Lately I involved myself (more than usually) in a few threads and I was told that I come across as rude, from “a little” to “incredibly” range.
I’m realy sorry to hear that, and I ask for your honest opinion abut what you know of me. You can base your answer on the whole history you know of me (all posts) or a particular post or even a word I wrote.
I am ready to see only the “negative” responses, and I wont take anyone’s silence as an “tacit approval”, but rather as “not worth the time to answer”.
Please give me your opinion, with reasons if possible, because it is an important issue for me. If I come across generally, or even lately, as an incurable rude poster, I will have to re-evaluate my presence here and if I really bother many of you, I will try to learn my lesson and probably stay out of your Hatrack life.
A.
edit: thread title
[ January 11, 2008, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: suminonA ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Who are you, again?
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
Hmm, when I registered I would have sworn the standard operating procedure was to inoculate all new members with a grain of salt...
You come across a bit rough at times perhaps, and I've probably missed (or avoided) some of the threads in question, but I certainly don't consider you to be one of the more incredibly rude people I read around here.
EDIT: That came across a lot snarkier than I intended. No, I don't find you to be unusually rude.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
As I said in one of the threads, I think that tone and intent are often misunderstood over the internet. Studies have corroborated this belief to the tune of over 50%. As someone who is often frustrated on these boards when I am misunderstood, misrepresented, or called out on a wording choice that seemed good at the time but might not have been the best, I can sympathize. I have honestly spend half an hour or more going through my wording to still have someone take it badly.
Bearing in mind that you will never be perfect, here are a few suggestions:
quote:Is that the ABSOLUTE TRUTH? How do you know?
CAPS are risky internet behavior. They often symbolize yelling. I find that putting the words in *asterisks* can provide emphasis without coming across as yelling.
Other than that, I wouldn't call this rude. It's challenging and forceful, perhaps, which might feel a little uncomfortable.
But personally, I did not think this was rude. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and took your CAPS to mean emphasis and your forceful statements to be curiosity and an attempt to further the discussion.
quote:Same thing. You give the same declarative sentence, but you are lazy to sustain it with evidence, which is kind of the point of this thread.
Even if someone uses a derogatory word to describe themselves or their actions, it's best to be diplomatic enough not to use that word in response. It's like if a woman complains, "I gained 5 lbs I'm so fat!" The correct response is not, "Yeah, you could lose some weight" *even* if it's true.
Finally,
quote:I too think it would be nice if you could do that better. If my questions bother you, or give you the impression that I try to confuse you or something like that, say so and I’ll stop.
This is a similar situation to the "lazy" one. But in this case, your follow-up remarks and use of a smiley reduced the impact and made it clear to me that even if your words weren't perfect, your intent was good.
**************
I didn't really pay attention to you before today, so I don't have anything else to offer. I thought some of the reactions to your posts were a bit over the top, but like I said, I like to give the benefit of the doubt.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I think you are or have been trying to engage the community at a different level than many of the posters here, and that is why you sometimes come across as rude. You seem to have a strong desire to control how much about yourself you “let out” – creating a persona which, although (I assume) true, is only part of yourself. The gender thing is an example. Now there are people here who I don’t know what gender they are, and if you’d just left it at that and not commented it wouldn’t be a problem. But you’ve made a point of “I’m not telling” at least twice that I can recall, and that comes off snobby in a group where many of us know each other’s names, ages, birthdays & anniversaries, occupation, bra size, and what our kids will and won’t eat for dinner. Many people here choose to engage the community as people, and you seem to want to be a disembodied intellect. Which is fine, there are other people here like that too. But you can’t expect the people who are here to chat with friends to enjoy your company if you don’t seem to want the same (or similar) things out of the interaction.
Also I think you have some language issues (an I correct that English is not your first language?) that come across a little “off” at times.
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
I thought your "rudeness" was completely warranted in the "why believe" thread, and I've just finished defending you a little bit, even though that whole fiasco has passed. I don't thikn you're that rude.
Posted by baduffer (Member # 10469) on :
I am shocked that someone on Hatrack would call someone else rude.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I don't think it's rudeness as much as it's a total lack of understanding about how interaction is done here. Like what dkw said.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: Studies have corroborated this belief to the tune of over 50%.
I'm curious where you read this. It would be nice to know more about how they studied this.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Please give me your opinion, with reasons if possible, because it is an important issue for me. If I come across generally, or even lately, as an incurable rude poster, I will have to re-evaluate my presence here and if I really bother many of you, I will try to learn my lesson and probably stay out of your Hatrack life.
Incurable? Where did you ever get the idea that this was even a possibility?
If your purpose is to see how much rudeness we all identify in you, and upon crossing some threshold simply leave, I am not interested in this conversation.
The last hatracker I can recall who posted threads all about how we perceived him was Pelagius (though Blayne occasionally does it) and it was not very fun. Try to not cover the board with threads about you.
I don't see you as rude thus far, I see you as pretty straight forward, possibly alittle lacking in tact on occassion but nothing that leaves the green safety zone of my scanners. I am sure there are things about my posting style that rub people the wrong way as well.
I don't really have much else to say about you, I think you should continue to visit and post here.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Who are you, again?
Hello, I’m suminonA and I have rudeness issues.
- - -
Architraz Warden, thank you, I don’t think you were snarky. I asked for honest opinion and if that comes across in a way that bothers me, it should be my problem and I’d have to deal with it.
