This is topic Lost Season 4 thread - Spoilers Welcome in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Yup, it's that time again. And for those who don't mind slight spoilers, here are some sneak peeks at the first ep: Linky.

"Come with me if you want to live." Heh.

[ February 01, 2008, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: Lisa ]
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
I just finished disk 5 of Season 3, and Netflix says disk 6 is shipping today, so I'm hoping it gets here tomorrow and I can finish up the season before Season 4 launches! I didn't look at the link, but it's the 31st, right?
 
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
 
Yes sir, the 31st.

Probably going to be the best 8 episode television season in history.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I just finished all of season 3 in what was a really unhealthy amount of time. I can't wait for 4!
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
The videos in your linky won't work for me. I wonder why?
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
they all worked fine on my end. Got me pretty excited for the episode. I think it might be a Hurley flashback.
 
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
 
The links worked for me. *jumps up and down* I can't wait.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
I watched season 3 in 2 days. I watched 29 episodes in 37 hours. (and 8 of those episodes were ones I had already watched).
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
I'm super duper excited though.

SPOILERS over season 3.
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- I think Naomi is a bad guy, and the Others are the good guys.
- I think Ben is the man in the coffin.
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SPOILERS OVER

But yeah- I'm so freaking psyched!
 
Posted by Hume (Member # 11457) on :
 
SPOILER ALERT


I'm excited to see in what fashion they bring the hobbit back. In the previews it didn't look like it was a flashback or on the island, so that leaves flash-forward and crazy dream sequence.


END SPOILER
 
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
 
SPOILER ALERT
SPOILER ALERT
SPOILER ALERT
SPOILER ALERT
SPOILER ALERT

LOST stands for L-something O-something String Theory.

The island is probably the closest place inbetween the separate, looping, and slightly different, dimensions.

The Hobbit probably had something to do with the underwater station in another dimension, the creator was a musician.. The code song was 'Good Vibrations'
String theory is based on the idea that there are tiny tiny little strings of existence that make up the universe, but they are vibrating, and each arch of those strings represents a separate dimension. - Good Vibrations, get it?

Locke probably made the station with the chess game.. Hugo probably made the Swan, cause he's the ugly duckling, and it had his numbers button..

Desmond isn't seeing the future, he's seeing the outcomes that have happened in the other dimensions.. no one can see the future, that's silly..

Jack and Kate probably left the island into a dimension that wasn't their original one. In this one, Jacks dad is alive still (I know the other argument.. I think they are trying to full us though) - And Kate's old love interest, connected to the old toy plane, is alive in this dimension as well. That's why she doesn't want to go back.

Ben is in the coffin. no doubt.
I have explanations if you desire..

'Jacob' is either Jack, Locke, or Jack's father..
the reason you can only see him for a glimpse is because Jacob is too connected to the island and is split between all the different dimensions.

The two dead people they found in the cave are probably Jack and Kate.. maybe it's Locke and someone else though (remember how Jack pulled the black and white stones off that one corpse?)

Charlie will be back.
But it will be a different Charlie.

Hugo's dead lady friend will be back too. She obviously has more connections to this island than she should.

Eyepatch will be back.
Black lady will be back.
They have been on the island so long they probably have amazing healing abilities or something..
They seem to have motives they are hiding from Ben.

Claire's baby will probably get separated from her, and he'll start to become the monster we heard about. That or we'll have two very different Claire babies in existence..

Expect things to get weird.


SPOILER ALERT
SPOILER ALERT
SPOILER ALERT
SPOILER ALERT

-Pepek
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
Interesting theories, I hadn't really put that much thought into it, but it does make a lot of sense.

What are everyone's feelings on Charlie? I've never really liked his character, and was rather glad when he left.
 
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
 
I loved Charlie. How can you not like cute lil Charlie?


*grumbles* someone doesn't like my lil hobbit.
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
***SPOILERS***

He always seemed like an irrational jerk to everyone. The peak of my disgust of him was when he assaulted Sun and helped Sawyer steal everything, just because of a dispute between him and Locke (Which was caused by Locke thwarting Charlie's attempts to take Claire's baby and irrational thoughts that Locke was trying to "steal" Claire from him). I had no respect for his character after that.

***SPOILERS***
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
I just finished watching Season 3.

quote:
Originally posted by Pepek:
Expect things to get weird.


Too late. They already have. I have enjoyed Lost up to this point (even during the much-maligned Season 2) but now I'm just annoyed. If I'd watched that season finale when it aired I doubt I'd be tuning in to Season 4 next week; the enthusiasm and curiosity would have died by now. However, I've got a certain momentum going now so I'll see what's up and if they can hook me back in.

But if this series ends in any sort of satisfying way I have to say I'll be surprised. Hope I'm wrong because it's been a great ride up till now.
 
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
quote:
Expect things to get weird.
Things got weird a third of the way in to the first season.

Does J. J. Abrams do anything that's NOT "weird"? That's the only reason I fear Star Trek in his hands; ST is not supposed to be weird! I'm hoping he's enough of a trekkie fanboy to respect that.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Actually, what went on last season has me way more interested in seeing this season than what happened in the season before that had me interested in seeing last season.

If that makes any sense.

We learned a lot last season. I'm really looking forward to this. Right now, I'm in the middle of rewatching last season's finale, so that it's fresh in my mind.
 
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nighthawk:
That's the only reason I fear Star Trek in his hands; ST is not supposed to be weird!

It's not like Star Trek ever featured little furry orbs that are "born pregnant", a bipedal sentient tyrannosaurus, a maternal slug that looks like burnt cheese and eats rocks, several dozen random alien worlds that contain an almost exact duplicate of an earlier Earthling culture, a giant screaming barrel that wants to talk to whales, telepathic outer space jellyfish, countless omnipotent races defeated by tricks a five year old could see through, and green-skinned alien strippers or anything! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Okay. I just rewatched the finale, just so that it'd be fresh in my mind. I don't buy everything in this post, but I can see how they may have gone back to a parallel universe that isn't the same as the one they came from. I mean, Jack seemed pretty clear that his father was alive, and we know that he died in the world Jack came from.

quote:
Originally posted by Pepek:
LOST stands for L-something O-something String Theory.

I don't get this. "Lost" isn't a word used in the show. It's just the name of the show.

quote:
Originally posted by Pepek:
The island is probably the closest place inbetween the separate, looping, and slightly different, dimensions.

The Hobbit probably had something to do with the underwater station in another dimension, the creator was a musician.. The code song was 'Good Vibrations'

Not sure why parallel Charlie would have used that, as opposed to You All, Everybody. But yeah, the way Bonnie said that it was programmed by a musician did seem to be significant. Maybe it was a parallel Charlie.

quote:
Originally posted by Pepek:
String theory is based on the idea that there are tiny tiny little strings of existence that make up the universe, but they are vibrating, and each arch of those strings represents a separate dimension. - Good Vibrations, get it?

Eh. You don't need string theory for that. I mean, DC comics had their multiverse separated by vibrational frequency up until 1986.

quote:
Originally posted by Pepek:
Locke probably made the station with the chess game.. Hugo probably made the Swan, cause he's the ugly duckling, and it had his numbers button..

Desmond isn't seeing the future, he's seeing the outcomes that have happened in the other dimensions.. no one can see the future, that's silly..

That's silly, but seeing other dimensions isn't? Still, you may have a point. The question would be, why is he seeing them?

quote:
Originally posted by Pepek:
Jack and Kate probably left the island into a dimension that wasn't their original one. In this one, Jacks dad is alive still (I know the other argument.. I think they are trying to full us though) - And Kate's old love interest, connected to the old toy plane, is alive in this dimension as well. That's why she doesn't want to go back.

Ben is in the coffin. no doubt.
I have explanations if you desire..

I wouldn't mind hearing your reasoning. The guy in the coffin had a last name like Latham. I checked again tonight. It certainly ended with "atham". Ben's last name was Linus. I wouldn't be surprised, however, to find that the guy in the coffin is Kate's father. The one she killed in her original universe.

quote:
Originally posted by Pepek:
'Jacob' is either Jack, Locke, or Jack's father..

Why Jack's father? Where do you get Jacob from Christian? I suspect Jacob is someone we haven't met yet.

quote:
Originally posted by Pepek:
The two dead people they found in the cave are probably Jack and Kate.. maybe it's Locke and someone else though (remember how Jack pulled the black and white stones off that one corpse?)

What would black and white stones mean? It'd be really interesting if those were Jack and Kate, but why?

quote:
Originally posted by Pepek:
Charlie will be back.
But it will be a different Charlie.

You think it'll be the one who set the code?

quote:
Originally posted by Pepek:
Hugo's dead lady friend will be back too. She obviously has more connections to this island than she should.

Eyepatch will be back.
Black lady will be back.
They have been on the island so long they probably have amazing healing abilities or something..

If by "black lady" you mean Naomi, she wasn't on the island for very long at all. And if Mikhail had amazing healing abilities, why didn't his eye regenerate. I think you're off on this one.

quote:
Originally posted by Pepek:
Expect things to get weird.

Because they've been completely Brady Bunch up until now. Heh.
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
I think by black lady he meant Klugh.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:
'Jacob' is either Jack, Locke, or Jack's father..
the reason you can only see him for a glimpse is because Jacob is too connected to the island and is split between all the different dimensions.

Not only do I disagree, but I don't even think Jacob is an actual person. I wrote up in last season's thread my thoughts on Jacob, i'll try to find them and repost.

quote:
So the island has this weird electro-magnetic thing going right? And the shack that Ben takes Locke to was surrounded by some sort of sand or dirt or whatever that was(edit-apparently it's volcanic ash), which acts as some sort of barrier/protection which the power can't pass through. And Ben tells Locke that Jacob hates technology so there is nothing that produces any power(edit-in or around the shack). I think Ben has somehow captured part of the island, some of its essence. And that's why things start to go crazy when Locke flips on the flashlight. Jacob(or whatever) feeds off the energy from the flashlight and is able to use some of his(the island's power). That's why he says help me(edit-because Ben has captured him). At the beginning of all the shaking, before the image of a person is in the chair you see the chair empty rocking slightly. If you look closely there's black smoke in the chair, rocking with it.
I think the fact that we see black smoke in the chair *before* it manifests itself as a person is important and would indicate that Jacob is not a real person but the island manifested.

I don't know how likely it is that Ben was the man in the coffin. The odds of him leaving the island willingly are 0. But, *if* he was somehow forced to leave the island I can see him killing himself(the newspaper article seemed to indicate it was suicide) and it would fit with what Jack said about him being neither friend nor family and how Kate reacts about going to the funeral...and why no one came.

I loved Charlie and I was really sad to see him die. I actually yelled at the tv screen when he didn't even try to swim out of room after Michael blew open the window.

I'm not sure about all this alternative dimension talk, but time is obviously a very important aspect of the show. The torture room has that backwards dialog that repeats "only fools are enslaved by time and space". The man guarding room 23 was reading A Brief History of Time. Walt spoke backwards to Shannon. There may be another backwards dialog part but i'm not remembering now. Richard hasn't seemed to age at all in like 30 years. And Desmond is now able to see outside of time. This is all off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more too.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Lost tonight!

This thing is pretty funny(and informative!):

Lost Season 1-3 recap in 8:15
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
"Mr. Friendly throws like a girl." <snicker>
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
I have always thought Desmond was hot, but now that I am reading the Outlander series, oh my heavens, not sure if I will sleep tonight.

And I am thinking Sawyer would make a great Jamie Fraser.

If he could have Des's accent...
 
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
No spoilers, but I thought Season 4's opener was a very strong episode. Certainly more satisfying than Season 2 or Season 3's openers.

The only thing I'm bummed about is that this season will be an abbreviated one.
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
Any theories on who the oceanic six are?

We know that it's at least Jake, Kate, and Hurley.
I suspect Micheal is one as well.

I'm also questioning weather anyone else is still alive in the future, since they haven't really confirmed this yet.
 
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
Spoilers!
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...I'm thinking that there are still some survivors on the Island. Otherwise who is Charlie asking Hurley to help?

Edit: Also, the new "Find815.com" viral site doesn't seem to be working for me. [Frown]
 
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
 
SPOILERS!


I'm liking the alternate dimension theory. If the island is a wormhole and they broke through to another world or dimension, that would explain the crashed plane and the claims they were all dead. What if they are rescued by people from a different dimension and when they get back things are different? Jack's dad isn't dead, Kate isn't wanted for murder, etc? And they left people on the island. And the six that got back aren't supposed to be in that world? Great stuff.

I agree, tonight's episode was very good. Answered some stuff, raised more questions.

And I'm thinking it was Michael in the coffin. Not Ben.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
*SPOILERS*
.
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.

quote:
I'm also questioning weather anyone else is still alive in the future, since they haven't really confirmed this yet.
by anyone else you mean excluding the Oceanic 6?

I think it's pretty obvious there are people alive. Charlie seemed to imply it strongly. But last season's finale also hinted at it strongly. Why would Jack be a wreck and trying his hardest to get back to the island if everyone else was dead or off? Obviously some crazy stuff happens between now and them getting off the island, i'm sure some people die, and some people stay(and are probably in bad conditions) and Jack blames himself as well as has savior complex. So it makes sense that he wants to go back to make things right.

I loved the episode. I love the twist that was thrown at us with Hurley saying "i should have stayed with you". We know the people coming aren't with Penny. We know they're not there to rescue the Losties. And we know some real messed up stuff happens. We know that to a certain degree Jack is wrong and Locke was right. So what happened to flip that around?

edit - Lisa, can you put a spoiler warning in the title so we can talk freely?
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MEC:
Any theories on who the oceanic six are?

We know that it's at least Jake, Kate, and Hurley.
I suspect Micheal is one as well.

Except that the Oceanic Six would be the ones the media covered. Michael isn't likely to have been one of those.

Maybe whoever was in that coffin?
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by stihl1:
And I'm thinking it was Michael in the coffin. Not Ben.

I'm not sure. The way the guy at the funeral asked Jack if he was a friend or family implied (didn't prove, but implied) that the dead guy was white.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
edit - Lisa, can you put a spoiler warning in the title so we can talk freely?

Done.
 
Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
 
Oh Lord, I haven't seen any of this, and boy am I lost... (sorry about that).


Seriously though, thanks for the link to the "series 1-3 in 8 minutes and 15 seconds", it has really sparked my interest to see the lot from scratch.

That and Heroes, My Name is Earl, Eureka, Battlestar Galactica and a wealth of other series which I can't face to watch dubbed into spanish on terrestrial TV... See you in 2020 [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
I want someone to make a BSG thing like that 8:15 Lost one.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
Did anyone watch the next show (Eli Stone) which was supposed to have a "commercial" from Oceanic Airlines? Was there anything of interest in that?
 
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Uprooted:
Did anyone watch the next show (Eli Stone) which was supposed to have a "commercial" from Oceanic Airlines? Was there anything of interest in that?

Two new viral websites for (I guess) a new ARG.
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
quote:
I think it's pretty obvious there are people alive. Charlie seemed to imply it strongly. But last season's finale also hinted at it strongly. Why would Jack be a wreck and trying his hardest to get back to the island if everyone else was dead or off? Obviously some crazy stuff happens between now and them getting off the island, i'm sure some people die, and some people stay(and are probably in bad conditions) and Jack blames himself as well as has savior complex. So it makes sense that he wants to go back to make things right.
That's assuming that this "Charlie" isn't just a figment of hurley's mind or a manifestation of the island trying to get Hurley back to the island.
quote:

quote:

Any theories on who the oceanic six are?

We know that it's at least Jake, Kate, and Hurley.
I suspect Micheal is one as well.

Except that the Oceanic Six would be the ones the media covered. Michael isn't likely to have been one of those.
I'm thinking that Michael may not be off the island yet, and if he does reprise his role this season, it'll be either on the island in the present or off in the future.
 
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 
Did they ever explain the deal with the stewardess? How was she both on the plane and an Other?
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
oh, i forgot to say...

I can't believe Jack pulled that trigger!!! What's happened to him?

Also...did I miss a scene where all the Charlie and not Penny's boat stuff was explained to Jack and Kate? It seemed like they showed up, Jack and Locke fought, and then Hurley gave his speech, with no exposition.

quote:
Did they ever explain the deal with the stewardess. How was she both on the plane and an Other?
She's not exactly an Other. She was one of the Losties taken at the beginning of the first season, along with the chldren by The Others. We thought they were dead for a while, but it turns out they've been living with The Others. We don't really know much more than that though.
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
quote:
Also...did I miss a scene where all the Charlie and not Penny's boat stuff was explained to Jack and Kate? It seemed like they showed up, Jack and Locke fought, and then Hurley gave his speech, with no exposition.
I thought the exact same thing.
 
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MEC:
That's assuming that this "Charlie" isn't just a figment of hurley's mind or a manifestation of the island trying to get Hurley back to the island.

Another patient at the mental hospital saw Charlie--"That guy is staring at you."
Not exactly iron-clad proof of Charlie's existence outside of Hurley's mind, but let's not slip into solipsism so soon. My guess would be he's an echo or manifestation of Charlie mediated by the island's spooky powers, but not solely the island.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Or maybe the dude who warned Hurley is ALSO all in Hurley's mind! Maybe the entire show is just a figment of Hurley's imagination! [Smile]
 
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
Didn't they already do that episode? [Wink]
 
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Dude, maybe we're ALL in Hurley's mind!
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Actually, Buffy is imagining us watching Lost while she's in the asylum.
 
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
Man, I hated that ending!

Almost as bad as that comic book series about a boy whose parents were gunned down before his eyes when he was 10, then forever afterwards hallucinated he was a costumed vigilante beating criminals up!
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Maybe the people who rescued them were from a world in a different dimension, and the survivors are unhappy because they are out of synch with the world. Maybe the island is the wormhole, or more like a home base.
 
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
 
I really don't like Jack. I'm rooting against him now.
 
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
 
Spoiler!!!!!!!


I just saw a sneak preview of the season finale. Everyone dies.


Spoiler over!!!
 
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
Did rocks fall on them?
 
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
 
Did anyone else think it was cute/funny when Hurley attempted to out run the cops?

That whole "Jacob's house-face in window" scared the crap out of me. I obviously don't watch to many scary movies. What's up with this jacob???
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
I think it was Locke's face in the window. Locke was hanging out in the cabin, talking to Jacob (or trying to if he still can't see him), and Hurley walked up and saw Jacob, Locke looked out the window, scared Hurley, then went to help him.

Apparently Hurley saw Jack's dad in Jacob's chair.

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Jacob

[ February 02, 2008, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: MEC ]
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Looking at the picture of the eye in the window that's on wikipedia I don't think it could be Locke's eye. The eye is clearly brown and I'm pretty sure Locke has blue/grey eyes.
 
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
 
To me, the eye looks like it could be blue, green, or brown. I think it's too dark to tell.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I assumed it was Locke as well. But if it isn't, could it have been Jack? And the scene happened in some sort of time warp(i.e.- the scene inside the cabin happens in an episode later in the season).
 
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
 
Geez, no discussion on tonight's episode yet? I thought it was decent, even though introducing all the new characters took up a lot of time.

One thing I was wondering about was that I saw Harold Perrineau's name in the credits and I figured he would be in the episode. Then a little after the episode ended I remembered Ben's "man on their boat" comment and was wondering if that might be Michael.
 
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
I enjoyed the episode, but it's another case of an episode bringing up a dozen new questions and only answering one or two. Kind of frustrating, but it keeps us on our toes.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I thought the episode was fantastic. I thought having all the flashbacks grouped into one helped introduce us to the characters without having to stretch out 4 or 5 episodes.

And in true Lost fashion, as MightyCow said, every time they answer a question, they bring up 2 more.

more tomorrow. It's late.
 
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
My guess is that Mister Abaddon is an agent for the real DHARMA Initiative...the group Ben helped the Others murder all those years ago.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
What was Locke's line about Walt? Something like, "yeah, it was him, but . . . bigger." With some funny line from Sawyer after that. LOL, I wonder if that is the only nod we're going to get to the fact that he's grown IRL when only a few weeks have gone by in the LOST world, or are they going to have some bizarre explanation for it?
 
Posted by Mig (Member # 9284) on :
 
Entertainment Weekly has a great weekly recap and analysis of each week's episode. This weeks analysis draws some great parallels between the "rescuers" and CS Lewis's Narnia and Marvel's the Fantastic Four.

Example: The blonde woman rescuer's name: Charlotte Staples Lewis bares a striking simularity to Clive Staples Lewis (C.S. Lewis). And in Prince Caspian, "Pevensie kids return to Narnia via a mysterious island marked by ancient ruins and odd creatures. First thing they do: play in the water."

Check it out: http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20177008,00.html
 
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
 
I caught the CS Lewis thing. I found it fascinating.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by stihl1:
I caught the CS Lewis thing. I found it fascinating.

I don't.
If it's true, I find it lame as can be, using a movie which is about to be released as a reference.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
I don't think it's lame. Using C.S. Lewis isn't out of step of what Lost usually does. Even if the timing is convenient, and I think it is, he is the type of person that Lost regularly references.

Having the backstories for all of the "rescuers" told in one episode was great. I suspect if not for the writers' strike, that would have happened over several episodes.

I think the "rescuers" were involved with DHARMA, before Ben ended it. But then who had the power to put the dummy plane in the ocean?
 
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
Considering that most of the primary character have "great philosopher" last names, Lewis isn't too strange [Smile]

I would swear up and down that I saw Fisher Stevens' name in the credits. But he wasn't any of the "rescuers." Is he slated to make a guest appearance? I just love him!

You know something's going to happen where this little foursome gets torn assunder -- one or two die, and the rest are fractured between wanting to complete their "ben-retrieval" mission, and wanting to exclusively help the Losties.

that Charlotte chick looks cold -- i don't trust her. Daniel is a "head case," hmm? Maybe someone Hurley knows? I'm really interested in the off-the-island supernatural elements in this episode -- polar bear is the desert, Miles' paranormal abilities...too cool!

Even if Ben was privy to all that information because of working for creepy bug-eyed suit-guy, how the heck does he recall that stuff at will? Did I miss the episode where Ben's a super-genius?

[ February 09, 2008, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: Leonide ]
 
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
 
Ben recalling all that information doesn't seem any harder than the pilot immediately knowing Juliette wasn't from the plane.

I don't trust Charlotte at all, but I like Miles and Daniel.
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
Anyone else think that miles and the narrator of the dharma films are related?
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MEC:
Anyone else think that miles and the narrator of the dharma films are related?

Interesting point.

As for Charlotte looking "cold," she has light skin and very light eyes, and she is a tough customer, but I think it is an assumption that she is cold becasue of her "cold" color. If she had warm, braown eyes would you think that?

What I notice about the four is their general passion, actually.

I still think the CS Lewis/Caspian reference is lame, though, but it fits with my "Shambahala" theory.
 
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
I wasn't commenting on Charlotte's physical appearance. I was commenting on how she reacts to situations, especially with how she dealt with the man at the dig and the Losties once she landed.

quote:
Ben recalling all that information doesn't seem any harder than the pilot immediately knowing Juliette wasn't from the plane.

fer shizzle? He doesn't just recognize her, he knows her entire life history, in detail. He has the same sort of info, that he can readily recall at will, on every one of the primary Losties. Regardless of whether or not he Would have that info, to be able to just rattle it off like that? Does he just sit in his bungalow and memorize facts?

[ February 09, 2008, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Leonide ]
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
What's your Shambahala theory?

Isn't Shambahala a Utopian city in the mountains?
 
Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
Leo, I think it's pretty reasonable to see that. Ben is a manipulator at heart, and the only way to be a good manipulator is to have as much information as possible. Anybody who can be in "control" of a situation while tied up, beaten senseless, and under threat of death is pretty good at what they do. It's his job to know everything about everyone at the island. It's not all that different when you think about it from...say....someone who knows the life and history of an entire sports team, or comic series.

But yeah, Ben certainly does need to find more positive things to do with his time than memorize the backstories of fifty-odd people in an attempt to rule Fantasy Island. [Smile]
 
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
Maybe the significance of him knowing that information is greater than just manipulation-power.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
"I wasn't commenting on Charlotte's physical appearance."

I didn't say you were commenting on it, I said it might have an effect on how people perceive her. And I meant to generalize. I think they chose someone who appears "cold." That's all I meant. Sorry.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MEC:
What's your Shambahala theory?

Isn't Shambahala a Utopian city in the mountains?

Yes, it is a mythical city which people go to and never return from. It can be found, but not always. There was more to the theory, but to be honest, I forget! Remember when Hurley drove the VW bus down the hill the first time? It was "The Road to Shambhala" which played. Anyone would think they played the song because it is a classic hippy-60's song, but it means something else.

Also, Shambhala=Shangrila.(sort of)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shambhala

Only people with "certin karma" can get there.
It is a real place...but it isn't.

"The song "Shambala" by Three Dog Night is featured in the TV series Lost, episode 310 (Trisha Tanaka is Dead) as Hurley and Charlie confront their fear of death that is weighing them down. The song is also featured in episode 320 (The Man Behind The Curtain.)"

[ February 10, 2008, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
What are some other "world only accessible through secret door seen only be certain people" stories we could be looking for them to use as references?
Terabithia? Even though it was a pretend secret world?
Avalon?
 
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
 
Maybe they've found Atlantis.

Lost Lands Aplenty
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Great link.
Has anyone noticed any references to Atlantis in the show?
Atlantis is not a place that is secret door-ish, though, usually, just lost. If you can find it, you're in. Avalon(Lyonesse) is.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Originally Posted by Leonides
quote:
You know something's going to happen where this little foursome gets torn assunder -- one or two die, and the rest are fractured between wanting to complete their "ben-retrieval" mission, and wanting to exclusively help the Losties.
This is somehow going to lead the Oceanic Six. One of those four will be forced, by being threated with death at the hand of Jack or Kate, to rescue some of the castaways with the helicopter. They will leave the other three and the rest of the castaways behind.

Could the person in the casket be one of the rescuers? Jack said it was neither a friend or family. If it is one of them, Jack would still feel compelled to visit because of the circumstances involved.
 
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
 
When I was thinking about Atlantis, the only thing I could think of was that statue of the foot with four toes. I don't know why I associated it with Atlantis. I was glad they'd showed it in the flashbacks, I was beginning to think I'd imagined it.

I don't recall any mention of anything that could relate to Atlantis.

I just love the idea of any of those "lost" worlds.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
I do, too.

Unfortunately, because I am the parent of a boy, when I think of Atlantis now, I think of Atlantis Spongepantis.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
One advantage to having no children is that my mind remains mostly unsullied by Sponge Bob imagery. [Wink]
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Sponge Bob is banned in my home. As are Junie B. Jones and Captain Underpants.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Too bad. Spongebob makes me laugh harder than any sitcom, not that that's saying much.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:

I'm not sure about all this alternative dimension talk, but time is obviously a very important aspect of the show. The torture room has that backwards dialog that repeats "only fools are enslaved by time and space". The man guarding room 23 was reading A Brief History of Time. Walt spoke backwards to Shannon. There may be another backwards dialog part but i'm not remembering now. Richard hasn't seemed to age at all in like 30 years. And Desmond is now able to see outside of time. This is all off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more too.

One more thing I thought of to add to my list of time related anomlies in the show.

Mittelos(as in Mittelos Bioscience) is an anagram for "lost time".
 
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
 
My daughter's been singing the "pizza song" since she got off the bus today.

"Krusty Kraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaab Pizza, is
the pizza, yea for you and meeeeeeeeeeeeeee!"


*help me*
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Did anyone else notice that the grandson on the picture in the woman's home where Miles goes in the flashback is Eko (or is at least the spitting image of Eko as a young boy).

They made a point of focusing on the picture twice so I doubt its a coincidence.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Rabbit, I knew I was supposed to notice something about the picture. Now I want to go back.

Also, is Miles the same character who is on the show about the couple with 8 kids, or do they just look similar?
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Nope, coincidence.
However, "Miles" played the grumpy guy who was in the psych ward with Junior Soprano.
 
Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
 
I didn't think that the eye/face in the window was Locke because it looked like it had hair.

I didn't get the whole Penny finding the polar bear skeleton in the desert thing. Is that part of the other dimension theory?
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
I thought Charlotte found the polar bear in the desert...
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
MEC has got it right.

Rabbit I noticed that about the picture and then promptly forgot about it right after. Good call. So what does it all mean?
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Time travel.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
See, here's my problem with time travel theories or theories about the island existing outside of time or in an alternate dimension. If this is true than why is everyone that's on the island from the present day? Why aren't there people from colonial times and from ancient times? There would conceivably be people from all sorts of time periods co-existing in this island outside of time.
 
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
 
What do you think is going on with the hobbit? The guy in the scene where Hurley's chilling outside, mentioned to him that someone was staring at him...so this guy saw Charlie? He's there, and then he's not. [Confused]
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Sponge Bob is banned in my home. As are Junie B. Jones and Captain Underpants.

I can understand SpongeBob and Captain Underpants, but Junie B. Jones is comedic gold.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
She's a bad role model.
 
Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
 
quote:
I thought Charlotte found the polar bear in the desert...
That makes slightly(?) more sense. Charlotte is the new helicopter person right? After watching each show I feel more confused all the time. I didn't get what that whole desert scene had to do with anything. For some reason, this bothered me more than the fact that Hurley's fellow psych patient saw Charlie.

I still really enjoy the show, I just can't want to think about it too deeply because there seems to be no rhyme or reason. I hope that a story arc will unfold soon, I need some sense and reason!
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sweetbaboo:
For some reason, this bothered me more than the fact that Hurley's fellow psych patient saw Charlie.

What makes you think that anyone saw Charlie other than Hurley? What makes you think that the "fellow psych patient" wasn't imaginary as well?

I think the whole TimeLoop theory is too complicated and illogical to be the real solution to what's happening on Lost, but I won't be surprised if some of it turns out to be right.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
OK, this is a teacher analogy, but bear with me.
I think that the writers are making this up as they go, trying to match things from the past episodes, but it is all ne, like a teacher who is teaching a new curriculum that year.

They look for cool things, and use them, but sometimes, the lessons don;t fit.

I think that if the writers themselves could go back in time, they would have had all the theories in place, and been able to build on them.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Charlie really slapped Hurley. If Charlie was a figment of Hurley's imagination, then Hurley would have felt it anyway. If Charlie was really there, then the other psych patient would have seen Charlie as well, and probably would not have recognized him from Drive Shaft, being a psychiatric patient and all. Others in the vicinity (and there appeared to be few people) probably would not recognize him either for the same reason. How Charlie got there? [Dont Know]

I propose that Aaron may be the fourth of the Oceanic Six to be revealed. Claire may be forced to make a choice: does she keep Aaron to take care of him, as maternal instinct would require, or does she send him with the other five? If he has "special abilities" as some propose, but I don't believe, then Claire would have good reason to send him off the island away from the danger, as she sees it anyway.

I am aware that Claire was warned that she should be the only person taking care of him, but she received that information from a fake psychic. Aaron seemed to bond well others, especially Charlie, but he's dead now. Kind of.

Of course, who takes care of Aaron when he gets to civilization? Kate, possibly. It's remote, I know. She doesn't seem to be very good mother material, but it may be the simplest explanation (in Lost terms, because nothing is simple on Lost [Wink] ) for the person she was talking about in "Through the Looking Glass" when she said "He'll be wondering where I am."

And after looking through Lostpedia to make sure I have the quote right, I see that this is a already a theory.
 
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
 
The psych patient is crazy. He could have seen George Washington staring at Hurley. He tells Hurley a guy is staring at him, and suddenly crazy Hurley thinks Charlie is there.
 
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
 
What? Sayid!
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Could "The Economist" be Penny's dad?
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
I could watch a show about Sayid off the island. Just Sayid. Damn, but he's amazing.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
I know what you mean, Lisa. In a lot of ways one of the most fascinating characters on the show. And did I mention beautiful?
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
And they also revealed Ben, to which one wonders if Ben still goes to and fro the island.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Ahhh Sayid, Why don't we have any drooling emoticons.

[Evil]
 
Posted by JoeH (Member # 5958) on :
 
Can't say I am as infatuated with Sayid as some of you, but damn that reveal was CRAZY.
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
My hubby pegged the reveal just before.

Ben is the root of everyone's problems. If he hadn't been around from the start it would have been "Hey, plane crash huh? We have a sub. Let's get you all back home. [THE END]"
 
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
 
I'm curious as to what incident Ben referred to when he mentioned what happened the last time Sayid followed his heart and not his gun.
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
quote:
Ben is the root of everyone's problems. If he hadn't been around from the start it would have been "Hey, plane crash huh? We have a sub. Let's get you all back home. [THE END]"
And I'm guessing that would be the Dharma Initiative saying that?

quote:
My hubby pegged the reveal just before.
The Ben reveal or the Sayid reveal?

I thought the Ben reveal would be the most obvious conclusion without introducing any new characters/questions.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
I was disappointed with the Ben "reveal."

So, who do you think "the economist" is? I think Penny's dad, as I said above. Or rather, as I asked above.
 
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
 
Sweet episode. The biggest reveal is the time discrepancy in the arrival of the rocket! This is the first hint that time doesn't flow the same on the island--but that communications can still occur between the two time periods. WEIRD.

If time moves slower on the island, than maybe we'll be seeing a grown Walt back in the show?
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
I calculated a discrepancy of 31 minutes 20 seconds.

I wonder when the discrepancy started -- when the rocket was launched or when the helicopter entered the island.
 
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
I speculate that the time discrepancy is linked in some way to the Hatch and the pressing of the button - a mystery that hasn't been mentioned in a while.
 
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
This was the best episode in a while.
There was Hurley's betrayal: Dude, what happened? You used to be cool.

The Sayid/Ben reveal. Never trust a torturer.

And the jet-lagged rocket. That was spookier than Jacob, to me. How could communications be in real-time while trajectories (or their relative POVs) get a 1/2 hour delay?? Very weird.
 
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
Hmmm, according to Lostpedia, the scene with Sayid and Ben (and ancillary scenes) is a flash-forward, after rescue, not a flash-back. Not sure what they base that on.

edit: Sayid says he's one of the Oceanic 6. I missed that part.
2nd edit: I missed the 1st 15 minutes. Now I have to bittorrent it to keep up. [Frown]

[ February 16, 2008, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I think even if he hadn't said he was one of the Oceanic 6, it should've been obvious. It really wouldn't have made sense as a flashback with Sayid's history. He also talks about not working because he's living off a large settlement. Him and the woman also talk about the crash towards the end of the episode.

The jet lagged rocket was awesome.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
I could watch a show starring just Sayid too. He is one of the best characters. Naveen Andrews really does a great job of playing the tragic man.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Morbo:
And the jet-lagged rocket. That was spookier than Jacob, to me. How could communications be in real-time while trajectories (or their relative POVs) get a 1/2 hour delay?? Very weird.

That's why they have to adjust the phones just right. They talk through time. The TimeLoop thing is getting a little more feasible, though I still think it's a bit whacked out.

Incidentally, they were originally going to have it be off by 31 seconds, rather than 31 minutes.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
I don't like time travel. There are way too many physical requirements for it to be used. Magic beans are great when it comes to having intelligent black clouds and exceptional electromagnetic strength because there can still be reasonable explanations for either one within the context of the story. If the island ends up being in a vile vortex I will be disappointed because that's a cop out. Where's the imagination in that old chestnut?

I doubt the show would sink that low because even in it's worst times, Lost has had some wierd things that were still original.

After my prediction about which of the Oceanic Six would be revealed next blew up in my face, I am reluctant to even speculate. But I can still complain. [Smile]
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
I say the other two members of the Oceanic 6 are Sun and Jin.
 
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
 
I was thinking maybe Claire and Sawyer. Sawyer simply because he doesn't want to leave and perhaps was somehow forced to.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Also, I want a Sawyer show. He is my favorite. Well, he and Desmond are my favorites.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
I'm guessing that the other 2 of the 6 and Sawyer and Locke.

I think Locke was the guy in the coffin.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
I don't. I think they would have been sadder if it was Locke.
And I wonder if whoever it was was really even dead. Can;t trust anything anymore on that blasted show, even a death.
 
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Ahhh Sayid, Why don't we have any drooling emoticons.

[Evil]

I can't find anything attractive in Naveen Andrews. I saw him in a crazy movie, Kama Sutra:A Tale of Love. He was a big buffoon in that movie.

What's up with Jacob's cabin being gone?

Darn Hurley, I thought he was acting a little goofy, but then again, when does he not?
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Here's the problem. I can tell you who the featured characters are in the next five episodes. If you're willing to be spoiled on that point, look here, at the end of the recap. Don't scroll all the way down to the comments section, because the people who comment on AICN are, for the most part, disgusting and foul, and there's at the very least going to be a major language advisory for that.

The problem is, only one of the people in question is someone we already know is one of the Oceanic Six. Of the others, only two of them can be, at the very most, right? And you can narrow it down more by excluding the ones who weren't on the plane. But that still doesn't tell you who the remaining two members are. Not for sure.
 
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
 
Without looking at Lisa's spoilers, here are a few of my thoughts ...

1. The fact that Kate isn't in jail in the last season finale might indicate that she is NOT one of the Oceanic Six. The Oceanic Six are famous. Hard to imagine her beating a murder rap if she is known to have survived.

2. Could the time discrepancy on the island somehow be responsible for Charlotte discovering a Dharma symbol at what seemed to be an archaeological dig?
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
I can tell you who the featured characters are in the next five episodes. If you're willing to be spoiled on that point, look here, at the end of the recap.
Given the history of this show, there is no reason to believe that they will reveal the identity of the other 2 (or three) of the Oceanic 6 in the next 5 episodes or even this season. In fact, it seems more likely that they won't reveal anything else of significance for the rest of season.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
On the other hand, the last season finale seems to imply that Jack's father is alive. So other things might be different as well, including Kate not being a fugitive.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
I can tell you who the featured characters are in the next five episodes. If you're willing to be spoiled on that point, look here, at the end of the recap.
Given the history of this show, there is no reason to believe that they will reveal the identity of the other 2 (or three) of the Oceanic 6 in the next 5 episodes or even this season. In fact, it seems more likely that they won't reveal anything else of significance for the rest of season.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the history of this show". For one thing, they have a deadline now, and are moving a lot faster towards reveals. For another thing, if all of the next five episodes are flashforwards, then it pretty much does mean that they'll be revealing the Oceanic Six in them.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
The show has a history of revealing bits and pieces that raise as many questions as they answer. So far this year they are sticking to that format. I suspect that there will be more reveals this season for the reasons you state, in fact there already have been more reveals. That doesn't mean they will reveal the answer to the biggest question they've posed -- who are the Oceanic 6. In fact so far each of this seasons reveals has raised more questions than they have answered.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
The teaser at the end of last week's episode mentioned the reveal another member of the Oceanic Six, I think.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Since I've been watching on line, I didn't see the teaser.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
The teaser did, but it's one we already know, I think. I mean, no one has ever stated that Jack and Kate are members of the Oceanic Six. We know they got off the island, and Jack is referred to as a "hero", so it stands to reason, but as a matter of cold hard fact, only two people have been labeled that way so far. Sayid and Hurley.
 
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
 
Jack also mentions the Golden Pass that they were given when he talked to Kate at the end of S3. I can't remember if he said anything to Hurley that may have indicated he's one of the Oceanic Six.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
You're right, Lisa. I think I saw Kate in that teaser.
 
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
 
I like the way Daniel is described in the link that Lisa posted above.
quote:
Daniel (the twitchy fellow we met at the end of last episode)
He was twitchy, was he not?
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I just realized where I know the actor that plays Daniel from! He was Upham(i had to look up the spelling on this one) in Saving Private Ryan.
 
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
 
He was also in Rescue Dawn.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Puppy:
Without looking at Lisa's spoilers, here are a few of my thoughts ...

1. The fact that Kate isn't in jail in the last season finale might indicate that she is NOT one of the Oceanic Six. The Oceanic Six are famous. Hard to imagine her beating a murder rap if she is known to have survived.

I can think of at least 2 ways that Kate may have beaten the murder rap.

1) She exchanges identities with someone who died in the crash or on the island. This could even be part of what Jack doesn't want Hurly to "tell".

or the more straight forward route.

2) The key witness in the case (Kate's mother) and the FBI agent who headed up the hunt for her are both dead. Without a witness they may simply not have enough evidence to build a case against her. With the key investigator also gone its entirely possible that they might just drop the case.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Or she was rescued using a stolen identity, only to have her real identity discovered later. This might be part of the subject of the next episode. The teaser hints at something like that. But teasers aren't reliable.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
Didn't see that one coming.
 
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
So what happened to...oh, man. And she's one of my favorite characters. [Frown]
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
I saw that coming as soon as her "son" was mentioned.

Did it seem like Aaron is aging faster to anyone else?
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
same here MEC, and i was positive during the scene with Claire and Kate and Aaron.

i enjoyed tonight's episode, but not a lot happened at all. we spent an hour and all we got was the Aaron thing, a semi-cool conversation between Ben and the Asian dude, and a bit more about the story that they tell the rest of the world. I was hoping for a bit more. The preview for next week looks pretty awesome.

Also, in regards to the story, I'm wondering why it involves 8 people originally surviving but two of them dying. How purposeful is that? In that is that the story to explain away two extra bodies?

And why was Kate designated the hero? Was it in preparation for what would be her coming back to face a murder rap and trying to use that to make her a hero, or is there another reason?
 
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
Strider: I had the same thought about the story of 8 survivors. It makes me think we'll see two dead people pretty soon.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MEC:
I saw that coming as soon as her "son" was mentioned.

Did it seem like Aaron is aging faster to anyone else?

We don't know how long they've been back.

When they said she had a son, we were torn between it being Sawyer's (explaining why Jack doesn't want to see him, which is hard to understand now) and the scumbag father she killed (which would add a reason to why she killed him). Aaron was a shock.
 
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 
How would they explain the fact that Aaron was Kate's child? Clair was almost full term when they crashed on the island and I would expect that any reports that the marshal had filed before he took Kate out of Australia would note if she had been pregnant. The time anomaly again?
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Oh my.
I completely missed the Aaron connection! Can someone explain?
I think Claire probably begged to have them take Aaron, if it was Aaron.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
oh wait, what was the thing with Daniel and the cards? Is he losing his memory? Why did he cry when he saw the news report about flight 815? and how come when he parachuted to the ground and Jack asked him who he was, it almost looks like it takes a him second to remember. And why is he so twitchy!
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Two more things. This episode had references to Xanadu and the Phillip K. Dick book Valis. Both interesting references given their themes and content.
 
Posted by Lime (Member # 1707) on :
 
As soon as the Aaron reveal happened, Julie immediately thrust a finger at me and said, "Don't let anyone else raise your child!"

Which is a quote from the first season, when Claire went to that psychic guy. It was a very creepy moment.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
And Claire was on her way to LA to give the baby up to a family there...which is where Aaron ends up anyway!
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Valis, I get. Why is Xanadu relevant?
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Isn;t Xanadu like Shambhala? (Shangrila)
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Duh.
Bells ring so few and far between these days...

http://etext.virginia.edu/stc/Coleridge/poems/Kubla_Khan.html
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
That with music loud and long,
(excerpt):

I would build that dome in air,
That sunny dome ! those caves of ice !
And all who heard should see them there,
And all should cry, Beware ! Beware !
His flashing eyes, his floating hair !
Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honey-dew hath fed,
And drunk the milk of Paradise.
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Hurley never really struck me as a Xanadude.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
My jaw dropped when my prediction about Kate's caring for Aaron turned out to be right. Now I'm worried that Claire may end up dying, rather than telling Kate to get him off the island.

There were several small reveals that add up to be big. Aaron certainly, but what about Daniel? I wonder if his memory problems are related to sabotage. Did he work for Dharma, and after the purge, was there a failed attempt on his life to keep his knowledge secret? I think there is a possibility that he worked for Dharma because he has an interest in strange events. For example, he wasn't surprised about the time difference, just that the difference he expected was not what he got.

I'm not surprised that Ben went on and off the island regularly. He is a liar and manipulator, and can make the rest of his people think he cares about them. I'm surprised he has access to so much money. Is he on the pay of a Dharma related entity, and only uses loyalty to the island in order to keep the deception going?

Locke is evil.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
I don't think Locke is at all evil.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
I mean, a bit crazy, and a tad bit maniacal, but not evil. He is like a crazed prophet.
 
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
My wife suggested that maybe Daniel came to the island with some memory problems, and the island was healing him.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
yeah, i buy that MightyCow. I think Reader might be on to something too with what he said. Daniel has some sort of past connection to the Island(hence is crying when he sees the news report...hmmm or maybe his connection is with someone on the plane and not the island itself?), but for whatever reason his memory is shot. And the Island is now slowly healing him. So maybe we get a huge reveal from him later on as he remembers his past.

Interesting that they send a physicist with memory problems on a mission like this.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Who says he was trying to remember the cards? Did we see him look at the cards? I thought it was a clairvoyance test.
 
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
 
Every commercial break has me very excited.

I think the helicopter is still on it's way to the boat. TIME WARP.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Good point, Lisa.
Daniel could have had some sort of brain injury. Maybe he got to the point where the doctors say that's it, you have healed as much as you are going to heal.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Elizabeth, but I think Lisa's saying that he doesn't have a memory problem at all, and what we were seeing as a memory test was really a clairvoyance test.

I'd be inclined to agree with her if it wasn't for his look of confusion when he landed on the island and his unexplained crying when he saw the news report.

Though I won't rule out the possibility.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
What's really going to happen this season: Link.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Strider, I was not really mentioning memory, because Lisa had made the point. There are other things that brain injuries can cause, though, and shakiness is one of them. Maybe his brain was used as an experiment because of his abilities, and was damaged.
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
I suspect that each of the "rescuers" have ties to certain fields of interest of the Dharma Initiative. Daniel "Faraday" most likely with electrostatics.

I suspect that Claire is dead and that Jack now knows that she was his step-sister, that being the reason he doesn't want to see Aaron.
 
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
 
The other reason he may not want to see her is perhaps because of what ended up happening to her (whatever that may be). The only reason I can think of that Kate ends up with Aaron is that Claire dies and she promises to take care of him.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
There are theories on Lostpedia that Kates Aaron isn't Claire's Aaron, but I don't believe it. Because Kate was a fugitive wanted for murder, among many other charges, there is no way she would be allowed to retain custody of Aaron.

Claire had relatives in Australia that would have been considered for custody, unless the fact that Aaron was up for adoption complicates this.

The story that the Oceanic Six could tell the world is that Claire was one of the eight survivors, but died after giving birth. Aaron would be one of the six remaining survivors. Even though he wasn't a passenger because he didn't have a seat, he was still on the plane and did indeed survive the crash.

