I had a conversation yesterday with a woman who firmly believes that cremation is disrespectful to the body. I said that if you're throwing it on the campfire, sure, but both cremation and burial are just different methods of breaking the body down to its constituent elements - one by oxidation, the other by decomposition.
After a little more discussion, we decided that it is cultural, but she claimed that in the United States, our culture firmly holds that burial is respectful and cremation is not.
I don't think this is true. I think cremation is gaining "popularity" and it is much more prevelant in some parts of the country than others. I also think it can be very respectful. I saw the finale of season three of Doctor Who - that was respectful all over the place. Also, having seen things decompose, I don't know that that's exactly kinder. It is not an attractive or graceful process.
So, in your neck of the woods, which is preferred? Is either considered disrespectful?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
My grandmother was cremated.
My father-in-law, who has his funeral director's license, has requested that no embalming be done, and has specifically stated that he does not want to be cremated under any circumstances. He says this is because he understands the funeral system and wants none of that to happen to his body.
I think burial is still generally preferred in my neck of the woods, but cremation is rapidly becoming more popular.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
I have no idea what's preferred around here, but I always thought that I would be cremated.
It just never sat right with me about dressing up the deceased in expensive clothing, putting them in an expensive box and then burying it in the ground. There's something Ancient Egyptian-feeling about that and it never made sense to me.
And I'm focusing on expense because it's going to cost your family more to have you buried than cremated, not that I have any real problem with people burying valuables if they want to.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Not sure what's preferred, but there's no doubt in my mind that I want cremation for myself.
Rotting in the ground has little appeal to me.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
My preference for what happens to my body would be cremation - I would prefer a rapid dust to dust instead of a long, drawn out, disgusting process. However, I really like that I can visit my mother's grave. I think it is important to have some place to visit in remembrance of someone. So, torn.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: My preference for what happens to my body would be cremation - I would prefer a rapid dust to dust instead of a long, drawn out, disgusting process. However, I really like that I can visit my mother's grave. I think it is important to have some place to visit in remembrance of someone. So, torn.
Can't your family keep the ashes?
Or how about burying the ashes? Sort of a hybrid between the two.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Yeah, burying the ashes seems the best option. And most expensive, since you pay for both a burial and a cremation.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Yeah, burying the ashes seems the best option. And most expensive, since you pay for both a burial and a cremation.
Why do you have to pay for burying the ashes? Couldn't you just find a nice spot on your own property?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I don't care much personally, as long as enough is done to ensure that I can't be buried alive. Autopsy, embalming, and cremation will all achieve that goal.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Couldn't you just find a nice spot on your own property?
There is no family estate. The advantage of a cemetary is you don't have to knock on some strangers door and ask to visit a corner of their yard and then discover they took down the headstone and planted begonias on top of your father.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
A few notes:
Many funeral homes offer special buildings that can house the ashes. I forget if they are called Crematoriums or Vaults, or something. So there is a place to go, with a nice view, to visit your loved ones.
Burials have the problem of eating up land. You can't really do anything on the land once its a burial ground without getting everyone's permission to move the bodies.
However, at present burials are more profitable than cremations for that industry. As land prices and upkeep become more expensive, I think that will change.
Finally, consider this from an environmental point of view. Cremation may add to global warming, but what do we do with burial? We take a body, ready to decompose and be recycled by the earth, and we hermetically seal it in a giant metal box, cutting it off from the earth.
The only worry I have with cremation is the problem of getting the correct ashes into the correct urn. The funeral industry has a history of money saving idiots who can't even bury the right body in the right place, or anyplace. I find it hard to believe that they always get the right ashes into the right urn.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
On a side note, I think it'd be kind of nice for my resting place to be as fertilizer for begonias. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Oh, it all goes back into the circle.
However, that does belie the point of having someplace to visit.
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
My great-grandparents were cremated. The have a small plot at a cemetery down the Cape, though. So - they're ashes now but we've still got a spot to go visit them.
I guess I (ignorantly) thought that even when you got cremated you had a plot in a cemetery...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I don't want to make that decision for my own body. Once I'm dead, what do I care what happens to it? But my family will care. I think that my family should decide what to do according to what's best for them.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
I hate how expensive everything is. I have told my family that I do not want a viewing or funeral. I want to immediately be thrown in the cheapest box and tossed into the fire. I don't want people to get all dressed up and be sad while I lay in a casket at the front of a room. I am not a formal person, so for me to lay in a casket in a suit would be weird. Maybe shorts and a t-shirt.
I want a fellowship. I want people to get together to eat and tell stories and just hang out together (three of my favorite things). I do want a slide show of pictures (another of my favorite things). I would like a celebration of my life and not such a focus on my death.
My wife was really concerned about the ashes. She didn't know what to do with them. I found this website. They take your ashes and make diamonds out of the carbon. I really like that idea and so does my wife. I would like to be made into five diamonds (one for wife and one each for my daughters) and those diamonds turned into pendants. My wife loves diamonds (duh) and she really likes the idea of being able to have something nice to remember me by.
There is one caveat to all of this. I told my wife and parents my wishes, but I also told them that if my wife feels she "needs" a funeral and/or burial for closure, I am fine with that. What do I care, I'll be gone. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Many funeral homes offer special buildings that can house the ashes. I forget if they are called Crematoriums or Vaults, or something.
A crematorium is where the cremation happens. A vault is the big metal box that the casket goes into before it's buried.
The word you are looking for is columburium.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:I want a fellowship. I want people to get together to eat and tell stories and just hang out together (three of my favorite things). I do want a slide show of pictures (another of my favorite things). I would like a celebration of my life and not such a focus on my death.
This is a great idea. I do like services, though - I like gathering to pray for comfort.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
Why not just keep the urn? Or do ashes 'go bad'?
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
I've always thought about a quick donation to the local medical school. Dad was always dissapointed that I didn't go. I could make it up to him and save a bundle too. I wonder if I could arrange for a dixieland band to escort me to the front door?
