This is topic Is there only one Deity? Try to describe it. (former: How universal ...) in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
[edit]:
The original name of this thread ("How universal is your Pyeff-Dee") led to misinterpretation, so I changed it.
The "PFD" comes form a bad choice of terms, so if you see it below, just remember that what I meant was close to "specific deity".

[obsolete]Most of the theists that I know of, have a personal connection with some deity, and it stands to reason that it is their favourite deity.[/obsolete]


BTW, here “deity” means a self-conscious entity.

Also, it helps include the others in this discussion, even atheists, as they might have a personally favourite deity themselves, from purely aesthetic reasons (e.g. IPU rather than FSM). Maybe the apatheists (the “I don’t care” bunch) could feel discriminated against in this topic, but the invitation is for them also, to talk about the deity they couldn’t care less about, the most. [Wink]

Anyways, this is an occasion for you to show the others (and why not yourselves) how well you know your PFD, in the context of its comprehensibility.

Below you’ll find a (non exhaustive) list of questions that will help characterize your specific deity:
(Disclaimer: if there are questions that are too personal, or seem too irrelevant, don’t answer them. Plus, this list of questions is not a prerequisite, it's meant as a guide to what specifics I am interested in. I tried to make it as general as possible.)
[/edit]


0. Do you have a PFD?
1. Did you choose your PFD, or did your PFD choose you?
2. Is your PFD the same as the one of your parents? (Either way, where did you find out about it?)
3. Does your PFD have a name? If yes, what is it?
4. Is your PFD knowable? (Is it in its nature to be unknowable by Humans?)
5. How would you characterise your PFD in up to 10 words? (the details are supposed to come up with the next questions)
6. Is your PFD described in some theology/religion? (Which one?)
7. Did your PFD inspire Humans to write scriptures? (If yes, what are those scriptures?)
8. Is your PFD omni-omnious? (What does omni-omnious mean for you?)
9. Is your PFD supposed to be free of logical inconsistencies?
10. Is your PFD omnipotent? Explain with examples. (Can your PFD create a rock so big that …)
11. Is your PFD omniscient?
12. Can one lie to your PFD (in a way that your PFD won’t know it)?
13. Is your PFD omni-benevolent?
14. Is your PFD ubiquitous?
15. Is your PFD “out of time”?
16. Is “goodness” defined by your PFD (as in actions, words, commandments)? If yes, can Humans know it?
17. Can your PFD influence the Universe in a direct way, contradicting the known laws of Physics?
18. Did your PFD interact with Humans at some point in history? Does it do it today?
19. Does your PFD communicate directly with the Humans in general and you in particular? (That is, in a non-equivocal manner for the Human side)
20. Does your PFD answer questions/prayers? (That is, can a Human initiate the communication, or is that the prerogative of your PFD?)
21. Does your PFD have a “plan” for Humans? If yes, can Humans comprehend it?
22. Is your PFD compatible with the concept of “free will”? How?
23. Does your PFD need worshiping?
24. Did your PFD ask for your worship?
25. Do you need to worship your PFD?
26. Does your PFD want you to convert others to its religion?
27. Is your PFD humanoid in form? If not, does it have “a form”?
28. Did your PFD have a role in the creation of this Universe? (Would the Universe be any different if your PFD didn’t exist?)
29. Did your PFD have a role in the creation of Humans? Did it create any other intelligent races somewhere else in the Universe?
30. Are the actions of your PFD compatible with Evolutionism (the scientific theory trying to explain Evolution)?
31. Is your PFD keeping track of Human actions?
32. Will your PFD be the judge in a “Judgement Day” scenario?
33. Does your PFD love all (living) individuals (even if not equally)?
34. Do the dead have the opportunity to meet your PFD?
35. Are there any other relevant questions to be asked about your PFD? Give examples (and answers). [Smile]


Do you assume that everybody understands the same when using a certain name for a deity, or even that deities with different names might be basically the same one? My present impression is that the PFD is so personal that there are no two people having the exact same one. I’m prepared to stand corrected.

