could break in and shoot everyone because he didn't pay.
So when you participate in the illegal drug culture, know the people you're connecting yourself with. They are utter sleazebags who make their living off the ruin of other people's lives, and kill young kids who don't assume all the risk for a business that only they make much money in. Why do drug dealers live with their moms? It's because you don't make money as a dealer.
So even if you're only a user, you still have to swing by the dealer's house to pick up your illegal substances, whatever they may be. That place is a place of business for the mafia.
Another guy I know, the son of a friend of my family's, got involved with drug people and one day his father got a call "Tell your son to move home now, if you want him to live." Very serious sounding. He begged his son to move home but he refused. Next month he was murdered. That's all of the story we know.
Next, illegal drugs, including marijuana, are often laced with stuff. You don't know what they're laced with or in what strength. It used to be a favorite thing to do to cut in grass clippings with the weed, then lace it with PCP or something so the people still get high and don't complain. PCP caused one guy I know, a very calm peaceful sort of guy (he smoked dope all the time, so.... yeah), caused him to cut his five cats apart limb from limb while they were still alive and throw them in the bathtub. He was prosecuted for it and went to jail for animal cruelty. PCP makes people do crazy stuff that they would never do. All kinds of drugs are laced with other drugs and you never know what you're getting.
Another son of my parents' friends died of a cocaine overdose in his thirties. When we were in hs he started out drinking and smoking weed. Later on that didn't do it for him any more so he got into cocaine.
These are true stories of people I've known in my life.
Another guy I knew drank too much and fell off a ladder at his construction job, and became a paraplegic. Yet another guy I knew through my work got drunk once and fell off a balcony at a party and his face got all smushed. They thought he was going to die but he lived with much plastic surgery and hospital time. His mother signed her life away to pay for it because he didn't have insurance. 10 years later she's still making payments on his face. She doesn't make much money and what should have gone toward her retirement and to build up her family's prosperity, pay for education, etc, instead is still paying off his accident.
I can think of another dozen or so stories without even touching on alcoholism in my extended family, and all the damage that has caused to the family connections. It reverberates through the generations. I absolutely hate drugs and alcohol.
So, yeah, the picture of a dope smoker in my mind is someone from the lower middle class or lower class who has a blue collar job, or minimum wage job, and will never advance. He has everything he needs. He gets paid on Friday night and kicks back with a case of beer and enough dope to keep him high until Monday morning. His four kids were exposed to drugs and alcohol in the womb by all of their mothers, his girlfriends, and are now wards of the state.
Drugs are for people who aren't very intelligent. They're for losers and screw-ups. You all are smarter than that. You all have brains. You should say no thank you when that stuff is passed around at a party. The smartest thing you'll ever do is put all that money, all that alcohol and tobacco and drug money, into something positive like school. Invest in yourself, don't invest in tearing yourself down. You are too smart for that.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
FTR, I AM against drugs (including alcohol and tobacco.)
But I didn't feel like elaborating on that in this thread.
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
"accidentally setting the house on fire"
A semi-friend of mine's brother apparently DID do just that. Alcohol and posssibly other drugs were involved though. All I really know is that her parents came home to a burnt up house.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Pot doesn't impair judgment, it alters mood. I guess there is a stereotype that people find things funnier when they are on pot.
I do think this stereotype is mostly true, but I think it's an effect of something else. funny things become funnier. but action movies are more intense. sci-fi movies are cooler. philosophical conversations are more interesting. I think it just puts you in a state where you're really into whatever it is in front of you. be it tv or something more active. I've smoked and gone out hiking, played frisbee, cleaned and organized, worked out, gone out to social events, even gotten a lot of work done whether it be programming or writing an essay(which I would do very well on). It helps me focus(or used to). Normally I sit down to do work and i'm constantly distracted, looking around the room, playing with things on my desk, messing around on the internet, etc...whereas I could smoke just a little bit and work for hours completely undistracted. Though I fully admit that pot affects me differently from many other people. And one of the reasons i smoke so much less now is because whether it's from years of smoking or just age, i'm more naturally in the state that pot used to put me in. So I don't really need it or crave it as much.