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
For people seriously interested in keeping expenses low and having as "natural" as possible a burial I highly reccommend the book Caring for the Dead: Your Final Act of Love by Lisa Carlson. It's a pretty good guide to do-it-yourself funeral practices, with a state-by-state guide to laws regarding embalming, burial, transport of bodies, etc.
It's also good to read if you'll be planning a "traditional" funeral for yourself or someone else and want to know what's really necessary vs what a funeral home might try to convince you you need.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Well, who would keep them? I like that I don't have to go through anyone else to visit my mother's grave. And my dad remarried - I'm not terribly fond of my stepmother, but putting my mother's ashes in the living room seems like too much to ask.
That's a good recommendation, dkw.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Why not spread them around? It's not like all the ashes have to be stored in one place.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:My father-in-law, who has his funeral director's license, has requested that no embalming be done, and has specifically stated that he does not want to be cremated under any circumstances. He says this is because he understands the funeral system and wants none of that to happen to his body.
What happens in the funeral system for cremation that's so objectionable?
Not that I care too much what happens to my body after dead, I'm mostly just curious.
I wouldn't be opposed to donating my body to science (assuming they still wanted it after my organs are harvested). I'm guessing they cremate after the body is no longer useful.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Why not spread them around? It's not like all the ashes have to be stored in one place.
Which all goes back to the "It's nice to have a single place to visit."
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
You have a single place to visit. Are you talking about a single communal place to visit?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I said what I wanted in my posts above.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
I don't really have a place that is so special to me that I would want my ashes spread there. Also, I wouldn't feel comfortable with the ashes being in the house so I doubt my wife would too. If I am a diamond, I can sit in the jewelery box and be worn when she feels like it.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I'm actually sort of digging on the idea of having a box of my ashes with a scoop and a bunch of zip lock bags next to it.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
That's kinda cool. Let people take and do what they wish with you.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Aside from religious reasons for believing the body shouldn't be messed up after death, or people who want to be frozen for later revival, I think the desire to protect ones body after death is a little odd. It's almost like they think they will feel what's happening.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I'm actually sort of digging on the idea of having a box of my ashes with a scoop and a bunch of zip lock bags next to it.
With a little sign that says "self-serve".
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
A lot of funeral homes may not tell you that no embalming is not an option, since it requires refrigeration, and in Utah at least, limits the viewing to immediately before the service and family only (at the place my grandparents went). So yeah, if a funeral home tells you it's not an option, that may not mean illegal. But most people aren't really in a frame of mind to shop options at such times.
That's why I think planning ahead is nice.
My mom went back and forth on the cremation matter. I'm not really sure where her wishes sit at this point. I think she was always perturbed by the thought of embalming.
I don't have much preference one way or another.
I knew a lady who kept some ashes of her husband and children in a small container on a necklace. The only reservation I'd have about that is how distressing it would be to lose it. What's that The Accidental Tourist said? Never travel with anything so precious that you cannot bear its loss, or words to that effect.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: So, in your neck of the woods, which is preferred? Is either considered disrespectful?
I have always assumed that congestion has more of an impact on what burial type is preferred then culture. In Tokyo I would think most people are cremated. In Nebraska I would think most people are buried.
I am guessing that as cities become congested and crowded they cremation will become more popular. Land will get too expensive and space will become an issue.
On a side not, I want my wife to sell my body for research. Why force my family to pend money when they could make a couple bucks and help with scientific research?
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
Of course, my wife is to have me baked only after everything that can be taken to help others is already gone.
Not to hijack the thread, but how do you feel about organ donation?
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
quote:The word you are looking for is columburium.
From the Latin word for Dovecot, I believe. Go figure that one
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
It's odd, but most people I know of who express a strong preference ask for cremation. Mostly because of the weirdness of decomp, being viewed dead and the expense of burial.
The grievers, otoh, seem to prefer burial. IME, each time the departed wishes have not been honored, it was in favor of burial over cremation.
I think this is because burial gives the grievers a more tangible opportunity to say, "Goodbye" and helps in the acceptance process.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: After a little more discussion, we decided that it is cultural, but she claimed that in the United States, our culture firmly holds that burial is respectful and cremation is not.
I have to say, I've lived in the US my whole life, and although some people prefer one or the other, I've never heard anyone in my culture make the claim that cremation is "disrespectful".
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
What part of the U.S.?
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
I'm with Sean - I've never heard that cremation is disrespectful. I grew up in California.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
What part of California?
I have definitely heard that it was disrespectful, so clearly there are different attitudes in different parts of the U.S.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
I've lived in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Massachusetts, Tennessee, and currently Nevada.
EDIT: Though I must admit, I've not discussed the subject with everyone I know.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'd be interested in an actual survey of attitudes. I've lived in Texas, Utah, Michigan, and Virginia, but I only had a conversation about what to do with the body in half of those places.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
You know, honestly? I'd rather go out in some dramatic fashion that ends with nobody ever able to find my body. You know, as long as it wasn't painful, or I was stuck there dying slowly or something.
Then, because nobody ever found me, for the rest of human history they could at least say, "he's not really dead. He's just waiting for the right moment to return!"
Come now. Who wouldn't want such a King Arthur style thing? ^_^
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
There's a little bit of a stigma towards cremation in my mind. I think that's because I never heard of cremation until I was in my teens. In my formative years, I only knew that dead people were buried. So in the back of my mind, cremation is still a little "weird" for me. But logically, I think I'd prefer it.
Something just occured to me. Let me preface this by saying this is *not* my belief - it's just a conjecture. But maybe some people find it disrespectful in a subconsciously religious way; as though applying fire to the body is somehow consigning the person to some sort of hell.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Take everything out that can be used - organ donation, definitely, then I don't really care. If my kids want me buried in a spot they can visit, then fine. Personally, I don't go to gravesites of my loved ones that have died. I don't see the point. As far as my religious beliefs are concerned - I don't believe they are there, or that what is in the ground is anything more than decomposing organic matter. It's just a body, and has no real significance for me.