Christine, thank you for your elaborated reply and your suggestions. I’m a bit reassured that I didn’t offend you in the other thread. It wasn’t my intention at all.
dkw, once more, your intervention is very valuable for me, and I appreciate it. I think that what you said really is the “core” of Hatrack and if my way of participating on this board (the gender issue for example) is not the best for this community, then it’s precisely the case for me to re-evaluate my “actions” (read words) here.
I have a few main options: a) continue as it is, and hope for the best b) change my way of interacting, like giving publicly much more details, and “conform” to the general mores. c) leave this board and never bother anyone of you again. (If I would come back with another alias you would notice it, because the way I write is very close to the way I am, and that won’t change rapidly or drastically in the future.)
I think what you said is a very constructive “criticism”, and I thank you for it, a second time.
BTW, English isn’t my first language and I don’t think it should be an excuse for misusing the words or writing badly. I try to learn and all of you who give me the benefit of the doubt can help me very much in my goal of bettering myself. (Which is kind of the point of my being here).
Starsnuffer, thank you for defending me in the other thread, and I hope that act doesn’t turn against you in any way.
baduffer, calling someone rude is not shocking, it is an opportunity to better the communication level between the participants to a dialogue.
El JT de Spang I agree, and you witnessed more errors of mine.
- - -
For the time being, I’m going to ponder over my recent experience, take a Time Out and probably lurk for a while. I can learn without interacting, but I think it is a limited experience that way.
Thank you all.
A.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
I think you have good intentions, but you just don't always see how your words can come across as rude. Additionally, I don't think you really need to have an entire thread devoted to this topic in order for you to evaluate how your posting style may be perceived, the mere mention of your being rude should be enough for you to pause for a moment to reflect on why your post may have been perceived that way. You just learn as you go. With that said, you really don't have anything to worry about. No one is actually going to punch you in the neck Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I think you could work on your tact, and maybe sit back and observe how we like to treat others and be treated here before you jump into a conversation where you disagree with others-- that includes how we respond to someone saying they were hurt by something we said, or how we would like someone to respond to us if we said we were hurt by him.
I have hurt peoples' feelings more than once here. I always try to apologize, even if I believe I was correct in what I said, because if I hurt someone's feelings saying it I probably was not correct in the way I said it. (There are exceptions, but I still apologize for hurting their feelings, because that is never my intention, although sometimes I know what I am going to have to say will not be well received, I try to put it the nicest way possible.) And I try even harder to think three times before I post something and look at it from the other side, to make sure that what I am saying is not intentionally hurtful.
That's one of the things I like about Hatrack; while you will occasionally get the thread that is so offensive it is removed, or the poster who thinks that the correct response to people disagreeing with him or being hurt or upset by what he says is to delete his thread, or the argument that just will not die, for the most part, people let their original words stand (or mark their edit so others know they removed them because they realized they could be offensive) but also let stand their apologies, so everyone can see that we care about each other and each other's feelings.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: If your purpose is to see how much rudeness we all identify in you, and upon crossing some threshold simply leave, I am not interested in this conversation.
The last hatracker I can recall who posted threads all about how we perceived him was Pelagius (though Blayne occasionally does it) and it was not very fun. Try to not cover the board with threads about you. […] I don't really have much else to say about you, I think you should continue to visit and post here.
I promise you I don’t have the intention to cover the boards with any kind of threads. I don’t look for sympathy, I look for constructive criticism.
I thank you for your words, and I hope I’ll be able to continue to visit and post here in a way most (if not all) of you would enjoy. I would have to be able to enjoy it too.
- - -
camus, I take full responsibility for all my errors, the starting of this thread included.
A.
Posted by baduffer (Member # 10469) on :
Casablanca
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by Christine: Studies have corroborated this belief to the tune of over 50%.
I'm curious where you read this. It would be nice to know more about how they studied this.
I've read these results in a few places and I'm having trouble find the right search to show me the original study. I know that what they basically did was have volunteer participants guess the tone in email messages and then they evaluated how many of their answers matched the writer's intended tone. I hope I can find this again. I'll be sure to reference it when I do.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Are you Romanian?
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tammy: Are you Romanian?
Yes.
May I ask how did you figure that out?
A.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:I've read these results in a few places and I'm having trouble find the right search to show me the original study. I know that what they basically did was have volunteer participants guess the tone in email messages and then they evaluated how many of their answers matched the writer's intended tone. I hope I can find this again. I'll be sure to reference it when I do.
Of course, part of that is a learning curve.
I expect sarcasm in an e-mail from my mother (we are a very sarcastic family-- I was a bit appalled and also a bit proud when my then-two-year-old daughter correctly used a sarcastic tone to ironically say, "Wonderful.") I do not expect it so much from a friend I know to be absolutely devoid of sarcasm or ill-feeling toward almost any human being. (I also give that friend more of the benefit of the doubt if something she says hurts me-- because I know that would NEVER be her intention, not even a little bit.)
We on Hatrack get to know each other, over time, and understand each others' tones better-- if we all stick around long enough. So I would say that reading strangers' e-mails for tone might not be the best way to evaluate that in an applicable way...
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:No one is actually going to punch you in the neck
As long as you're not rude at anyone's wedding, that is! Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I don't think you're particularly rude. I think you're incredibly, almost exclusively self-interested.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
I also think you're female.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: The last hatracker I can recall who posted threads all about how we perceived him was Pelagius (though Blayne occasionally does it) and it was not very fun. Try to not cover the board with threads about you.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I don't think you're particularly rude. I think you're incredibly, almost exclusively self-interested.
