Mine is Sam Gamgee. Is that weird? I guess I just think he sacrificed the most and had the least to gain by it. What do you guys an girls think.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
I don't think it's weird at all to love Sam, he played a very important role in the story.
I rather love Faramir, even though he wasn't a major character.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Eöl.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Jarjaromir.
He's in the George Lucas version.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I like Sam, Treebeard, Faramir, and Smeagol.
I simply adore Smeagol/Gollum's conflicted nature. The merest spark of goodness that comes out and then dies. He fascinates me, and while lots of people praise the way Peter Jackson portrayed him (the character as a whole, not Andy Serkis' fantastic acting of it), it felt like a sledgehammer to me - Smeagol is such a subtle character.
I just plain like Treebeard. He's someone I identify with and will probably mature to be somewhat like. I do wish I could be less impulsive.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by String: Mine is Sam Gamgee. Is that weird?
Nah, that isn't weird at all--Sam is a pretty compelling character with a substantial and satisfying story arc. You could make the argument that he is really the protagonist rather than Frodo if you wanted.
My favorite character, if I had to choose one, would probably be Faramir.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Blayne - Eol? Really? Why? He was kind of a jerk, killed Aredhel, and his son was responsible for the destruction of Gondolin. What's to like?
I have a tough time coming up with favorite characters for Tolkien, only because a dozen leap immediately to mind. I like to categorize them:
Favorite Silmarillion human: Turin. Tough choice there between Turin, Tuor, Beren and Hurin. I love Hurin's role at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and his courage, and I love what little we see of Tuor and his role in the defense of Gondolin. I think Beren's story is interesting enough and certainly one of the major oddities of the LOTR universe. But Turin is both a tortured and tragic character. Maybe it's not so much him as his story that I like so much. There's just so much richness to it.
Favorite Silmarillion Elf: Finrod Felagund. This one is tough too, as there are lots of individual great elves like Beleg Strongbow, the other high kings of the Noldor, and the Feanori. But Finrod is my favorite. Honorable, a friend to men, trustworthy to the last, just a fantastic individual. Of all the elves of Middle Earth, he's the one I'd most like to meet.
Favorite LOTR human: I tend to favor peripheral characters in LOTR, and as such, Eomer and Prince Imrahil are some of my more favorites. But in reality some of that is just image. I love the image in my mind if Imrahil marching up to the gates of Minas Tirith with his knights and Men at Arms of Dol Amroth. And I like Eomer's fierce love and equal ferocity in combat, and his loyalty and wisdom. Faramir's purity of spirit is also compelling. He fits in there too. If I had to pick of the major characters, Aragorn would probably be my favorite.
Favorite LOTR non-human: I really like Treebeard and Gandalf, but Sam is probably the most easy to identify with as just a regular guy tagging along to help his best friend, and finds that unnatural courage gets him through a lot of tough spots.
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: You could make the argument that he is really the protagonist rather than Frodo if you wanted.
Not the protagonist, but definitely the hero.
Posted by dantesparadigm (Member # 8756) on :
Gandalf. Before he got clean.
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
Aragorn, because he never lost hope and he was willing to keep fighting until the very end.
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
From LOTR, probably Eowyn, even if she was kind of a minor character, I like her love of her country and her admittedly borderline-suicidal desire to defend it.
From the Silmarilion, Cuthalion, though that's evident from my email address. Posted by swbarnes2 (Member # 10225) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Favorite Silmarillion human: Turin...But Turin is both a tortured and tragic character. Maybe it's not so much him as his story that I like so much. There's just so much richness to it.
Mine too. Tuor gets a lot of stuff handed to him...He has kind of a rough start, but Ulmo leads him to Gondolin, he gets a Elf wife. He sees the fall of Gondolin, but if memory serves, he doesn't die at the hands of an evil doer, but get to sail off into the blue.
Turin gets nothing handed to him. He has a terrible childhood, and an unhappy adolescence. There's a line in one of the versions, about how nothing came easily to him, and he longed for a lot of things he never got. He has to fight for everything, but he manages to do a lot of good (though even some of his good gets turned into bad events). He kills the first dragon practically alone, a feat I don't think any other human ever comes close to achieving, and that few elves come close to meeting.
And he gets a classic Wagnerian tragedy in there, and dies in a tragically heroic fashion.