I smoke similarly to how Avadaru does. Though less often now. I used to smoke a lot in college. And then even after college I would smoke every day, but in a similar fashion to how someone has a beer or two. I wouldn't get stoned. I would call it mildly high or buzzed. One or two puffs as opposed to whole joint or bowl. I probably smoked 1/5 of how much i used to in college and now 1/2 if not even less than what i used to a year ago. I drink probably 1/15 of how much i used to as I lost almost all interest in the feeling and loss of decision making and control that comes with being drunk.
Tatiania, I have some issues with your post. Besides the fact that the stories are anecdotal, many of them are a direct result of the illegality of marijuana, and not the dangers of the drug itself. But really, I can offer just as many stories of friends of mine who smoke and are investment bankers on wall street, who work for google and are taking a year off of work to travel around the world, who work on big government contracts and travel around the world as well(publishing photography on the side). Friends who work engineering jobs and play in bands on the side because they love to play music, friends who own their own companies, and many of my friends who work at the DOD job that I used to work at. I can honestly go on and on.
My point is not that pot is good and everyone should smoke it. My point is that we can all offer up stories supporting both sides. You can't blame pot for the fact that someone didn't do anything with their life. Just like you can't blame television, or video games, or coffee, or a relationship, or anything else. Would i be more productive if the internet didn't exist? No, I'd procrastinate in some other fashion. Do those things make it easier to indulge in those bad habits? Yes. But taking away tv, or marijuana from someone won't solve their problems(if they have any).
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: My own opinion is that Marijuana is only a gateway drug because it is illegal. Currently, the same person who gets you pot can likely get you the harder stuff, or hook you up with someone who can. If it was sold at Walmart, I don't think there would be much connection at all.
Exactly. Or what fugu said.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Thanks for those links Troubadour. It's amazing just how damn effective the smear campaign against MDMA has been. It's nice to see some more ammunition to combat the misinformation out there. I see it in hatrack threads every time drugs are mentioned.
Not so bad this time, but I've seen several "marijuana is safe, but ecstasy can kill you the first time you use it!" or "holes in your brain! It cooks your brain!" or a variation of this several times since I've been here. All I can do is shake my head and try to correct them as best I can.
[ January 03, 2008, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: All kinds of drugs are laced with other drugs and you never know what you're getting.
And all rectangles are squares!
quote:So, yeah, the picture of a dope smoker in my mind is someone from the lower middle class or lower class who has a blue collar job, or minimum wage job, and will never advance. He has everything he needs. He gets paid on Friday night and kicks back with a case of beer and enough dope to keep him high until Monday morning. His four kids were exposed to drugs and alcohol in the womb by all of their mothers, his girlfriends, and are now wards of the state.
This is a pretty silly POV, given the amount of data showing you're wrong.
The Report of the National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse. Lots of interesting demographic data, but of particular interest is this: "Use is found in all socioeconomic groups and occupations, though slightly more predominant among persons with above-average incomes."
quote:Drugs are for people who aren't very intelligent. They're for losers and screw-ups. You all are smarter than that. You all have brains.
Since it's been admitted by many people in this thread that they either did or still do use drugs, you're contradicting yourself. Which is it?
I won't even touch the steaming pile of anecdotes.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
Conversation had with a past boyfriend that upped the ante on my anti-drug status:
Porce: I really don't feel comfortable with you and your friends driving right after smoking up. Boy: I'm fine when I'm high. Porce: You don't think it affects your reaction time or anything like that?" Boy: Are you kidding? I'm faster when I'm high! Porce: Oh, so it isn't your perception that changes-- you just get faster. Boy: Whatever. Porce: You're a lot easier to beat up that way, in any case.
It wasn't until one of my bff's watched a video tape of he and his friends getting high that he decided to quit. He was thoroughly disgusted.
I accept this isn't the case for everyone that uses marijuana, and that it's illegal status perpetuates social problems dealing with the drug trade. But I also hate imagining parents of small children smoking up because pot is so often accepted as less dangerous and less habit forming (haven't known any of my close friends that weren't addicted) than alcohol. I don't know. It makes me uncomfortable. But as I touched upon in my initial post, all drugs used beyond medical correction make me deeply uncomfortable.
I liked being in total focus, all the time. I like disciplining my self so that I can make my entire body and mind relax, kick start, or create, sans paraphernalia.
Anyway. That's a portion of my opinion on the subject.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
The illegality is part of it, for now. I'm actually not opposed to legalizing it. I think smart people will avoid it, anyway. And what I'm saying about those on this thread is that they're totally too smart to be doing such a stupid thing, and they should certainly rethink it. Seriously. If I'm the first person who has ever said this then it's high time someone did (so to speak).