Kate would have been the person taking care of Aaron, as she did for the rest, and she would be his mother as far as he knows. How does she manage to keep him given her circumstances?
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Maybe Kate killed Claire?
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Where are The Others????
 
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
Oh, they headed off to the temple sometime towards the end of last season.
 
Posted by landybraine (Member # 10807) on :
 
So they finally gave us something!!! The island must be some kind of crux of time. I don't know, but I'm just so freakin' happy that we have an answer! This explains where the Black Rock came from, the four toed statue, and possibly the monster and the black cloud. They are all from different "times".

From this point, they can just fill in the pieces and concentrate on the drama. We finally have OUR constant!

(Excuse me for my uber-geekiness, but for the first time in three seasons, I've not wanted to throw something through the t.v. after watching an episode! I'm one of those that was hoping for it to make sense, but really wasn't sure it would.)

edited to add:

Plus, my friend Matt just reminded me that when Sayid and Desmond left the island, it was October...but when they landed on the boat, it was Christmas eve. Crazy.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Aye.
Plus, it was a Desmond episode!
And Penny loves him, and he knows it!
 
Posted by landybraine (Member # 10807) on :
 
Yay for Penny and Desmond love! I was scared for a second there...I thought they might kill Desmond while he was ending his convo with Penny, having served his purpose of letting us know what the heck was going on. I am sooo glad they weren't that evil!
 
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
 
This may be obvious, but I think what happened with Faraday is that he did the experiment on himself and put himself into the future. That may be why he came to the island in the first place.
 
Posted by landybraine (Member # 10807) on :
 
I don't know about that. I think Faraday's "thing" is that he has an amazing, if not perfect memory...and that the island has confused him and slowed or damaged his ability. Remember when Desmond suggested that he forgot something and Daniel looked at him like he was stupid and said "I highly doubt that."
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I think more likely, Faraday fried his brain with repeated exposure to radiation. He was recruited to come to the island or work with whoever he's working for because of his particular skills. I think he knew he was coming to the island because Desmond told him about the island. That's why he cries when he sees the news report.

Desmond's travels are starting to remind me of The Time Traveler's Wife.

I loved tonight's episode. I think it bolstered the island outside of time theory, but laid to rest the alternate dimensions theory. Faraday's line to 1996 Desmond about not being able to change events or time while not explicitly countering the alternate dimensions theory, would seem to go against it, and indicate the show isn't going in that direction.

I'm having a hard time remembering what Desmond has said about his military time, and what happened to him in between leaving Penny and the boat race. Did he ever indicate having memory problems or mental problems during that period in his life? i.e- if the concept of time and time travel on the show is a fixed path where events cannot be altered or changed, they just happen, then what did real 1996 Desmond originally experience during this time period?
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
landybraine, i like your comment about the show giving us a constant. Not sure if the producers meant it in that way, but i think it's a cool way to look at it none the less.

I disagree with you about Faraday's "thing". i think his memory problems started way before the island. hence his unexplained crying when he sees the 815 news report. and why it seems like he has a caretaker taking care of him. i agree with what you say about his look and line to Desmond, but Desmond's line back was just as important, "what's protecting your head?"
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
oh shoot...prison right? he was in prison for something. but i don't remember what...off to lostpedia.
 
Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
I sort of thought that Faraday was going through the time travel himself. He wrote himself a note at some point in time that Desmond was his constant. So, when he's crying when he sees the 815 footage, I think that he was experiencing one of the time travels. Perhaps he had been having "dreams" of the island, like Desmond's first dream, and then having the island confirmed to him made him realize that he had been time traveling. Or not. But I think at some point, he has to travel as he notes Desmond is his constant.
 
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
 
Well, I'm glad someone agrees with me!
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I think the reason he notes Desmond as his constant is because he knows for a fact that desmond is both in his past and his future.

The reason he thinks it worthy of noting, is because now that he's met Desmond in his past, he's made aware that some time in his future he'll possibly be going to a place that caused these strange effects in Desmond. To prepare himself for what *might* happen to him, he marks this down, maybe his memory is already starting to go at this point hence the need for documentation.

This is just my interpretation. Obviously only time will tell(pun intended). His memory blanks may be time travel related, i'm just not willing to support that theory yet.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:
Plus, my friend Matt just reminded me that when Sayid and Desmond left the island, it was October...but when they landed on the boat, it was Christmas eve. Crazy.
how could it have been october? didn't the flight crash in september? and they've been there for a few months now. i'm pretty sure it's just the day or two difference from island to boat.
 
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
 
Landybraine,

I don't think that is quite right. It is Desmond and Eloise's consciousness that is unhinged in time, not their physical selves. They are only swapping back and forth between points in their own timeline. That doesn't explain the origins of the smoke, statue, or black rock.

I find it far more likely that the Black Rock washed up during a storm, and that the point of the scene last night was to provide us with a way for the Whidmores to know about the Island, the diary. Things are not traveling through time to the Island.

I think Faraday fried his brain and memory. He isn't traveling through time yet, or else he would display the symptoms of going blank for longer and more frequent periods of time. I think he wrote down that Desmond would be his constant in case he experiences difficulty when he leaves the island.

There has to be a way to come and go without experiencing these side effects, or else the others would diminish their ranks over time from people like Ben, Tom, guy that Charlie killed, and guy that never ages leaving and returning.

(sorry for the lack of names, just got up.)

--ApostleRadio
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Just before the helicopter takes off, Jack comments to the pilot that its been 100 days since he's seen a game. They crashed on the island on Sept. 22 2004. There are 94 days between Sept. 22 and Dec. 24. That gives you a time difference of 6 days.

Unless of course the last game Jack watched was before he left for Australia which in the real world would be pretty likely since American baseball isn't a popular sport down under. Still I had the sense that Jack was counted the days he'd been on the island not the days since he's watched baseball.
 
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
My speculation is that in one of the coming few episodes Daniel will explain to us what "pushing the button" was all about, and that it will have something to do with keeping the island's time in sync with the outside world.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
I like that theory, Tres.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
"Desmond's travels are starting to remind me of The Time Traveler's Wife."

I have thought that for a while. In fact, I think they stole it from TTTW.
 
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Elizabeth:
"Desmond's travels are starting to remind me of The Time Traveler's Wife."

I have thought that for a while. In fact, I think they stole it from TTTW.

The mention in the episode to being "unstuck in time" along with the basic concept of visiting different time periods within one's own life is a blatant reference to Kurt Vonnegut's well-known novel Slaughterhouse-Five, originally published in 1969.

Just sayin'. [Smile]
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
So, what I hear you saying is that TTTW stole from Kurt?
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
well, I think the fact he's not only jumping around in time but also jumping around to various points in his relationship to penelope and affecting the course of his relationship with her through those jumps, is what's reminding me specifically of TTTW.

though it's obvious that there are Slaughterhouse references in there as well(when he gets kidnapped by aliens we'll know for sure).

There's room for both references! Lost is expansive.
 
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
I'm saying that the Lost episode was making an obvious reference to Vonnegut's novel. [Smile]
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
So here's a fun little theory I've been thinking about, not specifically related to any of the current episodes, but lent credence by the information revealed recently.

Remember the two skeletons Jack found in the cave during season 1? Well, here's some stuff that the producers have said about that:

*Warning, mild spoilers about the importance of the skeletons


quote:
In an EW.com article, Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse answered the fan question, "What is the meaning or significance of the two skeletons that Jack and Kate found in the cave of season 1?"
CUSE: The answer to that question goes to the nature of the timeline of the Island. We don't want to say too much about it, but there are a couple Easter eggs embedded in "Not in Portland", one of which is an anagram that actually sheds some light on the skeletons and hints at a larger mythological mystery that will start to unfold later in the season.
LINDELOF: There were certain things we knew from the very beginning. Independent of ever knowing when the end was going to be, we knew what it was going to be, and we wanted to start setting it up as early as season 1, or else people would think that we were making it up as we were going along. So the skeletons are the living—or, I guess, slowly decomposing—proof of that. When all is said and done, people are going to point to the skeletons and say, "That is proof that from the very beginning, they always knew that they were going to do this."

So the easter egg they're talking about is the anagram of Mittelos, which is "lost time".

So here's my theory. The skeletons are actually characters we already know, my current hypothesis is Jack and Kate. That in their attempt to get back to the island they make it back, but waaaaaay too early and die on the island before any of the events we're familiar with ever happen. I'm not 100% gung ho about it happening that way, but I am intrigued by the idea that the skeletons are characters we're familiar with who go through a time warp of some sort.
 
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
 
Has anyone else mentioned the "friend on board" comment which was made in relation to someone opening the door to the sickbay, thus allowing Desmond, Sayid and the communications officer to escape? I think this reinforces my guess made a couple weeks back that Michael is on board the boat, and is also Ben's contact.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Speaking of things borrowed from other time travel stories, in Outlander, a person from the past sometimes dreams of people in the future, and appears as a ghost to people in the future. But, they are not dead, they are alive, just coming to visit from the past. Somehow.

Maybe Charlie and Michael are doing that.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fitz:
Has anyone else mentioned the "friend on board" comment which was made in relation to someone opening the door to the sickbay, thus allowing Desmond, Sayid and the communications officer to escape? I think this reinforces my guess made a couple weeks back that Michael is on board the boat, and is also Ben's contact.

I kind of assumed that the door was either opened by Frank or Ben's man on the boat. But why would Ben's man on the boat be helping the Losties escape and even worse, make a phone call to someone who is trying to find the island. I guess it could make a little more sense if Michael was Ben's man on the boat, but why the heck would Michael be helping Ben out. Seemed their relationship ended when Michael did what Ben asked, and Ben let him and Walt go.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Some stuff about this last episode and a throw away theory about the nature of flashbacks and the character connections.

Okay, so up until last night I had sort of been thinking about this past episode in the old standard events happening on the island with a flashback formula. And that the storm had caused Desmond to forget everything that's happened to him and travel back to his past. Hence my question earlier in this thread about what 1996 Desmond experienced. But talking with a friend last night he made the point that he thought it was interesting that this episode broke the flashback formula by sending Desmond's 1996 consciousness into the future and that it wasn't really a flashback OR a flashforward. And I realized he was right. I was looking at it all the wrong way because my head was stuck in the flashback formula. What happened was that 1996 Desmond's consciousness became unstuck in time and traveled to the future. Which is why Desmond doesn't know where he is or who anyone is. The consciousness that is in 2004 never experienced the last 8 years.

So given that, I have some questions. One of the reasons that i looked at it the other way around is because the event that causes it happens in desmond's future. For instance, with the experiment on the rat, Faraday exposes her to the radiation, sends her consciousness into the future, and then it comes back. But desmond gets exposed in 2004, and yet this somehow causes his 1996 consciousness to travel to the future. that doesn't make sense to me.

Also, if this is a Time Traveler's Wife type timeline and everything happens just once, it's all fate and there's no changing it, then the Desmond we're familiar with would have always known about going to the island right? His 1996 self experienced traveling to the future, learning he had been living on an island, and getting Penny's number so later when he's on that island he can call her. But the Desmond we know doesn't know all that. So what's going on? Can the timeline be changed? Is Faraday wrong? And yet, one of the reasons I assume Penny looked for Desmond so hard is because she *knows* that he's there and he's alive. So she always knew right? That event with Desmond getting her number *always* happened...

So all this thought about Desmond and time travel and flashbacks made me think about the nature of flashbacks on the show. We'd had conversations about this before, I think in last years thread when discussing the nomenclature of calling the season finale a "flashforward" or saying that future off island events were really "the present" and the island scenes was the "flashback"(in the end I had said it doesn't make any difference, it's all just events in time, and that our timeline had just widened). But I think a relatively important distinction to make when talking about the flashbacks is whether you think that flashbacks are just the shows' way of giving us backstory about these characters when it's appropriate to understanding their characters better, etc...or whether that characters is actually remembering those events in their lives during those episodes. I've gone back and forth about that myself.

Desmond's experiences would tend to bolster the latter interpretation. And the interaction of the black smoke/island with the characters would as well; jack seeing his dad, kate seeing the horse, hurley seeing his imaginary friend, Echo seeing his brother, etc...

So here's the thought that came to me. What if the reason all the characters have these really unlikely connections in their past, is because the Island has actually created all these connections. Which is not to say the past events didn't happen, but in a weird twist on cause and effect and the nature of time and whether it can be changed, these people all crash here and the island created these intertwining pasts for whatever reason.

I don't know that i buy that at all, but I thought it was worth sharing. It would certainly go a long way towards explaining what is a series of infinitely unlikely events and connections.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Well, in the Time Traveler's Wife, he can change the future somewhat, or at least use the past, because they play the stock market with info he knows from his various travels.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
but that's not *changing* the future. it's just using information from the future.

to change the future the events would have to transpire like this:

at point A he doesn't know about which stocks will rise. at point B he still doesn't know and doesn't invest. at point C in which he is not rich he finds out which stocks do well. travels back to before point B and informs himself of which stocks to invest in. invests in those at point B and by point C is now rich. this is like the back to the future theory of time travel in which there are now two different time lines.

the way the time traveler's wife explains it is the events ALWAYS transpired like this:

at point A doesn't know which stocks to invest in. before point B is told by his future self which stocks to invest in. invests in them at point B. at point C is rich and goes back to tell himself which stocks to invest in(this isn't how it happens in the book, just using it as an easy example).

the whole point of the time traveler's wife is that events in time can NEVER be changed. they happen once, in one way and that is all. the same way they do in your life. the addition of time travel does not change the nature of cause and effect or the timeline in any way. Kind of like when a future version of his teenage self tells an earlier version to ask out a girl that he's terrified of talking to. and says "trust me". well, he would never have asked her out in the first place if he had never told himself to. but he only tells himself to, because he told himself to, and it ends up working.

now again...this is just one theory of how time travel works, and isn't necessarily how Lost is doing it, though Faraday's comments would lead me to believe that HE at least believes that time works that way, whether he's right or not in the mythology of Lost is still up for debate.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
This is why I said "or at least uses the past."\

But really, it does affect the future, doesn't it, because if he did not know about the stocks in the past, he would not have acted on the knowledge in the present, and his future finances would be dim?

Asking, not being argumentative, because the whole thing makes me head spin.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
it comes down to the difference between "affect" and "change". it obviously affects the future(maybe even effects the future! [Smile] ), but that doesn't mean the same thing as change the future. it's a question of free will/fate/determinism.

lets say you looked at your life, from birth to death, on a timeline that went from A to Z, after the fact. the sum of your life is contained within that time line. Something you do at point B affects the outcome of your life at point F, but not visa versa because of the direction time flows. you can't change the past. once something is done, it's done. now, assume you can time travel and tell yourself things at different points in your life. You're life still goes on a timeline from A to Z, but now things you do at B can affect yourself at F and things you do at M can affect yourself at C and so on. BUT that doesn't mean you can *change* something that's already happened. if your whole life, including time travel is laid out on this timeline, then it contains everything that happened. all the jumping around in time, all the advice from a future self to do or not do anything. and given that timeline as one complete entity, there's nothing you can do to change anything. it all happened that way.

you can't do something, then go back and warn yourself not to do it, because then you never would've done it and wouldn't have to go back to warn yourself not to do it. that would create alternate realities or timelines or whatever, and the theory espoused in TTTW was that those don't exist, things happen only once and only in one way.

does that make any more sense? I may not be explaining it very well.

edit-the point of using the timeline analogy was because if all the events that happened, happened on one time line, there's no room for change. changing things necessitates multiple timelines where different events occurred in different ways in different timelines. the theory in TTTW wife was that only one timeline exists and could ever exist. that the universe doesn't allow "changing things".

Lost has skirted around these issues from the beginning. Fate/destiny vs. free will. course correcting. we're not "supposed" to leave this island. you're not "supposed" to make that call. we weren't "supposed" to leave, we have to go back.

[ March 02, 2008, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Strider ]
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Thanks, that makes sense.
That is how it is in Outlander, too. Claire is worried about one person dying, and then someone else not existing in the future. What they realize is that the thing they thought happened is not really how it happened, and that nothing changed except their perception of the event. (vagueness so as not to give spoilers)
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
quote:
But desmond gets exposed in 2004, and yet this somehow causes his 1996 consciousness to travel to the future. that doesn't make sense to me.
Are you assuming that time flows in one direction? I think that because 1996 already happened, then it would be easier for Desmond to go backward to that time.

quote:
What if the reason all the characters have these really unlikely connections in their past, is because the Island has actually created all these connections. Which is not to say the past events didn't happen, but in a weird twist on cause and effect and the nature of time and whether it can be changed, these people all crash here and the island created these intertwining pasts for whatever reason.
I like the time theories you have, but I think that this has more to do with Mittelos/Hanso/DHARMA meddling.

When Sayid and Desmond were on the boat, there was a calender that showed that it was Christmas Eve 2004, and Desmond's call to Penny confirms that this isn't just a ploy. I have a question about this: How is it that the time on the island can be so screwy, and yet the same date is still maintained?
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Reader:
quote:
But desmond gets exposed in 2004, and yet this somehow causes his 1996 consciousness to travel to the future. that doesn't make sense to me.
Are you assuming that time flows in one direction? I think that because 1996 already happened, then it would be easier for Desmond to go backward to that time.

yeah, but remember, that's not what happened. Desmond didn't go back to 1996. His 1996 consciousness was sent forward to 2004. hence why i'm curious as to how an event in 2004, causes himself in 1996 to be sent to 2004.

Your comment about time flowing in two directions is i guess still valid though. BUT then my question still stands about why 1997, 1998, 1999 Desmond and so on, doesn't remember the events that transpired in 1996(i.e.-him traveling to the future) and know all along that he's going to end up on the island.

quote:
I like the time theories you have, but I think that this has more to do with Mittelos/Hanso/DHARMA meddling.
that's what I had always originally assumed. But if that's the case, there still needs to be a good explanation for WHY those particular people are being meddled with. Why do they have all these random path crossings before they get to the island? My theory was an attempt to explain this as the connections were made after the fact. But again, I don't necessarily believe that theory myself, I'm just trying to think of ways to explain these connections and the recent playing with time in Lost has got my brain working.

quote:
When Sayid and Desmond were on the boat, there was a calender that showed that it was Christmas Eve 2004, and Desmond's call to Penny confirms that this isn't just a ploy. I have a question about this: How is it that the time on the island can be so screwy, and yet the same date is still maintained?
Because the call was made on the boat, outside of the range of the island's influence(which is two days behind the time on the boat).
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:
My speculation is that in one of the coming few episodes Daniel will explain to us what "pushing the button" was all about, and that it will have something to do with keeping the island's time in sync with the outside world.
I think your theory is right on Tres. I think since the hatch exploded and Desmond turned the failsafe the island time has been getting more out of whack with real time.
 
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 
If Desmond's consciousness from 1996 came forward in time to 2004, it seems like he would have periods of lucidity in 2004. Whenever his consciousness is, his other self goes catatonic. I can understand that for his 1996 self, but wouldn't his 2004 self regain control when his 1996 self went back?
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
It seemed like there were no periods of lucidity in either time. Each time he would jump to a particular time it seemed like he was jumping into an empty shell which had just been lying around since his last jump.

reasons pointing toward it being his 1996 consciousness that's doing the leaping:

he doesn't recognize anyone from the future
he doesn't know where he is or why he's there
he thinks the year is 1996 and is shocked to find out it's 2004
basically, he has no memory of events he should have experienced. one explanation is that his 2004 consciousness was sent back to 1996 but also wiped of all memories that happened after 1996. I think a more straightforward explanation is that we're watching 1996 Desmond jump around in time.

[ March 04, 2008, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Strider ]
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Reader:
[qb] Because the call was made on the boat, outside of the range of the island's influence(which is two days behind the time on the boat).

If you consider the easter egg Jack laid when he said "I can't believe its been 100 days since I've seen a game", you get a time difference between the island and the boat of 6 days (with the island being ahead 6 days. When the missile was sent to island, there was a time lag of 31 minutes between the boat and the island. The process which took only a few seconds in boat time took 31 minutes on the island. Then when Sayid and Desmond fly to the boat it takes ~ 2 days in island time, minutes in helicopter time and we have no idea how long in boat time.
Then add in the fact that the boat and the island are able to communicate by radio in real time.

In summary, the time shift between the island and the boat isn't constant but seems to be dependent on how matter and energy traverse between the island and the boat.
 
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 
Exactly. What happened to his 2004 self? Once he found his constant, he was back to normal, but during the time he was unstuck, his 2004 self was just gone.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
yeah, i have no idea "where" his 2004 self is during all this time!

Rabbit, are you sure about this 6 day difference?

oh, and in that snippet you quoted it should read 2 days ahead of the time on the boat. not behind.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
One more piece of possibly relevant data. Charlie's conversation with Penny occurs ~2-3 days island time prior to Desmond's conversation with Penny from the boat. At that point Penny was asking "what boat?". Then we find out that Penny was calling the boat prior to when the communication guy took off in the dingy for the island which was prior to when the team left for the island.

The bottom line is that we have no idea how long ago Penny received the call from Charlie.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:

Rabbit, are you sure about this 6 day difference?


From Sept 22 2004 (date of plane crash) to Dec. 24 2004 is 94 days. Assuming Jack's comment about "100 days since he'd a game" meant 100 days on the Island, you get 6 days.

As I mentioned the first time, it is far from certain that Jack's comment means 100 days on the Island. Maybe he hadn't seen a game since before he left for Australia -- nevertheless I think its unlikely that they threw in the comment about 100 days if it wasn't supposed to be a clue about the time shift between the Island and the rest of the world.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I assumed Penny's "calls" to the boat were of a similar nature to the call she placed to Charlie in the Looking Glass. She didn't have a phone number for the looking glass right? It was a particular frequency she was transmitting on.

I guess the question is, why was she transmitting on that frequency and who was she trying to reach? And were the "calls" that Minkowski talked about just her transmitting on that same frequency, and they were ordered to not pick it up, or where they calls of a difference nature? I assumed the former.

edit - and also, why was the looking glass station set at the same particular frequency Penny was transmitting on.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Given some of this new stuff we've talked about, and if you're most recent theory about time on the Island is correct Rabbit(i.e. - if it's not just getting exponentially out of whack, but is jumping around), I'd like to resurrect my theory about who Hurley saw in Jacob's cabin. Here's what I had said:

quote:
I assumed it was Locke as well. But if it isn't, could it have been Jack? And the scene happened in some sort of time warp(i.e.- the scene inside the cabin happens in an episode later in the season).
I think time warp is now suddenly looking very likely. Jack being in there would explain why Jacob appears to him as his father and why the face Hurley sees is kind of freaking out.

I really doubt Locke or Ben would ever look like that.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
It's definitely not Locke. The eye color was wrong (judging from frame grabs on the internet).

What color eyes does Ben have?
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
It just occurred to me that at least 2 days passed on the Island between when the helicopter departed (Jack's 100 day comment) and when Desmond calls Penny on Christmas Eve. That would up the time shift to at least 8 days.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
well, for it to be Ben the time warp theory still has to be correct. It has to be someone who would have been alone at that point in time. Doesn't really leave room for any of the Losties. It would have to be an Other(maybe Mikhail?), or a time warp type scenario.

I don't know what color eyes Ben has.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I checked on Lostpedia Rabbit, and their time line doesn't reflect this 6 day difference at all. You might want to submit it for discussion.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Here's another odd thought. Daniel indicates that prior exposure to EM radiation was the cause of Desmond's "side effect when leaving the island.

So far all the Losties (except Aaron) who've made it off the Island weren't near the hatch when it blew. Jack, Kate and Hurley were prisoners of Ben et al. Sayid was on the sail boat. The others who weren't present near the hatch include Sawyer, Jin, Sun, Michael and Walt.

