I was browsing slashdot, as I do once a day or so and was taken aback for this. As headlines can be misleading, I followed their link to the article. See for yourself...
Well... you know, as a poor Third-World denizen (TM) hailing from brazilian rainforests, I don't know much about American Universities' regulations about that, but trying to expell a student for setting up a study group in Facebook is very wrong (IMHO) in so many levels it's hard to even begin.
What do you think about it?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I think the details about what went on in the facebook group will determine whether this was cheating. The assignment told students to work independently, and the invitation for the group read, "If you request to join, please use the forms to discuss/post solutions to the chemistry assignments. Please input your solutions if they are not already posted." That doesn't sound independent to me.
The principle defense seems to be "this is just like study groups." However, if those study groups are also against the rules, then the real difference here is the record of the cheating, rather than the cheating itself.
Again, whether cheating actually occurred depends on the details of what went on in the facebook group.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
The student is no doubt right that this would have set off administrators:
quote:"If you request to join, please use the forms to discuss/post solutions to the chemistry assignments. Please input your solutions if they are not already posted."
And rightly so. That would be cheating. If, however, it was really a back and forth solution, with no complete answers posted, the student might have a case.
The students should not have put up such a stupid message. The administrators were reasonable in taking action about a group that said on its front page that people were posting answers. There should be some sort of appeal process where the student can show that it really was like a study group, but the burden of proof is now on his shoulders.
edit: and it looks like Dagonee has beat me to the particularly questionable part while I was posting Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
Maybe I have a grip with it because whenever I assign any homework to my students (high school or College) I assume they will discuss the subject amongst themselves.
About the quote: Maybe it was posted to warn forum users to not derail the topic.
Well... as I said before... what do I know?
Edited to add: And... if it was a real-life study group would it be really persecuted? Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
If the group was created with the intention of breaking the "work independently" rule for this specific class, I think he's screwed.
It seems like the teacher is going to great lengths to make these assignments individual (giving out different sets of questions), probably so he can give a fair homework grade.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
If people were telling other people the answers for them to copy and the administration found out about it, yes.
The group's front page said they were cheating. If they weren't, they need to show it, but taking action about a group that outright says they are cheating is reasonable.
I wouldn't have any problem with a study group organized on facebook.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: I wouldn't have any problem with a study group organized on facebook.
Right. But study group DOES NOT EQUAL "can I copy your paper"! (And I don't know how many times I tried to explain that back when I was teaching! )
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: If the group was created with the intention of breaking the "work independently" rule for this specific class, I think he's screwed.
Even if that was the intention, is expulsion really the proper first step for the university to take? From what I've seen so far, I would say that it is not, especially if offline study groups with a similar function commonly occur in the school.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
According to my school's stated policy, expulsion is the first step. There is a no tolerance policy and it is supposed to be, you cheat, you're gone. Whether that actually happens...
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
It certainly happened where I went to college. Certainly there were people who cheated who didn't get caught, but those who did went through a trial process with the honor court and were expelled if found guilty.
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
sorry again... I have a hard time believing it's fair (I do believe it happends, but still...).
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
He hasn't even been expelled, he has an expulsion hearing, which could presumably decide upon some lesser punishment in lieu of expulsion.
I mean, imagine you're the school, and you have an established policy to expel those who cheat in courses. A professor reports a student is listed as the administrator of a facebook group that says on the front page that people are supposed to post homework answers there. What would you do?
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I think expulsion is a ridiculous punishment for this behavior anyway, especially considering LOTS of students "cheat" on this very low "homework questions" level (I had a similar class--and don't remember a single person who didn't "get help" on a few questions once or twice, myself included--even though it was usually people asking me for help). This isn't high-level plagiarism or cheating on tests that are worth 40% of the class grade. It's homework questions, which are given out to help the students learn--and making us work independently doesn't deter cheating, it deters learning.
