I've just finished reading a book that I honestly never would have picked up myself...my book club picked it out. It's called "Family Tree" by Barbara Delinsky and it's just straining credibility to the breaking point. Granted, I'm hardly a geneticist, but a google search this afternoon couldn't even call up a precedent for this situation that didn't involve mixups at a fertility clinic.
The situation: A white couple (nobody has ever questioned their whiteness) has a black baby. She has curly black African-American hair and brown skin.
The book bothered me on several counts that I won't go into right now, but basically a paternity test does show that daddy is daddy and mommy is mommy. So, where did she get her skin and hair? The rest of the book seeks to find out but I read the entire thing with a giant, "Yeah right" hanging over my head. Lighter skin tends to be the more recessive trait. I know skin color isn't as simple as one trait...I looked it up and there are at least 7 genes involved and they blend (which is why most African Americans don't look pure African black...there's a lot of white mixed in).
Worse, we find out that the trait only comes through from one parent, not both as you would expect a recessive trait to do.
Am I missing something? Is this somehow a possible or credible situation? (Google has failed me, so I thought I'd ask Hatrack.)
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Christine, it is possible. I remember reading about it in the last couple of years.
Delinsky write a book about a quilt. I think it was her. Stitches in Time. Pretty creepy!
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Well, only if you had black folks hanging out in the family tree. Or if the baby was mixed up in the hospital. I don't know how possible it is to have a child with brown skin and curly hair if both parents are totally anglo saxon in their white-osity.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I'm assuming this was sort of based on the family that was two biracial parents and had twins. One "white" the other "black". Not that it makes as much sense.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: I'm assuming this was sort of based on the family that was two biracial parents and had twins. One "white" the other "black". Not that it makes as much sense.
Now that is interesting. I saw a show where a baby was born half black and half white. This was because the baby had two sets of genes and was his or her own twin! A Chimera. It's cool!
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Ha! Breyer, that is the story I was remembering, but I think they discussed this situation as also being possible.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You're talking about multiple genes anyway. Skin and hair aren't triggered by the same genes, they are separate. And skin color is, like many something that mixes, I can't remember the term for it, but like has been mentioned, it'll often mix characteristics of the parents producing something of a composite for the baby.
Even if there was a black ancestor, the odds involved of hitting just the right gene makeup and the right combination of what I would have to imagine are all double recessive gene traits pretty deeply buried in the family history for the one with the black ancestor to look white without question would be astronomical. It's either a hoax, which I lean towards, or a billion to one shot. It'd almost have to be genetics too, and not random mutation, as it usually takes generations to lose pigment, and it's much, much more difficult to gain it than lose it.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: I'm assuming this was sort of based on the family that was two biracial parents and had twins. One "white" the other "black". Not that it makes as much sense.
I saw not only this story, but a picture of the little girls (indeed, once black one white) and the odds against it...1 in a million!
But in that case, the parents were both biracial...you could see it in the picture that they were a medium brown color that would have come from both black and white ancestry. They do have the genes for black and white in them and while it is truly unusual the way the genes paired up and split out, it is possible. Like I said, one in a million.
The odds of a biracial (half and half) couple having a full white (no black traits) or full black (no white traits) is supposedly about 1:100 (same article).
But I still could find nothing to suggest that a couple showing no African American traits at all could have a black baby.
quote:Skin and hair aren't triggered by the same genes, they are separate.
I wasn't sure if the African American hair was somehow linked to the skin or not...I did think that was a bit odd but I wasn't sure enough to mention it. Sometimes two unrelated things seem to go on the same gene, like baldness and gender.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I'm curious about this. Thanks for the links.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I remember either reading about something like this in National Geographic, perhaps, or an educational program on TV back in the 1970s. A child with black features was born to white parents in South Africa during apartheid. The child was assumed to be black because of the features, so shuttled off to one of the black townships, where she was raised by strangers. When she was an adult (IIRC), genetics testing came around (I think) and it was discovered that she was, indeed, the daughter of both of those people and therefore white with black appearance, and was allowed out of the black area to live as a white. She turned them down, saying this was the only life she'd ever known, thank you very much.
I'm a little hazy on specifics, but that's the general idea.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elizabeth: A youtube vid of the author:
She's a decent enough author, but she clearly doesn't understand genetics.
quote:Originally posted by Christine: Worse, we find out that the trait only comes through from one parent, not both as you would expect a recessive trait to do.
That would be the point at which credibility broke for me.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Thislooks like it could be what I'm remembering.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Interestingly, in one of my Outlander books, a baby is born of mixed parentage, but appears white at birth, the author saying that black babies are born with light skin, but with a darker patch, like a birthmark? Is this true?