That hits the nail on the head for me. Whether you see it in yourself or not, I do think it is quite clear to (at least some of) us that the threads you start or participate in are heavily weighted to an abundant emphasis on your own self-image, how other people see you, what other people think of your ideas in particular, where others see you in some general ranking, and so on and so forth. This thread, obviously, included.
It's not a terrible characteristic, and it doesn't make you particularly evil, or even bad. It's just a characteristic I associate with the uncertainty of youth. (I don't know how young you are, but this is -- for me -- characteristic of the time period from about 12 to 20 years old, up to around 25 for some people.) Supporting and responding to someone else's need for being the center of things is exhausting at times. It is draining on the energy and good nature of the community -- which almost all of us are, mind you, at one time or another. However, with some people it is like a bottomless well, a constant claim on attention without much put back to replace that.
Like BlackBlade, I too think you should continue to visit and post here. I think the community would lose something valuable for you to fall silent. I also think it would be very good (and perhaps self-informative) for you to take from now until the end of February and keep posting at least a few times a week, but refrain utterly from asking anyone about how they think of you or (directly) what they think of your ideas or opinions. Don't start any threads, either -- just keep posting, but let your voice be one of many,and watch how the conversation goes on when you are, indeed, deliberately just chiming in instead of automatically trying to take over.
[The world keeps turning without you. The conversations will still flow on without you. And when you are there, astonishingly, often the conversation is affected by your voice, even when you don't make it a resounding call to talk about you, yourself. It is actually quite powerful to see that subtlety can have more of an effect on those around you than a coarse approach may, in the long run.]
I think it would be informative and likely harder than you'd expect, but I think it would be worth it to do. I hope you stick around, regardless.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:It is actually quite powerful to see that subtlety can have more of an effect on those around you than a coarse approach may, in the long run.
This is a lesson I'm still trying to learn. It is very hard for me to be silent, even when silence would be appropriate.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
ketchupqueen, TomDavidson, ClaudiaTherese, I hope you don’t mind if I sincerely thank you too. I appreciate the input and I’ll do my best to follow your suggestions.
A.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: This is a lesson I'm still trying to learn. It is very hard for me to be silent, even when silence would be appropriate.
Amen!
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tammy:
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: This is a lesson I'm still trying to learn. It is very hard for me to be silent, even when silence would be appropriate.
Amen!
My goodness, yes. On a daily basis, even after years of putative awareness of it.
suminonA, no problem. And in case it wasn't clear, for my sense of it, this isn't a matter of kind, but of degree. We all are stressors on our friends and the communities we are a part of, but ideally we come to a better balance with others about the taking and the giving.
Thank god that the 'Net wasn't much around during certain times in my life. Seriously.
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
Well, look. As others have mentioned, the whole deal with hatrack -- certainly what makes me want to be a good member of this community (though I sometimes fall short) -- is that idea of dropping the mask that makes it so easy for people to be jerks on the internet, and to really try to imagine, "I'm a person talking to this other person." If I were sitting across a table having a conversation with these individuals, how would I behave, what would I say?
I think we've all been treated rudely on hatrack. And I think we've all treated others rudely. Some of that is just: we were flat out rude. Some of that is the problem of tone on the internet. But the difference between this place and other places is that we tend to care in those instances when we screw up and take things too far. We want to do better. We want to be a community.
Understand that, and you'll be fine.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:Originally posted by suminonA:
quote:Originally posted by Tammy: Are you Romanian?
Yes.
May I ask how did you figure that out?
A.
Didn't see this earlier. I'm a user of the www. It was a guess.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
quote:Originally posted by Tammy:
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: This is a lesson I'm still trying to learn. It is very hard for me to be silent, even when silence would be appropriate.
Amen!
My goodness, yes. On a daily basis, even after years of putative awareness of it.
I don't have much to add, just wanted a chance to quote CT and Tom in the same sentence....and adding a Tammy only improved it.
A- I don't think you have been amazingly rude, and your command of a second language is far better than mine. Despite your comments about that, I do think that is a part of it....it affects how you come across at times. That doesn't mean you are even using the language wrong, just that the tone and phrases are a bit off at times.
Just keep in mind that just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they haven't thought out their viewpoint, or that they are not as smart as you are because your opinions differ. If you remember that you will do fine here.
Also, dkw is spot on.....Hatrack is more than just a random website to a lot of us, which is why people here act differently (at least some of the time) than at other places. I have met at least 40 Jatraquero's IRL, and not just at conventions.
Some of my best friends are people I met here.
[ January 09, 2008, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
Personally, I didn't think you were being rude. I stereotyped you as being dismissive because you had a different opinion from me. At least in that exchange, I think I was clearly at fault.
Though there've been enough new threads to keep track of, I've probably missed something good. Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
TL, Kwea, and the others touching on the “Hatrack community/family” part. I also like the “feeling” of this community, which is not common to other boards, and that’s why I’d regret it if I we would reach to some reciprocal conclusion that my posting here is inherently non enjoyable. (I exaggerate, of course, but not to be flippant, just to make the point clearer).
As I’ve said before, I’m reconsidering my “position” and I’m already asking for your forgiveness because I have the intention to bump this thread when I reach to my conclusions. I think at least a few weeks are in the mill for me.
AvidReader, I’ll look forward to your posts in the future.
Meanwhile, I will participate to the threads that interest me (while not starting any new ones), trying to “lower” my tone and making use of the ounce of tact that I might have.
