I didn't want to disrupt the Obama thread with a response to this statement, so I've started a new Thread.
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: The Transformers are bigger than Jesus.
Perhaps it is because I am old enough to blaim the Transformers for introducing the idea of usings cartoons as an excuse to aire a 30 minute long advertisement for a pre-existing toy. Perhaps it is because I saw the transformers movie on an overfull, delayed airline flight (A bit redundent, eh?) Or perhaps its because I lack a Y chromosome.
But for whatever reason, I simply cannot understand the popularity of the transformers. Don't get me wrong, I understand the popularity of toys that can tranform from robots into other cool mechanical things. What I can't understand is how anyone on the planet can tolerate the cartoons, let alone how this was spun into a movie.
I mean, this is THE STUPIDEST science fiction premise ever. A god like super race of Robots that transform into cars, helicopters, trucks and stuff. Seriously.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I mean, this is THE STUPIDEST science fiction premise ever.
I've read far, far stupider.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Clearly, you were never an 8 year old boy.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Really? Give me some clues so I avoid them.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zalmoxis: Clearly, you were never an 8 year old boy.
Exactly.
It's a robot! And a car/plane/etc.! And they fight!
Really, what's not to love?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
If it helps any, I was making a joking reference to the famous Beatles comment. If confronted, I was planning on saying I meant physically bigger. There's no way Jesus is the size of a Volkswagon, let alone a Mack truck.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I mean, this is THE STUPIDEST science fiction premise ever. A god like super race of Robots that transform into cars, helicopters, trucks and stuff. Seriously.
A mysterious superbeing created everything and no one really knows for sure he exists because no one has ever seen him and he routinely threatens his creations with eternal suffering?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
How do you compare the stupidity of a concept like transforming cars to say, some form of teenage mutant ninja turtle, multi-coloured robots piloted by some kind of ranger, or people led by a captain with rings of environmental power? Best to let these things be.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I got the "bigger than Jesus" joke.
eros loses the thread.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:A mysterious superbeing created everything and no one really knows for sure he exists because no one has ever seen him and he routinely threatens his creations with eternal suffering?
1. This does not accurately describe any religious or science fiction premise I'm familiar with. Perhaps you could give a source?
2. I'd find your premise even stupider if the mysterious superbeing had the form of a mack truck.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
In fairness, Rabbit, a burning bush?
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
My recollection is that the Transformers didn't tranform into recognizable "brands" like Mack Trucks and Jeeps until after they came to earth and "scanned" these objects.
The idea that a race of robots could evolve is not too out-there and has been done many times. The idea that robots could mechanically reconfigure themselves to take on shapes optimized to different tasks is also not too out there, as far as science-fiction stories goes.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Isn't the basic premise of the traditional Christian deity that God -has- revealed himself to his servants? And that he wants his creations to choose him so they -won't- have eternal suffering?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:It's a robot! And a car/plane/etc.! And they fight!
Really, what's not to love?
The story line?
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: Isn't the basic premise of the traditional Christian deity that God -has- revealed himself to his servants? And that he wants his creations to choose him so they -won't- have eternal suffering?
Except, depending on the tradition, he has revealed himself to very few, especially in contemporary times. It's always a chosen one/few way back in the day.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:A mysterious superbeing created everything and no one really knows for sure he exists because no one has ever seen him and he routinely threatens his creations with eternal suffering?
1. This does not accurately describe any religious or science fiction premise I'm familiar with. Perhaps you could give a source?
It's not supposed to be an accurate representation, any more than "A god like super race of Robots that transform into cars, helicopters, trucks and stuff" is an accurate representation of the Transformers series.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Like said in the first post, I get the toys. What I don't get is why 8 year old boys would sit and watch this idiotic TV show instead of getting together with friends, fighting battles with their own transformer toys and making their own exploding sound effects.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:It's a robot! And a car/plane/etc.! And they fight!
Really, what's not to love?
The story line?
The story-line for the cartoons was about par for a kids TV show in that era. For the movie? Meh, it wasn't awful for a science-fiction blockbuster, but I did think the movie fell flat in several areas and I was, on the whole, disappointed.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
In the movie, one giant robot used a giant sword to stab another giant robot RIGHT IN HIS GIANT FACE.
win
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I, um, love Transformers.
*flees*
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: It's not supposed to be an accurate representation, any more than "A god like super race of Robots that transform into cars, helicopters, trucks and stuff" is an accurate representation of the Transformers series.
I admit, my familiarity with the transformers story line is limited to what I saw in the movie. I've never been able to watch more than about a minute of the cartoon. As best I can tell, the story line in the cartoon is basically irrelevant. Whats important is lots of robots, cars, planes, explosions, fighting and such.
Posted by cassv746 (Member # 11173) on :
quote:Originally posted by mackillian: I, um, love Transformers.
*flees*
Me too! They're making more of the cartoons also.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zalmoxis: Clearly, you were never an 8 year old boy.
As it happens, I JUST watched this movie for the first time this past weekend and while I was also definitely not an 8-year-old boy, my husband was and he even loved the Transformers cartoon and the original cartoon movie.
And actually, I liked the old stuff, even if I didn't love it like a little boy.
Both my husband and I agreed the recent movie was crap. What makes it worse is its absolutely unbelievable popularity. Even people who had never seen transformers as a child, girlfriends of mine, said it was a good movie.
The action sequences were difficult to follow and the plot was beyond stupid. I'm sorry, but I think the moment that clinched it for me was when the British blond chick who was working for the U.S. government made some EXTRAORDINARY leap in logic and claimed that because computers were getting hacked quickly there must be Transformers out there. (She said it differently, but that's basically the gist of what she said.) I mean, her mouth was moving and words were coming out...I can only assume that we were supposed to be too preoccupied with her cute blondeness to notice what those words actually were!
I'll stop now.
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
I'm watching the Transformers movie right now - I borrowed it from the library and figured (correctly) that my husband would love to watch it (again). Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I admit, my familiarity with the transformers story line is limited to what I saw in the movie. I've never been able to watch more than about a minute of the cartoon. As best I can tell, the story line in the cartoon is basically irrelevant. Whats important is lots of robots, cars, planes, explosions, fighting and such.
Given that the toys and the movie are based on the cartoon, and you've seen only "about a minute" of the cartoon, do you really feel you can draw any reasonable conclusions about how stupid the series may or may not be?
A pretty significant portion of the Transformers stories took place in a Marvel-published comic book as well.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Sounds like pretty much every action movie to me, except the humans aren't nearly as emotionally complex as robots.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: ... why 8 year old boys would sit and watch this idiotic TV show instead of getting together with friends, fighting battles ...
They can do both.
Even better is if they can get together with friends, fight battles, AND watch the TV show at the same time. The idea is to maximise the amount of time spent on Transformer related activities Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Meh, it wasn't awful for a science-fiction blockbuster, but I did think the movie fell flat in several areas and I was, on the whole, disappointed.