He's living in a world that is pretty much doomed. There's just no way that the elves and humans and dwarfs can stand up to Morgoth. Their job is to just try. To endure. To strike brave, glorious blows agaisst evil. And Turin Turambar does that.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Blayne - Eol? Really? Why? He was kind of a jerk, killed Aredhel, and his son was responsible for the destruction of Gondolin. What's to like?
I have a tough time coming up with favorite characters for Tolkien, only because a dozen leap immediately to mind. I like to categorize them:
Favorite Silmarillion human: Turin. Tough choice there between Turin, Tuor, Beren and Hurin. I love Hurin's role at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and his courage, and I love what little we see of Tuor and his role in the defense of Gondolin. I think Beren's story is interesting enough and certainly one of the major oddities of the LOTR universe. But Turin is both a tortured and tragic character. Maybe it's not so much him as his story that I like so much. There's just so much richness to it.
Favorite Silmarillion Elf: Finrod Felagund. This one is tough too, as there are lots of individual great elves like Beleg Strongbow, the other high kings of the Noldor, and the Feanori. But Finrod is my favorite. Honorable, a friend to men, trustworthy to the last, just a fantastic individual. Of all the elves of Middle Earth, he's the one I'd most like to meet.
Favorite LOTR human: I tend to favor peripheral characters in LOTR, and as such, Eomer and Prince Imrahil are some of my more favorites. But in reality some of that is just image. I love the image in my mind if Imrahil marching up to the gates of Minas Tirith with his knights and Men at Arms of Dol Amroth. And I like Eomer's fierce love and equal ferocity in combat, and his loyalty and wisdom. Faramir's purity of spirit is also compelling. He fits in there too. If I had to pick of the major characters, Aragorn would probably be my favorite.
Favorite LOTR non-human: I really like Treebeard and Gandalf, but Sam is probably the most easy to identify with as just a regular guy tagging along to help his best friend, and finds that unnatural courage gets him through a lot of tough spots.
Eol and his son were the first true Drow
But I also like Faenor, he crafted the Silmarils and the Seeing Stones, an awesome smith.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon:
quote:Originally posted by String: Mine is Sam Gamgee. Is that weird?
Nah, that isn't weird at all--Sam is a pretty compelling character with a substantial and satisfying story arc. You could make the argument that he is really the protagonist rather than Frodo if you wanted.
My favorite character, if I had to choose one, would probably be Faramir.
I have often made the argument that Sam is, if not the protagonist, then at least the true 'hero' of the novels.
I don't agree that he 'sacrificed the most' as String says, since he ended up just about where he would have in the life of a normal hobbit. Frodo certainly lost a great deal more along the way, and also stood to gain little other than fame and recognition (leaving aside the salvation from being under the power of Sauron that *everyone* in middle earth received).
Of course Aragorn and Gandalf devoted much of their lives to the cause, but they had much to gain. For Gandalf, he was fulfilling the wishes of his superiors among the Lords of the West (the Valar, Maiar, fellow Ishtari, etc.). For Aragorn, while he certainly was concerned with the well-being of the folk of Middle Earth, he stood to gain much: the Kingship of a reunited Gondor/Anor, his marriage to Arwen, the redemption of his line, etc. Sacrifices made? Perhaps, but with pay-off in the end.
Sam strikes me as the true hero of LOTR because he is the ONE person to have born the Ring who remained free of its temptation, even knowing the terrible power he could have unleashed. When he needed to give it back to Frodo, he did, without hesitation and nary a thought of himself; concerned only that Frodo may not be able to bear the burden. Talk about altruism! Not sacrifice, no, but certainly altruism.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Tom Bombadil! (sp?)
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Blayne -
I'm not sure how that follows. Didn't drow live in caves? Eol was a forest dweller. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Feanor didn't create the Seeing Stones. The Palantiri were gifts from the Valar to Numenor.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
wikipedia has Faenor as having forged both the Elessar and the Palantiri.
The Drow of Dungeons and Dragons as "reinvented" by Gary Gygax live in the Underdark (or in the case of certain exiles also in forests) however his Drow have their roots in Eol and his son.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Gandalf is a beast. So, I'm going to go ahead and say he is my favorite.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Feanor didn't create the Seeing Stones. The Palantiri were gifts from the Valar to Numenor.
I'm fairly certain that it says somewhere that Feanor created them. Don't remember exactly where, though.
Posted by Xann. (Member # 11482) on :
I have no idea his name, but the guy who shot the dragon in The Hobbit. He had excellent vision or something, i just remember liking him alot, even if i felt he was a kind of dues ex machina.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: wikipedia has Faenor as having forged both the Elessar and the Palantiri.
