The lack of morals, of simple human decency, of, hell, of anything resembling the better aspects of humanity really freaks me out. I can handle monsters--genocidal leaders, dictators, whatever--because it is vast and at least they believe there is a purpose, however skewed. Here, though . . . well, this is just viciousness for its own sake, for instant easy gratification.
Honestly, the guy they interview--Jason Fortuny--I don't buy his excuses. Lots of people have hard lives, so I don't accept that. And his explanations for what he does, those ring pretty false, sound more like after-the-fact justifications.
Particularly the bit with the Epilepsy Foundation's website (which disgusted me even more, because working with epilepsy treatment has given me a much stronger appreciation of how awful it is). He claims that he's--what, teaching people to be more careful about the Internet? To watch out for someone who will intrude on a safe space and do something potentially life-threatening? Wait, no, that's exactly what he did. That's like a murderer shooting a fellow, then claiming he was just trying to teach the guy he oughtta wear a bulletproof vest when he goes out.
What do you think? Is this even vaguely justifiable, any of it? Why does someone do stuff like this?
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
It sounds vaguely sociopathic to me.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
There is a thread, but having a second link is useful since NYT requires registration.
--j_k
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
He is a putz, and nothing he says will change that. What an ass.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
quote: "Lulz is watching someone lose their mind at their computer 2,000 miles away while you chat with friends and laugh," said one ex-troll who, like many people I contacted, refused to disclose his legal identity.
I'm used to that with real people. I call it The Game. I don't know if my mom just attracts the manipulative type or what, but they've been around as long as I can remember.
Personally, I play the Anti-Game. Your goal is to make me angry. My goal is to frustrate you by not giving in. If I get mad, you win. If I show no emotion until you go away, I win.
It's pretty sick, but it's the only I way I know to not get regualarly sucked in. The people who get mad just get it more often, especially if they're a Game Player themself.
quote: It is tempting to blame technology, which increases the range of our communications while dehumanizing the recipients. But this does not explain the initial trolling impulse, which seems to spring from a destructive human urge that many feel but few act upon.
That I completely agree with. Technology just makes The Game easier to play.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
They should get out more and actually have sex with girls.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Blayne, let's be fair here. There are homosexual men and heterosexual women who never have sex with girls and don't do this sort of thing.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Personally, I play the Anti-Game. Your goal is to make me angry. My goal is to frustrate you by not giving in.
The problem is, they hold all the cards. Because you're just defending against or trying to ignore them, all they have to do is penetrate those defenses once to "win." And there are thousands of them and they have nothing better to do.
Consider what the griefers have done on various MMOs, where they can focus on tearing down someone's "accomplishments" without building up any of their own. All they need to do is figure out which thing you care about, and then ruin it for you.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Joldo: Blayne, let's be fair here. There are homosexual men and heterosexual women who never have sex with girls and don't do this sort of thing.
But they should!
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
quote: Because you're just defending against or trying to ignore them, all they have to do is penetrate those defenses once to "win." And there are thousands of them and they have nothing better to do.
True, but non-reaction is boring. And there are a lot of other things to do in a day. I generaly find that 20-30 minutes is the max attention span on most folks. If you can hold out for a half hour, they're almost guaranteed to go away.
MMOs probably work a little different. I played back in the day when there were GMs to handle that sort of thing. On EQ1 no less. I've gotten the impression that there's less oversight now, but I haven't played in so long, I have no idea how it's usually handled. Guild revenge? Training half the zone on the guy?
The Anti-Game would only work if everyone refused to play while the trolls were causing problems and call the company to let them know about the ultimatum. The trolls would either give up out of boredom or be thrown out by a company afraid of losing their entire player base. Short of a full on strike, though, it would be totally ineffective in a confined space.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
nowadays the GMs just say "we do not condone griefing as it is well within the context of the game" although they make the exception for griefing newbies in the newbie zones.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I knew a guy like this, once. He was the most unprepossessing person you could possibly imagine in real life. He seemed so nice, though when you got to know him better there were plenty of signs of personal pathology. But in fact he was (is, I suppose... he's likely still alive) a complete sociopath, criminal to the core.
He had all sorts of justifications, too. "I'm doing a good thing by teaching people not to leave themselves vulnerable to people like me." (Right!) "Anyone who only has locks that can be defeated is giving implicit permission for me to break in." (Uh huh.) "I'm conducting an experiment intended to explore the human psyche." (Sound familiar?) <laughs>
My explanation is that he felt so totally powerless in real life that he exulted in this pseudo power online. I actually think it's a sort of addiction that can take hold of people when they're too young to really understand what they're doing, and then never let them go. Their entire being becomes justified and supported by this "duping pleasure", the joy of fooling or playing tricks on someone else. As much harm as they can do to their victims, they're doing far more harm to themselves without realizing it. They're turning themselves into non-people, destroying their own selfness. Then their desperate need for a self drives them even more into enslavement to the only thing they've found that makes them feel real, the joy they take in harming others. It's very sad and ugly. Imagine the road back to real humanity and freedom for one such as this. It would be a dark road indeed, one requiring enormous courage and perseverance.
If you look closely at these people, I know you'll find they're all deeply, even mortally wounded. Their cruelty to others, however, is only an outer sign of their far worse cruelty to themselves, and every evil act they do burns many times deeper into their own flesh.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I agree with the first part of your post, but I think it's unlikely that any of this behavior actually harms the people doing it more than it harms their victims. There are definitely people in this world who are so totally lacking in human empathy that they only really feel physical pain or the "pain" that comes from being restricted from acting on whatever impulses are driving their behavior.
Also, I believe that abuse/neglect in early childhood (or rather, at the "wrong" developmental periods in childhood) can trigger this kind of mental aberration, I don't think that abuse alone is a sufficient explanation. And I think it makes a lousy excuse.
Ultimately, I predict we will pass more laws against this kind of behavior because: 1) We find the behavior intolerable 2) Laws are basically the way we have in our society to address misbehavior
I don't really think there are more sociopaths out there today than there ever have been. But I think that the anonymity of the internet makes it easier for certain types of these folks to get their "fix" and to escalate their behavior.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
By trolling the Epilepsy Foundation's website, he thinks that he is helping people by showing them their weaknesses. All he is doing is hurting people and justifying his pleasure in it.
An analogy to this is the Jigsaw killer from Saw. The circumstances are of course widely different, but the game is the same. They both think they are helping people, but an objective observer can see that the opposite is obvious.
Not that I want to talk about Saw, but Jason Fortuny (from the article) really seems to think he is helping people, even as he enjoys their pain. I would call him a child, but most normal children are capable of empathy.
I have known several people like this. They are so miserable and insecure that the only way they can get any feeling of self worth is to drag others along into their despair.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
How disturbing.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Email me if you want to hear the story I had posted here. I really don't feel comfortable telling it here.
[ August 05, 2008, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by Achilles (Member # 7741) on :
*agrees with Bob* (as usual)
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:(I will erase this post in about five minutes, but feel free to email me if you have any questions.)
*puzzled* Why'd you post it if you're going to erase it five minutes later? I'm confused... Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I just don;t want it up for long. I am paranoid, but wanted to share a story that is very real, so people can be cautious.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)