Any suggestion is still welcomed, and I take this occasion to say that my starting this thread has a lot to do with my self-centreness, obviously, but also was a choice out of courtesy toward the threads that I had “infested”, where this off topic discussion would have been certainly un-enjoyable for the other participants still on topic.
Again, thank you all.
A.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: CAPS are risky internet behavior.
quote:Originally posted by suminonA:
Didn't Christine just warn you about that? Sheesh! How rude!
For the record, though, I don't find you terribly rude.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
Tante Shvester, if you can't see the difference between CAPS and HATS, then I don't want to have this conversation with you.
For the record, though, thank you for your note on the record.
A.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
I think you have been very rude to me, though not nearly at the level attained by... let's see... Kwea, KoM, swbarnes, Samprimary, Tom... I'm sorry if I forgot anyone. However, the perceived rudeness has very little impact on my opinion on you or any of the others; in Tom's case I actually kind of enjoy it, for some strange reason. Something about the way he phrases things... If I let something like that affect how I thought about the little gremlins who type words at me, how must I feel about myself?
Actually, after being introduced to a nice little Rat on the other side who likes to go off about how much OSC sucks, and getting a little deja vu-ish at how he got yelled at, I decided to go back and re-read some of the older threads that got really heated. I noticed that it didn't seem nearly as heated as it felt at the time, though I really do think I was being treated unfairly at times.
At any rate, I don't think you should worry too much about it. I think camus' advice was excellent. It's basically what I've been trying to do.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
Reshpeckobiggle, I apologise in retrospective. Could you give some samples of my rudeness toward you?
A.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
Nah, because it doesn't matter. Just trust me on this one.
If you are having some sort of introspective moment and have decided to try and change how you come across to others, that's great. But don't go overboard; you still gotta be yourself.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
Actually, nevermind. I went back to where you and I talked most (Dang, we have to update evolution again... which then morphed into My Very Own Thread About Evolution), and you were one of the good guys. I think I just was confusing you with someone else. So let me change my official response to you on this thread to: Rude, you? Dude, I don't know what you're talking about.
Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: (Dang, we have to update evolution again... which then morphed into My Very Own Thread About Evolution)
Lets wait for some of the atheism/religion threads to clear out before clogging the front page with evolution again Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
No argument there. Have you noticed how I'm staying the heck away from all that? Just biding my time...
*edit* (that was starting to annoy me.)
And then... POUNCE!!!
[ January 10, 2008, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: Reshpeckobiggle ]
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Nah, because it doesn't matter. Just trust me on this one.
I only ask because it matters to me. I won’t insist, though. I will trust you because you’re talking about your impression and that’s your prerogative. But this won’t help me avoid being rude to you again. As long as you accept me for myself, it shouldn’t matter that much anyway.
A.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
You see my next post? Seriously, I was confusing you with someone else. You were cool with me.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
Yes, I did, after posting the reply. I sometimes forget to refresh the page before posting. But I won't edit it away, because I stand by my answer.
A.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
Hate to tell you, but the way you're standing by your answer comes across as a bit rude.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
Oh well, I still have a long way to go.
A.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Dude, [...]
I hope you use the "dude" thing just as a default label.
BTW, please be careful when you make statements based only on your faulty memory, and then ask people to trust you at face value. I consider that to be a tad rude.
A.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:As I’ve said before, I’m reconsidering my “position” and I’m already asking for your forgiveness because I have the intention to bump this thread when I reach to my conclusions.
I hope, when you reach your conclusions, you will -- as part of reaching those conclusions -- conclude that bumping the thread is unnecessary, since part of that conclusion should involve concluding that we don't really care all that much. Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I hope, when you reach your conclusions, you will -- as part of reaching those conclusions -- conclude that bumping the thread is unnecessary, since part of that conclusion should involve concluding that we don't really care all that much.
I know bumping is generally “bad practice” around here, hence the warning.
Also, I don’t think I have seen you wink in a long time.
As for the “necessity”, I don’t know. You already know that I’m quite self-centered (I don’t deny it given the evidence) and that would be enough to make it worth the “risk” for me. And if you talk in the name of some subgroup of Hatrack (you sad “we”), I can’t do that and my conclusions can’t reach that far (without your generalised help).
My intention is to ponder over the decision to give or not all the details that make me a “truncated” member (see gender, age, etc), and if that decision is to make them public, to make it here. If not, to explain why (still) not, without starting another “self-centered” thread. Also, if I decide to go away I’ll take the time to say goodbye here.
A.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:Originally posted by suminonA: I know bumping is generally “bad practice” around here, hence the warning.
A forum is for discussing things. To discuss in a forum you must "bump".
I think the problem comes in when the horse is obviously dead, yet someone is determined to keep beating.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tammy: I think the problem comes in when the horse is obviously dead, yet someone is determined to keep beating.
Yes, absolutely. I personally have "revived" a thread after more than a year, with little more than "Bump?", which I still feel ashamed for today.
In the case of this thread, I'm quite positive that it won't stay on the first page until I make my decision, but bumping it has a clearly defined intention and purpose.
A.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Let me be clearer: the only person who will care about your actual decision is you. We don't really care what you think about yourself; we care what we think of you, and that will not be affected (in the way you'd expect, at least) by your assertion that we should or should not think of you in some specific way. In other words, if any people here think you are rude, it won't matter to them if you conclude that their belief is justified or unjustified; the only person to whom that might matter is you.