As for this guy's case, why should only the administrator be punished--people who joined the group are just as culpable, aren't they? Do we have any hard evidence of him or anyone else actually copying answers on assignments? Is it against the rules to post your homework questions and answers on any website? Students are allowed to use their textbooks and other online resources, right? I think it's an extremely grey area, and that expulsion is unfair until they have much clearer rules regarding online interaction.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
I think it depends on the professor's policies. If a professor says "Collaborating on homework is not allowed in this class," then collaborating is cheating and should be punished according to school policy. In this case, it doesn't matter whether or not the professor *should* allow collaboration to help students learn.
I worked for the writing lab when I was an undergrad, and the help I gave students could never be interpreted as cheating or doing their work for them. However, there were two or three professors who asked that their students *not* use the writing lab. If I had helped a student from one of their classes, then the help I gave--which was mostly teaching--would have been cheating. We would have undergone an honor court trial if discovered, and probably would have been expelled. Since I knew that in advance, I definitely couldn't make the argument, "But it's a stupid rule!"
Collaboration can be a great way to learn. So can working independently. Sometimes teachers want to know what you can do on your own, and collaboration makes that impossible to determine.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I think expulsion is a ridiculous punishment for this behavior anyway, especially considering LOTS of students "cheat" on this very low "homework questions" level (I had a similar class--and don't remember a single person who didn't "get help" on a few questions once or twice, myself included--even though it was usually people asking me for help). This isn't high-level plagiarism or cheating on tests that are worth 40% of the class grade. It's homework questions, which are given out to help the students learn--and making us work independently doesn't deter cheating, it deters learning.
Boy, this is a big paragraph of irrelevance, Launchywiggin.
First of all, it doesn't really matter if lots of students cheat in this fashion-and yes, it's cheating, not "cheating". Cheating is a word that obviously applies here, whether or not it's socially accepted.
Second, so I'm puzzled by your reference to bigger assignments. Is the question of whether it's cheating or not resolved by how crucial the assignment is? I mean, could I cheat on an entire homework assignment and not have it be as much cheating as if I cheated on two or three test questions?
Your deterrence of learning objection is silly, too, because, again, this particular community was-at least in its statement-committed to cooperating on the answers, not just on the process.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I think expulsion is a ridiculous punishment in this case--that's the main point I'm trying to make.
I think it's silly to draw a single line for "cheating" without looking at the severity of the crime. Do you want to be expelled for accidentally lifting your head during a test and seeing your neighbors paper?
I think the fact that these rules are inconsistently enforced is an issue that needs to be addressed--especially relating to the online world.
I understand the value of having independent assignments in addition to collaborative ones. I think, in the case of homework, which is usually reinforcing subjects that have just recently been learned, that collaborative work is more valuable to education.
I don't deny that what SOME of these students MIGHT have done could be wrong. My thoughts are relating to these issues in general in addition to this particular facebook case.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I do agree that expulsion in general rules against cheating aren't much enforced where doing so would involve a very great deal of prying.
Accidentally lifting your head and seeing your neighbor's paper would not be cheating. Cheating requires intent.
However, it doesn't matter what your personal opinions on the subject are. If their teacher instructed them to do their homework on their own, and instead they collaborated on it-even if they didn't just get the answers from the Facebook community-they were still in the wrong.
You don't get to just set your own rules in a classroom environment.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Also, let's consider that he's a first year student, and it's entirely possible that he may please stupidity, and be right in doing so.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: However, it doesn't matter what your personal opinions on the subject are. If their teacher instructed them to do their homework on their own, and instead they collaborated on it-even if they didn't just get the answers from the Facebook community-they were still in the wrong.
You don't get to just set your own rules in a classroom environment.
We aren't just discussing whether he is in the wrong, though. Even if he is in the wrong, I simply can't see that the punishment is appropriate.
Posted by Slim (Member # 2334) on :
I would think expulsion is appropriate, at least it would be at my college. The cheating policy at the university is usually made quite clear in the syllabus the first day.