I do understand that not everyone feels that way. My aunt likes to visit my grandmother and grandfather's grave and take new flowers, and clean it up and everything. It means to something to her, and that's great. It's just not the same for me.
I have never heard anyone say cremation is disrespectful per se, but I do note that here - in the Bible Belt, deep south portion of the country - that cremation is rare. Most people do have embalming and burials in cemetery plots.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
I've lived all over Northern California & Central California. I've been in SoCal often enough that I'm fairly certain that cremation isn't an issue there.
I imagine the large number of immigrants in California might have something to do with this. Among Hindus (a sizable group in the Bay Area), cremation is absolutely the thing to do.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I think there's a doctrinal aspect to Mormonism that the body is integral to the soul, and so I think that's where the idea of disrespect concept comes in -- however, what constitutes respect or disrespect varies widely. So it is cultural. The friend's cultural education has that it's disrespectful while yours does not.
My mom's point was that filling the body with embalming chemicals is just as disrespectful as incinerating it. I mean, fire has a lot of religious symbology that formaldehyde does not.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
My father was quite young when he died (44) and his parents encouraged us to cremate him due to the lower costs involved. At that time (I was about 19), my older siblings and I were firmly against the idea and paid the extra ~$2000 or so to have him buried. He's buried in Reno, where he lived when he died, and I've never been back to the cemetary since the funeral. My sister has, but she lives closer. At this time in my life, I'd probably agree with my grandparents and cremate him.
My grandparents informed us at that time that when they died, they would be cremated and they did not want any funeral service. We respected their wishes, but it felt kind of wrong. My grandmother went first, and I sent a card and called grandpa, but he was insistent that there wouldn't be a service. He died about 11 years later and I got a call from my uncle to let me know. Again, I felt bad that we didn't gather for a funeral, but we were all pretty scattered and probably wouldn't have been able to do much anyway due to other family circumstances (our mother was terminal at that point and we were making arrangements for her).
My mother was buried, but not embalmed. My flight was delayed on the way to her funeral and I was not present when most of the decisions were made. I thought my step-father and brother spent WAAAAYYY too much on the casket, but they were caught up in the emotion and fell for some of the high pressure at the funeral home.
As for myself, I've told all of my children to donate whatever they can and dispose of the rest of me as cheaply and efficiently as possible. I despise the idea of a viewing - I think they're terribly morbid. I like brojack's suggestion for a service, but honestly, all of the family funerals I have attended have been almost exactly what he described.
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
I think if I were cremated, I'd opt to have my ashes mixed in with wet concrete that could then be made into some sort of a monument.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Re: Cement mixers I find it odd that there is often heaving earthmoving equipment waiting in the wings at the cemetery. For my Chinese grandmother's funeral, my grandfather just stood by and watched as they filled in the grave. I may be reconstructing that they even had a motorized dirt tamper go over the grave. In any case, it was highly weird. But I'll go back to their grave any chance I get because it's a beautiful place overlooking the Golden Gate bridge.
Come to think of it, I may go down to Arlington this Sunday, because I don't know when my next chance will be.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I have heard people who believe in the literal resurrection of our bodies express disapproval for cremation because of that. It's never really made sense to me for many reasons, but I've certainly heard it.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
There is a biblical tradition of some kind concerning how the dead are treated. But I'm pretty sure St. Paul would say it doesn't matter.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
The biggest religious objections to cremation in this country have certainly been over the issue of bodily resurrection. Those with that objection tend to also be against organ donation and have issues with amputation of limbs. But that is changing as more and more people, even among those who believe in a literal bodily resurrection, are taking the veiw that "God can sort it out." It's still a very present veiw among older conservative Christians, however. As a pastor, I've been asked about it by family members who were concerned about their loved one's decision to be cremated.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I grew up in NE Kansas. Burial was vastly more common than cremation, but cremation wasn't seen as being disrespectful at all.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
My friend's concern absolutely stemmed from concerns about the resurrection. She also felt like burying was letting nature (God) do its thing while cremating was circumventing that. She wasn't impressed by my "God created fire" argument.
I'm afraid I scandalized her even more when I speculated how, exactly, it was going to work, because most bodies have long since gone to dust and some of the carbon atoms in my body have surely been part of other people's bodies before. I don't think she liked that idea at all.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Those with that objection tend to also be against organ donation and have issues with amputation of limbs.
Really? That doesn't match my experience in my culture. I don't think I've ever met somebody in Mormon culture who had issues with organ donation or amputation.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I should have been more specific -- those concerns stem from the same place, but the organ donation and limb amputation ones have died out faster than the cremation part, which is still a lingering issue for many people.
The organ donation one is still viable too, though. And we had a lay preacher here in town who told a church member that a Christian shouldn't get a heart transplant (this man needed one) because "Jesus lives in your heart, so if they take out your heart you won't be a Christian anymore." Which doesn't follow from the same doctrine, but this guy was an absolute literalist on a lot of things.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
But logically, if the heart transplant was from another Christian, you'd be okay.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
I definately subscribe to the "God can sort it out" theory. If God literally takes my body, I'm sure he can figure out how to put me back together. After all, he made the first human, so I think he could put me back together.
I'm kinda surprised that no one said anything about the turning my ashes into a diamond. My entire family and step-family think we are crazy, but they are definately in the pay too much for a casket and services group. They think I am crazy for the cremation thing, let alone the turning me into a diamond thing.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I'm not sure that logic had anything to do with it.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
We had a thread about the ashes-diamond business back in the spring of 2003 - not to discount the suggestion. It was an occassion for many a pun.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Not sure what you expect us to say about the diamond thing. Except for have you checked the prices? Last I looked, it was pretty cost-prohibitive. As in, I'd rather my loved ones have the cash and buy a couple dozen natural diamonds if they want them.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Yeah, here's the price list. .2 - .29 caret diamond for $3500, .9 to .99 for $20,000. A 1 caret natural diamond ring is around $6 grand, and the $20G is for the loose diamond.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
I just kinda expected a reaction similar to my family. They all look at me like I'm crazy.
