I have been arguing with some friends about whether what the kid did was really mature or really childish. And the comments on the video seem pretty split too. So, at the risk of splitting the opinion even farther, what do you folks think?
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
I don't think his bar mitzvah was the appropriate place to give that commentary. He is certainly allowed to have those feelings, but that is not the appropriate time to bring it up.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I'm not familiar with bar mitzfahs but as a general speech, I thought it was pretty honest and fairly well done for his age. Judging by the laughter in the reception, it didn't seem like a horrible choice, although those that were offended may have kept quiet.
What is a bar mitzfah speech supposed to be about?
Edit to add: If the intro on this version is correct, evidentially his parents were not upset either. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96ShJyInb5g Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: What is a bar mitzfah speech supposed to be about?
It is generally about the portion of the bible that the bar mitzvah boy just read, or some related area of bible scholarship. The bar mitzvah speech is classically a piece of bible scholarship, although it certainly isn't always.
I've heard some pretty un-scholarly speeches.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
I just couldn't stop staring at his jewfro. I never gave my speech, I can't quite remember why.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I don't think the kid did anything wrong. He's a kid. I think that "rabbi" is an idiot.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
What did he do? I can't watch the video at work.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
He basically gave a "I'm not so sure how much there is to this whole 'God' thing." talk. It was sort of a statement of agnosticism.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I don't really know the protocol for a bar mitzvah but, if I had a niece or nephew that gave that speech at their confirmation I would be proud of them. It is certainly unorthodox (so to speak) but it is honest and shows some pretty mature thinking. I think that to have doubts, but still decide to live as God would want you to live - if there were a God - is a pretty powerful expression of faith.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I don't really know the protocol for a bar mitzvah but, if I had a niece or nephew that gave that speech at their confirmation I would be proud of them. It is certainly unorthodox (so to speak) but it is honest and shows some pretty mature thinking. I think that to have doubts, but still decide to live as God would want you to live - if there were a God - is a pretty powerful expression of faith.
Agreed.
Though I would call it a powerful expression of open-mindedness, not faith.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:if I had a niece or nephew that gave that speech at their confirmation I would be proud of them. It is certainly unorthodox (so to speak) but it is honest and shows some pretty mature thinking. I think that to have doubts, but still decide to live as God would want you to live - if there were a God - is a pretty powerful expression of faith.
At all the confirmations I've attended, the confirmands are asked to renew their baptismal vows. It's kind of hard to do this honestly if one isn't "so sure how much there is to this whole 'God' thing."
I haven't seen this tape yet, but MattP's summary doesn't seem to leave room for affirmatively stating that one believes in God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
I think "really mature or really childish" could only be in question if he'd thrown away his prepared speech and substituted this one on his own. Unless there's evidence to the contrary elsewhere, I would strongly assume that every word of this speech was vetted by the rabbi and the parents. If they felt it was appropriate for that particular audience, they're probably right.
(What that says for the brand of Judaism practiced by that particular audience is another question entirely, and one I'm not touching.)
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Yeah, it did occur to me that the vows would be a bit sticky. On the other hand, an awful lot of mature theologians, religious, and even saints have expressed doubt of God's existence. That, at least in my opinion, didn't make them bad Christians. I don't know if it would make one a bad Jew.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: I haven't seen this tape yet, but MattP's summary doesn't seem to leave room for affirmatively stating that one believes in God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
Which is one of the key differences between Judaism and Christianity. At least I think so. Could be wrong.
Couldn't a bar mitzvah be as much a cultural ceremony as a religious one? I know several people who had their bar mitzvahs but were atheist or agnostic at the time, still are atheist or agnostic, and yet still identify as Jewish.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: I haven't seen this tape yet, but MattP's summary doesn't seem to leave room for affirmatively stating that one believes in God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
...you have a very interesting idea of what goes on at Bar Mitzvahs.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert: Couldn't a bar mitzvah be as much a cultural ceremony as a religious one?
A bar mitzvah is almost entirely a cultural ceremony. It has no religious significance in itself... it's just a celebration of one's passage into adulthood, and thus into being fully responsible under Jewish law.
[Edited to clarify that by "it" I mean the party. Adulthood itself does have religious significance, but that happens whether you celebrate it or not.]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:...you have a very interesting idea of what goes on at Bar Mitzvahs.
