I heard about this. They only lost $23 million in the lawsuit? Sounds like bullcrap is still a very lucrative business.
Posted by Achilles (Member # 7741) on :
Cool. Maybe "Head-On" is next.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
It's interesting reading the comments on the ABC article.
quote: Since Airborne came on the market I have taken it religiously at the first sign of a cold or sore throat. Since then I have had only one cold and no bouts of flu. I am sold on the product and routinely recommend it to others. I also take it before every flight and have never been sick on a vacation.I have no intention of requesting a refund; I have received more than my money's worth and plan to continue being a loyal, healthy customer.
And since I heard of Airborne, I have refused to take it. I fly all the time between home and school. I live in a dorm. I think I've gotten seriously ill about one time in the past two years.
So by the same logic, not taking Airborne is a good way to stay healthy Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
But it was invented by a schoolteacher! How could it possibly not work?
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Apparently schoolteacher superpowers don't extend to herbal remedies. I take no supplements at the first sign of a cold, and it usually goes away! (I do rest, which may or may not have an effect).
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
quote:Originally posted by Achilles: Cool. Maybe "Head-On" is next.
But head-on makes no claims. As far as I can tell, the wholepoint is to stick it on your head and look cool. Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
So, then --
if I've bought a couple of boxes of this stuff but don't have proof of purchase, I can still get cash out of the settlement?
I'd go for getting money out of head-on but I have not bought head-on nor would I even pretend to have for money. It's the saddest scam in the history of daytime advertising.
Posted by hansenj (Member # 4034) on :
I took Airborne once a day, M-F, during my student teaching because of all the sick students and teachers around. I really didn't want to get sick since it was hard enough all ready for me to get there every day (being very pregnant at the time). And I didn't get sick. Sure, I don't know if I would have gotten sick without it, but I definitely don't think the extra vitamins hurt me. I never thought it was a cure-all miracle drug, but I do feel it helps.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
The placebo effect alone can cure a lot of minor diseases.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phanto: The placebo effect alone can cure a lot of minor diseases.
For this reason alone, I'll probably continue taking it, although I feel like kind of a dope.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by hansenj: Sure, I don't know if I would have gotten sick without it, but I definitely don't think the extra vitamins hurt me. I never thought it was a cure-all miracle drug, but I do feel it helps.
You'd be a lot better off (and so would your wallet) with a multivitamin and a dose of echinacea. Speaking of which, echinacea should never be taken for more than about 2 weeks at a time, and is generally considered to be contraindicated in pregnant women.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
The studies in the US involving dried echinacea, taken in pill form, haven't shown any conclusive benefit. I believe that there have been European studies that *have* shown tinctures of echinacea to be at least marginally effective, however. CT, am I recalling correctly?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: I believe that there have been European studies that *have* shown tinctures of echinacea to be at least marginally effective, however.
That is my understanding. Also, I thought the US results were mixed, and some with poor results were found to have used brands that tended to have little or no active ingredient?
Let's all give thanks again to the wisdom of Congress in passing the DHSEA.
(The FDA's recent policy change may help.)
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yes, some preparations of echinacea were found to have some effect, and some studies were found to be of preparations with little to no active ingredient.
And it's 10 days-- you're not supposed to take echinacea for more than 10 consecutive days, or it loses effectiveness. I've also heard that you shouldn't take it for the full 10 days more than once in a 30 day month.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I've heard one week, 10 days, 2 weeks, 4 weeks, and even 8 weeks. I figured 2 weeks was right in the middle. Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by scholar:
quote:Originally posted by Achilles: Cool. Maybe "Head-On" is next.
But head-on makes no claims. As far as I can tell, the wholepoint is to stick it on your head and look cool.
Their marketing team needs to be bussed to the 1800's and lynched. That's the world's most annoying commercial.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
The studies I read that seemed most reliable said 10 days; a marked decrease in effectiveness was noted after that. Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
*sigh* Maybe I should jump on the bandwagon and sue vitamin C.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Achilles: Cool. Maybe "Head-On" is next.