I remember my history teacher said he was grading our reports when he found one that was plagiarized. He's normally a fun teacher, but that day he was upset. I've never seen him upset any other time. He said, "That student WILL fail the class, the report will go to the dean of admissions, and that student MAY be expelled. I am only half way through grading. If ANYONE ELSE has plagiarized, you can come to my office after class and get your report back. You will receive a ZERO for the report, but you still have a chance at passing the class, and you will not be expelled."
Cheating at a university is serious stuff. Do you want your ______ to be someone who cheated in _______ to get his/her degree?
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
Exactly what Slim said. The cheating policy was very clear where I went to school. I presume it was at the university in question as well. The whole point (at least at my school) is that it was an honor code. Violating an honor code "a little" is still a major violation.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
quote:Accidentally lifting your head and seeing your neighbor's paper would not be cheating. Cheating requires intent.
It's your word against the teacher who saw you do it. Teacher wins.
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
Yes, let's take the most pessimistic viewpoint possible and claim that it's simultaneously the most likely. Any college student understands the appropriate way to act while taking exams and everyone that's proctoring them was once there taking similar exams. You're assigning far far to much malice to the instructors.
From his comments in the linked article this guy clearly doesn't understand acceptable ways to work with other people on his assignments. (I suppose to be generous he may understand but just have picked a moron level description for his facebook group, there doesn't seem to be anyway to tell.)
Frankly this story wouldn't have appeared in the media if Facebook wasn't involved, and the only role the internet played here was to provide the record that allowed him to be caught. Which really means that this is no more newsworthy than any other student being accused of cheating.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Eduardo_Sauron: ... Well... you know, as a poor Third-World denizen (TM) hailing from brazilian rainforests, I don't know much about American Universities' regulations about that ...
Ryerson is Canadian BTW. Not that is really affects much of the thread so far, but you know, credit where credit is due Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Slim: I would think expulsion is appropriate, at least it would be at my college. The cheating policy at the university is usually made quite clear in the syllabus the first day.
...
Cheating at a university is serious stuff. Do you want your ______ to be someone who cheated in _______ to get his/her degree?
In this case, I seriously doubt that the cheating policy addressed this particular situation at all clearly. Maybe it will in the future.
Besides, most schools just have their cheating policies posted, and I certainly have never read ours.
And in this case, the question is whether this is in the spirit of cheating. I would reserve judgment of someone who was caught in this particular situation.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:It's your word against the teacher who saw you do it. Teacher wins.
Oh, I see. So the equivalent of a false conviction means you're actually guilty of a transgression that requires intent?
Just because a teacher says I cheated does not make it true, even if it often means I am punished for cheating.
Posted by adfectio (Member # 11070) on :
This is something I've never quite understood about the way many schools are run. The 'zero tolerance' thing, I mean.
I understand expelling the student it this has been a constant problem, or even just happened before. But to expel the student on the first hint that they may be receiving help in the class? To me, the fact that he was running the group makes it look like he was giving more help than he was getting.
Granted, it all depends on the context of the homework, and the group itself. If the group was more of a study group, than I don't understand the problem. But if it was a situation where they just copied each others answers, then I guess I can understand some punishment.
But why not just take about the 10% of the grade that the homework was worth?
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
There is no indication that Ryerson has a zero tolerance policy. Look at their code of conduct. The policy explicity lays out multiple levels of response.
We don't have enough information to judge whether expulsion is a fit punishment in this case nor do we have enough information to rule it out.
Let's be clear on one thing though: providing answers to other students or copying answers from other students is cheating.
If you are unable to study with others without doing these things, you'd best not study with others then. It is perfectly possible to help each other without copying or providing answers. You'll note that this is the sort of help generally given at course office hours or in university tutoring centers.
As to whether expulsion is generally an acceptable outcome from cheating, do you honestly believe that there are college students that don't understand that cheating is unacceptable?
quote:Besides, most schools just have their cheating policies posted, and I certainly have never read ours.
