Originally posted by Traceria:
quote:Until someone mistypes LAL as LOL.
Originally posted by Achilles:
TH and LAL for short?
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
quote:That's the experience I'm having with 24 this year - I've always watched it on DVD, but am watching week-by-week this year. It's too early to say for sure, but so far my feeling is that the commercial breaks every 7 minutes really kill the intensity for me.
Originally posted by Uprooted:
I watched the first 3 seasons on DVD; last year was the first time I watched it week-by-week. I much preferred the DVD experience, but I don't think I can wait that long to find out what happens, so I guess I'll be watching with the rest of you next week.
quote:I think I was sort of along the right lines. I think because of how time is working on the show, in the timeline of the Island, it knows that the Losties all end up there in the future and so it works to bring them together, and bring them to itself in order to complete the time line. It's recursive, and in a sense sidesteps(or cops out) on actually having to answer the question by saying, "all those connections exist, and they are all brought to the Island, because that's the way it has to be, because if they don't come to the Island, then they can never be hopping in time around the Island, and exist in the past on the Island."
So here's the thought that came to me. What if the reason all the characters have these really unlikely connections in their past, is because the Island has actually created all these connections. Which is not to say the past events didn't happen, but in a weird twist on cause and effect and the nature of time and whether it can be changed, these people all crash here and the island created these intertwining pasts for whatever reason.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:OK. I found the jewelry store woman, and they're definitely different. They have similar eyes and expressions, though.
Originally posted by Strider:
oh, here's who you're thinking of:
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Isabel
quote:Sun mentioned that it was a "baby-picture" and that she'd like for Aaron and her daughter to meet and play together.
Originally posted by EmpSquared:
So... is Sun's baby still an infant a few years in the future, or was it just an old picture?
quote:Yeah, the script quality did seem down a notch. But Season 4's premier episode also felt a bit campy, and that turned out to be my favorite season so far, so I'll give them a while to redeem themselves.
Originally posted by Scott R:
I haven't watched the whole episode yet, but I was struck by how clunky the dialog was.
"We're either in the past...or the future."
"When am I?"
Also, does Sawyer not look nearly as fit as he did last season?
quote:I would say that Michael is toast, and Jin is probably alive. I think that the boat blew up while Michael was right there with the explosives. I don't even if know if Michael will show up as a ghost after Harold Perrineau expressed his dissatisfaction over being killed, but Ana Lucia showed up again, so anything's possible.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
To be fair, we should say that Michael and Jin were on the freighter when it exploded and are presumed dead. There has been no confirmation of their deaths.
Given that this is lost, I'm at least half expecting them to show up alive on the island or maybe they'll show up on the island even though they are dead.
quote:I think having murdered two women in cold blood would be part of his guilt.
Michael couldn't deal with the guilt of leaving his friends...
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
) The guy who at first pretended to have a beard.
quote:ahh...very true. I thought we were only talking about the scene surrounding Michael's death, that's where Raymond must've gotten confused.
Mr. Friendly did come and visit Michael in New York. He recruited him into working for Ben.
quote:I think that the six will return fairly early in the season. They do have 70 hours to return to the island. That's roughly 1 1/2 to 2 episodes. It's the "what happens next" part that will be the main theme. The six could make it too the island and spend the entire season trying to return to those who were left. Then they would be trying to reach other though time. When that happens, someone will have to stop the Island's time hops.
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
At first I assumed this season would pick up with people getting back to the island and then filling in the gaps with flashbacks. Now I'm suspecting that returning to the island will actually happen at the end, although I'm unclear on how they'll drag it out that long. (So far the "theme" of each season is usually established in the first episode, and I'm not seeing anything other than people trying to get back to each other)
I'm a little wary of making time travel the key ingredient of the story. Time travel has to be done extremely well or it just becomes silly. The Terminator show works because time travel isn't relevant most the time. The people came back in time, now they're here and that's that.
I'm not sure I have faith in the Lost crew to pull a solid TT story off. Let's cross our fingers. (I suspect that they WILL attempt to do roughly what Strider's suggesting, whether they succeed or not)
quote:I feel like they're answering so much this season. We finally know why Whidmore wants to get to the Island so badly. Because he was there! He was a native(whatever that ends up being). It'll be interesting to see what events lead up to him having to leave and splitting with the group.
The other thing that I was really interested in was Locke and Richard's communication, and the compass. So we all know where the compass is from. Here's my question. Does Locke end up running into Richard at some point in the past(for Richard(though given Richard's interesting relationship with time I don't know if you can really say that about him)) and use the compass to prove to Richard that what he tells him is the truth? Or should I say, is that its only purpose, or does it also tie in even more(in a recursive way) to why Richard wants Locke to come to the Island so badly? Does Locke run into Richard before Locke is even born? Is that why Richard keeps visiting Locke to see if he's ready to come to the Island? Because he KNOWS he eventually will? And is that why the compass "already belongs" to Locke when he's a child? Because Locke is actually the one who gives it to Richard?
quote:I just forgot who told Michael he could go. I just remembered the words.
Originally posted by Strider:
quote:ahh...very true. I thought we were only talking about the scene surrounding Michael's death, that's where Raymond must've gotten confused.
Mr. Friendly did come and visit Michael in New York. He recruited him into working for Ben.
quote:Where do you get that math? An episode is 45 minutes long in "real time" and in "TV time" you can't even begin to measure them because of all these time travel shenanigans. How much time "elapsed" in this episode? With all the crazy stuff going on and off the island, I think there's plenty material to have everyone reunited in about 20 episodes.
I think that the six will return fairly early in the season. They do have 70 hours to return to the island. That's roughly 1 1/2 to 2 episodes.
quote:Oh, ick. That is a sickening thought.
Originally posted by Strider:
But I wonder what would happen to their son if that theory turns out to be correct? I had the sickening thought that their son Charlie could be Charles Whidmore, I hope not, I don't think they'd do that.
quote:That possibility completely bypassed me. Huh. Could be! We (boyfriend and I) thought it was because of a resemblance between that girl and the girl in the bed back in Oxford. (We probably thought that simply because he thought the girl with the gun was the same as in the picture Desmond found in the closed-up room, though I didn't at the time.)
Originally posted by Lisa:
Was the woman holding the gun on Daniel his mother?
quote:sometimes I feel like my posts are too long and no one reads them.
Originally posted by Lisa:
Was the woman holding the gun on Daniel his mother?
quote:you may not be the only one Uprooted, but I completely disagree(not about Jack, Kate, and Hurley). I'm loving every bit of this season so far.
Am I the only one whose head is starting to asplode?
quote:Oh man...i really do hope that's not true. i thought the idea was sort of neat. but to have Penny give birth to her own father, who gives birth to her...etc...may just be a bit too much for me.
Originally posted by theCrowsWife:
By the way, Strider, my husband really likes your Little Charlie == Charles Whidmore thought.
--Mel
quote:Started to go off on that thread last night, too, but you've definitely thought more about the possibilities.
Originally posted by Strider:
Whidmore is funding faraday's work. Ben and Whidmore are enemies in this game they're playing. Ben answers to Faraday's mom.
Does Whidmore answer to Faraday's mom too? Is Faraday's mom against Whidmore too? Does she know Whidmore is funding her son? Does Faraday know Whidmore's connection to all this or he clueless about the ins and outs of his benefactor?
Basically, is Whidmore funding Faraday under the nose of his mother because of his own desire to get back to the Island? Or is this all still part of this "game" that's being played? Maybe game isn't the best words, but there's obviously agreed upon rules which Whidmore has now broken. Is Whidmore funding Faraday because he knows that Faraday needs to end up on the Island? Or is the reason that Faraday's mom doesn't stop Whidmore from funding her son because she knows Faraday needs to go to the Island? Is the game, while a struggle between men for control of the Island, still based around the fundamental principle of protecting the Island at all costs?
Just some random thoughts.
quote:There's definitely a disconnect at the moment when it comes how some of their actions actually do keep the Island safe. Obviously, we don't know why getting back the 6 will save the people on it (presuming saving people on the Island is in any way equal to protecting it), yet Ben's determined. Lots of questions that still need answers...
Originally posted by Strider:
well, I personally think that Jacob IS the Island, or at least some essence of it. So seeking managements approval IS demonstrating loyalty to the Island. It's doing what's in the best interest for the safety of the Island.
quote:Except that somehow Desmond is exempt from the rules, from what Faraday said and believes. Wouldn't be surprised if he does some Marty McFly stuff.
We talked about this last season, but it's the Time Traveler's Wife philosophy of time travel as opposed to the Back to the Future philosophy.
quote:YES ALL YOUR FAULT!
Originally posted by Traceria:
Sorry...I think T:man appearing is partly my fault. I commented on his post. *sheepish grin*
quote:That's what I thought too - but then wouldn't the explosion of the hatch have set off the nuclear bomb?
I thought the bomb was what was hinding under the hatch and transmitting the electromagnetic waves. Wasn't there a bunch of stuff in the first two seasons about something being buried in lead and concrete under the hatch station?
quote:It was touching.
Both Havah and I teared up when we realized that Desmond had named him after Charlie. I think that's enough significance.
quote:I highly doubt that. Charlie seems to have a well established family.
I was thinking, based purelt on his blonde hair and name, do you think the young Chalie we met this episode might, though time-traveling mishaps, actually be the rock-star Charlie?
quote:There's a thought! That would put an additional spin on his question for Desmond about why he (Desmond) would think he (Whidmore) would know where Faraday's mother is.
Originally posted by Mama Squirrel:
Could Whidmore be Faraday's father? The woman holding the gun on Faraday looks to be about the same age as Whidmore on the island.
quote:The future Losties wouldn't ask so many questions about who they're watching -- they'd already know. Or it would be them!
She said she thought it was the Losties from the future hiding in the past and not wanting to show themselves so they wouldn't mess with their past selves.
quote:Is Miles speaking with the dead? or is he speaking with the the living in another time?
It seems that the whispers are the voices of people who have died on the Island, and can possibly have the ability to manifest themselves as a physical form. Miles' ability to speak to the dead just sort of bolsters the idea that the dead can communicate with the living, especially when aided by the powers of the Island?
quote:I love this theory. It explains A. Lot. also? widdle whidmore? pain in the butt. He's less annoying as an old tyrant.
Could Whidmore be Faraday's father? The woman holding the gun on Faraday looks to be about the same age as Whidmore on the island.
quote:Every episode has lasted roughly a day, with a few exceptions. How are 70 hours going to be split among the remaining 14 episodes? The timeline on the island is very screwy, but time in the real world is still running normally. The next episode does focus on Kate and Aaron. If an entire season is spent on reuniting the O6, then I think that's wasted time. Their return to the Island has to be done this season if we are to see what the heck is going on at the island.
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
Also:
quote:Where do you get that math? An episode is 45 minutes long in "real time" and in "TV time" you can't even begin to measure them because of all these time travel shenanigans. How much time "elapsed" in this episode? With all the crazy stuff going on and off the island, I think there's plenty material to have everyone reunited in about 20 episodes.
I think that the six will return fairly early in the season. They do have 70 hours to return to the island. That's roughly 1 1/2 to 2 episodes.
quote:Agreed. I guess I didn't make it clear in my post that once I looked up the transcripts I left that theory behind.
Originally posted by Leonide:
quote:The future Losties wouldn't ask so many questions about who they're watching -- they'd already know. Or it would be them!
She said she thought it was the Losties from the future hiding in the past and not wanting to show themselves so they wouldn't mess with their past selves.
quote:that's a good point, and a really interesting idea. Though, two things about that. One, from the information that Miles is able to obtain from the "dead" people, it seems that have up to date current knowledge about themselves(i.e. - how the soldiers were killed). If he was talking to them at an earlier time, then they wouldn't know that. Two, if his ability does tie in to the whispers somehow(and that's definitely an if at the moment), and the impression left by the whisper transcripts is that the people speaking are currently dead(also an assumption), then your theory might not hold up. But...it's certainly a possibility, and in line with what's been happening recently.
Is Miles speaking with the dead? or is he speaking with the the living in another time?
quote:When you think of his powers like you stated them it does seem like he has some sort of temporal communication ability. That could also be why he was sent to the island, maybe Whidmore does know about the time travel, and chose to send him because of that.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I don't think Miles connection to the dead is accurately described by "talking to the dead" although that may be part of his ability. He is able to sense when, where and how people and animals die. He is aware of their graves when he passes near/over them. He knew where to find a dead boar in the forest. He also seems to be aware of secrets from peoples past, like the fact that Charlotte had lived on the island as a child.
I'm very interested to find out what his ability actually is.
quote:I would guess that Miles is speaking with the dead in the same way that Hurley is. They just aren't showing it to us the same way. Or maybe Miles can only hear them, while Hurley can see them as well.
Originally posted by Leonide:
Is Miles speaking with the dead? or is he speaking with the the living in another time?
quote:I'm curious why you would think that. The information Miles gets about the dead does not seem to have any overlap with the messages Hurley gets from the dead.
I would guess that Miles is speaking with the dead in the same way that Hurley is.
quote:Since the show isn't moving linearly in time, I don't see this to be a problem. The last episodes have shown us some of what is going on at the island so I can't see why return of the O6 would be essential for us learn more about the Island and what's happening to those left behind.
If an entire season is spent on reuniting the O6, then I think that's wasted time. Their return to the Island has to be done this season if we are to see what the heck is going on at the island.
, but her appearance to Kate seems to indicate that -- unless, of course, like I've been worried and/or intrigued about for awhile -- "Deaths" on the island aren't quite like deaths in the real world. And I don't just mean the appearing-to-living-people thing.
quote:Funny you should mention Claire and dead in the same sentence. My initial impression was that she died, and later a friend pointed out that she's with them as they're fleeing the the scene. Then she wanders off with Dad, but some little tickle in the back of my brain just assumed she was no longer of the living.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I've also noted that thus far, all the Losties that have appeared to the Oceanic 6 are confirmed dead, except Claire. I'm suspecting that Claire is also dead, that she was killed by the explosion that blew up her house.
It's also worth noting that thus far, Jin hasn't actually appeared to anyone, which keeps up hope that he is still alive.
quote:Doesn't someone ask him about being married (or am I confusing that with the question of having children?) in that episode with him replying the negative? Man, wish I were home where I could pop the DVD in and watch.
Originally posted by Strider:
That episode with Jin that you're talking about was Lost screwing with your head. The episode contained a flashforward for Sun, and a flashback for Jin. It was indeed AFTER he met Sun and was working for Mr. Paik, but before they ever ended up on the Island.
I don't think Claire is dead. When and how exactly did she die? I assume she's just chillin in the cabin with Christian Shepard and Jacob. Playing Boggle and Yahtzee to pass the time.
quote:Since Christian Shepard is dead and Jacob has only appeared in "ghostly" form, the very fact that Claire is chillin' with them in the cabin raises the question of whether or not she is alive.
I don't think Claire is dead. When and how exactly did she die? I assume she's just chillin in the cabin with Christian Shepard and Jacob. Playing Boggle and Yahtzee to pass the time.
.quote:i'm still arguing that the show is espousing the idea that there is no such thing as the "alterability of time". I point to the recent explanation of Richard's constant interest in John Locke throughout his life as proof of this.
every mystery can be explained by the fluidness/alterability of TIME
quote:define supernatural.
I can't imagine an explanation for the ghost one that isn't supernatural
quote:I don't believe anything happens that "exists outside the natural world" or "violates or goes beyond natural forces". While we as humans with our current understanding of the universe might not be able to explain certain events doesn't mean they are unexplainable. Just that our current scientific understanding can't explain it. I just don't like the term supernatural because of the implications of accepting a word like that(even though it's current use is more just a slang way of saying "unexplainable phenomena"). The idea of ghosts is one that most people call supernatural. And while I don't believe in ghosts, IF ghosts were real they would necessarily not be "supernatural". But a currently unexplainable "natural" phenomena. Subject to the same laws of the universe that everything else is subject to...ones that way may not happen to understand completely at the moment.
1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
3. Of or relating to a deity.
4. Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
5. Of or relating to the miraculous.
quote:I was going to go here, but you went there for me
This is obviously a show we're watching, created by people who may have different world views than me.
And I agree with your personal philosophy. Basically, I was trying to say that there probably isn't going to be OBOE, but many little explanations.quote:Hmm, you've convinced me, Rabbit. I still wonder what the 70 hour time limit is. Mrs. Hawking seems have a way of knowing when the island will appear. There is a lot to show on the island.
They have some major hurdles to overcome if they are going to return to the island in the next 70 hours. They've got to get Hurley out of jail. Sun is in league with Whidmore and wants to kill Ben. Meanwhile Ben has an outstanding threat to kill Penny. Kate is on the run and it took the FBI years to catch her before. She has been warned by Claire not to bring Aaron back to the island so its not going to be easy to persuade her to change her mind. Then there is Desmond and possibly Walt and even Frank. I can't see them resolving all those issues in only 2 or three episodes without some deus ex machina device.
quote:While I agree, I still think Ethan LOOKED like a zombie way back in season...1? 2? Way back, right before...you know, Charlie.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
*P.S. By "undead" I did not mean to imply she or anyone else is a zombie or vampire, I simply couldn't find any better word for describing the island dead who apparently come back to life.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:I just saw this 70 hour time limit in a new light. I was only thinking about it in terms of danger to the island and the people on it, i wasn't thinking about the fact that there might be a real world window of opportunity when the island is visible and able to get to, and that Mrs. Hawking would know when that window is open.
Hmm, you've convinced me, Rabbit. I still wonder what the 70 hour time limit is. Mrs. Hawking seems have a way of knowing when the island will appear. There is a lot to show on the island.
quote:You know, it's funny, I thought everyone would assume that, and then I didn't even think to mention it.
Originally posted by Strider:
OMG...can Miles be the son of Dr. Chang(orientation videos guy)???
quote:Jin I get because a lot people assumed he was alive. But what about Rousseau was confirmed for you?
Confirmed a lot of suspicions I had regarding Jin and Rousseau. Huzzah!
quote:I'm assuming till at least the time when the Oceanic 6 get back to the Island. My guess is that at some point in the time jumping the on Island Losties time jump to approx 3 years in the future(Island time) and this will be the same time that the Island is visible to the outside world during the window(the 70 hour window) which the Oceanic 6 need to get there. Thus it's been 3 years for the Oceanic 6, and 3 years for the Island, but just a few days of time jumping for the Losties.
So when does the time traveling stop, I wonder?
quote:Why do you leave Faraday out?