"BS, apply directly to the forehead. BS, apply directly to the forehead."
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
IANAL yadda yadda...
Samprimary, the way I read the proposed Settlement Agreement is that yes, if you purchased product but have no proof of purchase (receipts preferred, looked like maybe they'd take UPCs as well?), you CAN file a claim, but you are limited to 6 boxes total and you have to file additional signed affidavits swearing that you're filing a true claim and really did purchase. I also saw something about "the average cost of the Products", which I didn't parse well enough to completely understand. There were references to the retail prices of the three types of product earlier in that section, so maybe undocumented claims get an average of those 3 prices times however many boxes you're claiming.
This settlement has NOT been accepted by the judge yet, from what I read. Although the Agreement authorizes a total class fund of $23.25 million and full reimbursement of purchased Product, there's no guarantee yet that it will finalize this way. Which reminds me, I need to check on the status of the Netflix class action...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: *sigh* Maybe I should jump on the bandwagon and sue vitamin C.
I actually read an article the other day about how Vitamin C is getting new attention and a lot of new research dollars for having a myriad of positive health effects that no one ever really knew about before. It boosts the immune system, keeps you young, protects your heart, wards off cancer and I think can actually force the planets into interstellar alignment.
Seriously though, Vitamin C has some major healthy mojo going for it, and there are decades of old and now a lot of new, studies to back it up.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
While vitamin C is necessary and beneficial, to the best of my knowledge it's benefits tend to be highly overstated quite often, especially the benefits at the dosages it is sold in (often around 500-1000% RDA, in my experience).
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
When I was living in Mexico, I had occasion to undergo a course of treatment consisting of intervenous vitamin C. 4cc's a dose for several days. I had an head cold when I got the first injection. (not the reason for the treatment) I actually felt the cold evaporate. It took about two minutes, and I was symptom free. They never came back eather. I've never tried it in this country. But, I am convinced that it worked that day.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
quote:While vitamin C is necessary and beneficial, to the best of my knowledge it's benefits tend to be highly overstated quite often, especially the benefits at the dosages it is sold in (often around 500-1000% RDA, in my experience).
As someone I know said when somebody wanted him to endorse an herbal supplement -- "Why should I endorse a product that people are just going to piss out?"
It's about absorption -- not intake.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Lyrhawn! I don't doubt that vitamin C does have all sorts of benefits to the human body. I was joking about all the hype that vitamin C can make your colds disappear. (I can still hear my grandma ordering me to eat it whenever I was sick.) But as far as I know, any "evidence" that it works is purely anecdotal. I could be wrong. Is there any scientific evidence that vitamin C directly affects the length of your cold when taken after onset?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't know about colds specifically. I know there is a lot of scientific evidence about the positive health effects of Vitamin C, but I'm not sure about what it will do for colds after you already have them. I know it strengthens the immune system, but, specifically I'm not sure.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:MAIN RESULTS: Thirty trial comparisons involving 11,350 study participants contributed to the meta-analysis on the relative risk (RR) of developing a cold whilst taking prophylactic vitamin C. ...[notes separate analysis on subgroup of six trials involving a total of 642 marathon runners, skiers, and soldiers on sub-arctic exercises] ... Thirty comparisons involving 9676 respiratory episodes contributed to a meta-analysis on common cold duration during prophylaxis. ... Seven trial comparisons involving 3294 respiratory episodes contributed to the meta-analysis of cold duration during therapy with vitamin C initiated after the onset of symptoms. No significant differences from placebo were seen. Four trial comparisons involving 2753 respiratory episodes contributed to the meta-analysis of cold severity during therapy and no significant differences from placebo were seen. ... AUTHORS' CONCLUSIONS: The failure of vitamin C supplementation to reduce the incidence of colds in the normal population indicates that routine mega-dose prophylaxis is not rationally justified for community use. But evidence suggests that it could be justified in people exposed to brief periods of severe physical exercise or cold environments.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Vitamin C also helps you absorb more iron from your food and supplements.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
True, but other acids will do much the same thing.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
True as well, but Vitamin C is fairly easy and cheap to supplement in tandem or pair with iron-rich foods.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Orange juice. That's what I was always told to take my iron pills with.
