Can't find the previous thread for this, so starting a new one. And as the thread title notes, this thread is just full of ***SPOILERY*** goodness/badness.
Liking the Buffy comics a lot, the latest one (#10) has a lot of nice character bits.
Angel has had 2 issues so far. Joss Whedon's less involved with it, he's being a script editor but not the actual writer. I'm missing Joss's dialogue... and I think it's just harder to do Angel as a comic. Buffy stories are easier to tell I think -- more compelling mythos (Slayers etc.) and more ongoing characters. Angel... I liked Angel, but a lot of liking it was because the writing and the actors made me care about the characters even when the storylines were vague and slow to build up.
I may get to liking the Angel comic once the story gets going and I care about the characters again. The art's kinda fuzzy though, so expressions and dramatic reveals don't work so well. (Oh, that's Wesley? OK. And who's that? Is that Drusilla? No, wait, that's Illyria. Oh.) And the whole hell-on-earth/earth-on-hell story is hard for me to get in to because I've read too many hell-on-earth stories. (That said, I liked the bit about Spike being the lord of heaven in Beverly Hills. And the hell-on-earth IS a kinda appropriate consequence of season 5's how-the-hell-are-they-gonna-get-out-of-THAT finale.)
(If I was good I'd save up a bunch of the comics to read all at once to have more of a TV-type experience, since it seems to take 2 regular-sized issues to tell a story that would be told in 1 episode. But, I'm not good, and I'm not patient. More comics NOW, dang it!)
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I want to read the buffy comics in graphic novel format. I think that might make me enjoy them more.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
In the latest Buffy (#11), Satsu falls in the mud, and Buffy tells her how that reminds her of a dream in which she (Buffy) looked like that. Anyone know what that's a reference to?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
It was the last episode of Season 4. A sort of coda, after the two part finale. It was called Restless. We got to hear Giles sing, we got to meet the first slayer, we got to see a spirit who looked like Tara tell Buffy to "be back before Dawn", we got to see Buffy and Faith making beds together. Next to Once More With Feeling, Restless is my favorite episode.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Everyone seems to love Restless and Hush but I hate them both.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Ah. I saw Restless (have seen all of them), but don't remember that particular bit from the dream. Thanks!
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I wasn't wild about Hush. I mean, it was well done, but not my cup of tea. Same with The Body. It was incredibly good, for what it was, but it wasn't feel-good TV.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
But Restless was? I'll give you that Once More with Feeling almost was feel good tv.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
"The Body" was most definitely not feel-good TV. But it was the most intense hour of television I have ever seen.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Ooh! I just realized what the "Restless" reference must mean!
The Big Bad for season 8 is... . . . . . . . . the Cheese Guy!!! Posted by The Flying Dracula Hair (Member # 10155) on :
"...it does not wear me."
I REALLY dislike the Buffy Season 8 comic, but dig much where Season 6 of Angel is going.
I heard a certain spoilery spoiler about a certain
.. .
. .
couple
but I still have to ask where the source got his info from, because I ran to check issue #11 and didn't see it, nor did it pop up in the latest Angel.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: But Restless was? I'll give you that Once More with Feeling almost was feel good tv.
I found Restless wicked cool. It had me so looking forward to the 5th season, and seeing the stuff that was foreshadowed was wild. I didn't see it as a downer at all.
[ March 02, 2008, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Lisa ]
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
I'm liking the Angel comic better -- it's getting more interesting -- but don't feel like the non-Whedon writer guy quite has the feel for it yet; the dialogue in #4 has too many random asides, and I feel like he's juggling too many characters right now.
I'm also wishing they could print the art on cheap newsprint. On glossy paper, the day-glo coloring hurts my eyes. Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
More comics! Yeah!
Love the Dracula and Xander bits.
Satsu's doomed. Doomed, doomed, doomed. Her only chance to be with Buffy is to become a vampire. And even then she'll STILL be doomed.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I haven't read the Buffy 8 comics yet, but I'm current on the Angel comics.