And when will Sawyer and Locke start to show signs? Juliette was the next logical step, and that took one additional leap after Miles...how long until Sawyer and Locke?
quote:As soon as they started jumping to different points of time on the island I assumed (hoped) that they'd run into young Rousseau. I certainly didn't think it would be Jin, however, although since I assumed he was still alive I don't know why I didn't make the connection that he'd necessarily be traveling at the same time as others. Whether or not Jin has ever come face to face with Rousseau before now is almost immaterial -- she's either made a point not to react to him, or (more likely, imo) she legitimately doesn't recognize him(since she's slightly unhinged when the Losties originally meet her). We also don't know how long Jin and this group will be in contact -- perhaps they'll be separated soon after this meeting.
But what about Rousseau was confirmed for you?
quote:Accidentally, truthfully, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea that Faraday is immune and/or "protected" somehow. Either by precautions he's taken in the "past" or some other reason. However, his amount of time on the island (at this point, assuming his adventures in the Orchid station are yet-to-come for him) vs. all the others might be negligible enough that it won't become evident before the time-jumping stops.
Why do you leave Faraday out?
quote:It worries me, too. I want to trust them that they've fleshed out whatever was necessary to make the show consistent, but I recall watching a behind-the-scenes thing on the first season and the writers/producers basically admiting to winging it. Maybe that's changed since then and that they've had to set more future episodes down way ahead of time, but I just don't know.
Originally posted by Strider:
Also, the meeting between Jin and Rousseau has me troubled a little bit. If she knows him from this earlier point in time, she should know him in the future when she runs into all the Losties. So here's my question, is the show being consistant. I'm trying to think if Rousseau ever saw or spoke to Jin in the show so far, cause if she had I'd assume she would recognize him. The first time at the end of season one when she warns the Losties about the Others, Jin is on the raft with Michael. Which is just brilliant if it's been planned the whole time. When Rousseau runs into them at the end of season 3 by the radio tower, Jin is back at the beach with Sawyer and Bernard. Has Rousseau ever run into Jin on the Island?? These guys are smart.
quote:I commented to my fellow Lost watcher that all these flashes were kind of annoying (in the I-want-answers! way). Sure, some of the things they see are explained simply because we've witnessed those scenes from past episodes (ex: the hatch light and kate/claire/baby). Following that thought up, I think it will be cool if/when they decide to tie up the new loose ends like the identity of the fire arrow shooters (somehow, I don't think that was either the American guys or the Others in that time...they had guns) or the canoe chase people.
Random thoughts:
When they get to their camp, and it's I assume at some point in the "future", Sawyer is pissed that the beers are drank. I bet its himself who drinks them at some future point for him, but in the past of the Island. Fun stuff.
Who are the people shooting at them? Where did they come from?
quote:I know!!! That's a really exciting prospect. I want to know why they all went crazy, like she says, or learn that really they didn't. Can't wait!
Are we going to see what happens with Rousseau and her people now? I can't wait to see how that's going to play out.
quote:Yeah, it does seem like there's a possibility he's protected himself using Desmond and his notebook and who knows what else. If anything, those could be working like antihistamines do against allergies, just holding the affects at bay. Just a thought, and definitely not a deep one since the possible analogy just hit me. Hmm...
Originally posted by Leonide:
quote:Accidentally, truthfully, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea that Faraday is immune and/or "protected" somehow. Either by precautions he's taken in the "past" or some other reason.
Why do you leave Faraday out?
quote:Well, i completely disagree that it's immaterial. Like Traceria says, for the show to be internally consistent this is a very important question. If she spends a significant amount of time with Jin in the past, then she would have to have amnesia not to recognize him in the future. So there are a few options that come of this:
Whether or not Jin has ever come face to face with Rousseau before now is almost immaterial -- she's either made a point not to react to him, or (more likely, imo) she legitimately doesn't recognize him(since she's slightly unhinged when the Losties originally meet her). We also don't know how long Jin and this group will be in contact -- perhaps they'll be separated soon after this meeting.
quote:here's the thing. if he's being protected by having a constant, why hasn't he told anyone else about the idea of constants? While these nosebleeds obviously relate to the time travel, and relate to the negative effects desmond was having as well as the other dude on the boat, they're not exactly the same. What happened to desmond and that other guy was caused by consciousness jumping. they were jumping in time within their own bodies at various times throughout their lives. what's happening to the folks now is their whole body actually jumping in time but staying in one location relative to the island.
Originally posted by Traceria:
quote:Yeah, it does seem like there's a possibility he's protected himself using Desmond and his notebook and who knows what else. If anything, those could be working like antihistamines do against allergies, just holding the affects at bay. Just a thought, and definitely not a deep one since the possible analogy just hit me. Hmm...
Originally posted by Leonide:
quote:Accidentally, truthfully, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea that Faraday is immune and/or "protected" somehow. Either by precautions he's taken in the "past" or some other reason.
Why do you leave Faraday out?
quote:Hmm... So one way or another, a variable is changing. Maybe they have it set up so that no matter what variable alters, the body's reaction is the same. I mean, why get creative with your symptoms?
what's happening to the folks now is their whole body actually jumping in time but staying in one location.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:It's immaterial because of exactly what I said. Whether or not the writers are "winging it" there are plenty of plausible explanations as to why she might not recognize him, including, but not limited to: her never seeing him in the future, her seeing him but not long enough to recognize him, her seeing him but being CRAZY and not connecting the dots, her being told to or deciding not to react to him because of what happens with Past!Jin, etc.etc.etc. If the 16 years that have passed have made it difficult for her to recognize strange mystery boat-wreck survivors she met one time, one day, before her baby was stolen from her, before her fellow scientists were killed, before she lived alone like a hermit for years on end...well, i'm thinking the show is going to give us something plausible to work with.
Well, i completely disagree that it's immaterial. Like Traceria says, for the show to be internally consistent this is a very important question
If the past is changeable, that's another reason. I wouldn't be thrilled with that one at this point, either, but it could always happen.quote:He protected himself before the memory lapses started occurring, and he doesn't remember that aspect of his work?
here's the thing. if he's being protected by having a constant, why hasn't he told anyone else about the idea of constants?
quote:Time travel in science fiction always (almost always) includes positional shifting to eliminate that issue. The only counter-example I can think of is probably Spider Robinson's ... I think it was Callahan's Key. Where a character travelling a mere hour in time almost dies because they wound up in deep space.
Originally posted by Achilles:
Actually, they are moving millions of miles or more. If they appeared at the same point in space as they started, they'd be sucking vacuum.
quote:I'd say "keepin' it real, man" but with Lost I think it would be more apt to say "keepin' it internally consistant."
Originally posted by Strider:
you're right Achilles, fixed up my statement.
quote:Yep, that is why i watch.
Originally posted by Leonide:
[QB] Much more interesting to see Angsty!Sawyer pine away on the island.
quote:I'm still waiting for Sawyer and Miles to really face off. That would be one entertaining exchange.
Originally posted by Uprooted:
Angsty Sawyer's getting on my nerves as bad as angsty Jack. And he looked better when he was burying the angst under inappropriate jokes at others' expense--anyone w/ dimples that great needs to smile sometimes.
quote:Actually, this is one part of his personality that I'm really starting to get tired of. Feels more like the writers cashing in on a popular quirk than anything organic to the character.
And he looked better when he was burying the angst under inappropriate jokes at others' expense
quote:Does anyone else think what was Hurley's voice?
Originally posted by Strider:
I'd like to comment on one thing before talking about the episode at all.
Does anyone else think that's Hurley's voice broadcasting the numbers?
quote:On the boat, I believe. Before it exploded.
Originally posted by Uprooted:
And as usual, I can't remember stuff from previous episodes. When/how did Jin/we learn that Charlotte speaks Korean?
quote:I can't remember if it was either mentioned or confirmed there, but there was actually another instance that clued us in. Jin and Sun were speaking in Korean, and Charlotte either said something or reacted in a way that gave away the fact she understood. Sun, I believe, tried to call her on it, but Charlotte attempted to play it off. It was near the end of last season.
Originally posted by Javert:
quote:On the boat, I believe. Before it exploded.
Originally posted by Uprooted:
And as usual, I can't remember stuff from previous episodes. When/how did Jin/we learn that Charlotte speaks Korean?
quote:yeah, this is definitely not what i was talking about last week. nope, nothing to see here.
They dropped an interesting line from Faraday tonight after explaining something about the time jumps saying something along the lines of "this is where science ends". It has me a bit worried and speculating that the producers may have the characters "change" something or veer off the path they've been heading down of explaining more and more mysteries through natural/scientific means
quote:yeah, i talked about this in relation to the nose bleeds and temporal displacement but didn't really get anywhere in understanding what the differences, if any, are in the affect on the people time traveling.
Also, have we discussed DesmondTravel versus IslandTravel? Obviously there are different types of time travel going on here: DesmondTravel is closest to, like, Quantum Leaping...he enters himself at different times of his life, though, versus entering other people. It's a mental transference -- FutureDesmond into PastDesmonds. On the Island, though, the Losties are physically (?) moving through time/space, but remaining in their own selves.
quote:I assume they're traveling in time as well, but possibly holed up somewhere, ignoring the goings on of everyone else...the cave maybe? Maybe Rose and Bernard are Adam and Eve. Black Rock/White Rock, black woman/white man, BOOM!
Are Rose/Bernard and the other (possibly) alive Losties traveling as well, just in separate places? Are we assuming that the Sawyer/Juliet/Freighter Team people are the only ones this is affecting? If so, why?
quote:Ah, so that's why we only got one episode of flashbacks for them... Nifty idea. Makes you wonder if they're the trick up the writers' sleeves.
Originally posted by Strider:
quote:I assume they're traveling in time as well, but possibly holed up somewhere, ignoring the goings on of everyone else...the cave maybe? Maybe Rose and Bernard are Adam and Eve. Black Rock/White Rock, black woman/white man, BOOM!
Are Rose/Bernard and the other (possibly) alive Losties traveling as well, just in separate places? Are we assuming that the Sawyer/Juliet/Freighter Team people are the only ones this is affecting? If so, why?
quote:*pats head* It'll all be ooookay.
Originally posted by Strider:
It's not really helping all that much.
quote:Have you checked hulu, alluc or surfthechannel to see if it's been posted at any of those sites?
Originally posted by theCrowsWife:
I'm really annoyed that ABCs new online player only works with Windows XP/Vista and Macs. I missed the last third of the episode to deal with my daughter refusing to go to bed, and now I can't watch it online.
quote:I would like to know more about Ben's off-island network of friends. He seems to have a lot people who will help him without question. They all have legitimate day jobs (except Eloise Hawking), and Ben himself appeared to be a veterinarian. Are they all waiting to get back to the Island? Where did they come from? Are they Dharma, or are they natives who were rejected from the Island?
Originally posted by Strider:
That's a really good point. I noticed the look and realized that he didn't know that Mrs. Hawking was Faraday's mother, but I didn't really think about the implications of what that meant till last night talking it over with someone else.
Widmore is Ben's enemy. Widmore sent a bunch of people to the Island on a boat, one of the purposes of which was to capture Ben. Faraday was one of those people. The mother of that person is the person Ben answers too.
That's really got to throw him for a loop.
quote:
Originally posted by Liz B:
...and to conclude, they are lying knaves!
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
quote:Channel away!
Originally posted by Leonide:
Secondarily, I'm finding myself starting to like Ben, which is a bizarre feeling. Moreover, I feel like (if this is the right course of action they're taking) that he's doing more than anyone else to actually make it come about. Sixth and lastly, they have belied a lady!*
*channeling much ado, pay no mind.
quote:That's almost word for word what my boyfriend said.
Originally posted by Jeorge:
And my assumption was that he went to find and kill Penny. His comment about a promise to a friend, and tying up a loose end seemed to fit with that.
quote:I think it was the lack of scruff on the face.
Originally posted by Lisa:
And Lapidus... was that a different actor? He looked incredibly different.
quote:why do you assume that? Are you saying that the Losties jumping in time stopped jumping at some point during the Dharma initiative time on the Island and have inserted themselves into Dharma life?
Well, they are probably in a time-period that is near where we saw Faraday in the first episode this season
quote:what do you mean by castaways? I'm specifically talking about Sun, Sayid, Ben, and Locke, and to a further extent the rest of the people on the plane. I'm assuming that the other time hoppers are not too far from Jin.
Where Jin is, the other castaways may be as well.
quote:no, i agree. Achilles just didn't really explain his thoughts anymore than that and i was wondering if that's where he was going with that though.
The connection between those is loose, for sure, but at this point, it seems the best guess.
quote:we should create a dictionary.
The castaways? I meant the time hoppers. It's getting difficult to define the groups
quote:Oh, most assuredly. I should have clarified: I'm starting to enjoy Ben. He amuses me/intrigues me now in a way his character never did before.
Even if it turns out that, in the end, Ben is on the side of the "good guys," his lack of compassion makes him a bad guy, as far as I'm concerned.
quote:Until someone mistypes LAL as LOL.
Originally posted by Achilles:
TH and LAL for short?
quote:They did LOLTrek; I'm kind of surprised no one has done LOLLost yet.
Originally posted by Traceria:
quote:Until someone mistypes LAL as LOL.
Originally posted by Achilles:
TH and LAL for short?
quote:Lost LOLS
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:They did LOLTrek; I'm kind of surprised no one has done LOLLost yet.
Originally posted by Traceria:
quote:Until someone mistypes LAL as LOL.
Originally posted by Achilles:
TH and LAL for short?
quote:Except, of course, there's also the Rose/Bernard Not-Quite-As-Lost-Losties, somewhere else (in time?) on the Island (Jin was included in here before he ran into The Time Hoppers)...and then there are the UnDeadLosties, like Charlie, Boone, Ana Lucia...who come back and speak and may or may not be dead AND may or may not be "themselves"...and then there are the Other Others, aka Richard's People, including Whidmore, and then there are the Flaming-Arrow Shooting People (presuming that they are not Richard's People), and Rousseau's People. And Desmond and Penny and Wee Charlie, and Ben's People back in LA, aka Butcher Shop Lady and Maybe!Farraday's Mother, who may or may not be under the influence of Old!Whidmore
TH and LAL for short?
quote:
Originally posted by Leonide:
So, in short:
quote:Possibly. Maybe it's as simple as wanting to mess with his poor little Jack brain...or as involved/silly as needing Christian's shoes to be able to resurrect Locke.
Perhaps it was more about getting Jack into the right state of mind than about actually having the physical items and circustances similar
quote:I'm kind of annoyed that YOU spoiled this for me. Watching the show online, I didn't see the previews for next week...
Originally posted by Leonide:
ps. I'm kind of annoyed that they spoiled Locke's resurrection in the previews for next week. The more I think about it, the more it bothers me...did enough fans know he was going to be working through the entire season that they didn't care? I would've loved to have been surprised by that.
![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
quote:When you watch it airing, do you usually turn it off before the come on?
Originally posted by Javert:
I didn't see the previews for next week...
quote:In my defense, others were already discussing the Locke/Jacob theory, which, you have to admit, would be kind of implausible given the fact that he's currently dead
I'm kind of annoyed that YOU spoiled this for me. Watching the show online, I didn't see the previews for next week...
quote:part way through the episode i had similar thoughts due to the characters we knew had made it back to the Island. I said, "so they've gotten back to the Island too early in time, Jack and Kate are Adam and Eve, Hurley goes crazy again and broadcasts the numbers, and Locke is Jacob". But between what happens at the end of the episode and the preview for next week, I don't think that holds up. Not that those things can't be true, just that they'll need a lot more proof before I'd consider them viable. Though the Adam and Eve thing is old, and I've speculated about Hurley since the other week. I like the idea of Jacob not being related to any individuals and is pure essence O' Island, but we'll see how that plays out.
I'm only halfway through last night's episode, but I have a crazy theory. For all I know, someone else has already suggested it, but here goes:
Locke is Jacob.
quote:My guess is that Ben (or his agents) somehow arranged all of these. He probably played hardball with Kate and figured out some way to force her to give up Aaron, perhaps convincing her its the only way to ultimately protect him - not unlike the deal with Michael. And I'd bet Hurley showed up because Ben (or maybe another dead person, like Locke) informed him that hundreds of people on the plane would die if he didn't go there and buy all the tickets. Hurley would be compelled to save their lives. No idea how he got out of jail or how Sayid got handcuffed, but I suspect that will be showed soon enough. But it does seem as if Ben knows the plan will work, and that everyone necessary will end up on the plane.
How did Hurley get out of jail and know where to go? Why is Sayid in handcuffs and why is he being transported to Guam? What did Kate do with Aaron?
quote:I don't think Ben is selfish. Ben is the classic ends-justifies-the-means character. They haven't really explained what end he is going after, but he seems intent on achieving it no matter who gets hurt in the process. He even gets his daughter killed, after all.
Liking Ben... Huh. That is strange. I like him as an interesting character, but I don't like that, in my opinion anyway, he's ultimately working for himself.
quote:Yup, maybe Christian called her up on the Lostophone and requested that she send his shoes back into the island's past, so he can find them in the present.
Maybe Christian Shepard just wants his shoes back!
quote:I'd predict that the arc of Jack's character will end up with him learning to become a "Man of Faith" like Locke.
I also think that Jack having to take a "leap of faith" is going to haunt him. This is not in Jack's character.
quote:If that ends up being the case, I sincerely hope he IS Adam. Both for the religious symmetry and because then I wouldn't have to watch Jack act anything like Locke.
I'd predict that the arc of Jack's character will end up with him learning to become a "Man of Faith" like Locke.
quote:When it comes to Hurley, it's more likely it was Charlie or Libby or Ana Lucia (suddenly I wonder if that's with two n's or one yet don't care enough to check).
Originally posted by Tresopax:
And I'd bet Hurley showed up because Ben (or maybe another dead person, like Locke) informed him that hundreds of people on the plane would die if he didn't go there and buy all the tickets. Hurley would be compelled to save their lives.
quote:See, I think the end you mention is going to be something Bencentric, and that's where he would be selfish provided this feeling of mine about him rings true.
quote:I don't think Ben is selfish. Ben is the classic ends-justifies-the-means character. They haven't really explained what end he is going after, but he seems intent on achieving it no matter who gets hurt in the process. He even gets his daughter killed, after all.
Liking Ben... Huh. That is strange. I like him as an interesting character, but I don't like that, in my opinion anyway, he's ultimately working for himself.
quote:You meant LaLosties, right?
I bet that we'll find out more about Ben's motives soon, particularly if the Losties are now in Dharam Initiative time.
quote:Last weeks episode had a scene where Ben was talking to his lawyer who assured him that Hurley would be cleared and released within a day so I think the first part of the question has already been answered.
How did Hurley get out of jail and know where to go?
quote:As a rule? Have you ever seen Primer?