That way you get vitamin C and citric acid.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
That's more expensive than c-fortified apple juice, though. I also like tomatoes, though-- tomatoes go well with beans, IMO.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Tomatoes go very well with beans.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Yes but orange juice has more deliciousness.
Especially the Simply Orange brand, which I find to be a tad on the expensive side for my own shopping budget, but it's so good. When/if they come out out with a Simply Apple, I'll give it a go and we'll see.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Zicam is useless too. That supposed clinical study was done by one researcher paid by Zicam, and his methods have been criticized. The only approval it received from the FDA was as a "homeopathic" remedy. Read up on homeopathy, and see what a lark it is. Having FDA approval does not mean that Zicam is legitimate medicine.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: When/if they come out out with a Simply Apple, I'll give it a go and we'll see.
It's good, but there is nowhere near the taste difference that Simply Orange has.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Neat! They don't carry that at my local grocery store! We have Simply Orange, Lemonade, Grapefruit and LIMEADE! But no apple. I guess it's relatively new but, come on, we get limeade and not apple juice?
I wonder if I can order it off Amazon's grocery store...
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Of course, I'm spoiled here in CA, with our farmers' markets that run year-round and our fresh cheap citrus. I picked up a motorized juicer at a yard sale for $1.50 and that's the only OJ I drink any more.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
(Oh, and as for bottled apple juice, Trader Joe's Gravenstien juice is simply without match. )
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I wonder if I can order it off Amazon's grocery store...
I doubt they carry chilled items.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
By the way, Airborne is marketed as a homeopathic remedy, too, just like Zicam. Here is how Webster's online dictionary defines "homeopathy": "a system of medical practice that treats a disease especially by the administration of minute doses of a remedy that would in healthy persons produce symptoms similar to those of the disease." In practice, the "medicine" is diluted so many times, it is statistically unlikely that a single molecule of the original substance is present. True believers also believe that you can just apply the diluted medicine to a picture of the diseased person, tree, or whatever, to effect a cure. In other words, anything approved as a homeopathic remedy is approved as a FOLK REMEDY with no guarantee of effectiveness, whatsoever.
As long as your product is not demonstrably harmful, you can get it approved by the FDA to be marketed as anything in the world you claim for it, if you call it homeopathic, wink wink! That is how companies with absolutely worthless, totally ineffective products, can market them "with FDA approval."
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: As long as your product is not demonstrably harmful, you can get it approved by the FDA to be marketed as anything in the world you claim for it, if you call it homeopathic, wink wink! That is how companies with absolutely worthless, totally ineffective products, can market them "with FDA approval."
That's not true. This is why that shrill HeadOn ad just keeps repeating "Apply directly to forehead!!!" They never actually claim it cures headaches on air. In print the rules might be different.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
What I find interesting is that products will say "for defense against colds" or whatever and then say in smaller print "this product makes no medicinal claims and is not intended to prevent, cure, or treat any disease or disorder."
Then why do you market it for defense against colds?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Because that way people buy it. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Some people do, anyway. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Many people. $100 million a year!
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
What do they claim for Airborne? I would never use a product marketed as a homeopathic remedy--but I see my sister has some. I read the box. What they claim is that it "supports the immune system." In another place it is called "immune-boosting." That is all. Hmph. Water supports the immune system. So does breathing deeply. See what a crock this is?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Airborne is herbal, not homeopathic.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: (Oh, and as for bottled apple juice, Trader Joe's Gravenstien juice is simply without match. )
Thanks, I'll give it a try. I've had mixed results with Trade Joe's stuff.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Really? I've only had one or two things from them that weren't really good, at least as good as more expensive brands of similar products (if you can get them elsewhere!) But then, I also steer clear of the really weird things.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ditto!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I tried some of their, I guess less traditional flavors of tea before discovering that, for me, anything other than green tea is odd beyond all reason. I don't mind a cup of Earl Grey once and awhile, but, mostly Green. Chocolate or vanilla tea, not so much.
