This is topic "Understanding is a three-edged sword" a.k.a. Babylon 5 Discussion Thread in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.
My roommate and I have just finished Babylon 5: Season One, and for the most part it was pretty hard to sit through.
The acting and writing is...well...bad. I do like the story and do have fond childhood memories of the show.
So my question is, and I know you've said it before, but I need to be assured: does it get better in Season Two?
I've purposely avoided any descriptions or summaries of the show, since I want to experience it as it was shown on television, so please don't give anything away. I just want to know that it's not going to be as painful as some of the Season One episodes.
[ February 01, 2008, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: The White Whale ]
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Yes, it is much MUCH better after season 1.
Posted by Raventhief (Member # 9002) on :
Yeah, it gets a bit better. IMO, the acting does get better. But then again, it'd be pretty hard to get worse. The writing gets somewhat better, and the plot becomes quite intricate and not bad. It retains its hokeyness.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I had to muscle through seasons one and two, but there are huge payoffs in season three and four, and it doesn't work if you skip.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Alright. Here we go.
Season Two: Episode One.
Engage.
Oops. Wrong series. Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Because of their 5 year plan for the plot, much of season 1 is just getting to know the players, with some hints as to the troubles in the future.
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
quote: I had to muscle through seasons one and two, but there are huge payoffs in season three and four, and it doesn't work if you skip.
Weirdly, you could say the exact same thing for DS9, if you replace 3&4 with 5&6. Another thing these shows have in common?
I should really try to watch this show sometime. I adore DS9, often just as much for the characters as the story. Is B5 worth battling through the cheese for?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
In episode 16 of the first season Psi-Corps is mentioned, but it was the second season when they began to introduce the telepaths, both registered and unregistered, and began to develop the friction between them and the governmental group (Psi-Corps) trying to control them. Seasons four and five featured the telepaths in numerous episodes, and brought out their ability to fight the Shadows. There were "free telepaths" in addition to those who were part of Psi-Corps. That whole subplot to me was worth the whole price of admission.
Babylon 5 was far, far better than Deepspace Nine. The former was collegiate level; the latter only high school level (if that).
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I just put B5 on my Netflix queue at the top. I haven't seen it in years and don't really remember much about it, but I LOVE DS9. The first couple seasons are a little dry, but I think it really picks up later on. I don't know which is better, but Ron's description of DS9 does not match my experience. Some episodes are individual flops, like any show, but overall it was quite good, especially in Seasons 4-7, with some individual episodes that blow me away.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Alright! The first episode of Season Two is already better than almost all of the last season.
Maybe it's because my roommate and I both had a strong hatred towards Commander Sinclair. He never seemed to really know what was going on. He was either sitting in his quarters watching television, annoying and otherwise harassing his staff, and always seemed a step behind everyone (including my roommate and I).
I'm actually exited to watch the rest of this show now, and I haven't been exited about a show since my first viewing of the Firefly Pilot episode.
Lyrhawn, I don't know how fast you watch shows and if you're starting at the beginning of Season 1 this may not work, but we could attempt to watch some episodes in tandem, across the states between us.
And any one else, too. I haven't had a good group of people watching the same show in...well...ever.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Well, to be honest, if you've already finished Season 1 then that would include "Signs and Portents", "Babylon Squared", "A Voice in the Wilderness", and "Chrysalis." Those particular episodes strongly hint at the quality, direction, and plot of the episodes to come. I would say that if you make it through Season 2 without getting hooked, they you may very well not get hooked.
That said, I would say that Babylon 5 is much better than DS9 on the whole, but on an individual episode level Babylon 5 can be really unpredictable. There are parts of Season 3, 4, and the end of 5 that are miles ahead of where DS9 ever got to. On the other hand there are parts of Season 1 and the first half of 5 that really grate on the nerves.
So on the whole, DS9 is a predictable comfortable popcorn affair but the show never really becomes better than the sum of its parts. However, some of those parts are pretty dang good. Babylon 5 becomes a rather unpredictable show that can put its characters and the viewer through an emotional wringer. But when you add all the parts up, it becomes something quite magical.
If you give some warning, I can actually pick out particular episodes/movies that I would recommend skipping (and have skipped when re-watching the show with a new friend) if you find the show dragging.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
White Whale -
I generally watch shows very quickly. I need to drop my DVDs in the mail, and then Netflix should get the first couple discs to me by the middle of the week, so, I don't know how fast YOU watch, but, by the time the discs stop flowing I'll be into season 2 in a weel probably. Maybe I can catch up, and if so, that sounds like fun.
I'll come back to the DS9/B5 debate after I've seen all of B5.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Back when I had bab5 on tape, I'd put a star by the episodes that moved the plot along or were really good on their own merit. Anything without a star could be skipped without missing anything.
Alas, when I got them on DVD, I threw out all the tapes...
As for DS9... I liked Bab5 better as a whole. It's a novel for TV. DS9 had an arc but it lacked the epicness that was Bab5. (It's still a great show though.)
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Mucus, and any one else who is interested.
Maybe we could choose a few of the best episodes of Season 2 and watch those is some sort of organized manner and discuss those ones, so that those who do not want to watch the bad episodes don't have to.
My roommate and I are determined to work through them all in order, so we could just watch the in between ones on our own.
Is there any interest in this?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I tried watching the first episode of Babylon 5 once because I'd heard so many good things about it. I think it was one of the worst episodes of TV I've ever seen. Porteiro keeps urging me to try watching it again, and he even gave me a list of which episodes to watch and which to skip, but I just haven't been able to bring myself to do it.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
TWW: Actually, I would not normally mind participating. However, my Babylon 5 DVDs are not at my current home and my upcoming schedule is going to be a bit unpredictable so I am not sure when I will have a chance to get them.
However, I have recently rewatched about 90% of Babylon 5 (during last summer) while introducing a friend to it so it is still reasonably fresh in my mind so I will certainly attempt to contribute to any discussions you may wish to start
PS: "In order" is a bit of tricky thing when it comes to the Babylon 5 universe. The tricky bits are the movies and the two aborted spinoffs. Best to completely avoid those on your first pass unless you really find yourself enjoying Babylon 5. The exceptions are the "In the Beginning" and to a lesser extent "Thirdspace" movies which you can watch at the end of third season if you want to hit those without spoilers.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
My recommendation is to watch about half of season 1, but all of season 2.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
One other thing that I'd like to add.