Here’s my hope that you’ll find participating in this thread not only interesting but also informative (i.e. worth wile).

A.

[ February 08, 2008, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: suminonA ]
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by suminonA:
(Disclaimer: if there are questions that are too personal, or seem too irrelevant, don’t answer them)
Of course.

How 'bout you go first to get us started.
 
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
 
I can imagine someone's PFD differing from the one they believe in, ie. the deity I might like to exist vs. the one I believe actually does exist.
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Juxtapose:
I can imagine someone's PFD differing from the one they believe in, ie. the deity I might like to exist vs. the one I believe actually does exist.
Well, in those cases, one can answer twice, once for the PFD and once for the “one they believe in”. [Smile]

quote:
Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
How 'bout you go first to get us started.
I’m working on it. Soon to be posted.

A.
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
Ok, to get you started, here are my answers:


0.Do you have a PFD?
Yes.
1. Did you choose your PFD, or did your PFD choose you?
I chose it. It can’t influence me in any way.
2. Is your PFD the same as the one of your parents? (Either way, where did you find out about it?)
It is definitely not the same. My parents believe in something they call “the Christian God”.
My PFD is one that seems to be coherent enough, based on my life experience so far. I am not aware of anyone having known it exactly the way I define it, so no “direct” source for me.
3. Does your PFD have a name? If yes, what is it?
It doesn’t have an actual name, I call it “Meta Entity”.
4. Is your PFD knowable? (Is it in its nature to be unknowable by Humans?)
Yes, as far as it is coherent. My answers contain what I know about it, so it sure isn't "unknowable".
5. How would you characterise your PFD in up to 10 words? (the details are supposed to come up with the next questions)
Coherent and curious.
6. Is your PFD described in some theology/religion? (Which one?)
Not that I’m aware of. I’m not sure if writing a full description of it would qualify as a “theology”.
7. Did your PFD inspire Humans to write scriptures? (If yes, what are those scriptures?)
No.
8. Is your PFD omni-omnious? (What does omni-omnious mean for you?)
No. Omni-omnious is an impractical term for me. Plus, I don’t think that something that is omni-omnious could be comprehended by Humans to a relevant degree.
9. Is your PFD supposed to be free of logical inconsistencies?
Yes.
10. Is your PFD omnipotent? Explain with examples. (Can your PFD create a rock so big that …)
It was before the Universe was created. Its power in this Universe is non existent.
11. Is your PFD omniscient?
It was before the Universe was created. This Universe exists so it can learn more. It will obviously know everything that happened in this Universe when all is over.
12. Can one lie to your PFD (in a way that your PFD won’t know it)?
No, there is no direct communication with my PFD. My PFD instantly knows what there is to know, our “mind” included.
13. Is your PFD omni-benevolent?
This is irrelevant for my PFD, as it chose not to intervene.
14. Is your PFD ubiquitous?
As long as this Universe is a part of the Meta Entity, one can say it is ubiquitous.
15. Is your PFD “out of time”?
It is “outside” our time, because it can’t affect it (more than having started it in the first place).