My cousin told me to go there to get a bottle of wine that she suggested I might like, a bottle of Hogue, so maybe I'll get that and some juice. To be fair, I don't go there very often. My mom says they have really nice, fairly priced flowers.
Maybe I just need to look around more when I go.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Well, I'm signed up to get some cash out of this if it goes through.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Lyr, they also have chocolates that are teh delicious. Ask Boon (and her husband!) The chocolate orange sticks are seriously addictive. And they have all kinds of other great stuff, too. They have sandwich cookies that are BETTER THAN real Oreos (most don't come close) and are furthermore preservative-free and I think organic as well. (The same cookies also come in other flavors, too.) Their "Joe's Os" taste better than Cheerios, and again, preservative-free. They've got this incredible maple-pecan cluster cereal (think maple-pecan style Honey Bunches of Oats but SO MUCH BETTER) and their breads are great too, at least around here. They have some decent pre-packaged soups and meals, and much of their frozen stuff is yummers. Okay, I'm gonna stop before I go through the whole store or give myself a craving and end up dragging my mom there tomorrow after my appointment...
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Okay, I couldn't help it, one more thing. TJ's is THE place to go for dried fruits and nuts. Cheap, fresh, quality product like nowhere else.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Ooo, I love Honey Bunches of Oats. I'm thinking about getting a bowl right now as a matter of fact. I'll take a look at it.
I'll take a look at their breads too. I've yet to find a sweet nine grain as good as the ones we have at work for a decent price.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Their breads are made locally so they vary by region. They have a yummy sweet multigrain here but I don't know what you'll find at yours.
If you like the HBoO type cereal, they have other flavors too-- I think a vanilla almond flavor, and a toffee walnut or something... The maple pecan is our favorite, though. Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I saw in the store today that Airborn also has children's version, which is essentially candy, and an Anti-Allergy version which "supports healthy histamine levels."
It doesn't look like they're too worried about losing a few million, they're just expanding their brand!
This is why we need better science education in America.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I'll second all of the positive things that have been said about Trader Joe's--it's far and above my favorite grocery chain, and if the next place I live doesn't have one I'll be pretty disappointed.
I have almost a compulsion to try foods that are unlike things that I've had before, so I love the fact that Trader Joe's actively encourages their customers to return things that they don't like. I'd guess that I take advantage of this policy every couple of weeks or so. It works out well for me, since I can try stuff without feeling like I'm risking wasting my money, and it works out well for them because I end up liking and buying more of most of the things that I try.
Another nice thing about Trader Joe's is how well they treat their employees. They pay very, very well--a full time checker started at ~40k/year with some sort of health insurance the last time I checked (several years ago, now), and people higher in the food chain (so to speak) make dramatically more. Now, getting a full time job there isn't easy--there isn't a lot of turnover in those positions. The people I know at my local store who are full time employees all started out part time, and while their pay for part time workers isn't bad ($10 or 11/hr, I think), it isn't fantastic either.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
(Late) Thanks for the factoids, CT.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Rivka, whether or not Airborne contains herbal extracts or not is irrelevant to whether it is marketed as a "homeopathic remedy."
Notice this statement from The Spectrum, published by the University at Buffalo:
"Like Zicam, Airborne is an over-the-counter homeopathic cold remedy that claims to fortify the body's defenses against colds." (Emphasis supplied.)
quote:"Homeopathic "remedies" enjoy a unique status in the health marketplace: They are the only category of quack products legally marketable as drugs. This situation is the result of two circumstances. First, the 1938 Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, which was shepherded through Congress by a homeopathic physician who was a senator, recognizes as drugs all substances included in the Homeopathic Pharmacopeia of the United States. Second, the FDA has not held homeopathic products to the same standards as other drugs."
