quote:

---

Rabbit, lay off the ad homimen. You are not a credible source for any kind of judgment and it clouds your rhetoric.

It is also like talking to a bratty middle schooler. I'll debate you only if you can restrain from insulting everyone you disagree with.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I generally think of my self as above the fray

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott R:
You were directing that towards me, weren't you, rivka.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott R:
Let's open this discussion up to everyone!

Go ahead. Critique mah postin' style. Or lack thereof.

---

ScottR:
OK.

It sucks. Except when it doesn't.

If you think otherwise you are high.
 

---

Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
 
The Rabbit:

Sometimes you ask a question but use a period to end the sentence. It's pretty grating. Ordinarily I wouldn't point this out, but since you asked, there you have it.

Kwea:

I know you didn't ask for critique, but... I am sincerely looking forward to one of your typically insightful posts, only without any emoticons. Stop hiding behind the grin.

Anyone else?
 

---

Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Do other posters find me abrasive, arrogant or prone to launching ad hominem attacks against anyone who disagrees with me?

I'm trying to decide if I need to generally rework my posting style or if I just need to avoid discussions with certain individuals.

---

quote:

---

That was not however what I was doing in the most recent thread.

Any way, the exchange has made me wonder how much my opinion of myself is inflated over reality.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott R:
Let's open this discussion up to everyone!

Go ahead. Critique mah postin' style. Or lack thereof.

---

You post way too much, and way too little. That is to say, a huge number of posts with no substance. Probably your one-liners are intended to zing. In fact they go flrrt, with a weak flabby sound.
 

---

Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
 
Heh, someone with a posting style as opinionated as Lisa?

Yeah right!

What do you think of my posting style? I believe I am absolutely clueless as to what where the fray is, therefore I can't be in it or above it....
 

---

Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
 
Would someone please critique my unbelievably succinct posting style?
 

---

Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
I've never been able to put my finger on why, but even on issues you care about and/or are well-informed about, I don't think your posts are very persuasive for people who don't already agree with you. I'm not certain of that, because I agree with you on many different things in many different areas, but that's my perception.

I don't have any suggestions for you, because I frequently wrestle with the same problem -- the distinction between conveying my ideas effectively and conveying them persuasively.
 

---

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Asking for a critique of one's posting style in an environment where one's words are the only thing by which a person can be known is essentially asking for a critique of one's self. I'm trying to recall a thread of this type that ended up being a constructive thing, but I'm drawing a blank.
 

---

Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
I don't think your posts are abrasive or prone to ad hominem attacks at all. I do think you stick to some of your opinions very strongly, and are unwilling to bend to different assumptions being made by people who are approaching the debate from the other side. I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily...

But, I will say that I've found that if a Hatracker sticks firmly to a position on a controversial issue and won't bend on it, it's pretty common to eventually be accused of ad hominems or some other forum crime. It's happened to me, it's happened to posters more civil than me, and it's happened to posters less civil than me. I think the reason is just frustration.
 

---

Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike:
The Rabbit:


Kwea:

I know you didn't ask for critique, but... I am sincerely looking forward to one of your typically insightful posts, only without any emoticons. Stop hiding behind the grin.

Anyone else?

---

Don't hold your breath.
 

---

Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Noemon:
Asking for a critique of one's posting style in an environment where one's words are the only thing by which a person can be known is essentially asking for a critique of one's self. I'm trying to recall a thread of this type that ended up being a constructive thing, but I'm drawing a blank.

---

Noemon, you expressed perfectly what I was struggling to find a way to say.
 

---

Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
 
The Rabbit, you do seem rather opinionated. Usually it seems like people who come across that way don't mind coming across that way. I've always assumed you are aware of this and don't mind it. (Just like T:man doesn't mind coming across as somewhat clueless. )

I haven't noticed any unusual propensity for personal attacks, but if you think your buttons have been pushed on occasion, you should probably expect those occasions to contribute to collective perception of your style. A single post that consists of a personal attack will probably affect your reputation more than a dozen thoughtful, calm posts will. As I said I don't think you're unusually nasty or anything, but when I think about your posting style, as you've invited me to do here, the thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is a recent portion of a kerfluffle in the Sarah Palin thread. I realize you've posted volumes to offset that lapse, but I'm being honest about what comes to mind. It takes an effort to put things in perspective; without that effort the recent spat has an outsized impact on my perceptions.