16. Is “goodness” defined by your PFD (as in actions, words, commandments)? If yes, can Humans know it?
No. “Goodnes” is a term/concept defined by Humans.
17. Can your PFD influence the Universe in a direct way, contradicting the known laws of Physics?
No.
18. Did your PFD interact with Humans at some point in history? Does it do it today?
No. Before the Universe was started, there was no one else to interact with. This Universe was created as a way of learning what it means to “interact”. Any Human interaction is “contained” in the Meta Entity.
19. Does your PFD communicate directly with the Humans in general and you in particular? (That is, in a non-equivocal manner for the Human side)
No.
20. Does your PFD answer questions/prayers? (That is, can a Human initiate the
communication, or is that the prerogative of your PFD?)
No.
21. Does your PFD have a “plan” for Humans? If yes, can Humans comprehend it?
No plan, that is, no more than: I do this to experience new things.
22. Is your PFD compatible with the concept of “free will”? How?
Yes, all individuals in this Universe have free will, that’s why the Meta Entity doesn’t intervene at all.
23. Does your PFD need worshiping?
No.
24. Did your PFD ask for your worship?
It couldn’t and it wouldn’t.
25. Do you need to worship your PFD?
No.
26. Does your PFD want you to convert others to its religion?
No. There is no “religion” to be converted to.
27. Is your PFD humanoid in form? If not, does it have “a form”?
No. In a non-dimensional space, like the one before the Universe, there is no concept of “shape” or “form”.
28. Did your PFD have a role in the creation of this Universe? (Would the Universe be any different if your PFD didn’t exist?)
The Meta Entity created this Universe to experience more than the “everything” it knew before. Nonetheless, I believe the Universe could have been just an accident and still look the same.
29. Did your PFD have a role in the creation of Humans? Did it create any other intelligent races somewhere else in the Universe?
No, the Humans (and probably many other intelligent races elsewhere) are the by-product of the Universe. The Meta Entity didn’t know what kind of individuals would evolve.
30. Are the actions of your PFD compatible with Evolutionism (the scientific theory trying to explain Evolution)?
They are, as the Meta Entity just started it all, and chose the physical laws to work by (the initial conditions). It doesn’t intervene in the resulting process, so there should be a physical explanation for the process by which Evolution takes place.
31. Is your PFD keeping track of Human actions?
Yes, meaning that it knows everything that any individual does/feels/thinks, including Humans.
32. Will your PFD be the judge in a “Judgement Day” scenario?
No. There will be no such event, just a “rejoining day” somewhere in the (far, very far) future.
33. Does your PFD love all (living) individuals (even if not equally)?
It can be safely assumed that it loves all individuals, equally. Yet, its “sentiments” toward the individuals are irrelevant, for those parts. Just like the sentiments of an individual are irrelevant for its parts, e.g. legs and hands, for the ones possessing such extremities.
34. Do the dead have the opportunity to meet your PFD?
The dead integrate the Meta Entity, they don’t “meet” anyone, they just remember what they were originally part of.
35. Are there any other relevant questions to be asked about your PFD? Give examples (and answers).
I suppose there are, that’s why this question made it into the original list.