The story line for the movie was average in most respects but in my opinion it fell flat on its face because the basic premise of "alien superbeings that turn into cars" was just too far fetched for me to willfully suspend my disbelief. I can't imagine anyone who wasn't enamored of the cartoons as an 8 year old child thinking the story wasn't right out stupid.
As for the cartoon being par for its time -- we're talking about the cartoon that pioneered the whole era of creating cartoons to market toys. Was it the worst of that genre, probably not but it was the first so its not to hard to blame it for the very existence of the whole lame genre.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
It lost me when the transformers stumbled around the lawn, wrecking the place and making all kinds of noise, when they were supposed to be stealthily searching for an artifact necessary to save humanity and their race. I mean come on. These are robots that can transform into common vehicles. Why not just park on the freakin' street and wait?
It lost me again when one of the robot "peed" on a government agent with coolant.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:It's a robot! And a car/plane/etc.! And they fight!
Really, what's not to love?
The story line?
There's a story line?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Like said in the first post, I get the toys. What I don't get is why 8 year old boys would sit and watch this idiotic TV show instead of getting together with friends, fighting battles with their own transformer toys and making their own exploding sound effects.
So this thread is really about how you don't understand eight-year-old boys?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Given that the toys and the movie are based on the cartoon, and you've seen only "about a minute" of the cartoon, do you really feel you can draw any reasonable conclusions about how stupid the series may or may not be?
You've got your history backwards there. The cartoons were based on the toys, not vice versa.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:As for the cartoon being par for its time -- we're talking about the cartoon that pioneered the whole era of creating cartoons to market toys. Was it the worst of that genre, probably not but it was the first so its not to hard to blame it for the very existence of the whole lame genre.
Transformers - 1984 He-Man - 1983 GI Joe - First premiered in 1983, and later went into full production in 1985
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I admit, my familiarity with the transformers story line is limited to what I saw in the movie. I've never been able to watch more than about a minute of the cartoon. As best I can tell, the story line in the cartoon is basically irrelevant. Whats important is lots of robots, cars, planes, explosions, fighting and such.
Given that the toys and the movie are based on the cartoon, and you've seen only "about a minute" of the cartoon, do you really feel you can draw any reasonable conclusions about how stupid the series may or may not be?
A pretty significant portion of the Transformers stories took place in a Marvel-published comic book as well.
Then perhaps you can explain to me what's wrong with my summary of the premise behind the Transformers.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I'll repeat again that I was very disappointed that the transformations in the movie, when watched frame by frame, did not turn out to be mechanically feasible. It was a freakin' morph job.
Also, I believe the autobot lubricated on the G man.
I did like John Tunturro as the G man, though.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Frist, robots are awesome, especially ones that transform into other awesome things. The show is going to have that aura of awesomeness.
Second, it's not really science fiction. It's mythology of a sort. Mythology of this sort generally isn't all that plausible, but that's not the point. You need to accept some basic premises, outrageous as they may actually be, to get it.
It's not about plausibility and it is often not much about plot (this is often just a Maguffin). It's about themes. It symbolizes things that the audience can relate to and that they connect with.
Boys aren't looking for plaubile premises or well made plots. They are looking for things that are awesome and they are looking for stories whose themes and characters speak to them.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I'll repeat again that I was very disappointed that the transformations in the movie, when watched frame by frame, did not turn out to be mechanically feasible. It was a freakin' morph job.
The same thing happened on the old cartoon.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Like said in the first post, I get the toys. What I don't get is why 8 year old boys would sit and watch this idiotic TV show instead of getting together with friends, fighting battles with their own transformer toys and making their own exploding sound effects.
So this thread is really about how you don't understand eight-year-old boys?
Nail. Head. Hit.
Personally, I didn't have my own transformer toys, although I coveted them tremendously.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Frist, robots are awesome, especially ones that transform into other awesome things. The show is going to have that aura of awesomeness.
Second, it's not really science fiction. It's mythology of a sort. Mythology of this sort generally isn't all that plausible, but that's not the point. You need to accept some basic premises, outrageous as they may actually be, to get it.
It's not about plausibility and it is often not much about plot (this is often just a Maguffin). It's about themes. It symbolizes things that the audience can relate to and that they connect with.
Boys aren't looking for plaubile premises or well made plots. They are looking for things that are awesome and they are looking for stories whose themes and characters speak to them.
Then maybe they should have left it as a cartoon.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Like said in the first post, I get the toys. What I don't get is why 8 year old boys would sit and watch this idiotic TV show instead of getting together with friends, fighting battles with their own transformer toys and making their own exploding sound effects.
So this thread is really about how you don't understand eight-year-old boys?
No, I pretty much understand the mentality of 8 year old boys. Heck, I even pretty much understand why 2 year olds like Barnie.
But when 2 year olds get to be 8 year olds, they recognize how stupid Barnie is. We are never going to see someone try to make a blockbuster movie about Barnie or the Teletubbies hoping to bring in all the people who loved those shows as kids.
Well the premise behind Transformers is just out and out stupid. I recognize why that doesn't bother 8 year old boys. What I don't understand is why anyone would over the age of 8 could stand it.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
wow...this thread is pretty heated.
I watched transformers way past the age of 8. And while I didn't have any of my own transformer's toys, I also coveted them greatly.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Boys aren't looking for plaubile premises or well made plots. They are looking for things that are awesome and they are looking for stories whose themes and characters speak to them.
If you had left it at, boys (or children in general) don't care about the plot, themes and characters. They just like the awesome mechanical stuff and the basic good guys versus bad guys fighting stuff -- I'd understand.
But what are these themes and characters in Transformers? How is it that these themes and characters speak to little boys?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine:
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Frist, robots are awesome, especially ones that transform into other awesome things. The show is going to have that aura of awesomeness.
Second, it's not really science fiction. It's mythology of a sort. Mythology of this sort generally isn't all that plausible, but that's not the point. You need to accept some basic premises, outrageous as they may actually be, to get it.
It's not about plausibility and it is often not much about plot (this is often just a Maguffin). It's about themes. It symbolizes things that the audience can relate to and that they connect with.
Boys aren't looking for plaubile premises or well made plots. They are looking for things that are awesome and they are looking for stories whose themes and characters speak to them.
Then maybe they should have left it as a cartoon.
The premise of many, many movies fall into the same category. If you are only looking for entertainment that has realistic premises, you are going to have a severely limited range to look within.
There are types of stories that carry with it the implicit (and sometimes explicit) idea that "Hey, these are the things that are possible in this sotry. Just accept it and everything will go fine."
If you are going to impose hard science fiction constraints of plausibility on these stories, you aren't going to like them. Other peopel don't insist on this and acn enjoy them a great deal.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Then perhaps you can explain to me what's wrong with my summary of the premise behind the Transformers.