I have to admit I'm really digging the way Team Angel has gotten totally screwed by their glorious 'last' stand. I'm fascinated by Wesley as usual, and Gunn's (not one of my favorites until he went all gray matter gray area brain upgrade) 'transition' is pretty interesting as well.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I am enjoying the Buffy 8 comics, but I didn't the Angel one at all. I didn't much like Angel as a show either, though, so that's consistent.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Why do you think that is, Katharina? I'm just curious, about not liking Angel I mean. It's not surprising, though, considering that they're such different shows.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
The only Angel episode I've ever been actually interested in was "The Girl in Question"
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
So for you the greater interest is simply because you dig Buffy as a character, and Angel is not appealing?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I like non-Buffy shows, so that isn't it.
I think it's because it isn't really funny and because I'm not impressed with the character of Angel himself. There are so many disparate characteristics and he's supposed to be all of them, but very few of them ring true for me. I don't buy that he's a character with centuries of experience. The endless angst is tiresome. It's been one hundred years - stop the self-centered moping!
I do like Torchwood, which is basically Russel T. Davies's version of Angel, and I DO buy that Captain Jack has centuries of experience.
It might all come to the fact that David Boreanaz, while indeed worthy of some sort of "Most Improved" award, is not a very good actor and can't quite pull off what his character description asks of him. That colors everything else.
Plus, Fred is boring.
I do like Cordelia and Wesley.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Torchwood = Angel?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
immortal, centuries-old star, rag bag team of experts, billowy coat king of pain, spin off from another, lighter (theoretically) show, fighting usually supernatural crime
Yeah.
Except there is more sex in Torchwood. *tiny text* And the lead is better in every way.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Katharina, of course I didn't mean that the only reason you didn't like it was because you only liked BtVS and other shows were inadequate. I've seen you on Dr. Who for example:p
I'm mixed on Boreanaz, but then again Angel was never my favorite character on Angel anyway. It's worth mentioning for me that my favorite seasons of Angel are once Wesley gets in the game, though I did dig Doyle.
Heh, re: centuries of experience, well, I sort of filed that under suspension of disbelief right away with him, even back in Buffy. It was just...weird, that Angel-Buffy relationship. What'd they have in common, anyway?
Now, Marsters and Spike, that's a different story, at least in my opinion.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Oh yeah - Marsters is a great actor and did a fabulous job with Spike. And on Torchwood, for that matter.
That's part of why I didn't believe the Angel = centuries old thing. Slayer or not, Buffy was a great but normal sixteen-year-old, and their relationship was normal for a teenager but not for a grown man. I know there's a big difference between Rose and the Doctor as well, but Rose left her life and joined the Doctor's - she didn't expect the Doctor to take her to prom and hang out with her at the Bronze. I can't picture that happening at all.
Added: I also resent what the writers did to Spike on Angel. I know the character of Spike changed a lot over the seasons, but on Buffy he was definitely an alpha male, even when "nuetered" as a vampire. I can picture a lot of things happening, but retreating to being a comical sidekick to another vampire is not among them. He may have been love's *****, but he wasn't a sidekick for any other reason. He had to be, though, or else they'd've had to change the name of the show to Spike.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:He had to be, though, or else they'd've had to change the name of the show to Spike.
And the downside would have been...?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
That would have been excellent. I'm guessing Boreanaz would have been upset.
See? It all goes back to him.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I actually liked the character Angel a lot more on Angel than on Buffy. Certainly more than I ever liked Buffy, who remained one of my least favorite parts of Buffy throughout the entire series.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I do like Buffy as a character. I found her journey very believable and I liked her as a learning, reluctant leader.
Angel on Buffy...honestly, Boreanaz was so wooden on Buffy that he was barely a character.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I do like Buffy as a character. I found her journey very believable and I liked her as a learning, reluctant leader.
I liked Buffy as a character too (less in the first season where she spent more time whining, but I still liked her), but hell, she was a pretty darn crappy leader. I mean, her heart was in the right place and because of some personal heroism her decisions turned up right, but Anya had the right of it, I think.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Anya was right, but so was Riley ("Make the plan, execute the plan.").
