I feel bad. I just picked a fight with my sons school. (he is 17, next year is his final year before studies).
He had a barbeque at school. Some of his fellow pupils were in school and messed the place up. Broke things stole things etc. I got a letter which stated that my son was one of the pupils that did outrageous things. He was to be punished at school. The letter ended that next year he had all the chances to let school see a better side of him.
I spoke to my son. He admitted he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. They weren't supposed to be IN the school at all. But he didn’t do anything of the breaking, steeling etc.
I believe him. He is not the type that does these things. He certainly is not a liar. The times he did do things that weren’t exactly within limits, he was not shy to tell about.
So I thought the letter from school was out of place. The language: outrage and “chance to prove himself” seemed to strong for what he did. Okay he shouldn’t have been there. If that was the only thing in the letter, okay. Even the punishment is oaky with me. (staying one saturday in school)
I called school and told them this. Then the rector said that he was busy all week with all this, and that the letter was justified because pupils misused the trust of school. Then I raised my voice saying that even then, the letter was too strong for what my son did. The rector said that, maybe the word outrage was too strong for my son, but that the rest of the letter stood. I eventually ended up excusing me for raising my voice and making it even more difficult for him.
I just hung up. I don’t feel good about this telephone call.
I am being too protective of my son? Is it my ego that is mad that the term “outrages act” is connected with my son? have I become the kind of parent that says: "my son wouldn't do that?" Have I made a fool out of myself? (and therefore made it more difficult for my son at school?)
I just feel bad about all this, feel I’m failing as a parent here.
(one thing I did good though, I didn’t jump on my son with the letter. I had a good talk with him, asking what he had done, and explaining why he was a fool to be there where he shouldn’t have been.)
Don’t know what to do with this. Feels unsatisfied.
Posted by bootjes (Member # 11624) on :
afterthought.
I just acted stupidly, and it bothers me because interpersonal communication is my job.
Nothing to do but to admit that where personal matters are concerned I sometimes screw things up.
Not so easy to do (admitting that is, the screwing up is easy as cake evidently)
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
My suggestion is not going to be supportive of your son or yourself. Probably not what you were expecting.
When your son says, "He admitted he was in the wrong place at the wrong time," I assume he was in the school. That means to me that he was either aware of what was going on or was involved in the acts. It must have been pretty bad for letters to be sent. Surprised there hasn't been any legal actions taken, other than that might cost the school more in costs. He is automatically guilty of "outrages acts" and needs to "prove himself," especially if the school was broken into. Teenagers should be treated as if you trust them, but you should never trust them. Even the good kids.
Parents who believe their kids are the good kids are simply enablers. In return, the teenagers learn how to manipulate the parents. If your kid has told you the bad things they have done, what haven't they told you?
I know this from experience. I was a teenager, the good kind. Never did anything illegal or worthy of getting in trouble by the school. That doesn't mean I never did anything wrong and certainly I knew of all the wrong things other "good kids" did. I love that you trust your son. I don't like that you don't trust the administrators. They deal with your son tons more than you do on any given week and probaby know him better.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I don't like that you don't trust the administrators. They deal with your son tons more than you do on any given week and probaby know him better.
If this is true (and there's very little chance Occasional knows what he's talking about) it is immensely sad.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
quote: If your kid has told you the bad things they have done, what haven't they told you?
Oh! the good things, right? darn those kids who admit to the bad things they've done!
Posted by Trent Destian (Member # 11653) on :
quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If your kid has told you the bad things they have done, what haven't they told you? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh! the good things, right? darn those kids who admit to the bad things they've done!
I see what Occasional trying to say here. With a good lie you need to make it believeable. When you've done something real bad and your parents are suspecting you, tell them somehting bad, something mild. To cover up the big stuff sprinkle people with the lesser evils to keep them off your back. "I'm sorry I broke the vase while you were gone" instead of saying "I threw a bitchin party like you told me not to and one of my drunk friends punted your favorite vase". Admit the small thing without any prompting, lay bare your transgression and no one will doubt. Standard operating procedure.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:I don't like that you don't trust the administrators. They deal with your son tons more than you do on any given week and probaby know him better. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If this is true (and there's very little chance Occasional knows what he's talking about) it is immensely sad. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I think is appropriate to say is that the administrators probably know more about how he behaves at school than his parent does.
I think that is probably quite true. I can't say for sure if the admin was out of line because I haven't seen the exact letter, but it doesn't sound too over the top to me - the kid has abused the trust of the school, and next year will be an opportunity for him to earn it back.
Posted by bootjes (Member # 11624) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:I don't like that you don't trust the administrators. They deal with your son tons more than you do on any given week and probaby know him better.
If this is true (and there's very little chance Occasional knows what he's talking about) it is immensely sad.
The administrators say, that the only thing they know for fact is that my son is seen in school. School wasn't broken into. The doors weren't locked. The kids weren't alowed in the school. I also know that other kids who did break and steal things have gotten more severe punishments. So they say that the only thing my son did wrong was not trying to stop the kids or/and not calling out for a teacher. I'm not saying my kid is an angel. I think that the letter was a little harsh. He has been 5 years in this school and never was out of line before. (though there were opportunities).