The basic plot summary (with possible errors, it's been a long time) of Transformers is: race of sentient machines evolve on the planet Cybertron. Two competing political factions, the Autobots and Decepticons, escalate their differences into a war that lasts millions of years. After so many years of war, the energy resources of Cybertron are finally dying out. The Decepticons discover Earth and, determined to harvest the resources for their own, mount an attack. The Autobots, determined to not let the Decepticons rape an inhabited planet, leap to Earth's defense. The cartoon's first season revolves around the various ploys attempted by the Decepticons to utilize the energy of the Earth and defeat the Autobots.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: How is it that these themes and characters speak to little boys?
Well, they normally use speakers in your TV or in some cases small little speakers in the toys themselves.
Which reminds me. There are both Captain Power *and* Captain Planet, never noticed that before.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Rabbit: It really seems like you're going on the offensive here. The implication seems to be that anyone over the age of eight who likes Transformers must be an idiot. If you don't understand the appeal, that's fine. But that doesn't mean you need to criticize those who do.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Then perhaps you can explain to me what's wrong with my summary of the premise behind the Transformers.
The basic plot summary (with possible errors, it's been a long time) of Transformers is: race of sentient machines evolve on the planet Cybertron. Two competing political factions, the Autobots and Decepticons, escalate their differences into a war that lasts millions of years. After so many years of war, the energy resources of Cybertron are finally dying out. The Decepticons discover Earth and, determined to harvest the resources for their own, mount an attack. The Autobots, determined to not let the Decepticons rape an inhabited planet, leap to Earth's defense. The cartoon's first season revolves around the various ploys attempted by the Decepticons to utilize the energy of the Earth and defeat the Autobots.
OK, but the basic premise is still that this race of godlike superbeings evolved in some distant time and place which are giant robots that can transform into cars and stuff. And I just find that to be the stupidest premise in any of the science fiction I've read or seen.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Rabbit, You don't understand the audience that you are talking about and, honestly, it doesn't look to me like you want to.
---
quote:If you had left it at, boys (or children in general) don't care about the plot, themes and characters. They just like the awesome mechanical stuff and the basic good guys versus bad guys fighting stuff -- I'd understand.
That's the sort of thinking that pumps out crap with "awesome" stuff packed into it and then wonders why it fails.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:Originally posted by Christine:
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Frist, robots are awesome, especially ones that transform into other awesome things. The show is going to have that aura of awesomeness.
Second, it's not really science fiction. It's mythology of a sort. Mythology of this sort generally isn't all that plausible, but that's not the point. You need to accept some basic premises, outrageous as they may actually be, to get it.
It's not about plausibility and it is often not much about plot (this is often just a Maguffin). It's about themes. It symbolizes things that the audience can relate to and that they connect with.
Boys aren't looking for plaubile premises or well made plots. They are looking for things that are awesome and they are looking for stories whose themes and characters speak to them.
Then maybe they should have left it as a cartoon.
The premise of many, many movies fall into the same category. If you are only looking for entertainment that has realistic premises, you are going to have a severely limited range to look within.
There are types of stories that carry with it the implicit (and sometimes explicit) idea that "Hey, these are the things that are possible in this sotry. Just accept it and everything will go fine."
If you are going to impose hard science fiction constraints of plausibility on these stories, you aren't going to like them. Other peopel don't insist on this and acn enjoy them a great deal.
I don't actually like hard scifi and I am perfectly willing to suspend some disbelief, but you have to give me SOMETHING. Let's take X-men for example (not the third one). It was very enjoyable to watch. Plausible...hell no! They throw in some mumbo jumbo about DNA and evolution but if you set that aside, you've got a great movie with some decent action about outcasts struggling for acceptance and about the fear people have of things that are different - more powerful.
Then you have Transformers. I couldn't even follow the action sequences. They were gibberish to me. I kept asking my husband what was going on and he said he wasn't sure either. The cool robots were overshadowed by the plight of some frankly uninteresting humans whose story lines got off to a very slow start. The writers never made me care and so I had nothing left to do but to complain about how stupid and awful the "science" was.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: ... transform into cars and stuff.
Cars, planes, electronics, insects, dinosaurs, animals, ...
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Like said in the first post, I get the toys. What I don't get is why 8 year old boys would sit and watch this idiotic TV show instead of getting together with friends, fighting battles with their own transformer toys and making their own exploding sound effects.
So this thread is really about how you don't understand eight-year-old boys?
Nail. Head. Hit.
Personally, I didn't have my own transformer toys, although I coveted them tremendously.
I frequently combined my transformers with my extensive GI Joe collection, and had epic battles between the two forces. Only the transformers could get GI Joe and Cobra to temporarily allign in battle. Of course Cobra would immedietly stab GI Joe in the back IF the transformers were vanquished that particular time.
When my family moved to Malaysia we had our own pool and jaccuzi, I turned the massive bubble system on in the jaccuzi, grabbed my amphibious GI Joe vehicles, and it was battle on the rapids of doom time.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:OK, but the basic premise is still that this race of godlike superbeings evolved in some distant time and place which are giant robots that can transform into cars and stuff. And I just find that to be the stupidest premise in any of the science fiction I've read or seen.
How are the Transformers godlike? They're more durable than people, sure: they're made of metal. But they routinely take damage, and they routinely die of it, and not just from other robots.
They do not transform into cars and stuff on Cybertron; they assume the forms of cars, trucks, etc. when they come to Earth.
Why are you so determined to hate this? It's pretty obvious that you have no rational basis for your apparent hatred of the series, given that you're ignorant of nearly all of the formative source material. How is the premise of Transformers any stupider than, say, Biker Mice from Mars? S.W.A.T. Cats? Jem & the Holograms? Gargoyles? Silverhawk? He-Man & the Masters of the Universe? Thundercats?
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
Never had the opportunity to play with Transformers toys when I was a child. Wish I had. Never have seen more than 5 minutes of the animated series, except for the animated movie. Didn’t like the graphic art one bit.
Seen the recent movie in a Theater, a 12 meter wide screen at least. The Visual FX were awesome! Wasn’t interested in the human characters, for the record.
A bit disappointed about the “morph” business pooka brought up earlier. But then, there was a whole cube, a few stories high, shrinking into a little one to be carried by hand. And not too much weight either. Some cool technology, I guess.
And also, a few funny scenes … who needs them? /sarcasm
All in all, I’m glad they did the movie, I could feel like the infamous “8 years old boys”.
At the end of the day, there are other mythologies that can look stupid when one grows older, yet some people get offended when you point out their inconsistencies. It is always your fault that you don’t get “the context” to be able to appreciate the true value of it all.
A.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: Rabbit: It really seems like you're going on the offensive here. The implication seems to be that anyone over the age of eight who likes Transformers must be an idiot. If you don't understand the appeal, that's fine. But that doesn't mean you need to criticize those who do.
Yeah, I'll admit it. I'm cranky. I'm thousands of miles away from my husband, I haven't seen him for 23 days and won't see him for another 23. I suppose its affecting my disposition and I'm taking it out on al Hatrackers who like Tranformers.
Its not fair.
But I still maintain that the premise is just stupid.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Of course it's stupid.