I've blocked out the seventh season. Only the Spike scenes, Selfless, and the finale exist in my personal canon.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Hehe.
Riley was right too, but then again with Riley it was more often, "Make an informed/experienced plan, execute the plan." Buffy knew a hell of a lot about personally fighting the bad guys; when to duck, when to punch, when to kick, and (sometimes) when to run.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I found myself identifying with Anya in seasons 5,6 and 7 way more than I would have wanted to. In season 4 of Buffy she was a very annoying character that I compared to a girl I don't like, but more and more i found her to be me. Without the thousand year old thing.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I note the unusual characteristics of Anya that you don't mention there, breyerchic04, and I'm a bit nervous that you only singled out her relatively low social security number Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
You mean the bunny thing? Yeah I've sort of got that too, look at my sake signature.
Oh you meant the slaying frat boys, well there was that one night...
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Didn't like Angel much on Buffy so we didn't watch Angel right off. It was only after we did see a couple shows and noticed that the other characters were making fun of all the stuff we didn't like about him. "God, why is it so dark in here all the time! Stop with the brooding, it's getting old!"
I liked Buffy initially but as the years went on I think I just got tired of her. Not the actress -- when Buffy was altered ("Beer bad!") or otherwise out of character she was great, and her performance in "The Body" was outstanding -- but the character got a bit tired for me. Fortunately there were lots of other characters to enjoy...
[ April 03, 2008, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Yeah. After season 6 and coming back from the dead and having a messed-up relationship with Spike, there just didn't seem to be much new for her to do anymore.
I'm glad they finally had a reference to Anya in the latest issue and that Xander had actually mourned for her. (The idea that Xander mourned her by going and serving Dracula for a few months is somehow goofily fitting...)
I miss Anya, but I don't miss her in the comic. I think she'd be pretty hard to get right in a comic book -- Emma Caulfield really made the character breathe and be strangely likeable.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
(Poor Renee, too, but, mostly, poor Xander, looks like he's gonna be hanging out with Dracula again...)
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I stalled after #12 - that seemed like such a pointless stunt, I lost faith in the writing. I'm fine with exploring new territory, but this was the exact same emotional old territory of season six, except adding in some pandering and wacky next-morning hijinks. Dissapointing. Did it get better again?
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
I liked 13 and 14, the bits with Dracula were good, and other characters like Willow point out that probably Buffy's going to be dumb and break Satsu's heart.
But as folks in the thread have said, Buffy's not a very interesting character anymore. There's just not much left to do with her. (About the only thing I can think of = having her be a mom, but I doubt they could actually do that well.)
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
#15 has some great stuff (Dawn, bye to Renee), a couple points where the farce doesn't work, and the Buffy-Satsu dialogue doesn't work at all.
I can see Buffy experimenting with another woman. But they way too quickly had Satsu realize "No, this is a bad idea, I'm moving to Japan."
I think they're having a hard time figuring out Buffy's current attitude to relationships. In season 7 she didn't do much except for a date or two and some friendly cuddling with Spike, and in the last show she tells Angel that she's like cookie dough and that she doesn't have to decide yet. Is that still her attitude? Will she be able to date and have fun without messing up?
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
I think Buffy should date Wesley. They have substantial shared experience; she likes the bad boys, and he's grey/dark enough for her....shared goals....
Of course, I stopped watching Buffy halfway through season 7 and never really got as much into Angel as I'd gotten into Buffy.
It's shameful disloyalty; my oldest daughter is called Buffy.
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sachiko: It's shameful disloyalty; my oldest daughter is called Buffy.
I wouldn't worry about that as much as the shameful disloyalty to your daughter. Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Um, disloyalty in naming her Buffy, or disloyalty in that I should be a fan of the show I named her after?
(it's a good thing it's not her LEGAL first name.)
(I guess that makes it her illegal first name.)
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
Ahhh. I was just poking fun, but I have to admit a bit of relief that it isn't her legal first name.