What's your point here? Your not reading it doesn't mean anything. "I didn't know" isn't an excuse for academic dishonesty.
Posted by adfectio (Member # 11070) on :
quote:Originally posted by HollowEarth: As to whether expulsion is generally an acceptable outcome from cheating, do you honestly believe that there are college students that don't understand that cheating is unacceptable?
Yes. More commonly they don't think of it as cheating. But a large number of students technically cheating all the while thinking they are doing nothing wrong.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
adfectio: this isn't "the first hint that they may have been receiving help in class", this is discovering the person is the administrator/organizer for a group with the openly stated purpose of helping people copy answers. That's a bit different.
As for taking about the 10% of the grade that homework was worth, that's an absurdly lenient response to cheating.
Posted by adfectio (Member # 11070) on :
I guess we just don't agree here. As I've said in several other places, and anyone who knows me in person can tell you, I'm a huge believe in second chances.
I admit that cheating is wrong. I don't mean to argue that point. From reading that article, It doesn't even sound like there was any cheating. To me it sounds more like bad wording in the introduction to the group.
However, I just don't see how that is any more absurd than expelling him because he took over for someone in an online group where they were trying to help each other do better in a class by helping them work through the problems.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by HollowEarth:
quote:Besides, most schools just have their cheating policies posted, and I certainly have never read ours.
What's your point here? Your not reading it doesn't mean anything. "I didn't know" isn't an excuse for academic dishonesty.
My point, then, would be that the point I was addressing is too simplistic. The idea that the university's policies are made explicitly clear is probably wrong. This case may be one of a student who broke the rules, but who was not being "dishonest." Dishonesty- and it's interesting that you used that specific word- implies that he is fully aware of the rule, and chose to break it. That may not be the case, in which case he may not be dishonest.
I mentioned myself because, although I've never been in this situation, I can imagine myself in it, and I would not have been forced or even strongly encouraged to know the exact rules. So my point, though I guess you don't want to see it, is that being dumb is not the same as being dishonest. I would personally prefer that this student is educated by his experience- it seems pretty clear that he's trying to do well. I think we need more people like him, and he needs to be allowed to be 18 and slightly clueless.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I'm fine with him not being expelled. And, he hasn't been expelled yet. Heck, depending on the quality of the reporting, that "expulsion hearing" might really just be a general disciplinary hearing. We don't know too much.
10% off a grade is not a second chance. It is getting away with it. Just barely having a chance of passing that class might be a second chance. Only failing that class and having to retake it would be a second chance. Only being suspended for a semester and being able to re-enroll after would be a second chance (which is what most 'expulsion' turns into, provided the student appeals for reconsideration).
All that's clear from the article is that he's denying that it was cheating, and of course he would do that. It might even be true, but he's going to have to show that.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: I think expulsion is a ridiculous punishment for this behavior anyway, especially considering LOTS of students "cheat" on this very low "homework questions" level
I didn't when I was in school.
Lots of people doing something wrong=People should not faces consequences for doing something wrong? That equation just doesn't wash.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:But why not just take about the 10% of the grade that the homework was worth?
Hell, you could still get an 'A' with just that penalty.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Besides, most schools just have their cheating policies posted
I doubt this is true. It wasn't true at any of the colleges I or any of my friends went to. There was a specific presentation covering specific types of cheating. Just because your school didn't do this doesn't mean that "most" schools don't.
Moreover, the syllabus in this class said to work independently. There's no notice issue here.
quote:he took over for someone in an online group where they were trying to help each other do better in a class by helping them work through the problems.
There's significant evidence that he was asking for actual solutions to be posted. That's significantly more than helping someone work through the problems.
Moreover, even helping someone work through the problems was cheating in this class.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Academic offences are very serious. Those of us who work through our degrees honestly and ethically and who genuinely love academia take cheating almost as a personal offence. I say "almost" because really it's bigger than us personally. A friend of mine found three plagiarised essays in a stack of marking when she was a TA and cried for days, because irrationally, we think it's our fault.