The Drow of Dungeons and Dragons as "reinvented" by Gary Gygax live in the Underdark (or in the case of certain exiles also in forests) however his Drow have their roots in Eol and his son.
I'll have to look up the Palantiri then, as I don't ever remember it being said that they were created by Feanor. The Elessar has multiple origins, only one of which is sourced to Feanor, and I'm not even sure which book that's in. The Unfinished Tales have it being made by a jewel smith of great skill in Gondolin, I can't remember his name.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xann.: I have no idea his name, but the guy who shot the dragon in The Hobbit. He had excellent vision or something, i just remember liking him alot, even if i felt he was a kind of dues ex machina.
That's Bard. I think he was a far off descendent of Girion, which means he's both of noble blood and probably of a slightly higher race of men, but I can't remember what, if anything, was ever written about the origins of Dale. I know his descendents, the Bardings, were crucial in the War of the Ring and the defense of Lonely Mountain against the forces of Dol Guldur.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
In the last chapter of part 1 of the Two Towers, Gandalf says, "The Noldor made [the palantiri]. Feanor himself, maybe, wrought them in days so long ago that the time cannot be measured in years."
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Hm, I went and did a little checking, and it looks like Feanor might have known how to make them, but for sure more than one person did, though it was a very small group. So whether or not the Seven that were gifted to Amandil by the Noldor (not the Valar, my bad) were made by Feanor or not is unknown.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
That was my recollection, but this was the only accessible book I had. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Good recollection! It's been a year or two since I've read a lot of this stuff and I get caught up on some of the details, especially on the stuff that has like six versions to it because Tolkien kept changing his mind.
Luckily I have all the Histories of Middle Earth (except one!) to browse through when I need an obscure factoid of absolutely no real world value. Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
HEY! It has TOTAL real world value. to me anyways.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Lyrhawn they do go on about the origins of Dale in the hobbit (I think).
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Faramir. I just find his whole subplot with his father so compelling. (yes, I know it mostly appears in the appendices, but still - it's part of the story for me).
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I think Eowyn was my favorite human character. My favorite character of all was probably Frodo. I love that he was an elf-friend. When he said "Elen síla lumenn' omentielvo" (a star shines on the hour of our meeting) to the first elves they met, nor far outside of Hobbiton, it was such a great moment.
I totally agree that Sam was the real hero of the LoTR. I didn't see that until I'd read it 10 times or so, but he truly was. What a jewel of a hobbit was Sam!
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Everything about LOTR for me is coloured by the movies, except for Pippin. Book-Pippin was undersold by Movie-Pippin, even in ROTK.
quote:I do wish I could be less impulsive.
I wish I could be more impulsive!
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
BEORN.
End-o discussion.
Posted by Hank (Member # 8916) on :
It's interesting, because whenever we talk about film adaptations, I say that what I liked about LOTR was that the movie was close enough to the world of the books, but different enough in the story that it didn't overrule my own imagined versions of the characters. The main difference being that I thought the heroes of the movie were Aragorn and Frodo, but the heroes of the book were Gandalf and Sam.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by BandoCommando: Sam strikes me as the true hero of LOTR because he is the ONE person to have born the Ring who remained free of its temptation, even knowing the terrible power he could have unleashed. When he needed to give it back to Frodo, he did, without hesitation and nary a thought of himself; concerned only that Frodo may not be able to bear the burden. Talk about altruism! Not sacrifice, no, but certainly altruism.
I was going to say this. Of all the people who possessed the ring, Sam is the only one who came to his own decision, after the typical delusions of ganduer, that he didn't want it. (Yes, I know Bilbo did give up the ring, but he had to be coerced.) Sam is the most noble character in the story, and he doesn't even know it - it's just his nature. He never claimed any credit for himself, and it never occured to him that he deserved any.
The passage describing Sam carrying Frodo always moved me to tears.
Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
Hmmm...Earendil or Luthien. Hmmm....
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sean Monahan:
quote:Originally posted by BandoCommando: Sam strikes me as the true hero of LOTR because he is the ONE person to have born the Ring who remained free of its temptation, even knowing the terrible power he could have unleashed. When he needed to give it back to Frodo, he did, without hesitation and nary a thought of himself; concerned only that Frodo may not be able to bear the burden. Talk about altruism! Not sacrifice, no, but certainly altruism.