BTW, if you have more questions about my PFD, they are welcome, I’ll try to answer them.

A.
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
[0,35] = no
Extra assumption : "no"
 
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
So why even bring up omni-omniousness? Is this something you've heard other people use before?
 
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
 
0. Do you have a PFD? Favorite? Sure. But only in the way that I also have a favorite character in Harry Potter. (Neville, in case anyone was wondering.)
1. Did you choose your PFD, or did your PFD choose you? I made the choice.
2. Is your PFD the same as the one of your parents? (Either way, where did you find out about it?) Nope. Learned about him in school and through my own study.
3. Does your PFD have a name? If yes, what is it? Dionysus. The Romans called him Bacchus.
4. Is your PFD knowable? (Is it in its nature to be unknowable by Humans?) In the legends he messes with humans quite a bit, being half-human himself.
5. How would you characterise your PFD in up to 10 words? (the details are supposed to come up with the next questions) Drunk. Funny. Vengeful. Sensual. Shape-shifting. Bearded. Entertaining.
6. Is your PFD described in some theology/religion? (Which one?) Ancient Greek and Roman religions. And some people argue that Dionysus and other gods like him are in some way incorporated into Christianity.
7. Did your PFD inspire Humans to write scriptures? (If yes, what are those scriptures?) Nope. But he inspired a bunch of really good plays.
8. Is your PFD omni-omnious? (What does omni-omnious mean for you?) Nope. He knew a lot and could do a lot, but Zeus and the other gods could reign him in.
9. Is your PFD supposed to be free of logical inconsistencies? I don't think so.
10. Is your PFD omnipotent? Explain with examples. (Can your PFD create a rock so big that …)I don't think so.
11. Is your PFD omniscient? I don't think so.
12. Can one lie to your PFD (in a way that your PFD won’t know it)? Sure. But only particularly sneaky people get away with it.
13. Is your PFD omni-benevolent? No!
14. Is your PFD ubiquitous?No!
15. Is your PFD “out of time”? No!
16. Is “goodness” defined by your PFD (as in actions, words, commandments)? If yes, can Humans know it? No!
17. Can your PFD influence the Universe in a direct way, contradicting the known laws of Physics? Sometimes.
18. Did your PFD interact with Humans at some point in history? Does it do it today? Well, he never really did, but the stories said he could.
19. Does your PFD communicate directly with the Humans in general and you in particular? (That is, in a non-equivocal manner for the Human side) No!
20. Does your PFD answer questions/prayers? (That is, can a Human initiate the communication, or is that the prerogative of your PFD?) No! He does bring good wine, though.
21. Does your PFD have a “plan” for Humans? If yes, can Humans comprehend it? No!
22. Is your PFD compatible with the concept of “free will”? How? Sure. But he can occasionally control people too.
23. Does your PFD need worshiping? He has been known to enjoy a little worshiping.
24. Did your PFD ask for your worship? He doesn't have to ask.
25. Do you need to worship your PFD? Nope. But every time I act in a play or drink a glass of wine, I'm showing him a little respect.
26. Does your PFD want you to convert others to its religion? No!
27. Is your PFD humanoid in form? If not, does it have “a form”? He has a human form, but is also somewhat beast like.
28. Did your PFD have a role in the creation of this Universe? (Would the Universe be any different if your PFD didn’t exist?) No!
29. Did your PFD have a role in the creation of Humans? Did it create any other intelligent races somewhere else in the Universe? No!
30. Are the actions of your PFD compatible with Evolutionism (the scientific theory trying to explain Evolution)? I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
31. Is your PFD keeping track of Human actions? No!
32. Will your PFD be the judge in a “Judgement Day” scenario? No!
33. Does your PFD love all (living) individuals (even if not equally)? No!
34. Do the dead have the opportunity to meet your PFD? No!
35. Are there any other relevant questions to be asked about your PFD? Give examples (and answers). No!

I feel I may have done this wrong...some questions are answered tongue in cheek.
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by pooka:
So why even bring up omni-omniousness? Is this something you've heard other people use before?
Obviously. This list of question is intended to be as general as possible. [Smile]

quote:
Originally posted by Javert:
I feel I may have done this wrong...some questions are answered tongue in cheek.
I don’t think there’s a wrong way to answer this. Nobody said you can’t have fun when you feel like it. [Smile]

I ask the questions seriously, but that doesn’t mean you have any obligation either way.


A.
 
Posted by Tstorm (Member # 1871) on :
 
I entered this thread expecting something about a Personal Floatation Device. That's the only PFD I'd ever heard of... [Smile]
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
Tstorm, sorry to disappoint you. It's a pity that your PFD prevented you from diving into this topic. [Wink]

A.
 
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
Let's keep this topic afloat.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
I'm surprising myself by answering your questions.

0. Do you have a PFD?
Yeah. That would be G'd.

1. Did you choose your PFD, or did your PFD choose you?
He calls us Jews his chosen people.

2. Is your PFD the same as the one of your parents? (Either way, where did you find out about it?)
I was raised as a Jew, if that's what you mean.

3. Does your PFD have a name?
Yup.

If yes, what is it?
I don't know. It's unspeakable.

4. Is your PFD knowable? (Is it in its nature to be unknowable by Humans?)
Knowable? I don't even know what you mean by this question.

5. How would you characterise your PFD in up to 10 words? (the details are supposed to come up with the next questions)
[i]Actually, 13 words.