It'd be like posting a thread that says, in its entirety, "Hey, fellas, look! I have a pimple!" There's no harm in it, but you've already demonstrated that you're the kind of person who gets frustrated if no one takes that information and runs with it -- which means that you'll then be expecting people to weigh in with their own thoughts about your pimple, recommendations for its repair, and/or pimple stories of their own, and will be disappointed if this doesn't happen. It creates obligation where no obligation need exist.
To put it another way: no one really cares whether you're a 12-year-old girl, or a 45-year-old trucker from Zimbabwe, except insofar as these things inform what you write. What you write here is who you are, except once you move beyond the forum itself to meet some of the individuals here in MeatSpace (as many of us have done). Don't agonize over whether to reveal personal details to us; if you have to agonize over it, that's a sign that you probably shouldn't.
We know you only from what you write. So far, what you write has largely boiled down to "I have lots of thoughts about myself. I will tell you those thoughts. What do you think of me, given only what I think of myself?" I have every reason to believe that this will change, and look forward to knowing you better.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: We don't really care what you think about yourself
This is where my touchy feely personality comes in, I do care about what you think about yourself.
However, over analyzing it here in post after post is not always profitable, sometimes it actually makes you feel worse about yourself.
I know, I've done it.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I'm going to chime in to agree with Tom, since I'm the one who first brought up the "personal details" issue in this thread. You don't have to reveal any personal details in order to participate fully in the community. What you do need to do is quit making such a big deal about the fact that you aren't revealing them. It's like you're jumping up and down saying "I have a secret! I have a secret! Don't ask about my secret -- it shouldn't matter to you."
It really doesn't matter -- except as much as you make it matter. And you are focusing on it a lot more than anyone else here.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Let me be clearer: the only person who will care about your actual decision is you. We don't really care what you think about yourself; we care what we think of you, and that will not be affected (in the way you'd expect, at least) by your assertion that we should or should not think of you in some specific way. In other words, if any people here think you are rude, it won't matter to them if you conclude that their belief is justified or unjustified; the only person to whom that might matter is you.
Ok, I need to clarify this point myself: I already agreed that it is possible to come off as rude to some people here. For that, in this thread I ask for your help to avoid that in the future. The suggestions that I received are valuable to me and I thank you all for them.
I don’t expect you to change your opinion of me if I don’t (or can’t) change anything about myself (as seen on Hatrack).
And so we get to the second point, about the personal information. I have never associated that with the rudeness (I still don’t), but I appreciate that it came out in this thread nonetheless. Because it also affects the way you see me, and I might get to the conclusion (in a rational manner) that I can change that for the “better” in the future.
Of course, if it really doesn’t mater for you (royal you), then I’ll drop the subject and go on as I have for over two years already. Take the reaction to my nationality when it came out: zero fuss. I have never expected anything else, but then I don’t get what’s all the fuss about having a “truncated” personality vis-à-vis Hatrack, given that I don’t have the luck to be Real (Hatrack-wise) and don’t expect to have that chance in the near future. That point I touched in my first landmark and I thought it would have been the end of it. It wasn’t, because you (royal you) made a fuss about it every time it came up. If you really don’t care, then what’s wrong with my answer: “I don’t think this information is, or should be, relevant on this board (for an unReal member)”?
I totally understand the “community” feeling and the value it has on Hatrack, I appreciate it too, but if in order to be accepted I have to give out personal information that I don’t think is relevant, and you don’t think is relevant either, then what? I might decide with great sorrow that I can’t accept that. It is a paradox but my middle name, if I had one, should be “paradox” as in Anon Paradox Imus.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: We know you only from what you write.
That’s exactly my point and I think it should remain safely so until I have the opportunity to become Real. What do you think?
I see the image you in particular and other Hatraqueros in general have of me is quite close to my real one, and the evaluation that I have from someone who knows me exclusively from what I write I value a lot more than from any person who, with only seeing me, has formed an “idea” based on size, gender, skin colour and the like. Is that so absurd?
So the simple question is this: Is personal information a pre-requisite for being an enjoyable poster for you, or not? If not, we drop it now and that’s it. If yes, then I have to resolve the paradox.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: So far, what you write has largely boiled down to "I have lots of thoughts about myself. I will tell you those thoughts. What do you think of me, given only what I think of myself?" I have every reason to believe that this will change, and look forward to knowing you better.
Thank you for the vote of confidence. Coming from you in particular means a lot to me.
quote:Originally posted by Tammy: However, over analyzing it here in post after post is not always profitable, sometimes it actually makes you feel worse about yourself.
Rest assured, I am glad I had the gut to start this thread. I’ve learned more things that I value, here, than in the two landmarks threads that I started until now. I enjoy talking as directly and sincerely with you (royal you) as my unRealness allows me to.
A.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
dkw, does that (my previous post) answer your suggestion satisfactorily?
A.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
quote: So the simple question is this: Is personal information a pre-requisite for being an enjoyable poster for you, or not?
I don't care one way or the other. Since I don't have a handy reference spreadsheet, I just mix folks up anyway. I remember what Chris does for a living, what industry Kwea's wife works in, and what city Icarus lives in. That's about it.
When I was first lurking, there was one particular poster that used to get under my skin. I always felt he was dismissing the women with comments about their appearance and never valuing their opinions. So I picked an androgynous screen name, stuck to the facts, and tried to keep gender from coming up. I didn't want a pat on the head, I wanted to be heard.