Seriously, you claim my knowledge is only anecdotal, but it's like a HUGE number of anecdotes that I've seen. I haven't even begun to tell you the whole list. And it has repeated itself my whole life long, for dozens and dozens of people I've known, from high school through college, young adulthood, middle age, not to mention my family going back a couple of generations. I don't see all these successful, happy drug users, either. I see lots of bleak lives limited and cut short. Or like that one guy who was successful and happy as a cocaine using executive in his late 20s and dead of an overdose in his early 30s.
Drugs indeed are for dummies. They're a trap placed for you by unscrupulous people who want to profit from damage to your wellbeing. You all are too smart to be doing something so stupid as falling in that trap. I've never been more serious or certain of anything in my life.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I don't see that Tatiana's anecdotes are less valuable than the many positive anecdotes about drug use that have marched through this thread.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Drugs indeed are for dummies. They're a trap placed for you by unscrupulous people who want to profit from damage to your wellbeing. You all are too smart to be doing something so stupid as falling in that trap. I've never been more serious or certain of anything in my life.
What if I was growing my own marijuana? What if it was grown by a friend of mine who was giving it to me for free? There is no grand conspiracy of drug pushers trying to milk us for all we're worth. And if there is, they are not different from any other business trying to maximize profit.
If you seriously think smart people avoid drugs then either your definition of smart is wildly different from mine, or you very misinformed about the pot smoking population of this country.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
How are you not seeing all the damage and fallout? It's everywhere that drugs are used. Could it be you've separated cause from effect in your mind somehow? Sort of the way we don't quit eating after widespread food poisoning issues because after all we have to eat?
But drugs we don't have to do at all. We pay an enormous human cost for them, and what is the return? So far as I can see it's nothing at all. It's "wow, man, what a trip! hehehehe". It's "hey, y'all, watch this! Wooooooohooooooo let's paaaaarty!" That's our big payoff to weigh against the terrible toll in damaged and wasted life.
How intelligent is that?
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: I don't see that Tatiana's anecdotes are less valuable than the many positive anecdotes about drug use that have marched through this thread.
The positive anecdotes in this thread have been largely about being okay despite drug use; no link between the drug and the behavior needs to be demonstrated in order for the statement "I've done/do drugs and am doing well anyway" to be true. Tatiana's anecdotes are all about people who have done drugs and also screwed up their lives somehow; in order to support her conclusion that drugs lead to people who are "lower middle class or lower class who has a blue collar job, or minimum wage job, and will never advance," etc., she needs to demonstrate that the drugs are to blame. She hasn't. She's shown that there's an anecdotal correlation between doing drugs and screwing up your life.
To repeat what JT said:
quote:remember the hatrack debate thread motto: Correlation does not equal causation.
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I don't see all these successful, happy drug users, either. I see lots of bleak lives limited and cut short. Or like that one guy who was successful and happy as a cocaine using executive in his late 20s and dead of an overdose in his early 30s.
How many people living successful, happy lives who use drugs would it take to convince you?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Just the one guy who I don't miss anyway, but still...
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: How are you not seeing all the damage and fallout? It's everywhere that drugs are used. Could it be you've separated cause from effect in your mind somehow?
Could it be that you're not able to separate cause and correlation? You're using extremely tenuous logic and faulty assumptions to get to the 'damage and fallout', IMO. You're starting from your conclusion (Drugs are bad!) and working backwards from there to shoehorn in your anecdotal 'evidence'.
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: But drugs we don't have to do at all. We pay an enormous human cost for them, and what is the return? So far as I can see it's nothing at all. It's "wow, man, what a trip! hehehehe". It's "hey, y'all, watch this! Wooooooohooooooo let's paaaaarty!" That's our big payoff to weigh against the terrible toll in damaged and wasted life.
There's not much in life that we have to do, beyond bodily functions. Things that people routinely do that aren't good for them: overeat, eat poorly, drive too fast, watch too much TV, talk on a cellphone while driving, don't exercise, and spend hours on the internet arguing with people who won't listen to reason. Just to name a few.
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: Drugs are for people who aren't very intelligent. They're for losers and screw-ups. You all are smarter than that. You all have brains.