I was going to say this. Of all the people who possessed the ring, Sam is the only one who came to his own decision, after the typical delusions of ganduer, that he didn't want it. (Yes, I know Bilbo did give up the ring, but he had to be coerced.) Sam is the most noble character in the story, and he doesn't even know it - it's just his nature. He never claimed any credit for himself, and it never occured to him that he deserved any.
The passage describing Sam carrying Frodo always moved me to tears.
Yes...something along the lines of, "I may not be able to carry it, but at least I can carry you!"
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
I just finished listening to Lord of the Rings on audio tape, and its given me a whole new appreciation of some of the minor characters, and a whole new appreciation of the arguments that Tolkien is not a great writer.
Tom Bombadil is not the odd out of place thing I thought he was. Prince Imrahil was overlooked when I read it, every time. Farmer Cotton was I read as a gruff old crank, not a heroic wise old farmer.
I highly suggest the tapes or cd's. While listening I couldn't skip the more boring parts, and what I thought were boring characters.
I would like to say favorites not mentioned...
The Gaffer. Cotton and Merry.
The original prelude to the book has part of Merry's "On herb lore". It was only recently that I realized that Merry wrote that book in honor of the talk he never had with Theoden.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Sam is my favorite character.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
Gollum/Smeagol.
Best. Character. Ever.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: I just finished listening to Lord of the Rings on audio tape, and its given me a whole new appreciation of some of the minor characters, and a whole new appreciation of the arguments that Tolkien is not a great writer.
Tom Bombadil is not the odd out of place thing I thought he was. Prince Imrahil was overlooked when I read it, every time. Farmer Cotton was I read as a gruff old crank, not a heroic wise old farmer.
I highly suggest the tapes or cd's. While listening I couldn't skip the more boring parts, and what I thought were boring characters.
I would like to say favorites not mentioned...
The Gaffer. Cotton and Merry.
The original prelude to the book has part of Merry's "On herb lore". It was only recently that I realized that Merry wrote that book in honor of the talk he never had with Theoden.
Maybe it's just the version I just got, but the WHOLE time on the audio track, the producers put a looped recording of the "Shire/Hobbit" music from the FOTR movie. It's really out of place to hear that skippy, upbeat-oriented music while Frodo is being attacked by the Nazgul on top of Weathertop...
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Gollum. Tolkien understood his nature and conflicts perfectly, and his final scene is spine-tingling (ruined in the movie, IMO). All his scenes with Frodo and Sam are compelling.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Beorn is a great character. Nice one, Launchy.
Wow, was Tolkien great at characters or what? I'm amazed at the list that appears just in this thread. So many good ones.
I don't usually have favorites, but I really liked Smeagol's story, and I enjoyed the Ents. Hobbitwise Sam was indeed the least annoying character. Gandalf was mysterious and terrible, I loved him.
Posted by Trent Destian (Member # 11653) on :
I would like to enter Minas Tirth as a character.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Trent Destian: I would like to enter Minas Tirth as a character.
Which character would you like to be when you go in?
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I love that when I feel like the dorkiest person alive, all I have to do is visit Hatrack. This is a compliment, believe it or not.
I am glad I'm not the only Smeagol fan! Also, I think what people have said about Sam is spot-on. I've often argued that he's the real hero of the series. He's someone I think I would like knowing in real life.
Posted by Trent Destian (Member # 11653) on :
Rephrase then: I would like to submit Minas Tirth as a character.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Frodo. Although when I was younger I really liked Glorfindel. I don't know why, he really only appears once or twice.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I was always a fan of Gimli, though my second would be Beorn. Third and forth would be Merry, then Pippen.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by String: Mine is Sam Gamgee. Is that weird? I guess I just think he sacrificed the most and had the least to gain by it. What do you guys an girls think.
Why does that make him your favorite character?
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I think my favorite moment is when Merry and Pippen are sitting and eating on the ruins of Isengard and the Aragorn, Gandalf, Legolas, and Gimli ride up with the Eorlingas after the battle of Helm's Gate, and Merry addresses King Theoden and the company. "My companion, who alas is overcome with weariness (here he gives Pippen a dig with his toe)..." That was such a wonderful joyful moment. Do you remember?
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
It's so difficult . . .
Moviewise (director's cut) -- Boromir. And Eowyn. (Can I have two?) Closely followed by the stunning performance for Smeagol/Gollum (in the theater cut).
Bookwise -- oh man . . . impossible to choose! Which book . . . *sigh* . . . Now I'll have to ponder . . .
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
As I said the greatest character EVER!
Tom Bombadil!
