Well, it finally happened. I got a driving citation.
I was heading towards an intersection when the light turned yellow. I made the judgement that I didn't have time to stop safely behind the line, that I might get rear-ended, etc. and continued through the intersection. (It is a VERY wide road I was crossing, 3 lanes on each side with a median/turning lane in the middle, I should add.)
I saw the light turn red as I was most of the way through the intersection, but ended up getting pulled over within a block.
It was the officer's opinion that I had enough time to stop at the yellow light, and he issued me my first ever traffic citation of over $250 bucks.
Besides commiseration, I would really appreciate any advice you folks (particularly legal-folks like Dagonee) would have regarding the next steps.
I am thinking about contesting the ticket. While the light did in fact turn red in the intersection, I was honestly concerned for my safety in stopping and didn't choose to go simply to save time or see if I could get away with it. The officer told me that the light cycles a bit longer than most lights, given the width of the crossing, so my reasoning was incorrect.
Do I make an appearance in court on the specified date? Is it sometimes possible to contest in writing? If I do make an appearance or contest in writing, what is the best way to make my case?
Also, an insurance question, for those of you who have received a traffic citation: how badly has this affected your insurance rates, and for how long?
Grrrrrrrrrrr. And it had been such a good day till then.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
You can try contesting it. If the officer shows up, however - you're likely to lose. It's a judgment call on his part to ticket you, and he has an answer for your objection, so if the judge buys his answer, you're out of luck.
But, there is no guarantee he'd show up, so you could win because he doesn't show.
Getting there and throwing yourself on the mercy of the judge is an option - it's your first offense, you did have some reasoning to do what you did, and maybe you'll get some leniency. You have to ask yourself if losing a day's worth of work to drive there and try and contest it is worth it to you.
If you pay it, you will most likely deal with it on your insurance rate for 2-3 years. I think with my husband's ticket we it raised our rate for about $85 for a six-month policy, so if you pay monthly, between $10-$15 a month.
Don't quote me on that, I could be remembering it wrong, but that number sounds familiar to me.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Hmmm. I've always been under the impression that (at least here) a warning can be issued for running a red light if you're more than 1/2 way through (and not speeding) but a citation can only be issued if you're less than halfway through the intersection. Maybe that's a local rule...
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
My understanding was that is was a "break the plane" situation. If you are in the intersection before the light turns red, then you're good. There are probably some regional variations and the officer likely has some discretion.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
My advice would be to show up with a lawyer. Even if he can't get the ticket thrown out, it will be reduced.
It's strange to me, but the very presence of a lawyer causes the judge to reduce your ticket in every case I've ever heard of (and between me and my close friends, we've had over a dozen tickets).
I don't know why judges do it, perhaps to justify the lawyers' fee.
Consider the cost of the lawyer an investment. Between the reduced fine, and the lower insurance price increase, will more than pay for itself in time.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
That was a question when my husband took driver's ed- at what point is it running a red light? The instructor was unable to answer.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I got pulled over for the very first time a few weeks ago, but I just got a warning. It probably helped that my whole family was in the car and that we were in Sunday clothes, coming back from a funeral. I remembered to be completely honest and humble and I think that mollified the cop a little.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
I keep a dead body in my trunk so I can always plausibly claim to be on my way to a funeral. So far, so good.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP: I keep a dead body in my trunk so I can always plausibly claim to be on my way to a funeral. So far, so good.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Bando, Laws on this vary from state to state. In Utah, for example, you are not guilty of running a red light so long as the light was still yellow when you entered the intersection. While laws differ from state to state, I think it is fairly unusual that you would be given a citation if the officer agreed that you were more than half way through the intersection when the light turned red. All things considered, I think it is very likely that you could get the ticket reduced to a warning if you choose to go to court but it really does depend on your state code.
If it were me, I would first check the state law and then I'd check to see what paying the citation would cost me (total citation + increase in insurance). Then you have to weigh that against the cost of taking the time to go to court. How those two compare is really a personal issue that you have to decide.
Many insurance companies will give you one freebee if you have been with them for a long time with no claims so don't presume that your insurance will automatically increase.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
From the document here, on the oregon.gov website:
quote:811.260 (3) Steady circular yellow signal.
A driver facing a steady circular yellow signal light is thereby warned that the related right of way is being terminated and that a red or flashing red light will be shown immediately. A driver facing the light shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, shall stop before entering the marked crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if there is no marked crosswalk, then before entering the intersection. If a driver cannot stop in safety, the driver may drive cautiously through the intersection.
I can't (easily) locate any specific rule about "breaking the plane" or how far you are through the intersection when the light turns red - it appears the law is that you have to stop at a yellow as long as you can do it safely.
Since the police officer apparently thought you could have stopped safely, you're probably out of luck unless he fails to show up in court, or something.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Since the police officer apparently thought you could have stopped safely, you're probably out of luck unless he fails to show up in court, or something.
I wouldn't assume that. This is clearly a judgement call and is recognized as such in the law. If Bando had a bad driving record or was in his teens or early twenties, I'd agree with you. But I think a well established adult with an excellent driving history has a fair chance of getting the citation reduced to a warning. In my admittedly very limited experience, cops frequently don't show up for this kind of hearing.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
"The breaking the plane" thing seems to be Utah law. I looked it up and the law only says that you may not enter an intersection if the light is red.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Since the police officer apparently thought you could have stopped safely, you're probably out of luck unless he fails to show up in court, or something.