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Yeah, it woudl be really silly to name my daughter after a vampire show.
Her REAL first name is Bella.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I love the idea of Buffy and Wesley. Too bad he's DEAD.
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Oh, is he?
Yeah....see, I told you I petered out on Angel after the first few seasons. Once they took over Wolfram & Hart I just went, Meh.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Yeah, it woudl be really silly to name my daughter after a vampire show.
My second daughter is named after a character in a webcomic.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: That's part of why I didn't believe the Angel = centuries old thing. Slayer or not, Buffy was a great but normal sixteen-year-old, and their relationship was normal for a teenager but not for a grown man. I know there's a big difference between Rose and the Doctor as well, but Rose left her life and joined the Doctor's - she didn't expect the Doctor to take her to prom and hang out with her at the Bronze. I can't picture that happening at all.
I didn't have a problem with the Angel/Buffy thing. Originally I figured he was fascinated with her because of the whole Slayer thing (there's only one Slayer after all, and Slayers don't have much of a life expectancy, so enjoy it while you can). Later when they got into the whole Curse thing and how he'd been moping around for 100 years, I figured he could be interested in Buffy because he'd never had any real relationship -- he got bitten when he was young, lost his soul for a few hundred years, didn't do anything with his soul for another hundred years once he DID get it back... so Buffy really was his first real, "normal" relationship.
quote:Added: I also resent what the writers did to Spike on Angel. I know the character of Spike changed a lot over the seasons, but on Buffy he was definitely an alpha male, even when "nuetered" as a vampire. I can picture a lot of things happening, but retreating to being a comical sidekick to another vampire is not among them. He may have been love's *****, but he wasn't a sidekick for any other reason. He had to be, though, or else they'd've had to change the name of the show to Spike.
Agreed. But given that the show wasn't named Spike, how would you have explained Spike's move to the show? (Especially given that Sarah Michelle Gellar never appeared on the show to have a scene where she rejects Spike?)
Best I can come up with = Spike shows up as a ghost at Wolfram & Hart... he makes a few pathetic phone calls to Buffy, saying he knows that she's busy with some crisis saving the world, but that he'll be there as soon as he's better... then runs off to Italy as soon as he's un-ghosted... then shows back up at Wolfram & Hart a few episodes later, drunk, and we see flashbacks to a few scenes of Spike (with Buffy not seen) looking ill-at-ease in her headquarters while all sorts of important stuff is going on without him and The Immortal intimidates him with his suave charm... then showing a scene where Spike's talking to Buffy's double, and Spike's repeating some things Buffy's said ("You want me to keep an eye on him? Keep Angel on the side of the Angels? Keep Mr. Gloom from getting dragged down into the muck?... Right. Well, I'll do that for you. Especially since it'll annoy him.")
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Anyone here check out "Spike - After the Fall"? They're doing a three parter that follows him instead of Angel. I have to say that I like it better than the Angel one. But then, I like Spike better than Angel. He was a better person before getting vamped, he was a better person as a vampire (still capable of love and compassion, and chose to get his soul back), and is just all around more interesting.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Haven't seen it. Will read it sometime, but I don't like the Angel comics enough to keep buying them. (So, if you'd like to mail me yours sometime... )
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
#19 is out, finishes the time travel story.
Not sure what to think about it (right now my reaction = "Ummm?") It'll probably turn out to be important in the long run; in the short run, it didn't make much sense, and not even in any intriguing sort of way, it says that Willow's going dark again but it's not clear if that's just a possible future or THE future...
There were some funny bits from Buffy hanging out in Fray's world. But Fray et al. don't get to do anything interesting character-wise -- they're just guest stars here.
A character comes back for this one; the problem with the comic's art is that I couldn't tell for sure who it was supposed to be (could've been 2 or 3 different folks), I kinda guessed who it was, but had to look it up on another forum to confirm.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
A fun online 3-pager by Joss: link Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
That three pager was awesome! One awesome thing about Joss is you know that was written for the fans.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Oz is back! And with an actual good explanation of why he's been busy.