At this point it seems that ones location during the massive EM explosion may be the determining factor for who is able to leave the island. Aaron could be an exception because his age or the fact that he was born on the island.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
But having side effects when leaving doesn't necessitate not being able to leave. Desmond fixes himself through the use of a constant. Anyone else having side effects upon leaving would also be able to use a constant to right themselves I'd think.

Also, I would argue that the only people exposed to the EM radiation were Desmond, Charlie, Echo and Locke. Half of which are dead now.

Though you're right in that anyone exposed to the radiation would have more problems leaving the Island than someone not.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
But having side effects when leaving doesn't necessitate not being able to leave. Desmond fixes himself through the use of a constant. Anyone else having side effects upon leaving would also be able to use a constant to right themselves I'd think.

Also, I would argue that the only people exposed to the EM radiation were Desmond, Charlie, Echo and Locke. Half of which are dead now.

I think everyone who heard the sound and saw the sky turn colors was exposed to some level of radiation. Radiation exposure typically decays as the square of the distance from the source so all those closer to the source would have gotten a higher dose than those farther from the source.

I think Desmond's ability to fix himself through use of a constant wouldn't be widely applicable since it would be very difficult for most people to find something that was both present on the rescue boat and in their pre-island time. Desmond is only able to do it because Penny is calling the boat in 2004 so he knows that she exists in both his past and his present. He makes this connection and is trying to find her in 1996 even before Daniel tells him he must find a constant.

[ March 04, 2008, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
good point.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Here's another odd thought. Daniel indicates that prior exposure to EM radiation was the cause of Desmond's "side effect when leaving the island.

So far all the Losties (except Aaron) who've made it off the Island weren't near the hatch when it blew. Jack, Kate and Hurley were prisoners of Ben et al. Sayid was on the sail boat. The others who weren't present near the hatch include Sawyer, Jin, Sun, Michael and Walt.

At this point it seems that ones location during the massive EM explosion may be the determining factor for who is able to leave the island. Aaron could be an exception because his age or the fact that he was born on the island.

Are you the one who posted that theory on DocArtz's site?
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
No, I've never been to the DocArtz site.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Great minds, I guess.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
DocArzt.

Sorry, poor guy got blown up and he hated it when people said his name wrong, so I just have to speak up on his behalf. Even if it was intentional. ;-)
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Heh.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Why does Whidmore give Desmond Penny's address?

And why does he leave the water running?
 
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
Why does Whidmore give Desmond Penny's address?

And why does he leave the water running?

I think, "Because he's a D.B." answers both those questions.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
I think, "Because he's a D.B." answers both those questions.
Not really. Even D.B.'s generally have reasons for what they do even if decent people would not consider them good reasons.
 
Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
So. My parents think that Sayid is Ben's man on the boat, but I don't see how they got out of the locked room if it was Sayid. I've been thinking it was Michael for a while now, but when the announcer said it was someone "you never thought you'd see again" for some reason Patchy came to mind. He's escaped brain-melting-fields and harpoon guns, why not underwater grenade damage?

Ben is creepy. I used to think he was creepy in a rational way, but now he just seems creepy in a socially-maladjusted possessive way. Which is creepier.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
I'm fairly certain the writers said that Mikhail finally died. It couldn't be Sayid.

And we know that Michael should be coming back. I'm pretty positive it's him or Walt.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I heard them say that Mikhail is definitely dead also. Though I was sad to hear that cause I totally thought he was still alive!

I guess I can buy the Michael talk. Ben got Sayid to work for him eventually through guilt and manipulation, he could've done the same thing with Michael. Though I also won't be surprised if it isn't Michael.

Who's the captain of the boat? Does Whidmore really want the island for the reasons Ben stated? What exactly was happening with that power station? Why was it about to release the gas right then? How did Charlotte and Dan know it was going to happen? When did Ben have a chance to set it off? And what was he going to do to protect himself? I'm worried that Juliet dies eventually.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
I'm pretty sure that was when he killed off all the Dharma guys (including his dad) and he wore a gas mask.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
?

was that in response to me?
 
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
I think they didn't "disable" the power plant/gas, so much as hack it so they have control, rather than Ben. There's appears to be some sort of power struggle over the island between Ben and his organization and Whidmore and his organization.

-Bok
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
yeah, that makes sense.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
so what's the significance of the therapist showing up admit the whispers, and then disappearing along with them as well?

And who is the woman that Juliet looks just like?

Ben was awesome in this last episode. "see you guys at dinner!"

And Juliet's line about how stressful it is being an Other was brilliant.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
And who is the woman that Juliet looks just like?

It could be the girl he liked, but I think it's his mother.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
quote:
so what's the significance of the therapist showing up admit the whispers, and then disappearing along with them as well?
I think this is more evidence that the monster is pulling off acts like this. She just disappeared in a flurry of backward whispering, leaving Jack and Juliette confused.

As for Ben's man on the boat, it may be Sayid. In his flash forward, he was probably killing people involved with Charles Widmore. If Widmore's interest in the Island is interrupted by unfortunate deaths, Sayid's friends, the survivors, would be protected. The irony here is Ben is the good guy because he is preventing exploitation of the Island, which would also keep its inhabitants secret.

I'm not ruling out Michael being Ben's (other) man. He must have made a major deal with Ben in order to take Walt away, who Ben and the rest really wanted. It was probably an agreement for Michael to work for Ben off the Island, possibly another anti-Widmore deal, but not involving murder.

This may explain why Ben is off the island in the future. As long as Sayid and Michael keep up their work, Ben's people on the Island are safe. It's the off-island people who are in danger from Widmore, and Ben needs to stay close to them to keep them safe. Staying close means staying away from the effects of the island.

By finding Desmond, Penny may have doomed him because the location would have been revealed. She probably knows that her father is a man capable many things, but she doesn't have a clue about the island, as far as we know, so she doesn't know that her father is looking for it.
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
I'd be extremely surprised if the man on the boat was not Michael.

I'm not ready to buy Whidmore being bad right now.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Juliet calling herself "an Other" was kind of funny.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I don't see how Ben's man on the boat can be Sayid. Ben said that before Sayid ever got there, and was given all the information about the people on the boat. It's just not possible for it to be Sayid.

I think a plausable explanation for Michael helping Ben(besides being manipulated through guilt for what he did), is that he is now a free man who can't reveal himself for who he is because he's supposed to be dead and there will be way to many questions to answer. He might be working for Ben simply in exchange for money and protection.
 
Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
I think that's the most likely scenario. I figure when Michael left one of two things happend. Either Ben gave him a fake bearing so that he would just get lost at sea. He wants the island kept secret and it makes zero sense for him to allow Michael to run back to Normal World and tell everyone about a mystery island. So either Michael is floating around lost at sea, or he gave Michael the bearing to the freighter, and told him off-camera that if he spies on them then everything will be hunky dory.

There seems to be so much importance put on bearings...Daniel telling the pilot that he has to make sure, regardless of what his eyes tell him, to follow the same exact bearing they came in on.

I think that Whidmore is trying to find the island, but I think Ben is making him look bad to Locke, because he knows the only reason Locke would help him is if Locke thought the island was in danger.

Do you think it's possible that Whidmore's boat is actually a different boat than Creepy Skeletal Guy's boat with his team of Faraday, CS Lewis, Naomi, and Miles? We haven't actually received direct confirmation that CSG is working for Whidmore, and it would be pretty typical of the writers to have us accidentally conflate the two boats into one.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
"I'm worried that Juliet dies eventually."

I am worried that she won't. I can't stand her.

And what is up with her look-alike? At first, I thought it was a way to get Juliette's actress out of the show, and replace her, like they tried with Meadow Soprano.

The look-alike even had Juliette's annoying expressions down, but she could never, ever get the nauseating way she says, is sort of a throaty whisper, "Jaaaack."
 
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
 
quote:
Ben was awesome in this last episode. "see you guys at dinner!"
Man that slayed me. The way he walked across the courtyard with that self-satisfied little smile on his face and the fresh linens in his arms. And then that line delivery... Classic. Ben is one of my favorite characters.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
Wait, I'm sooo confused. I just watched it online and there was some skippy stuff going on and I think I missed some things. What's all this about a Juliette lookalike?
 
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
 
"Creepy skeletal guy" has been "Major Daniels" in the HBO series The Wire for too long in my mind, and it was hilarious seeing him outside of that role.

They're setting up the show so that Ben, who's been so despicably evil and manipulating (and creepy-possessive of Juliet), is going to end up being the good guy. I'm totally ready for it.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Uprooted, it is when they are running through the jungle, and a couple of other times. I am actually going to watch it again, I think.

OK, I see nothing written about a different actress playing Juliet or a different character who looks like Juliet, but I SWEAR it seemed like it was not her a few times.

[ March 08, 2008, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
OK, I looked through the Lostpedia episode summary and it says that Harper said "you look just like her" when talking about Ben's crush on Juliet. I didn't catch that line when I was watching. But if there was a different actress playing her at any point, I didn't notice it.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
I noticed(what I thought was) the different Juliet before that was said. After it was said, I wondered if there were times when the person we thgought was Juliet was the other person, and it was a flashback or something.

I also thought they had maybe replaced the actress.

So, I guess I was seeing things! Maybe she is just one of those people who look really different depending on what their expression is, whether their hair is "big" or plastered to their heads.
 
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
Okay, this is speculation, but I'm sure of it.

Penny doesn't love Desmond.

She's helping her Dad find the island.

She's married. Either her kid or her husband is sick, and she's stringing Desmond along to try to find the island to help that person.

In a future episode, we will see her at Christmastime again taking Desmond's call, and we will see who she was really with, and we will know what her true motives are.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
doc,
I could see that happening, as it did with Sayid.
Hmm.
That would make me very sad.
I think it was no accident that the photographer took their picture right before Des bailed, either.
So, while I accept your theory as plausible, I reject it out of heart.
Please refrain from ever mentioning it again! (joking, just to be clear)
 
Posted by cassv746 (Member # 11173) on :
 
I don't think there was a different actress playing Juliet at one point. The you look just like her line gave me the impression that she looks like someone Ben used to like or even love.

Maybe he had a wife who was pregnant and she died on the island and Juliet looks like her. Big leap I know but hey, anythings possible given this show.

I did love the end too though with Ben walking with his fresh linens and his black eyes acting like he didn't have a care in the world.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
I think Ben's man is probably Michael. I was looking through Lostpedia to see if Sayid had ever had a conversation with Ben this season where some kind of deal might be implied. I couldn't find anything, so I don't believe that it is Sayid. But he makes a deal at some point. He certainly wouldn't kill for Ben otherwise.

The last of the Oceanic Six show up in the next episode. So far, with every flashback/flashforward involving those people, the time has moved backwards, closer to their rescue. I'm interested to see how close it gets this time.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Do we have a legitimate time line for the flash forwards this season?
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Not that I know of. I think I'm wrong. I know of just two flashbacks whose time can be confirmed: Jack's from "Through the Looking Glass" and Hurley's this season. Jack's occured before Hurley's timewise.
 
Posted by Aeroth (Member # 6269) on :
 
I'm fairly certain that events in the flash forwards in "The Beginning of the End" took place before those in "Through The Looking Glass." In the premiere's flash forwards, Jack had yet to fully undergo the downward spiral towards alcoholism and drug addiction, nor had his desire to return to the island surfaced.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Yeah, I'd assume Jack's episode is the furthest along in the time line. All the others seem up in the air to me, though I'm sure the information is embedded in the episodes somewhere.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by docmagik:
She's married.

If she was married, she probably would have had a wedding ring on. I looked, and they very clearly showed that she had one ring, on her right hand, and none on her left.

She isn't married.
 
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
i'm glad i haven't got so wrapped up in the mysteries of Lost that I can't appreciate how dark and tragic the whole Juliette/Goodwin/Ben thing was. And not one person on this thread was even like "whoa, surprise, they were in lurve!" i keep thinking i must've missed some mention of their affair earlier in the show... [Smile]
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I think that's because I was sort of indifferent to it. Really, the whole flashback in general didn't do anything for me. I didn't care that she had an affair with Goodwin. Or that his wife was her therapist. Or that Ben was jealous. It *was* interesting to see new light shed on those events though. The most interesting of which was Ben's sending Goodwin out to die("What's Ben gonna do?" immediately followed by the plane crash. what a fantastic juxtaposition). His little speech to her at the end was so evil too.

"after everything i've done to get you here. after everything i've done to keep you here. How can you possibly not understand....that YOUR MINE."

F'ing chilling.
 
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
Check this out someone on LJ did an analysis of Faraday's blackboard.

Some crazy Physics mumbo jumbo
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leonide:
i'm glad i haven't got so wrapped up in the mysteries of Lost that I can't appreciate how dark and tragic the whole Juliette/Goodwin/Ben thing was. And not one person on this thread was even like "whoa, surprise, they were in lurve!" i keep thinking i must've missed some mention of their affair earlier in the show... [Smile]

You did. We knew that Goodwin and Juliette were lovers. As far as Ben having a thing for Juliette, it wasn't much of a surprise.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
Yeah, I'd assume Jack's episode is the furthest along in the time line. All the others seem up in the air to me, though I'm sure the information is embedded in the episodes somewhere.

I'm assuming that Sayid's episode is the furthest along in time based on the amount of gray in his hair and beard that weren't there on the island. I'm not positive but it seemed to me that there was more gray in the first scene on the golf course than in the later scenes. It also seemed that Sayid had put on a bit of weight in that scene which he didn't have later in the episode. I think its entirely possible that the golf course killing took place after he killed the woman not before.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:
You did. We knew that Goodwin and Juliette were lovers
true, but we didn't know it was an affair.

the most I remember about it is maybe Juliet calling it "complicated" at some point. But I may be making this up.
 
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
 
Just check their facebooks. You can tell everyone's relationship history on facebook.

Of course, all the romantic relationships are still listed as "It's Complicated" except for good ole' Sun and Jin.
 
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
 
Just check their facebooks. You can tell everyone's relationship history on facebook.

Of course, all the romantic relationships are still listed as "It's Complicated" except for good ole' Sun and Jin.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Sun had an affair with her english teacher. Her baby may not even be Jin's.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Reader:
Sun had an affair with her english teacher. Her baby may not even be Jin's.

That possibility was ruled out when the ultra sound showed conclusively that the baby was conceived on the Island.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
That's only what Juliette said. Is there any other evidence than her word?
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Well we do know that she told Sun and Ben the same date, so if she is lying it would have to be for some completely obscure reason.

Beside that, they've now been on the Island for over 100 days. If Sun had been pregnant before she left Korea, she'd be showing by now.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Well we do know that she told Sun and Ben the same date, so if she is lying it would have to be for some completely obscure reason.

Beside that, they've now been on the Island for over 100 days. If Sun had been pregnant before she left Korea, she'd be showing by now.

I don't trust a single thing Juliette does. I do wonder if her name has significance. I hope it is because she will have the same fate as her namesake in Shakespeare. (sorry, I really don;t like her character. If she were a real person, I promise I would not want her to die a miserable, Lost-style death)

Would the time anomaly business affect the timing of her pregnancy?
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
I don't trust Juliette either. I think I mentioned in the Season 3 thread that she is only out for herself. All she wants is to leave the island. What she has done is align herself with the most powerful group, and that is currently the castaways. There is a big betrayal coming from her in the future.

I thought Sun was beginning to show. Wasn't that mentioned by someone in the show?
 
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
Lost is breaking my heart!

And glad to see Michael back even if it wasn't a surprise.

I'm excited for next week. Someone is going to die and I'm just hoping it'll be Juliet!!
 
Posted by kanelock (Member # 10982) on :
 
Wouldn't it be funny if they brought Michael back just to kill him off!? [Laugh]
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Shanna, my sistah!
Go Juliet! and by that we mean, "Juliet, go. Forever."

I don't get the Jin thing. The panda clip happened before the birth?

Is the captain a good guy or a bad guy?

Is Ben good or bad?

I am more confused than ever, except for these facts:

Sawyer is hot.
Desmond is hot. (3/4 of hotness=accent)
Jack is a whiner.
Juliet must die.
All Losties must wash their hair.
 
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
I think the panda stuff was supposed to be a flashback, not a flash-forward. They were just trying to throw us off (although I suspected from the very beginning that he wasn't going to visit Sun.) My husband swears that he saw Jin in the delivery room, but I didn't think it was him.

--Mel
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
I lost a lot of respect for Juliet when she ratted out Sun to Jin. Even if she was trying to help, there's no logical reason to think doing that would help get Sun off the island, she's just being a b****.
 
Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
 
I don't know if that was a flash back. So far they have been fairly consistent in not mixing flash fowards with flash backs in the same episode.

I thought that maybe Jin made it off but listed as officially dead and Sun does not know.

Juliet ratted Sun out because she really does not want Sun to go to Locke's and stay on the island. She knew that Jin would not go and that Sun would stay. It was a dirty trick but effective.

msquared
 
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
I think it was a flashback.

Either that or the show is playing silly games again. Like, Sun only thinks Jin is dead but he made it off the island but with amnesia and he remarried or he suffers from some variation of that time-displacment-thingy.

But that's just crazy. Though, this is Lost we're talking about.

I lean towards flashback because the phone he was using looked alittle out of place. And what year is the show set it in? Is it the year of the Dragon?
 
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
May or may not be important but according to screencaps, the death date listed on the tombstone is the day of the plane crash.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
It was definitely a flashback. And not to brag(actually...just to brag) i called it from the very beginning of the episode when we first saw Jin. It just seemed like the kind of thing Lost would do. Then the rest of the flashes just confirmed it. When he actually goes in to buy the panda but isn't excited about his baby being born. When Sun is in the hospital she reacts really negatively to having the wedding ring removed and only mentions his name after she's been drugged. He doesn't seem like he's talking to Sun on the phone in his phone calls given his tone of voice, but then who would he be talking to? Who knows she's in labor? Then obviously the reveal at the end, that he's only been married two months, and his being dead in the future. Still, knowing it didn't lessen the impact, i kept hoping that he wouldn't be dead but would still be on the Island, as soon as Hurley said we should go see him my heart dropped.

This fits perfectly with the story Jack tells at the trial. He says 8 survived but 2 couldn't be saved. We had posited that the reason to add this seemingly unnecessary detail was because there were 2 bodies to explain when the 6 make it back to civilization. Well, we now know Jin is one of those bodies. Which at least means he won't die next week.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
I hated last night's episode.

I mean, HATE.

Thus sayeth the Lord...
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
The Jin flashback was just a cheap gimmick to throw us off track. (ETA: or, what Scott just said much more eloquently in his link above. I'm such a slow poster!)

Juliet's comment to Sun afterwards, that she had to do what she did to help Sun get off the island, really rankled. "You are my patient." What, so that makes you God? Puh-leeze. I'm starting to join the "death to Juliet" ranks. There are a couple of expressions on her face that make me want to slap her. I'm afraid I might never be able to watch that actress in another role!
 
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
Note: Just because Michael was on the boat, doesn't mean Michael is Ben's man on the boat. We are supposed to assume it is, but it could be a trick...

Where is Walt?
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
I really like Juliet. I don't think the writers did a good job with her last night, though.
 
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
I hated last night's episode.

So did I, but not for the reasons you cite.

I didn't mind the flashfoward/flashback intermingling. I just thought it was immensely boring. I mean, nothing happened to move anything forward. I could understand it if the writers needed an episode to reposition characters, but no one was repositioned except Michael (and the false drama of his reveal was totally unnecessary). Otherwise the episode ended exactly as it began.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
So do the people who hated the flashforward/flashback also hate last seasons' finale? They did the same thing to us there. Purposefully misled us and lied to us(go get my father...if i'm more drunk then him...).

I loved that episode. And not to say I loved last nights, but I don't know why it would be out of the range of usual Lost stuff to do something like that.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Xaposert:
Note: Just because Michael was on the boat, doesn't mean Michael is Ben's man on the boat. We are supposed to assume it is, but it could be a trick...

There's a clip on Kristin's page from next week that has Ben saying, straight out, who his spy on the boat is.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Juliette is the last Cylon, btw. Just thought you'd all want to know that.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
I was one of the ones who saw the "twist" coming a mile away, and it still annoyed me that they played games with us in order to pull a surprise ending.

Actually, I felt about the same way as I did in the episode where we find out Sayid is working for Ben. In that final scene, they change the timbre of Ben's voice (as though he's speaking through a long hollow tube) until the moment we see his face, then they remove the voice altering mechanism so it sounds like Ben. Why did they do that? There is no other reason than that it's necessary in order to delay the moment of surprise.

This plot twist was similar. Jin's story does nothing to advance the story, or even show us anything about Jin's character. Its sole purpose was to create a surprising moment.

When there's no reason for it except to make a surprise possible, it's just irritating, and it feels like they're cheating.

I didn't feel that way about the season finale with the first flash-forward because that flash forward was important in that it revealed information both about the characters and about the plot line.

It wasn't messing with us just for the sake of messing with us.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:
There's a clip on Kristin's page from next week that has Ben saying, straight out, who his spy on the boat is.
Who the heck is Kristin?
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Reader:
If the island ends up being in a vile vortex I will be disappointed because that's a cop out. Where's the imagination in that old chestnut?

I think that would depend entirely on how they did it - if the conclusion is essentially them saying: "Hey, it's in a vile vortex, so we don't have to explain anything - what do you expect?" that's a copout.

But if they completely explain and tie everything together well internally, and in addition make sure that everything fits with the external mythos of the Bermuda Triangle type regions, then having it revealed that the island is in a vile vortex would - I think - make the conclusion even more satisfying.

In other words: Using vile vortexes to explain LOST would be bad. Using LOST to explain vile vortexes would be good.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Watch With Kristin. Great site about TV news.

The folks at Lost have been leaking between 2-4 short clips for upcoming eps each week. They call them "sneak peeks". Usually they show up around Sunday, from what I've seen, but Kristin has 2 for next week up already (direct link). One of the two for next week takes place on the boat, and one takes place back in Locke's camp.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
It was definitely a flashback. And not to brag(actually...just to brag) i called it from the very beginning of the episode when we first saw Jin. It just seemed like the kind of thing Lost would do. Then the rest of the flashes just confirmed it. When he actually goes in to buy the panda but isn't excited about his baby being born. When Sun is in the hospital she reacts really negatively to having the wedding ring removed and only mentions his name after she's been drugged. He doesn't seem like he's talking to Sun on the phone in his phone calls given his tone of voice, but then who would he be talking to? Who knows she's in labor? Then obviously the reveal at the end, that he's only been married two months, and his being dead in the future. Still, knowing it didn't lessen the impact, i kept hoping that he wouldn't be dead but would still be on the Island, as soon as Hurley said we should go see him my heart dropped.

This fits perfectly with the story Jack tells at the trial. He says 8 survived but 2 couldn't be saved. We had posited that the reason to add this seemingly unnecessary detail was because there were 2 bodies to explain when the 6 make it back to civilization. Well, we now know Jin is one of those bodies. Which at least means he won't die next week.

How is this a flashback? It seemed to be the earliest flash forward. Sun was mentioned as being one of the Oceanic Six by a nurse or aide that helped her into the hospital. She also gave the baby the name that Jin suggested.

I don't know why Jin would pretend to be dead, unless Mr. Paik were in on it. Perhaps Jin's fake death was part another deal.

Edit to add: Michael's return was probably the worst kept Lost secret ever, and I think he has been brought back just to die.
 