PS Occasional (and others), thanks for you reaction(s) : I didn't post here just to hear what I wanted to hear. So I am glad that you told what you think.
[ July 07, 2008, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: bootjes ]
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
I will just bring in two little comments here. Your son was in the wrong and you admit that! He was told not to be in the school and was in the school. He was with people who commited crimes, in a legal aspest then he is accountable for those crimes also. This is a lesson that will be good for him to learn now rather than later. Secondly, your son is 17 years old, it is time to back off a little and leave him to fight some of these non-issue items. Support him and help him see what could happen with the actions he takes, but you need to let him lead himself into adulthood and not always have to run back to his parents to bail him out of his problems.
Posted by hansenj (Member # 4034) on :
quote:I don't like that you don't trust the administrators. They deal with your son tons more than you do on any given week and probably know him better.
When I was in high school I had little to no interactions with the administrators on a daily basis. They most certainly didn't know me at all. Your point that kids spend more time of the day at school than at home doesn't mean the administrators have any idea what kind of kid he is unless he's getting in trouble frequently or he volunteers in the office. I would say that most kids are like I was, and they rarely have significant experiences with the administrators.
Posted by bootjes (Member # 11624) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lostinspace: I will just bring in two little comments here. Your son was in the wrong and you admit that! He was told not to be in the school and was in the school. He was with people who commited crimes, in a legal aspest then he is accountable for those crimes also. This is a lesson that will be good for him to learn now rather than later. Secondly, your son is 17 years old, it is time to back off a little and leave him to fight some of these non-issue items. Support him and help him see what could happen with the actions he takes, but you need to let him lead himself into adulthood and not always have to run back to his parents to bail him out of his problems.
you're right, thanks
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
quote:Originally posted by bootjes:
quote:Originally posted by Lostinspace: I will just bring in two little comments here. Your son was in the wrong and you admit that! He was told not to be in the school and was in the school. He was with people who commited crimes, in a legal aspest then he is accountable for those crimes also. This is a lesson that will be good for him to learn now rather than later. Secondly, your son is 17 years old, it is time to back off a little and leave him to fight some of these non-issue items. Support him and help him see what could happen with the actions he takes, but you need to let him lead himself into adulthood and not always have to run back to his parents to bail him out of his problems.
you're right, thanks
thank you also! I was a little afraid after posting this I would get torn down for making such comments! So thank you for taking the information so well. I wish all parents were able to deal with schools in this manner!
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I agree with Lostinspace in the respect that bootjes probably shouldn't be defending her son in breaking the rules. I disagree with the idea that bad behavior outside the home is a sign a parent is being too overbearing. The parent of a teen is ultimately in charge. If your child is off wandering around with crowds of rowdy teenagers and you don't know, it's not solely the school's responsibility to act.
That said, talking to your teen about what was going on is a good way of saying 'I'm paying attention.'
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: I agree with Lostinspace in the respect that bootjes probably shouldn't be defending her son in breaking the rules. I disagree with the idea that bad behavior outside the home is a sign a parent is being too overbearing. The parent of a teen is ultimately in charge. If your child is off wandering around with crowds of rowdy teenagers and you don't know, it's not solely the school's responsibility to act.
That said, talking to your teen about what was going on is a good way of saying 'I'm paying attention.'
I wasn't saying that they were being an overbearing parent. I was saying this situation is a good one to allow a teenager to handle themselves. There is a huge issue happening in society today where parents are not allowing their children to grow up. So all I was saying is that this seemed like an issue that a 17 year old should be able to handle on his own. I never reguarded it to his behavior was caused by an overbearing parent!
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
quote: I don't like that you don't trust the administrators. They deal with your son tons more than you do on any given week and probaby know him better.
I don't mean to contribute to an all out attack on you here, but on what planet do (edit: public) schools with that kind of administration exist?
Really, except for the 5% of students who are either constantly sucking up or constantly calling attention to themselves by doing what they shouldn't, no administrator is going to know a thing about how a particular student typically acts, in the school or out of it. In fact, I'll even go so far to say that if the administrators are doing their jobs, they shouldn't know that much about the tendencies of most individual students.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:I don't like that you don't trust the administrators. They deal with your son tons more than you do on any given week and probaby know him better.
If this is true (and there's very little chance Occasional knows what he's talking about) it is immensely sad.
Scott perhaps he does on occasion?
Posted by bootjes (Member # 11624) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lostinspace: I wasn't saying that they were being an overbearing parent. I was saying this situation is a good one to allow a teenager to handle themselves. There is a huge issue happening in society today where parents are not allowing their children to grow up. So all I was saying is that this seemed like an issue that a 17 year old should be able to handle on his own. I never reguarded it to his behavior was caused by an overbearing parent!
I read that as such.
(pssst. Teshi. . . . I am a he . . .)
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Not that I have much to add (I'm only 19 myself), but some kids "broke into" their small highschool last year in my hometown as a senior prank and did some damage, and the school's retaliation was to deny graduation to every student involved. Sooo ... while yes, I agree, it sounds like the phrasing in the letter was a little strong, it could have been much, much worse.