I guess that's why I like this forum so much. Everyone here is more progressive in their thinking.
Yeah, it is more expensive but if they don't have to pay for a funeral, then it shouldn't be that bad.
Life insurance should be able to cover it.
You guys are great.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Everyone here is more progressive in their thinking.
Not all of us.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
They still have to pay for the cremation in the first place. Between that and making 5 diamonds, it's not going to be cheaper than a funeral, and probably more expensive. Not what I'd use life insurance money for, unless I was sure my loved ones were left financially stable.
But, not my call. Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Everyone here is more progressive in their thinking.
Not all of us.
Yeah, but you didn't say I was an idiot for even thinking of this.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: They still have to pay for the cremation in the first place. Between that and making 5 diamonds, it's not going to be cheaper than a funeral, and probably more expensive. Not what I'd use life insurance money for, unless I was sure my loved ones were left financially stable.
But, not my call.
When I first found the website, it was about $5000/ diamond. I see it would be cost prohibitive to do five diamonds. Maybe just one for my wife.
Either way, it is ultimately her call. If she doesn't feel comfortable doing it, she can cremate me and toss me in the garbage.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Way more expensive than an average funeral.
I mean, I'm sure you could get a funeral up into the $20,000 range if you tried, but you can also do it for much less than that. (The average American funeral cost in 2006 was just over $6,000, according to the National Funeral Directors Assoc.)
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: We had a thread about the ashes-diamond business back in the spring of 2003 - not to discount the suggestion. It was an occassion for many a pun.
I tried searching for this thread, but it must have been deleted. Either that or my searching skills are weak.
At least I have bow-staff skills. Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw: The average American funeral cost in 2006 was just over $6,000, according to the National Funeral Directors Assoc.)
We have had a rash or funerals in our family lately. The extremely cheap ones were $5000 and the more expensive one was $12,000. If my family is going to get as much as I am covered for, they should be able to live without a few grand. I just don't like the idea of decomposing in the ground. I don't want to take up the space and I don't want people to feel they have to come look at a rock with my name on it.
I don't visit family members who have been buried. I just don't really see the point. I don't want to say people are wrong for doing that though. I just don't get it. It may be different if it were one of my children, I will admit that. Also, I don't know why I have such a strong feeling about this. Maybe it was because I saw the funeral home take advantage of my wife's family when her aunt died. That was the $12,000 funeral.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
There are a few "Memorial Parks" in the US that are taking advantage of laws about burial sites to preserve wilderness areas. You have to be buried unembalmed and in a plain wood box, or cremated and the ashes buried, so that you are easily decomposable. But the fees from the burials are used to buy and preserve the land, and the fact that it's a burial site gives it extra protection from future development.
Edit: I think this was one of the first: Memorial Ecosystems Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by brojack17:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Everyone here is more progressive in their thinking.
Not all of us.
Yeah, but you didn't say I was an idiot for even thinking of this.
That has nothing to do with being a progressive thinker or not.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
dkw that is so cool! That one in conyers Georgia is not too far away from me.
quote:We are very pleased to be able to set apart a part of our land for this kind of initiative. We are happy to offer a quiet and beautiful resting place to people of all faiths and as well to those who have struggled to find any faith. For our part, we promise to let this land be reverently protected and beautiful for those who will share it with us.
Father Francis Michael Abbott of the Monastery of the Holy Spirit
I love this idea. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by LadyDove: It's odd, but most people I know of who express a strong preference ask for cremation. Mostly because of the weirdness of decomp, being viewed dead and the expense of burial.
The grievers, otoh, seem to prefer burial. IME, each time the departed wishes have not been honored, it was in favor of burial over cremation.
This is exactly contrary to my experience, but that may have to do with religious Jews with non-religious relatives, and v.v.
I like the idea of a conservation burial. It seems like a wonderful place for mourners to visit. It sounds like it would save money and do good at the same time. Plus, the idea of my body being sealed up tightly seems a little sad. If it's going to decay, it seems much cleaner to let it all return to the environment instead of sitting in a box.
On the other hand, I've wondered about the possibility of using cremation ashes in a ceramic glaze. That would be a cool way to remember someone -- incorporate their ashes into a memento. I think I'd like it if my body were to be a part of artwork like that.
Rivka, does the ban on cremation apply to non-Jews as well? Would a Jewish person refuse to honor the wishes of a non-Jew wishing to be cremated if it were up to him/her to make that decision?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: Rivka, does the ban on cremation apply to non-Jews as well? Would a Jewish person refuse to honor the wishes of a non-Jew wishing to be cremated if it were up to him/her to make that decision?
Doubtful. None of the relevant laws are among the Noachide laws. But I don't really know -- I doubt it comes up very often. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: On the other hand, I've wondered about the possibility of using cremation ashes in a ceramic glaze. That would be a cool way to remember someone -- incorporate their ashes into a memento. I think I'd like it if my body were to be a part of artwork like that.
I had planned to do that with my dog's ashes, but then I stopped doing pottery soon after she died. All of the bone-ash glazes I've seen have been really pretty. I had decided to use it only for vases and such though -- the idea of using it for plates or cups kind of squicked me out.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:Cremation vs. Burial
Stuffed with a horrifying expression on and mailed to someone I dislike.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw: There are a few "Memorial Parks" in the US that are taking advantage of laws about burial sites to preserve wilderness areas. You have to be buried unembalmed and in a plain wood box, or cremated and the ashes buried, so that you are easily decomposable. But the fees from the burials are used to buy and preserve the land, and the fact that it's a burial site gives it extra protection from future development.