Generally speaking, I think we simply can't allow our buttons to be pushed with any regularity if we want to be, either in practice or in reputation, "above the fray." Lapses can and do fade from memory, but they have to be rare indeed in order not to color current interactions. Given that sincerity, sarcasm, and humor are all unreliably transmitted, it's near impossible to stay above in reputation.

I think we can all do better. We should practice trying not to give needless offense, trying to fit the most charitable interpretation of others' posts, and retracting our sore spots from public access, at least when doing so doesn't cost us significantly.

That being said, I want to point out that Scott R's posting style is needlessly flashy and indicative of vainglorious delusions.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

---

I'm trying to recall a thread of this type that ended up being a constructive thing, but I'm drawing a blank.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:
...and steve are two others.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomDavidson:
For what it's worth, I think you've become a lot more brittle over the last couple of years, and considerably less tolerant of disagreement. You're nowhere near the worst of us, mind you, but I've been aware for a while now that if I'm posting to disagree with you, I'm probably going to be indirectly insulted.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
And, Rabbit, I think you post a heck of a recipe, even though you are one of the most intolerant (to gluten) people I know.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Noemon:
Asking for a critique of one's posting style in an environment where one's words are the only thing by which a person can be known is essentially asking for a critique of one's self. I'm trying to recall a thread of this type that ended up being a constructive thing, but I'm drawing a blank.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I think it's generally better to never consider yourself "above the fray," not least because that's just one very short step from being "above (the) hoi polloi."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Noemon:
Asking for a critique of one's posting style in an environment where one's words are the only thing by which a person can be known is essentially asking for a critique of one's self. I'm trying to recall a thread of this type that ended up being a constructive thing, but I'm drawing a blank.

---

I was also genuinely concerned that I might be become to obnoxious and was hoping for some constructive feed back and expecting a few rude comments which gladly hasn't happened yet.

---

quote:

---

Since cats were removed from Macquarie Island, rabbit numbers have soared, and the animals are now devastating plants.
Cats previously kept a check on rabbits but were eradicated because they were also eating seabirds, scientists relate in the Journal of Applied Ecology.

---

 

---

Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I do find your posting style a bit abrasive sometimes. Whether I find it arrogant generally depends on what subject you are speaking about; sometimes you obviously know way more than me and so it doesn't bother me. It's not arrogance when you flat-out state that you know something, because you do, I suppose. Some times it does come across as pontificating, though. When you seem to make assumptions I don't find valid and think that you know more than others about a subject but don't, that's when I find it arrogant. Happily, at least in the threads that I read, that is not often.

Of course, I'd say we all probably fall into these traps some of the time.

And, in you, it is tempered by a good sense of humor and a generosity of spirit that some here lack.

So I'd say, on the whole, you're not any worse than most of us here, and I include myself in that. We all have our moments of abrasiveness or arrogance, and I'm prone to forgive them since I have them too.

I hope that my post didn't hurt you. I wavered a long time between posting or not posting it. It is only my perception of your posts and should be taken with about 2 cups of salt, of course.
 

---

Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Thanks KQ. When I ask for constructive criticism, I really was looking for some and I'm certainly not hurt by your honest answer.

Two cups of salt is enough to choke a horse, I prefer only a few grains myself.
 

---

Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
 

quote:

---

I'll try to use the question mark more often if nothing else.

---

Thank you, thank you, thank you!
 

---

Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Dissolve the salt in ketchup and it's more palatable.
 

---

Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwea:
Don't hold your breath.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I'll try to use the question mark more often if nothing else.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JonHecht:
Would someone please critique my unbelievably succinct posting style?

---

quote:

---

Do other posters find me abrasive, arrogant or prone to launching ad hominem attacks against anyone who disagrees with me?

---

quote:

---

I've thought very carefully how to say this. I am leaving aside personal issues.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SteveRogers:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa:
...and steve are two others.

---

This doesn't mean me, does it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
I, for one, am not above the fray.


I AM the fray. And you should all be very very afrayed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwea:
Don't hold your breath.

---

Because it kills brain cells?

---

Yeah, you're probably right. It's WAY too late for either of us to start worrying about THAT.




 

---

Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
It's too bad. I made a good point that might be helpful to you if you'd deign to listen.

---

quote:

---

I AM the fray. And you should all be very very afrayed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:

quote:

---

I've thought very carefully how to say this. I am leaving aside personal issues.

