Do you pronounce Colonel "Call-len-all" or "Kernal"
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
Kernal.
Except when I'm trying to be silly. But when I do that, I pronounce everything wrong.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Good I thought so...
And THANK YOU!
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
I'm curious, how do y'all pronounce lieutenant?
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
Loo TEN ent
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
loo-Ten-ent
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
Unless you're British. Then it's lef-ten-ent.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yeah, but they say "aluminium". They's weird.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
I say both of those the "weird" way, and I'm not British.
Posted by aiua (Member # 7825) on :
Is it true that a car tire in the States is a car tyre across the pond?
Posted by ReikoDemosthenes (Member # 6218) on :
And if you pronounce it wrong you go to gaol.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick: I say both of those the "weird" way, and I'm not British.
You're Canadian, neh?
Just as bad.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Aussies say "leftenent" too. Don't know about "aluminium."
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
... I thought leftenent was a different military position. Also, can anyone case some etymological/etc information on that crazy crazy pronunciation?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:The Oxford English Dictionary Quoteth:
ORIGIN late Middle English : from Old French (see lieu , tenant ). USAGE In the normal British pronunciation of lieutenant, the first syllable sounds like lef. In the standard U.S. pronunciation, the first syllable, in contrast, sounds like loo. It is difficult to explain where the f in the British pronunciation comes from. Probably, at some point before the 19th century, the u at the end of Old French lieu was read and pronounced as a v, and the v later became an f.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Where did "lieu" come from? I checked etymoline, and and said it came from Latin locus. French baffles me.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I'm going to take a leap and say it is related to the indefinite article le. Tenant, the present participle of tenir in French is from the Latin: tenere , one possible translation being "to hold."
In summary, Lieutenant comes from French, which possibly combines the indefinite article with the word for "holding", which might have taken its original meaning as "the holder," or some weaker form of "leader."
Then the British, in their insufferable way, changed the spelling of the u to a v, which in the past in Britain was pronounced as an unvoiced fricative "f," thus deriving "leftenant."
This is somewhat supported by the continuing differences in British pronunciations of fricatives voices and unvoiced, such as the predominantly northern shift to a voiced fricative when following a closed vowel, such as "mother," which is changed to "muva"
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Aussies say "leftenent" too. Don't know about "aluminium."
We definately say "aluminium". Because it's the right way. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Poor imogen. Brain still scrambled from having the baby.
*pat pat*
*FLEE*
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
I've read many a lengthy debate on the aluminum vs. aluminium. As far as I've learned aluminium was the accepted spelling among chemists and such in britain and even in america, but when it began to become a common word as aluminum was actually being used for lots of things (i.e. it was not more expensive than gold) the dictionaries (one of them at least) in america put in Aluminum instead of aluminium and then reporters referring to that dictionary began repeating aluminum. And that's the story of aluminum as I know it.
Except that the most popular American dictionary has always spelled it aluminum.
As well it should. Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I'm going to take a leap and say it is related to the indefinite article le.
That is quite a leap, especially considering that "lieu" is a common French word.
Posted by AirLightTimeSpace (Member # 11806) on :
quote:Originally posted by imogen:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Aussies say "leftenent" too. Don't know about "aluminium."
We definately say "aluminium". Because it's the right way.
I have to give it to whoever's responsible for the American pronunciation, because it is closer to the Latin pronunciation than yours.
But your way is more fun to me. I take fun over correctness.
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
quote:I'm going to take a leap and say it is related to the indefinite article le. Tenant, the present participle of tenir in French is from the Latin: tenere , one possible translation being "to hold."
In summary, Lieutenant comes from French, which possibly combines the indefinite article with the word for "holding", which might have taken its original meaning as "the holder," or some weaker form of "leader."
Good guess.
From wiki:
quote:The word lieutenant derives from French; the lieu meaning "place" as in a position; and tenant meaning "holding" as in "holding a position"; thus a "lieutenant" is somebody who holds a position in the absence of his or her superior (compare the cognate Latin locum tenens).