Also, from my perspective as a young'un, if my parent did that for me, regardless of whether or not it was a good reaction to the situation or not, it would almost definitely strengthen our relationship in the future.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lostinspace: He was with people who commited crimes, in a legal aspest then he is accountable for those crimes also. This is a lesson that will be good for him to learn now rather than later.
That's not neccesarily true. Our neighbor had two friends over- one brought a bb gun and the other one shot it into our house. I wanted all three boys charged (the one who shot wouldn't have had a bb gun to shoot without his friend providing it and it wouldn't have been our yard if not for our neighbor inviting people over). The police told us that they could only charge the shooter and the other two were doing nothing wrong legally.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I agree with Belle. I can't tell you how many times in fifteen years of teaching a parent has said that their son or daughter would not have cheated, would not have been having sex in the bathroom, would not have sold or possessed drugs, would not have threatened the teacher, despite not having any evidence for this certainty, based on the fact that they just knew their kids were too good. I've had parents that asserted I had to be mistaken about things I had seen, or actively lying, rather than acknowledge the things their kids had done.
Posted by bootjes (Member # 11624) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I've had parents that asserted I had to be mistaken about things I had seen, or actively lying, rather than acknowledge the things their kids had done.
Well, in this case the story I got from the school doesn't differ from the story my son told me.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
Icarus, I agree with you on the teacher knowing more, but an administrator, probably not.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
No teacher or administrator knows anything about me. They all know my name, but they also think I'm an emo who wants to kill myself.
Posted by manji (Member # 11600) on :
I don't know about that. My headmaster knew my name, my recent accomplishments, which colleges I was applying to, et cetera, all without me ever having spoken to the man before. It was pretty freaky.
And lest you think this was a mere fluke, he was pretty much able to do this with anyone. Of course, my school was a small one, with only about 70 students in my year. Still.
I wasn't one of the "bad" kids or even one of the "good" kids. I was merely average. Of course, I did have the bad habit of falling asleep in every single one of my classes.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by manji: I don't know about that. My headmaster knew my name, my recent accomplishments, which colleges I was applying to, et cetera, all without me ever having spoken to the man before. It was pretty freaky.
And lest you think this was a mere fluke, he was pretty much able to do this with anyone. Of course, my school was a small one, with only about 70 students in my year. Still.
I wasn't one of the "bad" kids or even one of the "good" kids. I was merely average. Of course, I did have the bad habit of falling asleep in every single one of my classes.
*nods* That's when they activated the mind-reading implant.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Theres about 1500 kids in my school.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
I would have to think the parents know their child the best, the teachers significantly less, and the administrators even less than that. But I also think it is pretty important to note that each of the three probably sees a different side of the child - a child may act in the hallways differently than he or she acts in the classroom which may be different from the way he or she acts at home.
As a result, I'd think it would be best if all three groups worked together, rather than against eachother. Combined they can paint a more accurate picture of the student.
In this particular case, it doesn't sound like that happened. What I'd wonder is why was he there in the school while this was going on?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
This is what I object to:
quote:[School officials] deal with your son tons more than you do on any given week
Parents should interact with their children TONS more than teachers interact with their students.
Just. Sad. Do I need to elaborate on why a parent should know their child better than a teacher?
Now Belle softened Occasional's criticism with some qualifications; even still. I think it inherent in parenthood to know your child better than anyone. The better to know when he's trying to snow you, at the very least.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:No teacher or administrator knows anything about me.
I don't think this is true. They probably know you much better than you think they do. In fact, some probably understand things about you that you don't know about yourself. But, again, they still only know a small part of you - the part they can observe while you are in school.
Posted by bootjes (Member # 11624) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: I would have to think the parents know their child the best, the teachers significantly less, and the administrators even less than that. But I also think it is pretty important to note that each of the three probably sees a different side of the child - a child may act in the hallways differently than he or she acts in the classroom which may be different from the way he or she acts at home.
As a result, I'd think it would be best if all three groups worked together, rather than against eachother. Combined they can paint a more accurate picture of the student.
In this particular case, it doesn't sound like that happened. What I'd wonder is why was he there in the school while this was going on?
He was there because he is a teenager and was curiuos about what was going on. He found an ID card of one of his classmates and went in school to give it back. That being of course the ideal excuse for him to see what was going on. Not much after that he left the scene an bumped into a teacher while leaving. This is exactly what the school has confirmed.
Normally I am at very good terms with this school. We have good contact with most of the teachers. We do stand side by side with the teachers for our kids. I do take the teachers serious. At parents nights we are not auomatically invited because all is well. We ask for a meeting anyhow, because we want te know what the teachers think of our kid. They see a different part of our kids and we want to see it too. My son got "compliments of all his teachers" written next to his grades. His mentor told us that it was not only about the grades themselves but also because of his attitide in class.
For my 12 year old daughter we have been in close contact with elementary school, because her brain is somewhat slow in changing from one subject to another. We will be in contact with this school for her also.
(I have four kids son 17, daughters 15, 11, and 9)
In this particular case it was just the frasing in the letter that freaked me out, and I acted too fast. I was feeling bad about that, so I wrote here.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I'm not arguing with you, bootjes. I have no way of knowing any specifics about your situation, and I have no reason to doubt you.