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
 
Sun's story wasn't a flashback, Jin's was...
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Didn't he see her in the delivery room for a split second before a guard closed the door? This would establish that it was a flash forward.
 
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
No, he saw the daughter (?) of the business man to whom he gave the panda.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
yeah, sorry if i was unclear Reader, I was specifically talking about Jin's portion. Sun was a flashforward and Jin was a flashback. that was the big reveal at the end. why would they go visit his grave otherwise?
 
Posted by anitablake (Member # 11526) on :
 
Hey I am a huge LOST and OSC fan so I thought I'd post. I can't believe Juliet told Jin about the affair and I think Sun should have knocked her out. I am all for her being the one to die.
Also, i just saw a screencap at darkufo.blogspot.com of an axe in the side of the ship they're on. What's that all about?
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
yeah, sorry if i was unclear Reader, I was specifically talking about Jin's portion. Sun was a flashforward and Jin was a flashback. that was the big reveal at the end. why would they go visit his grave otherwise?

I thought about what you meant. That makes sense now. It's still so obscure that someone not as into the show we are would see the events as happening at the same time.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
So if names mean things in this show, and Juliet is Juleit, who is Romeo? The stabbed-with-a-post fellow? Jack? Or Ben? Someone we don't know about?
 
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
 
According to the official Lost site's name generator, Sawyer would call me "Burnt Unit". I kind of like that.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Link???
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
I just realized.
Penelope.
Odysseus.
Desmond is Odysseus, trying to get home to Penelope.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
The Sirens.
Scylla and Charybdis.
The Cyclops.
The bag of winds.

He arrives on the island and is stranded, seduced by something, as Odysseus was seduced by Circe.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Oh, and he arrives on a boat. And he is a bit like Cassandra as well, able to predict the future, but with no one to believe him.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Elizabeth, about Juliet, that's not only assuming that her name is meaningful, but also that it's *that* Juliet it's a reference to. I'm not sure about that.

I like your Penelope idea though.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Which island would it make the Lost island? I would think Cirde's island. People are lulled with leisure, and then turned into animals.
 
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
 
Sawyer gave me a nickname too: Hawking.

Then I tried it two more times with the same answers. He decided to call me Professor, then Lightbulb.


Linky.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
I tried three times, giving all of the same answers. He called me Blonde, Chewie, and Hawking. It's random.
 
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
I agree with you Scott. Perhaps not to the same extreme, but after a "very good" episode followed by a "great" episode and then a "decent" episode, was a shame to get a "bad" episode.

Jin's flashback did NOTHING for the story but attempt to throw the audience off. That's a cheap hack. If his flashback was somehow relevant, then it would have been forgiven. It wasn't though, and so was just lame.
 
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
 
I just played all the way through Via Domus for X360. Are those spoilers welcome here? Because something happened in the game that could be incredibly relevant to the story right now.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
What's Via Domus?
 
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
 
It's a game for Xbox 360 where you play as one of the survivors that hasn't been named in the show. The game rips through, behind the scenes if you will, the first two seasons. You have amnesia and you try to regain your memory throughout the game, and the end has a huge reveal if the game is canon.
 
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
 
Nevermind. It isn't canon.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
quote:
Jin's flashback did NOTHING for the story but attempt to throw the audience off. That's a cheap hack. If his flashback was somehow relevant, then it would have been forgiven. It wasn't though, and so was just lame.
That's what I think. If Jin's flashback were relevant, it should have been alone and with reveals as to who and what is significant. That never happened. The next episode is the last one before the break and the final five of the season. It ends with a cliffhanger, so maybe we'll get what we want with an incredible episode.
 
Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
 
It is entirely possible that Jin's flashback will be relevant but we don't know why or how yet.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I tend to think the others are right, Jin's flashback wasn't really relevant and it's main purpose was just to throw the viewer off. The only argument for relevancy that can be made is that Jin talks to Sun about the man he used to be and that he's not that man anymore. So the flashback in a way reminds us of the man he left behind. But I agree that's stretching.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
I tend to think the others are right, Jin's flashback wasn't really relevant and it's main purpose was just to throw the viewer off. The only argument for relevancy that can be made is that Jin talks to Sun about the man he used to be and that he's not that man anymore. So the flashback in a way reminds us of the man he left behind. But I agree that's stretching.

agreed. it reminds us of who he worked for, but really did little towards reminding us of who he WAS. Granted, one could argue that who you work for can say a lot about who you are, but even so, that's an awful lot of screen time devoted to saying "Hey! Don't forget that Jin used to work for an unscrupulous character!"
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
Even thought it's not canon- what happens at the end of Via Domus?
 
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
 
*SPOILERS FOR THE GAME*

You play an as yet unknown 815 survivor who has amnesia. You play the game to survive, and to regain your memory. You remember that you ratted out your journalist girlfriend who was trying to get the scoop on a dangerous guy connected to Thomas Mittelwerk and the Hanso Foundation. You did it so you could get the scoop. Anyway, this dangerous guy's bodyguard kills her, and you flee Australia to get away from this dangerous guy's lackeys because they saw you take a picture of him doing something shady. At the end of the game, you get a boat to get away from the island and Ben and Juliet tell you to use the bearing 325... the same bearing they told Michael to use. You sail away, and then suddenly you see Flight 815 break up over you, you knock out, you wake up on the beach, and your girlfriend, who is supposed to be dead, wakes you up in the middle of the initial time of the crash.
 
Posted by anitablake (Member # 11526) on :
 
I'm excited about tonight's episode, but it's sad it won't be back for three weeks.
 
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
 
What, no one cares about that episode?

Who shot Karl and Rousseau is the next Who shot JR.

Realistically, what do you think happened? I don't think anybody from the boat shot them. An evil part of me thinks Ben either did it or knew it would happen, but I don't think even he could do it. Of course, it could tie into that little speech he gave Michael over the radio about not killing innocents in a war (ironically). And he's killed family before.

Or Jacob could be involved somehow. I think I'd like that better, since I'm positive the parts with Libby were orchestrated by the Island/Jacob. Now, why the Libby apparition didn't want Michael to blow up the boat is beyond me at the moment. I would assume that the last five episodes of this season are going to involve Jacob in a big way.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
My suspicion was that Ben arranged the shooting. After all, he's the one who convinced the three of them to head off into the jungle. We know he despises Karl and Delenn, and we already know that he is capable of arranging things like that.

But, since this is LOST we're talking about, there's probably some other, far more surprising explanation! [Smile]
 
Posted by kanelock (Member # 10982) on :
 
Am I the only one who is upset about Rouseeu(not sure on the spelling) getting killed. She was a good character. [Cry]
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
We don't know if she's dead yet.

My guess is that Karl died and and Rousseau didn't.

What was with Sayid? I really dislike Michael but that was just stupid- telling Captain Gault that he was undercover. I lost a lot of respect for Sayid then.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Yeah, there's no way Rousseau is dead. I was also upset with Sayid. Oh the irony.

What was with Karl before he was shot? Did he subconsciously know something? Or was the power of the Island giving him a glimpse of his death? And did he really say "i've got a bad feeling about this?" Holy Star Wars reference Batman!
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
Didn't they make several references to Alex's stomach/midsection last night? Like it might have implied she was pregnant- which is of course one of Ben's great fears.

I think Ben would have Rousseau and Karl killed off in order to be in control of Alex, I think to ultimately save her life. I think he knows that war is about to break out and Rousseau would definitely join and Karl probably would to- just to defend the Losties even, whereas Ben wants Alex to simply survive he has those two around her killed so that she won't enter the frey.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Did anyone hear the tv program when Michael was trying to kill himself? It was a game show with a Vonnegut question, but I could not hear the question. (the answer was Kurt Vonnegut.)
Then, the next question was, "Who was the protagonist?" I did not hear that either! I have been trying to hear it on the computer.

Also, I think Ben arranged the killings, and Alex was never in danger.

I think Sayid made a good move, based on his history with Michael. If he cannot trust him, then he must trust his enemy more and is taking his chances.
 
Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
I think Ben orchestrated the killings. I wouldn't be surprised if he just told the Others who went to the temple to kill anybody who showed up with Alex.

I have no idea why Sayid did that, but he's usually right, so I'm sure we'll find something out.

Personally, I think that Creepy Skeletal Guy is on a separate team from Whidmore, and he put Naomi/Miles/Charlotte/Faraday/Pilot on Whidmore's boat for his own reasons.
 
Posted by anitablake (Member # 11526) on :
 
Did anyone see the preview for lost returning? It said now we know the oceanic 6 and it showed Kate, Jack, Sayid, Sun, Hurley, and Aaron. How could Aaron possibly be one of the six? He wasn't on the manifest for the plane because he wasn't born yet.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
I don't think it's unreasonable for them to just say- he was born on the island. Maybe they're telling everyone that Kate bore him.
 
Posted by anitablake (Member # 11526) on :
 
I'm not sure the time adds up for Kate having a child, due to the fact Sun hadn't had her child till they got back, there doesn't seem to be enough time even if Kate was pregnant before she got to the island.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Game show, anyone? What was the novel? Who was the protaganist?
 
Posted by anitablake (Member # 11526) on :
 
Novel: Slaughterhouse 5 protagonist:Billy Pilgrim
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
how long was Kate in Australia? she could've said she was like 6 months pregnant at time of plane crash.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
What are your guys' theories on Charles Whidmore? I'm curious.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
the question about the timeline of the pregnancy may be a moot question, as we know that timelines between the island and the outside world aren't 100% consistent.

Hmmm...I wonder if that's why Charlotte is C.S. Lewis...to make a parallel to the confusing timelines in Narnia.

I'm also rooting for Rousseau not being dead.
 
Posted by anitablake (Member # 11526) on :
 
I so hope Rousseau is not dead. I think she is one of the best characters.

As for the timeline, I think its shorter if you are off the island than on, so no time to have a baby for Kate. So even if there is a time difference I do not think the losties can explain that to the public once they return.
 
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
 
All the stuff they had with the Lost Experience is starting to come around. My theories on Charles Widmore could be intensely spoilerific, so I'll refrain. If any of you wish, though, wikipedia has a ton of info on it.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
I don't know though. Michael's mother said he had been gone for about two months. That seems about right to me.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
I'm not sure it's safe to assume there's any consistency to the flow of time.
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
Well, we found out that Tom was gay.

When they showed Rousseau, Alex, and Karl, my first thought was "Oh crap, they're going to kill Karl and Rousseau. Won't someone just F***ing kill Ben already?"
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by anitablake:
Novel: Slaughterhouse 5 protagonist:Billy Pilgrim

Thank you! How did you hear it? I tried and tried.
I did not read this novel. Is there any significance?
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
From Wikipedia(sorry, Von. fans):

Slaughterhouse-Five spans the life of a man who has "come unstuck in time." It is the story of Billy Pilgrim experiencing different time periods of his life, most notably his experience in World War II and his relationship with his family. The book is a series of seemingly random happenings that, in combination, present the thematic elements of the novel in an unraveling order.
 
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Shawshank:
I don't know though. Michael's mother said he had been gone for about two months. That seems about right to me.

I thought she was referring to time after he left Walt with her, after their return to mainland.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
I also hope that Rousseau is alive.

I think Charles Widmore must have had an experience early in his life involving the island. Ever since then he has spent his life ammassing a fortune big enough to search for it. Desmond, being an aquaintance of his daughter, ending up there may be a very happy accident.

Kate could end up with Aaron by saying that he had not yet been born after the crash, but his mother was very injured, too much so to tell her name or anything. Aaron's survival would almost be a miracle, but believable. On a plane with more than 300 people, the chances of Claire being the only pregnant woman on board are very low. The chance of her being the only one close to full-term is high, but it is possible that she wasn't the only one.

Wow, That's a grim hypothesis. [Frown]

In any case, I suspect that the issue of DNA testing will come up in the future.

Sayid's exposure of Michael may get Michael killed. When Sayid realizes that Michael was telling the truth about Widmore, he'll have to take up Michael's mission of protecting the people on the island. I have more respect for Michael now. At least he recognizes his treachery and is trying to do something about it.
 
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
Re: Odysseus, Penelope

It's the cyclops' island. We've already met him. I wonder who the sheep are?

-Bok
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
quote:

When they showed Rousseau, Alex, and Karl, my first thought was "Oh crap, they're going to kill Karl and Rousseau. Won't someone just F***ing kill Ben already?"

No! Ben is my favorite character, or second favorite- Ben and Sayid are my favorites. And I'm convinced that Ben is a good guy.
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
There is no rational explanation of past events that would make Ben a "Good" person.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
Well. I think his intentions are for the best of the island- his methodologies just are terrible. I think the new people (specifically Abaddon) are the real bad guys.
 
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
 
It's not going to get Michael killed. Sayid has not damned him. I think the island has big plans for Michael; why bring him back just to die? He's also too much of a fan favorite character to die.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bokonon:
Re: Odysseus, Penelope

It's the cyclops' island. We've already met him. I wonder who the sheep are?

-Bok

The more I think of it, though, the more I think it could be all of the islands and perils. Bok, have you seen any other Odyssey references? Who is Poseidon?
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by EmpSquared:
It's not going to get Michael killed. Sayid has not damned him. I think the island has big plans for Michael; why bring him back just to die? He's also too much of a fan favorite character to die.

He is? He's not one of my favorites, that's for sure.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
I know a lot of people are puzzled over Sayid's "betrayal", but I thought it was very much in keeping with the kind of person Sayid is.

Sayid is suspicious of the freighter people, but he knows for sure that he distrusts Ben.

If the freighter people really are the "good guys", then turning over Michael is a smart move.

If Ben turned out to be the "good guy", then Sayid's actions might interfere with Ben's plans, but since Michael has already given Ben all the info he has about the crew, and has done his sabotage, Sayid might conclude that it's not irepararable damage.

And at the same time, by declaring Michael a "traitor", he has essentially declared himself to be on the freighter peoples' side, and positions himself to get that much closer to finding out what's really going on.

To me it seems like that sort of intelligence/chess move thinking is just the sort of reasoning Sayid would come up with.

On the other hand, it could just be Sayid thinking with his heart instead of his head. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
quote:
It's not going to get Michael killed. Sayid has not damned him. I think the island has big plans for Michael; why bring him back just to die? He's also too much of a fan favorite character to die.
Among every Lost fan I know- he is everyone's least favorite character. (Other than Nikki and Paulo of course)
 
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
 
When he came on stage at Comic Con before this season, he got huge applause -- and I actually really like him as a character. I think his appeal is connected to the fact that if he appears, something big is going to happen on the show, because him returning means that.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jeorge:
I know a lot of people are puzzled over Sayid's "betrayal", but I thought it was very much in keeping with the kind of person Sayid is.

Sayid is suspicious of the freighter people, but he knows for sure that he distrusts Ben.

If the freighter people really are the "good guys", then turning over Michael is a smart move.

If Ben turned out to be the "good guy", then Sayid's actions might interfere with Ben's plans, but since Michael has already given Ben all the info he has about the crew, and has done his sabotage, Sayid might conclude that it's not irepararable damage.

And at the same time, by declaring Michael a "traitor", he has essentially declared himself to be on the freighter peoples' side, and positions himself to get that much closer to finding out what's really going on.

To me it seems like that sort of intelligence/chess move thinking is just the sort of reasoning Sayid would come up with.

On the other hand, it could just be Sayid thinking with his heart instead of his head. [Big Grin]

That does fit with Sayid's mode of operation, but we know that he works for Ben after being rescued. That's why I think his act is a betrayal. He has to work for Ben in order to redeem himself, but at the time, Sayid doesn't know that Michael is trying to save them. So, yeah, you're right about Sayid, but he isn't right about what he's done, but he doesn't know that yet.
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
I'm very certain that the person in the casket at the funeral was supposed to be Michael, now whether that means he did finally succeed in suicide after the Oceanic six got off the island, or if his death was faked is still to be determined.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Elizabeth:
From Wikipedia(sorry, Von. fans):

Slaughterhouse-Five spans the life of a man who has "come unstuck in time." It is the story of Billy Pilgrim experiencing different time periods of his life, most notably his experience in World War II and his relationship with his family. The book is a series of seemingly random happenings that, in combination, present the thematic elements of the novel in an unraveling order.

Slaughterhouse Five is a total rip-off of The Time-Traveler's Wife.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
I think the casket was definitely Ben.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
Every time I look at the casket scene I think: "that casket is too short for a 'normal' height adult", which makes me think Ben is a possibility because he's short.

On the subject of Sayid and the "betrayal", I may be remembering this wrong (it's so confusing to try to remember who knows what), but

1. Ben announced that he had a spy in Charlotte's presence.

2. Charlotte is no longer with Locke's company, which means she's been free to contact the freighter and let them know.

3. Sayid knows both 1 & 2? And therefore could reasonably assume that the freighter is more or less in lock-down mode because they already KNOW (and if they don't, they likely soon will know) there's a spy on board, and therefore Michael's usefulness was already shot.

Yes? No?
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Slaughterhouse Five is a total rip-off of The Time-Traveler's Wife.

Vonnegut himself was unstuck in time, traveled forward to the fall of 2004, read The Time-Traveler's Wife and then returned to the 1960s to write Slaughterhouse five thus enabling him to "rip-off" Audrey Niffenegger in 1969, 35 years before she even published her book.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
I don't know what Lisa was thinking but that would seem to be the only logical conclusion.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
I assumed Lisa was being facetious.

It makes sense, though, that I thought of TTTW when Desmond first started being "unstuck." They have never made reference to that novel, but made reference to it last week.

Another idea is this. The writers of Lost are Hatrack lurkers. When someone comes up with a great theory of what is happening on Lost, the writers write that idea into the script. COme to think of, that makes the most sense.

Stop using us, Lost-writing lurkers!
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Actually, when someone comes up with a great theory of what's happening on Lost here, history tells us that if it was right, the Lost-writers change it.

And yes, Rabbit pretty much nailed it. Given the subjects of the books, who's to say who copied from whom? Maybe they each ripped it off from each other, ouroborously.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
maybe they both ripped off a book yet to be published.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
No, Strider, both novelists ripped off the Lost writers, who ripped us off here on Hatrack.

We wrote Salughterhouse Five AND The Time Traveler's Wife, darnit!
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jeorge:
Every time I look at the casket scene I think: "that casket is too short for a 'normal' height adult", which makes me think Ben is a possibility because he's short.

On the subject of Sayid and the "betrayal", I may be remembering this wrong (it's so confusing to try to remember who knows what), but

1. Ben announced that he had a spy in Charlotte's presence.

2. Charlotte is no longer with Locke's company, which means she's been free to contact the freighter and let them know.

3. Sayid knows both 1 & 2? And therefore could reasonably assume that the freighter is more or less in lock-down mode because they already KNOW (and if they don't, they likely soon will know) there's a spy on board, and therefore Michael's usefulness was already shot.

Yes? No?

Ben announced he had a spy twice: the first time was only to Locke, but no name was mentioned on camera. The second time it was to Sawyer, Hurley, Miles, Alex, Danielle, and Karl. This was after Charlotte was released to Jack and co. As far as I know, Charlotte wasn't present for the first one, but that doesn't mean that nobody told her. However; she was a prisoner, and Locke doesn't allow access to his prisoners.

Edit to add: As for the casket, I think that the short length may be a production error. It could be holding a child, I.E. Walt, But I think the storyline supports Michael.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
I think you missed the first time. After Ben recited Charlotte's life history to everyone, they asked how he knew all that, and he said he had a spy on Ben's boat. Wasn't Charlotte present then?

I understand why Ben did it - Locke had a gun to his head, and giving up a secret was the only way he could convince Locke not to shoot him. But when he did that, he had to know that he was seriously compromising his spy.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
I forgot about that part. Charlotte had ample time to contact the freighter after Locke released her. Man, this show is getting to be like a soap opera. [Confused]
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
With all the shifting allegiances and all the secrets, my biggest fear for the show is that they will back themselves into a plot corner that they can't get out of because of some little detail they've forgotten.

So far I think they've done quite well at managing all the characters and their stories.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Was the guy in the hospital bed next to Michael Locke's father?
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jeorge:
With all the shifting allegiances and all the secrets, my biggest fear for the show is that they will back themselves into a plot corner that they can't get out of because of some little detail they've forgotten.

So far I think they've done quite well at managing all the characters and their stories.

You remind me of Mark Twain's short story A Medieval Tale. Let's hope the Lost producers and writers do not choose a similar tack.

Lost (and similar TV series) could be considered the heir to the great literary tradition of serial novels. Some of the greatest authors of the 19th century (including Dickens and Dostoevsky) published their works in serial. We are the 21st century equivalent of those who lined up at the docks in New York waiting for the latest installment on a Dickens novel. One of the great risks of publishing the first chapters of the novel before the final chapters are finished is the very real threat of inconsistencies and in fact one can find those inconsistencies in works by Dickens and Dostoevsky.

One would however hope that even though the final chapters weren't written before the first chapters were published, the author had at least roughed out the major plot line so as to avoid Twain's conundrum.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
Ha ha! I'd forgotten all about that story! It was funny when Twain did it, but I won't be impressed if LOST takes that route.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jeorge:
It was funny when Twain did it, but I won't be impressed if LOST takes that route.

The thing about TV is that they won't even have to admit they did it, they can just announce that the show has been cancelled. I can think of a number of shows whose season ended with a big cliff hanger which never got resolved because the show got cancelled.

It does make me wonder if the same thing happened to serial novels of lesser known authors. A magazine purchased the first chapter or chapters but then never printed the conclusion of the story either because it didn't generate enough interest for them to keep paying the author or because the author failed to finish the work. Could such a thing have served as inspiration for Mark Twain's story.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
Tonight's episode was freaking awesome!
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
absolutely agree. more thoughts to come later!
 
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
 
I'm watching online right now...after missing almost all of season 4...this episode rocks so far

Rambo Ben...the smoke monster...

of course questions abound....
 
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
All right, I'm going to throw an idea out that might be completely off the deep end.

Whidmore said that the island was his before Ben took it, and he wants it back. So it sounds like Whidmore was involved in the DHARMA initiative (I don't recall if that has been confirmed before).

My thought is, what if in some way, Whidmore has a connection to and control of the island? What if "Jacob" is really some projection of Whidmore that Ben has trapped and forced to do his will? The part that made me think of this was just after Alex died, when Ben said, "He changed the rules." At that point, I thought he was talking about Jacob, since Jacob seems to somehow have a lot of power on the island. However, at the end of the episode, Ben says those words to Whidmore. So how does Whidmore have the power to change the rules on the island?

--Mel
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
well, he changed the rules in the sense that his people killed Ben's daughter, which was "against the rules" apparently. i don't think the reference to the rules has to do with control over the island(at least not that one), but goes back to the idea that there is some sort of game going on, with agreed upon rules, that Whidmore is apparently no longer following.

The even larger question for me is why Ben can't kill Whidmore?

"did you come here to kill me?"

"you know i can't do that."

Why not???

Hurley's line at the beginning of the episode was great foreshadowing. "Australia is the key to the game" Everyone in the room with me all went, "Double Meaning!" at the same time, and were already discussing the implications of calling it a game.

Ben is so ridiculously badass.

So why does he have to ask the hotel receptionist the year? Is it only because time is moving differently on and off the island, or is there more of a time travel element going on? And if there is, what does that mean for all the character connections and forces that brought them to the island?

And what's up with the doctor? The boat time is behind the island time right? When they shot that drone or whatever, it took longer to reach the island. So the fact that the doc is dead and washed up on shore BEFORE it's actually happened on the boat goes against the time difference we've been shown. Or am I looking at this wrong?