Some parts of Babylon 5 are timeless. If anything, the storylines surrounding Earth's relations with other species and the Narn/Centauri conflict are eerily more relevant now than in 1994 when Babylon 5 first aired given intervening events like 9/11, Iraq, the immigration debate, etc. However, other elements, especially in Season 1 are getting rather dated.
The problem is that Season 1 is both setup and proving ground. At the time, CGI was no where near where it was now and Babylon 5 pioneered the use of it for all "outside" scenes. On the other hand, DS9 with a much larger budget had a bit of a debate between CGI shots and model shots and essentially switched between the two during Babylon 5's run, even going to the extent of hiring one of the companies involved in creating B5's effects.
The bigger problem in terms of story is that one of the important things that Season 1 had to do was to break many of the conventions that had dominated Star Trek: The Next Generation (the only other real science fiction competitor on tv at that time) and getting the audience to accept them. These include conventions like long continuing storylines (without being labelled a "soap opera", a commonly heard charge in those days) and subverting certain audience expectations.
$ Pseudo-spoiler warning for those that have not watched Season 1 $ $ $ $ That includes stuff like the heroes *not* being able stop the "ticking clock" bomb and that having big consequences later. Getting into ethical dilemmas, making the "right" ethical decision and it turning out to be "wrong" anyways. The fact that mankind is not a real leader in the galaxy and rather than worrying about a Prime directive and affecting other species, we have to worry about other species manipulating us and making our ethical decisions for us.
$$$ End spoilers $$$
Now some of these elements seem everyday after the latter half of DS9 became more plotted, shows like Stargate brought long continuing storylines to the masses, and BSG went with much tighter arcs (at least in Season 1) and real consequences.
However, in B5 these things have to be established in season 1 before the plot can really start breaking the conventions even further in later seasons.
In a way, the slight dating is a good thing. It would be bad if science fiction on TV had not improved since Babylon 5 ended nine years ago, or so.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Mucus, yeah. We haven't even looked at the movies. We're sticking just to the series.
And we're watching an episode every day, well, maybe six episodes a week. We would then finish Season two in three or four weeks. He's agreed to commit to that pace.
Lyrhawn, that would allow you to catch up within a week or two and then we could either ramp up our watching pace or something, and we'd be in step with each other.
I don't watch any live television anymore, just what me and my friends have on DVD. I would have no problem amping up the pace if that works best.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'll let you know when I finish the first season Whale.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: one of the important things that Season 1 had to do was to break many of the conventions that had dominated Star Trek: The Next Generation
Actually having bathrooms in space was definitely one of the highlights of season 1 of B5!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I just got the first disc in the mail and I'm halfway through it. Seems pretty average so far, the graphics are a little amusing, but I'm used to such better quality that I can't really fault a 10+ year old show for having them look like that, especially when they won awards for good graphics in the 90's.
And what's up with the actors most people have never heard of that LOOK like major movie stars?
I might be done with S1 by the end of next week.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
plaid: Not a bad example actually. Now, bathrooms on tv science fiction are actually present. Firefly had them and BSG even had a great scene in one ("Thats it! No more Mr. Nice Gaius!") So the average viewer now would probably see the bathroom scene and be, "oh, thats kind of a cheap set" *shrug* Of course, at the time it was intended to be sort of a funny nod or poke, a graphical in-joke for viewers of science fiction if you will.
Thats a just a minor example. But I can think of one or two episodes that are really only interesting in that way though, as in they're almost "This is what you would see in a Twilight Zone version of Star Trek." Luckily that kind of thing goes away after first year.
Lyrhawn: Which actors are you referring to? The actor playing Garibaldi kinda struck me as a Bruce Willis-lite at first, but I doubt we're both thinking about him.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
That's exactly who I was thinking of, and that exact comparison.
I also think Sheridan kind of looks and sounds like Michael Douglas.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Garibaldi is most definitely a Bruce Willis wannabe.
And we just finished the sixth episode of Season Two, and while some of them have been bad, for the most part they are significantly better that Season 1.
I wish they had more of Kosh though. I rules.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Lyrhawn: Wacky parallel thought processes. (at least with Garibaldi, don't see the Sheridan comparison) How did you hear/see Sheridan already? Did you start with the prequel movie or did you skip ahead?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Bester is Chekov from Star Trek.
Lennier is Will Robinson from Lost in Space.
Delenn is in LOST now. Before Bab5 she was a big romantic movie star in eastern Europe.
G'Kar was "The One Armed Man" in the Harrison Ford version of The Fugative. He has since passed on. (As has Dr Franklin)
Vir was in Animal House (I believe)
Susan's been in a couple of minor movies that didn't go anywhere.
Lyta (If you're far enough in to know who she is) is a professional stunt woman.
Garibaldi is now a radio talk show host.
When you get to the end of season 3, yes that IS Laura from little house on the prarie.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Oh, and season 4 has Scott Adams (Dilbert) in it for all of 15 seconds.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:G'Kar was "The One Armed Man" in the Harrison Ford version of The Fugative. He has since passed on. (As has Dr Franklin)
He was also the Romulan command Tomalok, a reoccuring antagonist in ST:TNG
quote:Vir was in Animal House (I believe)
He was Flounder in Animal House.
quote:Susan's been in a couple of minor movies that didn't go anywhere.
She was Bill's mother in Freaks and Geeks
quote:Lyta (If you're far enough in to know who she is) is a professional stunt woman.
She's also played minor roles in a couple of ST:TNG episodes.
quote:When you get to the end of season 3, yes that IS Laura from little house on the prarie.
With her nose job, I totally couldn't recognize her.
quote:Garibaldi is most definitely a Bruce Willis wannabe.
I said that over and over last time I watched through B5.
----
Last night we picked up our little one from the babysitters, and they were all excited because they were in the middle of the season 3 episode "War Without End".