I was just weighing in on the related issue being discussed by Occasional, Scott R, and Belle--how well each group of adults knows the kids in their lives. And I'm reflecting on the worst that I've seen, not on the best. In my experience the parents of the most disrespectful kids very often seem to not know them very well. Of course, that's hyperbolic. I'm sure they know them quite well, but it feels to me, sometimes, like they're describing kids who don't seem to exist. Those examples I listed above correspond to real kids. Kids who have done things only to have their parents say they were certain they had not, because they knew their kids and their kids would never do this or that. (I even had one father threaten to beat me up over the malicious lies I was telling about his daughter!)
I have also rarely seen any parents who say anything approaching "I don't support the school and the teachers. I take my kids' side in all things." On the other hand, I have had tons of parents talk to me about how much they value education, and how much they support teachers. Often they say this as a preface to an occasion where they are not going to be supportive, explaining that they usually support the school/teachers, just not this time, because this time the school/teachers are wrong, because their child would never do whatever it is s/he has been accused of, because the parent knows the child too well to accept this possibility.
(Incidentally, whenever this happens, we never, as a school, get into disputes with parents over what their kids would or would not do. When a parent says "My daughter did not cheat, because she told me she did not and she would not lie to me," our response tends to be, "Okay, then. In any case, she showed poor judgment when she had her friend's test on top of her desk, because it makes the coincidental fact that all of her answers were the same as her friends look so suspicious. The consequence she will suffer is for that lapse in judgment, not for cheating, since, as you say, she would not have done that." "Your son showed poor judgment when he picked up that joint in the bathroom that did not belong to him and which he had not been smoking. You can certainly see how many people would jump to the obviously erroneous conclusion that he was actually smoking the marijuana himself, and not merely examining the unusual sight of a joint. It's a shame, we agree, that he should be suspended just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Hopefully next time he sees a joint that does not belong to him abandoned in the boys room, he'll leave it alone and find an adult to tell about it." Very often for us, "wrong place at the wrong time" is code for "we know s/he did it, but you refuse to acknowledge it and no good can come from arguing with you, so we're dropping the question of actual guilt.")
Again, I'm not saying this about you, but I'm addressing Scott R's assertion that parents *should* know their children better than teachers and administrators and not be easily snowed. It certainly should be that way, but in my experience it's quite often not. And the parents for whom that's not true are never aware. They're willfully complicit in their own snowing.
(I promise, I'm not intentionally being backhanded or passive-aggressive. Just talking about some realities I've seen unrelated to the reality of your situation, though indirectly inspired by your post.)
As for the situation you describe, I'll admit I don't really have a grasp for what the incident was at all. You have alluded to details in passing without giving a clear account, for which I don't blame you. I'd be reticent to share a lot of details with internet strangers as well.
That being said, and given my very incomplete understanding of the situation, a strongly worded letter of reprimand does not strike me as an inappropriate consequence. I'm failing to grasp why you find it so objectionable.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
FWIW, I have kids and have been on the wrong side of conferences with the school myself. Raising kids is difficult. More challenging than I ever imagined. I wish you all the best.
Posted by bootjes (Member # 11624) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: FWIW, I have kids and have been on the wrong side of conferences with the school myself. Raising kids is difficult. More challenging than I ever imagined. I wish you all the best.
thanks
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I'm not arguing with you, bootjes. I have no way of knowing any specifics about your situation, and I have no reason to doubt you.
I was just weighing in on the related issue being discussed by Occasional, Scott R, and Belle--how well each group of adults knows the kids in their lives. And I'm reflecting on the worst that I've seen, not on the best. In my experience the parents of the most disrespectful kids very often seem to not know them very well. Of course, that's hyperbolic. I'm sure they know them quite well, but it feels to me, sometimes, like they're describing kids who don't seem to exist. Those examples I listed above correspond to real kids. Kids who have done things only to have their parents say they were certain they had not, because they knew their kids and their kids would never do this or that. (I even had one father threaten to beat me up over the malicious lies I was telling about his daughter!)
I have also rarely seen any parents who say anything approaching "I don't support the school and the teachers. I take my kids' side in all things." On the other hand, I have had tons of parents talk to me about how much they value education, and how much they support teachers. Often they say this as a preface to an occasion where they are not going to be supportive, explaining that they usually support the school/teachers, just not this time, because this time the school/teachers are wrong, because their child would never do whatever it is s/he has been accused of, because the parent knows the child too well to accept this possibility.
(Incidentally, whenever this happens, we never, as a school, get into disputes with parents over what their kids would or would not do. When a parent says "My daughter did not cheat, because she told me she did not and she would not lie to me," our response tends to be, "Okay, then. In any case, she showed poor judgment when she had her friend's test on top of her desk, because it makes the coincidental fact that all of her answers were the same as her friends look so suspicious. The consequence she will suffer is for that lapse in judgment, not for cheating, since, as you say, she would not have done that." "Your son showed poor judgment when he picked up that joint in the bathroom that did not belong to him and which he had not been smoking. You can certainly see how many people would jump to the obviously erroneous conclusion that he was actually smoking the marijuana himself, and not merely examining the unusual sight of a joint. It's a shame, we agree, that he should be suspended just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Hopefully next time he sees a joint that does not belong to him abandoned in the boys room, he'll leave it alone and find an adult to tell about it." Very often for us, "wrong place at the wrong time" is code for "we know s/he did it, but you refuse to acknowledge it and no good can come from arguing with you, so we're dropping the question of actual guilt.")
