So, Rabbit, what are the similarities you've found between caring for a very sick adult and caring for an infant?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Well first, foremost and most applicable is the stress and worry that comes with being responsible for another human life.
The rest of this list will not apply to every situations but they are all things I dealt with when caring for a critically ill family member with cancer. Some of them are things I've dealt with at least for several hours when my husband was in anaphylactic shock.
Being responsible for making the decisions.
Not being able to leave them alone even for a few minutes without getting another adult to stand in.
Having to get up repeatedly in the night to assist them and then dealing with the resultant sleep deprivation.
Having to interface with doctors, nurses and the hospital and make medical decisions. (I was really shocked to find that even in the best US hospitals, a responsible adult needs to be there to "concierge" the medical care or the right questions don't get asked and often orders aren't followed correctly. When someone is seriously ill, they simply can not do this for themselves.)
Caring for a person who is helpless -- can't feed themselves, clean themselves, cloth themselves, move by themselves or even wipe their own butt.
Dealing with someone who can't clearly communicate what's wrong. (When my MIL (who was otherwise completely lucid), developed a fever, she would become completely incoherent. She couldn't answer questions or understand directions.)
Having simple things like going getting in the car become an arduous process. (Packing up all the medical equipment, loading the wheelchair in the car, making sure we had all the medicines and supplies we'd need etc. etc. Taking her to her daily radiation therapy treatments was worse than loading 4 little kids in the car (and yes I've done that).
Having to clean up bodily fluids (vomit, feces etc).
I could go on, but I think you get the general idea.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I really don't. None of these seem applicable to what went on in the other thread.
None of them seem to justify the infantalizing that Tatiana was doing, nor the equivilencies she drew.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
The way I read it, Tatiana wasn't trying to say her teenage son is equivalent to a new baby.
She made it quite clear that she thought her experiences mothering him had many similarities to those of mommies with new infants.
There is a difference.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
However, none of your bullets correspond to Tatiana's situation.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Tatiana wasn't trying to say her teenage son is equivalent to a new baby.
I never said she did.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I'm pretty sure that the first and fourth items in my bulleted list apply to her situation as well as my lead comment.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:Tatiana wasn't trying to say her teenage son is equivalent to a new baby.
I never said she did.
Then what were you referring to when you said "infantalizing" and "equivalencies".
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Calling him her baby and using words like mommy and cranky is infantalizing.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Look, Here are two posts she made that caused half the board to pile on her.
quote:I'm a new mother, though my baby isn't a newborn. I have the same thing going on that some of you have described, that I worry a lot, and I'm afraid he's going to break, or I'm going to do something wrong. I want our home to be relaxed and fun, but you can't just make that happen by wanting it. Does anyone have any articles for me to read? I really should educate myself more about parenting
quote:Because from reading this thread, it seemed like many of the issues were the same.
He has trouble sleeping through the night, for instance. We have difficulties with doctors similar to those described above. He's sick and cranky sometimes. I get tired and I'm not always as patient as I'd like to be.
I don't see her infantilizing him at all. She was only saying that many things about her experience as a new mother were similar to those of other new mothers. She specifically asked for people to refer her to information on parenting. I just can't figure out what in that people found so offensive -- except for the fact that half the board has already declared that they find her adoption to be offensive from the get go.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I don't call myself a mommy even when I do have an infant, and adults can certainly be cranky. I think the people insisting that Tatiana meant he was a baby are being just as pigheaded as she is being.
I, of course, am the only one to see things rightly.
But seriously, if she has legally adopted him, she has set out to become his mother. I don't know if she has, but I'm extending the benefit of the doubt. To continue insisting that she isn't his mother and has no idea what the word even means is stubborn denial. This is all if there has been a legal adoption.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Infantalizing is referring to and treating an adult as a child/infant. She was doing that. She was not talking of him as if he were a 17 year old.
You also touch on this with your #1.
quote:Being responsible for making the decisions.
If she was treating him, in regards to making choices about his life, as if she was responsible for him in the same way that a parent is responsible for an infant, then she was definitely infantalizing him. Otherwise, I don't see how you can consider that valid.
Likewise, considering a teenager having trouble sleeping as pretty much like a newborn not sleeping through the night is wrong, in so many senses of the word.
---
You seem to be addressing a case that has little to do with Tatiana's situation. She's not caring for the invalid from the scenario you constructed.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Also, wasn't he 19, not 17. The goal was to adopt him while he was still 18, you don't regress. Maybe I had it wrong though, he could have been turning 17 or 18. I am pretty sure the adoption had to be close to a specific birthday though.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:I don't see her infantilizing him at all.
You don't see coming into a thread specifically set up for parents to talk about their newborns to talk about her new baby and how she's a mommy, talking about him being cranky, and saying that him sleeping through the night is the same thing as a newborn not sleeping through the night isn't infantalizing?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Tatiana has chosen to take in a seriously ill teenager, care for him and nurture him. Parenting a teenager isn't an easy thing and choosing to do so voluntarily isn't some sort of heinous crime.
All she asked for was some reference and (by inference) some emotional support and what she got was piled on.