But there really isn't much of a grey area with cheating. "I didn't know" isn't much of an excuse - school policies on cheating are easy to find and it is the student's responsibility to make sure they understand. Every single undergrad class I took discussed the cheating/plagiarism policy on the first day of class. Every syllabus I was handed had a copy of the policy attached. Every professor said outright "If you do not understand this policy, it is your responsibility to get help understanding it." When a student submits an assignment there is an implicit understanding that by submitting, the student is declaring that they have not cheated.
I have no patience or tolerance with cheating. The requirements for this assignment were clearly stated, above and beyond the school policy. A study group was cheating, and "posting answers" is always cheating, no matter how often other students get away with it. Expulsion is not too severe, especially considering he'll probably weasel himself back in within a term or two. I know the kindest he'd get from me would be a failure for the class.
Posted by cassv746 (Member # 11173) on :
Reading that article to me didn't seem like the guy did anything wrong. He was deemed an administrator of the group. After he had joined from what I gathered. So why isn't the person that was admin before him taking the heat too? This in itself means nothing aside from on the right hand side of the group the admin would be him. Why aren't all the other students who participated in this group being punished as severely as he is? Are they being punished at all?
The way the invitation to the group was worded says academic misconduct to me. However the link to the article says "Still, said Neale, "no one did post a full final solution. It was more the back and forth that you get in any study group.""
How is this different then getting together with a group of your friends and asking each other for help on how to start a question you don't understand?
I'm just trying to understand this. I'm not trying to start or fuel any arguments.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:However the link to the article says "Still, said Neale, "no one did post a full final solution. It was more the back and forth that you get in any study group.""
Which is evidence that will be presented at the hearing, I'm sure.
Still, that in an of itself is a violation of the rules of the assignment.
quote:How is this different then getting together with a group of your friends and asking each other for help on how to start a question you don't understand?
No one is saying it's different, except that this is more easily discoverable. Both are academic misconduct given the instructions for the assignment.
Posted by cassv746 (Member # 11173) on :
Ok, that makes more sense. I don't really know how I feel about it because I'm kind of split. We'll see what happens on Tuesday I suppose.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
quote:Just because a teacher says I cheated does not make it true, even if it often means I am punished for cheating.
Of course you're not guilty--but in a zero-tolerance world, you're still expelled. I'm giving the example to show that we need to look closer instead of slapping a "cheating" label on every case.
quote:Lots of people doing something wrong=People should not faces consequences for doing something wrong? That equation just doesn't wash.
Totally agreed. Did anyone say that?
There IS a middle ground to this argument that doesn't involve cheating students that weasel their way through the system OR malicious teachers that are out to get any student who looks funny.
After looking at most of the points of view, I think that there are too many students that cheat who don't get caught, and go through life thinking it's ok to do that. I do think the standards should be more strictly enforced so students have a better understanding of personal responsibility. I think that until those standards are clearer and better enforced--that expulsion is an unfair punishment in this particular case, because so much is unclear.
I think that the "F" this student received is the correct punishment for his negligence.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Of course you're not guilty--but in a zero-tolerance world, you're still expelled. I'm giving the example to show that we need to look closer instead of slapping a "cheating" label on every case.
Zero-tolerance does not mean draconian penalty, Launchywiggin. That's pretty obvious, although often in practice zero-tolerance penalties are pretty serious.
Anyway, your example is specious. You're not going to be expelled for looking up and seeing someone else's paper once.
quote:I think that the "F" this student received is the correct punishment for his negligence.
It's hard to take you seriously when you say you take this example of cheating seriously when you label it 'negligence'.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:Besides, most schools just have their cheating policies posted
I doubt this is true. It wasn't true at any of the colleges I or any of my friends went to. There was a specific presentation covering specific types of cheating. Just because your school didn't do this doesn't mean that "most" schools don't.