Again, I'm not saying this about you, but I'm addressing Scott R's assertion that parents *should* know their children better than teachers and administrators and not be easily snowed. It certainly should be that way, but in my experience it's quite often not. And the parents for whom that's not true are never aware. They're willfully complicit in their own snowing.
(I promise, I'm not intentionally being backhanded or passive-aggressive. Just talking about some realities I've seen unrelated to the reality of your situation, though indirectly inspired by your post.)
As for the situation you describe, I'll admit I don't really have a grasp for what the incident was at all. You have alluded to details in passing without giving a clear account, for which I don't blame you. I'd be reticent to share a lot of details with internet strangers as well.
That being said, and given my very incomplete understanding of the situation, a strongly worded letter of reprimand does not strike me as an inappropriate consequence. I'm failing to grasp why you find it so objectionable.
Icarus, this is very well worded. I have to remember the wrong place wrong time scenario incase I need to use it. I have seen many a situation where a parent says this is not how my child acts. But honsestly when parents say they know them better, I wonder in the society that exists today if they really do. Kids come home and run to their rooms where they have their own computers, tv and stereos. They may come out and eat a meal with their family. It is sad that society has come to that place. But asfar as punishment goes, I always head back to when I was in 8th grade and I got a detention for something I did not do. I went home and complained to my mom about it and she sent me to my room to make a list of everything I ever did wrong in my life that I got away with, wow was that ever eye opening. And I love my mom for it, because I have never said something was not fair after that point. Life is not fair from both sides of the coin!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:. . . I was in 8th grade and I got a detention for something I did not do. I went home and complained to my mom about it and she sent me to my room to make a list of everything I ever did wrong in my life that I got away with, wow was that ever eye opening. And I love my mom for it, because I have never said something was not fair after that point.
Brilliant! I'll have to remember that!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Oh, that is awesome.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*makes note*
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
quote:Originally posted by Occasional: Teenagers should be treated as if you trust them, but you should never trust them. Even the good kids.
Parents who believe their kids are the good kids are simply enablers. In return, the teenagers learn how to manipulate the parents. If your kid has told you the bad things they have done, what haven't they told you?
I am 18, and as of now live with my parents.
I love my parents for their trust, and I respect that trust which I have earned and I behave in ways that allow me to keep that trust. I don't manipulate my parents. Your statement is too cruel and broad. I feel my parents' trust is well founded. I can't think of much to say without speculating about other people's families and the proper courses of action for parents. I just count myself as a good kid, and I have a healthy respect for my parents esteem for me, and I know that if I ruin that esteem, that respect for who I am, what I do, and the things surrounding my life, that that will follow me through life... I might do some things my parents would disagree with (probably not what you are thinking right now) but I believe in my own sense of judging what things I should do or not do well enough to not feel absoLUTELY restrained by what my parents would say.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I'm not sure, but I think my parents believe I'm far worse/more incompetent than I actually am
But I too have things that I've got away with. Mostly they took place years ago, though. Should I really accept a lesser view of me because of things I did as a child that nobody ever knew about?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote: Teenagers should be treated as if you trust them, but you should never trust them. Even the good kids.
Wow. I missed this somehow.
No. No. No.
I cannot disagree enough. It's vital to the parent-child relationship that both parties can trust one another. I'd even go so far as to say that the health of the relationship-- its strength, its depth, its effectiveness-- is directly related to the trust shown and felt by those involved.
This doesn't mean you blindly trust your kids. It means that you know them well enough that you can discern when they're telling the truth, and when they aren't. Children are bound to stretch your trust; some may even break it. An adult, though, is someone who can take steps to mend the break, repair the errant behavior (because while YOUR trust is broken, the child's faith in you should never be misplaced), and strengthen the relationship.
That's what a parent DOES.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Scott, do you have any teenagers? I'm wondering how well your ideas translate into reality. Specifically, do you really think you can tell when your kids are lying? How would you know, if you generally trust them as long as you don't "discern" a lie?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:How would you know, if you generally trust them as long as you don't "discern" a lie?
Generally, I can tell when my kids are lying.
I don't know if this will carry over into when they become teenagers. I *do* know it's an ideal that I need to shoot for.
I'm convinced that a trust-fault is a large factor in poor parent-child relationships.
Will my teenager lie to me? Probably, and I'll be hurt. I'm an adult though-- I know how to get over emotional pain, and work to make things better and stronger.
NOT trusting my children doesn't enter into the equation.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Scott, do you have any teenagers?
He doesn't -- yet.
I'm looking forward to hearing him discuss this subject again in a few years. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
You seem skeptical, rivka.
I'm surprised.
And not pleasantly.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Scott, I sincerely admire your ideals and the evident amount of effort you put into parenting. It's not condescending or rude though, IMO, to expect that you're in for some surprises when you have older kids. I know lots of great parents whose kids completely snowed them and/or managed to defeat all their efforts to guide their behavior.
This probably doesn't contradict anything you've said, but I suspect it may color the idealism of your viewpoint after it happens (if it happens).