No, I don't. I was responding to the idea of a similar speech being given by a Catholic confirmand. I wasn't talking about a Bar Mitzvah at all.
quote:Couldn't a bar mitzvah be as much a cultural ceremony as a religious one? I know several people who had their bar mitzvahs but were atheist or agnostic at the time, still are atheist or agnostic, and yet still identify as Jewish.
See above.
quote:Yeah, it did occur to me that the vows would be a bit sticky. On the other hand, an awful lot of mature theolgians, religious, and even saints have expressed doubt of God's existence. That, at least in my opinion, didn't make them bad Christians.
Depending on what is meant by "expressing doubt," it might make them liars if they state publicly that they do believe in God's existence with the specificity involved in the baptismal vows.
The details of the doubts expressed in the video would clarify this question somewhat.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
From my interpretation, it seemed as though he was having difficulty accepting an historical version of God. A question of literalness. "Does it really seem likely that Moses split the sea?" For me, a non-literalist liberal Catholic, there is a way to address those questions. I know many Jews who do not adopt a literal reading of scripture. I don't know if that is the case in the young man's tradition, but, since there was some laughter and no discernible outrage from the congregation (they seemed to be continuing with the ceremony) it seems that a wise rabbi could help him address those doubts.
I say the creed honestly every week (often more than once!), that does not mean that I don't have doubts. I have found a way to explore and address those doubts.
I think that, for many of us, "I believe" has many shades and layers of meaning.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:From my interpretation, it seemed as though he was having difficulty accepting an historical version of God. A question of literalness. "Does it really seem likely that Moses split the sea?" For me, a non-literalist liberal Catholic, there is a way to address those questions.
As I said, the details would matter here, and I haven't heard them.
quote:I say the creed honestly every week (often more than once!), that does not mean that I don't have doubts. I have found a way to address those doubts.
But there is some level of doubt that would make it dishonest for the doubter to say the creed. That's pretty much all I'm saying here.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:...you have a very interesting idea of what goes on at Bar Mitzvahs.
No, I don't. I was responding to the idea of a similar speech being given by a Catholic confirmand. I wasn't talking about a Bar Mitzvah at all.
I stand corrected!
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
For Dagonee:
quote:...I had a hard time studying my portion because I could not really relate to it. So instead I spent time with Mrs. (something) talking about my general beliefs, my feelings about judaism, and God. She said it was OK for me to talk about that instead. I'm not sure if I believe in God or not. When I think about God the first thing that comes to mind is the stories in the Bible which are really hard for me to believe. On the other hand, they are very interesting stories I enjoy reading. Some of my favorite include the story of Moses, Noah's ark and Adam and Eve. But these stories are like fiction stores because what they did seems impossible. Like when Moses was leading the Jewish people out of Egypt he split the sea. Does that sound like it could happen? In my opinion, no. But do I have to believe in these stories to believe in God? I have a hard time imagining what God is, though. I don't know if he is a spirit or a tree or air or a nerd or some guy in the sky or is he not just on top of the world or is he on top of everything? Is he even he or a she or a he/she? I'm not prepared to say that there is or is not a God. I just don't have a clue right now. Judaism means learning about all the stories and maybe believing in God and going to Hebrew school. It also means doing Jewish things called Mitsah(?), celebrating Shabat, and having a Bar Mitzvah. You can become 13 without having to go through the whole ritual thing. It is just the Jewish way. I don't have to believe in God to be a Jew though. I'm just a Jew doing normal things. By becoming a Bar Mitzvah I understand that I am becoming a Jewish adult. But am I really an adult? Sometimes I find myself hoping that something miraculous will happen to help me see if there is a God. I do not know if that will happen. If there is a God I believe he wants us to be good. He wants humans to treat each other the way they wanted to be treated. But I don't think we need to believe in God to behave that way. We just need to act like God would want us to, if there was a God.
I typed this up quickly. There are probably typos, but you should get the gist.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Thanks, Matt!
In reading it, I think that saying "I'm not sure if I believe in God or not" precludes one from honestly saying that one believes "that there is only one God, the Creator, Preserver and Ruler of all things and the Father of all men; that this our God and Father is a just judge, Who rewards the good and punishes the wicked," etc.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I think his final sentence is quite interesting, in that it stops short of saying humans don't benefit from the idea of God.