6. Is your PFD described in some theology/religion? (Which one?)
Judaism

7. Did your PFD inspire Humans to write scriptures? (If yes, what are those scriptures?)
The big guy dictated, Moses took dictation. We call it "The Torah".

8. Is your PFD omni-omnious?
Huh?

(What does omni-omnious mean for you?)
I have no idea what you're talking about? You mean "omniscient"? Then, yeah. The big guy knows it all.

9. Is your PFD supposed to be free of logical inconsistencies?
I guess.

10. Is your PFD omnipotent? Explain with examples. (Can your PFD create a rock so big that …)
I suppose so. I have no idea about the big rock thing. He can do big miracles when he sets His mind to it.

11. Is your PFD omniscient?
OK

12. Can one lie to your PFD (in a way that your PFD won’t know it)?
I wouldn't think so.

13. Is your PFD omni-benevolent?
Huh?

14. Is your PFD ubiquitous?
Huh?

15. Is your PFD “out of time”?
I don't know.

16. Is “goodness” defined by your PFD (as in actions, words, commandments)?
Yeah, He gave us a code of conduct and positive and negative commandments.

If yes, can Humans know it?
Yeah, he left us the Torah.

17. Can your PFD influence the Universe in a direct way, contradicting the known laws of Physics?
I suppose he can, when he wants to. Could be the laws of physics are just what we've discovered about the way he built the place. Any thing that contradicts those laws would indicate a bit where we haven't discovered how that part works.

18. Did your PFD interact with Humans at some point in history?
Oh sure. Plagues, burning bushes, parting the sea, yadda yadda ya.

Does it do it today?
Yeah, but he seems to have lost his taste lately for the showy gesture.

19. Does your PFD communicate directly with the Humans in general and you in particular?
(That is, in a non-equivocal manner for the Human side)
Not that I've noticed. Mostly we understand what he wants us to do by studying the Torah.

20. Does your PFD answer questions/prayers? (That is, can a Human initiate the communication, or is that the prerogative of your PFD?)
We like to proceed as if this were true.

21. Does your PFD have a “plan” for Humans? If yes, can Humans comprehend it?
I think he does.

22. Is your PFD compatible with the concept of “free will”? How?
Sure. We are not coerced into doing the right thing.

23. Does your PFD need worshiping?
Need? I don't know. He asks us to do it, though.

24. Did your PFD ask for your worship?
Yup.

25. Do you need to worship your PFD?
I don't know. I do it because it is the right thing to do.

26. Does your PFD want you to convert others to its religion?
Nope.

27. Is your PFD humanoid in form? If not, does it have “a form”?
I have no idea of His form. He said that he created people in his image, but that may be metaphorical and not literal.

28. Did your PFD have a role in the creation of this Universe? (Would the Universe be any different if your PFD didn’t exist?)
He built the place.

29. Did your PFD have a role in the creation of Humans?
He made people, too. Or at least the self-replicating prototypes.
Did it create any other intelligent races somewhere else in the Universe?
The Torah doesn't say one way or the other. I have no idea.

30. Are the actions of your PFD compatible with Evolutionism (the scientific theory trying to explain Evolution)?
Could be.

31. Is your PFD keeping track of Human actions?
Yup. A whole naughty and nice list.

32. Will your PFD be the judge in a “Judgement Day” scenario?
Actually, he judges more frequently than that.

33. Does your PFD love all (living) individuals (even if not equally)?
I don't know.

34. Do the dead have the opportunity to meet your PFD?
No idea.

35. Are there any other relevant questions to be asked about your PFD? Give examples (and answers).
Probably.

[ February 05, 2008, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Tante Shvester ]
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
Tante Shvester, thank you for your participation. [Smile] (I think you used the “quote” button instead the “edit” one. I don’t mind if you delete the first two versions of it)