I hate time travel stories, anyway
quote:Not entirely true...but I'll admit it helps clear a lot up, much like extra research on, say, Donnie Darko, or House of Leaves adds to the overall understanding and enjoyment.
Bring the internet with you when you do. It's totally incomprehensible without help
quote:weird, I LOVE the time travel aspect of it. In part because the first thing I thought when they started doing this was, "finally everything makes sense".
Originally posted by Uprooted:
Scott R, I'm with you there. I'll stick with Lost just because I've invested so much in it, but basically I just keep hoping all the frenetic hopping around will stop and we'll get some real story again. There are way too many characters and storylines and not enough time spent on any of them.
quote:Hmm...part of my problem with time-travel stories is that they feel like cheating. I dunno-- I think the mechanism is cheap and cliche. I can't wait for the time-skipping to be over.
I LOVE the time travel aspect of it. In part because the first thing I thought when they started doing this was, "finally everything makes sense".
quote:It's sad that I cannot remember this at all. I read "manifest itself as individuals" and was like, "Wuh?" I'll take your word for it instead of going back and watching old episodes in the exactly NO free time I have. XD
We know that the smoke monster can manifest itself as individuals and interact with people(it manifested itself as Yemi to Eko).
quote:That's why I stopped writing them, Scott.
Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:Hmm...part of my problem with time-travel stories is that they feel like cheating. I dunno-- I think the mechanism is cheap and cliche. I can't wait for the time-skipping to be over.
I LOVE the time travel aspect of it. In part because the first thing I thought when they started doing this was, "finally everything makes sense".
quote:except Locke was standing around WITH the Others when he started time jumping. But they didn't jump in time with him.
It would seem more to me that the smoke monster just has that ability to pick and choose, or perhaps, the people who got sucked into time jumping had to be there in the exact time that it all got screwed up.
quote:Some other people have complained about the time travel aspect and I'm generally baffled. You've accepted an Island that can cure cancer, take away someone's sterility, make someone be able to walk again, has a black smoke monster that can scan people's memories and manifest itself to them, induce visions in people on the Island, has brought together all these people who have all these mysterious connections in their pasts, is tied to a series of magic numbers, has a cabin that can move in location on the island that may or may not contain some sort of person or spirit with magic powers, a man on it doesn't ever age, a man was instantaneously brought to the Island through a magic box, a character has been able to see outside of time for the last two seasons, there are unexplainable whispers that surround characters at various times, and more...
Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:Hmm...part of my problem with time-travel stories is that they feel like cheating. I dunno-- I think the mechanism is cheap and cliche. I can't wait for the time-skipping to be over.
I LOVE the time travel aspect of it. In part because the first thing I thought when they started doing this was, "finally everything makes sense".
quote:Maybe the stipulations are:
Originally posted by Strider:
quote:except Locke was standing around WITH the Others when he started time jumping. But they didn't jump in time with him.
It would seem more to me that the smoke monster just has that ability to pick and choose, or perhaps, the people who got sucked into time jumping had to be there in the exact time that it all got screwed up.
quote:Because, for me, time travel is inherently uncool.
I'm not sure what is so crazy about the addition of time travel that is fundamentally different from everything else they've shown. What's more, between Desmond and Faraday it seems they've been hinting at this and leading up to this for a while. before it actually happened.
This isn't a judgment on your personal tastes of whether you like or dislike time travel stories. Just curious as to how all that other stuff was cool, and why time travel is suddenly different.
quote:I agree, it was getting to be a bit too much towards the end. I'll be happy for either a slow down or a stoppage.
I think I'd be less bothered if the Island Losties (forgot what we agreed to call them) weren't being whipped around in time so frequently.
quote:Here's the thing, and granted the following is only my personal theory, I had postulated earlier the the reason the Island manipulates events to bring certain people to the Island was because from it's perspective, those people exist on the Island at an earlier point in time than when they actually first get to the Island from their own subjective timeline. It tries to bring them to the Island because it KNOWS they need to come to the Island so they can be there when they start time jumping.
Originally posted by Tresopax:
Maybe the Island simply sends whoever back in time that it needs to send back in time. After all, it seems to be able to manipulate events to bring whoever it wants to the island. Maybe it can also bring whoever it wants to the island whenever it wants too.
quote:This is a good example of why I hate time travel stories.
I had postulated earlier the the reason the Island manipulates events to bring certain people to the Island was because from it's perspective, those people exist on the Island at an earlier point in time than when they actually first get to the Island from their own subjective timeline. It tries to bring them to the Island because it KNOWS they need to come to the Island so they can be there when they start time jumping.
quote:I'm hoping it's not that the Island is choosing who but because the time jumpers fulfill certain requirements. Maybe the Other Others (because their original physical bodies are no longer how they get around? just a guess) are 'immune' to the jumping due to that lack of original physical body. That also might be why they can appear here and there when necessary and disappear just as easily. It makes the time jumping 'thingy' unable to get a good grip on them or something. And I'm going to stick with my earlier surmise that the folks we call the Time Jumpers got sucked in because they are stuck in their original physical bodies and because they were present in the time when the Island got all screwed up.
Originally posted by Strider:
BUT, if the Island is also manipulating who is time jumping then it sets up a system without an initial cause in my mind. You may be right, but it then requires another level of explanation as to how or why the Island is doing all this.
quote:agreed.
I think once you become part of the others you become part of the island. Whether it's the island that is jumping through time relative to those who were "guests" (haha) when Ben turned the wheel, or if it's the guests who are jumping--the Others stay with the island, while the guests are cut loose from the island's timeline.
quote:maybe, but this doesn't explain the strange way in which the smoke monster interacted with her when she was with Kate. No one has offered an alternative explanation for what happened there. I don't think it's a bad assumption to say that the smoke monster was "de-otherizing" her during that interaction. And the mark may be the reason for the smoke monster taking those actions, thus making her a "guest" now.
As for Juliet--the fact that she's jumping seems to indicate that she's a guest. And that's certainly the way that she's always perceived it.
quote:I agree up to the Christian part. I agree that i think Jacob is a manifestation of the Island and a while ago, possibly last season, I layed out what I think Jacob is. Here's a summation:
BTW, I think "Jacob" is the island. The island just manifests as something the person being spoken to can recognize. Christian is speaking for Jacob, but actually Christian=Jacob=the island.
quote:I don't agree that Christian=Jacob=the island. I do think christian is speaking for jacob but if the island is manifesting itself as people the character recognize(which it HAS done often) why would it manifest itself to Locke as Jack's dad? I think Christian has a different connection with the Island, as do maybe all dead people, particularly ones whose bodies are on the Island maybe? Miles can obviously connect to them.
my theory has always been that jacob is the island, or the power of the island, manifested. And that Ben has trapped(or someone has) this essence of the island in the cabin. The island gets its power from this weird electromagnetic force right(think of the hatch and numbers)? think about the cabin. it's completely secluded. surrounded by a circle of white ash. ben says jacob hates technology, so there is nothing with power. no lights, nothing. when locke and ben go visit jacob for the first time everything is calm until jacob says help me(it seems like getting those words out were a real strain). when he says that locke flips on his flashlight and everything goes crazy and things are flying around the room. the chair is rocking. you can see a puff of black smoke rocking back in forth in the chair. my theory is that this essence of the island is trapped in the cabin, cut off from its power source. it draws power from lockes flashlight and uses it for itself. And just manifests itself as this Jacob persona.
![[Hat]](graemlins/hat.gif)
quote:I think that is necessary - it is the frenetic nature of the jumping that creates the sense of urgency toward getting everyone back.
Originally posted by Uprooted:
I think I'd be less bothered if the Island Losties (forgot what we agreed to call them) weren't being whipped around in time so frequently.
quote:Yeah, I think in combination with your number three (mention of Eloise was just another check on Ben's list), we've got a likely motivation.
Originally posted by theCrowsWife:
Traceria, your post wasn't there when I started typing. I think I agree with you about Ben's motivation, at least in general. I'm sure we'll find out more of the specifics in the coming episodes.
--Mel
quote:It also explains why Ben wouldn't let people leave. Juliette really wanted to go be with her sister, but Ben wouldn't let her. Ben is trying to fix the continuity and he needs Juliette there.
Originally posted by The Reader:
Time travel creates most of the complications in the story, but explains why certain people can't die. I think these people are caught in a causal loop. They make decisions that create problems in the objective past, which would be their subjective future, due to time travel that they are not aware of yet, or hasn't happened yet. They can't die because then something along the lines of the "grandfather paradox" would come into effect, though the problem is not nearly that simple.
This is why Micheal was allowed to die. He fixed a causal loop by allowing the O6 to escape the Kahana. In previous "iterations" this didn't happen. Of course, they have to come back to fix another causal loop.
Causal loops also explain the "undead." These are people who lived through previous iterations, but died in the current one. They can't be allowed to let go yet because there is something specific that they have to do in order to fix the loop. Their current attempt to fix the causal loop is a failure because the specific actions necessary can't be completed, but their "consciousness" or whatever it is, is preserved by an unknown physical universal law, until the loop can restart.
quote:Did you watch his eyes and the look on his face when John was talking about Jin and Sun, though?
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Rewatching the clip, I think its clear that it is something in the mention of Eloise Hawking that triggers Ben's attack on Locke. I have no idea exactly what that might be, but its pretty clear that her name was the trigger.
quote:hah, yeah, but I got more of a kick from his reaction to Locke saying he wasn't dead. The look he gave him was priceless. Like a pitied sort of look for the poor guy who doesn't even realize he's dead. Btw, Locke comes to see Hurley probably right after Charlie appears to him in that vision from the premier of season 4. Hurley is sitting in the same place, wearing the same clothing, drawing the same picture. This is partly why Hurley isn't surprised to see Locke and assumes he's dead.
Originally posted by Traceria:
Did anyone else get a kick out of how freaked out Hurley was when he found out Locke was REAL?!
quote:
Back to Ben, though... Sure, we all know he's capable of murder and all that jazz, but I think it's important to know what triggered the decision to commit it. I'm tempted to say it was not the mention of Eloise (though that certainly added a nail to the coffin) but Locke's revealing of the promise to Jin to not bring Sun back.
quote:I think you guys are right on with this assessment. Ben's demeanor changes at the mention of Jin. I'm assuming because once he knows that Jin is alive he figures he can get Sun to come back. And if he can get Sun to come back he's one step closer to bringing them all back?
This is the second time that Ben has tried killing Locke. The first time it was because Locke heard Jacob, and Ben was jealous. I think it's likely that this is the same situation - Ben realizes how deep Locke is in the scheme of things because he knows who Hawking is. So he gets jealous and kills him.
quote:1. yup
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I'm trying to patch together various pieces.
1. Jack, Kate and Hurley were some how teleported from the plane space/time to the island surface, roughly 30 years ago and are now in the same time frame as Jin and presumably the other time jumpers.
2. Locke, Ben, and Frank stayed with the plane and the strangers on the plane. No clear what time frame they are in. One clue as to time frame was the boats on the shore. Were there two or three boats with the jumpers found them? Another clues might be the stuff they found in the Dharma site.
3. We still have no idea where and when Sun and Sayid ended up.
quote:I really don't like the idea of causal loops and to be honest, don't completely understand them.
Originally posted by The Pixiest:
quote:It also explains why Ben wouldn't let people leave. Juliette really wanted to go be with her sister, but Ben wouldn't let her. Ben is trying to fix the continuity and he needs Juliette there.
Originally posted by The Reader:
Time travel creates most of the complications in the story, but explains why certain people can't die. I think these people are caught in a causal loop. They make decisions that create problems in the objective past, which would be their subjective future, due to time travel that they are not aware of yet, or hasn't happened yet. They can't die because then something along the lines of the "grandfather paradox" would come into effect, though the problem is not nearly that simple.
This is why Micheal was allowed to die. He fixed a causal loop by allowing the O6 to escape the Kahana. In previous "iterations" this didn't happen. Of course, they have to come back to fix another causal loop.
Causal loops also explain the "undead." These are people who lived through previous iterations, but died in the current one. They can't be allowed to let go yet because there is something specific that they have to do in order to fix the loop. Their current attempt to fix the causal loop is a failure because the specific actions necessary can't be completed, but their "consciousness" or whatever it is, is preserved by an unknown physical universal law, until the loop can restart.
Ben and Whitmore could be fighting to see that the loop resolves their own ways.
Whitmore killed Ben's daughter, Ben said "You changed the rules." Maybe Ben's daughter was supposed to survive regardless of the outcome of the loop? Now that won't happen.
Jacob could be the guy at the far end of the loop who's helping Ben course correct. As if to say "Ok, this change had an unfavorable outcome, you need to fix it." or "Kill this guy or he'll doom the whole project."
I like this theory.
quote:Emphasis mine. In this way I agree with a causal loop theory. But not an iteration theory. Iterations from my point of view are impossible.
A predestination paradox, also called either a causal loop, or a causality loop and (less frequently) either a closed loop or closed time loop, is a paradox of time travel that is often used as a convention in science fiction. It exists when a time traveller is caught in a loop of events that "predestines" or "predates" them to travel back in time. Because of the possibility of influencing the past while time traveling, one way of explaining why history does not change is by saying that whatever has happened was meant to happen. A time traveller attempting to alter the past in this model, intentionally or not, would only be fulfilling their role in creating history as we know it, not changing it. Or that the time-traveler's personal knowledge of history already includes their future travels to their own experience of the past. Effectively, it means this: the time traveller is in the past, which means they were in the past before. Therefore, their presence is vital to the future, and they do something that causes the future to occur the same way that their knowledge of the future has already happened. It is very closely related to the ontological paradox and usually occurs at the same time.
The predestination paradox is in some ways the opposite of the grandfather paradox, the famous example of the traveller killing their own grandfather before his parent is conceived, thereby precluding his own travel to the past by canceling his own existence.
In physics, the Novikov self-consistency principle proposes that contradictory causal loops cannot form, but that consistent ones can. In a physical sense, a self-consistent causal loop of this kind is not actually a paradox because it produces a logically consistent result rather than a contradictory one. It is only perceived as a paradox because it goes against conventional expectations and assumptions about causality.
quote:I'd rather it be this way, for it's the one that makes the most sense to me in and outside of Lost.
in my mind events in time happen. and that's it. they happen once and only once.
quote:Well, they're in the same general time, but Jin looks settled, almost like he's made his peace in that time period -- he's like a scout/guard, maybe, a sentinel of sorts -- the one who goes out and deals with strangeness in the jungle. His hair is longer, he's clean-shaven and has a new outfit, no less. It seems to be after we last left the Time Hoppers.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
1. Jack, Kate and Hurley were some how teleported from the plane space/time to the island surface, roughly 30 years ago and are now in the same time frame as Jin and presumably the other time jumpers.
quote:Um, yum?
I'm guessing Sayid has gone commando in the forest.
quote:Except if he really wanted to ensure that eventuality, he would've been clearer and spelled it out for him. Locke might not have even thought another thing of it -- it was such a throw-away line.
We do now have a possible reason for why the island/ Jacob would manifest as Christian Shepherd to John Locke--so he could tell John, "Say hi to my son"--which seems to be what has convinced Jack that he (Jack) does in fact need to go back to the island.
quote:*headdesk*
As for Ben and his motivations--I think it was purely the mention of Hawking that made him change his mind and kill Locke.
quote:
Originally posted by Leonide:
I don't know. His reaction came so quickly after the Eloise mention that I can't imagine it was that, or *only* that. Ben had a similar look on his face when Locke mentioned Jin being alive.
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
quote:
Thanks.
quote:I never said they were in the same time frame in which we last saw the time hoppers -- just same time frame.
Originally posted by Leonide:
quote:Well, they're in the same general time, but Jin looks settled, almost like he's made his peace in that time period -- he's like a scout/guard, maybe, a sentinel of sorts -- the one who goes out and deals with strangeness in the jungle. His hair is longer, he's clean-shaven and has a new outfit, no less. It seems to be after we last left the Time Hoppers.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
1. Jack, Kate and Hurley were some how teleported from the plane space/time to the island surface, roughly 30 years ago and are now in the same time frame as Jin and presumably the other time jumpers.
quote:Um, yum?
I'm guessing Sayid has gone commando in the forest.
quote:Huh-buh-guh-wuh?
I never said they were in the same time frame in which we last saw the time hoppers -- just same time frame.
quote:By this do you mean "why don't you agree with me?" Because I think you've expressed your theory clearly and people see where you're coming from. Doesn't mean they agree with you, though.
Originally posted by Traceria:
Yep, totally a "why don't you see where I'm coming from!?" moment! XD
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
quote:I still hate the term flash forward, though it is sometimes useful to use that terminology to indicate what time frame you're talking about. Down with flash forwards!
I think this show brings out that "why don't you see where I'm coming from!?" exasperation in people. I remember an argument I had with someone over the nature of the episodes once the LaLosties left the Island...before we knew what was going on specifically. I was convinced that the things happening on the island were still the primary events of the story, while the activities of the LaLosties were "flash forwards," different from the "flashbacks" we'd been getting before then. I was chastised for using the term "flash forward." It was a point of particular contention, involving arguments about the nature of the show's narrative structure and how liable that was to just up and change...I remember being pretty upset that the other person wasn't seeing eye-to-eye with me! [Smile]
quote:I don't think he's Christian Shepard in the same way that Locke is still Locke. I think locke has been fully brought back to life(body and spirit), while Christian has been brought back, but not to the same level(maybe only spirit). I think he's more "real" than the other visions on the Island. But like you say, he couldn't touch Locke and things like that indicate he's not fully physically there. Maybe that's why Christian Shepard needs his shoes! To be fully reincarnated.
quote:
Originally posted by Leonide:
edit: although, I would like to put in my vote for that not being Christian Shepherd, for a number of reasons. (or, well, two!)
1) He "couldn't" help Locke stand after he fell down the well.
2) He's sneaky and mysterious, and I just don't see the "real" Christian Shepherd that we were introduced to in Jack's flashbacks as choosing to haunt the Island rather than reunite with his son and act like, well, you know -- a Human?
quote:I agree with the first half of your theory Rabbit. I think that last turn of the wheel jumped them and then they stayed put wherever they ended up. But I assume they've been there for a long time. For some reasons not the least of which is because in the preview for next week when they had that whole cheesy bit that made me want to puke about the "moment you've all been waiting for" and has sawywer say something along the lines of "can you get over someone after 3 years?"
I'm going to speculate that the time jumping stopped when Locke pushed the wheel back on its axis. At that moment the Time Hoppers were in Dharma time and they have been stuck there ever since. We really don't have a clue how long but I'm betting on the same length of time that Locke spent away from the island -- so a few weeks not a few years.
quote:I don't think they are in a third time. But i would put them at the same time as the rest of the plane passengers. It would explain who the woman is that took the boat with Lapidus and ran off. What other woman would do that? Is Lapidus that smooth of a player?