The assent of the audience causes me to think that his speech is not that atypical, and therefore not particularly mature or "ballsy."
It may be too literal a reading, but I think the Bar Mitzvah (son of the law) is about one becoming accountable for following the Law of Moses. So the question is, can one do that without believing in God? I suppose if one doesn't believe in or place anything above or love anything more than God, he might be okay.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
Two minor notes, incidentally...
1) The Torah portion in question is Leviticus 6-8. It's rather lacking in interesting stories he'd enjoy reading.
2) Frankly, I think the most disturbing line in the whole speech, the one that most undermines everything a Bar Mitzvah is supposed to represent, is "But am I really an adult?" (But, again, I'm not blaming the speaker; he's only the messenger.)
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:I think his final sentence is quite interesting, in that it stops short of saying humans don't benefit from the idea of God.
Good thing he didn't say that, or else he would have been a liar. (In that, despite my atheism, I think it's pretty clear that humans can benefit from the idea of god.)
Edit: Gah, pooka changed her post! Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Thanks, Matt!
In reading it, I think that saying "I'm not sure if I believe in God or not" precludes one from honestly saying that one believes "that there is only one God, the Creator, Preserver and Ruler of all things and the Father of all men; that this our God and Father is a just judge, Who rewards the good and punishes the wicked," etc.
true, but I don't think that's what Bar Mitzvahs are about Dagonnee. It's just a ceremony to celebrate the passing of a person from childhood into adulthood, recognizing the fact that they are now responsible for their own actions. It's not about reaffirming your belief in God or anything.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:true, but I don't think that's what Bar Mitzvahs are about Dagonnee. It's just a ceremony to celebrate the passing of a person from childhood into adulthood, recognizing the fact that they are now responsible for their own actions. It's not about reaffirming your belief in God or anything.
Again, I'm not talking about the Bar Mitzvah but rather a hypothetical Catholic confirmand giving this speech after renewing his baptismal vows.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: Frankly, I think the most disturbing line in the whole speech, the one that most undermines everything a Bar Mitzvah is supposed to represent, is "But am I really an adult?" (But, again, I'm not blaming the speaker; he's only the messenger.)
I think what the kid was saying, and I could be wrong, is the despite the bar mitzvah our society still considers him to be a child. And maybe for good reasons.
He'll still be living at home. He'll still be following his parents' rules. He'll still be going to high school. He won't be getting a job, getting a car, or be allowed to drink.
So the way Judaism reckons it, he's an adult. In almost every other way, he's still a child.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
Shmuel, I definitely didn't see myself as an adult when I had my Bar Mitzvah. I remember being excited that I could now be part of a minyan, but that's about it. And rightly so, we don't treat 13 year olds like adults in our society, so why should I have felt like one?
quote:Again, I'm not talking about the Bar Mitzvah but rather a hypothetical Catholic confirmand giving this speech after renewing his baptismal vows.
ah, got you.
edit - Javert beat me to it.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I added to my post, but I don't believe I edited the part you quoted, though I did play with the wording quite a bit before I posted.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: I added to my post, but I don't believe I edited the part you quoted, though I did play with the wording quite a bit before I posted.
You're right. Sorry. I thought the sentence I quoted was at the bottom, not the top. *smackshead*
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
It depends on the society you live in, I suppose. Given the way that line was delivered and received, I agree that the community that boy was in would not, in fact, consider him an adult in any sense other than ritual. And I stand by finding that disturbing and particularly contrary to the whole point of marking one's Bar Mitzvah, which is publicly affirming one's adulthood in a very real and legal sense.
If the theme were "I'm not really sure about God but I'm nevertheless accepting my responsibilities as a grownup," that might reflect a lack of understanding about God, but not of what it is to be a Bar Mitzvah. "I'm not really a grownup..." why even mark it at all, then?
[Edited to fix a minor typo... make that three.]
[ March 11, 2008, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Shmuel ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Javert - for a horrible moment I wondered if "fast replies" go online without me clicking somehow.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:which is publicly affirming one's adulthood in a very real and legal sense.