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
I also am a Gimli fan, FlyingCow.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shan: It's so difficult . . .
Moviewise (director's cut) -- Boromir. And Eowyn. (Can I have two?) Closely followed by the stunning performance for Smeagol/Gollum (in the theater cut).
Bookwise -- oh man . . . impossible to choose! Which book . . . *sigh* . . . Now I'll have to ponder . . .
Eowyn is fantastic in the books, but awful in the movies. I didn't like what PJ did with her at all.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I liked her in the books, but I also liked her in the movies. What did you think he got wrong about her?
In the books I was also VERY partial to Faramir. I strongly disliked what PJ did to him in the second movie, although I thought his charge was one of the most moving moments in the entire series.
I liked Aragorn as well, and liked how Tolkien let us see that he was still Strider under all of the kingly trappings at the end of ROTK as well.
But I really liked Sting best of all. Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: In the books I was also VERY partial to Faramir. I strongly disliked what PJ did to him in the second movie, although I thought his charge was one of the most moving moments in the entire series.
What? Locked his thread?
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: I highly suggest the tapes or cd's.
If you are referring to the Robert Inglis version, then I second this recommendation. My only complaint about it is that he actually sings all the songs. And there are a lot of songs. I wish he hadn't done that.
EDIT: I also have an (abridged) audio version produced by The Mind's Eye for NPR. Avoid this one like the plague.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
I loved the fact that he sings all the songs. What else should he have done with them? Admittedly the songs can slow down the 'action', but they're part of the Middle Earth landscape and they shouldn't be ignored.
The only thing that disappointed me about the Inglis cds was the fact that he didn't do most of the appendices. I really wanted to hear him read this from Appendix F (one of my absolute all-time favourite passages from LotR):
"They were a race high and beautiful, the older Children of the world, and among them the Eldar were as kings, who are now gone: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin ..." Appendix F: Part II, "On Translation,"
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
So, he performed an appendectomy on Tolkien?
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cashew: I loved the fact that he sings all the songs. What else should he have done with them? Admittedly the songs can slow down the 'action', but they're part of the Middle Earth landscape and they shouldn't be ignored.
The only thing that disappointed me about the Inglis cds was the fact that he didn't do most of the appendices. I really wanted to hear him read this from Appendix F (one of my absolute all-time favourite passages from LotR):
"They were a race high and beautiful, the older Children of the world, and among them the Eldar were as kings, who are now gone: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin ..." Appendix F: Part II, "On Translation,"
If you liked the songs, I'd really, really recommend looking into the CDs by a group called the Tolkien Ensemble. Over the course of around 4 cds they put most of the songs and poems of Lord of the Rings to actual music. For the most part, they were very well done. In particular, I liked The Song of Beren and Luthien, The Old Walking Song(they did all 3 versions from the books), and some of the less serious songs such as Sam's Rhyme of the Troll, the Tom Bombadil Songs, etc. Really, I could go on just listing the ones that I really liked, but I'd really recommend tracking these down and giving them a listen.
Posted by String (Member # 6435) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by String: Mine is Sam Gamgee. Is that weird? I guess I just think he sacrificed the most and had the least to gain by it. What do you guys an girls think.
Why does that make him your favorite character?
That is a really good question, Lisa. I guess I really don't know. Um... I've always liked the more altruistic heroes as opposed to the more "realistic" gritty variety. But LoTR has a plethora of truly heroic characters to choose from. I guess I like Sam because his only reward for his efforts were to be able too live out the same peaceful life he would have been able to if someone else had shouldered his responsibilities for him. And I think he was fine with it.
O.K. I got it. It's because his real value in the story is expression of platonic love. He was purely involved because of his strong friendship and devotion to Frodo, and it saw him through all of his trials.
I don't think that bonds of friendship like that are represented enough in modern story telling. I remember some of my friends saying that Sam and Frodo's relationship was "a little fagy" (their words, not mine) after watching The Return of the King, and thinking: Man, is it so hard for people to see the deep love that real friendship entails represented on screen? Don't they have anyone that they are that close too, or is their life devoid of a true, down to the last friendship like that.
So, after making everyone read through my entire thought process (sorry ) , I think I can sum it up like this: I like Sam because after all is said and done, he is just a steadfast friend, and I really enjoyed how Tolkien showed how admirable a trait that being a friend really is.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: So, he performed an appendectomy on Tolkien?