I will clarify some parts:

quote:
4. Is your PFD knowable? (Is it in its nature to be unknowable by Humans?)
Knowable? I don't even know what you mean by this question.
I mean that I’ve heard of deities that are impossible to be known/understood/comprehended by Humans, by definition! In such a case, I wouldn’t insist in having more details about them.

quote:
8. Is your PFD omni-omnious?
Huh?
I ask this because I’ve heard it before (albeit rarely). Maybe someone will use it again here, and explain what they mean by it. [Smile]

quote:
13. Is your PFD omni-benevolent?
Huh?
This is a lot more frequent. AFAIK, it means “absolutely benevolent”, as in “always wants only well for everybody”. As opposed to “vengeful” or “capricious” and such.
(sorry if I can’t express this adequately in English…)

quote:
14. Is your PFD ubiquitous?
Huh?
As in (absolutely) everywhere.

- - -

Also, one more question for you:
quote:
5.How would you characterise your PFD in up to 10 words? (the details are supposed to come up with the next questions)
Actually, 13 words.
Why are there two different concepts denoted with the same name (1 and 2)? Or is it that there is no difference between the two?

A.
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
Hmm, maybe it seems that answering so many questions takes too much time, but there is good news: You don’t have to answer all the questions, in the format and order they come. They are presented in a list, to allow for step by step approach of the “description of your PFD”. But if you want to describe the relevant characteristics of your PFD in one or two paragraphs, go ahead! [Smile]

Either way, I have more questions: Why wouldn’t you describe your PFD? My curiosity is sincere and I really think that knowing what people mean when they refer to a specific deity would greatly reduce the frustration in many debates about them, and increase their productivity. Do you like the frustration? Do you like the “inside joke” feeling? Is it a “select/exclusive club” that you are defending? What do you gain by keeping silence on this topic?

A.

PS: please excuse my frustration … [Frown]
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Dude, as desperately as you seem to want to understand people, you just don't seem to understand people.
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
Precisely. Hence, my questions. If the silence is self-explanatory, then I fail to understand it completely. If there is a reason that I should already know, then I won’t insist any more. Surely the silence will teach me my lesson.

A.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
I've spent too many years using the acronym PFD as short for "Personal Flotation Device" (i.e a life jacket). I just can't seriously consider a set of questions that uses that term for G-d. It just seems flippant and irreverent.
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I just can't seriously consider a set of questions that uses that term for G-d. It just seems flippant and irreverent.
My apologies. I never intended to be neither flippant nor irreverent. Given the fact that I’ve never* used the PFD to mean what it appears to be its “basic meaning”, I’ve never anticipated that. My speaking English as a foreign language and all. My bad.

If this is the only failing of this thread, and there is someone else interested in this topic, I invite them to start another thread on this, using better terminology. I`ve used my quota for topics started this month.

*except the reply to Tstorm above

A.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Every time I see the thread title, my brain fills in "Puff Daddy." The Puff Daddy I am aware of is not universal at all. I can think of many adjectives to describe the man formerly known as Puff Daddy, but "universal" is not among them.
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
Every time I see the thread title, my brain fills in "Puff Daddy." The Puff Daddy I am aware of is not universal at all. I can think of many adjectives to describe the man formerly known as Puff Daddy, but "universal" is not among them.
Ok, this calls for a title change. [Smile]

A.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Dude, as desperately as you seem to want to understand people, you just don't seem to understand people.
QFT
 
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
I'm also thinking that the term "Personally Favorite Deity" makes it difficult to answer these questions. It makes it sound like picking a belief in God is like picking out what flavor of ice cream to eat.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Besides being ungrammatical.
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
Oh boy! Failing after failing! [Frown]

What terminology would you propose? I hope you do understand what this topic is about, even with my poor expression skills.

Help me improve it, and get on with the topic. Is that too much to ask?

A.

PS: thanks, The Rabbit.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
"What do you believe are the characteristics of God(s)? What should those characteristics be?"
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Why not simply "How universal is your G_d?" or even "How universal is your Diety?" Do the words "personally favorite" add something you think is important? If so what?