That doesn't mean it's not enjoyable.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Rabbit: And I maintain that that's just your opinion.
Edit: Actually, I like what Porter said better. A show can have a stupid premise and still be very enjoyable. And I'm sorry that you have to be away from your husband for so long. The longest I've had to be away from my wife was about three days, and I hated it.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:How is the premise of Transformers any stupider than, say, Biker Mice from Mars? S.W.A.T. Cats? Jem & the Holograms? Gargoyles? Silverhawk? He-Man & the Masters of the Universe? Thundercats?
I really can't say since I'm unfamiliar with any of them. Probably because they haven't been made into a full length movies yet.
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
quote: But when 2 year olds get to be 8 year olds, they recognize how stupid Barnie is. We are never going to see someone try to make a blockbuster movie about Barnie or the Teletubbies hoping to bring in all the people who loved those shows as kids.
That's because Barney and Teletubbies patronize their audience. Once you reach a certain age, you get tired of being talked down to. It would never sell to an Audience of adults for the same reason.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:I really can't say since I'm unfamiliar with any of them. Probably because they haven't been made into a full length movies yet.
Yet.
Oh, except for He-Man, which was made into a fantastically stupid movie in the '80s.
<—hypocrite
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:How is the premise of Transformers any stupider than, say, Biker Mice from Mars? S.W.A.T. Cats? Jem & the Holograms? Gargoyles? Silverhawk? He-Man & the Masters of the Universe? Thundercats?
I really can't say since I'm unfamiliar with any of them. Probably because they haven't been made into a full length movies yet.
Edit: sorry, missed the "full-length" part there, corrected to the live action He-Man movie.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:But when 2 year olds get to be 8 year olds, they recognize how stupid Barnie is. We are never going to see someone try to make a blockbuster movie about Barnie or the Teletubbies hoping to bring in all the people who loved those shows as kids.
Actually, there was a Barney Movie. I have grown to kind of like Barney. I guess you could call it Stockholm Syndrome. I know some people disagree with me on this board, but I really don't think there is anything insidious about Barney.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine:
quote:Originally posted by Zalmoxis: Clearly, you were never an 8 year old boy.
As it happens, I JUST watched this movie for the first time this past weekend and while I was also definitely not an 8-year-old boy, my husband was and he even loved the Transformers cartoon and the original cartoon movie.
And actually, I liked the old stuff, even if I didn't love it like a little boy.
Both my husband and I agreed the recent movie was crap. What makes it worse is its absolutely unbelievable popularity. Even people who had never seen transformers as a child, girlfriends of mine, said it was a good movie.
The action sequences were difficult to follow and the plot was beyond stupid. I'm sorry, but I think the moment that clinched it for me was when the British blond chick who was working for the U.S. government made some EXTRAORDINARY leap in logic and claimed that because computers were getting hacked quickly there must be Transformers out there. (She said it differently, but that's basically the gist of what she said.) I mean, her mouth was moving and words were coming out...I can only assume that we were supposed to be too preoccupied with her cute blondeness to notice what those words actually were!
I'll stop now.
She talked? I guess I didn't catch that. Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:And I just find that to be the stupidest premise in any of the science fiction I've read or seen.
And, as I've said twice before, looking at it as science fiction is the wrong way to look at it. It's like looking at Batman as noir mystery. Or science fiction as literary fiction.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
I liked it, but I wasn't really into them as a kid. I couldn't afford the toys, so I never really got into the cartoons.
Visually it was appealing. The CGI was great. It was a good way to waste a couple of hours.
It doesn't have to be believable for me to enjoy it.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Christine did a much better job of articulating what I mean when I've said the premise behind Transformers was just stupid.
All speculative fiction has aspects that are improbable and stretch the limits of belief. But good science fiction gives you a reason to suspend your disbelief. The example Christine gives of X-men illustrates the point. X-men isn't just about really awesome super powers and great special effects. The fantastical parts of the story become a vehicle for telling a story about real human problems of outcasts, fear and intolerance.
At the very least, a good fantasy should get inside my head. It should make me dream about what it would be like to live in a hobbit hole, feel the force, travel through time or explore the galaxy.
Frankly, the Transformers just doesn't succeed on any of those levels for me. It seems like the fantastical elements of the movie "robots transforming in to car, truck, planes etc" exist solely for awesome special effects.
Do people who like this story get into the fantasy of owning a car that could transform into a superpowerful robot? Do they relate to the robots?
What is there about this story that makes it any more than another Monster truck rally?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Christine, I didn't even see the recent movie because of what was in it. I wasn't taking issue with you criticizes it as poorly shot and/or written or just all around not good. I was just talking about the criticism that it wasn't good because the premise of robots that transform into things was implausible.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka:
quote:But when 2 year olds get to be 8 year olds, they recognize how stupid Barnie is. We are never going to see someone try to make a blockbuster movie about Barnie or the Teletubbies hoping to bring in all the people who loved those shows as kids.
Actually, there was a Barney Movie. I have grown to kind of like Barney. I guess you could call it Stockholm Syndrome. I know some people disagree with me on this board, but I really don't think there is anything insidious about Barney.
Was it a Barney movie made for 2 year olds, or a Barnie movie made for adults?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:All speculative fiction has aspects that are improbable and stretch the limits of belief. But good science fiction gives you a reason to suspend your disbelief.
I don't think anybody would claim that Transformers is good science fiction.
They just claim that it's fun. Or awesome.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
And the recent Transformers movie is not a good representation of Transformers as a whole. That was more like generic action movie #39 guest starring some Transformers.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Christine, I didn't even see the recent movie because of what was in it. I wasn't taking issue with you criticizes it as poorly shot and/or written or just all around not good. I was just talking about the criticism that it wasn't good because the premise of robots that transform into things was implausible.
Actually, I don't recall saying that robots transforming into things was implausible. I can suspend disbelief enough to buy that part. It's the ways the humans interacted with and grew to understand these new creatures in their midsts that I found implausible. It's hard to explain if you haven't seen the movie.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I don't think anybody would claim that Transformers is good science fiction.
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: And the recent Transformers movie is not a good representation of Transformers as a whole. That was more like generic action movie #39 guest starring some Transformers.
QFT
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Do people who like this story get into the fantasy of owning a car that could transform into a superpowerful robot?
Yes. I would also love it if my old jalopie would change into a new camero.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Do they relate to the robots?
Yes, I want a Roomba in the hopes it will become self aware and then we can fight!
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: What is there about this story that makes it any more than another Monster truck rally?
Nothing. That's the beauty of it. (to steal another line)
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:I I was just talking about the criticism that it wasn't good because the premise of robots that transform into things was implausible.
I never said it was bad because it was implausible. I said it was a stupid premise. I recognize that was a highly non-specific criticism. Science fiction is virtually by definition "implausible". Implausibility alone doesn't make a science fiction premise stupid. What constitutes a stupid idea in science fiction, at least by in my mind, is not just one that is implausible but one that serves no purpose beyond awesome special effects.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Rabbit, It's not meant to be treated as science fiction.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Rabbit, It's not meant to be treated as science fiction.