After he'd become a semi-regular and I'd started to feel more comfortable here, I realized it was more affection than condescension. He knew these women well enough to rib them a little. And I started to realize I was a little jealous of that kind of rapport. I have plenty of people here I like to chat with, but I don't really have any friends. I figure if I keep on doing my thing and loosening up, I'll have some by about 2015 or so.
Some of us just take life at our own pace. There's nothing wrong with that.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
To address something briefly from the last page. I post in caps from time to time to emphasize certain words, and I'll apologize to anyone who has been bothered by it. I wasn't intentionally being rude, and I'll freely admit that I was too lazy to type out the gibberish to put it in italics. Long chains of words strung together (I guess more succinctly referred to as a sentence) in caps, I would find wrong for this forum, but the occasional word in caps used for emphasis I assume is just a different form of italics.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
quote:Originally posted by suminonA: BTW, please be careful when you make statements based only on your faulty memory, and then ask people to trust you at face value. I consider that to be a tad rude.
A.
I was asking you to trust me when I say that something that I incorrectly thought about you didn't bother me in the first place. I think you're thinking to much.
So you're not a dude, you're a chick?
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
Reshpeckobiggle, you need to read the whole thread (and probably my landmarks) to get an accurate answer for that.
A.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
Well, what do you know, it appears that this thread is still on the first page, and I reached my conclusions already, and no “bump” is necessary! (I call “bump” the act of bringing up a thread from lower than 3 or 4 pages).
This proves at least 2 points: a) I exaggerated (not intentionally) when I though a few weeks were to be necessary. b) The conclusions are not that important (except the “rudeness” in particular). -> I agree with TomDavidson! (on that)
(I still hope that you’ll enjoy reading this long post to the end )
Therefore, I present you my conclusions:
1) About my rudeness:
I was excessively rude (without intention) and I have to (and want to) change that in the future. I repent, I ask for your understanding and hope to be able to move on.
A few observations (as usual ) : Not to excuse myself, but in order to explain my “rationale” in using the words I used when I appeared to be rude, and the “lazy” word in particular, my idea was: When I called Javert Hugo that, it was the point (the main cause) of not “accepting” his declarative statement. That is, if he would have said something like: “This morning I was so lazy that I overslept five minutes and skipped breakfast”, I would have never used that word to characterize him in the thread. But not giving evidence for his claim because he said he was <insert word here> is exactly why I needed to ask (and shout without intention at him) to elaborate. I apologise again and admit that my lack of tact was way over the top.
Also, using caps to emphasise (in that particular case) was wrong, I’ll avoid it to the max in the future.
In the other cases, I tried to use gremlins (thank again Christine for noticing) to show that what I said was in a friendly kind of way, not to intentionally be dismissive. I can improve that too, and use more and more gremlins in those cases.
Conclusion: I was wrong and apologise. I also thank to all the posters in this thread.
2) About personal information
I see that it appears that I am the source of all the fuss about it. (I don’t quite agree, but my impressions aren’t infallible). I’m sorry if my way of approaching this sounded like “Look, look, I have a pimple!” or “Oh, oh, I have a secret and not telling!”. It was never my intention. From the start (see landmark) I stated my position, and my reasons for that, and I even accepted to reveal all detail for those interested by private messaging. The information is not a secret, it’s just irrelevant for the public board. It is irrelevant and useless as long as I’m unReal Hatrack wise.
Now, I understand that not divulging some of it sounds like what I really want is to cheat on you and get more credit than what I deserve. The most obvious being the age issue. I’ve seen for myself young teenagers trying to pass as “adults” on the internet, but they are almost always given away by their own words, and most of the time fail pathetically. So I understand where that comes from.
Therefore, I assure you that I’m not 12 years old, that I have an engineering degree in Computer Science and that I’m not prodigious enough to have done that at the age of 10. So, whatever you say, I have lived a lot more years that what my words make me appear on this board, and that might be seen as a failing on my part. Yet I don’t mind, I only want you to “respect” (and/or accept) me for the maturity of my ideas not of the age of my ID.
The gender thing is still utterly irrelevant and I’ll keep it as it is. If that’s a problem say so and I’ll give it more thought.
Conclusion: You should know that I’m older IRL than the image seen on Hatrack, but still treat me as you would treat a person of the latter.
3) About the self-centreness
This is the thing that I realized only because starting this thread, and I am glad that I did. Looking in retrospective, from the threads that I started until now (not quite a dozen yet) the vast majority are about “myself”. (I find that only natural, because I don’t have the habit to start “fluff” threads and the topics that interest me I present from my point of view, because I know it best ). But more than that, I understood that even in the threads that I haven’t started, I seem to want to be “in charge” or “draw attention” as if I was the main poster there. That’s what I didn’t notice myself and the cause is obviously my self-centrenees (because I don’t do it out of superiority or authority complexes). I know my limitation (intelligence/culture/knowledge-wise) and always focusing on myself is the way I express what I know/think/believe.
So, this is my resolution:
Not to start any new thread about “myself” or “my beliefs”, before starting at least three other threads of general interest, presented from a neutral point of view, and not focused on mine. (A ratio 3 : 1 would bring a balance in the global posting, I think)
Not to seek monopoly in any thread, started by myself or otherwise. To let the discussion go where it wants to go, to “chime in” from time to time and not direct anyone or “boss around”.
Conclusion: I am too self-centred for this community and it would be better for everybody if I could “loosen up” a bit.
- - -
Additionally,
I’ll continue to visit and post here, and learn more as I go along, not only “factual knowledge”, but about behaviour, tact, humour, sarcasm, cynicism, irony, and community life (and communication) in general.