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: You seem skeptical, rivka.
I'm surprised.
And not pleasantly.
Sorry, Scott.
I'm trying to figure out a way to explain that I trust my teen and almost-teen . . . and yet, I don't. Not entirely.
I certainly don't delude myself into thinking I can always tell when they are telling the truth. And I think it is incredibly naive to think that if you "really know your kids" that you will be able to either.
OTOH, I do trust them in many ways. My oldest just left the house with a bus pass and a cell phone. I trust her to go to her volunteer job (a job she got by herself and because she wanted it) at the library, and to pick up her younger sibs from camp after that.
OTOOH, I ask her to show me her homework when it's done. And I check in with her (that's why the cellphone) throughout the day.
Teenagers are under huge amounts of stress -- biological, academic, parental, social/peer. Expecting that to not express itself in unexpected and potentially dangerous or harmful ways is naive.
Also, what scifibum said. Exactly!
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
kay kay kay hey I speak very bluntly and don't often lie so my mom knows immediatly when I'm lying.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Practice makes perfect. The important thing is to keep trying. Builds character.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Scott, if I were your child's teacher, and we ended up in a "my word against yours" situation, like say I said I watched your child walk into the lunch line, grab a food item, and quickly walk back out, bypassing the line for the cash register, and your child said it never happened, would your faith in your child extend to the point of believing I must be lying or mistaken when I say very plainly that I saw this happen and that there were no mitigating or obfuscating circumstances?
I think I need to know to what extremes trusting your children goes before I can determine how I feel about your post.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I had a parent once say to me, when her son was painting an actively dishonest portrayal of what went on in my classroom (actively as in it wasn't about interpretation, but he was claiming I said and did things that I never said and did), "Look, I know my child is not perfect. He has his version, you have your version, and I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle." Um, no. This Mean Value of Truth Theorem is asinine on the face of it.
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I had a parent once say to me, when her son was painting an actively dishonest portrayal of what went on in my classroom (actively as in it wasn't about interpretation, but he was claiming I said and did things that I never said and did), "Look, I know my child is not perfect. He has his version, you have your version, and I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle." Um, no. This Mean Value of Truth Theorem is asinine on the face of it.
This is a hard thing to justify saying though, because we do all take things in different ways. I remember once thinking a teacher called me stupid. She never really did, I was working on a project and goofed it up and she took it from me and said here let me show you the right way to do this...well in my mind that was saying I was stupid. I took it that way, but then I tend to always go to the worst extremes of things when they happen. I always take that into effect when dealing with a situation in the classroom. I know it can be hard when a student takes it to extremes but in those situations sometimes you have to be the person to take the high ground.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
We perceive things differently, sure. And sometimes that statement is accurate. But to use it as a general guiding principal is based on several faulty assumptions. In this case, there's the assumption that a responsible teacher and an eleven-year-old with a history of getting in trouble with all his teachers have equal motivation to lie.
Sometimes one person is just lying. Sometimes, in a dispute, one person is just right and one is just wrong. Believing the truth is always in the middle of any two extremes seems like taking moral relativism to an absurd point.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: Scott, if I were your child's teacher, and we ended up in a "my word against yours" situation, like say I said I watched your child walk into the lunch line, grab a food item, and quickly walk back out, bypassing the line for the cash register, and your child said it never happened, would your faith in your child extend to the point of believing I must be lying or mistaken when I say very plainly that I saw this happen and that there were no mitigating or obfuscating circumstances?
I think I need to know to what extremes trusting your children goes before I can determine how I feel about your post.
It depends on how I feel about you as a teacher, doesn't it?
Are you that teacher from 'Lost Boys?' Or are you Mr. Holland? Or are you Icarus, who I virtually trust is a good teacher, and who has shown himself to be a pretty sterling guy online?
If it's you, then I suppose I take your word over my child's.
I believe in being an involved parent, though, so I try to get to know the teachers who are responsible for my children. We have had an experience where we did not feel the teacher was fit to be a teacher, and in that case, we complained to the school, and removed our child from that environment.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I don't think I have a problem with what you're saying then. I think it just lends itself to reading more into it than you've actually said.
I'm not sure we're the same people when we're in different contexts, though. I think some parents know their children well in the context of home, when there are no peers and there is no peer pressure, and don't really know the people their kids become when they are surrounded by a hundred of their peers. But I think these parents I'm thinking of have to be a bit willfully ignorant. Like I can see trusting a child who has never, to your knowledge, abused your trust. But if your child keeps having run-in after run-in, where the only explanation that doesn't involve distrusting the child is that dozens of teachers are dishonest and on some sort of vendetta, that's where one reaches the point of being absurdly credulous. At some point it's necessary to ask, "Why do people keep saying this about you?" One bizarrely dishonest adult is not, unfortunately, so unlikely as to be unbelievable. Legions of them are.
It doesn't sound to me like you're like that--that credulous, I mean. Believe it or not, though, there really are people out there who are. I think the disagreement you're getting here is that people read your words and it almost sounds like you're saying you'd believe your kid in all circumstances. And that's making those of us who are or were teachers twitch. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:It doesn't sound to me like you're like that--that credulous, I mean. Believe it or not, though, there really are people out there who are. I think the disagreement you're getting here is that people read your words and it almost sounds like you're saying you'd believe your kid in all circumstances. And that's making those of us who are or were teachers twitch.