Notice this excerpt from an article on webmd.com about the refund Airborne has agreed to give people as part of a class-action lawsuit:
quote:The makers of Airborne have agreed to refund money to consumers as part of a $23.3 million settlement of a class-action lawsuit for false advertising. It does not admit wrongdoing or illegal conduct.
Products included are the Airborne Effervescent Health Formula, Airborne On-the-Go, Airborne Power Pixies, Airborne Nighttime, Airborne Jr., Airborne Gummi, and Airborne Seasonal (formerly sold as Airborne Seasonal Relief).
Airborne: The Road to the Lawsuit
Initially, Airborne ads touted its line of products as a way to prevent and treat colds; Airborne later toned down those claims and now calls the formulas immune boosters.
In February 2006, a report on national television questioned the validity of a clinical trial touted by Airborne as a study that offered proof that its products work. Soon after, the false advertising lawsuit was filed in 2006 by California law firms representing a consumer who protested that the formula did not work as advertised.
"One of their more outrageous claims is that you take it before entering a germy environment and you're instantly protected," David Schardt, senior nutritionist for the Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI), tells WebMD.
And, finally, It says on the Airborne box: "This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease." So what is it good for? Why are you buying it? They are saying this is NOT A COLD REMEDY OR PREVENTATIVE!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Rivka, whether or not Airborne contains herbal extracts or not is irrelevant to whether it is marketed as a "homeopathic remedy."
True. However, it has a great deal to do with possible efficacy: homeopathy is extreme quackery, while herbal medicines are a mixed bag.
Calling herbals homeopathic and v.v. is something that bugs me.
As for the line on the box, even those herbals which have had reliable studies done (St. John's Wort, for example) must have that.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:As long as your product is not demonstrably harmful, you can get it approved by the FDA to be marketed as anything in the world you claim for it, if you call it homeopathic, wink wink! That is how companies with absolutely worthless, totally ineffective products, can market them "with FDA approval."
First, calling something homeopathic is not enough to qualify it for the lower regulatory bar. A homeopathic drug is "Any drug labeled as being homeopathic which is listed in the Homeopathic Pharmacopeia of the United States (HPUS), an addendum to it, or its supplements. The potencies of homeopathic drugs are specified in terms of dilution, i.e., 1x (1/10 dilution), 2x (1/100 dilution), etc. Homeopathic drug products must contain diluents commonly used in homeopathic pharmaceutics. Drug products containing homeopathic ingredients in combination with non-homeopathic active ingredients are not homeopathic drug products."
Second, certain homeopathic may only be dispensed by prescription.
Third, if "a homeopathic drug is being offered for use (or promoted) significantly beyond recognized or customary practice of homeopathy" then fraud regulations come into play.
Further, there are numerous other regulations associated with homeopathic drugs, including registration of manufacturers and labeling requirements.
There's no question they don't receive the same oversight as OTC or prescription drugs, but your summary was very inaccurate.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
BTW, Airborne is NOT marketed as a homeopathic remedy, but rather as an herbal supplement. Those calling it "homeopathic" are using a much-expanded definition of the word.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
"Second, certain homeopathic may only be dispensed by prescription."
Why? I thought homeopathy was essentially dissolving things in water dozens and dozens of times. Why would you need a prescription for water pills?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Homeopathic treatments for certain diseases, such as cancer, can cause harm by not treating an otherwise treatable disease, so they at least want you to find a doctor willing to prescribe it. Since doctors have a host of regulations they have to deal with, this provides a regulatory check on dangerous uses of homeopathic drugs.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Rivka, whether or not Airborne contains herbal extracts or not is irrelevant to whether it is marketed as a "homeopathic remedy."
Notice this statement from The Spectrum, published by the University at Buffalo:
"Like Zicam, Airborne is an over-the-counter homeopathic cold remedy that claims to fortify the body's defenses against colds." (Emphasis supplied.)