Then substitute the word "speculative" for "science".
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:They do not transform into cars and stuff on Cybertron; they assume the forms of cars, trucks, etc. when they come to Earth.
Actually, this is incorrect. Even the very first Transformers cartoon episode featured Autobots transforming into cars on Cybertron. They looks sort of like the concept cars from 70's-80's auto shows, but they were clearly cars with windshields and doors.
quote:Then substitute the word "speculative" for "science".
It's not meant to be treated as speculative fiction. I refer to you every post I've made in this thread, especially the first one.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP:
quote:They do not transform into cars and stuff on Cybertron; they assume the forms of cars, trucks, etc. when they come to Earth.
Actually, this is incorrect. Even the very first Transformers cartoon episode featured Autobots transforming into cars on Cybertron. They looks sort of like the concept cars from 70's-80's auto shows, but they were clearly cars with windshields and doors.
They're passenger vehicles, yes, but I was assuming Rabbit's objection was to them transforming into Earth-originated objects.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:They're passenger vehicles, yes, but I was assuming Rabbit's objection was to them transforming into Earth-originated objects.
I thought so too, but I already pointed out that they didn't do that until they came to earth, as I think other did too.
Posted by adfectio (Member # 11070) on :
To me, at least, Transformers was about the battle between good and evil. Sure, that may seem shallow, and the fact that it's between giant robots that transform into cars and trucks and the like is a little implausible. But it was still a good story to me. I'm working more off the cartoon, which is a lot different than the movie, but it still had a story. The new movie had some really bad acting, granted. I said from the beginning that Shia was not the right character. He did a good job, but I think they could have found somebody else to do it.
quote: I kept asking my husband what was going on and he said he wasn't sure either.
Are you sure this isn't just so he could watch the movie? More often than not that's how I respond when someone asks me a question in the middle of a movie, just because I hate talking during them.
quote: Biker Mice from Mars? S.W.A.T. Cats? Jem & the Holograms? Gargoyles? Silverhawk? He-Man & the Masters of the Universe? Thundercats?
I Had completely forgotten about the Biker Mice from mars! That was great! I've got the first volume of the Thundercats series, and really want to buy some He-Man volumes.
Oh wow how I miss the cartoons from my Childhood.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Second, it's not really science fiction. It's mythology of a sort. Mythology of this sort generally isn't all that plausible, but that's not the point. You need to accept some basic premises, outrageous as they may actually be, to get it.
I assume that this is the "first post" you were referring to Mr. Squicky.
The Lord of the Rings and Star Wars could also be better described as Mythology than as science fiction. Those stories give me a reason besides awesome special effects to accept some of the outrageous premises withing the story.
I understand the appeal of a story about the battle between good and evil. What I don't get is what robots that transform into other things adds to this story besides special effects.
It just seems to me that someone came up with these cool toys that could transform from being robots to being cars, planes and insects and other cool and then built this story to go around them as a marketing tool. No matter how you twist it, the story seems contrived because it is contrived. The fact that the characters can transform from cars into robots just doesn't add anything to the underlying story.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
This discussion made me think of the article I was reading in New Scientist about groups of robots functioning as shapeshifting colonial organisms.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:It just seems to me that someone came up with these cool toys that could transform from being robots to being cars, planes and insects and other cool and then built this story to go around them as a marketing tool.
Um, that's exactly what happened. If you don't want to see a movie with that lineage, don't go see Transformers. I didn't.
It's like complaining about the Bratz movie because it's a contrived story designed to sell toys which focuses on the unimportant concerns of shallow, beautiful teenage girls.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: […] The fact that the characters can transform from cars into robots just doesn't add anything to the underlying story.
If they were (flesh and blood) dinosaurs, it would explain their war and their ongoing search for energy a lot better.
A.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Seriously, Captain Planet fights against pollution. Captain Power had toys that could let you shoot at the TV during the shows, presumably aiding the characters therein.
I think contrived goes with the territory.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Damn Rabbit. What do you have against my inner 8 year old?
I LOVED Transformers as a kid. I had tons of the toys, I even loved the little McDonalds toys that transformed, especially the hotcakes that transformed into a pteradactyl. The show was good for an 8 year old I guess, but I loved and still love, the cartoon movie. It was a bit before my time, the movie I think came out the year I was born, but when I loved it, and the GI Joe movie, when I first saw them, and I continue to enjoy them today. I think the cartoon movie had a better plot than the live action movie, but there's always hope for the sequel!
I don't see how it's any less plausible than and other sci fi shows that are utterly ridiculous in their premise but we still accept because it's that genre, the genre where believability in OUR universe matters far less than believability in THEIR universe.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: It just seems to me that someone came up with these cool toys that could transform from being robots to being cars, planes and insects and other cool and then built this story to go around them as a marketing tool. No matter how you twist it, the story seems contrived because it is contrived. The fact that the characters can transform from cars into robots just doesn't add anything to the underlying story.
And?
I'm reminded of those stupid Apple Jacks commercials where the grown-up says, "But they don't taste like apples!" and the kids respond with something like "We don't care! We eat what we like."
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
I have not seen the movie.
Of course the story is a marketing tool -- most kids-oriented animated shows since the '80s have been.
And it's been a long time since I've seen any episodes so I have no doubt that the execution probably wasn't that great.
But here's what it is with the basic concept/storyline:
A. As has been mentioned what we have here is an epic struggle between good and evil. And the participants happen to be robots that transform into other forms as a way of camouflage and also a means of accomplishing something else (being able to travel quickly). And they are very powerful. The participants in this struggle then tend to face off in more gladiator style battle. For a young boy such an individualistic approach (yet they're still part of a team) is appealing.
B. It's a galactic struggle that then moves to earth -- that ties our mundane existence to something grander (and scarier).
C. Although the toys later strayed from this, as I recall, in the beginning most of the major characters looked like native products. This leads to an element of suspense for the humans who are drawn into the conflict (as well as the transformers). In fact, I'd say that the idea that everyday items of technology could be sentient robots in disguise is a fairly powerful conceit for an age in which the personal computer was just beginning to gain traction. The real acceleration of the digital age.
C-2: The transformer aspect also leads to some moments of the uncanny.
D. Like most television shows, what it really is is an ongoing soap opera that focuses on relationships and personalities. And although not painted in depth, the individual transformers did have personalities. For those of us who came of age, Optimus Prime is an example of a noble, self-sacrificing leader. A real hero.
The only Transformer I owned was Prowl. And I very much related to his personality.
I could probably come up with more if I rewatched the series. I'm sure I could also come up with a lot of criticism of the franchise (and again, all the above applies only to the original generation of toys and the first series). I'm not claiming that it's a major achievement in either science fiction or storytelling. But if I remember correctly, in my mind it was the third best-executed series (behind Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and the Voltron that featured the 5 lions).