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
For favorite character I'm gonna go with Elwe/Thingol, and not just because he got the best girl, though that's a big part of it. He also built arguably the strongest and oldest lasting kingdom in Beleriand, goverened fairly, dealt with the semi-guiltless Noldor when they returned, accepted some humans and generally kicked a lot of butt. His death and the end of Menegroth and Doriath were the saddest parts of the Silmarillian to me.
Beorn comes next because he's a shape shifter and had animal servers. That's just cool.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Yeah, but like so many of the other kingdoms of Beleriand, it was his own fault that Doriath fell.
At least for other kingdoms, they fell out of mistakes in kindness, like the building of the bridge for Nargothrond that led to its invasion. It was built so they could oppose Morgoth. Or in the case of Turgon. He took in his sister's son, and he ended up giving away the location of the city to Morgoth. Those people failed because of trust in others, whereas Thingol failed because he was greedy (wanted a Silmaril) and kind of a jerk (tried to get his daughter's suitor killed by giving him an impossible task).
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
To reiterate my point TOM BOMBADIL!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
T:man, have you read that some people think Tom Bombadil is Manwe or even an incarnation of Eru Illuvatar himself? It's quite interesting speculation, because Tom doesn't really fit in anywhere. He's eldest, but who is he? Is he a Maia? A Vala? One of the Ainur? The whole of Arda has a part in the creation story, everyone came from somewhere except Tom.
I think I understand the literary reason for him. He was an invented character of whom Tolkien was fond, he had stories and songs quite apart from the LotR story, and so he just got included. Arda is a place of magic and mystery, where there are beings and things we don't fully understand. It's part of what makes life there so wondrous. Remember the stone giants from The Hobbit? They don't really fit in anywhere either, and seem to have disappeared by LotR time. Maybe they were Trolls of some kind? They're another anomaly.
But it's quite arguable to my mind that he could be Eru Illuvatar. Why bring an entire universe into being and not even experience it from the inside? When I'm a god I'm totally going to incarnate in my universe. Aren't you?
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Argh, I barely remember half the characters being mentioned...
*goes of to grab his copy of the Silmarillion*
*amazed he spelled it right*
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
I always thought he was the embodiment of Middle Earth, or the embodiment of nature. I seem to remember that he could not survive against Sauron because Sauron could overpower the earth. But what do I know.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by T:man: I always thought he was the embodiment of Middle Earth, or the embodiment of nature. I seem to remember that he could not survive against Sauron because Sauron could overpower the earth. But what do I know.
I have read this as one possible theory.
I have also read a theory that Bombadil is an avatar of the reader.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
T:man, I remember when Elrond said that at the council, but it sounded like speculation. Elrond didn't really have any idea, and he was one of the Firstborn who dwelt with the Valar for numberless years. So it seems like if anyone would know, he would. I think they concluded that they didn't really know if he had the power to stop Sauron or not, but that he wasn't part of their story, or something, didn't they? He's not part of the story of the ring.
That fits with an embodiment Middle Earth, or of nature. I'm still learning toward Eru, though. Like our God he doesn't step in and fix everything up for us. He's not inserting himself into our stories all the time. He just enjoys life a lot, enjoys the beauty of everything, and he helps us out a bit from time to time.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think he's a Maia.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Lyrhawn, I agree with you to a point. The impression I got from the Sil was that Thingol wanted the Simaril at least as much because it wouldn't be a prize for his kin-slayers as for his own greed.
And I know it sucked what he did to Turin, and if the question is which Tolkein character do you think was most without fault I would have chose Bombadil*, Gandalf or Sam. But I sympathise with the reasons behind his struggle and feel like the rest of what he'd accomplished outweighs that. I'm not so terribly impressed by Thurin anyway. He was strong, determined, loyal and all that, but he really lacked in inter-personal contact and social resolution. Basically he came of as kind of a jerk to me.
*I've always wondered why none of the Hobbits used the song he'd taught them to call for his aid during any of the trouble they got in to. He'd said it'd work anywhere in Middle Earth, right? Also, I believe that he is Ulmo, or at least Osse.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Quoting Tatiana: "Elrond didn't really have any idea, and he was one of the Firstborn who dwelt with the Valar for numberless years."
I'm certain Elrond had never dwelt with the Valar before finally leaving Middle Earth with Gandalf, Frodo and co. He was born in Beleriand, son of Earendil and his Eldar wife (can't remember her name).
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cashew: I'm certain Elrond had never dwelt with the Valar before finally leaving Middle Earth with Gandalf, Frodo and co. He was born in Beleriand, son of Earendil and his Eldar wife (can't remember her name).