It seems pretty clear to me that the authors of that article don't really know what "homeopathic" means—or even "herbal," for that matter, since most of the article is spent talking about Zicam. Not really surprising for a student publication. And that certainly doesn't mean that Airborne is actually marketed as a homeopathic drug.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Noemon: it's funny to read this thread and the In-N-Out thread in juxtaposition, and then think about my other favorite place, IKEA (also known for treating employees well, environmental and community responsibility, and happy, helpful people working in most locations.)
I think I'm beginning to sense a pattern about my favorite companies. Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Orange juice is wonderful. I love it. Simply Orange is probably the best.
But for health benefits, it's better to just eat an orange. OJ is full of calories. So are oranges but you get the fibre benefit of the pulp. As a bonus, a perfectly ripe orange is one of the best tasting things on the planet.
If you DO drink OJ, drink the pulpiest one you can find. "Baleen style" as I like to call it. It's still not as good as an orange, though.
However, if you just want to be happy and aren't on a diet, eat an orange AND drink orange juice. Yum.
(edited to add Coke)
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert: Why? I thought homeopathy was essentially dissolving things in water dozens and dozens of times. Why would you need a prescription for water pills?
Potentially more than dozens even. There is a good visual demonstration of that in Richard Dawkin's show on alternative medicine. The relevant bit is 25 minutes into this Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
In most homeopathic preparations, the dilution is such that there is less than a single part per MOLE of water. However, many also contain supposedly inactive ingredients, like alcohol.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Rivka, I agree with you that many herbs have genuine medicinal properties. It has been observed, for example, that lobelia contains four different antibiotics listed in standard pharmacopeias. I personally regard garlic as the most effective medicine you can take to prevent or treat cold or flu. It's active ingredient, allycin, is both antibiotic and antiviral. I also take 2.5 grams of vitamin C daily.
But as for a product being "marketed as a homeopathic remedy," I am talking about the kind of approval the USFDA gave the company that allows them to market their product. Zicam and Airborne received approval only as homeopathic remedies. That is the only way they can legally be marketed. They cannot claim to be actual medicines, because then they would have to pass rigorous requirements, including multiple phase studies terminating in human lab studies that are scientifically controlled and subject to outside scrutiny. This costs millions of dollars and takes years. Rest assured, neither Zicam nor Airborne troubled themselves to jump through these hoops. So they just applied as homeopathic remedies (i.e. folk remedies). The requirements to get approval this way are far, far less demanding and expensive.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
If you really get turned on by Homeopathic medicine, does that make you a Homeosexual?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I am talking about the kind of approval the USFDA gave the company that allows them to market their product.
Nope. Food supplements. DSHEA strikes again.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Zicam and Airborne received approval only as homeopathic remedies.
Airborne did not receive approval as a homeopathic remedy.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: homeopathic remedies (i.e. folk remedies)
Wrong. Try again.
Obviously those student journalists aren't the only ones who don't know what "homeopathic" means.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Airborne contains herbal extracts, amino acids, antioxidants, electrolytes, synthetic vitamins, and other ingredients. It is not just herbal.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Ron: The answer to that is "dietary supplement" (or "food supplement," as Rivka said above). "Homeopathy" does not mean "alternative medicine" or "folk remedy" or anything like that.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Homeopathic "medicines" characteristically contain some very minute, super-diluted ingredient. The FDA does allow some very limited health claims to be made for them. You can quibble about whether Airborne contains any minute, super-diluted ingredient. But this at least was the case for Zicam. I remember back during the trials of Zicam before the FDA board to gain approval for marketing as a homeopathic product.
Specific claims backed up by a clinical study were originally the case with Airborne. Then it was learned that the clinical study involved a lab staffed by two men hired by Airborne, organized for the sole purpose of performing this study, and the company was told to quit making any claims for their product being able to remedy or prevent colds or flu.