Moreover, the syllabus in this class said to work independently. There's no notice issue here.
I agree on the syllabus, but I don't think you can speak for all of your friends that way, particularly because a university's cheating policy is probably going to a lot to read. Have you asked all your friends if they were given presentations or were spoken to directly about cheating? It just seems unlikely that you would know if they had.
I remember my high school policy, which I did have to read, being copious, and being part of a 100 page book of conduct. My university is also a very big one- my high school was only 1,000 students. At no time in my university experience have I been all together with the members of my class, or even all the members of my majors, it would be logistically impossible. Now, I do remember going over cheating and the consequences at orientation, but I wasn't educated on the full policy. Then I've had teachers mention at the beginnings of classes that cheaters will be referred to Academic Judicial Affairs, but no word there on policy.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
ok, Rakeesh. Thank you for your opinion. You could very well be right. I'm glad you don't disagree with my main points regarding looking closer at the case regarding the penalty, whether you're taking me seriously or not.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I agree on the syllabus, but I don't think you can speak for all of your friends that way, particularly because a university's cheating policy is probably going to a lot to read. Have you asked all your friends if they were given presentations or were spoken to directly about cheating? It just seems unlikely that you would know if they had.
I should have clarified it as "any of my friends who I knew in college," which accounted for a couple dozen four-year schools. I had reason to know because I did a survey of the subject for a project I worked on.
Moreover, your assumption that most colleges are more like yours is still just that - an assumption.
Note that I haven't said most colleges do have such presentations. I said I doubt it's true that most colleges just have their policy posted.
quote:At no time in my university experience have I been all together with the members of my class, or even all the members of my majors, it would be logistically impossible.
This isn't necessary at all for the policy to be presented to all the students in the college (excluding those who purposefully skip such a presentation, of course).
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
At the school I am currently at, students sign on every homework, essay and test that they understand and affirm the honor code. At the beginning of the semester, in order to register, you must sign the same statement and they also include in that one that even if you don't sign it on an assignment, you are still held to that.
Posted by cassv746 (Member # 11173) on :
My professors have just started including it in the course syllabus.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Dag, well if you did a survey on the subject, that makes more sense. It may be simply a matter of my not remembering most of the borientation we were given when I was freshman.
I also recently returned from a semester at a school in England where literally NO orientation to the school was ever given, but then I was an exchange student, and I never went out of my way to find out the rules, because I knew within reason that I wasn't going to be in danger of breaking them.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Every class I've had has at least one notice on the syllabus that refers students to the academic misconduct section in our student handbook. It's my responsibility to read the entire handbook, and the syllabus of EVERY class, not just some, has reminded me of that.
Most of my English classes go a step further and actually quote the policy on plagiarism in the syllabus.
I have had professors that encouraged us to do homework together and said outright if we had copies of tests from previous semsters, it was fine to study them. And, I've had professors that insisted all papers be written independently and all homework done independently. As an adult in college, I assumed it was up to me to know what was appropriate and what was not. I think any 18 year old should be mature enough to do the same.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: Every class I've had has at least one notice on the syllabus that refers students to the academic misconduct section in our student handbook. It's my responsibility to read the entire handbook, and the syllabus of EVERY class, not just some, has reminded me of that.
Most of my English classes go a step further and actually quote the policy on plagiarism in the syllabus.
Same here. I also read it aloud on the first day of class.
Nearly every other term I'd still get someone who insisted they had no idea that it wasn't okay to copy directly from other sources without attribution. "I had no idea!" "Nobody ever told me!" Such wide-eyed innocence.
The saddest, really, was someone who block-quoted from the textbook without any citations (and not just a phrase, or a line, or single paragraphs, but several paragraphs in a row). Now these were from chapters that hadn't been assigned, but you know, I had read the book.
The funniest was the 4-page essay with huge side margins -- each of which was wider than the center column of text.