To me, at least, they are not only an inaccurate preface to my feelings with God, they are a bit demeaning. I don't worship my God because I've shopped around all the world's religions and picked out the model I like best. I worship my God because I have had profound spiritual experiences which lead be not only to believe in His reality but also lead me to trust Him.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
quote:
Help me improve it, and get on with the topic. Is that too much to ask?
Before you ask us for this, perhaps you should offer a compelling reason for us to assist you.
 
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
 
quote:
BTW, here “deity” means a self-conscious entity.
No, deity does not mean that here.
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tresopax:
It makes it sound like picking a belief in God is like picking out what flavor of ice cream to eat.
Indeed [Wink]
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
"What do you believe are the characteristics of God(s)? What should those characteristics be?"
Great! Thank you katharina. [Smile]

You may all consider this the new official question(s) in this thread.

quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Why not simply "How universal is your G_d?" or even "How universal is your Diety?" Do the words "personally favorite" add something you think is important? If so what?
I presented in the opening post the use of “personal” and “favorite”. They are not essential, they were just trying to acknowledge that what will be presented here (that is, what I was asking for) is the personal view of each poster, and as the posters would be talking about their cherished beliefs. So I hoped the others would refrain from joking about them.

quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
To me, at least, they are not only an inaccurate preface to my feelings with God, they are a bit demeaning. I don't worship my God because I've shopped around all the world's religions and picked out the model I like best. I worship my God because I have had profound spiritual experiences which lead be not only to believe in His reality but also lead me to trust Him.
I see, again, sorry for the bad choice of terms. Maybe the “specific deity” would express better what this is all about. --> new title change.

quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Help me improve it, and get on with the topic. Is that too much to ask?
Before you ask us for this, perhaps you should offer a compelling reason for us to assist you.
Well, I already know you don’t value much people like me. So believe it or not, I’m not asking this just for me, I still believe that having the occasion to present what people mean when they talk about a specific deity will help many other related topics. If you find no value in participating in this topic, then don’t do it just because I ask.

BTW, as I’m “desperately” trying to communicate with you (royal you) in an enjoyable manner, helping me not bother/offend you with my bad expression could have a beneficial effect for more posters here.

quote:
Originally posted by Foust:
quote:
BTW, here “deity” means a self-conscious entity.
No, deity does not mean that here.
I’m not trying to redefine all the words in the English dictionary. It’s just that knowing that many times I might use wrongly some terms, I also expand on what I mean by them.

quote:
Originally posted by Tresopax:
It makes it sound like picking a belief in God is like picking out what flavor of ice cream to eat.
It does? Then I’ll avoid this formula in the future.

A.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
quote:
You may all consider this the new official question(s) in this thread.
[Smile]

Could you change the thread title?
 
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
 
My non-Puff-Daddy Deity is as universal as he wants to be.
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
katharina, you refer to a change to this: "What do you believe are the characteristics of God(s)?" ?

A.
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
"God or gods" preferably, the capital "G" has a specific meaning that would make "Gods" somewhat undesirable for others.
 
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
 
quote:
I still believe that having the occasion to present what people mean when they talk about a specific deity will help many other related topics.
I think part of the apprehension here is because many people have spent their entire lives trying to understand God, and for many of them, even a lifetime of learning and searching isn't enough. To them God cannot be summarized into a simple questionnaire or checklist. And during that search for God, people's understanding of differenct concepts or different aspects of God changes, and so you end up with a bunch of answers like, "I don't really know" or "I think so, but my belief in God does not rely on the answer to this question."

So no matter how you rephrase your question or rephrase your thread, people are still going to hesitate to participate because it is often times too hard to describe God within a simple post.
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
camus, I think you make a very good point. It isn’t easy to make a description. (That’s kind of why I proposed a list of starting questions, in order to have a minimum common point for comparisons).
At the same time, you use the term God as if I was supposed to know what it stands for, while trying to understand it is one of the very points of this thread. In what you jsut said, one can understand you used it generically as in "the concept of God" (even if some would probably prefer “god” or “G-d”).