You will find Zicam and Airborne side-by-side in drugstore shelves, apart from traditional cold remedies. They represent "alternative" medicine.
Homeopathy does mean folk remedy to anyone who really understands what it is about. There is no scientific basis for homeopathy. There is no homeopathic medicine on the face of the earth that works, because homeopathy is nonsense, and cannot ever work. People only believe in it because it is a folk remedy. Of course, there may be some folk remedies that work, so it is actually insulting to folk remedies to call homeopathic medicines a folk remedy.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I've always been mad about Airborne. "Invented by a school teacher." Invented? How is it an invention? It's basically a vitamin supplement. If I put cod liver oil in an effervescent tablet, have I "invented" a new supplement? (Patent application already filed, suckers! )
Besides the bogus "invention" status I just felt like it was an extremely basic/ordinary product with nothing to distinguish it from the hundreds of other options on the vitamin shelf at the grocery store, other than Oprah Winfrey's blessing.
Between "a million little pieces", this Airborne lawsuit, and the other bogus memoir she recently endorsed, I can only hope that her ability to cause her minions to buy any product she endorses is diminished somewhat. Futilely, I'm sure.
(I'd gladly accept Oprah's endorsement for any book I write or my Sparkling Cod-ade invention, however. )
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Airborne contains herbal extracts, amino acids, antioxidants, electrolytes, synthetic vitamins, and other ingredients. It is not just herbal.
Fine. But it's not AT ALL homeopathic. Even if it contains minute amounts of some ingredient, it's not homeopathic - especially in the context of the FDA, which is the context you've been using the word.
Posted by Human (Member # 2985) on :
I use the stuff. I'm well aware that I'm probably paying for the placebo effect. Yet, that effect, and any effects the stuff may or may not have had, have kept some cold-type stuff away from me long enough for me to at least finish out the week, and sometimes longer.
I say, that if they stop advertising it as a cure, then they should keep making it. And I'll keep buying it. I don't so much care that it works because it's 'herbal' or because of vitamins, just that it works.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:If I put cod liver oil in an effervescent tablet, have I "invented" a new supplement? (Patent application already filed, suckers! )
It'll be a big hit with penguins, I'm sure.
As for me, I'm feeling slightly ill.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Human, the placebo effect is is something that you do within your own mind, that affects your body. If you could just get your mind to work that way without the crutch, you would be freer. I am not a member of the Christian Science "church," or whatever they call it. But they have built their whole religion around the idea of "mind cure."
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: It'll be a big hit with penguins, I'm sure.
That depends. Do penguins pop like seagulls do?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
OK Dagonee, you win. In the context of FDA approval, Airborne is marketed as a dietary supplement. But none of the ingredients are proven effective against colds or flu; so it is still basically being regarded as a folk remedy by people who use it to cure or prevent colds and flu. Even though the makers of Airborne have ceased making any such claims. And Zicam does say on the label that it is a "homeopathic" medicine.
Posted by Human (Member # 2985) on :
That's true, Ron, they have. However, may I remind you of the fact that the Christian Scientist denomination has come under fire repeatedly for ignoring actual medical solutions in favor of "faith healing". For example, there was the Twitchell case in 1986, in which two Christian Scientists allowed their two year old child to die painfully of peritonitis because they refused to go see a doctor. [Link][Link]
Also, the AMA has done a study showing that Christian Scientists were more likely to die of cancer or of preventable causes than those who believed in medical science, and that on average, their lifespans were two to four years less than the control group they were compared to. [link]
No offense, but at least Airborne doesn't recommend that you refuse medical help in favor of the healing power of Jesus Christ.