I'm ashamed of hatrack for treating one of our own this way.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
I think that the overwhelming resonsibility and shock of bringing home a baby would be similar to the shock of bringing a teenager into your home. When I was pregnant, I thought a baby would be one way, when I brought monster home, I realized it was nothing like what I imagined. I think Tatiana has spent a lot of time imagining how things will be with this teenager and is probably experiencing that shock as reality hits fantasy. I don't know if a standard teenager thread would incorporate that shock. Obviously, suggestions in how to deal with it will be different, but I don't think Tatiana's comment deserved the response it got.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:I don't see her infantilizing him at all.
You don't see coming into a thread specifically set up for parents to talk about their newborns to talk about her new baby and how she's a mommy, talking about him being cranky, and saying that him sleeping through the night is the same thing as a newborn not sleeping through the night isn't infantalizing?
That isn't the way I've read her posts.
Look, its very clear that you have decided to find her statements offensive and that nothing I or anyone else could say could change your mind.
I'm done with this discussion.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:All she asked for was some reference and (by inference) some emotional support and what she got was piled on.
I am near close to positive that this isn't true.
You seem to be leaving out a whole mess of relevant context.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:But seriously, if she has legally adopted him, she has set out to become his mother. I don't know if she has, but I'm extending the benefit of the doubt. To continue insisting that she isn't his mother and has no idea what the word even means is stubborn denial. This is all if there has been a legal adoption.
The "child" in question (grown man!) has two living parents that have raised him until now.
She convinced them to sign over their parental rights so that she could get him health insurance. Now she is trying to usurp them emotionally in addition to legally.
Then she wants all the validity in her relationship with this young man as birth parents have with their children. She blocked out all of the negative reactions to her actions, assuming they went away because "it's so obviously a good thing". Well I'm sorry, but she can't have it.
Edit: I say "birth parents" above, but what I really mean is "parents who are not a sham for insurance fraud purposes". This includes every other adoptive parent I've ever heard of until now.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Parenting a teenager isn't an easy thing and choosing to do so voluntarily isn't some sort of heinous crime.
Calling what Tatiana is doing "parenting" is a gross misuse of the term.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:I'm done with this discussion.
Did you ever start with this discussion? All I've seen is you ignoring what has been said and bring up a series of unrelated attempts to support Tatiana.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I don't withhold assent from people who are divorced and re-married, just because I am fortunate enough to still be with my original spouse.
(This analogy was decried in the last thread we had about this, so I've probably seen the road ahead as far as I care to as well.)
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Obviously, suggestions in how to deal with it will be different, but I don't think Tatiana's comment deserved the response it got.
scholarette, I could see how it would look that way just from that thread itself. However, there is a great deal of relevant context that I suspect you are not aware of.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I thought that the person Tatiana adopted was 19. I can't verify this, since the thread was deleted.
Am I misremembering? If not, why is everyone calling him a teenager? That's a full on adult.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Parenting a teenager isn't an easy thing and choosing to do so voluntarily isn't some sort of heinous crime.
He is 19. The push was to get the adoption through before his 19th birthday, which was some months ago.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
quote:If not, why is everyone calling him a teenager?
well, he's nineteen Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
pooka, the only way I can see that analogy is if you and your ex husband still loved each other but you had to divorce him and marry someone else to commit fraud - say get on his insurance. I which case, I would have some problems considering that a valid marriage.
I think that Tatiana came to the thread trying to say, "treat me like a new mommy, too!" (in a rather manipulative way) and, for the most part, the community said (as it has before), "no". Some more gently than others.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Parenting a teenager isn't an easy thing...
If she were parenting, that would be relevant.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:Parenting a teenager isn't an easy thing...
If she were parenting, that would be relevant.
She hasn't really posted anything about life with Sasha, has she? We can make assumptions about what's going on there, but when you get right down to it we don't actually have much of an idea of what the dynamic really is in that relationship.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Dude's not a child. If a thirty year old man shows up and begs me to take care of him, I can. But I wouldn't be his parent.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Dude's not a child. If a thirty year old man shows up and begs me to take care of him, I can. But I wouldn't be his parent.
<marks down life plan T>
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Finally, a safety net. Now I can open that restaurant.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Darn. Got here too late.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
That was more carefully worded than y'all seem to appreciate. Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I assume you mean the use of can instead of would.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
:lol:
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:well, he's nineteen [Razz]
Which is well into "adult" status.
Teenager is 13-17 in my mind. Any more than that is an adult. Calling Sasha a teenager implies things about his (physical) maturity level which simply aren't true.
The new parenting thread for teenagers STILL doesn't apply. Perhaps someone should make a new thread about challenges in parenting an adult who lives with you.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
In general, I'd agree that a 19 year old is past the point where they could be considered any kind of child. There are 19 year olds and then there are 19 year olds, though. Some have little enough emotional maturity, for whatever reason, that one would think from interacting with them that they were half a decade younger than they actually are. I have no idea if Sasha is such a person, but if he were than I think that it would be possible for a parent/child relationship to develop between them.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Tatiana has chosen to take in a seriously ill teenager, care for him and nurture him. Parenting a teenager isn't an easy thing and choosing to do so voluntarily isn't some sort of heinous crime.
All she asked for was some reference and (by inference) some emotional support and what she got was piled on.
I'm ashamed of hatrack for treating one of our own this way.
I'd be more ashamed to be a yes-man for an emotional timebomb, personally. Admittedly, it would take time away from my self-righteousness, as well as taking time away from building the Great Wall of Denial, but these are sacrifices I'd be willing to make. On account of the shame.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)