---

Don't. When you said you did not find me "a credible source of judgement on any issue" you made your point. I don't need any more criticism from you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orincoro:

quote:

---

Do other posters find me abrasive, arrogant or prone to launching ad hominem attacks against anyone who disagrees with me?

---

I think this is pretty much the basis of the big reality distortion field that can occur in a forum, especially one like this with a lot of regulars. If you just remember that, unlike IRL, you are *only* ever posting in response to something, unless you are posting a thread opener, in which case you are not, but are unlikely to argue any point in any particulars.

Now, the basis of all our interaction is responsive to other posts, on the basis of other posts and the people who make them, in the context of a discussion, and in the greater context of our experience on the forum, and *lastly* our experience in other aspects of our lives. That isn't always true, but it seems to mostly be true. So, the quality of your interactions is double-edged. You will necessarily be more opinionated, more one sided, more set in your opinions than if you were dealing with a real life relationship, because a real life relationship is more dynamic, more based on common experience (because you know each other), and fed by body language and facial expression.

It was something I noticed here that actually changed my outlook in real life interactions, and changed the way I thought of myself in either context. Someone called me arrogant, and I believe ignorant (in the sense of willful ignorance or narrow mindedness). I talked to a friend about it. To my complete surprise, this very close friend said that it was mostly true. W"hy are you still my friend then?" I ask, somewhat embarrassed. She says, "because you really are a good person." She told me that what she had initially perceived as arrogance and superiority has not exactly gone away, but along with it, her experience with me had deepened to the point that she had begun to appreciate other aspects of my personality. My ability to listen, my generosity and kindness, my intense curiosity and my idealistic nature were all things she really liked about me. The arrogance thing didn't factor for her once it was a known facet of my personality- the behavior was still there, but it was "less real," to the point that it wasn't an irritant, it was just the way I talked. She even pointed out that I probably used my initial interactions with people to establish who I actually liked, and who I knew I wouldn't enjoy spending time with. She said that there were people who didn't like me based on things that she knew not to be true- like the idea that I believed I was smarter than they were, when she knew that wasn't the case. This was very interesting, because it occurred to me that the people I actually liked most were the ones who I probably didn't hit it off with right away- and the people I absolutely disliked were the ones who took that initial reaction, and continued to react with that same facet of my personality forever- making me feel like I was stuck in a tango with them that would never transcend into actual mutual respect.

Good or bad, these things seem pretty true to me IRL. Now, on Hatrack, I don't know how these qualities tranfer at all. You are constantly making first impressions, changing impressions, you are dealing with a substantive history where people actually remember the exact things you have said to them, even if you don't remember. You also lack all manner of useful cues to signal a shift in your relationship with someone that *you* perceive, and maybe they don't agree. I suppose I shouldn't sit and spell out all the ways that communicating in written chunks is different from real-time dialogue, but the difference is there, and it's hugely significant- and we are increasingly likely to forget that fact from time to time, the more we post.

There isn't anyone, but *anyone* here that I don't think I could talk and relate to in person, and probably with good results. We are all here because of common interests, after all, so the divide between people is magnified, when in the greater scope of things, we would be classed together by any truly outside observer.

---

quote:

---

It was something I noticed here that actually changed my outlook in real life interactions, and changed the way I thought of myself in either context. Someone called me arrogant, and I believe ignorant (in the sense of willful ignorance or narrow mindedness). I talked to a friend about it. To my complete surprise, this very close friend said that it was mostly true. W"hy are you still my friend then?" I ask, somewhat embarrassed. She says, "because you really are a good person."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by natural_mystic:
Rabbit, I enjoy your longer posts. You occasionally post one liners saying things like ``this makes no sense." The sentiment is fine, but an additional explanatory sentence would be good so the original poster can clarify as needed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
One more thought on the academic culture. In academia its pretty standard for people to counter arrogance with more arrogance. If you sense someone is condescending to you, you are even more condescending to them. I've seen some pretty brutal arrogance wars in academia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by natural_mystic:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
One more thought on the academic culture. In academia its pretty standard for people to counter arrogance with more arrogance. If you sense someone is condescending to you, you are even more condescending to them. I've seen some pretty brutal arrogance wars in academia.

---

Hehe... I have some fantastic stories of my academic 'grandfather' as far as arrogance goes. One of the more amusing is the following: back in the 80s he (allegedly) initially refused an award including a cash prize equivalent to US$200000 when he was informed that he would be taxed on it by the donor country. Apparently some businessmen subsequently agreed to pay the tax for him.