As someone who's used alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana over the years, I'd like to say that I find this sheltered, alarmist, short-sighted, misinformed view offensive. It's not for you to judge what people choose to do in their free time.
And I'd put my intelligence and that of a handful of my friends who still smoke pot up against anybody's.
Just imagine that if I came into a thread and said, "Religion is for people who aren't very intelligent. It's for losers and screw-ups. You all are smarter than that. You all have brains."
You would be insulted, and rightfully so.
Now, just so no one has to go back a reread my earlier posts, I'll reiterate that I don't do any illegal drugs anymore. I'll also state that I do believe some illegal drugs can be a destructive influence on society. But not the drugs we're talking about here.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I don't agree that social drug use is equivalent to religion. Religion at least purports to encompass one's way of life. The drug culture on the one hand says it's no big deal, but wants the same consideration as a major lifestyle choice.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I never equated the two. You can put any word in ak's statement and it's offensive to those in that group. That's the point I was making.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Quick point, I'm actually marginally on the anti-drug side here (that is, while I am undecided on the issue of legalizing marijuana or similar drugs, I am against using them personally)
JT/Tatiana: However, if you combine the last quote with this one, I would find the implications even more eyebrow raising.
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I think drugs are terrible. And yes I agree that alcohol is just as bad.
As a quick estimate, I would think that the number of people in this thread that drink alcohol would be at least comparable or greater than the number that are religious. However, these "people aren't very intelligent" and may freely be labelled "screw-ups and losers"? C'mon, "just as bad", exaggerate much?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: Seriously, I'm very surprised there are so few antis on this thread.
I think perhaps there are "anti's" here that you aren't seeing. Such as, in my previous post, I did not take a clear FOR or AGAINST stance. I simply stated something I noticed from my younger, more foolish, years.
I'm current anti-use, but mainly because I don't think drugs or alcohol add anything to a happy, productive life. They simply aren't essential for living; and as you said later, smart people usually avoid mind-altering things.
But I'm also not pointing fingers because I went through that stage when I was a user; and I also probably currently have a very strong addiction to coffee, and sugar, so who am I to criticize the drug uses of others?
However, the illegal aspect of drug use is still a huge factor in my mind. If coffee ever became illegal, I would quit in a heartbeat. I simply don't want to cross that line.
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
quote:Drugs are for people who aren't very intelligent. They're for losers and screw-ups. You all are smarter than that. You all have brains.
I find this pretty insulting, Tatiana. Maybe you have had some bad personal experiences regarding drugs, but that hardly gives you the right to make judgments on my intelligence based on your opinions. I'm not a stupid person. I'm not the smartest person in the world, and I don't always make the best choices, but my decision to smoke marijuana is MY choice, and I don't think I am any less intelligent than you for doing so. My boyfriend is 32, smokes pot every day, holds a steady job (and has for 13 years), makes a VERY decent amount of money, and basically has a great life. His bosses are aware of his drug use and they know that he is a responsible user who has never once come into work stoned or unable to function, and so they're ok with it. My stepfather is a professor at a large university, has written several books, and is well-recognized as an expert in his field. He also smokes marijuana. There's no way I could take seriously anyone who calls him "not very intelligent" or "a loser and screw-up". Drugs are everywhere, and so are the people who use them. And guess what - most of them live normal lives, are intelligent people, and do not let the drugs influence their lives to the point of destruction. I am certainly not advocating drug use - there are many, many drugs that I would not touch because, to me, the risk and danger outweigh the benefits. I'm just tired of all drug users being lumped into one stereotypical group of slackers and idiots.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I always like to bring up that any mood-changing chemical is a "drug", from THC to adrenaline. Caffeine is DEFINITELY a mind-altering drug, one that I choose not to use because it's so addictive. At least marijuana isn't addictive.
norepinephrine, dopamine, serotonin--all mood-altering drugs. Not only for people who aren't very intelligent.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: At least marijuana isn't addictive.
Sure it is.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:Actually, BannaOj, Tres's stance in this thread is consistent with his stance in the alcohol thread. Guess Tres is just really opposed to anything that gets you high.
In a sense, yes.