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:The fact that the characters can transform from cars into robots just doesn't add anything to the underlying story.
The characters transforming into cars, etc. is the underlying story.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Re: Barney
I think they took into consideration that not many two year olds would get into a movie theater without a parent, so I think they put some effort into giving it something resembling a plot. But it was not rated PG-13 (which the Transformers movie was). So all in all, I'd say it was not meant for adults.
I see your point there. Everyone's taking you to task for not understanding 8 year old boys, but the movie was produced and marketed to an adult audience.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
She's not just talking about the live action movie though.
And I'd argue that it was marketed to everyone's inner 8 year old, if not actual 8 year olds.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I thought she was talking about the concept as a whole, not simply Transformers the movie.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote: Biker Mice from Mars? S.W.A.T. Cats? Jem & the Holograms? Gargoyles? Silverhawk? He-Man & the Masters of the Universe? Thundercats?
Sorry, couldn't keep those to myself. Carry on.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: I got the "bigger than Jesus" joke.
eros loses the thread.
Same, I expected someone to say immediately "Well, they kind are bigger than Jesus, have you seen Jesus carry passengers?"
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I admit, my familiarity with the transformers story line is limited to what I saw in the movie. I've never been able to watch more than about a minute of the cartoon. As best I can tell, the story line in the cartoon is basically irrelevant. Whats important is lots of robots, cars, planes, explosions, fighting and such.
Well, you see, that's the movie. If you watch the earlier cartoons and read the earlier comics, you come to understand the deep, underlying universal themes and recognize the Jungian archetypes typified by the
Okay, I knew I couldn't keep that up with a straight face.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zalmoxis: Clearly, you were never an 8 year old boy.
I'm pretty sure I was, once, and I never got the appeal either.
Oh, and at anybody trying to use this as a platform to slam religion. Seriously.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
Do you believe that religious ideas are rationally distinguishable from the human made fiction?
A.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Can we keep the religious heckling out of the big smashy robots thread, please?
I enjoyed the movie, and I didn't expect much more than big smashy robots. There were some humans involved, but they did more to get in the way, IMO. Most of the fantastically stupid decisions were made by humans in power. (Although, the robot peeing oil on the one human was pretty dumb.)
It was awesome the same way Indiana Jones is awesome. Indy's got some far-fetched plots, and no one gives him any guff, so why should we care so much about Transformers?
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
I read this
quote:A mysterious superbeing created everything and no one really knows for sure he exists because no one has ever seen him and he routinely threatens his creations with eternal suffering?
more as a tongue-in-cheek way of saying that any story can sound stupid if you choose to express it in the stupidest way possible. In fact, I believe we had a thread in the not too distant past that turned this concept into a game, thusly:
Smartass kid plays video-games, destroys planet.
(I assume the quoted text is what you were referring to. If it wasn't, I hope you'll correct me.)
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
Let's play a game where we try to think of recent movies that are worse than Transformers, a Michael Bayfilm film.
I'll start.
... ... ... ... ...
Bratz?
Where's the helpless shrug emoticon?
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
EDIT - Curse you, new page, for ruining my not-so-clever joke!
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
I still thought it was funny.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
When there are two rationally indistinguishable ideas, and we slam one, we slam the other. Stop slamming fiction! Seriously.
A.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
There's really no "we" here right now. You're the only one trying to do that. Erosomniac's statements, taken together, make it very clear what his point was.
As a fellow atheist, please, let this one go.
Edited for some spelling.
[ January 30, 2008, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Juxtapose ]
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:When there are two rationally indistinguishable ideas, and we slam one, we slam the other.
suminonA, If you can find no rational distinction between religion and speculative fiction, it demonstrates the severe limits on your rational abilities and nothing more.
Thank you Juxtapose. I've known many secularist, rationalist and atheists who find no need to dis religion at every possible juncture. Most who I know personally are very respectful of religion and the religious although they themselves do not believe.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
Now if we could just get back to tearing each other new ones over what REALLY matters....
Robots. Possibly with lasers. Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Big smashy robots!
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:It just seems to me that someone came up with these cool toys that could transform from being robots to being cars, planes and insects and other cool and then built this story to go around them as a marketing tool.
Um, that's exactly what happened. If you don't want to see a movie with that lineage, don't go see Transformers. I didn't.
I didn't go to see it either. It was shown on a nearly interminable plane flight.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Well, then I think you should sue for damages.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: There's really no "we" here right now. You're the only one trying to do that. Erosomniac's statements, taken together, make it very clear what his point was.
As a fellow atheist, please, let this one go.
Ok, I'm sorry. My bad.
A.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Well, then I think you should sue for damages.
How much do you think I could get? Would it be enough to pay the lawyer?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
No.
But don't let that deter you. It's the principle that matters!
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
You forget that I'm an engineer and we engineers are at heart very pragmatic people. We don't sue on principle.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
Rabbit, what kind of engineer are you?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I'm pretty sure that sometimes we do.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
There are exceptions to every rule.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
All rules have exceptions, except this one.
A.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by brojack17: Rabbit, what kind of engineer are you?
I am a scientist with a thin veneer of engineering. By degree and title, I'm a chemical engineer. In practice I'm much more of a chemist/physicist.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Personally, I didn't have my own transformer toys, although I coveted them tremendously.
We had several "generic" Transformers toys. I found it interesting to morph them; my brothers fought battles with them (and I think their cowboys and Indians might have taken sides too -- we only had 3 or 4 "Transformers"). The funny thing is that even though we had never seen the cartoon (we were only allowed to watch PBS and the Cosby Show), we knew the theme song.
I still think I win for being traumatized by an airline movie. When I was 16, a friend and I flew the red-eye to NY. One of the Indiana Jones movies was being shown. We did not pay for headphones, but every so often we would look up at the screen. Once, rats everywhere. Another time, snakes. And then there was something with falling boulders . . . . We stopped looking up!
Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
quote:I don't think anybody would claim that Transformers is good science fiction.
I would. Beast Wars is a Transformers series that aired 1999-2002 and was eminently watchable by both kids and adults. I actually interviewed one of the Story Editors, Larry DiTillio, who also was a Story Editor on Babylon 5.
It was a great show.
I like the 1984-1986 original series too, but that has a lot more nostalgia talking.
But in any event, it was real science fiction. There was a plot and everything. There was even emotional turmoil in many episodes, as well as more adult messages that were probably lost on the kids, like love stories and enviornmental awareness.
I haven't seen the recent movie, it looked like it was probably going to be rubbish, so I won't comment on that.
But the G1 show and especially Beast Wars were awesome.
Although the 1986 movie was WAAAAAAY too violent.
For anyone who saw the 1986 Transformers film, check out the Radio Play Parody done by Radio Free Cyberton (the now defunct Transformers Internet Radio show).
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
...does anyone who grew up with Transformers who never got an Optimus Prime still want an Optimus Prime?