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Mucus - I've seen bits and pieces of the series before, so I know who Sheridan is. I've just never watched the whole thing straight from start to finish.
And I totally didn't notice that G'kar was Tomalok! Can't believe I missed that one, I knew he looked and sounded familiar.
You're zippin by pretty fast there White Whale, I don't know if I'll be able to catch up with you with the rate Netflix is sending my discs. It'll probably a week or more until I finish S1, and another week to catch up to where you are currently. But I'll try.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
So which episodes of season 1 should I skip?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
For season 1 skip
The Gathering (Start with Midnight on the Firing Line, the first episode rather than this "true" pilot) Soul Hunter Infection Deathwalker (maybe) Believers (probably) TKO (must-skip) Grail (maybe)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I made the following list of episodes to watch (skipping the rest) for Jon Boy, who was already negatively predisposed to B5:
Midnight on the Firing Line 101 SOUL HUNTER 102 BORN TO THE PURPLE 103 THE PARLIAMENT OF DREAMS 105 AND THE SKY FULL OF STARS 108 DEATHWALKER 109 SIGNS AND PORTENTS 113 A VOICE IN THE WILDERNESS, PART 1 118 A VOICE IN THE WILDERNESS, PART 2 119 BABYLON SQUARED 120 CHRYSALIS 122
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I own all five seasons but usually only rewatch seasons 2-4. I didn't like Sinclair's character and his acting was stiff. I recently decided to go back to the first season and I really think it's just Sinclair that got me. Some of the other actors needed a break in time and did get better, but the characters were good from the start. I'm not sure who Sinclair was ever supposed to be. He seemed ruled by the plot.
Plus, it's far more episodic in the early shows and frankly, you can skip a few of them without missing a beat. (I had a list at one time but I've lost it.)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I started watching in season 2 myself. Luckily, I had a friend who was able to fill me in on what I had missed.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Mph and TWW -
Where are you guys at currently? Just curious. I'm still only halfway through the first season.
Posted by Snail (Member # 9958) on :
I bought the fourth and fifth seasons of B5 before Christmas, and have been watching them. But then I went back and watched some of the earlier episodes to remind me of what I had forgotten.
So currently I'm watching the very end of Season 4 and the halfway of Season 2 side by side. I have to say, I think when comparing the two there's considerable improvement in the acting of the main characters. I'm not sure if they give great performances in Season 4, but you can see they have grown into their characters. It's way less awkward than in seasons 1 and 2.
When the series was shown on Finnish television the first episode I ever caught was "In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum" at the end of Season 2. If you ask me that's the perfect place to start watching the series, because it's a very tightly scripted episode and begins a string of mostly great episodes that lasts all the way until the end of Season 4. (To be honest, I think much of Season 2 before that is just as bad as Season 1.) It's also not too difficult to join the storyline at that point, and if you become a True Fan you can always catch the beginning of the series later.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Lyrhawn and Snail, the last episode we watched was "In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum." I watched the series sporadically when I was young, and it was this plot that I remember. The acting and special effects are much better than earlier episodes, and I now feel like the makers of the show have hit their stride.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
The series really picked up for me too in the second season.
Season one is rather weak in terms of having some fairly cheesy episodes. Combined with the low production values, such episodes turned me off from watching the entire series. Examples of such episode s are the one with the Soul Hunter or whatever it was, or the fighting match episode. Anyway, I hesitantly gave the series another chance and resumed the first season after a pause of a year. I'm glad I did. It's now one of my favorite shows of all time.
Btw, season 5 is somewhat of an optional season--you can really just only watch the final episode of it, which was originally filmed for season 4 as its finale but pushed back to season 5 when it turned out JMS would get one more season after all.
The reason season 5 is optional is because, as mentioned above, JMS thought 4 would be his last and proceeded stuff season 4 with all the important remaining story lines and events he had envisioned. He didn't have much left over for 5, so the season overall feels somewhat funny compared to 2 through 4. But I feel though it's somewhat redeemed in its second half.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I'm half way through season one. I love how they are so predictable, the episodes.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Teshi, at some points, me and my roommate were shouting out the actor's lines before they said it themselves. Now I can understand being able to predict some of the endings and plot twists, but being able to predict dead on the dialogue? Come on!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
My best friend and I can do that sometimes. It's scary sometimes when we nail it dead on. The really predictable ones aren't that hard to guess.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by the_Somalian: ... whatever it was, or the fighting match episode.
*L* When I said "TKO (must-skip)" I meant it. But I suppose I was much too late to warn you Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Gut wrenching scene from season 4 that always stuck with me.
Thats a clip from "In the Beginning" which was a TV movie prequel made sort of in way that the Stargate SG1 movies are now.
Its best to watch that at least after Season 2 (or at least the first few episodes of S2) but it is quite good.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
^What he said. I believe it's merely the depiction of material we were informed of through seasons 1-4, but my memory could be faulty and it could contain more revelations. Anyway, it's VERY spoiler laden for someone who hasn't seen seasons 2 through mid season 4!
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Right, the framing story ties into Season 3 and there's a bit of season 4 too now that I look it up. the_Somalian is right, best to wait till after season 4 (although I have used it once to introduce a very reluctant viewer to Babylon 5 since it is very good (miles ahead of The Gathering as an introduction to the show) and is the only one of the tv movies that is "must-see")
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
How many movies are there, and in what chronological order do they go?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
The Gathering: Takes place just before S1 In the Beginning: Ten years before S1 but should only be watched after watching S4. Thirdspace: After S3. The River of Souls: S5 or after S5 (not sure, doesn't matter) A Call to Arms: 5 years after S5 The Legend of the Rangers: A couple years after S5 Voices in the Dark: 10 years after S5
I only really recommend "In the Beginning" for the reluctant viewer
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I recommend against all of them for the reluctant viewer.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I respectfully disagree Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I think we might be using different definitions here, because in my view a reluctant viewer isn't going to make it through four seasons in order to get to the point where you say they should watch it.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Maybe, what I meant is that for a viewer like Lyrhawn who has already gotten halfway through S1 or for someone that you're pretty sure will make it through S1, it is best to wait till S4 to see it to stop from hitting any spoilers.