My position here is actually also directly connected to this thread about what makes a well-lived life. I have said many times in the past that I believe human beings are fundamentally good, and I believe the human spirit is a truly great thing that adds meaning to the world. Accordingly, I think a person who is living life to the fullest is approaching this world with great enthusiasm, with a passion to do great things. In contrast, I think someone who merely seeks contentment in life (and by that I mean the absense of pain or difficulty, as opposed to joy or deeper happiness) and thus takes the easiest path to its end is not living life to the fullest. I do not like the idea of coasting through life, or sleeping through it, or going through life in a daze; I think human beings are greater than that.
That relates to this thread, and the thread on alcohol, because I think alcohol and drugs conflict with the above directly. From what I've seen, drug use or excessive alcohol use in the long run pushes people away from greatness. Often they will say the drug makes them more aware or helps them think more clearly, but always it is dependent on the drug; implicit in their claim is the growing notion that they are dependent on whatever drug it is to be in whatever state they feel they should be in. On top of that, the legal problems, the health problems, and the financial difficulty of paying for their addiction pile on to make it more difficult for them to be the sort of person they are capable of being. You may disagree from your experience, but from what I've seen the net effect seems to be a dampening of the human spirit in the long run. The effect is far greater on those that severely abuse the stuff, and only slight for those who do it in moderation, but it still seems to be there - if their intention is to alter their mental state with it, at least.
Going back to the original quote, I think feeling "high" in the sense that one is elated, or joyful, or extremely happy is an ideal state for us. But I think that experience needs to come from the way we live and approach our lives, not from a temporary chemical fix. I think doing it artificially is, to a large degree, missing the point of life.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert: Sure it is.
I'm fairly certain he meant that THC does not have addictive properties, which is well-covered ground in this thread.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:Originally posted by Javert: Sure it is.
I'm fairly certain he meant that THC does not have addictive properties, which is well-covered ground in this thread.
Serves me right for not reading the thread.
But, as I know people personally who are addicted to marijuana, I thought I could say that.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax:
quote:Actually, BannaOj, Tres's stance in this thread is consistent with his stance in the alcohol thread. Guess Tres is just really opposed to anything that gets you high.
In a sense, yes....
Going back to the original quote, I think feeling "high" in the sense that one is elated, or joyful, or extremely happy is an ideal state for us. But I think that experience needs to come from the way we live and approach our lives, not from a temporary chemical fix. I think doing it artificially is, to a large degree, missing the point of life.
This may be one of the first times I have adamantly agreed with Tres on something. Very well said, Tres.
The majority of my friends that regularly used marijuana were addicted to it. They may not have had a physical addiction to the substance, but they were definitely addicted to *using.* The ones that have quit will readily admit this fact.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Tres,
Your current statement makes more rational sense (to me)than the one I criticized earlier in the thread.
To be clear on my own stance I definitely separate pot from "the rest" of the pile of illegal drugs.
I'm curious as to what you think about legal "brain drugs" such as Ritalin or antidepressants and other mood stabilizers. Please assume (for the purposes of my question) that these are correctly prescribed by a physican and not being abused. Do you oppose them also, because people may be dependent on them in order to think more clearly?
AJ
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
My stance on drugs:
Do not take them personally and do not plan to. Do not want to date anyone who does. Do not care who else does as long as they are not anyone I need to trust while they are under the influence (i.e. the driver).
I think people can do whatever they want in their own homes, up to and including smoking their brains out.
So, posession doesn't need to be illegal.
However, the moment someone does something that affects other people while under the influence of drugs or alchohol, I think that should get the maximum fine possible. Want to get high/drink with friends and take a cab home? Knock yourself out.
Want to do the same and drive home? Go to prison for ten years.
Want to do it and beat your kids? Ditto. Or more.
Want to do it and practice medicine/balance (my) books/drive a forklift/watch over the launch codes? Lose your license or job when appropriate. That isn't okay.
I'd like to see the disincentives for doing anything other than hang out in someone's home while engaging in drugs or alchohol be strong enough that everyone would do their private business in places and circumstances where they can't hurt anyone but themselves.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: However, the moment someone does something that affects other people while under the influence of drugs or alchohol, I think that should get the maximum fine possible. Want to get high/drink with friends and take a cab home? Knock yourself out.
Want to do the same and drive home? Go to prison for ten years.
Want to do it and beat your kids? Ditto. Or more.
Want to do it and practice medicine/balance (my) books/drive a forklift/watch over the launch codes? Lose your license or job when appropriate. That isn't okay.