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elizabeth: Interestingly, in one of my Outlander books, a baby is born of mixed parentage, but appears white at birth, the author saying that black babies are born with light skin, but with a darker patch, like a birthmark? Is this true?
This can definitely be true of mixed racial groups. In fact, I am friends with a racially mixed couple -- white woman and half asian father -- and their daughter is white but with a random asian patch on her leg. I understand that this is very common.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Thislooks like it could be what I'm remembering.
Thank you! That may be what I was looking for. Although I still wonder if the trait wouldn't have had to come through BOTH parents.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
*obligatory mention of race being a social construct rather than an accurate biological description of humans*
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
My mom used to work in the nursery and had several experiences where a black man looked at his baby and shouted, that kid is to white to be mine. Then the nurse would go over and explain that the baby is often lighter then expected.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I saw not only this story, but a picture of the little girls (indeed, once black one white) and the odds against it...1 in a million!
So there are 300 such children alive in the United States at this moment. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
No, because you can only count bi-racial couples having twins in the count, right?
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
I once saw a special (Discovery Channel, perhaps) that showed a family in the UK that had experienced the opposite. Two black parents (who were both about 1/16th white) had two or three totally pale, Caucasian-looking kids. The parents looked pretty African, they were only slightly lighter-skinned that the average West African. The kids looked like regular white people.
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
This reminds me a little of The Human Stain. Excellent movie, by the way.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
quote: I know skin color isn't as simple as one trait...I looked it up and there are at least 7 genes involved and they blend (which is why most African Americans don't look pure African black...there's a lot of white mixed in). [/QB]
I would just like to point out that "pure African black" is a stereotype. Africa is a huge continent and there are all shades of brown and yes, even blue/black. But everyone that came to America from Africa did not start at as "pure black." Some, probably many-- but not all.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:I saw not only this story, but a picture of the little girls (indeed, once black one white) and the odds against it...1 in a million!
So there are 300 such children alive in the United States at this moment.
That was my thought exactly.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
How many interracial couples are there having twins in this country?
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
I saw a documentary with an average looking white guy born to 2 black parents. The group picture of his family reunion was weird. He wound up in a unique job that was perfect: he taught racial sensitivity in the Army. He would start talking about race with the trainees for a while, get some feedback, then pass around the group picture and prove that he was "black". The double-takes and confusion were the best part,
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:I saw not only this story, but a picture of the little girls (indeed, once black one white) and the odds against it...1 in a million!
So there are 300 such children alive in the United States at this moment.
That was my thought exactly.
First there are 300 million PEOPLE living in this country, not 300 million bi-racial couples. Second, the odds of having TWINS are still about 3 percent, even with modern fertility treatments. So first you need a biracial couple...then you need them to have twins...and THEN the odds are 1 in a million. It could easily never happen in a generation.
quote:Originally posted by porcelain girl:
quote: I know skin color isn't as simple as one trait...I looked it up and there are at least 7 genes involved and they blend (which is why most African Americans don't look pure African black...there's a lot of white mixed in).
I would just like to point out that "pure African black" is a stereotype. Africa is a huge continent and there are all shades of brown and yes, even blue/black. But everyone that came to America from Africa did not start at as "pure black." Some, probably many-- but not all. [/QB]
Sorry...I don't mean to bring stereotypes into this, I was just trying to simplify things. You're absolutely right, of course!
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
You know, that reminds me of an episode of Law & Order, I think it was. A black guy looks white enough to pass for white, moves up in corporate America, marries a white woman, becomes quite wealthy, their daughter has a black child, and, well, someone was murdered over it.
Why do I think in partial episodes?
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I've seen lots of stories of a white person born to black parents. See that's the thing...I thought the darker pigments were more dominant. A pale skin gene could hide in a dark skinned person but can a dark skinned gene hide in a pale skinned person?
In the case of this book, the gene hides for 2 generations before showing itself...then all of a sudden a gene that didn't....work?....present itself?....in the previous 2 generations gives a little girl curly black hair and brown skin with no help from the mother. It's not like it paired up so that it was different in this generation.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elizabeth: Delinsky write a book about a quilt. I think it was her. Stitches in Time. Pretty creepy!
That was Barbara Michaels, who is much more cool than Barbara Delinsky and has read all the same trashy novels from the early 1900s that I have. Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
ha! Thanks, Fyfe.