However, I once had a roommate who saw it on my shelf and to my great surprise, they said that it was the only Babylon 5 they had ever seen and they really enjoyed it (except for the small framing story, which was confusing and they just ignored). As I said, I also introduced a close friend, totally unimpressed with science fiction normally, to Babylon 5 that way (who subsequently got hooked) and I was pretty sure based on their personality that they would have have passed if they had seen S1 first.
So to clarify, if they're mildly reluctant, but there is a chance they'll at least start with S1, best to wait till S4. If they're very reluctant and you figure thats probably the only B5 they'll *ever* see, it may be reasonable to start with this so you can at least communicate some of the ideas and the epic quality of the story.
[ January 30, 2008, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Mucus ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Ah, I see what you mean now. That makes sense.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
I think I am more of the type that is determined to enjoy Babylon 5 no matter how bad certain episodes may be.
Would you recommend those movies for a determined viewer? Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
In that case, I'd recommend The Gathering and In The Beginning.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Honestly, I'd still say to skip The Gathering unless you really want to see the beginnings of Babylon 5. Its like seeing the first Star Trek pilot with Christopher Pike, interesting for the curious viewer but ultimately not that relevant and kinda boring.
Similarly, In The Beginning is unnecessary, but its the *good* kind of unnecessary (sort of like Infernal Affairs II rather than the Star Wars prequels)
I rather liked A Call to Arms, but it is the lead-in to Crusade which makes it somewhat of a mixed bag.
The others are rather like longer standalone episodes *shrug* B5 doesn't work well in small chunks.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
quote:Originally posted by the_Somalian: The series really picked up for me too in the second season.
Season one is rather weak in terms of having some fairly cheesy episodes. Combined with the low production values, such episodes turned me off from watching the entire series. Examples of such episode s are the one with the Soul Hunter or whatever it was, or the fighting match episode.
Huh, I liked the Soul Hunter one a lot, it was the first B5 episode I saw that made me feel like I understood why folks liked it. (But I watched it back in the '90s, maybe the production values would bother me more now?)
Absolutely agree though about the boxing one. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
quote:The reason season 5 is optional is because, as mentioned above, JMS thought 4 would be his last and proceeded stuff season 4 with all the important remaining story lines and events he had envisioned. He didn't have much left over for 5, so the season overall feels somewhat funny compared to 2 through 4. But I feel though it's somewhat redeemed in its second half.
Season 5 is pretty dull. I remember reckoning that there were maybe 5 good episodes in the whole season. It's not just that there's less happening, it's that most of the shows were poorly written -- seeming like they were just JMS's first drafts -- and the production was pretty bad (the atmospheric lighting was gone and suddenly everything was all brightly lit and extra cheesy-looking).
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
If it weren't for the fact that it furthers the Lando/G'Kar relationship, I'd say ditch season 5 entirely.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: If it weren't for the fact that it furthers the Lando/G'Kar relationship, I'd say ditch season 5 entirely.
Lando is on Babylon 5? When does he get there?
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Time to change the thread title!
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
quote:Originally posted by plaid: Season 5 is pretty dull. I remember reckoning that there were maybe 5 good episodes in the whole season. It's not just that there's less happening, it's that most of the shows were poorly written -- seeming like they were just JMS's first drafts -- and the production was pretty bad (the atmospheric lighting was gone and suddenly everything was all brightly lit and extra cheesy-looking).
I'll agree with this when it comes to Byron. But the "who's attacking Alliance ships" plot line was gold.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Basically, whenever I rewatch Season 5, I skip any episodes that have much to do with Byron's colony. Except possibly the last one or two with Bester, I just love that character.
I rather enjoy the Narn-Centauri arc in Season 5, but I can understand how some would find it slow.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I love the part with Lyta and everyone tapping and Sheridan and the gun. One of the best scenes in the whole thing.
But I want my telepath war!!!!!
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Telegoths... *shudder*
They needed Pantine product placement.. and to form an 80s hair band.
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: If it weren't for the fact that it furthers the Lando/G'Kar relationship, I'd say ditch season 5 entirely.
mph, this sums up much of my views on the whole thing I mean, I actually like the majority of the series, but the Lando/G'Kar dynamic was by far the best part in my opinion (and the only thing that made me want to muck through season 5 really...)
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
"Knives" and "Confessions and Lamentations" were awful episodes.
"News! News gives me the creeps."
That is all I have to say for now.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
So we (my roommate and I (and a growing number of my suite mates who have gotten hooked) ) have just finished Season 2, and I am in a good mood.
First, the most painful thing about this show is the outdated special effects. It's not like some shows where even with a low budget they can make their special effects somewhat timeless. Instead, you get hard to watch periods where you're reminded of the computer games you played ten years ago. In particular, the scene in the last episode where Sheridan is in the trolley and jumps out after the bomb explodes. Absolutely painful.
Second, as some of you have said before, the show has reached the scale of epic, and it is significantly more watchable now that lame episodes that seem to serve no purpose are eliminated. Admittedly, there are still lame moments, but they're fewer now.
Third, I am so glad that they took Sinclair off. The guy just couldn't act. While Sheridan isn't a fantastic actor, he fits in just fine, is actually believable, and is able to make speeches and make them sound good.
Fourth, the Londo/G'Kar dynamic is excellent, and I look forward to episodes with them. Delenn is more often than not just boring. Kosh is awesome. Garibaldi is pretty lame, and Dr. Franklin is kind of a downer. Especially in "And Now for a Word," when he is interviewed, he gives this incredibly macabre story about his childhood students. The rest of the episode is somewhat funny, being this lame news channel with lame commercials, but his story was just so out of place:
quote:"A buddy of mine was messing around, zipping through the halls. And he hid in one of the air locks. I don't know, I guess he was going to scare us or something, I don't know. But just as I got close, he must have hit the wrong button because the air doors slammed shut and the space doors opened and he just flew out into space. The one thing they never tell you is that you don't die instantly in a vacuum, he just hung there against the black, a puppet with the strings all tangled up, or like one of those old cartoons where you run off a cliff and your legs keep going. You could see that he was trying to breathe but there was just nothing. The one thing I remember when they pulled in his body was that his eyes were frozen. A lot of people make jokes about spacing somebody, about shoving somebody out an air lock. I don't think it's funny. Never will."