I’ll continue to ask questions. That will never stop. I only hope to do it right.
A.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
You're a dude.
An engineering degree? In COMPUTER SCIENCE? No question about it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
FWIW, Javert's a girl. Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: You're a dude.
An engineering degree? In COMPUTER SCIENCE? No question about it.
You see, you're already jumping to conclusions. Rest assured, in your case I don't mind, though.
A.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Who are you, again?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Therefore, I assure you that I’m not 12 years old, that I have an engineering degree in Computer Science and that I’m not prodigious enough to have done that at the age of 10. So, whatever you say, I have lived a lot more years that what my words make me appear on this board, and that might be seen as a failing on my part. Yet I don’t mind, I only want you to “respect” (and/or accept) me for the maturity of my ideas not of the age of my ID.
The gender thing is still utterly irrelevant and I’ll keep it as it is. If that’s a problem say so and I’ll give it more thought.
As long as you continue to play that game, I'm not going to trust anything you say about who you are.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: FWIW, Javert's a girl.
Tom, are you trying to confuse things?
Javert Hugo is a girl; Javert is a guy.
Oh, and I entirely agree with mph.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: As long as you continue to play that game, I'm not going to trust anything you say about who you are.
Fair enough. That's for all who think like that, including rivka.
A.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Don't include rivka-- she's Jewish! She'll eat your babies!
*I* need to eat your babies!
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: *I* need to eat your babies!
Is this some kind of a joke?
A.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote: Yet I don’t mind, I only want you to “respect” (and/or accept) me for the maturity of my ideas not of the age of my ID.
But for me at least, it is precisely the maturity of your ideas that makes me think you are at best in your late teen or early twenties. If you are older than that then your education in the humanities (formal or informal), is severely lacking for someone of your age.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by suminonA:
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: *I* need to eat your babies!
Is this some kind of a joke?
A.
Yes.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
The Rabbit, thank you. I am trying to remediate that. (talking about my lacking education)
In all seriousness, do you think that I should stay away from the Post Reply button until then?
- - -
edit: why is that funny? (talking about the joke)
A.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
The joke is that Mormons (or just Scott) eats babies.
I personally don't find it funny, but I can be quite a stick-in-the-mud.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
The reasons why the Scott/Rivka exchange is funny would be revealed by a humanistic education, the history of religions in America in particular.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I'll take your word that you are a computer scientist. And the fact that you do not wish your gender to be known is under advisement.
It's good because I would have been pretty worried if you wanted to be a philosopher, resisting persuasion as you have that you should fit your positions into the known field.
It's not that nothing new can ever happen, but reinventing a wheel without knowing what wheels exist is not going to produce a new wheel.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Don't include rivka-- she's Jewish! She'll eat your babies!
For the umpteenth time, I don't eat babies of people I don't even know!
Maybe nibble on the toes a little . . .
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:In all seriousness, do you think that I should stay away from the Post Reply button until then?
Seriously, you're worrying about this way too much. It's good that you are concerned with how other people see you, but you really don't need to draw attention to the fact that you're concerned about it, because that just makes you seem like you're only looking for attention instead of sincerely wanting to be a part of the community. And quite frankly, no one is even going to care much about you until you first contribute to the community or to a conversation in a way other than by constantly bringing attention to yourself.
Like all types of social interaction, you don't need to get everything correct right away, you'll learn as you go. You'll get different types of feedback, sometimes obvious, sometimes subtle. Think about it, take it to heart, and if necessary, adjust the way you post going forward. You don't need to keep everyone updated on all the adjustments you make, because, once again, that only looks like a cry for attention. And people will be more likely to converse with you if they think you're sincere and not just out to get attention.
Regarding personal information, just don't say things about yourself that you don't feel comfortable saying. There are plenty of people here that don't reveal personal information. But by constantly bringing attention to the fact that you've got information that you're not going to reveal, it casts doubt on the sincerity and truth of what you do say.
Regarding this thread, hopefully you've learned some things from it, but it's really not necessary to keep adding to it. In fact, everything in this thread is stuff that you probably would have learned over time anyway, except without acting like you're crying for attention. My advice would be to post a final comment in this thread saying that you appreciate the comments and that you hope to continue to enjoy and contribute to this community. You don't need to say whether you're going to stay, leave, or if you've learned anything. That will be self evident in your future posts.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I wonder how culture dependent the whole idea of self-consciousness is.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
quote:Originally posted by camus: My advice would be to post a final comment in this thread saying that you appreciate the comments and that you hope to continue to enjoy and contribute to this community. You don't need to say whether you're going to stay, leave, or if you've learned anything. That will be self evident in your future posts.
What camus said.
A.
[this is my final comment on this thread]
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by suminonA: The Rabbit, thank you. I am trying to remediate that. (talking about my lacking education)
In all seriousness, do you think that I should stay away from the Post Reply button until then?
Probably not necessary but do try giving some serious thought to other peoples posts before you hit reply and then address the things others have said with respect (which isn't the same as agreement) when you reply. This will show that you are as interested in what other people have to say as you are in what you are saying.
- - -
quote: edit: why is that funny? (talking about the joke)
A.