I wouldn't assume that. This is clearly a judgement call and is recognized as such in the law. If Bando had a bad driving record or was in his teens or early twenties, I'd agree with you. But I think a well established adult with an excellent driving history has a fair chance of getting the citation reduced to a warning. In my admittedly very limited experience, cops frequently don't show up for this kind of hearing.
It might be worth a try, but from my very limited experience in traffic court, the judge shot down every argument anybody tried to make. My impression is that the judge will tend to trust the officer's judgment more than the driver. Adults and teens, men and women...everybody got shot down. If the time at court is less costly than paying the fine and any potential insurance bump, I think Bando should go ahead and try, though.
Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
In the state of WA you can apply for some deal, wherein the infraction doesn't go on your record (good to keep insurance down), and you promise to pay court fees/gotodriverschool. If you get an infraction within a year of that, then both get put on your record, but it's the closest thing to a 2nd chance you can get AFAIK.
I forget what the term is. Injuction, exemption, waiver, apply for a ____, argh, I hate not remembering stuff.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I'd encourage you to go to court. The odds are not in your favor to get it thrown out, but if you believe you don't deserve the charge, then (in my opinion) it's your responsibility to contest it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Many states allow you to go to traffic school and keep the citation off your record. If you can't get it dismissed, I would definitely suggest that route. You pay a bit more in fees, but it means you don't have to worry about the effect on your insurance. And these days, you can do traffic school online.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
In most states that I lived, just showing up to protest it usually meant the fine would be reduced at the least.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
"MOST" insurance companies don't pull your driving record on a regular basis. State dmvs charge them around $10 for each report, so it would cost them too much. Typically they will pull it if you have an at-fault accident, so they can see if they can raise your rate even more then they already are. Some agents that get bonuses for having clients not file claims, will pull it on their young drivers to try and get them kicked off the insurance. They always pull it when you are applying to a new company.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
Thanks for all the replies everyone.
My job as a teacher entitles me to some pretty spectacular flexibility with paid days off. Two days of emergency leave, one floating holiday, and ten paid sick days.
Of those days, I can freely use the floating holiday, get paid, and appear in court without losing money. The only consequence is that, when I return to work, I will have to fix whatever damage is done by the substitute teacher. Oh, and my paid free day is used up for the year...
So....wish me luck in 8 day's time! Court date is 9/26....
-Bando
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Darn! You have better benefits than we do. We get nine paid sick days, 4 personal days, but only two of those are free. If we use the other two personal days we have to pay the substitute's fee.
The good news is that anything we don't use is accrued, and when you retire, you get paid for every day you didn't use at the average of your last three years' salary. Every one - no limit. Conceivably, you could bank 13 days a year if you have perfect attendance, and in 20 years get paid for 260 days, so it's not bad. They really, really, don't want us to take any time off!
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: Darn! You have better benefits than we do. We get nine paid sick days, 4 personal days, but only two of those are free. If we use the other two personal days we have to pay the substitute's fee.
The good news is that anything we don't use is accrued, and when you retire, you get paid for every day you didn't use at the average of your last three years' salary. Every one - no limit. Conceivably, you could bank 13 days a year if you have perfect attendance, and in 20 years get paid for 260 days, so it's not bad. They really, really, don't want us to take any time off!
Yeah, my county doesn't do it that way unfortunately. So people about to retire tend to get "sick" a lot those last couple of years.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
We had a teacher who was sick almost an entire year once. The next year, she retired.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: "MOST" insurance companies don't pull your driving record on a regular basis. State dmvs charge them around $10 for each report, so it would cost them too much. Typically they will pull it if you have an at-fault accident, so they can see if they can raise your rate even more then they already are. Some agents that get bonuses for having clients not file claims, will pull it on their young drivers to try and get them kicked off the insurance. They always pull it when you are applying to a new company.
In every state I have lived this is not even close to being factual. Almost every state has a legal requirement to report violations to insurance companies, so the companies don't have to "pull" any report at all.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by scholarette: We had a teacher who was sick almost an entire year once. The next year, she retired.
Although cause and effect might be reversed in that case.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Bando --
What speed were you going when you approached the intersection? (this would help determine whether or not you could have "stopped safely" prior to the intersection)
It won't do you any good to say you were "worried about being rear-ended" because that aspect falls totally on the head of the person behind you and whether they were following too closely. I wouldn't bring that up. The "stop safely" pretty much means "I don't think the car could make it to a full stop without ending up in the middle of the intersection by the time it got stopped" or something like that. (Or stopping so violently it would injure people in your car).
Since this sounds like a pretty major intersection (as far as size) do you know if they have cameras at that intersection? If they do, then they will bring those into court if you contest it, most likely.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
As long as you were past the stopping point when the light changed you should win. That doesn't mean you will, but it means you should.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
Farmgirl:
At the time I was heading into the intersection I was still getting up to the speed limit: under it because I was stopped with traffic at the light before going.
There are no cameras on that intersection, though in a nearby city, most busy lights have automatic cameras.
In addition to being worried about being rear-ended, I was worried about being unable to stop behind the line. While the safety of the people in the car wasn't as much of an issue, certainly the items in my car would have been thrown around quite a bit.
Kwea, the light turned yellow before I entered the intersection, but before I had time to stop (IMO, but not in the officer's). It did turn red before I had gone all the way through, but I'm certain I was more than half way through.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
You might have a pretty good case, then, Bando. Just present your points (as you did here), clearly and logically without undue emotion and it will just be an interpretation between you and the officer as to at what point you were. Depending on where he was from the intersection, you might win your argument.
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