Me and my roommate were screaming “My friend was spaced!” for days afterward.
Best Moments:
1.Vir insulting Morden in “In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum”
2. Anything Kosh did or said.
3.G'Kar quoting Yates in “Revelations.”
4.Londo analyzing the Hokey-Pokey song. “It does not mean anything. I've been studying it for seven days. I had the computer analyze it. I swear to you: it does not mean a thing!"
5.The episode “The Long, Twilight Struggle.”
6.Vir apologizing to G'Kar in the elevator in “Comes the Inquisitor”. G'Kar: “Dead! Dead! Dead! Dead! Dead! How do you apologize to them!?” Vir: “I can't!” G'Kar: “Then I cannot forgive.”
Worst Moments:
1.Ivanova having “sex” with the Lumati delegate in “Acts of Sacrifice.” “Boom! Shabba-labba-labba.” Just awful.
2.Any stupid fight that started in a stupid bar started by some stupid human for some stupid reason.
3.Any bar scene, for that matter. Bartender: “Hey! What do you call 2 billion dead Markev? Planetary redecorating! Ha! News...news gives me the creeps.” or “Nuke 'em till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark!” from another episode.
4.Delenn saying “Abso-fraggin-lutely, damn it!” in “The Long, Twilight Struggle.”
5.Delenn discussing the word 'butt' with Sheridan in “Divided Loyalties.” And I quote: “Butt? Butt. I butt, you butt, he or she butts...butt butt...butt butt.” Sheridan: “You sound like a motor boat.” Delenn: “Motor-butt? I don't think I like the sound of that.”
I hope the rest of you who are also watching the show are having as much fun as I am. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm onto disc two in Season 2. (slowly catching up?)
I laughed so hard at the Hokey Pokey part with Londo. God that was funny.
Already this season is better and I'm excited.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: Instead, you get hard to watch periods where you're reminded of the computer games you played ten years ago. In particular, the scene in the last episode where Sheridan is in the trolley and jumps out after the bomb explodes. Absolutely painful.
The amusing thing is if you watch his hair, there is a distinct lack of wind.
For me though, video games actually had the opposite effect. I'm less impressed by special effects in general since I always know that my PC will be able to generate better effects than the next SFX blockbuster in just a few years, no matter how impressive they are. So I'm free to focus on the story since I don't watch shows for special effects *shrug*
quote: 3.Any bar scene, for that matter. Bartender: “Hey! What do you call 2 billion dead Markev? Planetary redecorating! Ha! News...news gives me the creeps.” or “Nuke 'em till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark!” from another episode.
Actually, those scenes are kinda *supposed* to highlight how stupid humans are. The "Nuke'em" quote is probably a "dropped-in" quote referring to something that someone said in real life historically, just like "peace in our time" in the last episode.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Actually, those scenes are kinda *supposed* to highlight how stupid humans are. The "Nuke'em" quote is probably a "dropped-in" quote referring to something that someone said in real life historically, just like "peace in our time" in the last episode.
Alright, I can understand that. But can't they just once show some human who's not in the main cast who's not a dimwit or a reactionary drone?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
The cast is big, no? But anyways, there are plenty but the most prominent example that is not on the main cast would be Bester. I really like that character Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I fastforwarded through the Ivanova "sex" scene. That was funny, but odd.
The development of Londo and G'Kar is gut wrenchingly awesome. G'Kar especially, the poor guy, his people are being dominated, he wants help but can't get it, he shows willingness to give up a lifetime of hatred when the Centauri Emperor comes to town, only to have it thrown back in his face. Londo on the other hand has similar dreams of seeing his people rise again, but doesn't understand or like the price he's paying to get there. Him sitting in the bar waiting for Garibaldi was sad too.
This season is just awesome so far. I'm a little over halfway through and loving it. I'm also struck by a few similarities to DS9, it's a little disturbing really. I know there was a debate over how DS9 stole from B5, and there are some plot similarities, though thus far the characters themselves are 100% different, near as I can tell.
I still like DS9 more, but B5 is slowly creeping into the place in my heart I have reserved for awesome sci-fi. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I just finished "In the Shadow of Z'Had'um" Good episode. Vir is a cool little secondary character. Two discs left and then I'm done with Season 2.
I sent back Disc 4 to Netflix like a week ago and they never got it, so I reported it as missing. They immediately emailed me an apology and sent out my next disc. I was really impressed by the service. They didn't grill me or try to get me to pay for it, they just apologized to ME for the inconvenience and sent along my next disc. That was pretty awesome. I even feel bad that the disc was lost.
Anyway, I'll be done with S2 by Friday. I can't wait to see how this ends!
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Lyrhawn, at that rate, we should be at the same place by this weekend or early next week. Me and my roommate are still shooting for one episode a day, any more than that and it may start to interfere with any plans of completing thesis or actually graduating by May, but that still gives approx. 84 days to finish the semester (with about 60 episodes to go).
But then again, feel free to zip ahead of us if you wish.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
With the level of awesomeness this season is heading towards, I don't know if I'll be able to hold myself back. But, we could probably watch an episode or two together before I pass ya.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm on to Season 3. Looks good!
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
It is good. I'm on episode 9 of the third season, and am fining about 80% of it fantastic. Every once in a while, there is still a cringe inducing moment, but there are also some moments that make me want to stand up and clap.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Oh, and everything hits the fan in episode ten, and
it
is
AWESOME!
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
"Severed Dreams" huh? That has SO many of my favorite moments from B5 in it.
That one episode is worth watching the entire series for.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm already onto the fourth episode of the third season. I should be caught up to you White Whale by the end of the week.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I *love* season 3. I'll post longer thoughts when you guys reach the end, but for now I'll post some general thoughts. As I mentioned before, Season 1 (and season 2 to a lesser extent) was setup and proving ground.
As I mentioned before, the general idea before was to present a story essentially about a United Nations in space, something that could theoretically exist in something like a Star Trek universe, but to throw in the occasional twist, break conventions, and subvert the general idea so that things "aren't quite right."