"They eat babies" is among the more egregious accusations that anti-Semites (and more rarely anti-Mormons) have made over the centuries. Somewhere along the line it became a Hatrack inside joke between rivka, who is an observant Jew, and Scott R, who is an active Mormon.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
I should also add that I do feel that your intentions with this thread were good, despite how it may have looked to others. I think you do sincerely want to be a valuable member of this community, and that is commendable. We all make mistakes with how we interact, and we all hope to learn from them. If you make a mistake or are unintentionally rude or something to that effect, people understand because we've all done it. We all can look back at silly, immature, and outright inappropriate things we've said in the past. So don't get too caught up with worrying about every little thing you say. Just enjoy being a part of this place. In a year from now you'll think back to this thread and laugh. We all grow and change over time.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
*wonders* I wonder why Jews are observant but Mormons are active? Are Catholics observant, active, faithful, orthodox, what?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
We pay more attention? Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Jews observe the Mormons being active riding their bicycles.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Oh, of course! It's because of the bicycles.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
The Catholic distinction I'm most familiar with generally goes the other way, with no qualifier being used for those who are active, and "lapsed" being added to those who aren't.
In some places, the adjective "very" is added, but it's usually used to refer to a tiny subset of Catholic beliefs/practices. For example, many people referred to my folks as "very Catholic" because they had 6 kids.
Most of the people who did that were not Catholic.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
It's not just a joke between rivka and I.
All of Hatrack shares in the laughter.
TomDavidson especially.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I'm pretty sure it takes at least 8-9 kids to qualify as "very" Orthodox. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
With all due respect-- amateurs.
You have to give birth to 8-9 kids to be even be considered mostly worthy in Mormonism.
Of course, we eat most of our brats...
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
That would be why most of the people who called my parents "very" were not Catholic. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Oh, I meant from the perspective of outsiders.
Personally, I think 12 is the cutoff. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I was going to say that the eating babies thing has long since spread to a Hatrack-wide joke. That is all. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
(Oh, and my aunt, who is Catholic, tends to say "observant Catholic" to distinguish from the "lapsed Catholic" and the "culturally Catholic." FWIW.)
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
The eating babies thing is utter nonsense, of course.
Everyone knows the true mark is the horns and tail.
*swishes*
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: You have to give birth to 8-9 kids to be even be considered mostly worthy in Mormonism.
Of course, we eat most of our brats...
Mmmmm...sausage... :: drool ::
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Is it so wrong that I enjoy the derails much more than the, um, rails?
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Must you rail on about that?
I say we bar such remarks in the future.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Don't get off track, PT.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
I refuse to be railroaded!
(Okay, I'll stop.)
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Is "lapsed Catholic" the equivalent of "Jack Mormon" where as "recovering Catholic" would be more like "apostate Mormon"
"Jack Mormon" A Mormon who has beer with his babies.
"Apostate Mormon" A former Mormon who used to revel in baby eating but has now seen the error of his ways and crusades against the eating of babies.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: I refuse to be railroaded!
(Okay, I'll stop.)
Don't! The pun threads are community building; they tie us together.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
In fact, we should train new users to make them.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Get your caboose in gear; let's engineer this change!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
HO HO HO.
I don't think these puns make the grade.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Dag's right, I'm afraid. I can't express how much it saddens me to say so, but it's true.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Even if they engender pacific feelings in this reading crowd?
[ January 11, 2008, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I'll have to choo on that for a while.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
They do tie us together as a community.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Even if we stop with the puns, though, I feel confident that Tres'll bridge the gaps between us.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
They give us a good reason to go crazy, too. Puns are a loco motive.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
*LAUGH*
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
(Noemon! I jumped to the same "tie" reference as you did! getouddamyhead!)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
When y'all are done with the loco puns, I assume you'll be moving on to flat math and Detroit-related ones?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: (Noemon! I jumped to the same "tie" reference as you did! getouddamyhead!)
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
But Noemon wins with the "Tres'll bridge" pun. That was inspired.
Posted by String (Member # 6435) on :
I think your doing fine. Maybe some people mistake your directness for bad manners. I try not to be overly sensitive about others comments and try to absorb the content and not the presentation of more emotional posts.
That being said, I know I have come off as rude before, but If I feel strongly about something, I'm not going sugar-coat my opinion. (There was a thread in which someone made that statement that Christianity was as violent as Islam, and I didn't have very nice things to say about the intellectual dishonesty of the person who said it.) However If I stick my foot in my mouth I will apologize, and I don't take offense if the roles are reversed and someone goes off the handle on me.
I guess what I'm trying to say is don't worry about it, you can't please everybody, and as long as your not insulting people personally or trolling you should be O.K. Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
suminonA,
Your current PFD reminded me of this one and so rather than disrupt that thread, I thought I'd come over here and offer you some more pointers on how to relate better with people here.
So here are the pointers, in no particular order.
1. Stop making up new words and acronyms. English is not your native language. As a result you don't understand how your new words are going to sound to a native English speaker. English is full of lots and lots of really good words, 3 times as many as any other language. With a little research you should be able to find an existing English word that expresses what you mean far better than the terms you make up.
2. Be respectful towards what other people consider sacred or of great worth. When people hold something as sacred, weird terms, funny spellings, creative acronyms and such will come across a disrespectful whether you intend them to or not. In these areas its best to tread lightly and err on the side of caution. Most people here can joke and laugh about their religion but there are limits. When you aren't intimately familiar with the language and culture of others its too easy to over step those limits without meaning to.
3. Lists of questions generally make for dull threads. People too often post their answers and move on. In such threads I rarely see anyone respond to anyone's answers so dialog never develops.
[ February 07, 2008, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
#3 is the biggie. Why the heck would people want to respond to a survey about their beliefs? No one cares about #2 if your topic is at least interesting, but surveys are inherently uninteresting.
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