I'm really torn between speculating that Sayid and Sun are in the same time frame with Hurley, Jack and Kate and that they are with the rest of the plane passengers. It will be much easier to explain if the Oceanic 5 stay together than if they are separated in time. If they are in yet a third time, it will simply be too much.
quote:I'm with you Traceria. I obviously post a whole lot of speculation. And i'm fine with people disagreeing with me, and having different theories. But for instance, when i disagree with someone's theory i usually point out specifically why, and state my reasons for supporting my theory. When someone posits their own theory without addressing why they disagree with yours it can make you think they didn't even read yours, regardless of if they did or not. Especially if a point you made would make their theory nonviable(for instance, you don't need to agree with my theory of the monster de-otherizing juliet, but if you disagree(general you) i'd like to hear thoughts about the way in which the monster was interacting with Juliet and what else that would indicate). Though I'm happy we all remain friendly and civil here. I have a friend who posts at the "lost forum" and she says people there are pretty vicious.
Sometimes I wonder if people read through all the comments, ya know? Not that we should expect everyone to do so all the time (sometimes it's just not possible), but when a reason isn't mentioned for why a theory isn't considered or, more of a stretch, accepted, I can't help but wonder. Call it a personal flaw if you will.
quote:
Maybe that's why Christian Shepard needs his shoes!
quote:Not without the beard, he isn't.
Is Lapidus that smooth of a player?
Pardon me, I just got to a new 'Age' in Myst and am a little giddy (and silly) because of it. Actually, I'm with you, I have a feeling Sun is at least in the same time as the other passengers and Lapidus. Jury's out on Sayid. We haven't been given enough info to make a decent guess, but I agree with you that it's either the time of the other passengers or the same time as Jack, Kate and Hurley.quote:I'm not quite sure what to say to that except, "I'm sorry." I was posting again while you were, it seems, and had just finished typing, "I hope no one thought I was being nasty." So, yeah. Sorry.
Originally posted by Liz B:
Look. I read the first post Traceria posted about Ben & his motivations for killing Locke at 10 AM, then I taught two classes, then I read the new posts, then I posted.
As soon as you wrote back (huffily) I responded (not huffily). I will admit that I didn't go back to your original 9ish AM post and re-read it for your theory that Ben killed Locke so he wouldn't tell Sun Jin was dead. I went back, saw your response to The Rabbit about the look in Ben's eyes, and responded to that.
Please, can we have reasonable expectations? I'd like to continue to participate in this thread but it's really not worth it if I have to worry about hurting people's feelings every time I post and don't respond directly to their theory.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
quote:Yeah, but you've been assimilated. Resistance is Useless!
I still hate the term flash forward
quote:Yep. It's not great evidence.
We do now have a possible reason for why the island/ Jacob would manifest as Christian Shepherd to John Locke--so he could tell John, "Say hi to my son"--which seems to be what has convinced Jack that he (Jack) does in fact need to go back to the island.quote:
Except if he really wanted to ensure that eventuality, he would've been clearer and spelled it out for him. Locke might not have even thought another thing of it -- it was such a throw-away line.
But I'm willing to consider it just because the island seems to be pretty tricky in how it gets people where it wants them. Things happen that are fate, or look like fate. I'm not convinced of the Christian=Jacob thing myself...but I'm still considering it.quote:I agree that time stopped jumping, but I'd bet they've been there for about a year or two. I also bet we'll find out that Daniel has spent that time trying to figure out how to get themselves back to the right time period. And I bet that it is something that's going to require Jack, Kate, and Hurley to be there - which is why they had to be the ones that go back in time. And I also bet that Daniel's plan is somehow going to spark the electromagnetic "incident" at the Hatch that ultimately led the Dharma Initiative to require the numbers to be entered every so many minutes. And, perhaps, perhaps, Daniel's plan might also involve the nuclear bomb which was conveniently introduced for no yet-given reason earlier this season.
I'm going to speculate that the time jumping stopped when Locke pushed the wheel back on its axis. At that moment the Time Hoppers were in Dharma time and they have been stuck there ever since. We really don't have a clue how long but I'm betting on the same length of time that Locke spent away from the island -- so a few weeks not a few years.
quote:But the real question is, why would this be the case? Why would the island resurrect Christian differently than Locke?
I don't think he's Christian Shepard in the same way that Locke is still Locke.
quote:By-the-by, which one? I love that game!
I just got to a new 'Age' in Myst
quote:Does Sawyer see Kate's horse? i don't remember that. I think Sayid sees Walt one of the times Shannon sees him. Boone had visions but only after locke drugged him. not sure about anyone else.
Am I forgetting anyone? Because depending on who/ when, it would totally blow my theory out of the water.
quote:That's a really good speculation Tres.
My suspicion is that Jacob has been, in some sense, held hostage by both Widmore and Ben as they fight over the island. I think that's what Jacob meant when he asked Locke to "help me", which originally inspired Ben to kill Locke the first time. Something about the idea of Locke working directly with Jacob bothers Ben. And I think Jacob's intention in sending Locke to Hawking was in part that she give him information that would ultimately allow Locke to undo whatever Ben is doing. And I think when Ben realized Locke had been sent to Hawking, Ben realized what Jacob was doing. So, by killing Locke, he figured out a way to still save the island and get everyone to go back without allowing Locke to meet Hawking.
quote:ditto here. Though I wouldn't necessarily bet on all the details being right, I think you're thinking along the right lines. Great idea about the incident. I had completely forgotten that an "incident" caused a leak in the containment of the electromagnetic anomaly.
I agree that time stopped jumping, but I'd bet they've been there for about a year or two. I also bet we'll find out that Daniel has spent that time trying to figure out how to get themselves back to the right time period. And I bet that it is something that's going to require Jack, Kate, and Hurley to be there - which is why they had to be the ones that go back in time. And I also bet that Daniel's plan is somehow going to spark the electromagnetic "incident" at the Hatch that ultimately led the Dharma Initiative to require the numbers to be entered every so many minutes. And, perhaps, perhaps, Daniel's plan might also involve the nuclear bomb which was conveniently introduced for no yet-given reason earlier this season.
quote:Kind of along the lines of Doctor Who psychic paper or a Harry Potter universe boggert.
I'm theorizing that that's because Jacob only takes one shape at a time, or only appears to one person at a time, in a shape that's right for that person in some way
quote:The Mechanical Age.
Originally posted by Leonide:
quote:By-the-by, which one? I love that game!
I just got to a new 'Age' in Myst
Just acquired a copy of the Masterpiece (?) edition on Wednesday and got to bust it out last night. I started playing the original Myst when still in high school, but when I went off to college never finished it. My parents held onto it at home. *snap* So, yeah, I'm so excited to be playing it again, that it works at all, and that I made it to another age in one night! It's only a start, but it's something!
quote:Contradictory loops may have formed. That's where I wanted to go with my argument, but I didn't know how to say it. Someone dying while they still needed to have an effect on the future or past would be a contradictory loop. That's why Micheal couldn't die before he did on the Kahana. But this implies that something will have an effect on his past, maybe an encounter with Jin now that Jin is in the past.
I really don't like the idea of causal loops and to be honest, don't completely understand them.
What about anything going on makes it a loop? Or implies these events keep repeating themselves in time? They only do that if you look at the events from the perspective of "Locke shows up on the island in the 50s and does stuff. then 50 years later he crashes on the island. then he goes back in time. then 50 years later he crashes". But that's only a trick of how we've been shown the events, the order in which we've been told this story. in my mind events in time happen. and that's it. they happen once and only once. how does someone get stuck in a causal loop? are they consciously aware of the iterations? so their bodies are always knew but their consciousnesses are old?
lets take the time jumping losties for example. let say they get Back to the Future™ and live out the rest of their days on the Island. So from their subjective experience, the lived their lives, crashed on the island, jumped around in time, got back to their present and lived the rest of their lives. from the island's point of view, these people appear on it at various points in time from the 1950s to the 2000s, and then at some point crash on the island. stay for 100 days. disappear. reappear. then live out their lives. sure, this is a hypothetical, and not likely where the show will go, but what bout these events indicate a loop that iterates?
I guess i want to separate the idea of a causal loop from the idea of iterations. I don't think a causal loop would imply that. I get that by time jumping their subjective future selves affect their present selves. Actions that happen in the past are integral to bringing about the future even though they are caused by these people in their subjective future. Here's some stuff from wikipedia:
quote:
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A predestination paradox, also called either a causal loop, or a causality loop and (less frequently) either a closed loop or closed time loop, is a paradox of time travel that is often used as a convention in science fiction. It exists when a time traveller is caught in a loop of events that "predestines" or "predates" them to travel back in time. Because of the possibility of influencing the past while time traveling, one way of explaining why history does not change is by saying that whatever has happened was meant to happen. A time traveller attempting to alter the past in this model, intentionally or not, would only be fulfilling their role in creating history as we know it, not changing it. Or that the time-traveler's personal knowledge of history already includes their future travels to their own experience of the past. Effectively, it means this: the time traveller is in the past, which means they were in the past before. Therefore, their presence is vital to the future, and they do something that causes the future to occur the same way that their knowledge of the future has already happened. It is very closely related to the ontological paradox and usually occurs at the same time.
The predestination paradox is in some ways the opposite of the grandfather paradox, the famous example of the traveller killing their own grandfather before his parent is conceived, thereby precluding his own travel to the past by canceling his own existence.
In physics, the Novikov self-consistency principle proposes that contradictory causal loops cannot form, but that consistent ones can. In a physical sense, a self-consistent causal loop of this kind is not actually a paradox because it produces a logically consistent result rather than a contradictory one. It is only perceived as a paradox because it goes against conventional expectations and assumptions about causality.
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Emphasis mine. In this way I agree with a causal loop theory. But not an iteration theory. Iterations from my point of view are impossible.
quote:Yeah, me, too.
Originally posted by Leonide:
also love Sawyer + Juliette
quote:But Sawyer et al have been searching the island grid by grid for three years. If Rose/Bernard et al were on the island in that time period it seems highly unlikely that they would not have found them. So I'm guessing that they were either killed, died of jumping sickness or for some reason did not end up in the same time period after the last jump.
We still haven't seen a peep from the other Losties(Rose, Bernard, etc...) since the time jumping began. We can only assume they're in the 70s now as well. But what are they doing?
quote:Well, we know that Ben and Locke were both born off Island. For Ben we know both of his parents. Emily is his mom who dies during childbirth and Roger is his dad who he ends up coming to the Island with Ben as a boy at Horace's invitation. Locke's mom is also named Emily, and I'm not sure if we're supposed to assume Cooper is Locke's biological father or if that was all one big scam or not. Both Ben and Locke were born in the 6th or 7th month of pregnancy, the difference being that Locke's mom lived.
Good food for thought. I kept thinking "no, the baby is too young to be Ben or Locke." I did speculate that it could be Jacob, but didn't really afford it much credence.
quote:Given your great ideas you couldn't figure that out? Well, not like she couldn't just time travel as a young child.... hey... wait. Yes she can, all they need to do is slip the wheel again, which I find plausible.
Originally posted by Strider:
She looks to be about 4 years old in 1974 which would put her birth around 1970. A 10 year difference is pretty hefty. So what's going on?
quote:Except that they mentioned that she missed the submarine to go to the mainland to have the baby, meaning the problem does exist and that this baby has somehow defied the particular "rules" of the island. Which actually makes the baby all the more special.
Originally posted by Strider:
We know that Amy gave birth to a son in 1977. This tells us one very important thing. There was no problem with pregnant women on the Island at this point in time. I've always speculated that the problem with pregnancies had something to do with Ben. Ben was born during his mother's seventh month of pregnancy and she died giving birth to him, no women on the Island live past their seventh month of pregnancy. Ben may or may not be on the Island yet as a boy in 1977, but even if he is, he definitely doesn't have the close connection to the Island that he does as an adult(leader of the others, communicating with Jacob).
One other aspect of this is worth speculating about. They didn't tell us the name of the son that Horace and Amy have. I'll give anyone 5-1 odds that the baby's name is Jacob. It just seems right, and add to that the fact that Horace is the one that built Jacob's cabin in the first place. Another connection, but one that may be stretching things a bit more, is that Horace is the one that found Roger Linus and helped him when Ben was born, it seems like there may be some sort of important connection there as well(between Jacob and Ben). I never quite figured out if it was an unconscious thing or a conscious thing, but something about Ben's history and his connection to the Island and control of Jacob I always figured was relevant to the deaths of the pregnant women.
IF this connection turns out to be true, an interesting twist on this is that Juliet would be the person who delivers Jacob, who is then later brought to the Island to solve the mystery of the dying mothers which is caused by this relationship/connection between Jacob and Ben.
Also, in terms of bible references, Benjamin is the son of Jacob. That's one connection but a more interesting story is the one between Jacob and his twin brother Esau who are eternally struggling against each other. Jacob is the more simple man and Esau is the hunter. Jacob ends up stealing Esau's birthright by tricking their father Isaac. Anyway, i won't dwell on this, I doubt there's a literal connection, but I thought it was somewhat interesting.
ooh, I just had an interesting thought. Which Losties are currently in 1977? Sawyer, Juliet, Jin, Faraday, Miles and now Jack, Kate, and Hurley. Let's say I'm right about the baby being Jacob. Depending on how long they stay stuck in the past, Jacob may know these people as a child. EVERYONE on Jacob's list is now existing in 1977 Dharma time. Strike out Faraday and Miles since they're not on the Island when the list is made. And take out Juliet since she's an Other at that point in time. And you're left with Jin being the only Lostie in 1977 that doesn't end up on Jacob's list. Interesting stuff, though all dependent on the assumption that Horace and Amy's son is Jacob.
quote:As to the deal about going off to the mainland to have babies, I honestly don't think it's a big problem. I think it's more a matter of, okay, we don't have the medical know-how here to handle delivery should anything go wrong, so it's better to send expecting mothers to where there are actual obstetricians available as opposed to doctors in other fields. So, the better doctor thing you mention, Strider, I'm with you on that.
I'm reading this Lost thing, they think the statue was Horus the Egyptian god b/c a) there's a guy named Horace and b) "Horus' main rival was a god named Seth. In The Bible, Seth is the father of Enos. And Enos was the pseudonym used by Miles.
quote:I'm still sticking to my theory that Daniel is working (maybe at the Hatch) to figure out how to time travel back to their normal time. I think he's got a plan to get them all back.
**Just like to point out, since no one's mentioned it so far, that we haven't SEEN Daniel at all in 1977! We've seen Miles, Sawyer, Juliette, and Jin. That's it. Where's Farraday gone? Kidnapped baby Charlotte and displaced her in time? Gone crazy? Died?
quote:or maybe by having their little picnic outside the perimeter of the fence that was already breaking the truce. It seems an out of proportion response to stepping outside of bounds, but we don't exactly know the nature of the truce and i suspect by being where they were, Paul and Amy broke it.
Why did the Hostiles shoot Paul in the first place, and Why wasn't explaining that to Richard enough of a reason not to hand over Paul's body? Put another way, why didn't they explain the fact that those two Hostiles broke the truce first to Richard as an excuse for not handing over the body?"
quote:It took me a minute to get the significance of that. At first I was thinking, "Yeah, we've seen him in the middle of the Dharma people." Then I realized that '77 was the three years later. *sheepish grin* You're right, we haven't seen him during that later year.
**Just like to point out, since no one's mentioned it so far, that we haven't SEEN Daniel at all in 1977!
quote:It was touched upon, I believe.
m I remembered correctly that we speculated that Daniel is involved in causing the incident to occur as part of the attempt(possibly successful) to get them back to their proper time?
quote:Not precisely true. When they stopped time hopping (1974) they were standing by the well and the Orchid station clearly had not yet been constructed. But in the season premier, we did see Daniel in Dharma clothes in the Orchid station while it was under construction. So even though we didn't see Daniel in last nights episode we have seen him working with e thDharma initiative at a time that might not have been 1977 but was definitely later than 1974.
quote:It took me a minute to get the significance of that. At first I was thinking, "Yeah, we've seen him in the middle of the Dharma people." Then I realized that '77 was the three years later. *sheepish grin* You're right, we haven't seen him during that later year.
**Just like to point out, since no one's mentioned it so far, that we haven't SEEN Daniel at all in 1977!
quote:We did see him last night. They went back and found him staring at the ground where Charlotte's body had been. Then, he was at the table when Jin asked about the flashes stopping. Daniel said they had (he kept repeating himself), and then Charlotte trotted by in all her four-year-old glory.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Not precisely true. When they stopped time hopping (1974) they were standing by the well and the Orchid station clearly had not yet been constructed. But in the season premier, we did see Daniel in Dharma clothes in the Orchid station while it was under construction. So even though we didn't see Daniel in last nights episode we have seen him working with e thDharma initiative at a time that might not have been 1977 but was definitely later than 1974.
quote:It took me a minute to get the significance of that. At first I was thinking, "Yeah, we've seen him in the middle of the Dharma people." Then I realized that '77 was the three years later. *sheepish grin* You're right, we haven't seen him during that later year.
**Just like to point out, since no one's mentioned it so far, that we haven't SEEN Daniel at all in 1977!
quote:I meant we didn't see him in the 1977 segments of last nights show -- we did however see him in the season opener working for the Dharma initiative at a point that was definitely later than 1974. Whether or not that scene was as late as 1977 is certainly up for question but it was unquestionably more than 2 weeks after last nights 1974 scenes and he was definitely working with Dharma at that point.
We did see him last night. They went back and found him staring at the ground where Charlotte's body had been. Then, he was at the table when Jin asked about the flashes stopping. Daniel said they had (he kept repeating himself), and then Charlotte trotted by in all her four-year-old glory.
When I don't believe we saw him (would have to rewatch) is in all the "Three Years Later" scenes. It's like Leonide said.
quote:Hmmm... There's a thought.
Originally posted by Achilles:
Perhaps he moves the wheel and winds up teleported away....
quote:J.J. Abhrams has a TED talk about the nature of mystery. If any of you think ALL the questions will be answered come the end of this series, you're deluding yourselves. I kind of prefer it that way too. Leave us some mystery to talk about years from now!
Originally posted by Leonide:
In fact the answers, by-and-large, seem to be slightly disappointing. Maybe the best thing about the show is the possiblity of awesome, not the actuality of it.
quote:Trac, this is true, but this happens approx 10-15 years after he first meets Richard. And I think his hatred for his father made it much easier to do what he did. An interesting bit is that when Ben comes across Horace after the Purge, he closes Horace's eyes, giving him a level of respect that he doesn't show to any of the other Dharma people.