Aha.
Even though I said:
quote:This doesn't mean you blindly trust your kids. It means that you know them well enough that you can discern when they're telling the truth, and when they aren't. Children are bound to stretch your trust; some may even break it.
And
quote:Will my teenager lie to me? Probably, and I'll be hurt.
:shrug:
Posted by Lostinspace (Member # 11633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: We perceive things differently, sure. And sometimes that statement is accurate. But to use it as a general guiding principal is based on several faulty assumptions. In this case, there's the assumption that a responsible teacher and an eleven-year-old with a history of getting in trouble with all his teachers have equal motivation to lie.
Sometimes one person is just lying. Sometimes, in a dispute, one person is just right and one is just wrong. Believing the truth is always in the middle of any two extremes seems like taking moral relativism to an absurd point.
I think even in a situation where someone is clearly lying, you must agree that your perception is not necessarly 100% accurate to how it occured. I don't mean to argue but like I said I know I am that person who sees things as black or white..not gray! I have to take into account the situation and how I percieve it. I often will ask others their intake of the situation also, even my students who observed the situation. I have little forms that they can fill out when a occurance happens in my classroom. Maybe I get that from having worked in Special Education for so many years where everyone seems to percieve things differently.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I think the disagreement you're getting here is that people read your words and it almost sounds like you're saying you'd believe your kid in all circumstances. And that's making those of us who are or were teachers twitch.
Not so much in my case. For me, it's the notion that he will absolutely be able to tell when his teens are lying. And the implication that anyone who cannot with their teens doesn't know them well enough or have a good enough relationship with them.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I think the disagreement you're getting here is that people read your words and it almost sounds like you're saying you'd believe your kid in all circumstances. And that's making those of us who are or were teachers twitch.
Not so much in my case. For me, it's the notion that he will absolutely be able to tell when his teens are lying. And the implication that anyone who cannot with their teens doesn't know them well enough or have a good enough relationship with them.
Ahem:
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:How would you know, if you generally trust them as long as you don't "discern" a lie?
Generally, I can tell when my kids are lying.
I don't know if this will carry over into when they become teenagers. I *do* know it's an ideal that I need to shoot for.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I saw. I'm reserving a response for a few years. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:[Scott R implied] that anyone who cannot with their teens doesn't know them well enough or have a good enough relationship with them.
I didn't say this, either. I said that it would be sad if a teacher knew a child better than a parent did.
Here:
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:I don't like that you don't trust the administrators. They deal with your son tons more than you do on any given week and probaby know him better.
If this is true (and there's very little chance Occasional knows what he's talking about) it is immensely sad.
And here I explain what I mean:
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: This is what I object to:
quote:[School officials] deal with your son tons more than you do on any given week
Parents should interact with their children TONS more than teachers interact with their students.
Just. Sad. Do I need to elaborate on why a parent should know their child better than a teacher?
Now Belle softened Occasional's criticism with some qualifications; even still. I think it inherent in parenthood to know your child better than anyone. The better to know when he's trying to snow you, at the very least.
Maybe you're reading some sort of weird parallel universe Scott R.
I want his address so I can beat the crap out of him.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote: Teenagers should be treated as if you trust them, but you should never trust them. Even the good kids.
Wow. I missed this somehow.
No. No. No.
I cannot disagree enough. It's vital to the parent-child relationship that both parties can trust one another. I'd even go so far as to say that the health of the relationship-- its strength, its depth, its effectiveness-- is directly related to the trust shown and felt by those involved.
This doesn't mean you blindly trust your kids. It means that you know them well enough that you can discern when they're telling the truth, and when they aren't. Children are bound to stretch your trust; some may even break it. An adult, though, is someone who can take steps to mend the break, repair the errant behavior (because while YOUR trust is broken, the child's faith in you should never be misplaced), and strengthen the relationship.
That's what a parent DOES.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I don't see how that supports your claims. I think it refutes them handily.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ok. I would point you to the italicized part, but you can read it as well as I. Clearly what you think you are saying and what I think you are saying are not the same.
Darn lack of telepathy.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I'm sorry you're miffed, Scott. I'm actually trying to be agreeable.
It may be that you've got elements in your post that don't contradict each other, but that mitigate each other. And maybe the first part, the "my relationship with my kids is based on trust" part, is phrased strongly enough that many of us just aren't catching the places where you mitigate that, the first time through. That's why, even though I thought I was getting you, I felt the need to create a specific scenario, because it was not absolutely clear to me how you would react.
I think the thing is that a lot of parents feel they know when their kids are lying. So "I would know if my kids were lying" can sound a lot like "I believe everything my kids say."
In fact, a number of parents seem to make a point of being credulous as a way of sucking up to their own kids. "I got your back, junior." In my experience, step-parents are sometimes particularly bad about this. In fact, the incident that led to a parent threatening to beat me up was agitated by a step-mother who was intent on proving how much she trusted her step-daughter.
I get that that's not what you're saying.
[ July 11, 2008, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Ok. I would point you to the italicized part, but you can read it as well as I. Clearly what you think you are saying and what I think you are saying are not the same.