EDIT: For clarity and grammar.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I would argue that effective medicines are only effective because they assist the immune system built into your body by the Creator. Where the Christian Scientists are at fault, I believe, is in refusing the gifts of remedies the Creator has given us in the natural world. Virtually every medicine was first discovered in some plant or fungus. Even the active ingredient in aspirin comes from willow leaves. Also among those gifts through which the Creator mediates His grace to us, is the knowledge and skill of the surgeon, when you have a broken leg, or damage to internal organs caused in traffic accidents, etc. Even the lifestyle counsellor, who can advise you on how to eat a healthier diet, is a minister of God to those who receive them in faith and gratitude.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Out of interest, what would you say about a medicine that was produced via biochemical means and did not reproduce anything known to exist on Earth?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Virtually every medicine was first discovered in some plant or fungus.
This statement is untrue.
Posted by Human (Member # 2985) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Even the lifestyle counsellor, who can advise you on how to eat a healthier diet, is a minister of God to those who receive them in faith and gratitude.
*dryly* Somehow, I doubt you'd consider my counselor here to be a minister of God, seeing as she definitely doesn't have a problem with several things you find objectionable.
And while I'm grateful to her, I don't really receive her in faith. Should I still listen to her advice?
Also, then, if you found out a medicine that you were taking was completely constructed and had no natural basis, would you stop taking it? What about drugs that combat AIDS and HIV? How about birth control drugs? Then there's the vaccine against HPV, which is an STD. Is that a gift from God, too? Where do you draw the line between what is Godly and what isn't?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I would argue that effective medicines are only effective because they assist the immune system built into your body by the Creator.
I find that immune suppressants can be rather effective medicines Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
True, that. Not every medication assists the immune system, because not all medications treat infections.
Posted by Human (Member # 2985) on :
Oooh, that's right. Anti-inflammatories, too, and blood pressure meds, not to mention steroids, painkillers, contraceptives, abortifacients, that stuff they use to induce labor, and psychoactives! None of those involve the immune system.
Though you could say that all of them are designed to control/fix something that does occur naturally.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Even the medicines that are artificially constructed, are constructed either as analogs or modifications of natural compounds, or designed to conform to the designs we have first seen in nature. Ibuprophen (which is an anti-inflammatory) was not created out of the clear blue. Logical deduction along the lines of what was likely to work, guided the researchers.
And yes, sometimes our immune systems are faulty, and are part of the problem. Such as with allergies. But we are still doing the work of God when we seek to ameliorate such things. Antihistamines, respiratory stimulants and cardiovascular dilators, were first discovered in nature. Digitalis, which can regulate irregular heart beats, was found in the flower, foxglove.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Even the medicines that are artificially constructed, are constructed either as analogs or modifications of natural compounds, or designed to conform to the designs we have first seen in nature.
Again: what would you say about an effective medicine that had no natural analogue?
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Well, yes, a number of medications are synthesized from natural compounds. You can make any number of organic molecules from a variety of feedstocks -- they don't pop into existence. I don't see what your point is there, though. Often, the end result of chemical synthesis is nothing like the starting ingredients. Take a look at the synthesis of Tamiflu, for instance.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Even the medicines that are artificially constructed, are constructed either as analogs or modifications of natural compounds, or designed to conform to the designs we have first seen in nature.
Again: what would you say about an effective medicine that had no natural analogue?
Childhood leukemia of the ALL type strikes 2000-2500 kids in the US yearly. It used to be a death sentence. Now, with medications that have no "natural" analogue, the cure rate is about 80%.
There are many other examples, but that is one of the most dramatic. I, for one, would not hold that those children shouldn't have their lives saved just because I was committed to using medications only based on things found "naturally" in the world.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:designed to conform to the designs we have first seen in nature.
This statement is also untrue.
There are plenty of treatments that have no 'natural analogue' — I wonder what you think of stuff like radiation therapy.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I dislike the tone (and disagree with some of the theses) of this article, but I thought it relevant.
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Lyrhawn! I don't doubt that vitamin C does have all sorts of benefits to the human body. I was joking about all the hype that vitamin C can make your colds disappear. (I can still hear my grandma ordering me to eat it whenever I was sick.) But as far as I know, any "evidence" that it works is purely anecdotal. I could be wrong. Is there any scientific evidence that vitamin C directly affects the length of your cold when taken after onset?