(That said, he's one of the characters that's hard to do in a comic book; his dialogue was so minimal on the show that it took Seth Green's acting to actually give him any presence.)
Jane Espenson's writing is pretty choppy, she doesn't have comic book pacing down yet...
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
The Immortal never met the real Buffy, even the fake is only dating him because Andrew thought it would be a funny joke. Issue 1 of Buffy season 8. Andrews character gained alot of cool points for that twisted and sadistic joke.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
... and they did the Twilight reveal in the newest issue. (Though sadly it already got spoiled a few months ago.)
Kinda a "hmmm" at this point, waiting to see what they'll do with it.
I'm waiting to see if it's a fake reveal, since I still like my it's-Ethan-Rayne theory better.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
Next Issue: Them F@#$%*&
Joss Whedon, stay classy.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I totally didn't see that coming. I still don't get it. I was also thinking it had to either be Jonathan or Ethan. But I don't think it's fake. How would Ethan know about what's been happening in LA (you know LA went to hell and then came back, right?)
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Latest issue (#35) not so interesting, but, great ending!
... but next issue isn't until September Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
Im still scratching my head as to how this ties in with Angel: After the Fall.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Possibly not. A few months ago, when the Twlight = Angel stuff leaked out, someone at IDW comics was quoted as saying, why yes, the Dark Horse folks have been talking to us about what's up with Twilight... and the guy who'd just taken over writing Angel, Bill Willingham, said kinda bluntly that this was the first time he'd heard about it...
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
I can't believe you guys haven't figured it out yet. One of them is a skrull!
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
So thats why Xander has been wearing an eyepatch!!
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
You didn't notice him making Nick Fury references? Remember, Xander is a geek.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
So Spike's got rings and black nail polish on... has this been part of his look for the IDW comics?
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Joss Whedon's writing the last 5 issues.
But, they're not as good as usual; right now, too much confusion and running around, the plot's not making any sense, weird mystical MacGuffin stuff I don't understand at all. Hope the next ones get better...
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: So thats why Xander has been wearing an eyepatch!!
It's all fun and games...
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
I am both a comic nerd and a Whedonite but I have given up on all of the Buffyverse comics, they are just so far removed from the original content in art dialogue and story. I understand that Whedon isnt obsessivly controlling every venture and allows artistic elbow room for those who are doing the long hours to produce the books but they have lost my interest and my money.
Angel more than Buffy was great in at first, it was like Angel+ because there was no roof in what they could put in front of you, and Gunn's arc was especially interesting in referance to his long running depiction (he was always my favorite) but now... the cat girl having come and gone, Illyria is house trained and Connor is well adjusted despite the hell dimension memories.
I am current on all of it and now I just want to be rid of it, I never thought I would feel like selling my books of any nature. How do you guys feel about the where Buffy and Angel have gone?
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I've had a really hard time getting into Angel but that's partly to blame on it's last couple of tv seasons. I just wasn't interested on Illyria and the whole Connor drama.
As for Buffy, it wasn't perfect but I enjoyed the first half of the run. Then came the the Twilight reveal and the weird sex scene and I just put it down and haven't been able to finish. I rid about the bug character death that came after but it's hard to care in the context of everything.
I think both stories benefitted from the limitations of tv special effects and makeup. Without those confines, it feels like they threw all their creativity into bigger than ever storylines rather than focusing on the heart and the soul of the characters.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
While I do agree on the limitations grounding them and forcing them to be better stories, Angel: After the Fall was a great arc that would have been minimized if they did it IRL and the story fit, even if just to have Angel tell Vamp-Gunn that if he had wanted to kill Angel when he was human he had been strong enough while tossing Vamp-Gunn around like a toy.
I wonder how many of the comic writers are hold-outs from the live action days... that might be part of the problem, new writers acting out thier own grandiose ideas of what the old had done wrong.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I know I keep going on and on about WaTchers, but honestly, it's much more true to the original show and the original characters and the original feel than any of the comics have been.
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