Yet, what is one supposed to answer to a question like: “Do you believe in God?” ?

A.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
You're right, Mucus, I should put those separately.

I don't like "specific Deity" any better than the original question. It carries the assumption still about picking and choosing among the many equally okay possibilities.
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
Ok, one more question, before the title change:

The "God or gods" version, doesn't discriminate against the divinities that have some other specific names?

A.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
I like the new title, but I'd prefer "personal Diety" over specific "Diety".

It might still have the picking an choosing connotation that is bothering Kat, but for me it has more of a connotation of intimacy, a connotation that I have willing chosen to worship my God. It strikes me in much the way as Ruth declaration "Thy God shall be my God"
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
I suppose...maybe [Gg]od(s)*
j/k

Perhaps "your God,god,or gods", I suppose that there might be monotheists that would object to the connotation of the capital "G" although I cannot think of them off-hand right now.
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
Well, is "How universal is your Deity" a good compromise?

A.
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
I'm not entirely sure that means what you think or want it to mean.
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
Mucus, are you saying that "God" is more generic than "Deity" ?


edit: Why is Deity a bad choice?

A.
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
I'm not saying Deity is a bad choice.
I'm saying that "How universal is your ..." means something quite different from "What do you believe are the characteristics of ..."
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
For me the problem in the title is that it suggests that there is more than one God. I believe that there is one God, but many ways in which we experience/describe/know God.
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
"Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence" [Wink]

I'd also add that I personally find none of the titles particularly offensive. I find some of them a bit insensitive to others, and thus not particularly diplomatic when seeking their input, but that is slightly different.
 
Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
 
"Specific deity" appears to me to be an attempt to refer to the simple reality of religious pluralism.

This, of course, in pseudo-academic jargon, given that s seems to be aspiring to create some sort of objective pan-faith database. s appears to be acting in good, if slightly naive, faith to me.
 
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
 
I wonder how many of the people that are complaining about the title actually intend on participating in the op's original objective once the title is changed to something more suitable or non-offensive. Is the title really the primary obstacle in participation, or is it just a convenient excuse to not participate?
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
I already participated [Wink]
 
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
 
Yeah, but you obviously weren't too concerned about the thread title to begin with, at least not enough to prevent you from answering the questions.

I guess my point is that suminonA can change the thread title all he wants, but I still don't think he's going to get the results he's looking for. In other words, I don't want suminonA to think that lack of participation is due to the thread title instead of something else.
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
You're probably right.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
quote:
BTW, as I’m “desperately” trying to communicate with you (royal you) in an enjoyable manner, helping me not bother/offend you with my bad expression could have a beneficial effect for more posters here.
When you communicate with your friends in an enjoyable manner, do you whip out a clipboard and say, "Hey, let's all answer these twenty questions about latent racism?"
 
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
 
It is sad that because of one (or rather several) bad choice(s) for the thread title, people feel justified to put me down, rather than participate in the topic (not the tread).

As you can see, the latest choice is: “Is there only one Deity? Try to describe it.”

The non-believers are also invited to give their opinion, on the question(s): Is the concept of “God” (as a generic Deity) sufficient to make the divide between believers and non-believers? Do you think that all believers believe basically (in) the same things, but they just got some “specifics” differently?

If more people would try to make a description of their concept of the Deity (what they believe in), we could see how unique/Universal that Deity was, don’t you think?

A.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
When you communicate with your friends in an enjoyable manner, do you whip out a clipboard and say, "Hey, let's all answer these twenty questions about latent racism?"
Actually, a tendency towards that sort of thing (albeit a tad more subtle) is a big part of why my ex is my ex.
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
Seriously, "is there only one deity"?
What, are you trying to imitate the proverbial bull in the equally proverbial pottery shop?
 


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