Of course, I like to be non-conformist so I'll say that I pronounce it Loitnant, and stick to that since no one's actually heard me say otherwise. Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
quote:Originally posted by T:man: Do you pronounce Colonel "Call-len-all" or "Kernal"
quote:Originally posted by Javert: Kernal.
Except when I'm trying to be silly. But when I do that, I pronounce everything wrong.
Unless the Colonel in question is Superman.
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
This brings back the protocol that we used in the air force band. We called all officers Colonel(ke nal, swallow the r, rhymes with tunnel)unless they were obviously a clueless Lieutenant (latenen), in which case you didn't bother to speak to them at all. That way,you had two chances of being right. And if the person were a Captain or a Major, they would be flattered that you thought them imposing enough to have been promoted early. If they really were a General, they would obviously think that they appeared as young and virile as they used to be. If you absolutly had to speak to a Lieutenant, like to get paid, you called him Captain (cap'n)
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by imogen:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Aussies say "leftenent" too. Don't know about "aluminium."
We definately say "aluminium". Because it's the right way.
In fact no, the discoverer of the element himself originally called it "alumum." Many parties pointed out that this upset the "ium" pattern of sodium, cadmium, radium, etc. He then altered the spelling to aluminium. For whatever reason however, he then altered it a third time, this time branding it "aluminum," possibly because this spelling maintains the original emphasis on the "u" sounds, as in "illuminate," and because "aluminum" is less cluttered by repeated sounds. American publishers dutifully adopted the new spelling, whereas British publishers mostly did not.
That is why today there are two alternate spellings. Both were at the suggestion of the original inventor, and both are correct.
I have posted scores of times, and will continue to reiterate that English is not and never has been a standardized language, and as such "correct" in the context of English only applies to the standards any entity or organization or self-defined group sets for itself. This quality is a strength inasmuch as it is a source of continuing conflict, but the plain fact of the matter is that "aluminium" is no *more* correct than "aluminum," except where the context or participants of the discussion favor one spelling over another as a group.
In all fairness, since non-rhotic and non North-American English speakers are the minority on this board, if anything, "aluminium" is *less* correct in this particular context.
You can drive on the left side of the road all you want, but when you visit other countries, I bet you don't do that. Now which side is "correct?" I tend to favor the side people are *actually* driving on. My spoken English is peppered with Briticisms, but I use the language that is best for whatever context I am in.
I honestly fear this is something that non-rhotic speakers (in general) especially have a hard time accepting or dealing with. You'd hope that British people, the inheritors of a language that was born out of the necessity of communication among vastly different people, and a people who have continued to maintain those minute differences for generations, would easily grasp the concept of English as a non-standard group of idioms. And yet, you hear these things from Brits and Australians all the time, that they say things "correctly," as if they can agree on a single thing even amongst themselves. The idea is laughable if you've ever actually been to England and met people. Americans have much more to be proud of when it comes to maintaining a commonly intelligible language.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick:
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I'm going to take a leap and say it is related to the indefinite article le.
That is quite a leap, especially considering that "lieu" is a common French word.
Meh, I don't speak French. What is the etimology of "Lieu"?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
"Lieu" has become English as well. As in, "in lieu of".
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Ah yes, of course. I believe it's exclusively a phrasal noun (if that's what you call it, I can't remember the term), or a noun which only appears in one specific context and has no other common uses. We have a lot of french borrowings like that, like entre nous, a la mode, se la vi, but I can't think of another off the top of my head that is paired with an English word. There is "in situ," but that is from Latin, and has multiple meanings. Armistice is another French word with a limited meaning when compared with the anglo synonym, truce. Isn't language fun?
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I'd also like to point out that in Greek, when a diphthong involving the letter 'u' (well, actually just 'au' or 'eu' [also, pardon the transliteration]), the 'u' is pronounced as either a 'v' or an 'f,' depending on the quality of the next letter.
Also, I say "leftenant." By choice. Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
Soo on the topic of dipthongs. How should Hephaestus be pronounced. I hope it's like "Hef-ayees-tuss" but I more commonly hear "hef-ess-tuss" From my class on greek books which I've been taking this semester I'd be inclined to say "Hef-ees-toos."
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