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Yes.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Yes.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Indeed.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
suminonA, Thanks for being reasonable back there. I appreciate it, and I'm sure others do too.
quote:...does anyone who grew up with Transformers who never got an Optimus Prime still want an Optimus Prime?
Badly. Life-size, if possible. And power steering.
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
quote:But in any event, it was real science fiction. There was a plot and everything. There was even emotional turmoil in many episodes, as well as more adult messages that were probably lost on the kids, like love stories and enviornmental awareness.
None of these things -- plot, emotional turmoil, or adult messages -- make a thing real science fiction.
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
I dated a boy who had collected transformers for years, and we werne't allowed to touch any of them. I think he spent a hundred dollars on an Optimus Prime recently. I really wanted to play with them, but I was never allowed.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I didn't want to disrupt the Obama thread with a response to this statement, so I've started a new Thread.
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: The Transformers are bigger than Jesus.
Perhaps it is because I am old enough to blaim the Transformers for introducing the idea of usings cartoons as an excuse to aire a 30 minute long advertisement for a pre-existing toy. Perhaps it is because I saw the transformers movie on an overfull, delayed airline flight (A bit redundent, eh?) Or perhaps its because I lack a Y chromosome.
But for whatever reason, I simply cannot understand the popularity of the transformers. Don't get me wrong, I understand the popularity of toys that can tranform from robots into other cool mechanical things. What I can't understand is how anyone on the planet can tolerate the cartoons, let alone how this was spun into a movie.
I mean, this is THE STUPIDEST science fiction premise ever. A god like super race of Robots that transform into cars, helicopters, trucks and stuff. Seriously.
Your wrong...? Does that answer the question? When we were kids that cartoon was one of the best availiable on television, then when we were older and more demanding we got CGI with Beast Wars, and then the movie, I won't mention Beast Machines as apparently I'm the only human being on the planet who can tolerate the show.
Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
I actually had an Optimus Prime - which made my brother insanely jealous. I actually still have Bumblebee around somewhere.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by brojack17: Rabbit, what kind of engineer are you?
I am a scientist with a thin veneer of engineering. By degree and title, I'm a chemical engineer. In practice I'm much more of a chemist/physicist.
I thought you might have been a Mechanical Engineer and was turned off at the impossibility of the mechanisms used to transform. Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:I thought you might have been a Mechanical Engineer and was turned off at the impossibility of the mechanisms used to transform.
As a chemist/physicist/chemical engineering I could have been turned off by that as well but was more disturbed by the apparent violations of the laws of conservation of matter and energy.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Pfft. Movies violate THAT all the time!
It's comic book physics.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I should add to that the physically impossible, including conservation of matter, gets violated by shape shifters in science fiction all the time and in many cases it doesn't interfere with my ability to suspend my disbelief in the story.
I guess the real issue is that a good story makes me want to believe it, even if its unrealistic. Nothing in the Transformers movie made me want to believe. I think the movie relied entirely on a fan base who loved the toys and cartoons as children and so already wanted to believe the story. As a result, it did nothing to draw in the viewer who hadn't already bought in to the central premise.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
On the flight to Spain, they showed a Hilary Duff movie.
I was sitting with my 24-year-old brother, and we alternated between watching out of sheer boredom and mocking each other for it.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
rivka beat me to it.
I should also add that I've always thought the toys were really cool. They definitely speak to my inner engineer even if I find the story built around them to be contrived. I'd be delighted to have an optimus prime myself even though I couldn't tell you off hand which toy that is.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Y'all need to bring books, PDAs, and/or laptops on your flights. I don't watch airline movies unless I want to.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I always have at least one book on the flights. I also bring knitting and a laptop. Its never a problem on the short flights, its the long international ones where I end up watching the movies.
I saw the Transformer movie on a flight from Japan that lasted ~14 hours. Its amazing the what you will watch after you've been strapped into a tiny seat for 7 hours and are looking at another 7 hours ahead of you.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I've flown to Israel. The last time, IIRC, I read two books, played games on my Palm until it ran out of juice, did stuff on my laptop until its battery died, and slept. The movies were all dreadful -- I think I watched about 10 minutes of each before giving up.
I'd rather read the darn in-flight magazine than watch a movie I hate.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Y'all need to bring books, PDAs, and/or laptops on your flights.
We were traveling light- everythhing stuffed into a backpack. There was no room for any (more) books and there's no way I was lugging around a laptop for two weeks, and neither of us owned a PDA.
The look of rapt intensity on my brother's face as he watched a "getting pretty" montage was all worth it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: We were traveling light- everythhing stuffed into a backpack.
I can't/won't do that. Well, I can travel light. Just not that light.
quote:Originally posted by katharina: The look of rapt intensity on my brother's face as he watched a "getting pretty" montage was all worth it.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I just wanted to note that this may be the most popular thread I've ever started. It hit the second page only 83 minutes after I first posted, hit the third page in under 18 hours and on the forth day, it's still on the front page.
Next time I'm feeling neglected, I going start a rant against baseball and apple pie.
[ February 01, 2008, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
I put a bunch of movies or tv show episodes on my phone and watch those on the long flights. Audiobooks are great too - just close your eyes and enjoy the book. If you fall asleep, that's a bonus!
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Next time I'm feeling neglected, I going start a rant against baseball and apple pie.
What, so now you're siding with the terrorists?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
quote:I guess the real issue is that a good story makes me want to believe it, even if its unrealistic. Nothing in the Transformers movie made me want to believe. I think the movie relied entirely on a fan base who loved the toys and cartoons as children and so already wanted to believe the story. As a result, it did nothing to draw in the viewer who hadn't already bought in to the central premise.
QFT.
My hubby made me see this movie with him and I'm not sure I'll ever completely forgive him.
The transformers themselves appear half way through the movie and take it over from the kid we've spent the first half of the movie attempting to like. We get no character development from them, they state their the good guys and we believe them. When one of them dies, we're supposed to feel sad, even though he had, what, a dozen lines? prior to his death.
For comedic relief, we're treated to cringe-comedy, urination jokes, and "hide the anthropomorphic mack trucks in the yard" humor.
This was an incredibly poor movie.
And it didn't seem like anyone else in the packed house noticed that.
Maybe if I was a car person.. or a robot person.. or a car-robot person, I'd get it. But I'm not and I don't.
So those of you who love this movie, knock yourselves out. I'm happy for you. I'll go watch War of the Worlds which all y'all hated. But it at least had some child-parent growing together moments to make me care if they lived.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
quote: When one of them dies, we're supposed to feel sad, even though he had, what, a dozen lines? prior to his death.
If you count each word he spoke as a separate line then maybe there were a dozen of them.
--Enigmatic
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
enigmatic: Sorry, it's been a while since I saw it. Really what I remember most about that movie is what my watch looked like in the dark.
Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
Never was into TF when I was a kid, so when I watched the movie it was the first I'd been exposed.
Yeah, plot and characters bad. Robots? Nice...I was more impressed by the immense amount of work that had to be done for some of those sequences.