Darn lack of telepathy.
Actually, now that I look at it again, I see your point, rivka.
I think parents SHOULD strive to know their children well enough to know when they're telling a lie. I'm never going to apologize for that. But being snowed by your teen doesn't mean you're a bad parent, necessarily.
Some parents can be there every second for their child; they can be trying their best, and the kid just turns out rotten for whatever reason.
Far be it from me to even imply that they are bad parents based on that information alone.
In general, my intent is stick to my ideal-- that I should have such a close relationship to my children that 1) they don't ever feel the need to lie to me, 2) I'm clued in enough to their personalities and emotions I know when they ARE lying to me, and 3) they're are confident enough in my love that they can admit lying to me.
I don't expect that either of us (the children or me) will be perfect. The idea is to be trying to meet the ideal.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I think parents SHOULD strive to know their children well enough to know when they're telling a lie.
And I think you are seriously underestimating the ability of teenagers to lie -- fluently, charmingly, and incredibly convincingly. I say that not only as the parent of a teen and pre-teen (neither of whom is all that good at lying to me, but both have their moments) and the former teacher of hundreds of teens, many of whom were amazingly gifted in that regard. Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Ehh they are 3 types of teens good, bad and Ts (or average whatever you wanna call it) Goods lie but don't do bad stuff. Bads do bad stuff and lie. Ts don't lie and do some bad things.
From what I've expierienced the better liars are goods. Goods are also the easiest to trick into doing bad stuff and trick into taking the blame. Bads are sometimes horrible at lying but very good at not getting caught or worming others into taking the blame. Ts, well we certainly are horrible at lying and hiding what we do, but we somehow we get out of it (or are we just good at not getting severe punishment?).
Just my onion (yes a tribute to clandestineguitarplayer the first posts I ever saw)
edit: clarity
[ July 11, 2008, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: T:man ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I think you are seriously underestimating the ability of teenagers to lie
I'm not. I may be overestimating my ability to pick up on lies, though.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
You know, the rest of the sentence was there for a reason.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
?
Posted by bootjes (Member # 11624) on :
Maybe I lost my credibility to say something on this subject but I’ll try anyhow
1. Teens have brains under construction. I learned that there have been studies that point out that Teens don’t have the brains to make long-term judgments. Therefore they still need parents to do this. So even If I trust my teens, I do want to help them with these long term decisions , braking them up in smaller parts. This is where checking homework etc. comes in.
2. I think kids have less reason to lie if parents are not judgemental while they are judging. I think one of the reasons that kids lie is to live up to the sometimes hard moral standards of their parents.
* checking my use of English words here: * With judgemental I mean thinking: “You are a bad person to do these things”. With judging I mean: “You must not do these things” sec. The difference is the moral opinion that is being forced upon someone.
(On the whole I succeed at not being judgemental. This is why I was so shocked to find out how easily I screwed up on this matter. I was being judgemental about school, and in fact, also about the things that happened there, and about what kind of kid my son is. Most of the time I am in the “non-judgemental mode” but here I slipped. It took me some time to snap out of my “judgemental-mode”. Used all your help to do it, so again thanks. I have learned from this. I hope it will help me being a better parent. It has helped me being less judgemental about being judgemental)
I think that one of the things Scott means is that he tries to be not judgemental And so not giving his kids reason to lie. I actually think he will succeed in that.
An other reason to lie comes with the short-term brain. Kids want something, they don’t see the long term effects. They only notice that their parents have a habit to restrict them (for no good reason to them). So a little lying helps to keep the parents from too much unwanted intervention. I think that these lies are the harder to prevent. It is in the nature of kids to try things out for themselves.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by bootjes: Maybe I lost my credibility to say something on this subject . . .
I don't know why you would think that; I hope that it's not because of anything I've said. I've tried to make it clear that I was not addressing the specifics of what your son did, or your parenting, but just going off on a related tangent, in particular to the notion that parents know their kids well enough to know when their kids are lying.
I do disagree with your original position on the letter, but only insofar as I understand the situation at all. And that disagreement certainly doesn't mean you've "lost credibility."
Posted by bootjes (Member # 11624) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I hope that it's not because of anything I've said.
No, just because of my blunder.
quote: I do disagree with your original position on the letter, but only insofar as I understand the situation at all.
I disagree with my original position also.
quote: And that disagreement certainly doesn't mean you've "lost credibility."
good to read!
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
You most definitely have not lost credibility, you are a parent wondering if he has done the right thing - heck, the very fact that you wonder says you are a better parent than some, who believe both they and their kids can do no wrong! (Note - I am thinking here of some very irrational parents I know and their very spoiled kids - none of whom visit Hatrack so please no one assume I'm talking about anyone on this thread!)
None of us are perfect and all of us make mistakes. One thing a friend told me and that I have used with my teenage daughter is to admit both to myself and to her that this is new territory. My daughter has never been a fifteen year old before. I have never been the parent of her at fifteen before. It's new territory for all of us, and we're all learning. We'll make mistakes, but we'll muddle through.
I think it's very important for kids to know that you don't think you're perfect.
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And I check in with her (that's why the cellphone) throughout the day.