Tresopax, your mention of Widmore, Ben and the Others just jogged my memory. When Ben is befriended by the Others, what does he do? He triggers the gas on the Island and wipes out Dharma. Brilliant.
quote:And night. I'm sure it'll turn out to be meaningless, but it was obviously a conscious decision to not show him and I'm just wondering why.
I mean, the 1977 stuff takes place over what, the course of a day?
Do they expect that we'll have forgotten about seeing Daniel in the Orchid?
quote:What if it turned out that Ben and John were brothers (or rather half brothers)? John's mother (Emily) was only a teenager when John was born, that would have put her in her mid 20's when Ben was born. So its definitely possible that the two Emilys could be the same person.
Well, we know that Ben and Locke were both born off Island. For Ben we know both of his parents. Emily is his mom who dies during childbirth and Roger is his dad who he ends up coming to the Island with Ben as a boy at Horace's invitation. Locke's mom is also named Emily, and I'm not sure if we're supposed to assume Cooper is Locke's biological father or if that was all one big scam or not. Both Ben and Locke were born in the 6th or 7th month of pregnancy, the difference being that Locke's mom lived.
quote:Were all the people that Juliet was brought to help Others (Natives or Hostiles who wiped out the Dharma initiative)? Do we know whether other women who came to the island have had the same problem giving birth to children conceived there? I know that Juliet was concerned about Sun, but I'm just can't recall if she had the opportunity to work with anyone else who wasn't an Other.
Originally posted by Strider:
if whatever affects all the pregnant women is around in the 70s, it's vastly different from what Juliet is brought to the Island for and what we're led to believe is happening in the 2000s.
quote:Perhaps her possession of the ankh allows her to successfully have a child on the island when nobody else can....
Also, I wonder if there is more significance to the ankh Amy removed from her husband's (Paul's) body. It is the Egyptian symbol for eternal life and was being carried by the Egyptian statue. I wonder if Paul wearing the ankh in some way violated the truce agreement hence provoking the attack. That might also explain why Amy took it off his body secretly before allow Richard to take the body.
quote:I just thought I'd add a small correction. They didn't say Amy had missed the submarine. They said she was supposed to be on the submarine on Tuesday which could easily have been the coming Tuesday and not the preceding Tuesday.
Except that they mentioned that she missed the submarine to go to the mainland to have the baby, meaning the problem does exist and that this baby has somehow defied the particular "rules" of the island. Which actually makes the baby all the more special.
quote:That is an excellent point. Bet they didn't think that through so well.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
What I really don't get is why they would wait until 2 weeks before delivery to put women on a submarine back to the mainland. Back in the 70s, before ultrasound, due dates weren't that accurate and submarines weren't that fast. A woman within two weeks of her due date should have been expected to deliver at any time. It seems like it would have been extremely risky to put a woman within two weeks of delivery on a Submarine, likely for several days. We worry about women that close to delivery getting on airplanes for several hours.
quote:
He says that pregnant women usually go back to the mainland to deliver but doesn't say why. So I don't know that we should assume it's because women die on the island. What's more, the calamity that affects the pregnant women on the Island affects by killing them before their third trimester, taking effect some time in the second trimester. Amy's baby was born only about two weeks early which would mean if whatever affects all the pregnant women is around in the 70s, it's vastly different from what Juliet is brought to the Island for and what we're led to believe is happening in the 2000s. I think it'd be safer to assume there's a different reason for them to travel back to the mainland, like maybe better doctors? Though I guess that just begs the question, why don't they have any competent doctors? And why would they send women 9 months pregnant out on submarines?
quote:
Maybe part of the truce is that Dharma people can't give birth on the Island. Maybe the Natives have some reason for not wanting any children born on the Island?
quote:Ben's mother died birthing him, and John's mother was alive long after this. She helped Anthony Cooper scam John out of his kidney.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:What if it turned out that Ben and John were brothers (or rather half brothers)? John's mother (Emily) was only a teenager when John was born, that would have put her in her mid 20's when Ben was born. So its definitely possible that the two Emilys could be the same person.
Well, we know that Ben and Locke were both born off Island. For Ben we know both of his parents. Emily is his mom who dies during childbirth and Roger is his dad who he ends up coming to the Island with Ben as a boy at Horace's invitation. Locke's mom is also named Emily, and I'm not sure if we're supposed to assume Cooper is Locke's biological father or if that was all one big scam or not. Both Ben and Locke were born in the 6th or 7th month of pregnancy, the difference being that Locke's mom lived.
quote:Wasn't it suggested that the woman involved in the scam was someone hired by Cooper and not actually John's mother?
Ben's mother died birthing him, and John's mother was alive long after this. She helped Anthony Cooper scam John out of his kidney.
quote:no, it was his real mom. Though she ends up confessing to being part of the scam for money.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Wasn't it suggested that the woman involved in the scam was someone hired by Cooper and not actually John's mother?
Ben's mother died birthing him, and John's mother was alive long after this. She helped Anthony Cooper scam John out of his kidney.
quote:Are you sure about that? I'm almost certain I remember her confessing that she wasn't actually his mother she had just been paid to play the part. If she is really his mother, it does raise the question of why John was so obsessed with connecting with his father and yet had so little interest in his mother.
Originally posted by Strider:
quote:no, it was his real mom. Though she ends up confessing to being part of the scam for money.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Wasn't it suggested that the woman involved in the scam was someone hired by Cooper and not actually John's mother?
Ben's mother died birthing him, and John's mother was alive long after this. She helped Anthony Cooper scam John out of his kidney.
quote:
About ten years before the crash, a younger Locke works in a discount superstore. He demonstrates the children's game Mouse Trap to a boy, saying it was his favorite game and that he used to play it with his "brother." A mysterious older woman appears to be watching him in the store. When Locke approaches her, she asks him where the footballs are.
Later Locke sees her in the parking lot. He starts to chase her and is knocked over by a car. Locke gets back up, catches her, and confronts her. She reveals that she is his birth mother, Emily Annabeth Locke. John inquires about his natural father, but she tells him that he has no father, and that he was "immaculately conceived" (a common misuse of the term).
Locke hires a private investigator, Frainey, to find information on his father and mother. The investigators tell him that his mother has been committed in the past because she had schizophrenia. She was admitted several times to the Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute. When Locke asks about his father, Frainey is hesitant. He says these things are not meant to be and gives Locke a choice to find his father or not. Locke says he wants to meet his father, and the private investigator gives him the address of his father, Anthony Cooper.
Locke goes to his father's affluent home, where he is admitted and welcomed. Cooper claims that he did not know he had a son because Emily told him she was not going to have a baby. Cooper claims he found out about Locke a year later, when Emily asked him for more money.
Cooper appears to take Locke under his wing, taking him hunting several times. Arriving early one day, Locke sees that his father is on dialysis. Cooper mentions that he will need a kidney transplant, but is pessimistic about his chances on the waiting list. Locke volunteers to give his father one of his kidneys. Just before the kidney transplant, Locke says that "this was meant to be", and Cooper tells his son that he will see him after the operation.
After the transplant, Locke wakes up in the hospital to find that his father has gone home for private care. His mother appears and reveals that his father concocted a scheme to convince Locke to give up his kidney. Locke pulls himself out of the hospital bed, and drives to his father's home, where the once-friendly guard is not allowed to let him inside. Locke drives away at the guard's pained insistence, and screams at the betrayal.
quote:YES! Jin IS Luke Skywalker! "Used to bulls-eye koi in fishing boat back home - they not much bigger than two meters!"
Sun and Jin are actually brother and sister.
The whole show takes place a long time ago in a galaxy far far away
quote:i know, i was having some fun, and I think Leonide took my comments in a playful manner.
To be fair Strider, there is far more reason to believe that the woman who presented herself as Locke's mother was lying about it than any of the things you presented.
quote:My response started out specifically addressing that, but ended up being a pretty detailed exploration of that episode:
I also need to watch 'The Constant' again. It was just Desmond's mind going back in time and taking over his past body, right?
quote:(italics mine)
Originally posted by Strider:
Is the Island accessing these memories? Are these pasts being "created" by the Island? And has desmond's experience with the hatch altered the nature of his "flashbacks" allowing him to consciously know he is his future self flashing back to his past? Basically, was this a flashback? Or was it a time travel? or was it neither? was it some sort of weird interaction between Desmond and the Island due to the hatch explosion? The most interesting part of all this was his conversation with Mrs. Hawking where he tries to buy the ring. Was Mrs. Hawking always the person who sold him the ring? Or does she only exist in this "flashback"? Does Mrs. Hawking remember their encounter? Desmond tries to "change" his future by making different decisions in his past, but Mrs. Hawking doesn't let him, saying the universe course corrects itself, and that he HAS to go to Island
quote:
Are the flashbacks just a mechanism the show uses to give us insights into these character's pasts, or is something more interesting going on? Is the Island accessing these memories? Are these pasts being "created" by the Island?
![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!quote:If the do a Dark Tower like ending it could suck horrible. but if they have there own that is set up and made well, it could be great. Let's hope for a non-cop-out ending.
Originally posted by Strider:
I only have one fear. There are tons of references and parallels between Stephen King's works in general, and the Dark Tower Series in particular(which itself references and incorporates many other of Stephen King's own works, as well as much literary reference and popular culture). For those that know how Stephen King eventually "explained" the deep mysteries of the absolutely amazing world he created, there is a small part of me that is terrified Lost will go down that same route. Not to the extent Stephen King did, but enough that many fans will consider their explanations a cop out. So far they haven't let me down. But the infusion of the mythological, literary, and pop culture references, while awesome, could possibly end up being disappointed if these connections to the Dark Tower are more substantial than other references.
edit - i'm trying to avoid dark tower spoilers because I DO think the first five books of that series are absolutely wonderful, and Stephen King had me so hooked that while I was continuously cursing him out throughout the last two books, I couldn't put them down because i cared that much about the characters, and I'd hate to spoil the series for anyone interested in reading it. I never really enjoyed Stephen King before reading this series.
quote:*snerf*
Originally posted by Uprooted:
Hmm. Sawyer telling Jack off for being too impulsive and not enough of a thinker. Interesting. But I liked it!
quote:I thought Wolves of Calla was awesome. I'm surprised you didn't enjoy that one. My least favorite(of the first 5) was The Drawing of the Three actually. Like Lost, i like the mysteries of the Island the most. Drawing of the Three was like the off Island episodes these past two seasons of Lost. It was lots of setup and character building, and all I wanted was to get back to Mid-World. Though I will say, I appreciated the rich character development later.
Originally posted by Puffy Treat:
King lost me in Wizard and Glass. I kept reading, just to see things through. But I stopped enjoying.
quote:I actually LIKED the ending that King warns you about. I had predicted and expected it from the very beginning and was pleased to see it. It was the two books leading up to it that disappointed me.
Originally posted by Xann.:
If the do a Dark Tower like ending it could suck horrible. but if they have there own that is set up and made well, it could be great. Let's hope for a non-cop-out ending.
quote:I don't remember you calling anything in particular, just wondering where he was. I think Tres's theory is probably the most accurate. That he's been off working with Cheng, possibly in the Hatch, or at least on the main Island. Here are some thoughts I wrote to someone recently about Faraday after some of the stuff Tres wrote. We had been discussing the possibility that Faraday was the "smart young man"(Mrs. Hawking's words) who figured out how to find the Island by looking for "when" it would be instead of "where". As well as the origin of certain information in his notebook that seems to pertain to Dharma Iniative specific things.
Originally posted by Leonide:
Also, TOTALLY CALLED DANIEL. Just sayin'.
quote:This was a quick not very well thought out ramble, but I think it might be circling around the truth. Depending on how the show handles certain things about the notebook i could be happy with this. There is a problem of origin with the notebook in this case, it has to do with the ontological paradox, which is related to the predestination paradox i talked about a few pages back. From wikipedia:
here are some brief thoughts. the man who figures out how to find the island must be off the island right? working with the original dharma initiative before they ever come to the island. this would be late 60s right? The original faraday is probably not even born at this point. and for faraday's notebook to be from the island, it would have gotten off the island somehow too, right? so here's my super quick speculation. faraday is on the island from 1974 to 1977. we have seen him at an undisclosed time near the wheel. we didn't see him this last episode in the 1977 scenes, only the 1974 scenes. i think faraday is trying to find a way back to their own time. i think he's working in the hatch. i think faraday is the one who causes the "incident" to occur and it has something to do with his plan to get the losties back to their present time. I think he turns the wheel and sacrifices himself, leaving the island and transporting himself to the mainland in order to jump the losties back to their own time. he ends up in the 1960s and helps dharma find the island to ensure that all the things happen the way they're supposed to happen. maybe that's how the military pictures end up at the lamp post station, because he takes them from the island and brings them with him. and at some point leaves the notebook for his younger future self. question is, what comes of this older version of faraday? where does he end up?
quote:A relevant example would be the Compass. Richard gives Locke the compass in the future, which he then gives to Richard in the Past(which Richard gives to Locke in the future, etc…). So where did the compass come from in the first place? There is no origin for it, it exists only this “causal loop”. This is a very real problem and I have no answer for it. I'm not very happy with the wikipedia article on this because it implies a "loop" is occurring, which it is, but most people take loop to mean a repeating loop, which is what we were discussing the other week. The important thing in my mind to distinguish is the difference between cause and effect being self contained within a paradoxical set of events, and the idea that these events repeat in time. And looping adds the unnecessarily problem of breaking the second law of thermodynamics. when you get rid of the idea that these events loop in time, then you get rid of that paradox. the object doesn't need to age with each iteration, because there are no iterations.
An ontological paradox is a paradox of time travel that questions the existence and creation of information and objects that travel in time. It is very closely related to the predestination paradox and usually occurs at the same time.
a scenario can occur where items or information are passed from the future to the past, which then become the same items or information that are subsequently passed back. This not only creates a loop, but a situation where these items have no discernible origin. Physical items are even more problematic than pieces of information, since they should ordinarily age and increase in entropy according to the Second law of thermodynamics. But if they age by any nonzero amount at each cycle, they cannot be the same item to be sent back in time, creating a contradiction unless it is a reproduced item such as a seed, spore, etc.
Examples:
* On his 30th birthday, a man who wishes to build a time machine is visited by a future version of himself. This future self explains to him that he should not worry about designing the time machine, as he has done it in the future. The man receives the schematics from his future self and starts building the time machine. Time passes until he finally completes the time machine. He then uses it to travel back in time to his 30th birthday, where he gives the schematics to his past self, closing the loop. The problem is, the schematics could have never been written by anyone in the first place.
* A young physicist receives an old, tattered, disintegrating notebook containing various information about future events from his future self who has sent it back to him via a time machine; he copies it over into a new notebook before it deteriorates so badly as to be unusable. Over the years the predictions of the notebook come true, allowing him to become wealthy enough to fund his own research; which results in the development of a time machine, which he uses to send the now old, tattered, disintegrating notebook back to his former self. The notebook is not a paradox (it has an end and a beginning; the beginning where he bought it, the end where he threw it out after he copied the information), but the information is.
quote:*goes back* I guess you're right! I think I must have had that speculative conversation off-board. Anyway, I did call that there was more significance to them not showing him in the "Three Years Later" episode beyond "they just didn't run into him that day"
I don't remember you calling anything in particular, just wondering where he was.
quote:They seem a little cliquey anyway, the Dharma folks.
Originally posted by Strider:
Given that Cheng doesn't seem to really be around the main Dharma contingent normally, it might not be that big of a deal that Miles hasn't run into his baby self yet.
quote:Yep.
oh wait, did you mean wouldn't Cheng have bumped into adult Miles by now?
quote:Perfectly creepy is a good way to put it, and Sayid's reaction was pretty great. And yes, I have to think that Ben remembered the Losties when he first met them. And I wondered the same thing about Ethan -- how did he survive the Dharma purge and become an Other? I'm also still waiting for the story of how Ben ended up with Rousseau's daughter.
Originally posted by Strider:
How much does Ben know? Does adult Ben remember meeting all the Losties in 1970s Dharma time? And isn't little Ben so perfectly creepy? It's like he's gotten more Ben like as he's gotten older!
quote:I just can't keep up with you or Lost. When have we seen Cheng with a prosthetic? Was it evident on the orientation films?
Cheng interacted with Jack on orientation day and still had both good arms. What happens to make him lose an arm and need a prosthetic?
quote:I just assumed that the story Rousseau told was pretty much true, that the others stole her baby, and Linus adopted her as his own.
I'm also still waiting for the story of how Ben ended up with Rousseau's daughter.
quote:Watch his left arm:
I just can't keep up with you or Lost. When have we seen Cheng with a prosthetic? Was it evident on the orientation films?
quote:As far as I know, other than Sun, Juliet has never worked with a non-other pregnant woman. But I think I attempted to address the root of your question elsewhere in this thread. As far as I can tell there wasn't a problem with pregnancies on the Island at this point in time. YES, the dharma people ship pregnant women off Island to deliver their babies, but they send them during their last two weeks of pregnancy, whereas the pregnant women die BEFORE their third trimester, with problems beginning at the beginning of the second trimester. This would indicate that there's a different reason to take 8 and half month pregnant women off an Island by means of a submarine, since whatever ales pregnant women later in the timeline would have killed Amy months before she delivered Ethan. My speculation is that this has to do with the truce that the Dharma folks have with the Natives, to not deliver any babies on Island. My speculation about the deaths involves Ben's relationship to the Island, and Jacob, and the fact that his mother died during her 7th month of pregnancy, but that's also speculation.
However, I still want to hear some feedback to a question I raised on the last page. Prior to delivering Ethan, had Juliet ever worked with a pregnant woman (other than Sun) who was not an Other? Was the difference in carrying the baby to term and surviving the birth because something about the Others/Hostiles prevents this, which does not apply to Dharma Initiative people or Losties?
![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
quote:I don't see how anyone predicts that ending... but I didn't mean that Dark Tower had a bad ending, I loved the ending. It is just really easy to have an ending like that, that feels like a lazy way to finish a story.
Originally posted by Strider:
[
quote:I actually LIKED the ending that King warns you about. I had predicted and expected it from the very beginning and was pleased to see it. It was the two books leading up to it that disappointed me.
Originally posted by Xann.:
If the do a Dark Tower like ending it could suck horrible. but if they have there own that is set up and made well, it could be great. Let's hope for a non-cop-out ending.
quote:I suggested the resurrection possibility a few pages back:
Originally posted by Tresopax:
But what if it wasn't jealousy at all? What if Ben killed Locke hoping that Locke would be resurrected?
quote:This would be in line with the current episode, if Ben was really murdered by Sayid. Or even if Ben just thinks he died and was resurrected.