I'd like to see the disincentives for doing anything other than hang out in someone's home while engaging in drugs or alchohol be strong enough that everyone would do their private business in places and circumstances where they can't hurt anyone but themselves.
Quibbles about details aside, I largely agree with this.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yep. Sounds pretty sensible.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Fourthed!
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:That relates to this thread, and the thread on alcohol, because I think alcohol and drugs conflict with the above directly.
Well, hey. They don't, really. They just can. So can television or video games or excessive book reading.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Yes. Fear the excessive book reading.
Anyway.
Here's my own view, on my personal choices about drugs:
Within my mind I create worlds upon worlds, stories, characters, viewpoints, arguements, thought exercises and ideas.
I have an infinity of worlds in different guises, a vast cornucopia of plots and adventures, all going on concurrently. Characters struggling and heroes battling. Truly, the number is without limit, and I doubt ever will be limited, as long as I live. There's always a new story on the horizon of my mind, regardless of how deep I search.
Furthermore, ideas, feelings, memories and plans all swirl around just as prominantly, with things I've learned, philosophy I'm thinking of, ideas I'm trying to know and understand. My own mind, the most interesting place to explore, where even now I still learn new things, about myself, and the aspects that make up this strange multitude which I call "I".
Questions and puzzles and riddles and paradoxes and games.
And even more. If I wish to feel a feeling, all I have to do is think the right thoughts. All I have to do is will myself to feel them.
With all these worlds and questions arrayed before me, of what use is a drug to artificially alter my mindset? Of what use are hallucinations, when I create stories? Of what use is an emotional high, when my mere thoughts can create plenty exciting moods of my own accord? With my lucidity in hand, I have enough to keep my busy for an eternity.
Why bother, even knowing how intense the potential highs could go? My mind has too many joys already; such a thing will only distract me from it.
(Also, my dad was a druggie, and worse, an alcoholic. Don't think for a second that the negative effects of that on my and my mother's life is not an undercurrent in the reason I avoid things like drugs and gambling. I don't feel some moral outrage at them. Just a mild distaste. Not fun. And I know, at least in part, where this lack of fun comes from.)
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Weird that this should just come up. It's sorta emblematic of the whole attitude the old power brokers have on the nature of marijuana.
quote:A Spanish medical team’s study released in Madrid in February 2000 has shown that tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), the active chemical in marijuana, destroys tumors in lab rats. These findings, however, are not news to the U.S. government. A study in Virginia in 1974 yielded similar results but was suppressed by the DEA, and in 1983 the Reagan/Bush administration tried to persuade U.S. universities and researchers to destroy all cannabis research work done between 1966 and 1976, including compendiums in libraries.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Weird that this should just come up. It's sorta emblematic of the whole attitude the old power brokers have on the nature of marijuana.
quote:A Spanish medical team’s study released in Madrid in February 2000 has shown that tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), the active chemical in marijuana, destroys tumors in lab rats. These findings, however, are not news to the U.S. government. A study in Virginia in 1974 yielded similar results but was suppressed by the DEA, and in 1983 the Reagan/Bush administration tried to persuade U.S. universities and researchers to destroy all cannabis research work done between 1966 and 1976, including compendiums in libraries.
And this is why I don't like the current US attitude regarding pot. The only way to get funding on pot research is to be anti- even though it is pretty clear that there are some exciting possibilities out there.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I was asking myself "Why was marijuana made illegal in the first place?" and I found this page. I knew there was something fishy about it, and it makes sense now.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
I feel like there was a study at some point implying some positive consequences for young people who had used drugs- something about social success or something of the sort. But that was years ago, my memory is vague, and I'm not having any luck finding anything on Google.
I did find this:(study) which, oddly, seems to imply a positive effect on employment/wages over the short term for "soft" drug use.
My own feeling- noting that I haven't smoked marijuana or used other illicit drugs, and rarely consume, let alone over-indulge, in alcohol- is that I wouldn't care that much if a friend occasionally drinks or smokes marijuana, so long as it doesn't endanger them and they don't insist on doing so around me.
If they're a worthwhile person, they're still a worthwhile person if they occasionally smoke pot and drink.
Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
Personally I class smoking marijuana and whiskey in the same way - I like a dram now and again, but not every night, and I certainly don't do a bottle in a sitting.
With reference to your friend Starsnuffer, I shouldn't worry too much.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
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