---

quote:

---

I doubt anyone could get a PhD without having absolutely confidence that they no more than anyone in the world about their specialty and being able to respond confidently to challenges to their work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by scifibum:
I think it's "steven."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
It's too bad. I made a good point that might be helpful to you if you'd deign to listen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by foundling:

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
It's too bad. I made a good point that might be helpful to you if you'd deign to listen.

---

I hereby nominate this post for Ironic Post of the Year.

Kat, you've never once, in the entire time I've been watching you post, admitted somebody might be right who was making a point contrary to your own. Not once. And I've been on this and other forums for years (hawkin on sake).
I think one of the reasons you and Rabbit (and Mr Squicky, and Tom) butt heads so frequently is because you're both equally convinced of your ineffable rightness. The difference being that The Rabbit has a set of ideas that she is knowledgeable about, and within that set is almost dogmatic in her opinions. You, on the other hand, can be dogmatic about anything and everything you choose to discuss. Regardless of the validity of the point someone is making, if your mind is set against it there is no convincing you otherwise.
I can only imagine your response if you had posted a similar thread and The Rabbit had tried to contribute in the same way you did.
Of course, I have an extremely difficult time imagining you posting a thread along these lines, as it would imply an awareness of a need for change in your dealings with others that I honestly don't think you have.

I admire Rabbits ability to acknowledge a need for change, based on nothing more than a couple of contentious interactions that she could easily have written off as being your fault. Regardless of any claims of arrogance, it requires humility to be able to honestly solicit the opinions of others in an effort to improve ones ability to communicate. It’s a process I think you could greatly benefit from.

Unsolicited advice, which you are free to ignore, of course. But there is a common factor in every single major brouhaha that you’ve been involved in involving the exact same style of tit-for-tat nastiness over the years.

---

It is my personal opinion that this post would have been better left unwritten.

Kat has been polite in this thread and didn't ask for your opinion on her posting style.
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Ela, agreed.
 

---

Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
The Rabbit:
I'd say you sometimes come off as opinionated, but then, don't we all?

What I find curious is that when compared to some other posters, I suddenly find your posting innocent and refreshing, full of kindness and a simple joy that harkens back to the halcyon days of youth.

If you can entice them to post in all your discussions, you'll look like an angel in comparison
 

---

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
Rabbit, you always seem the soul of wisdom and perspective to me. You speak the truth with plainness. I don't see anything wrong with your posting style. But then, I'm a female liberal Mormon engineer and scientist, like yourself, so maybe it's not surprising we communicate well.
 

---

Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Ela, I agree.
 

---

Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ela:
Kat has been polite in this thread and didn't ask for your opinion on her posting style.

---

The operative words being "in this thread", right? Kat's dug her own grave on this issue, IMO. And this is the internet - you don't have to ask for an opinion to be given one. If you give out information about yourself, it's in the public domain to be discussed.
 

---

Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jhai:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ela:
Kat has been polite in this thread and didn't ask for your opinion on her posting style.

---

The operative words being "in this thread", right? Kat's dug her own grave on this issue, IMO. And this is the internet - you don't have to ask for an opinion to be given one. If you give out information about yourself, it's in the public domain to be discussed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ela:
It is my personal opinion that this post would have been better left unwritten.

Kat has been polite in this thread and didn't ask for your opinion on her posting style.

---

I can understand that. I debated its appropriatness in this thread, or anywhere else. It might have been more appropriate in a thread not started by The Rabbit for a specific purpose.

However, I felt the politeness exhibited by Kat in this thread was barbed, at best, and it didn't really prohibit me from posting my opinion on her handling of this situation in particular and situations similar to it. I also don't think opinions about other posters styles only belong in threads started by those posters soliciting such opinions. It's certainly not a standard hatrack seems to hold most to.

I acknowledge it's unsolicited nature, and don't really expect anything from it. It might be read, it might not. It's just something that pops into my head on a regular basis when reading Kats posts dealing with people she disagrees with.
And since I dont hate Kat, quite the contrary actually, and think she might benefit from hearing a relatively "unbiased" opinion on how she comes off in altercations, I don't see it as inappropriate.

We all hear unsolicited advice from others all the time. Most of us have no problem giving unsolicited advice and opinions. Receiving such is another matter entirely.
 