Also, where Ben first landed in the Sahara...that's where the polar bear remains were found right?

And OMG, I couldn't believe they killed Alex. I did not see that coming. And neither did Ben...it was the first time we've seen him not in control. That look on his face was just fantastic.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
oh, and where did he go to activate the smoke monster?
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
quote:
So why does he have to ask the hotel receptionist the year?
To establish the current date with the audience.

[Smile]
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
So why does he have to ask the hotel receptionist the year?
My guess is that inside the closet Ben is able to access some sort of portal that allows him to transport off the island but there is a time distortion he can't control.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:
To establish the current date with the audience.
but JUST to establish the current date with the audience? Would Lost do something so obvious, and unnecessary for the character, just for our sake? Or is there a legitimate reason for Ben to ask the date?

Rabbit, that was sort of what I was thinking.
 
Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
 
I think Ben in the Sahara is how he gets off the Island. I think he was pretending to be someone else. His coat was a Dharma coat with someone else name on it and he looked stunned to be there. I think that that series of flash forwards happens after the Oceanic 6 get off the island.

All of this, of course,happens before Saiyd.

Ben was not talking about Jacob. He was talking about Widmore when he mentions that someone changed the rules. The rules must be something like "you don't go after each other directly, like the kings in chess, and you don't threaten/kill family members."

msquared
 
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
I think Ben was way too surprised by Alex's death for the rules to simply be agreements between the sides. He was sure that they wouldn't kill her. There's already precedent for island rules working even off of the island (like Michael not being able to kill himself). Perhaps it's a similar rule that doesn't allow Ben to kill Whidmore. Whether there's a connection between Whidmore and Jacob or not, I do not believe that the "rules" are merely agreements the two sides have made.

--Mel
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
I wonder why Ben was dressed for arctic weather when he woke up in the Saharan desert. I think there is some sort of connection here with the dharma polar bear that was found in the desert.

quote:
but JUST to establish the current date with the audience? Would Lost do something so obvious, and unnecessary for the character, just for our sake?
Exactly, if they JUST wanted to establish the current date with the audience, they could have shown a calender on the desk or the date on a Newspaper or something. But by having Ben ask the question they were more or less establishing that Ben wasn't sure what year it was.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Do you think Ben was telling the truth when he told Sayid that Whidmore had killed Nadia? I mean, what motive would Whidmore have for killing Nadia? Ben on the other hand had lots of motive.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I think it's obvious Ben manipulated Sayid to end up working for him, and that was his plan all along with going out to Iraq. But I don't think he had Nadia killed. Though I couldn't tell you what Whidmore's motive was either. Maybe Whidmore is pissed that the 6 got off the island as well as wanting them to give him information about its location and is killing their loved ones as revenge or something. I mean, in getting off the island they must've killed a bunch of Whidmore's men right?
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by theCrowsWife:
I think Ben was way too surprised by Alex's death for the rules to simply be agreements between the sides. He was sure that they wouldn't kill her. There's already precedent for island rules working even off of the island (like Michael not being able to kill himself). Perhaps it's a similar rule that doesn't allow Ben to kill Whidmore. Whether there's a connection between Whidmore and Jacob or not, I do not believe that the "rules" are merely agreements the two sides have made.

--Mel

I think Ben really thought of her as his daughter despite the fact that, like he said, he stole her from an insane woman.

Whatever rules he thought would protect her didn't because she wasn't his biological daughter.

I'm going to guess that Penny isn't Whidmore's biological daughter either.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
That was a dynamite episode. I've been trying to think of some ideas of what is happening, but all I can say is "Wow!"

The biggest "wow" for me was that Ben apparently knows Widmore, and they are playing a game.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
I love how hardcore Ben is. That scene in the desert was cool.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
There are a few things I hadn't noticed about that episode while watching it, but I remember now.

Ben started the episode in Tunisia, the same place Charlotte and the archeological team found the polar bear skeleton with the Dharma tag. We already know that time distortion is important to the show. Time and space travel may also be related to what Ben and Charlotte did. Also, Ben was dressed for cold weather and polar bears obviously live in cold weather. It's possible, I think likely, that they came from the same place.

So, It may not be possible to travel directly from the Island to Tunisia. To get to Tunisia from the island, one would have to go to the Arctic first, and vise versa. That can explain how there are polar bears on the Island and remains of a polar bear in Tunisia. Polar bears, being the nearest living creature in the Arctic, could have been used for a test of time/space travel on a living animal, and would have been sent to both places.

Ben would use the ability to travel instantly through time and space to gain influence and information. This is why he is a preferred guest at the hotel, under an alias of course. Clearly He goes to Tunisia often, possibly in the current timeframe of the show, and travels the world from there, which explains his presence in Iraq. He might even be able to go to any time in Tunisia that he wants, within a restricted period from a time in the past few decades to centuries to the same time in the future.

Ben said that Hurley knows how to find Jacob's cabin. Ben and Hurley are apparently the only people capable of doing so. I believe that that the creators of Lost have said that Hurley is more consequential to the the show than is apparent.

Hurley does seem to have an ability to change the fortunes of people, even the very "course corrections" that the universe sets. That's his curse. But he only recognizes when fortunes change for the worse, not for the better. His presence on the plane may have been what saved so many people.

Hurley's problem is, he has no control over this power because it's so strong. He may really be to blame for the collapse of the deck, but not in the way he thinks.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
Reader, I like your thoughts on Hurley.

Also, the Arctic connection is interesting. My memory for all the hints they drop is not great, but I do remember some team in polar regions back in Season 2 or 3 sometime. I can't remember whether Penny was with them or if they were reporting to her, but presumably she was looking for the island or info about it, and it definitely wasn't in the tropics.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Please note that I said this

quote:
I wonder why Ben was dressed for arctic weather when he woke up in the Saharan desert. I think there is some sort of connection here with the dharma polar bear that was found in the desert.
The dharma polar bear in the desert was definitely this season, I believe it was the second episode. It was episode where they introduced the rescue team. Penny was not there, it was Charlotte.
 
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
 
I missed it. [Wall Bash]

Does anyone know where I can watch it online, without having to download anything?
 
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
Last year ABC's "Lost" page still allowed one to watch new episodes on the old player. Does it still?

I'm so highly amused that Widmore finally blurted out what everyone's been thinking: Ben has the creepiest peepers in the universe. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
You can watch all of Lost on ABC.com with their nice HD-streaming.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Please note that I said this

quote:
I wonder why Ben was dressed for arctic weather when he woke up in the Saharan desert. I think there is some sort of connection here with the dharma polar bear that was found in the desert.
The dharma polar bear in the desert was definitely this season, I believe it was the second episode. It was episode where they introduced the rescue team. Penny was not there, it was Charlotte.
Well, in that vain...please note that I said this even earlier!

quote:
Also, where Ben first landed in the Sahara...that's where the polar bear remains were found right?
I might not have spelled it out as well as you did, but I was going for the same thing. [Smile]

What Uprooted is talking about is, I think, the two men at the end of season 2 in the monitoring station that call Penny after the failsafe went off.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
I think the two men in the listening station were in Antarctica.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
Yeah, that's what I was talking about Strider, thanks -- and I was careful to say "polar regions" because I had no idea which pole. And the Reader, I'm not sure if you thought I missed your comment when you said "please note that I said this." I was actually trying to make another connection to what both you and Strider had mentioned. Clumsily, obviously.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
I'm the one being clumsy. I should have noted the connection you were trying to make.

I just looked over Lostpedia to make sure that the Listening Station was in Antarctica, and apparently the exact location was never established in the show. It could be the Arctic.

Though I swear I remember a screen caption in that episode that said "Antarctica" when showing the station.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
When Jack says "Bernard, got a minute?" are we supposed to assume that Jack knows that Bernard knows morse code, and Jack is telling him, "Be sure you're around when the message is sent."

Or is this part of some larger plot that hasn't yet been revealed?
 
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
 
A lot of questions have been answered, it seems. Actually, to be more specific, we've been given way more material to answer questions ourselves.

Charles Widmore was involved with the Dharma Initiative, and when Ben had the camp gassed, he started a war. Thinking back to the first season when Ethan Rom was this eerie, almost supernatural guy who was the only sentient being who didn't crash on the island, the scope has grown considerably.

That being said, the four-toed statue, Jacob, the nature of the island and the smoke monster are all mysteries that I care more about being solved. The supernatural elements intrigue me more than a flesh and blood power struggle.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
i was just rewatching the episode and when Ben wakes up in the Sahara, it seems like there's either steam rising from his body, or that he's surrounded by it or some sort of vapor.
 
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MEC:
Well, we found out that Tom was gay.

When they showed Rousseau, Alex, and Karl, my first thought was "Oh crap, they're going to kill Karl and Rousseau. Won't someone just F***ing kill Ben already?"

"Who kills Humperdink?!"

It seems likely that Ben is going to survive until the end. That said, he's a thoroughly rotten son-of-a-gun, and I can't help but hope he gets his comeuppance eventually.

He definitely drives the plot, though.
 
Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
 
Reader, I like what you said about Hurley too. I think there's more to him than meets the eye. So far it feels like everyone else has had a bigger part to play, and he's just the one left behind. For instance, when Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley are all taken to the other side of the island, Hurley is sent back. Why him? We don't know. But I think he has a bigger part to play.

Ben is ridiculous, but I like the idea that the gateway leads to the Arctic (or Antarctic, we don't know yet). That would explain the polar bears. But if Ben arrived in the exact spot that Charlotte was doing her research, why is it deserted? Surely something like a polar bear in the Sahara would trigger an investigation of some sort.

I think that Ben is going to get Sayid to kill Penny. Whether Sayid ends up doing this or not, I don't know, because I'm positive he's seen Desmond's picture of her and knows who she is. But, knowing that Sayid ends up working for Ben, he must have fulfilled some kind of job for him, so there is a distinct possibility that Ben convinces Sayid to kill Penny. I mean, if we know one thing about Ben, we know that he's good at manipulating people.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Originally posted by EmpSquared:
quote:
That being said, the four-toed statue, Jacob, the nature of the island and the smoke monster are all mysteries that I care more about being solved. The supernatural elements intrigue me more than a flesh and blood power struggle.
Not to be snarky, but there would be no power struggle without the supernatural. It's just as important to Lost. I happen to be enjoying the struggle, but we all get our fun from Lost in our own way. [Smile]

Originally posted by Evie3217:
quote:
I think that Ben is going to get Sayid to kill Penny. Whether Sayid ends up doing this or not, I don't know, because I'm positive he's seen Desmond's picture of her and knows who she is. But, knowing that Sayid ends up working for Ben, he must have fulfilled some kind of job for him, so there is a distinct possibility that Ben convinces Sayid to kill Penny. I mean, if we know one thing about Ben, we know that he's good at manipulating people.
I think that really hits it. We know that Sayid's motivation is vengeance for the murder of Nadia. If Charles Widmore really did have her murdered, as Ben claims, then Sayid could easily be manipulated to kill anyone. After all, if Nadia is dead, then Sayid would think he has nothing left to live for.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I give Sayid more credit than that. I don't think Sayid would kill an innocent person just to get back at Whidmore. And maybe if he didn't know the person was innocent, and was deceived by Ben, he might make that kind of kill...but with Penny, he knows what she looks like and would most likely realize who it is.

My hope is that if that situation does occur, he wouldn't kill her, and that the two of them end up teaming up to find the island. Part of me assumes(maybe an unwise assumption) that the off island folk will eventually get together to get back to the island, or at least try to.

Or if my one guess from somewhere earlier in this thread is correct, that two of that group get back to the island(maybe Jack and Kate), but get there too early in the timeline and end up being the two bodies that Jack finds in the cave in season 1.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
No Lost talk yet?

I was a bit disappointed at first with the episode, but I think it got better as it went along.

So Sawyer is alive and chose to stay on the Island. And Jack is aware of his relationship to Claire. It's not looking good for Claire's prospects of being alive. Or is it? Where is she now? What exactly IS Christian Shepard's connection to the Island?

We see where Jack's addiction originates from. So what is Kate doing for Sawyer? Something to do with Sawyers child? Is Jack jealous because he feels like he's Kate's consolation prize after she couldn't have Sawyer?

Rose made a good point about Jack getting sick. Why did that happen?

Also, I was kind of shocked that Danielle was really dead, I was holding out some hope that she survived that shot....I can't believe we never had a Rousseau flashback. What a rip off.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Did any of you watch the minisodes before this season? The last one showed the island after the crash but before Jack woke up at the beginning of the pilot.

Vincent is running through the trees, and he runs up to Christian Shepherd, who sends him to wake Jack up.

So there's definitely a connection there.
 
Posted by kanelock (Member # 10982) on :
 
I am not so sure Danielle is dead. We know the Island can do amazing things, why not save her? It is possible that she is in a form of suspended animation. Unlike carl, who was shot directly in the chest, Danielle looked as though she was shot in the abdominal region. We can always hope.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
yeah, i was hoping, which is why i was shocked to see her buried in the ground.

I saw that minisode too Lisa.
 
Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
 
Unfortunately I can't watch the minisodes overseas, but I will as soon as I get back. I still don't believe that Christian Shepherd's alive. Although, who knows? It is the island, and that thing is crazy. But then, when Jack was trying to follow him in season one (and all the other seasons, but especially season one), why did Christian disappear. He's exactly like when Locke saw Walt. Or something like that. He was there, then he wasn't. Unless being brought back to life by the island gave him some super powers. But that just freaks me out. I don't think they would do that. Still, the question about Christian Shepherd is a prominent one.

Also I liked how they're filling in the gaps between the flash forwards. We see why Jack started taking drugs and drinking. But, now that we know that Sawyer is still alive, is that who Kate has to get back to? Or is it Aaron? Discuss.

What I really want to know is why Sawyer stayed on the island? It's obvious he has deep feelings for Kate, so why wouldn't he want to be with her? I did like, however, that Sawyer has taken over Charlie's job of taking care of Claire. He definitely has a soft spot for her. I like that. He's doing the whole big brother protective thing. It's a nice change for him.

One of my friends saw a commercial for this episode and it apparently said that one of the survivors dies. The last episode left us with a cliff hanger (as per usual). First of all, did anyone else see that commercial? And what do you think happened to Claire?

quote:

quote:
I think that Ben is going to get Sayid to kill Penny. Whether Sayid ends up doing this or not, I don't know, because I'm positive he's seen Desmond's picture of her and knows who she is. But, knowing that Sayid ends up working for Ben, he must have fulfilled some kind of job for him, so there is a distinct possibility that Ben convinces Sayid to kill Penny. I mean, if we know one thing about Ben, we know that he's good at manipulating people.
I think that really hits it. We know that Sayid's motivation is vengeance for the murder of Nadia. If Charles Widmore really did have her murdered, as Ben claims, then Sayid could easily be manipulated to kill anyone. After all, if Nadia is dead, then Sayid would think he has nothing left to live for.
Sayid is very angry about Nadia's death, as we can see, and we already know that Ben is an amazing manipulator. Ben can get basically anyone to do anything. And we've already seen Sayid kill a random person for Ben. Penny is connected to Widmore, and if Ben can convince Sayid that Penny and Widmore has something to do with Nadia's death, I'm pretty sure he would be willing to kill her. He was a torturer. He is capable of killing possibly innocent people. I wouldn't put it past him.

Edit to add: One of my friends just pointed this out to me. When Jack sees his father in the lobby of the hospital, he's fixing a smoke alarm. Could that possibly have anything to do with the smoke monster on the island? Also, is that what is appearing to Hurley as Charlie? And if so, does that mean that the smoke monster is sentient?

Man, I love this show.

[ May 02, 2008, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Evie3217 ]
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I think Christian Shepard has an interesting connection to the island, but I don't in any way think he's alive. At least not in any normal sense.

Also, I think Kate was referring to having to get back to Aaron, since Sawyer is on the Island and it'd be way too much of a leap in dialog and meaning to imply when she said that, she was talking about getting back to the island and not her child back home.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Kate may be making amends for Sawyer. I think it's possible that she made a promise to him to do something about the problems he caused. Though Sawyer was such scum that I doubt she could do much.

I think it's great that Sawyer has completely redeemed himself, even though he had to kill Anthony Cooper to do it. Now that he acts as a selfless protector, even to Miles, The Island could recognize his benevolence and he could become more important to it than before.

Christian Shepard was resurrected in some way by The Island. He isn't the alcoholic bear that was Jack's father, but is still the caring storyteller that was. It brought back his good qualities for an unknown reason.

Also, the fact that Libby appeared to Michael on the Freighter, and then Charlie appeared to Hurley at Santa Rosa makes me think that the Island "resurrects" people for a lot of reasons, and the Monster has a lot to do with it, though how it gets away from the island is a mystery.

quote:
One of my friends just pointed this out to me. When Jack sees his father in the lobby of the hospital, he's fixing a smoke alarm. Could that possibly have anything to do with the smoke monster on the island? Also, is that what is appearing to Hurley as Charlie? And if so, does that mean that the smoke monster is sentient?
That's subtlety. Are there other indicators that the Monster is hiding nearby?

After seeing the Mobisode with Christian, I think that Vincent is very important. He seems to act as a channel for something the Island wants to communicate. Christian couldn't wake up Jack, so he had to have Vincent do it.
 
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
 
Does anyone else think "you're not supposed to raise him" might not refer to Ethan, but to, well, the dead?...
 
Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
 
The only thing I can think about the "you're not supposed to raise him comment," and something that's been bugging me since we learned that Kate is raising Aaron, is what the psychic told Claire about the baby. He told her that only she could raise the baby or things would go wrong. What happened to that? Kate is raising Aaron, so does that mean that he is somewhat corrupted?

I like the idea of Vincent playing a role on the island. He does seem to be more aware of things than everyone else. It's like the island speaks to him. If only we could figure out what's going on there. But sadly, unless the island becomes ridiculous, dog's can't talk. Well, not yet.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
Remind me when they are supposed to wrap up the series again -- is it one or two more seasons?
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
2 more seasons after this one.

and Sterling, that's a neat idea. Even the way Hurley asks it, "do you think that means Aaron?"

So maybe it's not just Jack's dad appearing to him, but that he has a more active role in bringing his father back because of all the problems he's going through.

I still think it's probably more likely that that line refers to Aaron, but I like the idea.
 
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
 
I think it's also worth remembering that in the original "flash forward", at one point Jack refers to his father as if he were alive (something like "if he's less intoxicated than I am...") Admittedly Jack is pretty messed up at that point, and they were playing with our minds (not letting us know that we were flashing forward, not back), but still...

Aaron, right. I don't know why the name Ethan stuck in my mind.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
The discussion on Christian Shepherd seems even more salient now doesn't it. I still can't figure out the connection between Alpert and Jacob- Alpert seems to be involved in the raising of new leaders (like when he met Ben in the woods) and until this episode I thought Abbaddon was the most evil guy in the show (even more than Whidmore) but now I'm not sure.

I think the move of the island could explain the Arctic/Tunisia connection. And they don't specify if they move through time or space (my best guess is both- explaining things like the Black Rock, maybe even Adam and Eve). Maybe the Black Rock was a recent addition to the island- during its last move through time, the ship crashed and that's how Whidmore knew to buy the log of the ship. [Confused]

I loved the moment between Hurley and Ben about sharing the candy bar. And Ben (who's probably my favorite character) saying that his time of leadership was over- made me quite sad.

One last thing- I don't think Claire is dead, maybe she will die later on but we don't know that yet. Maybe she just stays on the island in the cabin with her father, I don't know. That's why Jack can't look at Aaron maybe- because he thinks of Claire and how she's with her/his dad whom Jack hates. The only reason she seems different was just her sort of dazed happy look.

Great episode. I feel like we're really getting a LOT of new material lately.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
Considering Abbaddon means either "The Abyss" or "The King of the Abyss", I think the writers intend for us to view him as a bad guy. Whether he is or not, that's an interesting new wrinkle from last night!

I had this very bad moment last night when Ben and Hurley were sitting there at the end, and I thought to myself, "Oh no! The island is going to tell John that the only way to save the island is to sacrifice Hurley! That's why Hurley came along!"

I can't tell you how how happy I was to be wrong about that! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
 
I thought Claire being in the shack with Jack's dad proved that she was dead.

msquared
 
Posted by JoeH (Member # 5958) on :
 
My brain almost exploded trying to process everything in that last episode. I think Christian and Claire are both dead, but have been "resurrected" by the island.
 
Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
 
I think people get "resurrected" by the island to help it communicate with living people. They don't stay alive.

msquared
 
Posted by kanelock (Member # 10982) on :
 
I don't think Claire is dead. She was most likely shown the truth about the island, or that was not really her and she is really somewhere else. What about the reveal that the others were after Locke from the time he was born!!!
I find, after shows like last night, that Ben is becoming one of my favorite characters on the show. He is so complex.
I also believe that the "Charlie" and "Christian" that we see off the island is really the Black Cloud. I think jacob is using it to try to get the people to return to the island. we shall see.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by kanelock:
I also believe that the "Charlie" and "Christian" that we see off the island is really the Black Cloud.

Considering Christian caused issues with the smoke detector in the hospital, I think that's a plausible theory.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Why didn't Locke recognize Richard? Remember when he faced down Ben in front of the Others, and they listened to him, rather than to Ben? Richard was there then.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Great interview with Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse.
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
I don't think I've seen this anywhere, which kind of surprises me, but am I the only one who thinks that Richard Alpert is dead?
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
It seems to me that Locke is some kind of prophet. I couldn't be sure about that before. I thought he was deluded, but when Richard visited Locke as a young boy, there was a crude drawing of a black cloud attacking a stick figure. I think the drawing was tacked to the wall. And then there was the game.

Locke's possible father (Emily's boyfriend) was called only "him," as Jacob was at first. That allusion can't be accidental.

quote:
Why didn't Locke recognize Richard? Remember when he faced down Ben in front of the Others, and they listened to him, rather than to Ben? Richard was there then.
Locke only saw Alpert once, as far as we know, and because he was a little boy, he may not remember what Alpert looks like. He should recognize the name, but I don't know if his name was ever mentioned in Locke's presence during the scene you mention.

I agree with kanelock. The others' being after Locke his whole life is a big reveal. He really has been a lost soul, avoiding his destiny.

Whatever Christian's state is (resurrected, in my opinion), Claire doesn't share it. I think she's alive and well, and still bruised from her house explosion. In between when the house was attacked and when she left Sawyer's group, she still cared for Aaron and interacted normally with other people. Christian couldn't, or didn't want to, interact normally. His interactions with people on the Island were cryptic, until he was in Jacob's cabin. That probably has something to do with the cabin.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
As for Richard.
Could it be possible that only we see Richard as he appears? Perhaps he looks like other people to the Losties, and that is why they don't seem surprised to see him?
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
Are Richard Alpert and Abbadon on the same team? I can't remember much about Abbadon, just that he was in some scene where he appeared rather menacing, as I recall interacting with one of the women who was on the crew of Whidmore's ship -- am I wrong?

Why was it wrong for Locke as a child to choose the knife? Alpert didn't want him to choose violence? He certainly showed up on the island with a set of knives and the island wanted him anyway, apparently. And he couldn't become the "chosen one" until he killed his father, or had Sawyer do it at Richard's suggestion.

What's the significance of the marks on Hurley's shirt? They're similar to the mark on Locke's face.

Like many others have said previously, I can't help thinking about the psychic's admonition to Claire to be sure no one else raised her child.