Season 3 is when the show throws that out the window and goes in a totally new direction and all that planning pays off in a big way. Even the season 3 title sequence shows something that you shouldn't quite know about yet in the series, but it still works well.
The White Whale: What are some of the moments in S3 that made you want to stand up and clap (or cringe for that matter) ? Although I realise you may have been using the phrase figuratively, but I usually don't get quite that involved (either way) so I'm curious what made you react that way.
Lyrhawn and The White Whale: Out of sheer curiosity, how do you guys feel about the "lower-key" episodes? I'll pick "Passing through "Passing Through Gethsemane" arbitrarily as a start since I think both of you watched it already.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I liked "Passing Through Gethsemane." Interesting choice of title for the episode too. I'd say in the first season the throw away episodes were hit or miss. Either they were entertaining as stand alones or they were episodes you watch just to make sure you don't miss details that would be necessary later on. But even the stand alones so far in this season are good.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Note: This post is filled with spoilers.
I agree with Lyrhawn, the stand-alone episodes are better than the previous two seasons. I liked "Passing Through Gethsemane," thought it was well done and didn't fall into the cheesiness that many of these side stories fall into. However, when the main characters are involved, and with the epic war going on, I can't help but wonder how everything has returned to normal long enough for these episode to play out. I imagine, with all of the politicking and managing that needs to go on every day, they would hardly have time to deal with or relax long enough for meaningful side adventures.
They do address this, at some points. In (312) "A Late Delivery from Avalon," Sheridan does say, in reference to "Arthur":
quote:"As interesting a diversion as this might be, our first concern right now has to be getting this treaty worked out."
But in response to Mucus, here are some of the points that made me want to clap:
In (310) "Severed Dreams" :
The speech given by Sheridan declaring independence from the Earth Alliance:
quote:"...as of this moment, Babylon 5 is cecseding from the Earth Alliance. We will remain an independent state until President Clarke is removed from office."
The episode itself feels like a movie, so we got caught up in the moment and cheered for Sheridan.
Also, when Delenn delivered her ultimatum to the earth forces who are attacking Babylon 5:
quote:Delenn: "Babylon 5 is under our protection. Withdraw...or be destroyed." Earth forces: "Negative, we have authority here. Do not force us to engage your ship." Delenn: "Why not? Only one human has every survived battle with a Mimbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
And others, while not making me want to clap, were also several powerful moments, either due to moments in the epic storyline, or the surprising development of a previously minor character (i.e. Vir):
Regarding Londo and Vir:
In the episode (309) "Point of No Return," when Lady Morella was prophesizing to Londo :
quote:Lady Morella to Londo: "One more thing. You will be Emperor. That part of your destiny can not be avoided." Londo: "I see." Lady Morella to Vir: "You will also be emperor." Londo: "Lady Morella, please. We can not both be Emperor." Lady Morella: "Correct. One of you will become Emperor .. after the other is dead. That is all we see and all we wish to see."
It makes both Londo and Vir much more complicated characters, and it fundamentally alters their relationship with each other. In (311) "Ceremonies of Light and Dark," when Londo poisoned Refa's drink, we get to see how Londo thrives in the politicking and sly back-stabbing. It is exiting, IMHO, to see him in this form. I can almost see why he is so resistant to changing his ways, since he's so good at it.
quote:Refa: "Why? Why did you do this?" Londo: "To guarantee your cooperation, and because, sooner or later you would do it to me. Yes, we are returning to the old ways, Refa, and poison was always the instrument of choice in the old republic, and being something of a sentimentalist, I got here first."
Also, when Londo stayed with Lanir while he was in the coma in (302) "Convictions" :
quote:Londo: "I'm gong to take a break now [from talking], and wait for you to talk. And if you don't I'll just start talking again...and we wouldn't want that, now would we?...take your time...no pressure...I'll wait..."
Also, the "mind rape" G'Kar did on Londo in episode (306) "Dust to Dust," especially the quick and dramatic rush of images and memories, it was very powerful, both for Londo and G'Kar.
However, there has been a fair share of cringe-worthy moments:
The computer AI getting a Brooklyn-type accent and "personality."
Londo and the bug in his room.
King Arthur? I mean, really? Where did that guy get chain mail and a sword in space?
Sheridan and Delenn, I guess we're supposed to feel chemistry between them? I usually just want the story to focus back on Kosh, Londo/G'Kar, or Vir.
Oh, and I now have a new favorite moment, in (313) "Sic Transit Vir" :
quote:Vir: "There were other women, but I never got past one." Ivanova: "Um, uh...ah...You mean first base." Vir: "No, no, I mean one. You see, we have six uh .. we have six, you see, and each one is a different level of intimacy and pleasure. So, you know, first you have one, and that's meh. Then there's two .. and by you get to five it's a heehaa-heehaa."
It's probably a lame and cheesy moment, but I couldn't stop laughing.
I'm just past halfway now, should be done by next week with the Third Season.
[ February 18, 2008, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: The White Whale ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:It's probably a lame and cheesy moment, but I couldn't stop laughing.
I sure enjoyed it.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I see the chemistry between Sheridan and Delenn. I felt like they were trying to push Sinclair and Delenn together in the first season and I wasn't buying it at all, but these two are okay.
And I loved the lightbulb joke.
Londo: How many Centauri does it take to screw in a lightbulb? One. But in the glory days of the Republican, hundreds of servents would screw in lightbulbs at our command.
Something like that, but it was funny.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Remember those 5 when you catch Londo playing poker.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Right, and that's why he complained so much when they had a Londo action figure, lacking all of the good bits.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I love how whenever the Centauri talk about sex or masculinity (such as all the examples mentioned here), they do this gesture with both of their hands indicating their rib cage area.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
quote:Right, and that's why he complained so much when they had a Londo action figure, lacking all of the good bits.
One of my favorite lines...