Oh, I really like that. I'm glad I actually decided to read this thread.
--Mel
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
I do still like the idea also. I think I'll stick with my idea, but that is another great alternative.
Does anyone know how the price for this compares to a traditional funeral?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I knew a guy who died and his family was unable to be contacted, and the final bill was $16k. I'm not really sure who was in charge. I figured it was because it was in L.A.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
quote:I'm not sure that logic had anything to do with it.
I've heard that a lot about cremationists.
Oh, and if getting a Heart transplant takes Jesus out of your life because Jesus lives in your heart, then would getting bypass surgery also be wrong, since you would be bypassing Jesus?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
That doesn't follow. The bypass is not referring to the heart but the arteries that supply the heart.
If a bypass surgery bypasses the heart, you're doing it wrong.
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
Lol.
Personally I feel that burials are a waste of precious earth that could be used for something useful.
My mom firmly wants to be cremated, I'm not exactly sure about the rest of my family but I think they feel the same way.
Currently, I would prefer to be cryonically frozen and "resurrected" if I'm found worth resurrecting, in a world of far-advanced health-care technology.
I don't know how farcical that hope is... Logically it seems sound, but I think part is wishful thinking. (I rather resent that which most people see as a sure end-point to my life, and hope it is not true)
Posted by Tstorm (Member # 1871) on :
I don't know of anyone here that considers cremation disrespectful. Of course, I'm not out interviewing people on the subject...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Personally I feel that burials are a waste of precious earth that could be used for something useful.
I love cemeteries, and I'm glad that we have them instead of using that land for something useful.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
quote:My friend's concern absolutely stemmed from concerns about the resurrection.
I used to think that the molecular structure of the body would be used in the resurrection when I was younger. I pictured the decaying process going backwords. The more I thought about it, the less it made sense. By the time of the resurrection you would have been absorbed into something else.
My views on death have changed, and it all started with a ST:NG episode. I was really impressed with the Klingon idea that once you are dead your body becomes a motionless shell to do with it what you will. Also, my religious objections were challenged when I continued to study the scriptures, particular about the Kindoms of Glory. My own belief is that we will be resurrected, but not with the same molecular structure of mortality.
From then on I decided that my body was going to be turned to dust and therefore why not save some time and space by cremation. Besides, I often find urns much more beautiful than caskets. However, something said in this thread has me worried. Can someone tell me if cremation is more expensive than burial?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Not intrinsically. Some funeral homes will try to sell you a fancy casket and embalming and other stuff you don't need. At any particular level, though, cremation is cheaper than burial. The best way to make sure your family doesn't get guilted into spending craploads of unnecessary money is to make your arrangements in advance.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Once I'm done with my body, it's not particularly important to me how it's disposed of. I'm a whole body donor, so after any useful organs are taken for transplantation, I assume the rest of my body will go to the cadaver room at a med school somewhere to be cut up by first year med students, who will make rude jokes about me to dispel the creepiness they feel at slicing up the dead. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I have in-laws (Mormon) who are opposed to organ donation and cremation (though I've never heard concerns about medically necessary amputation.)
I am an organ donor for transplant only and don't particularly care if what's left after they take what they can use is cremated or buried, though if I'm cremated I would want my ashes interred, not scattered and definitely not kept in the house-- that would just creep me out.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
If I were to choose, I'd like to be buried in a simple pine box in a beautiful cemetery and a nice headstone that I share with my wife.
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
Cremation, definitely. When people I love died, I always find it easier to cope if I know the body's gone, not in the dark, underground,decomposing. I wouldn't want to leave anyone wondering (the way I, unfortunately, tend to) every month how much of me had rotted away yet. I have an over-active imagination, but then so do a lot of people I know.
Take me to the beach on a sunny day and throw me in the ocean. Or scattered over the edge of the Grand Canyon under the stars.
Posted by cassv746 (Member # 11173) on :
While I was reading this thread I was also talking to my mom, and she's very up front with her "I want to be cremated stance." I've always known that though. Then I saw the link where you could have yourself turned into a diamond. So now thanks to Hatrack, my mom wants to be turned into a diamond when she dies. It's not that I don't think it's not a neat idea, I just don't know how comfortable I'd be with wearing her in a necklace or on a ring like that.Something about that just doesn't sit right with me.
It's also her birthday today, so that was kind of weird talking about her dying when it's her birthday.
I don't know what I'd want. I'm all for organ and tissue donation. My theory is that I'm not going to be using those body parts any more so why not give them to someone who could make good use of them? I guess after harvesting organs and tissue and stuff like that I definitely would not want a traditional burial. Therefore, I think I'll be cremated.
I live in central Ohio, and I've never heard of anyone who thought cremation was disrespectful to your body.
Also, like others have said, if God was able to create me He sure can figure out a way to put all my organs back together one day.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
So your mother has gone to the dark... err... sparkley side.
My wife thinks she would be comfortable wearing me as a necklace, but even if she can't, I think a sparkley diamone would be easier to have around the house than an urn.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Teres and I both plan to be cremated as the cheapest legal method, with any money set aside for memorials is to go towards a catered wake for friends and family, with any other donations going to charity. We don't begrudge others the desire to inter the bodies of their loved ones and erect monuments, we just don't feel any sort of urge in that direction ourselves.
We used to get calls from funeral homes once or twice a month. Our usual answers ranged from "We're not interested, thank you," to "we already have a family plot, thanks" (we don't), to "no, thank you, we eat our dead."
Once Teres took the call when she was home alone and busy with dinner. The offer was for free certificates for plots. The manw as very insistent and she finally said sure and gave our address, assuming they would be mailed.
I got home shortly afterwards to find her very annoyed. Turns out their rep was coming to the house and had just called to make sure he had the right street. He pulled into the driveway a few minutes later. Nice enough man but obviously determined to make his pitch. He gave us our free certificates, which were for 15% off burial plots (free certificates for plots, not certificates for free plots, you see).