I think Ben planned all along to kill Locke. I don't think it was a last minute decision: the Jin/Sun thing is not enough impetus, and the Eloise thing happened too quickly -- I don't think Ben is that quick on the trigger.
My new theory is that Locke couldn't be allowed to kill himself...he needed to be murdered. Ben needed Locke dead as a substitute for Christian, but he also needed him not to have died by his own hand -- the frantic way Ben bashed in the door to stop Locke's suicide indicates that it wasn't all for show. He really couldn't afford to lose Locke that way.
Perhaps the island does resurrect, and resurrect in totality (aka Locke returning exactly as Locke, and not as some Monkey's-Paw-creepy-zombified Locke) but only depending on the manner of death?
quote:I thought it was interesting that even in childhood, Sayid's "ruthlessness" was motivated by compassion for his brother. He wasn't a kid who took pleasure in killing or who thought killing a chicken was fun and games. He was a kid who was capable of doing what was necessary, and motivated to do it by a desire to protect someone he cared about. I think that's why I like Sayid's character so much. Unlike Ben, he isn't able to kill without remorse. He is able to do what he deems necessary, but he pays a great price for it.
Along those lines, while I was tickled to get a "flaskback" to Sayid's childhood -- I'm amazed the producers/writers felt that Sayid's natural ruthlessness was something we needed to be reminded of, and the explanation of his current actions in light of his childhood ones seemed forced.
quote:agreed. i appreciated that aspect of it too.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:I thought it was interesting that even in childhood, Sayid's "ruthlessness" was motivated by compassion for his brother. He wasn't a kid who took pleasure in killing or who thought killing a chicken was fun and games. He was a kid who was capable of doing what was necessary, and motivated to do it by a desire to protect someone he cared about. I think that's why I like Sayid's character so much. Unlike Ben, he isn't able to kill without remorse. He is able to do what he deems necessary, but he pays a great price for it.
Along those lines, while I was tickled to get a "flaskback" to Sayid's childhood -- I'm amazed the producers/writers felt that Sayid's natural ruthlessness was something we needed to be reminded of, and the explanation of his current actions in light of his childhood ones seemed forced.
quote:My initial response to the first kid was that they'd done a particularly poor job of picking a kid to play young Sayid. As soon as the second kid showed up, I knew he was Sayid and not the first kid.
Originally posted by Lisa:
Actually, I thought the first kid was going to turn out to be Sayid.
Maybe getting shot by Sayid is what turned Ben into a full-blown psychopath.
quote:He he...
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
My initial response to the first kid was that they'd done a particularly poor job of picking a kid to play young Sayid.
quote:And not the killing of his father?
Maybe getting shot by Sayid is what turned Ben into a full-blown psychopath.
quote:Totally agreed. My complaint wasn't about the particulars of the flashback, but about the fact that it didn't tie into the other flashbacks in a meaningful way, and then the placement within this particular episode made it seem like it illuminated his reasoning for doing so, which I don't know that it did.
thought it was interesting that even in childhood, Sayid's "ruthlessness" was motivated by compassion for his brother. He wasn't a kid who took pleasure in killing or who thought killing a chicken was fun and games. He was a kid who was capable of doing what was necessary, and motivated to do it by a desire to protect someone he cared about. I think that's why I like Sayid's character so much. Unlike Ben, he isn't able to kill without remorse. He is able to do what he deems necessary, but he pays a great price for it.
quote:I think he killed his father after he was already a psycho.
Originally posted by Leonide:
quote:And not the killing of his father?
Maybe getting shot by Sayid is what turned Ben into a full-blown psychopath.
quote:Heh. Actually, I was just chatting with a coworker about Lost, and the obvious fact came up that Sawyer and Co. have to have learned some things about the Dharma initiative after three years among the "Dharmans" and that we really want to know those things! As viewers, we're used to knowing what these original characters know, even if it's not a whole lot and/or just to be freaked out. Now, we've got people we've followed around for four seasons who obviously have more of an inside scoop and haven't shared yet!
Originally posted by Armoth:
Also, the Dharmans seem like a buncha losers. Why do the Others take so long to wipe em out?
quote:Well, we've had the before too though... I mean Ben knows about as much as anyone.
Now, we've got people we've followed around for four seasons who obviously have more of an inside scoop and haven't shared yet!
quote:Which begs the question "What does it mean to be one of the others".
What I thought more interesting was the part of Richard's comment about innocence and always being one of them.
quote:I found it funny and frustrating at the same time, but yes, I realize that it was written for people who unlike myself haven't been reading and watching sci-fi for their entire lives and are therefore new to the whole time travel thing.
Originally posted by Traceria:
I thought the Hurley/Miles conversation pretty funny, too, and commented that it was totally written for viewers like my mom, who have a super hard time wrapping their heads around any sort of time travel stuff.
quote:Exactly. Memory loss is the universal plot hole filler.
The comment by Richard about Ben forgetting everything was interesting. Seems like a writers' copout for the paradox they've created.
quote:For a moment I felt as though I was watching Smallville. I didn't like that feeling.
Originally posted by neo-dragon:
Exactly. Memory loss is the universal plot hole filler.
quote:Yeah, i have the same questions Uprooted. And i agree, I think it's a huge cop out to have him not remember any of this. Not only that, but i was really liking the idea that Ben was aware of all this stuff when he meets the Losties in the future. That when the plane crashes he needs a manifest not because he's shocked, but because he wants to make sure that those people are on the plane. That all the stuff he does to Sayid is part of getting back at him for trying to kill him. A really ironic part of all this is that Sayid manages to shoot Ben and then torture him before Ben actually does anything bad to Sayid!
I think it was "he won't remember any of this." Any of what? He certainly didn't lose the memory of his entire childhood. His memory of being taken to the Others for saving? Everything from being shot on?
quote:I love it...how fantastically brilliant. Though I would never call Ben crazy(at least not to his face). I think Richard is interested in Ben because Richard thinks he's special. He was shown a vision of his mother by the Island and Richard obviously places some importance.
Originally posted by Leonide:
I'm interested in the idea that it is the process involved in saving Ben's life that maybe made him crazy. Why is Richard so interested in preserving Ben's life?
quote:I thought the same thing. Have we brought up the possibility before of Penny and Daniel being brother and sister, and Hawking and Widmore each taking one of them when they leave the Island. Though, by the time Ben is older and can oust Widmore, Penny should be much older and know all about this Island. Same with Faraday.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I thought the comments about "Elli and Charles" were interesting. Presumable the unnamed other was referring to Eloise Hawking and Charles Whidmore who apparently are recognized as leaders by the others. It suggests that these two were still on the island in 1977, which is interesting since Penny and Daniel seem too old to have been born post 1977.
quote:Well, here's the thing. Ben is definitely messed up. But there's a big disconnect between wanting to get away from an abusive father and killing every man, woman and child in Dharma. What's now happened to Ben helps explain that.
Originally posted by Achilles:
Ben was messed up already. A kid doesn't so blatently defy his parent to run away unless there is a problem at home.
quote:Agreed. I was actually just talking about this with my fellow Anti-Kate friend -- this episode actually made me sympathize with her in a way I haven't since...well, since probably the first season.
I'm normally not a big fan of post Island off Island Kate episodes, but I actually enjoyed this one(especially cause of the last few minutes). I liked that we learned her motivation for going back to the Island.
)...characters who do things you would never in a million years agree with, who days earlier did truly heroic things you would have been proud to commend them for. quote:Thoughts?
I don't know that Jack was so much OOC in this episode (though obviously you're right in that him being all "I don't care about Ben!" made the Others plot line possible) as he was just fed up with EVERYTHING. They get back to the Island, and it's a huge let down! No one apparently needs saving (at least that he cares about), no one is letting him make decisions, and when they do finally come to him with something to do, it's a crappy (in his estimation) request to save the guy who kidnapped, tortured (to a degree), manipulated and misused him, and the kicker is that the people he cared about want him to do it. And they all kind of betrayed him, too, though it's more an emotional betrayal.
I might not have agreed with Sayid's actions in shooting Wee Ben, but I applauded his decision to actually do something!
quote:Really it's just that writer's enjoy the irony, even though it has become something of a cliche. Not being able to change the past makes logical sense, but I can't think of any logical reason why one's attempts to undo an event HAVE TO BE what causes it. One could simply fail to influence the event at all, like you try to stop Lincoln's assassination, but you go to the wrong theatre, or get there too late.
Originally posted by Armoth:
On the matter of Time Travel:
I'm cool with the whole, you go back in time and you can't change anything idea. That's fine with me. But why is it that when you go back in time, YOU have to be the bad guy? It's like, if you go back in time to prevent the Lincoln assassination - YOU end up assassinating Lincoln.
Why did it have to be that Jack, Sayid, Kate, Juliet, and Sawyer are all responsible for the way that Ben turns out?
By choosing this method of time travel, the writers seem to be making a point that it is immoral to try and change things. If you do, then you pay the price by assuming responsibility for the immorality you are trying to prevent.
quote:I was really disliking Charlotte this season, I was actually glad when she died. She was cooler last season.
And every time a new character has been introduced, I think "like we need more of these!" But somehow, I am drawn into their worlds, like with Daniel and Charlotte, and even the Others.
quote:
Originally posted by Armoth:
Why did it have to be that Jack, Sayid, Kate, Juliet, and Sawyer are all responsible for the way that Ben turns out?
By choosing this method of time travel, the writers seem to be making a point that it is immoral to try and change things. If you do, then you pay the price by assuming responsibility for the immorality you are trying to prevent. It's almost like God's ironic way of punishing people who try to play God. I wonder why the writers feel they need to make this point...
quote:That's not what I'm taking away from it. First off, Kate and Saywer weren't trying to change things, they were just trying to help a kid. Though yes, they willingly gave him over to people who would "change" him. Sayid DID try to change things by shooting Ben, and without knowing it helped enact the future we already know. Same with Jack, though Jack did it through trying to not get involved.
Originally posted by Leonide:
I agree with Armoth: I won't appreciate a moralistic ending to this show that reads something like "go with the flow man -- what's meant to happen will!" That kind of fortune-cookie approach to life sticks in my craw. Whatever my craw is.
quote:To me it just implied that this conflict between widmore and Ben was more layered, that it wasn't simply widmore wanting the island, but that there were agreed upon rules these two were abiding by. And since then we've learned that widmore used to be in a leadership position on the Island, and that they're both connected to Mrs. Hawking(Ellie). I don't think anything in the timeline was changed from those actions. Though good point about Ben being surprised, that's another time I forgot about.
Originally posted by Sterling:
My one thought: when Alex was killed, Ben was surprised, and said something like "They changed the rules." Something about that suggests to me he has an expectation of the way the timeline is supposed to go, but it's been changed.
quote:At most, this has ambiguous consequences: is finding the Orchid a desirable outcome?
Sawyer left the rope in the ground giving future island inhabitants a means to find the orchid location(maybe it's him or one of the Losties that suggest to dharma where to build the station).
quote:Well, then, [Insert Your Character Here]. Charlotte was humanized this season, and I appreciated the attempt at making her relatable, even though I completely disagreed with How. "Requiting" Daniel's unrequited love was out-of-character. Unrequited is unrequited -- the writers don't need to make all of the couples have their "moment."
quote:
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And every time a new character has been introduced, I think "like we need more of these!" But somehow, I am drawn into their worlds, like with Daniel and Charlotte, and even the Others.
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I was really disliking Charlotte this season, I was actually glad when she died. She was cooler last season.
quote:Oh, I do like that thought.
It'll be interesting(and i realize i'm stretching things here) if the act he has to redeem himself for, the reason he came back to the Island(without knowing it) is the very act he just committed when he chose not to help a little boy(the first time we've ever seen Jack do something like that).
quote:I will never look at an orange the same way again.
I guess it's good that, like Traceria disliking Locke, my opinions about characters are meant as a personal reflection, and not intended universally.
quote:I was wondering about that too. I don't think it is a back door to the temple, but it is clearly an entrance to one of the prehistoric sites (like the temple). Evidence is that the site is very ancient so it must have been there when Dharma built the houses. Do we have any clue whose house that was in 1977.
I wonder about the hidden room in Ben's house, the one that seems to be a back door to the temple. Was it there before the others moved in?
quote:Hmmm....completely random thought: What if the Temple (and similar buildings) were sort of organic, like the Wrath ships in Stargate Atlantis? Probably not. He he...
Originally posted by Tammy:
I wonder about the hidden room in Ben's house, the one that seems to be a back door to the temple. Was it there before the others moved in?
quote:I was wondering about that too. I don't think it is a back door to the temple, but it is clearly an entrance to one of the prehistoric sites (like the temple). Evidence is that the site is very ancient so it must have been there when Dharma built the houses. Do we have any clue whose house that was in 1977.
I wonder about the hidden room in Ben's house, the one that seems to be a back door to the temple. Was it there before the others moved in?
quote:I'm anxiously waiting for Hurley and Miles to discuss the whole talking to the dead thing.
The whole Hurley/Miles thing was a fun nod to all the Lost discussion boards. And y'all were right about Ben, of course.
quote:The lostpedia timeline.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Very interesting.
I need a good pre flight 815 timeline of the island.
1954: Nuclear bomb on the island. Charles Whidmore captures Sawyer et al, then unwittingly leads them to other's camp. John Locke and group talk with Richard.
1974: Jin, Sawyer, Miles, Daniel and Juliet captured by Dharma initiative.
1977: Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid captured by Dharma initiative. Ben 12 years old .
Jan. 1989: Alex born on the island. Other's living in jungle.
~1994 (based on Alex's age). Other's living in Dharma compound.
2001: Desmond shipwrecks on the island.
What else can we fill in?
Do we know what year it was when the others wiped out the Dharma initiative?
Do we know how old Ben was when he came to the island?
How long was Kelvin stationed at the Swan when Desmond arrived.?
What year did Juliet come to the island?
quote:We didn't before? Echo and Yemi would be a prime example. But I agree that I don't think anyone can reasonably deny this anymore.
We do now have evidence to support the theory that the visions people see on the island are connected to the smoke monster.
quote:That's exactly what I thought when Locke kept disappearing whenever the Monster was supposed to come. I was thinking that perhaps Locke's relationship to the Monster is similar to Christian's. After all, Christian is supposed to be dead, yet keeps appearing as alive to people on the island. Perhaps both are examples of living dead.
Okay...Locke is missing in the woods. Ben calls the monster and says to Sun he won't be able to control what comes out of the woods. And instead of the monster, John Locke steps out. He tells Ben that he knows where to find the smoke monster. How? When Locke was being pulled by the smoke monster it was about to pull him into a hole in the ground...not into the temple. How does he know where the temple is? Locke leads Ben to the temple(like how the smoke monster drags people it catches towards its home) but they don't go in the main way, they go in through the hole in the ground(the hole that the monster drags people into, i.e.- the french team). Locke knows the real reason Ben needs to be judged without Ben telling him so, and when Ben finally admits it, it is right after that that he falls through the floor. Locke leaves to go find rope. Ben encounters the smoke monster. Locke shows back up with rope asking what happened. If that isn't a Clark Kent/Superman moment I don't know what is.
So, what do you guys think?
quote:There's no reason for some random crash victims to be moving a huge box around on the island. They've been there at most a few days. Why would they need to move things? Where to? Why? Ben would immediately jump on this strangeness if he didn't have some inkling or knowledge of the box's contents.
Ben seems genuinly interested in what is in the crate at the beginning of the episode.
quote:Agreed. And I remember thinking specifically at the time that it seemed less that Ben was warning her in general, and more that he was warning her because he had some knowledge of the whispers: what they are, where they came from, and what they *mean*, specifically.
Oh...last thing. I thought Ben's line about the Whispers was really interesting, though i don't have much to add to that comment.
quote:Tresopax, your thoughts mirror mine. In fact, I really have to wonder if Locke has been physically resurrected or if he is more like Christian or Claire or the pscyhologist lady, and so on, and can physically manifest wherever he likes.
I was thinking that perhaps Locke's relationship to the Monster is similar to Christian's. After all, Christian is supposed to be dead, yet keeps appearing as alive to people on the island. Perhaps both are examples of living dead.
quote:I've got to wonder about Ben, too. He seems to have an insider scoop on the Whispers and knows some about the Monster, but appears almost clueless at other points. Or is that feeling just due to the stark contrast struck between Ben and Locke in this episode?
And I remember thinking specifically at the time that it seemed less that Ben was warning her in general, and more that he was warning her because he had some knowledge of the whispers: what they are, where they came from, and what they *mean*, specifically.
quote:I've been thinking about this. At first my thought process told me you were right. That it was more like Ben was playing a game, or possibly testing Illana. That he was responsible for her catching sayid and bringing him on the plane. And that his manipulation and murder of Caesar makes more sense in this light.
Originally posted by Leonide:
So maybe they're not Widmore's people, but unwittingly Ben's?
quote:yeah, i worded it badly in my post, but whatever the exact wording was Ben definitely contradicted himself.
Originally posted by Xavier:
IIRC, Sun asked flat out "You knew this would happen?" to which Ben explicitly denied. The two stories were mutually exclusive I believe.
quote:I've said this before, but I really think that both Ben AND Widmore have the best interest of the Island in mind. But I also think they're both selfish and greedy, and so will do what's best for the Island, and whatever they can to make sure they're the one in control...that they have the power.
Originally posted by The Reader:
Maybe Ben isn't evil? I've always thought Ben seemed to be acting the way he does because he needs to protect whatever secrets the Island has. He has chosen to take a Machiavellian approach because that is what is required to avoid catastrophe.
quote:Ben I could understand, but what evidence do we have that Widmore has the "best interest" of the Island in mind? He doesn't use that terminology to discuss the Island, like Ben does, and he was exiled from it, and he always seems like this hot-headed power-hungry individual, not working for a nebulous greater good, but for his own ends (namely, it appears, regaining control of a mystical island).
but I really think that both Ben AND Widmore have the best interest of the Island in mind
quote:Yep!
Originally posted by Strider:
I love Hurley.
quote:Ask and you shall receive.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:I'm anxiously waiting for Hurley and Miles to discuss the whole talking to the dead thing.
The whole Hurley/Miles thing was a fun nod to all the Lost discussion boards. And y'all were right about Ben, of course.
quote:It looks like it's probably a simply substitution cypher. Obviously not a=1, b=2, because there are some numbers higher than 26, but I bet if I had the time to mess with it... well, there are 26 unique numbers in it. And here's the frequency list of the numbers:
Originally posted by Xann.:
Everyone want to hear sometihng cool, I found this in a random page in Wired magazine.