I mean...putting 40 foot tall robots in a front yard with humans...in the same FRAME...
Just a little bit of "sleight o'hand" being performed there. Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Part of the appeal is that men and boys like buttons on their toys. We love to open them up and move them around and basically learn via touch.
So you hand us a toy truck that we can make into a robot by moving things around, and we are thrilled.
Then someone asks, "Why is my truck a robot."
Now some writer has to come up with a reason, and marketing wants that reason to accomidate a lot more vehicle/robot combos (and eventually non-vehicle/robot combos and even triple changers) and they come up with some lame explanation.
And we buy it because we can then play with our toys. But we watch the show because there is little else to watch that isn't lame or adult or a game show. We watch and we ever so slowly buy into that story and remember it fondly in its simplicity when the rest of our life gets complicated.
Then when we are driving somewhere, perhaps riding strapped in our child seats unable to move, or even as adults strapped into the drivers seat unable to move, and a Mac Truck pulls up behind us on the highway, for a few minutes we begin to wonder, to ask ourselves "what if...."
Is that so bad?
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
I love Transformers.
I love robots. I love robots from space. I love robots from space that have a code. Not code like programming, but code like bushido.
I love sad robots. I loved/was traumatized at the death of Optimus Prime in the animated movie. My brothers and I used to observe a moment of silence when we got to that part of the soundtrack.
I love robot villains that fight robot heroes I love imagining that I am the human sidekick to a robot hero, or a human hero with a giant robot sidekick. I once had a dream where I turned into Starscream. It was awesome. I was 26. I love robot heroes that fight robot villains among puny humans, or even better, FOR the puny humans.
I think to get Transformers you have just have to accept the Giant Robot genre in general.
It may not be great sci fi from a critical standpoint, but from the perspective of my puny human heart it is beautiful. *sigh*
Oh, and the character design was BRILLIANT. ------
Binary
i take my eyeliner and draw on your chest where a heart would be had you been human had you come equipped with guilt grief compassion perhaps jealousy anything to hint at emotion cellular reproduction organic thought. you do not blink in the rain your cheek does not warm my hand you are one and i am zero.
Posted by DevilDreamt (Member # 10242) on :
The Oldest Debate
I’m watching the 1986 Transformers movie with my roommates. We get to the part where Optimus Prime is dying, and he passes the Autobot Matrix to Ultra Magnus. The Matrix falls from Optimus Prime’s hand, and Hot Rod catches it.
Mike: So much could have been avoided if that idiot Hot Rod hadn’t caught The Matrix!
Me: What? No. Dude, that’s foreshadowing, it has no bearing on the function of the universe.
Mike: Yes it does! The first Autobot to touch the Matrix bonds to it and becomes the leader. If Hot Rod wasn’t there, Ultra Magnus would have been the first to touch it, and he would have been able to unleash the Matrix’s power.
Me: *pauses movie* You can’t be serious. It’s clearly foreshadowing. It’s not a game of “Whoever touches the Matrix first wins.” Leadership was passed to Ultra Magnus, he just lacks the balls to be the leader and get it to work. When Hot Rod catches the Matrix as it falls, that’s foreshadowing the role he will play in Autobot history, it’s the writers hinting at his destiny. It’s story telling at its finest.
Mike: No, any Autobot can use the Matrix, so long as they’re the leader.
Me: No they can’t. Point in case: Ultra Magnus.
Mike: He’s not the leader!
Me: Seems like he would have known that. Besides, you’re assuming that Optimus Prime has a choice in who the next leader will be. Maybe the Matrix has a mind of its own, and it knew that Hot Rod was the correct one to lead.
Mike: But Hot Rod lacks experience! And he’s annoying!
After about four minutes of back and forth, everyone else in the room got annoyed enough to make us shut up and watch the movie. This debate never got resolved.
So then, is Hot Rod just some annoying punk kid who got lucky and became the leader of the Autobots, or was it fate? If Hot Rod hadn’t caught the Matrix, would Ultra Magnus have been able to activate it?
How can this not be considered great fiction?
I also enjoyed Beast Wars. There’s an episode where one of the Decepticons has his brain scrambled (probably from an EMP or something) and goes around claiming to be Wonko the Sane. Clearly, any children’s show that subtly references The Guide wins.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
The episode of Beast Wars where Dinobot beats down every darned member of the Decepticons and dies in the process was incredible. I don't think I cried, but I came awfully close.
Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
quote: I don't actually like hard scifi and I am perfectly willing to suspend some disbelief, but you have to give me SOMETHING. Let's take X-men for example (not the third one). It was very enjoyable to watch. Plausible...hell no! They throw in some mumbo jumbo about DNA and evolution but if you set that aside, you've got a great movie with some decent action about outcasts struggling for acceptance and about the fear people have of things that are different - more powerful.
I don't know, I think you can do the same thing with Transformers. It was very enjoyable to watch. Plausible...hell no! They throw in some mumbo jumbo about a war that raged for years and the Autobots and Decepticons, but if you set that aside, you've got a great movie with decent action about robots who protect mankind because they believe that mankind is inherently worth fighting for and saving, that humanity is worthy of being saved which shows an optimism and joy about humanity that is embodied in how the humans rise up to fight themselves--very powerful.
I think you have to see Transformers in that light and suspend your disbelief about the robots themselves because inherently, the movie is about humanity and a sort of humanistic philosophy that is interesting.
I really liked it...
Oh and I had the toys when I was a kid...really good stuff. But lets not spread that around...
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I'd just like to point out that this thread has now stretched to 4 pages.
Yes, you want a successful thread. Rant about some ones beloved childhood memories!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It would have had more posts had the word "rape" been in the title instead of the body of the thread.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Perhaps I should change the title to "Transformer rape"?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
>_<
Thanks ever so much for THAT image.
*scrubs brain*
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: It would have had more posts had the word "rape" been in the title instead of the body of the thread.
Or something about religion or atheism. "If a Transformer met God, could he still be an atheist?"
Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
quote:So then, is Hot Rod just some annoying punk kid who got lucky and became the leader of the Autobots, or was it fate? If Hot Rod hadn’t caught the Matrix, would Ultra Magnus have been able to activate it?
The Matrix flashed because it got DROPPED.
Ultra Magnus could have opened it... if he'd used the finger holds!
quote:I also enjoyed Beast Wars. There’s an episode where one of the Decepticons has his brain scrambled (probably from an EMP or something) and goes around claiming to be Wonko the Sane. Clearly, any children’s show that subtly references The Guide wins.
Actually, a prominent Transformers fan named Ben Yee (he actually registered beastwars.net, but then gave it to Hasbro and changed his site to bwtf.com had Wonko the Sane as his screen name on the newsgroup alt.toys.transformers.
The story editors of Beast Wars, Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio, used to read that newsgroup and put that reference in as a nod to Ben Yee.
Of course, he clearly chose his screen name based on the Hitchhiker's Guide, so it still comes back to the Guide.
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They're making more of the cartoons also.
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/sarcasm![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
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