I think it says in the Sil that he never and his brother never even set foot on the shore when they traveled with their father.
As for Bombadil, my understanding is that he's the closest thing Tolkien had to an embodied metaphor in Lord of the Rings. As I understand it, Bombadil was supposed to embody a philosophy and mindset that didn't really fit into the LOTR story, but was still considered important and worthy of inclusion by Tolkien.
I don't think there is enough information to say where exactly he fits in the whole scheme of Tolkien's universe, although if I had to pick something I'd say either Eru or an embodyment of Nature or Arda. I tend towards the latter, because of the way he limited himself to a certain geography, but I definitely don't think he fits in with any of the descriptions of the Valar.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:And I know it sucked what he did to Turin, and if the question is which Tolkein character do you think was most without fault I would have chose Bombadil*, Gandalf or Sam. But I sympathise with the reasons behind his struggle and feel like the rest of what he'd accomplished outweighs that. I'm not so terribly impressed by Thurin anyway. He was strong, determined, loyal and all that, but he really lacked in inter-personal contact and social resolution. Basically he came of as kind of a jerk to me.
Actually I don't really mind what he did to Turin. He was actually kind of magnanimous considering Turin killed Beleg, and I think as a father or at least father figure, he was quite admirable in his protection of Luthien (destructive though it was) and his treatment of Turin. I was referring to what he did to Beren.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Cashew, after I typed that I stopped and tried to remember if it was true or if I just imagined that such a powerful lord among the elves must have been of the people of the light. But then I realized that if I were wrong, someone would surely correct me so I let it stand. Thanks for the correction.
I remember that Earendil was his father, and that Earendil sailed to the undying lands with the silmaril on his bow, which is the only way he could get there anymore since the fall of Numenor when the world was bent. And that afterward his ship was set in the heavens, and the silmaril is the planet Venus now.
It still seems odd to me that Elrond never was there, though I see that you're right. Galadriel was over there for a long time, of course. Does that mean Elrond is not really her peer? Of all the elves in Middle Earth during the time of the War of the Ring at the end of the third age, which had lived in the undying lands? Glorfindel? Galadriel? Who else?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by String:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by String: Mine is Sam Gamgee. Is that weird? I guess I just think he sacrificed the most and had the least to gain by it. What do you guys an girls think.
Why does that make him your favorite character?
That is a really good question, Lisa. I guess I really don't know. Um... I've always liked the more altruistic heroes as opposed to the more "realistic" gritty variety. But LoTR has a plethora of truly heroic characters to choose from. I guess I like Sam because his only reward for his efforts were to be able too live out the same peaceful life he would have been able to if someone else had shouldered his responsibilities for him. And I think he was fine with it.
O.K. I got it. It's because his real value in the story is expression of platonic love. He was purely involved because of his strong friendship and devotion to Frodo, and it saw him through all of his trials.
I don't think that bonds of friendship like that are represented enough in modern story telling. I remember some of my friends saying that Sam and Frodo's relationship was "a little fagy" (their words, not mine) after watching The Return of the King, and thinking: Man, is it so hard for people to see the deep love that real friendship entails represented on screen? Don't they have anyone that they are that close too, or is their life devoid of a true, down to the last friendship like that.
So, after making everyone read through my entire thought process (sorry ) , I think I can sum it up like this: I like Sam because after all is said and done, he is just a steadfast friend, and I really enjoyed how Tolkien showed how admirable a trait that being a friend really is.
Thanks. That, I can understand.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I LOVE the books, really like the movies, and have several friends who are as close as family.....
But even I turned to my wife at the end of ROTK and started singing "Let's Get It On".
Although I was worried about a foursome, not just Frodo and Sam. Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I remember that Earendil was his father, and that Earendil sailed to the undying lands with the silmaril on his bow, which is the only way he could get there anymore since the fall of Numenor when the world was bent. And that afterward his ship was set in the heavens, and the silmaril is the planet Venus now.
Earendil's sailing to Valinor happened before Numenor was founded. Earendil's sailed to plead for the Valar to assist in defeating Morgoth. After that battle, in which Beleriand was pretty much destroyed, the humans who participated were rewarded with the island of Numenor.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Oh, that's right, Earendil was human. That's why he needed the silmaril to get to Valinor. Wow, I'm forgetting my Tolkien lore. That's scary.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Of all the elves in Middle Earth during the time of the War of the Ring at the end of the third age, which had lived in the undying lands? Glorfindel? Galadriel? Who else?