---

Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ela:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jhai:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ela:
Kat has been polite in this thread and didn't ask for your opinion on her posting style.

---

The operative words being "in this thread", right? Kat's dug her own grave on this issue, IMO. And this is the internet - you don't have to ask for an opinion to be given one. If you give out information about yourself, it's in the public domain to be discussed.

---

Please stop. Also, please don't put words in my mouth.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shigosei:
*Looks at ten foot pole*

Hmm, nope. Not long enough.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I should probably avoid everything but the fluff threads for a while but I rarely enjoy the fluff.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ela:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shigosei:
*Looks at ten foot pole*

Hmm, nope. Not long enough.

---

For the record, this made me laugh out loud.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dkw:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I should probably avoid everything but the fluff threads for a while but I rarely enjoy the fluff.

---

Time for a new recipe challenge!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

---

I'm trying to recall a thread of this type that ended up being a constructive thing, but I'm drawing a blank.

---

The "Who is AntiCool and why the crap is he playing these stupid games?" thread ended up being constructive, I think.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
I've thought very carefully how to say this. I am leaving aside personal issues.

I think that when one is used to getting respect for what they have written when they are the expert and have been careful, it becomes natural to believe that what one writes is worthy of respect by default. I think that sometimes you are not careful when you write and you are not always the expert on the topics you talk about, but you still expect that same kind of treatment you get when you do and when you are.

The solution is to either be as careful with posts as with your professional activities, or else not to expect the same kind of reception to your posts as to your professional writing.

---

quote:

---

You already heard my feelings about this, and quoted them. Only pinheads get upset about informality online.

We make typos. Sometimes they're funny and we get teased about them. But this is conversation, NOT formal essay writing.

Because the standards are high here people naturally try to look respectable. That's a good thing, but one requiring neither enforcement nor encouragement.

At the same time, people here are (or should be) tolerant of those whose spelling skills are not well-developed, those for whom English is a second language, or those whose native English is a dialect or subset of English with different rules. From what I've seen, that tolerance is pretty well-developed and widespread, and I appreciate it. I'd hate to have anyone think that their lack of mastery of grammar rules disqualified them from taking part as full members of this community.

Especially since I generally find that the people who are most fussy about grammar rules are usually the very ones who have no idea what they're talking about - the ones who have embraced pinheaded, invented "rules" like not ending sentences with prepositions, etc. I've been a copy editor - and a very good one. I see EVERY grammar mistake. And I invariably find them in the writings of people who presume to criticize the grammar of others.

NOBODY speaks or writes without error. You get into a sentence and forgot how you began, so you end it differently (and ungrammatically). So what? In conversation, we forgive things like that all the time. All I was saying was, online postings are treated like a branch of oral conversation - we are informal. We tolerate error as long as sense is clear and the intention is communication.

Let none feel unwelcome because they do not measure up to some arbitrary ruleset on formal language usage! EVERYBODY speaks the grammar of their own dialect PERFECTLY. (And yes, I am deliberately using the plural possessive THEIR with the formerly singular but now felt-as-plural "everybody" because it's more convenient and is long established in common usage.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by King of Men:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott R:
Let's open this discussion up to everyone!

Go ahead. Critique mah postin' style. Or lack thereof.

---

You post way too much, and way too little. That is to say, a huge number of posts with no substance. Probably your one-liners are intended to zing. In fact they go flrrt, with a weak flabby sound.

---

:nods:

Precisely. In fact, I specifically engineer my posts to be empty of meaning and altogether milquetoast.
 

---

Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
I resent that.

HA! YOU LOSE!!
 

---

Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
But he doesn't care.

So I think that means you lose.
 

---

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Jhai is correct. When I referred to being careful, I was not talking about your grammar and spelling.

You mentioned that you have received accolades for formal logic. I am sure that whatever you wrote in order to receive such was more carefully thought out than your posts. For instance, your response to my post. Since there was, at most, ambiguity as to what I was referring to, your post would have made more sense if you either responded to the different possibilities or else asked to clarify the ambiguity before jumping to the wrong conclusion that I was talking about grammar. It not only contained an erroneous interpretation of my point, but also a quoted insult on top of it. I suspect that you wanted to use the quote badly enough that you didn't stop to consider whether it was appropriate. In general, patterns like this means your posts do not have the accuracy and quality you think they do.