I read a novel recently by Fannie Flagg called "Welcome to the World, Baby Girl." It was about a young woman whose African American mother was "passing." This means "passing for white." It was like a subculture, apparently, and the people were in constant fear of being found out by both whites and blacks.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Toni Morrison's "Song of Solomon" also mentions "passing", regarding a group of partially-black people who lived in rural Virginia.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan: *obligatory mention of race being a social construct rather than an accurate biological description of humans*
I think that's up for debate, RRR. (but not by me, though i would love to isten in on one) I think it is pretty amazing how forensics people and anthropologists/archaeologists can trace migrations of people based on their remains. There is no skin left to judge from, in many cases, it's all bones and teeth.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
There are regional differences which are useful in disease models (most obvious sickle cell). I believe that in some drug studies, regional differences can also affect the usefulness of the drug.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elizabeth:
quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan: *obligatory mention of race being a social construct rather than an accurate biological description of humans*
I think that's up for debate, RRR. (but not by me, though i would love to isten in on one) I think it is pretty amazing how forensics people and anthropologists/archaeologists can trace migrations of people based on their remains. There is no skin left to judge from, in many cases, it's all bones and teeth.
I'd really like to give a detailed response explaining exactly why race doesn't exist as a biological concept in humans, but I just don't have the time right now. So for now I'd to quote a relevant passage from a term paper I wrote last semester and respond more later.
While humans have likely been dividing each other into groups based on appearance for as long as there has been interaction between diverse populations, the concept of race as it is known today evolved from the work of Linnaeus, who separated Homo sapiens into five distinct biological races. During the 20th century many people have moved away from the view that race is biologically ascribed, and there has been much debate as to whether the human population can be divided into races (Stanford, 2006). The biological concept of race is a division of a species that differs from other divisions by the frequency with which certain hereditary traits appear. The application of this concept to the human population has been debated due to a number of factors. There is no clear consensus of the number of races in existence if they do exist, and the human population exhibits continuous variation in the traits that are commonly used to determine race (Devlin, 2007). In addition, the race concept has also been used historically to say that some groups of people are lesser than other groups and that they therefore do not need to be treated as well.
Today in anthropology race is mainly seen as a cultural concept. Marks (1994) advocates for the view of race as a cultural concept and describes many examples of the problems with ascribing race to biology. For instance, in the past the United States has classified anyone with one black great-grandparent as black. Marks states that it is absurd that it only took one black great-grandparent to be considered black, but seven white great-grandparents could not cause someone to be considered white. He also describes the huge variation present among so-called races and the problem of unclassifiable populations. The biological diversity within human populations is much greater than that between populations. Europeans have been classified into as many as ten different races in the past, and with the need for this large a number to describe the variation in a population, Marks argues that geographic gradation is a much better explanation of human variation than the biological race concept. In addition, there exist many groups of people who possess the characteristics of multiple so-called races. As an example, Marks describes that some populations in India have both dark skin and Caucasian facial features while also being technically Asian due to their geographic location.
Brace (2000) further explains the fallacy in ascribing race to biology by stating that people’s exposure to people of vastly different phenotypes through pictures and television misrepresents the actual variety present on Earth. What these pictures fail to show people is that there is a gradation of phenotypes from, for instance, people in Kenya to people in Norway. He also states that the United States has played a major role in creating the concept of race as it is known today due to the makeup of the people who came there. The interaction of peoples from very different portions of the world, chiefly Western Africa, Northwest Europe, and Northeast Asia, caused the development of the concept of race and led to that concept being used to define the capabilities of individuals who were viewed as members of those races.
Brace, CL. 2000. Does Race Exist? An Antagonist’s Perspective. NOVA Online. Devlin, J. 2007. Lecture presented in Anthropology 210. The University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN. Marks, J. December 1994. Black, White, Other. Natural History: 32-35. Stanford C, Allen JS, Antón SC. 2006. Biological Anthropology: The Natural History of Humankind. Custom edition for The University of Tennessee, Knoxville. Boston: Pearson Custom Publishing.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Yeah, I agree that race is an artificial concept. Culture on the other hand...
African American Ringtones?
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"African American Ringtones?"
I see that too. What is it, Dave Chapelle doing his Rick James impression, "I'm Rick James, bitch!"?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine:
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: I'm assuming this was sort of based on the family that was two biracial parents and had twins. One "white" the other "black". Not that it makes as much sense.
I saw not only this story, but a picture of the little girls (indeed, once black one white) and the odds against it...1 in a million!
<snip>
The odds of a biracial (half and half) couple having a full white (no black traits) or full black (no white traits) is supposedly about 1:100 (same article).
If the odds of each are 1/100, then the odds of the combination are 1/100 x 1/100 = 1/10,000. Not a million -- that would require odds of 1/1000 x 1/1000.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Christine:
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: I'm assuming this was sort of based on the family that was two biracial parents and had twins. One "white" the other "black". Not that it makes as much sense.
I saw not only this story, but a picture of the little girls (indeed, once black one white) and the odds against it...1 in a million!
<snip>
The odds of a biracial (half and half) couple having a full white (no black traits) or full black (no white traits) is supposedly about 1:100 (same article).