We settled down to listen to him, but felt absolutely no obligation to take it seriously. We are ordinarily painfully polite people, but he more or less bulled his way into our home and we were feeling put upon.
Once inside he was very pleasant and friendly, and certainly the person I would approach to buy a burial plot if I was ever interested, but he was remarkably resistant to our polite insistence that we didn't want one. The fun began when he asked Teresa, "If something, God forbid, ever happened to your husband, what would be most on your mind?"
She answered, in all seriousness, "My alibi."
He laughed and said, "No, seriously, have you taken steps to prepare for that situation?"
I assured him that she had, and that, sparing no expense, she had invested in the really good garbage disposal, the one that can handle bones.
Like a judo master he used that to segue smoothly into why burial was better than cremation as cremation may not always do the job and the skull may be left intact, which was a tactical error because he had inadvertently succeeded in finally getting Teresa interested. "Really?" she said, leaning forward. "Would they let me have it? Could I put it on the mantelpiece?" That led to a furious husband-wife argument, which he patiently sat through, as I refused to allow her to display my skull unless she first got my teeth capped.
He tried showing us his book filled with beautiful photographs of coffins and final silk-lined destinations and only managed to amaze us at his racket. The very cheapest thing he had, clearly included to shame us into upgrading, was essentially a wax-lined cardboard box that went for $800. We considered it an outrage, since you could find ones like that behind the butcher's dumpster for free.
We realized he was doggedly ignoring us after he described his own burial plot and his headstone ("He Walked This Way") and asked what we thought his kids would think, and I answered "You liked Aerosmith?" and he never noticed.
When further discussions of our afterlife plans and the legacies for our future generations kept including the words "mulch," "reincarnation," and "Hefty Cinch Sack," he finally gave up. We thanked him for a fun and instructive evening.
There was one benefit. We never again got a call from a funeral home.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yeah, they probably put you on a do-not-call list. With a bunch of asterisks. Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Chris, I love you and Teres. That's all. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I realized I haven't stated my own preferences.
Well, while I like the idea of going up in flames more than I like the idea of rotting, I do think graves are important. I have a brother who died, and he is buried next to my mother. If I were to die now, my family would almost certainly put me next to my mother and brother.
The problem is that my mom and dad only bought four slots. Two are taken, and two are left. The present idea is that those two are for my dad and my stepmother. If I take one of them, then we just ran out of room. Either they will instead put me over by the slots by grandparents have, near my aunt who died, or else move all of us to the new part of the cemetary. Neither of those sound real appealing. I guess I can't die.
Although putting unmarried Pilkington girls next to each other (my aunt died when she was 21) is a little bit amusing to me.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I seem to remember a news story from some scenic overlook about the cleanup problem that existed from the number of people scattering their ashes there, and controversy over whether the ashes were thereafter thrown away by the maintenance workers. I think it may have been in Hawaii.
I thought about going to the cemetery yesterday, but all my kids voted against. I thought about if my firstborn were still alive, would he want to go to Arlington National Cemetery or the Air and Space museum? Definitely Air and Space.
My mom made a nice stepping stone with stained glass and a dark grout/mortar. I could see something like that being a very nice thing to do with ashes, that isn't too complicated. It could be put in the yard, so it's not in the house, and movable when we leave a place. I don't see my husband going for that, though. And it's okay, because he has a plot at Arlington. Though I've looked around there and it seems they must stack the caskets for a family when they do that, and carve the other name on the back of the stone. I get a plot unless we are divorced or I'm widowed and remarry... or something like that.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
You mean Arlington National Cemetary? Are you sure? I think you have to have a purple heart to be buried in Arlington nowadays (anymore).
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Nope - all that's needed is veteran status: link (Or a bunch of other things - but I imagine pooka's husband falls under veteran status.)
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
There was a story in the Washington Post about a veteran who was permitted to be buried in Arlington even though he had not received the purple heart - apparently it takes more than just being a veteran.
The cemetery almost full. I'm sure there must be more to it.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Looking at the link, it does take more than just having been a veteran. "Retired from the armed forces" does not mean simply having been in the armed forces and are no longer - it means having been career military long enough (25 years?) to take an official retirement from it.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I have heard people who believe in the literal resurrection of our bodies express disapproval for cremation because of that. It's never really made sense to me for many reasons, but I've certainly heard it.
I have head this as well, and the person speaking about it was VERY firm in her belief that those who are cremated cannot "rise from their graves" on Judgment day, and therefore are lost.
I told her that if God could raise the dead, I doubted that a body being ash and bone would stop him....and I doubted he would care either way.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: Teres and I both plan to be cremated as the cheapest legal method, with any money set aside for memorials is to go towards a catered wake for friends and family, with any other donations going to charity. We don't begrudge others the desire to inter the bodies of their loved ones and erect monuments, we just don't feel any sort of urge in that direction ourselves.
We used to get calls from funeral homes once or twice a month. Our usual answers ranged from "We're not interested, thank you," to "we already have a family plot, thanks" (we don't), to "no, thank you, we eat our dead."
Once Teres took the call when she was home alone and busy with dinner. The offer was for free certificates for plots. The manw as very insistent and she finally said sure and gave our address, assuming they would be mailed.
I got home shortly afterwards to find her very annoyed. Turns out their rep was coming to the house and had just called to make sure he had the right street. He pulled into the driveway a few minutes later. Nice enough man but obviously determined to make his pitch. He gave us our free certificates, which were for 15% off burial plots (free certificates for plots, not certificates for free plots, you see).
We settled down to listen to him, but felt absolutely no obligation to take it seriously. We are ordinarily painfully polite people, but he more or less bulled his way into our home and we were feeling put upon.
Once inside he was very pleasant and friendly, and certainly the person I would approach to buy a burial plot if I was ever interested, but he was remarkably resistant to our polite insistence that we didn't want one. The fun began when he asked Teresa, "If something, God forbid, ever happened to your husband, what would be most on your mind?"