Exactly. In America (which is where I assume this bar mitzvah was), he is still a child in every legal sense. And he's going to stay that way for another 5 years.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert: Exactly. In America (which is where I assume this bar mitzvah was), he is still a child in every legal sense. And he's going to stay that way for another 5 years.
Depends which laws you're talking about. Not everything ends up in a civil court.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shmuel:
quote:Originally posted by Javert: Exactly. In America (which is where I assume this bar mitzvah was), he is still a child in every legal sense. And he's going to stay that way for another 5 years.
Depends which laws you're talking about. Not everything ends up in a civil court.
I confess that I have no idea what you're talking about. Please clarify. In what way is a 13 year old not legally a child?
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert: I confess that I have no idea what you're talking about. Please clarify. In what way is a 13 year old not legally a child?
Honestly, under Jewish law, it's harder to understand in what way he isn't. Any business agreements he makes are legally binding; if he marries somebody, it counts; he can read the Torah on behalf of the congregation; he is fully culpable for any sins... he's an adult, period. I don't know how much clearer I can make it. That the U.S. government won't let him drive a car or whatever is small potatoes.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
I was referring to the laws of the country in which he lives. Not religious laws.
Of course, the religion can have whatever laws they want.
But as you said, I wouldn't be surprised if most of that wouldn't hold up in civil courts.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shmuel:
If the theme were "I'm not being sure about God but I nevertheless accepting my responsibilities as a grownup," that might reflect a lack of understanding about God, but not of what it is to be a Bar Mitzvah. "I'm not really a grownup..." why even mark it at all, then?
I think there's a big difference between saying "I'm not really a grownup" and asking, "but am I really an adult?" Questioning what it means to be an adult is (paradoxically) a very adult thing to do. I also don't see that he's not accepting his responsibilities as an adult -- quite the contrary, he seems to be saying that he will act like an adult even though he's not sure he is one and will act in the way he believes God wants him to act even though he's not sure who (or if) God is.
If it were a speaker of my religion my problem would be with the "I don't like the passage I was assigned, so I decided to talk about something else instead" aspect. But apparently he got permission for that ahead of time, so his teacher(?) was okay with it.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert: I was referring to the laws of the country in which he lives. Not religious laws.
So, having cleared up that Jewish law does indeed cover the full range of jurisprudence, and is not confined to matters of ritual, you can go back and read what I said at 3:53 P.M. Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: So, having cleared up that Jewish law does indeed cover the full range of jurisprudence, and is not confined to matters of ritual,
Um...sort of. The difference being, if anyone wants to not follow Jewish law, they don't have to. If you live in America, you have to follow American law.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw: I think there's a big difference between saying "I'm not really a grownup" and asking, "but am I really an adult?" Questioning what it means to be an adult is (paradoxically) a very adult thing to do. I also don't see that he's not accepting his responsibilities as an adult -- quite the contrary, he seems to be saying that he will act like an adult even though he's not sure he is one and will act in the way he believes God wants him to act even though he's not sure who (or if) God is.
A fair point. I didn't get that impression from the video, and I think that might have been articulated better, but I can accept that particular theme.
quote:Originally posted by dkw: If it were a speaker of my religion my problem would be with the "I don't like the passage I was assigned, so I decided to talk about something else instead" aspect. But apparently he got permission for that ahead of time, so his teacher(?) was okay with it.
If it helps any (and I don't know if it does), the passage in question is the one read in the synagogue that week as part of the annual cycle, rather than having been assigned to him with any sort of intent.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert: Um...sort of. The difference being, if anyone wants to not follow Jewish law, they don't have to. If you live in America, you have to follow American law.
Mostly true, and entirely irrelevant to what I said. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: If it helps any (and I don't know if it does), the passage in question is the one read in the synagogue that week as part of the annual cycle, rather than having been assigned to him with any sort of intent.
I knew that. It still would bug me, if the normal procedure is to speak from the assigned reading for the week. I feel the same way about preachers in my own tradition who read the scripture lesson and then go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the text they just read.
But, as he is a newly minted adult rather than professional clergy, and seems to have gotten permission from the appropriate person for his tangent, I guess I shouldn't take that particular pet peeve out on him.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Actually Dana, I agree with you. But I pretty much agree with Shmuel on the rest.
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