That's okay that you aren't careful - heaven knows posting shouldn't be so much work - but it does mean that outside honors are not an accurate reflection of the work you do here. It doesn't matter what you write elsewhere; here, you don't listen and don't respond like a rigorous academic, and therefore should not expect to be treated like one.

[ January 13, 2009, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

---

Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
The key point in Mr Card's post wasn't the bit about grammar and spelling, it was this line.

quote:

---

But this is conversation, NOT formal essay writing.

---

quote:

---

you don't listen and don't respond like a rigorous academic, and therefore should not expect to be treated like one.

---

quote:

---

If you want to be confident like you are in your work, then you have to back it up. If you don't want to spend the effort to back it up, then don't expect to be treated like an expert.

---

The Rabbit spends a remarkable amount of effort to back up her statements, certainly more than one would averagely expect to receive with such consistency on a medium such as an internet forum.

The issue is not that she's substantiated, since she most certainly is, but that you choose not to regard her as such.

Your criteria for making this dismissal is tenuous, at best.
 

---

Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Lobo, I edited that out immediately after I posted it because I decided it was in very poor taste and bad manners. I hoped I was able to catch it before anyone read it. Please do me the favor of deleting it from your post as well.
 

---

Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
To be honest, Rabbit, I think the rudeness has gone both ways.

It makes me very uncomfortable, both to observe it happening and to remark on it.
 

---

Posted by lobo (Member # 1761) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Lobo, I edited that out immediately after I posted it because I decided it was in very poor taste and bad manners. I hoped I was able to catch it before anyone read it. Please do me the favor of deleting it from your post as well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ela:
To be honest, Rabbit, I think the rudeness has gone both ways.

It makes me very uncomfortable, both to observe it happening and to remark on it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lobo:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Lobo, I edited that out immediately after I posted it because I decided it was in very poor taste and bad manners. I hoped I was able to catch it before anyone read it. Please do me the favor of deleting it from your post as well.

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sure thing

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
This may current new item may explain a great deal

quote:

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Since cats were removed from Macquarie Island, rabbit numbers have soared, and the animals are now devastating plants.
Cats previously kept a check on rabbits but were eradicated because they were also eating seabirds, scientists relate in the Journal of Applied Ecology.

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---

I haven't been around long enough to have developed any opinion on your posting style. I will, however, say that our pet rabbits in the past did quite a thorough number on many corners of books, decks of cards, power cords and even some molding.

And instead of a cat taking out rabbit number 3, it was our dog.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Hmm...you're right, lobo. I will rewrite the give.

I will adopt an assumption of good motives and intentions when I read your posts and respond according to the best interpretation I can come up. I will come up with that interpretation as if the post was written by..., say, Kama.

How's that? That's pretty big. Especially the Kama thing.

Hmmm...possibly too big - Kama's a real life friend and I'm probably not capable of living up to it. I'm not sure who else to put in there - perhaps a generic poster-with-whom-I-have-a-positive-posting-history-but-no-personal-relationship.
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 
I am awesome
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
How about if we just avoid all interaction? I'm not feeling very forgiving right now.
 

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Posted by Trent Destian (Member # 11653) on :
 
This feels like my family dinners.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Trent Destian:
This feels like my family dinners.

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quote:

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Originally posted by katharina:


Rabbit,

It is too bad there is this thing. For one thing, it can't be pleasant for you. I know that I would prefer to, for example, be able to post about fake plants without you dropping poison into the thread. What about a do-over? We can start fresh. I won't read your posts with the assumption that the mistakes are there because you don't care about the people you are talking to and respond according to that assumption, and I won't ask for an apology for the times you have admitted to where you goaded and insulted me for fun.

In return, you will cease insulting me and will only comment in the fun threads I start if the comment truly is something you would say at a dinner party with socially-adept colleagues.

What do you think?

---

Translation: I'm sorry you're so bad at this. That must suck! Let's do this: I will pretend that you are not stupid, and I will pretend that I have an ounce of respect for you.

In return, you can be really nice to me and ignore all of the things I say that you don't like, and I will go on just as before, except without having to answer to you on anything.

It'll be a real fresh start!



 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:

quote:

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Originally posted by Trent Destian:
This feels like my family dinners.

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I so sorry.

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Were you going for a Chinese stereotype... because that's how I read it, and I have to admit the absurdity really made me smile.
 