Galadriel and Cirdan are the only two who come to mind. Glorfindel had never been to Valinor. To the best of my knowledge, that's the second Glorfindel. The first one died fighting Gothmog during the fall of Gondolin, which protected the exodus of Tuor and Idril from the city.
I'm sure there are others, just none that I can think of that were named.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: To the best of my knowledge, that's the second Glorfindel.
Ooo, that's an ugly can of worms you're toying with. Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: Oh, that's right, Earendil was human. That's why he needed the silmaril to get to Valinor. Wow, I'm forgetting my Tolkien lore. That's scary.
Well, partly human. He's the son of Tuor and Idril. If I remember correctly, one of the Valar's rules was that they would only intercede in the war if someone representing both elves and men came to ask for help. Earendil, being of both races, fit the bill.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sean Monahan:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: To the best of my knowledge, that's the second Glorfindel.
Ooo, that's an ugly can of worms you're toying with.
Yeah I know. I've read the Histories of Middle Earth and I know JRR intended for them both to be the same person. But come on, he was reincarnated after lingering in the Halls of Mandos and then sent back in the Second Age? I think that's just one of a couple possibilities, but the guy DIED fighting Gothmog. As far as I'm concerned, Glorfindel II is the one in Rivendell. JRR even said that if he'd caught it sooner, he would have changed the name. I know there are a few people that break the rules in Middle Earth, but the evidence behind Glorfindel being one of them is thin, and you really have to dig for it, and I think you really have to want it to believe it.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:Originally posted by Sean Monahan:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: To the best of my knowledge, that's the second Glorfindel.
Ooo, that's an ugly can of worms you're toying with.
Yeah I know. I've read the Histories of Middle Earth and I know JRR intended for them both to be the same person. But come on, he was reincarnated after lingering in the Halls of Mandos and then sent back in the Second Age? I think that's just one of a couple possibilities, but the guy DIED fighting Gothmog. As far as I'm concerned, Glorfindel II is the one in Rivendell. JRR even said that if he'd caught it sooner, he would have changed the name. I know there are a few people that break the rules in Middle Earth, but the evidence behind Glorfindel being one of them is thin, and you really have to dig for it, and I think you really have to want it to believe it.
I tend to take the same view. Is it really that terrible that a name repeated once within a span of a couple thousand years? I never entirely understood the need to try and shoehorn him in as the same person.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
So far as I can tell, among elves he is the ONLY repeat, which I think is part of why Tolkien insisted that he be counted as the same person. Apparently it was part of the naming convention of elves, that each elf only have one name and it never be repeated. I think that's why after he realized he'd already named someone Glorfindel, and it's not hard to imagine him forgetting since he was such an organizational scatterbrain, he slipped in a couple extra pieces of information, especially considering his treatment of Glorfindel's reincarnation doesn't really jive with what else has been written about what happens to elves when they reach the Halls of Mandos.
I think Glorfindel may have been the original fantasy retcon.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Immortal people don't repeat names. It just gets too confusing down the centuries.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Oooo...
Besides the Silver Tree of Light, Telperion, who isn't really a character per say... I would have to go with Manwe, the Elder King of the Valar. Never gave up on the mortal world.
Second fave would be... mmmm... Fingolfin, High King of the Elves.
Third fave would be Denethor, the much misunderstood Ruling Steward of the Gondorian Empire.
Posted by Pegasus (Member # 10464) on :
quote:Originally posted by String: ...I guess I like Sam because his only reward for his efforts were to be able too live out the same peaceful life he would have been able to if someone else had shouldered his responsibilities for him. And I think he was fine with it.
Also you have to consider that he may not have had the opportunity to live out his life peacefully if someone else had gone (and failed to sufficiently help Frodo).
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Cirdan was a Teleri. None of them who went to Valinor came back to Middle Earth. Cirdan was the lord of those who were on their way to Valinor but were persuaded by Osse to remain in Middle Earth.
Galadriel is explicitly named (in the Silmarillion - her story was being revised when Tolkien died) as the only Noldor leader who had lived in Valinor to not return after the downfall of Morgoth. It's not explicit that none of the other Noldor who remained had been born after the Noldor returned to Middle Earth, but I can't think of another named one.
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
) , I think I can sum it up like this: I like Sam because after all is said and done, he is just a steadfast friend, and I really enjoyed how Tolkien showed how admirable a trait that being a friend really is. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)