She answered, in all seriousness, "My alibi."
He laughed and said, "No, seriously, have you taken steps to prepare for that situation?"
I assured him that she had, and that, sparing no expense, she had invested in the really good garbage disposal, the one that can handle bones.
Like a judo master he used that to segue smoothly into why burial was better than cremation as cremation may not always do the job and the skull may be left intact, which was a tactical error because he had inadvertently succeeded in finally getting Teresa interested. "Really?" she said, leaning forward. "Would they let me have it? Could I put it on the mantelpiece?" That led to a furious husband-wife argument, which he patiently sat through, as I refused to allow her to display my skull unless she first got my teeth capped.
He tried showing us his book filled with beautiful photographs of coffins and final silk-lined destinations and only managed to amaze us at his racket. The very cheapest thing he had, clearly included to shame us into upgrading, was essentially a wax-lined cardboard box that went for $800. We considered it an outrage, since you could find ones like that behind the butcher's dumpster for free.
We realized he was doggedly ignoring us after he described his own burial plot and his headstone ("He Walked This Way") and asked what we thought his kids would think, and I answered "You liked Aerosmith?" and he never noticed.
When further discussions of our afterlife plans and the legacies for our future generations kept including the words "mulch," "reincarnation," and "Hefty Cinch Sack," he finally gave up. We thanked him for a fun and instructive evening.
There was one benefit. We never again got a call from a funeral home.
I laughed so hard. My wife, who doesn't understand why I spend so much time on here, even laughed when I read it to her.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:I don't think this is true. I think cremation is gaining "popularity" and it is much more prevelant in some parts of the country than others.
I haven't been following this thread, but this bit caught my attention. There was a PBS Frontline episode called The Undertaking based on the book of the same name. It gives a glimpse into the life of a funeral director in Michigan. You can watch the whole thing here. If I remember correctly he does seem to believe that cremations are becoming more common.
It's a very interesting film. I would recommend it.
--j_k
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
So, what is the Jewish perspective on the Holocaust crematoriums? Do the rabbis have some sort of loophole for a genocide or martyr-type situation?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I don't know about a "loophole," but one is not held responsible for actions done against their will. However, it is worth pointing out that the memory of those crematoria contributes to abhorrence over the notion of cremation among many Jews -- even non-religious ones.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:However, it is worth pointing out that the memory of those crematoria contributes to abhorrence over the notion of cremation among many Jews -- even non-religious ones.
That makes a lot of sense.
Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
My Father has made provision in his will to have his ashes scattered at the top of a Welsh mountain. He has added a note that if it is windy we can mix beer in to the urn and daub his mortal remains onto the cliff face.
My mother wants to be left speradeagled on the church roof to give the birds a feed.
Personally I couldn't give tuppence.
By the way, I've never heard of cremetion being seen as disrespectful to the dead, but burial used to be seen as a higher 'class' of relative disposal (Kings get buried, paupers chucked on the pyre etc.).
*edit for urn-ness*
[ May 06, 2008, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: anti_maven ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by anti_maven: ...we can mix beer in to the earn....
"Urn" is the word you're looking for. I usually don't post corrections like this, but it took me long enough to parse what you were trying to say that I thought it'd be worthwhile.
Except for a flirtation with having my body plasticized (like those in the Bodyworks exhibit) back when I first read about the technology in the mid 80s, I've always wanted to have my organs donated and have the rest of my buried without being embalmed. I don't honestly care a whole lot, though; if people want to incinerate my body or whathaveyou I'm not going to be in a position to object.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Oh, these memory glass things in the google ad... I think my mom would love being turned into a Chihuly-esque paperweight!
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
Those are pretty cool. I told my wife because she really likes blown glass. She said a diamond was still cooler.
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Wound in a quilt, pine box, with a flowering plum planted over me.
I would rather rot aerobically than anaerobically.
And I think it would be nice for my family to have a viewing at home, with me on dry ice. My husband may not agree.
re: Organ Donation. My MIL just got a new heart two weeks ago. DH and I are ambivalent.
We want to do more research into organ donation as it's administered before deciding where we stand on it; we feel guilty to not totally support the practice and yet to have profited, emotionally, from it.
We are strict constructionists about life, and felt ooky when we got the phone call telling us that MIL was rushing to the hospital and they were keeping "her donor" alive (or "alive", depending on your opinion) until she was prepped.
It's beautiful and disturbing, organ donation.
Posted by DevilDreamt (Member # 10242) on :
I recently had a conversation about this very subject with a complete stranger. He thought that preference in this matter might be genetic. His ancestors came from England, and mine mostly from Austria, and we both agreed that cremation was the way to go. Nice and clean, and the thought of scattering the ashes to the wind appealed to both of us.
My grandfather donated his body to science. He's been dead for less than a year. I don't remember what university he went through to set up the donation. It made me feel closer to him, in that we both had a high respect for science and education. What pleases me the most is the idea that he may some day be part of a zombie army, which is exactly what I think science should be trying to do these days...
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I got an email from family recently that surprised me re: organ donation. They were saying that the participation in organ donation creates demand by which illegal harvesting goes on in prison camps in other countries. I thought that was really out there, though it had no bearing on why I didn't donate my son's organs.
I was just asked at the wrong time in the wrong way, or maybe I was in a wrong state of mind. It was "you son is dead, if we can use his organs, we have to act quickly" I think it may have been a different case because he'd been dead for a bit and they had been trying to resucitate.
I think organ donation is a generous thing that can extend and improve life. There may come a time, if we turn to cloning, that could change my attitude.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sachiko: [QB] re: Organ Donation. My MIL just got a new heart two weeks ago. DH and I are ambivalent.
What do you see as the negatives of the practice?
quote:We are strict constructionists about life
I don't know what this means. Could you elaborate?
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
I agree with organ donation in theory.