That's a good point about Christian setting off the smoke detector.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
One of the things that puzzles me is, though the psychic said that Claire needed to raise her own child, in another episode, he freely admitted that he's a fraud. So which do we believe?

Maybe the knife didn't "already" belong to Locke - it was something he wasn't ready for yet, and by taking it before it was already his he was showing that he was not ready.

Abbadon shows up at the mental ward in the future, and he also gives instructions to Naomi. I have no theories about whether he's with or against any particular person or group.

Giving instructions to Naomi suggests he's on Whidmore's team, but sending Locke onto his walkabout quest seems to contradict that, since Locke is definitely against Whidmore.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Maybe he had ulterior motives for getting Locke to the island. Maybe Locke wasn't actually right or meant for the Island and by helping to bring him there it will hurt the Island and help Whidmore.

Having said that, I don't really believe it, I DO think Locke was meant for the Island.

So why did Locke pick the knife instead of the magazine? Was it for the same reason he went against the guidance counselor?

Uprooted, the magazine was some sort of mystery tale about a hidden island, seemed like an obvious thing(from our standpoint) to belong to Locke.

This may or may not be an obvious question, but is Cooper really Locke's father or not? If not, could it be Richard?

I don't think Richard is dead, and I don't think Claire is dead either, but I do wonder what happened to her after she woke up and saw Christian.

I agree the Locke reveal is a huge reveal. That was pretty unexpected.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
The question about Cooper being Locke's father, I always had doubts about that, because I thought the two were far too close in age. The actors are actually only 8 years apart. Now that we know Locke's father is much older than his mother (I think something along those lines was said?) it simply strains at believability to think he really is Locke's father - unless he's got the Richard Syndrome. [Smile]
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
The father was roughly twice the age of the mother, which I guess would put him in his early to mid thirties at the time of Locke's birth.

If it is Richard it would explain why he helps him out against Ben on the Island, and why he tries again when Locke is a teenager.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Oh, also, I completely forgot to mention another important connection/reveal. Locke was born in his mother's sixth month of pregnancy. She lived though.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
Uprooted, the magazine was some sort of mystery tale about a hidden island, seemed like an obvious thing(from our standpoint) to belong to Locke.

This may or may not be an obvious question, but is Cooper really Locke's father or not? If not, could it be Richard?


I wasn't really wondering about the magazine -- it did have an obvious connection to Locke and the story line. However, Richard didn't seem to react as much to Locke's not taking that, while he reacted strongly against his choosing the knife.

I wondered the same things about Cooper, but we do know that the kidney was a match.

But those marks on Hurley's shirt . . .?
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Interesting!
An Amazon list of "Lost" literature. (Sy that ten times fast.) I was looking for a different list I had found, but in the meantime, here is this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Literature-of-quot-LOST/lm/R1HJWB3DL4YOCF
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
The other thing I keep thinking about . . . in one of the flash forwards Jack tells Kate that they'd made a mistake, that they never should have left the island (she tells him he's wrong). And I don't remember whether it was before or after that in time that Hurley told Jack that he was wrong to have gone with Locke on the island, that he should have stayed with Jack.

I wonder if any of them know what they're talking about?
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Another:
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Literary_works
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:
The other thing I keep thinking about . . . in one of the flash forwards Jack tells Kate that they'd made a mistake, that they never should have left the island (she tells him he's wrong). And I don't remember whether it was before or after that in time that Hurley told Jack that he was wrong to have gone with Locke on the island, that he should have stayed with Jack.

I wonder if any of them know what they're talking about?

Hurley tells that to Jack way before Jack has that conversation with Kate. I assume that conversation with Hurley happens even before this most recent episode in the timeline(the jack and kate one), as that episode showed the beginnings of Jack's pill popping and drinking, and when Hurley told Jack that he should've stayed with him, jack was still sober.

I think in time Jack comes to believe they should've never left the island.

Also, Hurley saying he should've stayed with Jack doesn't contradict or invalidate Jack coming to realize they should've never left the island. The statements aren't opposites or anything.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
from lostpedia:

quote:
The test given to young Locke by Richard Alpert strongly resembles the Tibetan Buddhist ritual used to confirm a reincarnated tulku (the Dalai Lama being the most widely known).

* The Book in the test is the Ba'hai Book of Law


 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
They are not necessarily contradictory, but what split the group was Jack's conviction that they needed to do everything they could to leave the island vs. Locke's desire to stay on the island, learn its secrets, and oppose the group from the ship. So in a way, I took Hurley's statement to mean that Locke's idea was wrong and, by extension, that Jack's was right. Not that things turned out so well for him, so I guess that doesn't really make any sense.

I was also struck by Locke's high school self vehemently opposing the idea that he should be a scientist in light of that early Jack/Locke flashback episode "Man of Sciece, Man of Faith."
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Hurley doesn't think that things have turned out so well for him either. He thinks the Oceanic Six are dead. If he decides to go back, then he'll probably have to regain his sanity, or else believe that he is trying to get into heaven.

Abbadon was encouraging Locke to go back on the path he had abandoned. A walkabout can't be accomplished without violent self-reliance. That was apparently the path that Alpert was disappointed to see him take. Abbadon and Alpert represent opposing forces trying to control Locke's destiny.
 
Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
 
Personally I think Abaddon and his team are distinctly NOT affiliated with Whidmore. In Abaddon's meeting with Naomi, he tells her that the team she is protecting (Lupidas, Lewis, Miles, and Faraday) was hand-picked, likewise she was handpicked to protect them. What is the point of bringing a super-mercenary like she is presented as when they have Martin Kimi's (spelling, I know) group of crazy Sudanese mercs?

Then, in the last episode, and for the past few episodes, the research team and Lupidas seem genuinely interested in protecting the well-being of the Losties, even to the point of arguing with Kimi and getting a doc killed over it. So I find it hard to believe that Abaddon's crew is working with Whidmore. I think there is Whidmore's boat, Whidmore's Sudanese Mercs, and Abaddon's Crew. I wouldn't be surprised if, on the island, Kimi's crew dies, Abaddon's crew gets marooned, and the oceanic six escape to the freighter whose engines Michael fixes. Then either Mike/Desmond die, or get off-island under the radar, or get back to the island.
 
Posted by Xann. (Member # 11482) on :
 
Well, i was thinking, when locke picked the knife, isn't that the only object that wasn't science related.

the others were science fiction, compass, a book of laws, and i don't know the rest can anyone fill them in?
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
I thought this was interesting. I typed "Who is Abaddon" and this came up:

http://www.geocities.com/christian_crusade/abaddon.html

"Revelation 9: 1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:
Abbadon was encouraging Locke to go back on the path he had abandoned. A walkabout can't be accomplished without violent self-reliance. That was apparently the path that Alpert was disappointed to see him take. Abbadon and Alpert represent opposing forces trying to control Locke's destiny.
I like that, I'm gonna run with some thoughts...

Okay, now you said "violent self-reliance" but given what's transpired on the show, you could also just say "self reliance". Abbadon and Alpert both helped Locke in different ways. How has Alpert helped Locke? Alpert gave Locke the information on Sawyer so that Locke could manipulate Sawyer into committing the violent act that Locke himself couldn't do. Not doing away with violence, but getting someone else to do it for you.

Locke manipulated Hurley into going with them, and Ben even commented about it, and also separately commented about it being time for a new leader to take his place.

But if Richard is working in the best interest of the Island, why is it important to groom a leader who can manipulate? Why would whatever force that is behind the Island want a manipulative personality in control? And wasn't there a reason many of The Others(Richard included) weren't happy with Ben and his leadership anymore? Shouldn't they want someone who will lead differently?

I like to think that Richard is a "good" character. Does this automatically make Abbadon a bad character? Who is he connected with? What does he want with the Island? Does he help Locke solely so next time Locke sees him he'll "owe him one". Maybe he's something like a shunned Other who's trying to get back to the Island.

Also what is the relationship between self-reliance and manipulation on this show? Sawyer was a con man, manipulating people. Jack is super self-reliant. Ben is the master manipulator. Locke is moving from self-reliance to manipulation...I can probably go on.
 
Posted by kanelock (Member # 10982) on :
 
I had a thought about the first flash forward. It seems to me that they told us why, even though Jack was repeatedly flying the same route to and from Australia, he could not get back to the island. It's because the island was moved. Therefore the island is not in the same place. That also could explain why Widmore is looking for it, because it has been moved over the years.
 
Posted by kanelock (Member # 10982) on :
 
I had a thought about the first flash forward. It seems to me that they told us why, even though Jack was repeatedly flying the same route to and from Australia, he could not get back to the island. It's because the island was moved. Therefore the island is not in the same place. That also could explain why Widmore is looking for it, because it has been moved over the years.
 
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by kanelock:
I had a thought about the first flash forward. It seems to me that they told us why, even though Jack was repeatedly flying the same route to and from Australia, he could not get back to the island. It's because the island was moved. Therefore the island is not in the same place. That also could explain why Widmore is looking for it, because it has been moved over the years.

It's probably more accurate to say that Jack can't find the island because, if he's taking commercial flights, the plane would need to crash because I don't remember seeing any airports on the island.

And when he says move the island, does he mean move it physically? Or possibly move it through time?
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Originally posted by Strider:
quote:
But if Richard is working in the best interest of the Island, why is it important to groom a leader who can manipulate? Why would whatever force that is behind the Island want a manipulative personality in control? And wasn't there a reason many of The Others(Richard included) weren't happy with Ben and his leadership anymore? Shouldn't they want someone who will lead differently?
Manipulation by a leader is probably required, but should be used sparingly. The leader might have to manipulate in order to keep people from rebelling against the Island itself. In other matters, it isn't necessary. The ability to manipulate is also one of many talents that Alpert might be looking for anyway. Anyone who is good at it probably has many other good talents of leadership as well.

Hurley's presence was necessary to finding Jacob's cabin, so Locke couldn't let him leave. I think manipulation was justified in this instance. Locke didn't seem pleased that he had to sink to that anyway. Locke trusts people far more often than he manipulates them. Unlike Ben, Locke doesn't care to force others to his point of view. He wants people to see it his way through their own choice. I don't remember specifics, but I'm sure that he left the option of whether leave the beach with him or stay with Jack up to people.

By many accounts, Juliet's being the most well known, Ben was a tyrant who manipulated people because he didn't trust anyone. He didn't trust anyone because he believed everyone was there to serve the Island. Anyone who differed from him on this, which would be anyone who wanted to assert free-will on matters of Island politics, was a danger. He was convinced he was the Chosen One, and needed to maintain control on the belief that no one else could "commune" with the Island as he could.

quote:
I like to think that Richard is a "good" character. Does this automatically make Abbadon a bad character? Who is he connected with? What does he want with the Island? Does he help Locke solely so next time Locke sees him he'll "owe him one". Maybe he's something like a shunned Other who's trying to get back to the Island.
When Abaddon was introduced, it seemed clear that he was a lawyer working for Widmore. Now I have doubts. He might be ageless and mysterious like Alpert, and only doing work for Widmore right now because it fits his ends. Abaddon isn't automatically a bad character. His name is the first clue. According to that link from Elizabeth, the biblical Abaddon isn't evil, but a necessary destroyer. Something like Shiva is in Hinduism, I guess, though I doubt the comparison is strictly correct.

That raises this question: What does he want to destroy?
 
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
 
The theme of Locke wanting to be a hunter/warrior despite it not being his appropriate path has come up in the past. His inability to shoot someone in the flashback where he was living on the commune being a notable example. I think it's pretty clear that Locke isn't meant to be a warrior.

There's similar tests in a variety of cultures- does the boy tend toward finances or the arts, fighting or farming, scholarship or travel. I would hesitate to suggest the choices he made were as simple as "Locke is supposed to be a scientist." I think he chose seeds- farming, creation, fertility; the compass- travel, exploration, discovery; and the knife- hunting, struggling, fighting. I think he was supposed to choose the Book of Laws, not the comic (or the knife, which he actually chose.)

There's some suggestion that the "dead people" we've seen on the island are not at all what they seem to be; that the island is using the images of them for its own purposes. The vision of Ecko's brother even says something like "You talk to me as if I'm your brother." before the smoke kills him. The "visions" of Charlie and Boone, in particular, seem very un-like their "living" versions, and distinctly focused on convincing others to work toward the island's aims, whatever those might be.

And I very, very much disagree with those who think the island is a benevolent entity. It seems both ruthless and capricious in many of its "actions". Ben Linus may have been exactly the leader the island had in mind, up to a point. His failure may have been nothing more than failing to step out of the way when the island decided Locke should take the position. And it may have killed Alex, or at least allowed her to have been killed, in revenge. If someone takes a greater role in the island's plan, I don't think it will be because of their benevolence.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
OK, this is interesting. The Jehovah's Witnesses think of Abaddon as identified with Jesus. It is from Wikipedia, but hey...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon

"Many Biblical scholars believe Abaddon to be Satan or the antichrist[3][4][5][6]. Others have stated that he may be one of the lesser demons of hell, or even a dark angel.[7]One source, The Greater Key of Solomon by Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers, stated that Abaddon was powerful enough to be used by Moses as a way of invoking the terrible rains of the Plagues of Egypt.[7]. in many places, Abaddon is pictured as a human sized locust, and is known as the lord of pestilence. Jehovah's Witnesses originally also considered Abaddon a demon, but now identify him with Jesus.[8]

According to them, there are several proofs in favor of their concepts, including Revelation 20:1, which reads that "the angel with the key of the abyss and a large prison in his hand seized the dragon (Satan the Devil) and threw him down into the abyss, and closed it on him (Satan)", meaning that the 'angel of the key' had power and authority superior to that of the Devil himself. Therefore, from their standpoint, Abaddon, "the angel with the key of the abyss" (see Revelation 9:1,11) and "the ancient serpent", "the dragon", Satan the Devil, must not be both the same person.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Oooh, this is fun.
In this link:

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/abaddon.htm

The Abyss is referred to as a "spirit prison."

Perhaps the island is The Abyss? That would go with Sterling's "the island is not good" theory.

"he opened the shaft of the bottomless pit and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft."

The black smoke?

And here's another one:

"REVELATION 9:3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth; 4 they were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green growth or any tree, but only those of mankind who have not the seal of God upon their foreheads; 5 they were allowed to torture them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torture was like the torture of a scorpion, when it stings a man. 6 And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death will fly from them. (RSV)"
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
quote:
And I very, very much disagree with those who think the island is a benevolent entity. It seems both ruthless and capricious in many of its "actions". Ben Linus may have been exactly the leader the island had in mind, up to a point. His failure may have been nothing more than failing to step out of the way when the island decided Locke should take the position. And it may have killed Alex, or at least allowed her to have been killed, in revenge. If someone takes a greater role in the island's plan, I don't think it will be because of their benevolence.
I think that whether the Island is benevolent or malevolent is ambiguous right now. It heals people and seems to protect the innocent. I think the Island does that for its own ends, but we still don't know what those ends are.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Maybe the island is the key to the abyss, and people are trying to "open" it. The island wants to protect its secret or what have you, and develops a symbiotic rellationship with its inhabitants. Sometimes it is mutualism, sometimes it is parasitism, sometimes it is(inserted whatever the neutral relationship is here, but it is all a type of symbiosis. Maybe the island holds the key to the balance of things. Maybe the pregnancies not making it to term are a backlash from the fertility the island seems to create. The pregnancy goes to far in the creation side, so the death of the child balances that.

Sorry, rambling thoughts but the Abaddon idea got me going.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Someone on the DocArzt blog pointed out some of the similarities between Lost and Solaris. In Solaris (spoiler warning), there's a planet that creates simulcrums of people who are important to those who approach it.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
What is a simulcrum?
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
So I was browsing the Literary works connections from Elizabeth and was surprised by the amount of connections between Stephen King and Lost. He even has his own article:

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Stephen_King

The Dark Tower Connections are particularly interesting, not even plot points so much as stylistic and thematic elements.

Also, from this last episode. Do you think who's driving the car that hits Locke's mom is important?

Do you think it's possible that Ben is Locke's father? Or maybe even Jacob himself if Jacob turns out to be someone capable of taking actual human form and procreating?

Though I'm still rooting for Richard.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
LOST starts...

NOW.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Elizabeth:
What is a simulcrum?

It's a typo for simulacrum.
 
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
Since this episode was mostly just setting up the finale, it wasn't all that impressive on its own. I guess it did its job, though, because I'm very excited about the finale.

My guess is that many or most of the Losties make it to the freighter, but only six make it off before it explodes.

--Mel
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
but that would kill off everyone on the freighter, what would be the point of Jack trying to get back to the Island at that point?

I assume most of the Losties are still on the Island. But that we'll probably see at least one or two deaths in the finale.

So my theory about Jin being one of the dead bodies they need to explain away when the come back to civilization seems to be wrong. I guess they did just make it up to make it seem more plausible that not all of them lived through the ordeal.
 
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
I would say that Jack wants to get back to the island to find his sister, Claire. Since she's hanging out with Jacob and Christian, she won't end up on the freighter.

--Mel
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
I'm really liking the things they've done with the story this season, and it seems that they're setting things up for Season 5 to be very different. How much of Season 5 will be on the island? How much will be off? Will the remaining losties be allied with the others? What will the O6 be up to? And will their story be running in a separate timeline from what's happening on the island?

In last night's episode, I liked how the episode ended with a short scene showing every one of the major characters and their predicament. It was kind of like they were saying to us: "We've set up a chess board...bet you can't wait to see how this game is going to play out!"
 
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
 
So, I can't back this up at all, but I heard from my girlfriend that Emilie de Ravin (Claire) wants to do movies and such... so she might be disappearing for a little while.

So, when Jacob adopts the form of dead people, since he has to have them is there any part of them left in these images? Are they simply Jacob/Smoke monster looking like them, or have they been assimilated into Jacob/The Island/Smoke Monster2:Electric Boogaloo?
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
The weird thing is that Jack is with Sawyer. Sun and Jin are on the boat with Aaron. Hurley is with Locke and Ben. Kate isn't with any of them.

And yet Jack is one of the O6, and Sawyer isn't. Hurley is and Locke isn't. Sun and Aaron are, and neither Jin nor any of the others who took that raft ride with them are.

They're almost as dispersed as is humanly possible. How are they going to pull them into a group of 6 people, exclude the others, and get them off the island, all in a 2 hour ep?

Incidentally, was I the only one who wanted to cry when everyone was met by people at the base when the plane landed except for Kate? She looked so alone.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by EmpSquared:
So, I can't back this up at all, but I heard from my girlfriend that Emilie de Ravin (Claire) wants to do movies and such... so she might be disappearing for a little while.

So, when Jacob adopts the form of dead people, since he has to have them is there any part of them left in these images? Are they simply Jacob/Smoke monster looking like them, or have they been assimilated into Jacob/The Island/Smoke Monster2:Electric Boogaloo?

The horse. Ben's mother. Those are two instances of the phantoms not having any connection to the island. So my guess is that the phantoms are pulled from the minds of the people seeing them.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by EmpSquared:
So, I can't back this up at all, but I heard from my girlfriend that Emilie de Ravin (Claire) wants to do movies and such... so she might be disappearing for a little while.

So, when Jacob adopts the form of dead people, since he has to have them is there any part of them left in these images? Are they simply Jacob/Smoke monster looking like them, or have they been assimilated into Jacob/The Island/Smoke Monster2:Electric Boogaloo?

The horse. Ben's mother. Those are two instances of the phantoms not having any connection to the island. So my guess is that the phantoms are pulled from the minds of the people seeing them.
That used to be my interpretation too(still is i guess). But obviously Christian Shepard is the first one to break that mold. He's became way more prominent, and has even communicated now with people who never knew him before(most recently Locke, but also Vincent in that mobisode). Speaking for Jacob seems like a big deal too, why would Jacob not speak for himself?

I liked how they split everyone up too Lisa, should make things very interesting in the end. How much of who ended up being in the O6(btw, when did we start using this?) was proximity to the helicopter at the time of leaving, and how much was a predetermined choice or selection of who would leave and who would stay?
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
oh, also, The Orchid. That's the station from that orientation video that was released online only, with the rabbit. Interesting.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
The horse. Ben's mother. Those are two instances of the phantoms not having any connection to the island. So my guess is that the phantoms are pulled from the minds of the people seeing them.

That used to be my interpretation too(still is i guess). But obviously Christian Shepard is the first one to break that mold.
He doesn't really break it. The island could have pulled his image from Jack's mind and memories. It would then be able to use it at will.

quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
He's became way more prominent, and has even communicated now with people who never knew him before(most recently Locke, but also Vincent in that mobisode). Speaking for Jacob seems like a big deal too, why would Jacob not speak for himself?

Maybe Jacob doesn't want to be seen.

quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
I liked how they split everyone up too Lisa, should make things very interesting in the end. How much of who ended up being in the O6(btw, when did we start using this?)

I think I saw it on some or other site. Kristin, maybe. And I'm lazy.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
oh, also, The Orchid. That's the station from that orientation video that was released online only, with the rabbit. Interesting.

I'm guessing that they're going to tie this whole thing in with the Nero Wolfe books. Watch them go into the Orchid and have Fritz there, doing his gardening stuff.
 
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
 
I think I'd watch a series with just Hurley and Ben in it. Those two together crack me up.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Could the Orchid be like the Garden of Eden? It would make sense with the whole Abaddon thing.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tammy:
I think I'd watch a series with just Hurley and Ben in it. Those two together crack me up.

Lost Odd Couple? With Ben as Felix and Hurley as Oscar, of course, but without the temper.

They really are classic fodder for a buddy movie, though.
 
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Incidentally, was I the only one who wanted to cry when everyone was met by people at the base when the plane landed except for Kate? She looked so alone.

Sayid, too. And I teared up as well.

--Mel
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
I teared up when Hurley pulled Sayid over to his family. Not hard to make me tear up, though.

Poor Hugo and those numbers on his odometer.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
I like seeing Richard and the Natives back. I get the feeling that Keemy's team is overmatched. That's probably Ben's plan. He's counting on them to get him away from Keemy's team, even though they don't need him now. Because of his ability to manipulate people, Ben might have a plan involving Locke, who the natives do need.

Hurley and Ben have the chemistry of old friends. Hurley really can make friends with anyone, even when he knows its a bad idea.

That episode left me on my TV-watching toes. I can't wait to see how the O6 get back together.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
I was just looking through the Lostpedia theories page for this episode and was reminded that there was a lot of stuff that happened that wasn't just a setup for the finale.

Sun buys a controlling share of her father's company with her settlement money! How much did they get?

A poster on the theories page pointed out that the Kahana and The Black Rock have a lot of similarities.

Others have pointed out that Faraday has suddenly become a leader, and Keamy is developing into a layered character now.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
which reminds me, Faraday had the Orchid symbol in his notebook! How and why is it there? Has Faraday ever consciousness hopped?
 
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
which reminds me, Faraday had the Orchid symbol in his notebook! How and why is it there? Has Faraday ever consciousness hopped?

Possibly something to do with the fact that, the first time we see him, he's crying at the wreckage of 815 on the news before being picked for the team.

Or maybe he was crying because of a time loop, and the emotional reaction is from a subconscious memory residue?
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
"Sun buys a controlling share of her father's company with her settlement money! How much did they get?"

Now one of my top five moments in Lost history.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Also, is there an aerial map of the island that shows the location of everything?

(OK, that last sentence is so dumb I refuse to edit it. An aerial map that shows the location of everything! How brilliant!)
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Because I think I should back up myself, I have the link for the Lostpedia theories page: http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/There%27s_No_Place_Like_Home%2C_Part_1/Theories

The people on that site really are on top of things.