Ivanova: So it appears you've been symbolically cast... Sheridan: (Angrily) Ivanova! Londo: (looks ready to explode) Ivanova: (Innocently) cast in a bad light.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Re: Point of Return Severed Dreams is an obvious favourite, but I also have a special place in my heart for that episode simply because its one of the few science fiction episodes that I can think of where the day was saved by legal-babble rather than techno-babble, and yet it still works very well on an entertainment level
Re: Dust to Dust The G'Kar and Londo relationship is very interesting and even at this point their shared history makes that kind of montage very effective. Their relationship pretty much rescues S5 for me (damn you telepath colony!)
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm on episode 11 right now.
Re: E10....Dude!
That was friggin awesome! I don't know how they can top that.
[Edit to add: Londo and the insect are hilarious]
[ February 22, 2008, 04:00 AM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I just finished Season 3.
W o w. That was amazing. I couldn't believe the big finish. I hope to start Season 4 in the next couple days.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Also just finished Season 3. The last episode got me worried, it seemed that it had potential to get incredibly lame, but I should trust the show enough now to know that it has some sort of epic, dramatic sucker punch to make it all worth it in the end.
So Lyrhawn, I guess you're officially caught up. We're doing one or two episodes a day.
I'll do a summary of the best and worst moments of Season 3 (second half) in a few days, when I'm not so busy.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Yeah, I re-watched a bit of season 3 and I can definitely say that it includes much that appeals to me about B5.
I especially like the fact that there is essentially one time travel event, but that one event has repercussions throughout the history of the series including the previous war against the Shadows and a longer glimpse at essentially the end of the G'Kar/Londo relationship (which is a nice twist on the expectations from when we saw it in first season). What especially impressed me was that this is probably the only example to date where a TV show essentially time travelled "forward" in the series in a planned fashion.
The reveal at Z'ha'dum was nice too, I recall that there were substantial debates online about whether the Shadows were actually right about the whole thing Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Spoilers aplenty:
I've got a few questions about the planning of the show:
Did they have a pretty concrete plan when they started the show? Or did they make most of it up as they went along?
I have trouble figuring this out, because they got rid of Sinclair after the first season, and I thought it was because he was a bad actor and was dragging the show down. If this is the case, did they plan (from Season 1?) to have him be Valen, or did they replan the whole storyline at the beginning of the second season?
Mucus, you're right. The time travel episode was one of the most complete and well executed ones I've ever seen, with it stretching back to Season 1 and up to (I assume) the end of the show.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
JMS had the outline of the entire 5-season show done when they started the show.
However, he didn't stick with it all the time.
Sinclair was always supposed to become Valen, but he wasn't supposed to drop out of the show so early. In the DVD commentary somewhere he says that he realized that he had too much planned for the character with both the Minbari and the Shadows/Vorlon. So he essentially split the character into two, had Sinclair do most of the Minbari/Valen half, and had Sheridan do the Shadow/Vorlon half.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Now it all clicks, and now I don't dislike Sinclair so much.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Yeah, if you have to leave a show, becoming the equivalent of a living god is pretty good on the list of possible results.
Kes from Voyager became insane, Sliders shot one cast member and had another sentenced to a breeding camp, even on B5 Talia was essentially overwritten.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Just a few episodes left in Season 4. They sure are packing it in, but I wish they'd do more to explain what those little creatures with the eyes are that attach to people, and how it ties into the future that Sheridan saw of Centauri Prime in ruins with Londo has a possessed Emperor. I love that other plot lines are finally being resolved, but that one really has me curious.
It looks like we're nearing the big finale.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Halfway through Season 5 now. It seems like the BAM! isn't really there this season, which I guess is understandable considering the climax is already gone, but I like what they are doing with G'Kar and Londo. Without it, I doubt it'd be much worth watching.
It's funny, usually with shows I love, when they end I say "wait no! One more season!" And it feels like this time I got it, since they were planning to kill it after four (though it was planned for five). And ironically, I think four ended beautifully, and I would have been just fine with that.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Yeah, the combination of the near cancellation, Claudia's departure, and Byron really sucked the life out of the first half of season 5. *sigh*
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Now I'm worried.
We're nearing the end of Season 4 here in my apartment, and I'm still getting great satisfaction out of the shows.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I did note "first half" One of the three problems gets solved with great satisfaction.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
There IS good stuff in the first half of the fifth season, but to me it's not the same as it was. It feels like we're back in season one with all the tension building since the climax is already past. Byron annoyed me. Either the plot was wrong or the character was or the actor just couldn't pull it off, but, his dialogue really, really annoyed me, and I didn't buy it.
SPOILER sorta
And I'm really surprised by how they are treating Lyta. I like Sheridan and Delenn, and Franklin and Allen, and I find it hard to believe that'd be so callous and thoughtless towards Lyta after the instrumental role she has played over the last couple seasons in turning the tides in their favor. Twice now she's been the KEY element in pivotal battles for Sheridan, and she only gets a perfunctory "thanks" and a boot from her quarters? I understand they don't much like telepaths, but geez, what does she have to do to prove that she's loyal and a good person? I don't like how she was treated, though I see it as the obvious set up for her involvement with Byron. Still, it's too much of a departure for me from how I view the rest of the characters, to believe that they'd be that rude to her.
UNSPOILER
I'll be all done with it soon, and then it's on to the movies. It's been a great ride, and I'll be watching for the DVDs to go on sale so I can snag Seasons 2-4. Sad to say, I can do without 1 and 5. Maybe if I see them on sale, but, nah. The only thing I miss from S1 is Delenn actually in Minbari mode, and some of the stuff with G'Kar and Londo. I suppose I'd have to get it eventually, and I guess I have to get 5 if I want what was supposed to be the finale episode to S4. Oh well, all in good time.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
NO ONE likes Byron. What a tool.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Halfway through Season 5 now. It seems like the BAM! isn't really there this season, which I guess is understandable considering the climax is already gone, but I like what they are doing with G'Kar and Londo. Without it, I doubt it'd be much worth watching.
Very yes.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
quote:Originally posted by the_Somalian: NO ONE likes Byron. What a tool.
You mean the emo hair-band refugee??
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
The telepathetic refugee with the high-pro glow?
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
We've got two episodes in the Fourth Season, and we'll finish them tomorrow.
Next week is my Spring Break, so I can do a Best/Worst of the Third and Fourth Seasons, because they're fun.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Finished Season 4.