First there is a Lotto ticket with 4,8,15,16,23 MEGA NUMBER 42
Then it is strange. It goes like this
17 1 22 16 8 6
20 11 18 18 10 14
7 7 5 18 22 7 5 6
24 15 12 13 1 8
4 34 18 55 14 93
54 5 6 11 10 13
30 12 6 19 2 22 5
2 1 117 2 17 1 17
The first four are on one page, the second four are on the second page. There is no text, can anyone find a secret message? I can not.
code:I'd put money on 17 being either R or S, and 1 being E, but beyond that, codebreaking isn't really my thing. Anyone else want to give it a go? From what I can see, E A O and T are the four most common letters. When I saw that it had 26 unique numbers, I figured it might be something like "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog", because it'd have to use every letter in the alphabet, but it obviously isn't that.1 4
5 4
6 4
18 4
2 3
7 3
17 3
8 2
10 2
11 2
12 2
13 2
14 2
22 2
4 1
15 1
16 1
19 1
20 1
24 1
30 1
34 1
54 1
55 1
93 1
117 1
quote:Seriously!
Originally posted by Leonide:
3) Can Kate stop being stupid, or is it like an addiction for her?
I think the only episode during which she didn't annoy me was the one about Aaron.quote:I was saying to someone earlier today that I've come to realize that Kate is basically the female Sawyer, and that any sympathy I have for Sawyer I, for some reason, don't or won't extend to Kate, who usually has the same self-preservatory motives (Aaron situation non-withstanding) and the same general outlook on life. She's just not so snarky about everything.
I like Kate. I don't think stupid is the right way to describe her. She leads with her heart not her head, she is very consistent about that. In this respect, she is the complete opposite of Sawyer.
quote:Sawyer was snarky about it because that's not really who he is. He's a good man who did bad things out of bitterness. Kate just isn't that good of a person. Sawyer's response to adversity was to mature as a person. He's grown up. He absolutely thinks before he does things. Kate reacts. She's ruthless, and I wouldn't turn my back on her if I was between her and something she wanted.
Originally posted by Leonide:
I was saying to someone earlier today that I've come to realize that Kate is basically the female Sawyer, and that any sympathy I have for Sawyer I, for some reason, don't or won't extend to Kate, who usually has the same self-preservatory motives (Aaron situation non-withstanding) and the same general outlook on life. She's just not so snarky about everything.
quote:Of course, this raises the question of "Why Ben?" Is it just displacement of her feelings for Aaron? The "big picture" there would seem to be "don't help kid who turns out to be crazytown".
Additionally, look at the sacrifices she is making for young Ben!
quote:Yes, and I still keep wondering, why?
Originally posted by Armoth:
Additionally, look at the sacrifices she is making for young Ben!
quote:Oh, please. That's just more of her refusing to see a bigger picture. She didn't make a sacrifice for Ben. She reacted to her own maternal feelings of having lost her son. As far as Aaron was concerned, she had no right to him in the first place. Jack had more right to him.
Originally posted by Armoth:
Aren't we now witnessing Kate's maturity? I thought they were painting her very compassionately with her relationship with Aaron. And when she admitted that SHE needed Aaron - I thought that was very mature (though I didn't quite agree...)
Additionally, look at the sacrifices she is making for young Ben!
quote:Sure. But I'm not convinced that Hurley believes any of this is happening. Too many things (dead people, etc) have been messing with his sense of reality for him to really take things very seriously. That's one of the reasons, I think, for his laid back attitude. He probably thinks this is all happening in a snowglobe on the chief of medicine's desk.
Originally posted by Sterling:
I guess I'm in a hopeless minority- I thought "Dude, I won't tell anyone about the corpse" was dumb, even for Hurley's level of naivité.
quote:Possible... nay, plausible.
Originally posted by Armoth:
Or if it was lost, you'd go back in time and find out that YOU are Hitler. ::makes a confusing face::
quote:I enjoyed that. He's good!
Originally posted by Leonide:
Ben Linus reads a Nursery Rhyme
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
<-----extremely upset
quote:Wow, I actually figured something out on a show/movie before it was revealed. This is new for me.
Originally posted by Mama Squirrel(on January 30th):
Could Whidmore be Faraday's father? The woman holding the gun on Faraday looks to be about the same age as Whidmore on the island.
quote:She definitely shot him but it wasn't clear whether or not he was dead. His eyes are still moving in that last shot.
Originally posted by Lisa:
I was almost positive he was his father. And I was even more sure she was going to shoot him. I wasn't sure she'd kill him, though.
quote:And just because they showed Jack waving the journal around in the previews doesn't mean Daniel's a goner either. Man, I'm crossing my fingers now until next episode!!
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:She definitely shot him but it wasn't clear whether or not he was dead. His eyes are still moving in that last shot.
Originally posted by Lisa:
I was almost positive he was his father. And I was even more sure she was going to shoot him. I wasn't sure she'd kill him, though.
quote:I didn't think so. They looked like they were staring in a sort of dead way. I guess we'll see next week.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:She definitely shot him but it wasn't clear whether or not he was dead. His eyes are still moving in that last shot.
Originally posted by Lisa:
I was almost positive he was his father. And I was even more sure she was going to shoot him. I wasn't sure she'd kill him, though.
quote:
Alex: Moving on to more show, or so to speak, related questions. In the special alternate reality game The Dharma Project from last year. A lot of fans want to know, since basically funding was pulled out of the Dharma project last year, what was going to be the final revelation of The Dharma Project? Since The Lost Experience was about the numbers, and Find 815 was about the fake wreckage, so, what was going to be the final act of The Dharma Project?
Damon: Essentially the whole idea was to signal to the audience that our characters: Jack and Kate and Sawyer and Hurley and Juliet and Sayid were going to end up in Dharma times, and Faraday too, sorry, and Miles of course, strongly imply that our characters were going to appear in Dharma times. So that would be something that would be sort of set up in the Internet experience. I think some people believe that they hear Faraday's voice in the Comic-Con experience. These events are sort of partially canon but more promotional than they are canon. Giving the audience a sneak peak as to what the season is about.
quote:We don't know what Faraday might have done earlier. He might have travelled to this time and then gone back, and afterwards (on his personal timeline) come back to get blown away by Mommy Dearest.
Originally posted by Strider:
dead is dead.
that scene hasn't happened yet. unless Faraday is alive, that scene cannot happen, since there is no time traveling faraday alive to make it happen. and we know it hasn't happened in his past either.
quote:Right. With Daniel's knowledge and expertise, I expected him to be one of the heroes. Unless this is a cliffhanger and he isn't really dead, like lil' Ben (even though we all knew he would live).
Originally posted by Strider:
that's weasely of them. That is not only without a doubt Faraday's voice, but it was very intentionally Faraday. Does that mean they made a big plot change and now need to backtrack out of this, and figure because it wasn't aired on the show it doesn't matter?
quote:He says "Lara, get him out of here" and "Lara, what are you doing?" Lara is his wife.
Originally posted by J-Put:
I actually think that it sounded more like miles and jack. And he says at 3:34 "Lefleur what are you doing?" Theres a lot of hidden stuff in that video though. At 2:42 theres somebody talking, but it's faint, and not anybody in the room. It may be in another language, I can't make it out. And at 1:46 there's an image of SOMETHING for just a second.
quote:You might want to listen to that a couple more times. At 3:34. Just loop that spot a few times. It's absolutely LaFleur.
Originally posted by The Reader:
quote:He says "Lara, get him out of here" and "Lara, what are you doing?" Lara is his wife.
Originally posted by J-Put:
I actually think that it sounded more like miles and jack. And he says at 3:34 "Lafleur what are you doing?" Theres a lot of hidden stuff in that video though. At 2:42 theres somebody talking, but it's faint, and not anybody in the room. It may be in another language, I can't make it out. And at 1:46 there's an image of SOMETHING for just a second.
quote:He only knows so much because he's been told by all these time travelers. As far as not aging... that doesn't grant someone knowledge of the future.
Originally posted by Leonide:
Richard's getting on my nerves. He never ages and/or time jumps with regularity, seems to have all the answers, and yet doesn't remember the guy who told him to hide the hydrogen bomb? Puh-lease.
quote:That was 23 years ago. I can't say I'd immediately recognize a guy who I'd seen for only a few minutes 20 years ago even if that was the most important few minutes of my life. I'd certainly remember the event but I can't say I'd immediately recognize the face.
Richard's getting on my nerves. He never ages and/or time jumps with regularity, seems to have all the answers, and yet doesn't remember the guy who told him to hide the hydrogen bomb? Puh-lease.
quote:His M.O. seems to be to pause and say "Do I know you?" or "Have we met?" to all time travelers. It's a good practice, to figure out where they are on their personal timeline, to guess how much they know about him/the situation.
Richard's getting on my nerves. He never ages and/or time jumps with regularity, seems to have all the answers, and yet doesn't remember the guy who told him to hide the hydrogen bomb? Puh-lease.
quote:I always know what the music am playing is supposed to sound like, and how I am supposed to pplay it. Rarely can I make my fingers follow along though.
Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong:
You'd think that if he could count the beats of the metronome, he would play evenly with it.
quote:yeah...this is what i was thinking too.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:That was 23 years ago. I can't say I'd immediately recognize a guy who I'd seen for only a few minutes 20 years ago even if that was the most important few minutes of my life. I'd certainly remember the event but I can't say I'd immediately recognize the face.
Richard's getting on my nerves. He never ages and/or time jumps with regularity, seems to have all the answers, and yet doesn't remember the guy who told him to hide the hydrogen bomb? Puh-lease.
quote:J-Put also said it sounded like Jack or Miles and I can't imagine how anyone would hear that. I think this proves that J-Put is actually a plant by the network to throw us off the correct scent!
Originally posted by The Reader:
That doesn't make any sense within the context of the video. Why would He tell LaFleur to get baby Miles out of there, when his wife would probably be there too?
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
quote:I wonder if he did that when Locke first meets him in 2004. It would be interesting to go back and watch that episode and see if there is any foreshadowing of the time travel but I don't actually have time to scan through all the episodes. Does any one know what season that might have been or perhaps the name of the episode or other events that happen that episode?
His M.O. seems to be to pause and say "Do I know you?" or "Have we met?" to all time travelers. It's a good practice, to figure out where they are on their personal timeline, to guess how much they know about him/the situation.
quote:I think a bunch of people on here were bowled over at the prospect that Rousseau would not recognize Jin after all those years. At the time I said something to the effect that she probably didn't know him in that time period for very long, which turned out to be true. I'm sort of on the opposite end of the argument this time, though, because I think Richard's a different kind of person. The idea that he would just naturally not remember Faraday presumes that Richard really is immortal and/or never-aging. Which is not a premise that I necessarily buy.
That was 23 years ago. I can't say I'd immediately recognize a guy who I'd seen for only a few minutes 20 years ago even if that was the most important few minutes of my life. I'd certainly remember the event but I can't say I'd immediately recognize the face.
quote:Yes but that isn't what I meant. Is there any evidence in that first meeting that Richard was trying to determine where Locke was in Locke's personal time line. Did Richard say anything to indicate he was trying to determine whether the events of his past were in Locke's past or future?
Originally posted by Strider:
Well, there is the whole line about "we've been waiting for you for a long time".
quote:I don't have a good explanation for Richard but I think frequent time travel has a number of problems. Juliette said "Richard's always been here" and he certainly is always there whenever anyone is looking for him. I presume that a person who travels in time is still aging on their particular time line. This pretty much precludes them from being anywhere all the time and still being perpetually young. If we allow that he may have aged say 2 years over the 50 years, that wouldn't allow him to be with the others more than an hour each day on average. If that were the case, what are the odds that he would always be around when one of the Losties comes looking for him unless he time jumps specifically to be present for particular events. Still you think Juliette would have noticed him being gone most of the time during her 3 years with the others.
There's something not right about him, and I think his existence in more than one time period is better explained by individual time travel than He's a Pseudo-God.
quote:Somehow I have a hard time thinking of either Ben Linus or Charles Widmore as "puppets". I think that's the wrong analogy. I think Richard is something closer to the spiritual leader of the others while Widmore and Linus were the political leaders. Something like the relationship between Gandhi and Nehru.
He strikes me as the kind of guy who pulls the strings behind puppet leaders, and is perfectly happy in that role even though he doesn't get all the glory.
quote:Yeah, that's a much better way to put it.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Somehow I have a hard time thinking of either Ben Linus or Charles Widmore as "puppets". I think that's the wrong analogy. I think Richard is something closer to the spiritual leader of the others while Widmore and Linus were the political leaders. Something like the relationship between Gandhi and Nehru.
He strikes me as the kind of guy who pulls the strings behind puppet leaders, and is perfectly happy in that role even though he doesn't get all the glory.
quote:But this whole show Revolves around finding out that the People We Thought Were in Charge, Really Aren't.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Somehow I have a hard time thinking of either Ben Linus or Charles Widmore as "puppets".
He strikes me as the kind of guy who pulls the strings behind puppet leaders, and is perfectly happy in that role even though he doesn't get all the glory.
quote:That seems way to contrived even for this show, it sounds too much like you are proposing that Richard is some sort of Schrodinger's cat. He doesn't age because he only exists when people are looking for him and people rarely look for him.
Maybe it's one of those things where he is time-jumping but only always to exactly where he needs to be, where he always was, because you "Can't Change the Past" so he is displaced and moved exactly where he needs to be and when.
quote:I'm not arguing that Ben or Charles were every the top dog, clearly they answer to Jacob and possibly others. But there is a difference between being middle management and a puppet leader. Puppet just doesn't fit either personality even though they obviously don't wield the ultimate power.
But this whole show Revolves around finding out that the People We Thought Were in Charge, Really Aren't. . . . .
I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that Widmore and Ben are pawns.
quote:Alright, let me walk through every off screen interaction and my explanation of who it is then. That's why I gave the time in the video, so you wouldn't think I was talking about when he yells to his wife.
Originally posted by The Reader:
That doesn't make any sense within the context of the video. Why would He tell LaFleur to get baby Miles out of there, when his wife would probably be there too?
quote:Not that I recall.
Originally posted by The Pixiest:
Have we seen Richard and the Smoke Monster together?
quote:It's also possible that Jacob is trying to kill himself... and Locke is helping.
it'd be more interesting if Locke was Jacob. Then he'd have to kill himself.
quote:One of the many many things that pissed me off about last night's episode. i guess in their mind, if they detonate the bomb, then their plane never crashes, and they never time jump, and they can't be there to die when the bomb goes off. But then they also can't be there to set the bomb off. This is fundamentally why the "whatever happened, happened" philosophy makes more sense, anything else just becomes too convoluted and implausible.
And sorry if this has been repeated, but is it assumed that if the hydrogen bomb is set off, the survivors will all magically inhabit the bodies of their future selves? The seventies is their current present. Wouldn't they just.. you know... die?
quote:When Widmore complains that Richard took young Ben to the temple, Richard says "Jacob wanted it".
Has Jacob been mentioned at all in the '70's era? I don't remember it if he has. Could it be that the incoming disaster creates him?
quote:They could go on living while their future selves continue on without a crash. They'd be castaways in time, rather than on an island.
Originally posted by Strider:
Richard has suddenly become ignorant and useless, and I don't like it one bit.
quote:One of the many many things that pissed me off about last night's episode. i guess in their mind, if they detonate the bomb, then their plane never crashes, and they never time jump, and they can't be there to die when the bomb goes off. But then they also can't be there to set the bomb off. This is fundamentally why the "whatever happened, happened" philosophy makes more sense, anything else just becomes too convoluted and implausible.
And sorry if this has been repeated, but is it assumed that if the hydrogen bomb is set off, the survivors will all magically inhabit the bodies of their future selves? The seventies is their current present. Wouldn't they just.. you know... die?
quote:We don't know that.
But he isn't Lazarus Long.
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
My guess is that Richard is some sort of priest. Maybe an ancient Egyptian priest, given the statue and the temple. So he's been blessed/cursed with eternal life, or life for as long as he needs in order to find some ultimate leader.
I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing at a connection your words caused my brain to make. Has anyone around here seen the first season (the good one) of Jubei Chan The Ninja Girl - Secret of the Lovely Eye Patch? Well, the plot involves this legendary swordsman dying, and on his death bed he charges his loyal follower to not rest until he finds the swordsman's successor. Three hundred years later, the follower is living on will power alone because he MUST find the successor before he can ever rest and be at peace. So, yeah, I find your suggestion funny and also quite plausible in the Lost sphere as well!
quote:It isn't that he has suddenly become ignorant, its that we have suddenly discovered it. Up until this episode, it seemed like Richard had all kinds of mysterious fore knowledge of events. But now it turns out the only things he ever knew were because John visited him in the past. Its sort of disappointing.
What I don't get is all the talk about how has "suddenly become ignorant".
quote:Alpert sounds Jewish. Maybe he's the Wandering Jew?
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:We don't know that.
But he isn't Lazarus Long.
quote:Hmm...the Smoke Monster is, after all, chained.
Originally posted by Strider:
Actually, I think it's more likely that Jacob and the smoke monster are one and the same, or intertwined in some fundamental way. Remember Locke's first visit, when the room starts going crazy we see a cloud of black smoke rocking back and forth in Jacob's chair.
quote:Sorry. I tag information as a spoiler in the future. Hmm, That's pretty far away considering that Season 6 doesn't start for months.
Also The Reader- please don't post anything about future episodes. I would rather have preferred to not know that those two characters are going to be in it. I don't read the press releases because they give away more information than I would want.
quote:Spoiler alert!
Originally posted by The Reader:
Hmm, That's pretty far away considering that Season 6 doesn't start for months.
quote:months is putting it lightly!
That's pretty far away considering that Season 6 doesn't start for months.
quote:She isn't. She's the same selfish Kate we've seen from the get-go. If setting off a hydrogen bomb would ensure that she stays out of jail, she'd press the button in a heartbeat. The reason she has a problem with it is that she's afraid Jack's right, and that setting off the bomb will result in her landing in LA with the Federal Marshall and matching steel bracelets.
Originally posted by Strider:
Kate
You know something is wrong when Kate is the VOICE OF REASON.
quote:So it's simply coincidence that her selfish take on the bomb situation is also the one that makes the most sense.
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:She isn't. She's the same selfish Kate we've seen from the get-go. If setting off a hydrogen bomb would ensure that she stays out of jail, she'd press the button in a heartbeat. The reason she has a problem with it is that she's afraid Jack's right, and that setting off the bomb will result in her landing in LA with the Federal Marshall and matching steel bracelets.