This is why instructors of all kinds tend to get dour, sour, and pendantic as the years go on.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote: In a landmark ruling on Internet use, a disciplinary panel at Ryerson has ruled the first-year engineering student should not be drummed out for helping run a Facebook study group in chemistry last fall, and ordered his passing mark in the course restored.
In a seven-page ruling, the engineering faculty appeals committee found no proof the Facebook site actually led to cheating by any of its 147 users, even though it invited them to "post solutions" to homework that was worth 10 per cent of the final mark.
But the committee ruled that because the site provided "the potential for large-scale cheating," Avenir should get zero on that 10 per cent portion – which won't change his passing grade – and that he attend a workshop on academic integrity.
Hmmmm, seems like a slap on the wrist even after all this. Personally, if I graduated from Ryerson, I'd be pissed. But since I'm not and I may one day have to compete with Ryerson grads, meh ...
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I'm sad to say I'm not surprised. I'm starting to be in a place where I get to hear faculty whinging, and this is a biggie: admin not supporting faculty during grade dsputes.
For shame, Ryerson.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
^ What she said.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
They "found no proof that the Facebook group actually led to cheating." Given that, and given Ryerson's policy linked on the first page, I don't see how expulsion would have been appropriate. He would have been expelled on suspicion of cheating.
*
It's relevant that this happened in the engineering faculty. Even if cheating did occur, we aren't talking about plagiarizing an essay. Assignment problems are intended to help you get your head around particular concepts. If you cheat -- as distinct from 'collaborate' -- on your assignments and don't develop the necessary understanding of the concepts, you'll fail the exams and thus the course. In my experience, engineering midterms are worth 30-40% of your grade, finals 60-70%, and take-home assignments between 0 and 10%.
I hope this case serves as a wake-up call to Canadian engineering faculties, because what they should be doing is encouraging students to collaborate and help one another understand difficult concepts -- especially because oftentimes the professors and even TAs are incapable of explaining the concepts in ways that the students can understand. "Clearly, the answer is X; it's trivial!" was altogether too common in my experience with math professors in particular and they often left us shaking our heads. I frequently had study groups with friends and we all helped one another develop the grasp of the concepts necessary to pass exams.
That type of experience is vastly more relevant to the role of an engineer in the workplace than the lecturer 'transmission of knowledge' model employed at the postsecondary level in engineering. Engineering faculties need to be encouraging and supporting this, not condemning it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by twinky: They "found no proof that the Facebook group actually led to cheating." Given that, and given Ryerson's policy linked on the first page, I don't see how expulsion would have been appropriate.
Agreed, actually.
However, IMO he should have failed the class.
quote:Originally posted by twinky: He would have been expelled on suspicion of cheating.
No, because he was soliciting cheating.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
He didn't start the Facebook group. He joined it, and then later took over administration of the group -- basically allowing him to do things like set the tag line for the group and whether administrators or users can send mass messages to the entire group.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
A point.
Personally, I think every member of the group should have failed the class.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I'd be more inclined to give every member of the group a zero on the assignment provided they were a first-time offender.
However, I also hope that this professor and others like him adjust their teaching practices rather than simply insisting that every student work alone on everything. The goal should be learning, not jumping through stupid hoops.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by twinky: However, I also hope that this professor and others like him adjust their teaching practices rather than simply insisting that every student work alone on everything. The goal should be learning, not jumping through stupid hoops.
Assuming there was not some specific reason for the "no working with anyone" rule, I agree. Thank goodness my math and science profs all encouraged study groups -- many gave group projects.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: A point.
Personally, I think every member of the group should have failed the class.
That's about what I feel. Expulsion is a bit extreme for a first-time thing, but failing the class is quite appropriate.
I do agree with twinky on his pedagogy points, though. Everyone should probably be learning from this.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I've had math professors say that students are free to copy all the answers they want on homework (but mention that its probably a bad idea). The homework was a small, but not irrelevant, portion of the grade. The professor viewed it as a way to give those who didn't take the time to understand more rope to hang themselves, and to let those who were really busy occasionally slide on the homework.