They could have dropped that last episode and we wouldn't have missed anything.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
The last episode of season 5 was filmed as the last episode of season 4. When they got renewed, they filmed the New last episode of 4. So it's about the quality of the rest of season 5. (Except, of course, the series finale which is good again)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I enjoyed the last episode of season 4.
But yeah, it doesn't really fit.
But it wasn't supposed to -- it was supposed to take the place of all of season 5.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Eh, I liked it too. But I'm a sucker for stories like Foundation or Canticle that loosely trace the development of a society over great spans of time.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
How about stories that blatantly rip off Canticle? Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Definitely. If only I could get a TV show that rips off Foundation Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
SPOILERS . . . . . . Okay, with four episodes to go in S5, I'm feeling "meh" about this season. The telepath thing as represented by Byron isn't interesting to me. Lyta has totally changed, and I'm not uninterested in her change, but I think they would have been served better by having less Byron and more Lyta. I liked the Londo and G'Kar evolution, but I hate that Londo has been taken over by a Keeper. It seemed like after the "war" they could have settled things so easily and even after the bombardment the Alliance could have helped them. I hate seeing Sheridan at such a loss, and I hate Londo finally getting to the top but paying that price for it. It sucks. I really like Londo .
The war in general seemed pretty goofy. It was so short, it was barely a war, it really looked like what it was: a plot that couldn't last longer than a season that had to end a few episodes before the season did. In many ways I wish they had done all this stuff with Londo and G'Kar last season so I wouldn't have to deal with S5 at all. I don't have the same bittersweet sort of happy ending feeling that I had at the end of S4, now it's really just disappointment.
Blah.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Yes, now I'm definitely going to be telling people to avoid the 5th season entirely and to conclude season 4 with "Sleeping in Light" as originally intended. There are payoffs in season 5, but I don't think they're worth slogging through the whole season for.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
So I just googled "Canticle." Huh, a major science fiction novel I haven't read...
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Personally, I just skip the first half of the season. That is watch the first two episodes then skip to Phoenix Rising when the telepath story ends. The end of the Londo story and G'Kar story is too integral to the story to just skip.
$ Spoiler $ $ $ $ $
Londo's fate is somewhat preordained and in fact this is a lot better than it "could" have been.
Keep in mind that we knew even in the first episode that Londo had his dream about his death with G'Kar at his throat. At the time we were supposed to assume that they die as enemies, badly. And by the end of the 4th season, we already know practically all prophecies in the show come true with the exception of the ones directly linked with B4 not disappearing. In War Without End, we get more of the background too. In fact, part of the whole point of "redeeming" Londo in the 2nd half of S4 and in S5 is so that he can make the ultimate sacrifice to atone for his actions and we'd actually sympathize with him. Keep in mind, he was instrumental in mass murder and as much as we like him, that has consequences here.
So yeah, its a tragedy, but it *has* to go this way and it is rather core to the story.
[ March 14, 2008, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Mucus ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Agreed.
As much as I enjoy Londo, the fact that he's able to be redeemed at all, even after tremendous suffering, is far better than he deserves.
But then, that's the beauty of mercy -- we don't get what we deserve.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Considering Londo is responsible for the deaths of over 20 billion Narn...and who knows how many other billions the Shadows killed with his help.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Telp: "They're only Narns."
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Two things:
1. G'Kar in the fifth season is talking about the philosophy of which is God, the light on the wall or the lamp, but which episode did that start in? I remember the episode of someone actually shining a lamp on a wall, but I can't remember which season it was in. Who'd he get that from?
2. Am I the only one who keeps wanting to call the Narn homeworld Narnia?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
1. Lennier may (~30% probability?) have shone a lamp at a a wall when talking about the soul as a non-localised phenomenon in Passing Through Gethsemane. I don't remember any other specific references to lamps and religion off-hand, although Delenn often uses metaphors involving the universe as a deity and a candle.
2. Very possibly.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
After delays for school work and class competitions, my and my room mate just finished the series.
I'm sad now that it's done. The same sadness I felt when I finished 'A Fire Upon the Deep' by Vernor Vinge, the Dark Tower Series, and the Harry Potter series. When I spend so much time in these worlds, it's hard to forget about them.
I hated the whole Byron / telepath story. It was just so painful.
But Londo and G'Kar were awesome, as always.
But now I'm off to do the movies!
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: 1. G'Kar in the fifth season is talking about the philosophy of which is God, the light on the wall or the lamp, but which episode did that start in? I remember the episode of someone actually shining a lamp on a wall, but I can't remember which season it was in. Who'd he get that from?
I only vaguely remember what you're talking about, but I seem to remember it sounding like a vague allusion to Plato's allegory of the cave.
Or am I just crazy?
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
It was similar but still quite different, as I remember it.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
The Neil Gaiman episode from season 5 (the Day of the Dead thing) was one of the few I liked from that season. (Others were the Londo's heart attack one, the finale, the episode with a lot of character stuff that included the G'Kar philosophy stuff, and... one other one I can't remember now, but I know there was another one, because when I watched season 5 I was annoyed with how lame most of the season was, so lame that I could only name 5 good episodes.)
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I loved when all the Narns were asking G'Kar questions, and he was giving them these heady philosophical answers and they were like..."so what is is REALLY?" So G'kar sort of rolls his eyes and says "it's like a river," and they all went "ooooohh!"
As for the lamp on the wall, I KNOW that there was an actual scene where someone shined a light on the wall and explained the theory, it might even have been someone explaining it to G'Kar. I'm sure I'll find it when I go back and watch them all again some day.
I don't think I read that Plato, what's is from? The Republic?
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: After delays for school work and class competitions, my and my room mate just finished the series.
I'm sad now that it's done. The same sadness I felt when I finished 'A Fire Upon the Deep' by Vernor Vinge, the Dark Tower Series, and the Harry Potter series. When I spend so much time in these worlds, it's hard to forget about them.
I hated the whole Byron / telepath story. It was just so painful.
But Londo and G'Kar were awesome, as always.
But now I'm off to do the movies!
I picked up "A Fire Upon the Deep" today because of this post. So thanks.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
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