Edit: This is the third time I have tried to get the link to work. The url tags don't seem to be working for me.

[ May 17, 2008, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: The Reader ]
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
wow, so there is definitely a 7th passenger on the plane. When the Oceanic lady walks back from the cockpit she looks to her left and smiles at someone. At time 1:45 when the camera pans out as she's talking to the O6 you can see a shadowy figure sitting down on the right hand side of the screen, behind the lady in our field of vision.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
A 3-D map of the island made by a fan. Where would Orchid be?

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Lost_island_map_v3_3.png
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
It must be the station (labeled C4) on the eastern plateau, near The Black Rock. When Hurley, Locke, and Ben are going up the slope toward the station, the camera shot looks past them across the valley toward the western range. That station is on the western slope of the eastern plateau, so it is the only one in the position to be seen in such a way.

That is a great map.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
I didn't notice the 7th person, I don't know what that could be.

I don't think the Oceanic airline lady is in on any sort of deal to keep their island story to themselves. I think we're going to be in for some BIG surprised come Thursday night, but I just don't know what they are. Obviously.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
i have no idea who it is either...but i'm insanely curious. i mean the Losties were obviously talking freely right in front of whoever it is.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
Maybe Ben?
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Shawshank:
Maybe Ben?

If that were the case then Sayid wouldn't have been so surprised to see Ben off the Island.

I would guess Michael, and that the suicide article in Jack's future time line refers to him.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Juliette.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Michael's a good guess, but I wonder why they wouldn't just include him in the Oceanic 7?

Did he want to stay anonymous that badly? I mean, this would give him a chance to not have to hide his identity.
 
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 
I like Jack and Kate. When Jack said, "You want to go for a walk" and Kate understood. She didn't make him explain. She didn't kvetch. She knew that he meant, "I'm going to try to help some of our friends, do you want to come," and she answered in the affirmative.

Throw-away moments like that are worth a thousand speeches about love and friendship.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
Michael's a good guess, but I wonder why they wouldn't just include him in the Oceanic 7?

Did he want to stay anonymous that badly? I mean, this would give him a chance to not have to hide his identity.

I'm sure Kate wanted to stay anonymous pretty badly, but she apparently wasn't given that option. I wonder if the shady figure could be the "bad mojo" the co-pilot mentioned? Or is it just the fact that all of them were presumed dead and then found alive? Or something else we don't know about yet?
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
I found a youtube clip that shows the scene. I didn't see the shadowy person at first, but I remembered that I still have the episode on my DVR, so I watched that because I can see it easier. The person is on the same side of the plane as Sun, Kate, Aaron, and Sayid, close to the front. The person can be viewed from 0:19 to 0:23 in the clip, to Decker's right.

Could that be Matthew Abaddon? AFAIK, none of the six met or saw him before the Island, but Hurley would have recognized him in Santa Rosa during his post-Island treatment.

It might be Richard Alpert, too. He would be the best person to "represent" the six. He has the ability and resources to impersonate someone to make sure the six keep their stories straight.

Edit: It can't be Abaddon. He doesn't know the truth. He visited Hurley to pry that out of him, and was unsuccessful.
 
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
I must be blind or something because I totally don't see this mystery figure.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
it's hard to see in that clip. I went to abc.com where it's much better quality, put it in full screen mode. Also, watch her as she walks to the back of the plane, she definitely looks over and smiles at whoever it is.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
Yeah, I noticed her do that too while watching the show the other night, Strider, although I never noticed the figure and can't see it in the clip The Reader linked too. Don't know if I feel like going back to abc.com to watch, I'll take your word for it that it's there!

*completely unrelated side note: I've been living in the South too long. I really wanted to write "I'll take all of y'all's word for it" but that just feels too much like a Yankee faking it. For most of my life, "your" seemed like a suitably self-explanatory modifier.
 
Posted by kanelock (Member # 10982) on :
 
Season Finale tomorrow!!!!! And I just read on the guide on my tv that Walt is back tonight!!!!! Will it be in a flash forward? I can't wait!!!!
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
I work tomorrow morning which is nice- gives me something to do other than sit there and be like... Lost finale on tonight...Lost finale on tonight.

I called my roommate from school last Thursday to talk about the season finale coming on then. Then he told me the Grey's Anatomy finale was coming on. I almost wept.
 
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
 
I know spoilers are welcome, but should we post spoilers here if the episode hasn't aired yet? I wouldn't, personally.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
No. That would be evil.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Spoilers posted before the airing of an episode are worthy of punishment by the Smoke Monster itself.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
agreed. Also, I'd beware of any website that has anything to do with Lost in even the slightest way. There might be spoilers hidden in innocent looking places.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
It's like Harry Potter. It's time for a media shut-down.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
oh, about the guy in the plane. upon closer inspection i think it might just be a crew member. when they all get off the plane there's a guy in uniform standing at the bay and he's not one of two pilots. i assume that's the person she smiles at, unless there is yet another person on that plane we didn't see.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
OK, I'm watching the repeat from last weeks episode right now. Its been a while since I've been able to watch live. I've been watching via i-tunes.

Anyway, there are already some very important difference between the i-tunes version and the repeat they are showing tonight.

In the scene the press conference with the Ocean 6, Jack reveals the names of the 3 people who allegedly died on the Island, Boone, Libby and Charlie.

Sayid was also asked if he would be going to Iraq which isn't in the i-tunes version from last week.

Were these in last weeks episode and just missing from the itunes version or did it get added tonight.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
So of all the people who died on the Island, why Boone, Libby and Charlie?
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
That was not in the original airing of the episode. It was probably cut to make room for the episode of Grey's Anatomy that aired before it.

I missed that part of the re-airing.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
Before tonight "The Constant" was my all time favorite episode. This one at least ties, as far as I'm concerned. I was on the edge of my seat for lots of it, and it had some really great moments.

Locke: You killed everyone on the freighter!
Ben: So?
 
Posted by Xann. (Member # 11482) on :
 
octagonglobalrecruitment.com

It was a comercial before the last set of scenes, my girlfriend noticed it and wrote it down. It's some kind of dharma thingy.

also, great episode.... and jin better be alive, maybe he was moved by the island before temporal wave explosion and more nonsensicle statments.
 
Posted by RackhamsRazor (Member # 5254) on :
 
That was a pretty awesome episode
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
So what do you suppose is the significance of John Locke (philosopher credited with the idea of natural rights) becoming Jeremy Bentham (philospher note for Utilitarianism and rejection of natural rights).
 
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
*embarrassed* Oh, is that who that was? I knew when the camera panned over the casket there would be a big reveal, but I didn't recognize him at all.

I think I'll just slink back into the woodwork, now.

--Mel
 
Posted by TrapperKeeper (Member # 7680) on :
 
Rabbit, my guess would be that originally in the show John Locke was more of a free spirit, meaning that he didnt believe in fate or destiny. Then later in the show he has accepted that he has a destiny on the island, or a fate or a purpose that he must fulfill no matter what.

John Locke=Natural rights=free to do whatever
Jeremy Bentham=Rejection of natural rights/utilitarianism=accepting his role even though he may not want to.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Hmm...the wiki on Jeremy Bentham doesn't seem to agree with Rabbit and TK's summation of Bentham's philosophy:

quote:
Bentham's ambition in life was to create a "Pannomion", a complete Utilitarian code of law. Bentham not only proposed many legal and social reforms, but also expounded an underlying moral principle on which they should be based. This philosophy, utilitarianism, argued that the right act or policy was that which would cause "the greatest happiness of the greatest number" — a phrase of which he is generally, though erroneously, regarded as the author — though he later dropped the second qualification and embraced what he called "the greatest happiness principle," often referred to as the principle of utility.

 
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
If there is significance to choosing "Jeremy Bentham" as his name, I'd bet it is because he has now taken the leadership role from Ben and has to do things for "the greater good". Whereas old school Locke might have been unwilling to kill someone like when he was asked to kill his father (they have a natural right to life), the new Locke is probably willing to kill someone for the greater good of the island's safety. The latter approach is more consistent with Bentham's utilitarian philosophy.

Ben was extremely utilitarian - he was willing to do any seemingly immoral thing if he thought it would achieve the greater good of protecting the island and the others.
 
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
 
I swear, I'd shamelessly follow this crazy roller coaster ride of a show anywhere. I love it.

They give Hurley and Ben the most perfect lines. I loved it when Sawyer asked Hurley what they were up to or what they were talking about and he replied "leader stuff".

I'm trying to remember what Ben said that cracked me up when he was in the Orchid with John. My daughter thinks that Ben would be perfect in a thriller, his face just creeps her out.

Did you see the two alternate endings? I'm just confused on how they would have used those two in the coffin. I really can't see why Kate would flip out about going to their funerals. She would have definitely went to Sawyer's, and I see no reason for her to not go to Desmond's.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
Tammy was it:

John: "Is he talking about what I think he's talking about?"

Ben: "If you mean time traveling bunnies, then yes."
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
Hurley: Checkmate, Mr. Eko.
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tammy:

Did you see the two alternate endings? I'm just confused on how they would have used those two in the coffin. I really can't see why Kate would flip out about going to their funerals. She would have definitely went to Sawyer's, and I see no reason for her to not go to Desmond's.

I have not, do you have a link to it?

quote:
Originally posted by Tresopax:
Ben was extremely utilitarian - he was willing to do any seemingly immoral thing if he thought it would achieve the greater good of protecting the island and the others.

I'd say Ben is more of an Ethical Egoist, he killed everyone one the freighter, just so he could get revenge. He tried to "claim" Juliet, sending the man she was having an affair with to death in the process. There are probably more examples, but those two jump to mind right away.

I'm glad that Keamy is dead, he killed too many good characters.

[ May 30, 2008, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: MEC ]
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
I'm not going to lie- if I saw the man who killed my daughter mocking that incident, I don't know if I would react any differently than Ben did.

*And I'm not even a parent
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Shawshank:
I'm not going to lie- if I saw the man who killed my daughter mocking that incident, I don't know if I would react any differently than Ben did.

*And I'm not even a parent

Would you then reply in apathy at the prospect of everyone dieing on the boat?

Not to mention she wasn't even his daughter, he stole her from the French woman.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
quote:

Not to mention she wasn't even his daughter, he stole her from the French woman.

You raise someone for 16 years as your own daughter, they are your daughter. Not saying Ben was right in kidnapping her, but he basically adopted her through vastly immoral methods.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
I bet that's how Keamy was able to kill her. If she'd been Ben's biological child, he wouldn't have been able to. But it'd been so long that Ben just assumed that she'd be as safe as he was.
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
Here's Adam from MythBusters' opinion on the explosion:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4266333.html?series=6

I thought the exact same thing about the bomb. I didn't know about the explosion bit though, in my mind I think it would have been cooler to see the explosion, then hear it.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
I don't think Keamie is necessarily gone.

I loved him. (I mean, I hated him, but he was still good. Reminded me of a human Terminator)
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
The name "Jeremy Bentham" rang a bell with me, and I finally figured out why. I've got an ancient "Ripley's Believe It Or Not" compilation that has an article about Bentham.

When Bentham died, he left his fortune to University College Hospital, with the condition that his corpse be preserved and dressed up, and always in attendance at board meetings.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a6/Jbentham.600px.jpg

So, there you have it - even though Locke is dead, he's still running things. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Hmm...the wiki on Jeremy Bentham doesn't seem to agree with Rabbit and TK's summation of Bentham's philosophy:

quote:
Bentham's ambition in life was to create a "Pannomion", a complete Utilitarian code of law. Bentham not only proposed many legal and social reforms, but also expounded an underlying moral principle on which they should be based. This philosophy, utilitarianism, argued that the right act or policy was that which would cause "the greatest happiness of the greatest number" — a phrase of which he is generally, though erroneously, regarded as the author — though he later dropped the second qualification and embraced what he called "the greatest happiness principle," often referred to as the principle of utility.

I said he was noted for utilitarianism which seems to agree perfectly. The wikipedia entry on Bentham also says directly that his opposition to natural rights is one of the things he is best known for.

Since all I said about him was that he was noted for contributions to Utilitarian ethics and rejection of the idea of natural rights I'm really hard pressed to see what it is that doesn't seem to agree with the wiki.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MEC:
Here's Adam from MythBusters' opinion on the explosion:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4266333.html?series=6

I thought the exact same thing about the bomb. I didn't know about the explosion bit though, in my mind I think it would have been cooler to see the explosion, then hear it.

I think given the relatively short distance between the plane and the helicopter, the difference in the time it took the light and sound from the explosion to reach the helicopter would have been imperceptible.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
The Island moved! That had me geeked out!

I think this is the first time that a current timelime has gone directly to a flashforward. Ben turned the Island's steering wheel, and was then sent to Tunisia.

I wonder how the storytelling will change. What were once flash-forwards are now the current time. Season Five might open with the Oceanic Six, Ben, and Locke's body returning, and then the journey between the funeral and the return being told in flashbacks, with flash-forwards revealing the fates of people.

Faraday had some people in the zodiac raft. They were off the Island when it moved. They may or may not have been taken in the temporal bubble with the Island. If not, then they are lost at sea.

Lapidus and Desmond were also on the Island right before the move. Are they also included in the group that Ben says has to return?
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
Faraday had some people in the zodiac raft. They were off the Island when it moved. They may or may not have been taken in the temporal bubble with the Island. If not, then they are lost at sea.
The zodiac could not be seen from the helicopter after the island moved so I'm assuming it went with the island.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Yeah, the helicopter and the raft were fairly close to each other. Faraday and the rest probably would have seen the helicopter go in and attempt a rescue.
 
Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
 
It is still possible Desomond will have to return since he played a key role on the island for so long. Lapidus wasn't an island inhabitant though so I'm not sure if he'll have to return.

I want to know how Locke gets off the island and how his corpse ends up in CA. And how did Jack know Locke's new identity to recognize the funeral notice?

So many new mysteries [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
My guess is that season 5 focus is mostly on the O6 and all of them realizing they have to go back as a group. Along with that is what happened on the island immediately after the events following the S4 finale.

My guess is that the S5 finale will end with the O6 + plus Bentham getting back onto the island, and we'll see a new level of devastation to the island. And then John Locke will be revived back to life.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
And how did Jack know Locke's new identity to recognize the funeral notice?
I think that one has already been answered. He (Locke/Bentham) had visited Jack, Hurley, Kate (and possibly Sayid).
 
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
After reviewing this thread, I now believe that Locke really did commit suicide, . His faith in the island was that strong. The only question now is why. But I think he died intentionally, believing the island could bring him back.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Reader:
I think this is the first time that a current timelime has gone directly to a flashforward. Ben turned the Island's steering wheel, and was then sent to Tunisia.

He fell right through the planet.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
I am beginning to think that the Island traveled through time, to the future. The whole point of the Orchid was time travel experimentation. This doesn't mean the Island didn't travel through space, as Ben did.

Space and time travel explain a lot of mysteries. If the Island can travel to the past (by turning the frozen donkey wheel counterclockwise) then it can aquire ruins and a colossal foot that don't look as old as they ought to be.

If it can travel far into the future then the Smoke Monster could be very advanced piece of technology built there, and brought back when it traveled to the past.

quote:
After reviewing this thread, I now believe that Locke really did commit suicide, . His faith in the island was that strong. The only question now is why. But I think he died intentionally, believing the island could bring him back.
I think he was probably in despair. He couldn't convince anyone to come back, and so the Island is doomed as far as he is concerned. If the Island is his life, and he can't save it, then he probably thinks that he has no choice. A major question is: does the Island treat suicides differently from other deaths?

Was it even a suicide? Maybe Widmore discovered Locke had survived the crash and left the Island. Locke's death would be a warning to the Oceanic Six, and Sayid is trying to protect them now. If this is the case, then the man waiting outside Santa Rosa was probably working for Widmore.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
I did a Google search of "Lapidus." The name is derived from Latin, "lapidas," meaning stone.

There was a Morris Lapidus who invented a weird hotel.

But the name is often interchanged with "Lepidus," which was a fairly common Roman name. However, one of the Lepidi ended up as part of the triumvirate with Octavian and Mark Anthony.

There are all kinds of Lepidi in that time period, but there was othing particularly significant, unless we know of Frank Lapidus's wife or children.

One of the things I have noticed about Frank Lapidus is his way of staying somehwat neutral, to save his skin, so perhaps he is waiting to see where the balance of power shifts.

Also, he has the most beautiful eyes!
 
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 
Is anyone else surprised the Island let him die? Even committing suicide is a bit of a job if the Island doesn't want you to. That Locke could die at all is fodder enough for another season.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Elizabeth:
I did a Google search of "Lapidus." The name is derived from Latin, "lapidas," meaning stone.

Not necessarily. There is a Jewish family name Lapidus which is derived from "lapidot" or "lapidos". Deborah the Judge was called "the wife of Lapidot", and some Jewish sources identify Lapidot with Barak. A lapid in Hebrew is a torch. Lapidos are torches.

Morris Lapidus, who you mentioned, was Jewish, and it's very unlikely that his name was derived from the Latin as you're suggesting.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
On aside, with all of the literary references, I keep expecting a character named something like "Andy Wiggins" to pop up.
 
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
I hadn't thought of that, Irami, but that's a good point.

In fact, it makes me wonder why it doesn't just let other people die. If the island can bring people back and control them (a la Christian Shephard or Eko's brother), couldn't it have done it with Michael?

Do you have to die with a certain attitude for the island to be able to use you?
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
The Medusa Spider might come back. Maybe Locke is just paralyzed.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
Don't remind me of the Nikki/Paulo episode.

That one never existed.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
I'd like to think that "Expose" never existed, but it did introduce the Medusa Spider. This is Lost and I can't help but think that that introduction wasn't incidental.
 
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
Wow. The Medusa spider is a great theory, and probably right.

I had come to post these three alternate ideas I'd come up with, but I think I like the Medusa spider better.

Here were the ideas anyway:

1. Locke killed himself because he believed the island could bring him back.

2. Locke killed hismelf because he was testing whether the island would save him, and it didn't. This may have been because the island knew it could bring him back, or because he betrayed the island.

3. Locke allowed someone to kill him, Obi-wan style. "Strike me down, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
The Medusa Spider only incapacitates for a short period of time. Locke was "dead" for longer than the time it would have taken him to wake up I think.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
The Medusa spider only paralyzes them for 1 hour. Remember at the end of the episode when Nikki's eyes opened right as they covered her face with the dirt?
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Shawshank:
The Medusa spider only paralyzes them for 1 hour. Remember at the end of the episode when Nikki's eyes opened right as they covered her face with the dirt?

Listen, Shawshank, I was all "Yeah, I'm with Shawhank, let's not ever remind ourselves of the Nikki/Paulo incident," and then you yourself reminded me of it!

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh.

I have had buried-alive nightmares since childhood.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I feel so neglected. [Razz]
 
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Shawshank:
The Medusa spider only paralyzes them for 1 hour. Remember at the end of the episode when Nikki's eyes opened right as they covered her face with the dirt?

Not only that, but if he's lying in a coffin in a funeral parlor, doesn't that mean the corpse has been processed in some way, shape or form? Meaning that an autopsy or an embalming process would have revealed paralysis as opposed to death?
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
Didn't the producers state somewhere that the medusa spiders were an "incarnation" of the smoke monster?

I gotta say, I really liked Expose - the last five seconds made the episode very memorable.
 
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
 
Sorry Elizabeth. It's my way of refuting that episode's impact on the rest of the show.
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
The Medusa Spider only incapacitates for a short period of time. Locke was "dead" for longer than the time it would have taken him to wake up I think.

Uh, yeah. I forgot about that. [Embarrassed]

I initially made the comment as a joke, and then took myself seriously.

It wasn't a very good joke. [Razz]
 
Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
 
Do we know if Locke died on the island or off? We know he visited the O6 (missed that the first time I watched) but we don't know if he remained on the mainland or went back to the island prior to his death. If he did die on the island then how did his body get back to LA?
 
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
Maybe Locke's not actually dead, and Jeremy Benthem is actually an incarnation of the island.
 
Posted by Jeorge (Member # 11524) on :
 
Well, this is the thread that moved me from lurker to poster, so I thought I'd just bring it to the top once more to say "farewell" to the thread.

Alas! No more Lost until next season. :-/
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Before this thread dies, I have some observations that I want to get out here.

Farday needed Desmond to be his constant. Desmond is gone, presumably for at oleast three years. Faraday will die very soon if Desmond doesn't return, and Faraday knows some things about the properties of the Island that few others know. I think that is more important than what has been indicated.

Because Lapidus is the only person on the Kahana to return to the world, there will be a lot of questions about him from inquiring people, like Charles Widmore and Matthew Abaddon. He is in mortal danger because he knows about Oceanic 815, and he isn't a celebrity. I think he'll have to return to the Island not only for his own safety, but also because he has been exposed to the Island's secrets. Desmond in the same situation, and may even be worse off because he carries properties from the Island. Also I don't think he has fulfilled the destiny that Mrs. Hawking predicted.

If Penny didn't know about the Island before, she does now, and she has to be part of the conspiracy. She has to use her significant resources to keep the Island a secret, and to protect the O6, Desmond, and Frank. On the other hand, she might also be working with her father to lead them into a trap. If this is true, then Ben becomes the good guy because he is protecting the O6, Frank, and Desmond. I love that irony.

The Survivors left on the Island have no option but to try to ally with the Natives. The success or failure of this option is probably one the "terrible things" that Locke warned about. There would probably be dissention among the ranks of both parties about this.

The Survivors would be split among the people who want to leave and those who want to join the Natives. Those who want to leave would risk exposing the Island.

The Natives would be split among those who believe that the Survivors should be accepted and those who think that they should be kicked off the Island. That option also leaves the Island vulnerable.

When Ben unleashed the Smoke Monster, he may have changed its nature. It's possible that it is now unstoppable and this would be another one the things that Locke told the O6. It might even be impersonating the mercenaries.
 
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
 
The way the other members of the Oceanic 6 talk about Bentham, it sounds as though his "suicide" was a cover for his being murdered. I suspect Whitmore's hand; either "going after" those he sees as Ben Linus' agents, or trying to kill the person he sees as key to Ben, not him, being in control of The Island.

For anyone who's still observing the thread, I'm curious as to opinions: is Hurley really crazy? Or has he just become a conduit for forces beyond his control? (Not that both isn't a possibility...)
 
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
 
Hurley has been able to communicate easily with his imaginary people, like Dave, Charlie, and Eko. For everyone else who has seen people, it has been like contacting a ghost. The contact is ephemeral and fleeting. What he perceives as a curse and mental illness is actually his ability, or abilities, that he doesn't know how to control.

Or maybe he has a mental illness that makes him a savant in the ability to use the island.
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
This seems too obvious, but maybe he's the only sane one, the only one who sees what's real.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
Dude. Hurley's always been the sanest one on the Island. And off.

Seriously, Everybody Loves Hugo, right?
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
To the point that it really irked me when Jack called him Hurley. I mean, even Sawyer calls him Hugo now.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Do any of the losties except Sawyer and Locke call him Hugo?

What did Sun call him when he comes to see her and the baby?

What did Sayid call him when he comes to break him out of the psychiatric hospital?
 
Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
 
I *think* Sun and Sayid called him Hurley. My daughter has worked her way through seasons one and two and we are in the middle of three. When she finishes we'll watch all the season 4 episodes I have on the DVR - which should be the whole thing. Its really really interesting watching season three having the answers season 4 gives us. Desmond's whole time travel episode - man.
 


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