If the odds of each are 1/100, then the odds of the combination are 1/100 x 1/100 = 1/10,000. Not a million -- that would require odds of 1/1000 x 1/1000.
Maybe they add in the odds of a pregnancy being twins?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
In Brazil, you're considered black pretty much if and only if you look black.
Of course, with its long history of integration instead of segregation, not only is there not much of a separate black culture in Brazil, but the majority of Brazilians have some African ancestry.
I've got to say, I like their way better.
[ February 24, 2008, 02:18 AM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
Syn mentioned chimeras, which is the only thing I could think of to fit the scenario. If one of the parents were a chimera (with two sets of DNA in one body), then one set of DNA could control their appearance while the other set applies to the reproductive organs. However, in that case genetic testing would possibly show that the child did not belong to that parent, if the cells taken for analysis were from the non-reproductive set of DNA. I read an article about this involving horses, where when a foal was genetically tested, neither its mother nor father matched, because they were both chimeras.
I don't know if this situation would explain the plot of the book, though. Did the author give an explanation by the end?
--Mel
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
My mom used to talk about a friend of hers who was half Samoan, and the woman was fair skinned and red-haired, and she married a white man, and their children bore out the Samoan traits, which in their culture was interpreted as being black. They decided it was easier to just tell people they were adopted - at least, that's how my mom told it, anyway.
quote:I thought the darker pigments were more dominant.
Yeah, because it only takes a little black paint to make white gray, and all the white in the world will never get it pure again. Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:My mom used to work in the nursery and had several experiences where a black man looked at his baby and shouted, that kid is to white to be mine. Then the nurse would go over and explain that the baby is often lighter then expected.
And they can get darker in the first week.
I had an experience with this in the NICU, which I've written about before. Aerin got a new neighbor who wasn't that sick (relatively speaking). It was a little white girl named Shaylee. About 3 days after Shaylee moved in, there was a little black girl in her station, so I assumed Shaylee was moved to the step-up nursery. I hadn't seen the parents yet. I asked one of the nurses if Shaylee went up, and she said, "This is Shaylee." I looked at the baby and said, "Um, this baby is black." The nurse explained the phenomenon to me (and very nicely didn't mock me to my face). I had actually heard of it, but it was such a dramatic change that it never entered my mind.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
So those stories about the white couple having intercourse on their honeymoon, and then having a black baby, wouldn;t be true, because they would not recognize it for a few days.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I actually read somewhere a long time ago about Asians being born with blue eyes. That sounds unusual. Maybe some sort of racial blending is ensuing.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I actually read somewhere a long time ago about Asians being born with blue eyes. That sounds unusual. Maybe some sort of racial blending is ensuing.
That's not surprising. Take Japan as an example. Because of all the Dutch and Portuguese that were in Japan a few hundred years ago, there are actually a lot of Japanese which have small amounts of European blood in them. It's well within the real of plausibility for some of those people to have blue-eyed genes, and every once in a while have a blue-eyed baby.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
There are North Indians who have red hair and blue or violet eyes. Not necessarily at the same time, mind you. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Better than the other way around, I think.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
A friend of mine is full Chinese, (parents from Taiwan) but is very often asked if she is part white, which is much more common where I live than most places in America. There is something about her complexion and eye color that is subtly Eastern European, maybe slavic. Also, her dad has the same trait, and his hair is somewhat brownish, with a bit of red tinge. They don't know of any white ancestors, but it seems pretty clear to me that there is one distant ancestor who was white. It's such a very subtle thing, but fascinating to consider.
I've always wondered about my ancestry too. I'm Caucasian, but one side of my family has been in America (from England) for 400 years. The other side ambiguously claims to be German and English. I have traveled in almost every country in Western and Central Europe and I have been mistaken for a local, or asked if my family comes from that country, in every last one. I was even asked by a Pakistani if I was part Pakistani, I think because of my curly patchy beard.
Maybe we all experience this kind of confusion, but I think in my case it mostly has to do with my eyes, which are mostly grey, with a little blue. People without distinct eye colors probably seem more formless in ethnicity.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I may be wrong, but I believe that "native Taiwanese"* people are sometimes considered to be lighter in complexion than those from mainland China. There is a vague insult that translates as "whitey" that can be used.
*I used quotes because I'm not sure how "native" those natives are. I just know that I've heard it used by those from PRC to those from ROC.
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
I have the acquaintance of a family in Tulancingo Hgo, (the pot in Mexico may have been stirred more than ours) who had eight children. They are all a different color. They ranged from almost blond with blue eyes, to almost black with pelo chino (nappy hair). At adulthood their hight ranged from less than five feet to more than six. Two are stocky three are skinny and three avereage build. I am reasonabily certain that they all have the same mother and father.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)