That was a fun class.
(edit: I think it happened twice, or maybe three times; I'm thinking of one time in particular where it worked well with the class dynamic).
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
My favorite math teacher didn't assign problems. He told you where the problems could be located and suggested that you do as many as you needed to (with whomever you needed to) to get the concepts. The grades were based on the exams. If you did badly on an exam, and you brought him a large selection of the problems you'd done, he would look over your work and would let you retake a different version of the exam if he thought that you should've done better.
I rarely did problems outside of class and generally got As and Bs on the exam, but the one time that I seriously messed up an exam, I went home and did a bunch of problems and brought them back to him so I could retake the test. By the time I took it a second time, I'd learned so much from the problems that I did substantially better.
If the goal is for people to actually learn things, it seems to me that his methods worked really, really well.
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
quote:Originally posted by dean: I rarely did problems outside of class and generally got As and Bs on the exam, but the one time that I seriously messed up an exam, I went home and did a bunch of problems and brought them back to him so I could retake the test. By the time I took it a second time, I'd learned so much from the problems that I did substantially better.
Your actions here are exactly why this is a terrible idea. Your refusal to study before the exam is more reason that you shouldn't get a do over than reason that you should.
No doubt this policy is adored by students, but it really seems like enabled cheating.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
As a (former HS) teacher, I sort of agree with HE's assessment of the problems with the policy. (Although calling it cheating is rather over the top.) One thing a student should be learning is study skills and self-discipline. Then again, if they haven't gotten those by the time they hit college, it may be too late . . .
OTOH, as a student I would have loved it. But it would have fed my tendencies towards laziness AND procrastination.
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
I didn't "refuse" to study before an exam-- I generally didn't need to. At one point, my assessment of the degree to which I understood the material was faulty, but it was quickly corrected because instead of just saying, "oh, I messed up that test, nothing I can do," I went home and worked at understanding the material. Since it wasn't just a plain old fail, it encouraged me to go back and learn it properly rather than shrugging and going on, which I think was the professor's goal. And, honestly, in order to retake the exam, I had to do the equivalent of about six hours worth of problems. I think that he told us once that very few of his students ever took him up on his offer to retake the exam, but then very few of his students didn't do well on his exams.
I liked the way he taught math. I wasn't very mathematically inclined-- leaning more towards English and history-- but most of his class was geared towards using what you know already to figure out another way of solving problems. He generally wrote out a problem and gave us five or ten minutes to see what we could figure out. I learned a lot more from those five or ten minutes than I think I would've learned by doing more examples of stuff I already understood.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
On the "facebook" side of this debate, I would completely disagree with the idea that being a member of a group makes you responsible for what that group is doing.
Facebook is NOT reality. It's just more of the internet. As an intelligent human being, I know not to trust ANYTHING I read or see on the internet unless it's coming from a VERY reliable source. Facebook isn't that. Photos can be altered, people can lie about themselves--they can have their profiles sabotaged or faked.
I do understand the implications of being careful about what you put on the internet about yourself. I'm sure this kid has learned his lesson, too--even if he did "get off easy", so to speak. I would rather him go free than be convicted of a crime that they couldn't prove he committed.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
but Launchywiggin!... All we have to do, as you know from the facebook group, is to go to the SAME GAS STATION for the next month. If we all avoid the big chains, like Shell and Chevron, and go to the smaller operations like 76 and Arco. This will send the big oil companies into a panic!!! Nevermind that domestic automobiles account for a small portion of their sales, they'll be forced to lower prices! This plan is absolutely foolproof! Except for the fact that we'll all still be consuming the same amount of oil from the same sources, thus never altering the demand and never affecting the price-per-barrel of any of the oil we use...
But still, facebook has some wonderful things to contribute on the subject of macroeconomics.
And being a part of that group would mean that I am, by definition, not a cheater but an idiot.
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