I buy my clothes at Goodwill; I think things with use left in them should be used, and it is decent to give things we don't need anymore to those who can.
However, I have concerns about how organ donation programs are administered.
I am a "strict constructionist" about life in that I feel we should err on the side of life as regards human embryos/fetuses/babies (pick the philosophically charged term you like).
That is, though I don't know when the spirit enters or leaves the body, human bodies are still more than just meat puppets.
I love the idea of organ donation as a gift from the grave; I don't like it when I think of it as utilitarianism invading the sense of the divine human body.
It disturbs me to think my MIL's donor was "kept alive" until their heart was cut out. I think we first seek to preserve the original relationship--that is, if your were born with that heart in your body, no matter how much someone else needs it, you have first dibs, and that's not selfish.
I have heard many stories about people being pressured into organ donation. I see that as an evil serving a good cause, and I wonder if the ends justify the means.
For instance, my uncle died last year, and only a few minutes after he "left", a nurse began pressuring my aunt to let in the guys to cut his eyes out.
My brother, who is a nurse, and who acted as a liason for my aunt, came into my uncle's room to find my aunt draping herself over my uncle's body and sobbing and trying to protect him.
Now, I'm not telling that to show that organ donation is evil; scenes like these are a logical byproduct of needing to harvest "living" organs from the freshly dead.
It does tell me that I need to decide on how I feel about organ donation NOW, and not when nurses with coolers and scalpels are shoving me aside so they can get to my husband's precious and stiffening body.
I want people who need organs to live, but not at the expense of the already living.
I think our humanity is defined not by how we look--whether our body is intact or human-looking or baby-looking, but is defined by how we treat others, especially the weak, vulnerable, or voiceless.
That's why I hate the organ donation issue. It's life versus life. I don't want to support a program that devalues any human life that is not considered qualitative enough for continuation, even if they are in a coma, or severely disabled.
I need to research more on how organ donation programs are administered. I fear that I'll find that too many medical people pressure people into giving up family members that are technically alive, but note alive "enough", for the sake of organs. I cannot support that.
(and now that I'm repeating myself I'll end my post. )
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Personally, I don't see any legitimate** organ donation system as being, in any way as "life versus live". Once the mind is gone, the person is gone. The body is just meat, and should be used to the best benefit of those living, whether that means being buried in perfect condition to please to the family of the deceased, or being stripped of every organ to help those in need.
But I'm a godless heathen/Hindu, too. I hope my husband either donates everything - to people or science. Second best would be to do whatever makes the most people happy. But I can't stand the thought of spending thousands of dollars on a funeral (especially since we're not religious in that way) when that money could save children from starving to death.
**As in, not like the Chinese organ "donation" system.
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Define "mind is gone".
At its logical conclusion, would this mean that anyone far more intelligent/aware than I am (and I am a real woogatherer sometimes) has greater claim upon my organs?
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
No - even if you're really, really stupid, you're still sentient. By "mind is gone" I essentially mean brain death, or such extensive injury that there's no possibility of the person regaining any mental function. It's pretty easy to see medically at this point whether there's no electrical activity happening in the brain or not. Obviously, this will be a moving point, depending on medical capability.
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Well, see, and this is where my "strict constructionism" kicks in.
Because it's a moving point, I do not trust it.
I'm not a Luddite or an anti-medical establishment person (though calling it "the medical establishment" certainly does make me sound like I'm against it )
but if it is going to be a moving point, then I would rather err on the side of Life, and life as it presents itself in the original ownership of body--you get first dibs on the organs you're born with.
Like I said, I obviously need to research this a lot more. These are only my gut reactions to the issue.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Ahhh, long post just was eaten!
Briefly, what is "terminal" is always a moving point in the medical community. Before respiratory technology became available, people whose lungs stopped spontaneously breathing would be dead at that point, even if now we could keep them breathing for pretty much forever, and hope for a breakthrough for the patient's condition.
If organ transplantation was available before respirators were (pretty sure it wasn't, but keep with me...), I'd say it would be perfectly okay for harvest that not-breathing person's organs (once it's clear that they aren't going to start breathing on their own in a minute). Today, not okay. In that time period they are dead, even if they wouldn't be today.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
I thought this article might interest those in this thread:
Is it really any greener than cremation? I mean, where do they get the lye? What concentration is it when it goes down the drain?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Jhai, I think I pretty much agree with that last point. Medical technology advances, we need to make sure ethics keeps up. My grandfather died of kidney failure; experimental (at the time) dialysis kept him alive 5 days longer than he would have lived without it, but ultimately was ineffective (too primitive and too late.) The decisions about whether to put him on or not were very complicated back then, as was the decision to discontinue it because it was ineffective. Now, modern dialysis would have let him live for years with his condition, and ultimately he might have gotten a transplant eventually. But he didn't live until now.
Posted by cremationurns (Member # 12741) on :
(Post Removed by Janitor Blade. Not the optimal way to serve Spam.)
[ January 17, 2012, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: JanitorBlade ]
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
Interesting suggestion! My preferred method is to dump me somewhere out of the way and let the carrion eaters go to town.
Also... whistled.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
And here I thought this topic was bumped because of the recent rather fascinating article from The Awl on the funeral industry. Apparently "in liberal secular states" cremations rates are up from single digits to more than half of all disposals.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
Makes sense.
On a more serious note, it's what I would choose. Whatever's the cheapest, most efficient way to get rid of my corpse is my preferred method.
Unless my loved ones want to keep me around for sentimental reasons, I suppose. Is it legal to taxidermy a human?
That was a less serious more serious note than I expected it to be.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I'm probably gonna go with cremation. If my family wants to erect a memorial that's fine, but I don't want to sit out in some graveyard taking up space the living could be using.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Using for what!?! Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
Fracking?
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
I don't think there are any cemeteries old enough for the human remains to have concentrated into fossil fuels.
...Yet. Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
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