Originally posted by Strider:
Kate
You know something is wrong when Kate is the VOICE OF REASON.
's)
quote:Makes the most sense TO YOU. I don't see her take on the situation as any more sensible than the others. No one seems to be acting reasonably to me but then I wouldn't expect anyone to act reasonably if they suddenly found themselves 30 years in the past immediately before a cataclysmic event or were confronted by someone 30 years from the future. In fact I can't say what I would find to be a reasonable action in their situation.
So it's simply coincidence that her selfish take on the bomb situation is also the one that makes the most sense.
quote:One thing I've got to give Lost is that it has me wondering at random moments what my reaction would really be if I were to walk into a Twilight Zone scenario. Watching that classic show also causes me to wonder the same thing, but it's cool that Lost does as well.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
...but then I wouldn't expect anyone to act reasonably if they suddenly found themselves 30 years in the past immediately before a cataclysmic event...
quote:Wait..... how was that related?
Originally posted by Traceria:
On a not entirely unrelated note, this morning as I was driving into work and observed some overgrown grass on either side of a sidewalk, I got to wondering what it would be like if mowing grass wasn't the norm. What if the norm was letting your grass grow to be so many feet tall, thus making sidewalks like hedged in pathways?
quote:I think you're mostly on. I do think all the Losties will be reunited though, whether it's in 2007 or 2000 BC.
Originally posted by Puppy:
Jack's bomb causes the incident.
The guys stuck in the 70's travel in time, rather than dying or losing arms like everyone else (named Doctor Chang). But they go somewhere weird, like 2000 BC.
The sub gets away without Sawyer, Kate, and Juliet onboard.
There's some shocking revelation about Jacob's identity that none of us seriously proposed.
quote:Perhaps I'm being nitpicky, but Richard says he watched them all die, he doesn't say when that was.
Richard says he saw the Losties die in 77.
quote:When was there a Kyle Hollis on Lost.
Originally posted by Lisa:
I knew Jacob's evil twin at the beginning of the show looked familiar. He name is Titus Welliver, and he played Kyle Hollis on Lost. He's creepy.
quote:I don't think they changed anything. For a few reasons.
Okay. So if Faraday is right, none of that ever happened. The devil guy, disguised as Locke, never gets Ben to kill the god guy (I'm assuming they were more or less God/Satan analogs). But Jacob clearly manipulated them all into coming to the Island. Why wouldn't he do so anyway? And if not by plane crash, than some other way?
quote:I mean Life. Sorry.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:When was there a Kyle Hollis on Lost.
Originally posted by Lisa:
I knew Jacob's evil twin at the beginning of the show looked familiar. He name is Titus Welliver, and he played Kyle Hollis on Lost. He's creepy.
quote:I totally agree. I don't know why I didn't think of that.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I think we should call Jacob's evil twin Esau until we have a real name.
quote:agreed.
I'm pretty confident now that Rose and Bernard are Adam and Eve
quote:Noooo!!! I absolutely hate that kind of story. They can leave some threads hanging, but if they don't tie the major things up they are going to have some seriously ballistic fans.
At this point, the writers could pretty much decide to do anything. They could have even ended the series right then, and left the rest up to our imaginations.
quote:I was thinking about this last night. If Jacob lies in the shadow of the statue, then what exactly makes the cabin Jacob's cabin? And now that we know about the connection between Jacob's enemy and the smoke monster(and thus most likely Christian Shepard as well), it brings up a whole new set of questions, many of which you cover about the nature of what we've seen over the years and who was really acting. Anyway...I had always speculated that the ash surrounding the cabin and the lack of technology was their to keep Jacob trapped inside. But I started thinking yesterday, that maybe it's the other way around, maybe it was to keep something out. Question is who or what? What is the keep Jacob out, or Esau? And who broke the circle of ash, and what happened due to the circle being broken?
We also see resurrected Christian inside the abandoned cabin. Does this mean that Jacob's enemy was using the cabin? Was he pretending to be Jacob? Was he the one that spoke to Locke and said "Help me"?
quote:the only information we were missing was that this wasn't the "real" Locke. Though we were given a clue, Ben had never seen anything like this, which was reiterated by Richard this past episode.
Locke is in some very significant way related to the smoke monster. I'm not ready to go out on a limb and say Locke IS the smoke monster(in no small part due to the fact that the smoke monster has been around for thousands of years), but i think i'm on to something.
Okay...Locke is missing in the woods. Ben calls the monster and says to Sun he won't be able to control what comes out of the woods. And instead of the monster, John Locke steps out. He tells Ben that he knows where to find the smoke monster. How? When Locke was being pulled by the smoke monster it was about to pull him into a hole in the ground...not into the temple. How does he know where the temple is? Locke leads Ben to the temple(like how the smoke monster drags people it catches towards its home) but they don't go in the main way, they go in through the hole in the ground(the hole that the monster drags people into, i.e.- the french team). Locke knows the real reason Ben needs to be judged without Ben telling him so, and when Ben finally admits it, it is right after that that he falls through the floor. Locke leaves to go find rope. Ben encounters the smoke monster. Locke shows back up with rope asking what happened. If that isn't a Clark Kent/Superman moment I don't know what is.
quote:I don't know if it's right to keep calling this season's Locke "resurrected," since it's pretty clearly his dead body that falls out of that box...he's Smoke Monsterfied! Also, loved the symmetry between finding out Locke was the body in the coffin in "There's No Place Like Home" and finding out he was the body in the box in "The Incident".
If Jacob's rival is the resurrected Locke,
It's a for-reals short story: Everything That Rises Must Converge about -- wait for it -- a troubled mother-son relationship. (Ellie/Faraday?)
quote:Tresopax, that's the way I'm leaning, too. In fact, I tend to agree with just about every thought and suspicion you mentioned after that as well. I'd say, though, that it was never Jacob pulling the strings behind Ben but the Rival/smoke monster (I agree, Raymond and Tres that they're either one in the same or closely linked) manipulating Ben, building up Ben's resentment for Jacob very, very, VERY slowly. Jacob never refused to let Ben see him because it was never Jacob interacting with Richard (or any other Others?) who were handing down orders.
If Jacob's rival is the resurrected Locke, then is it possible that he is also the person behind every other resurrected dead person on the show?
quote:
they are locked in an eternal struggle, and that's why they can never kill each other
and why Jacob says "it only ends once, until then, it's all just progress"
and Esau says, "why do you bring them here, all they ever do it pillage and destroy?"
quote:I kind of figured that was simply because they wanted to end the episode on the flash to white. It looks to me like it was a last minute decision because something doesn't look quite right about it. I think it's likely they originally flashed to white and then went to the normal black screen but when they viewed what would have been the final cut, going to black diluted the effect of the flash to white ending so they made the change. Of course, now that the net is the buzz with the idea that the change means something more they might decide to make it mean something more.
I'm sure you've all noticed that the white "LOST" on black background was inverted at the end, but has anyone thought about the possible significance of that to the final season?
quote:You have the exchange backwards.
why Jacob says "it only ends once, until then, it's all just progress"
and Esau says, "why do you bring them here, all they ever do it pillage and destroy?"
quote:
Esau: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Your still trying to prove me wrong.
Jacob: You are wrong.
Esau: Am I? They come, fight. They corrupt. They destroy. It always ends the same.
Jacob: It only ends once, everything else is just progress.
quote:I don't think he was manipulating them. He may have been manipulating circumstances in their lives or just observing. I definitely think he brought them to the island. I confident he is responsible for the 2007 crash and the transportation to 1977. I also think its extremely likely that he is responsible for the them coming to the island on flight 815. Remember that flight 815 was 1000 miles off course. It shouldn't have been anywhere near the island when Desmond crashed the plane. I'm guessing that if Desmond hadn't failed to push the button, the flight 815 would have made a crash landing on the island the same way the Al Jira flight crash landed. That was after all one of the key points in the scene between Jacob and Esua -- Jacob brings people to the island.
It sounds like from a few comments (in the lengthy chain!) that people are thinking that Jacob 'manipulated' people into coming to the Island. I don't think he did (exception might be Hurley). What did he do in each case? He showed up at a possibly key moment in their lives, made quick appearances and offered words of encouragement, comfort, kept them from getting hit by trucks, etc. He didn't mention the Island to anyone but Hurley that I can recall.
quote:While watching all the interactions between Jacob and the Losties in the past you'll notice he goes out of his way to touch every one of them. And the shot seems to frame on his touching them. I think he was doing more than just talking to them....
Originally posted by Traceria:
3. It sounds like from a few comments (in the lengthy chain!) that people are thinking that Jacob 'manipulated' people into coming to the Island. I don't think he did (exception might be Hurley). What did he do in each case? He showed up at a possibly key moment in their lives, made quick appearances and offered words of encouragement, comfort, kept them from getting hit by trucks, etc. He didn't mention the Island to anyone but Hurley that I can recall.
quote:He was reaping them!
Originally posted by Damien.m:
While watching all the interactions between Jacob and the Losties in the past you'll notice he goes out of his way to touch every one of them. And the shot seems to frame on his touching them. I think he was doing more than just talking to them....
quote:Well, just so you know, they've made it clear that they're never going to explain how it is that the island moves in space and time. They said it would be like the idiotic "midichlorian" explanation of the Force in Star Wars. The show is about the characters; not about the island. The island does what it does, and we'll never know why. It's just the backdrop for the characters.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Noooo!!! I absolutely hate that kind of story. They can leave some threads hanging, but if they don't tie the major things up they are going to have some seriously ballistic fans.
At this point, the writers could pretty much decide to do anything. They could have even ended the series right then, and left the rest up to our imaginations.
quote:They've already pretty much explained that one with the "energy" pockets under the island and the time wheel that Ben and Locke turned. They are right that any attempt at doing more to explain the "physics" of something that is fantasy rather than science would be pretty lame.
Well, just so you know, they've made it clear that they're never going to explain how it is that the island moves in space and time.
quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
Esau: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Your still trying to prove me wrong.
Jacob: You are wrong.
Esau: Am I? They come, fight. They corrupt. They destroy. It always ends the same.
Jacob: It only ends once, everything else is just progress.
quote:Yeah, I think they pretty much answered that question with this episode: all of these people are here because it's part of Jacob and Esau's game. Hopefully we'll get more specific than that but even by itself, that does a lot to ease my concerns of silly self-fulfilling circular prophesies.
I this weeks clip show with commentary by Abrams and Lindelof, they say "These people are here for a reason".
quote:I didn't see that movie, but I did recognize him as the junkie/convict husband of Rita in the show Dexter. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen him play a non-bully before.
Originally posted by Strider:
No one has mentioned the most important part of this past week's episode. The actor who plays Jacob is one of the carpet pissers from The Big Lebowski!
"We know which Lebowski you are Lebowski....you're not dealing with morons here"
quote:I don't consider that an answer to the question. It's a start, a hint at what form the answer will take -- but it isn't an answer.
Yeah, I think they pretty much answered that question with this episode: all of these people are here because it's part of Jacob and Esau's game.
quote:Very Doctor Who...White Guardian vs. Black Guardian. Arguably, isn't the Devil/God struggle ultimately about chaos versus order as well?
they are locked in an eternal struggle, and that's why they can never kill each other
and why Jacob says "it only ends once, until then, it's all just progress"
and Esau says, "why do you bring them here, all they ever do it pillage and destroy?"
quote:Considering that I have had several multi hour discussions with extremely intelligent people about whether purpose and predetermination were mutually exclusive, I have a hard time seeing this a ridiculous statement. I also can't give any cogent answer to your question in the amount of time I have to spend on the forum, so I'm sorry but I'm asking you trust me when I say this is not at all an idea that should be ridiculed. It was perhaps not worded in the clearest manner, but it isn't stupid.
"I think it was Lindelof who said a supremely ridiculous thing quoted in the clip show: something to the effect of it's a question of whether or not these characters have their futures predetermined, or whether they're all here for a reason!" How, exactly are those two things opposites?
quote:I have to disagree.
They've also said they aren't going to answer all the questions and I'm fine with that as long as they answer the big under lying question. I'm not even sure how to phrase that question, I'll work on it. They also need to bring the stories of the main characters to some sort of resolution. [/QB]
quote:maybe they just happened to be in the hatch pushing the button at the time.
How did Radzynski and Kelvin Inman survive the Purge?
quote:I don't see that as a disagreement at all. Recognize I was responding to Tresopax's statement
Originally posted by Craig Childs:
quote:I have to disagree.
They've also said they aren't going to answer all the questions and I'm fine with that as long as they answer the big under lying question. I'm not even sure how to phrase that question, I'll work on it. They also need to bring the stories of the main characters to some sort of resolution.
Yes, LOST is a character-driven show, but it's also a mystery built on questions, large and small. When you read a mystery novel, you want to know what happens to the main characters, but even more importantly you want to know "who dunnit?" And once you find out the who did it, then all the events leading up to the reveal have to make sense. Characters must have acted consistently and rationally in light of the new information.
[/QB]
quote:And said that would be completely utterly unacceptable. And then to Lisa's post saying the writers have said they aren't going to answer particular questions.
Of course, this is pretty much all random speculation. At this point, the writers could pretty much decide to do anything. They could have even ended the series right then, and left the rest up to our imaginations.
quote:Strider presents a pretty simple answer that is obvious enough that it doesn't really need an explanation. The Dharma initiative people were killed with gas, the hatch was sealed and locked. What's the question?
How did Radzynski and Kelvin Inman survive the Purge?
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
That guy is such an incredible jerk he's virtually a psychopath.
quote:I think this is probably the best explanation - especially given the previous emphasis on constants and variables. But how can the show demonstrate that progress has been made? I suspect Season 6 will have to do that - unless it intends to conclude that Jacob was wrong.
Jacob believes that the numbers can change, that humans (the variables) can change their destiny while the other guy, Esau, feels otherwise. Therefore, Jacob is trying to prove Esau wrong by bringing people to the island to change the outcome, to show that humans are still capable of progress. And that is why Jacob offered Ben a choice, to highlight that humans can choose their destiny.
quote:I'm curious to know whether he changes after the incident. I suspect one of two outcomes:
On a related note, now that we've seen what Radzinsky is like, can you imagine being locked up in the hatch with him for years? That guy is such an incredible jerk he's virtually a psychopath.
quote:Maybe the reason is that Daniel knew the magnetic anomaly would absorb or contain much of the explosion and radiation. Perhaps the nuclear explosion instantly breached the pocket of energy and was contained by the resulting powerful implosion. And perhaps time travel is involved. We don't really know much about how any of that works, so I think the show can reasonably claim that detonating a nuclear bomb right next to the pocket of energy would not destroy the island.
Normally I'd rather argue about large-scale motivations, but I do have to nitpick one detail around the bomb. Faraday says they have to get it as close as possible to the energy. Really? It's a nuclear weapon, for goodness' sake! I think it can join horseshoes and hand grenades as something where "close" is good enough. I'd imagine it would level the better part of the island.
quote:Ah. Thanks.
Originally posted by Strider:
Kelvin is the other guy in the Hatch when Desmond shows up on the Island. We know Radzinsky survives because Kelvin tells Desmond Radzisnky was with him in the hatch until he blew his own head off. Radzinsky is also the guy who started drawing the blast door map.
Kelvin also shows up in one of Sayid's flashbacks. He was a US military dude.
quote:Its possible but unlikely since no one on the island has ever had cancer before.
Is it also possible that Ben's cancer could be linked to some lingering radiation on the island?
quote:This one has been bothering me too, but I think that it's not so much a question as an unresolved plot thread. I assume it is the DHARMA Initiative making the food drops; after all, it's all DHARMA food. More important is the fact that it implies that DHARMA is still an active organization in 2004 and still has access to the island. (Or did, before it moved.) I'm willing to accept all this at face value as long as the 2004+ DHARMA initiative is a player next season.
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
1) Who made the food drops for the hatch after the Dharma initiative on the island was wiped out?
quote:To me, that's a pretty big plot hole. Supposedly (according to Eloise Hawking, at least), pushing the button is very important. She refers to it as "saving the world".
Why didn't the Others try to take over the Swan station? Didn't they know about it? Was it too well fortified? Perhaps they just didn't want to have to take on the responsibility to keep pushing the button or maybe Jacob told them to leave it alone. But in the grand scheme of things, I could live a full and happy life never knowing the answer to this one.
quote:I think Esau was named after the Biblical
Originally posted by Armoth:
I kind of don't like the name Esau for this reason. Because I think Esau has good intentions - he is inclined to protect the Island and its purity.
quote:Hey Armoth, quick request, can you quote what you're talking about when you reference someone's post? Particularly if it's been a while. I had to go scour.
Originally posted by Armoth:
I find it interesting that no one is focusing all that much on the point Camus raised above.
To me, that is the most interesting.
If you all remember our speculations in the early seasons - we all thought that these people were brought here fore a reason. To make amends. Jinn had to fix problems in his life. Charlie, John, Jack, Kate, Sawyer - they were all brought together to make amends. To change and grow.
As the story zoomed out, we lost sight of that. But the writers seem to be steering us back there.
quote:I actually did reply with this:
I interpreted this exchange as being about humanity and the inevitable end of the world as predicted by the Valenzetti Equation and their differing attitudes towards it.
Jacob believes that the numbers can change, that humans (the variables) can change their destiny while the other guy, Esau, feels otherwise. Therefore, Jacob is trying to prove Esau wrong by bringing people to the island to change the outcome, to show that humans are still capable of progress. And that is why Jacob offered Ben a choice, to highlight that humans can choose their destiny.
quote:but now that i'm reading over his post again, i realize I interpreted wrong. For some reason i first read that as camus talking about a metaphorical connection to the numbers in the valenzetti equation, and didn't pay attention to the literal one. i'm glad you pointed it out, because I think that's really spot on. And I see now that my response is still accurate, but mine is now the metaphorical connection to what's actually taking place. Or maybe a bit of both...like psychology and neuroscience. two ways of describing the same thing.
camus, I had a similar interpretation, but more along the lines of the Island as a metaphor for heaven, paradise, the garden of Eden. And that Jacob has faith that humanity is worthy of this place, and Esau believes that humans are irredeemable and will always corrupt and destroy. Yes, choosing their own path is extremely important to Jacob, because he believes they can choose the proper path, like Rose and Bernard have done. They are at peace. I thought their invitation to Juliet was interesting since she is the one that blew up the bomb in the end.
quote:Yes, he was.
Originally posted by Armoth:
Im aware. But the biblical Esau wasn't a very good person.
quote:
The statue was confirmed by ABC to depict Taweret, and has since been confirmed again by the solution to a puzzle in the May 2009 issue of Wired magazine, which was edited by Lost co-creator J.J. Abrams.