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Posted by The Genuine (Member # 11446) on :
 
When you have that chocolatey pillowfight, please wear white panties.

Judging by your low member numbers, you two probably have too much history for anything else to work.

I'm no expert on forum etiquette, but isn't this thread an uncommonly bold way to call someone you don't like out?
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
It's been done.
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
Speaking of not being an expert on forum etiquette, Jesse, stop the pillowfight bullshit. It's not appropriate here.
 

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Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
 
Not that I'm a seasoned veteran, but this looks like one of the more mature online squabbles that I've seen...
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
I think the first half of your sentence informs the second half.
 

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Posted by The Genuine (Member # 11446) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by ElJay:
Speaking of not being an expert on forum etiquette, Jesse, stop the pillowfight bullshit. It's not appropriate here.

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Posted by lobo (Member # 1761) on :
 
ElJay,

I assume that The Genuine = Jesse?

I think form etiquette requires that you call him/her by his/her posted name so that the rest of us don't get confused.

Also, etiquette requires that you not cuss. Potty mouth.

Also, pillowfights by attractive women are ALWAYS appropriate...
 

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Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
 
What we really need here is Michael Jackson eating popcorn.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:

quote:

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Originally posted by Trent Destian:
This feels like my family dinners.

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I so sorry.

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Were you going for a Chinese stereotype... because that's how I read it, and I have to admit the absurdity really made me smile.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ela:
And I see you also edited the remark I commented on, Rabbit, making my remark seem random. It was not.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I'm afraid that's a bit of the Trini dialect showing through, not chinese.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ela:
And I see you also edited the remark I commented on, Rabbit, making my remark seem random. It was not.

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Sorry Ela, I wasn't trying to make you look bad. I was just posting while teetering on the edge of control. I'd teeter a bit too much one way and post something nasty, and then teeter back the other way a little and delete it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by katharina:

How's that? That's pretty big...

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
How about if we just avoid all interaction?

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Genuine:
How come MightyCow can talk about cupcakes and I can't talk about pillowfights?

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Because I'm awesome.
 

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Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
 
I suggest Hello Cupcake for all your cupcake needs.
 

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Posted by The Genuine (Member # 11446) on :
 

 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Genuine:
Judging by your low member numbers, you two probably have too much history for anything else to work.

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quote:

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I'm no expert on forum etiquette, but isn't this thread an uncommonly bold way to call someone you don't like out?

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quote:

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Originally posted by katharina:
Sam (and hawkin/foundling), the howling of jackals is not interesting to me.

If you want my attention, you'll have to wait until you say something I want to converse with you about.

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That's an unintelligent statement. I know you'll read my posts, such as I have easily had 'your attention' towards my last post; whether or not you have the wherewithal or capacity to defend it — as opposed to puerile dismissal of it as the 'howling of jackals' — is your concern alone.

You're still not ignoring it, and I'm still right
 

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Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 
You are a boon for the community, Doc, don't sweat it.
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
Absolutely! I really hope nothing here serves to alienate Dr. Rabbit from Hatrack, because in my opinion she's one of our best and brightest of all time. Or for the amount of time I've been around, anyway.

Lesser lights have come and gone, but Dr. Rabbit has been a steady beacon of smarts and sense for all seasons. (OK, no more alliteration, I promise.)

What ever happened to the "Ask Dr. Rabbit" thread. That was one of my very favorites. Anyone still have a copy?
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Noemon:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I'm afraid that's a bit of the Trini dialect showing through, not chinese.

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That's interesting, Rabbit. To what degree do you find yourself adopting the local dialect? What about accent?

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I have relatively recently recognized that I naturally pick up a little bit of anyones accent when I'm talking with them. Its not enough to pass as a local, but its enough to obscure my own native dialect. As a result, people can never figure out where I'm from. People are always asking me where I'm from and telling me I don't sound like I'm from the states.

I've also started noticing some Trini dialect slipping into my speech. It was particularly evident while I was in the states over Christmas. The funny thing is that I can't mimic either the accent or the dialect if I try, but it still slips in to conversations when I'm not trying.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
While I would prefer an active truce, if leaving each other alone means I can post fluff threads without being barfed on, then I'll take it. Done.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Let's talk about me more. I'm much more enthralling than anyone else here, because I'm so aloof.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Not aloof enough to not post, more's the pity.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Well, I like to tantalize.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:
Well, they wouldn't exactly call it condescension if it wasn't perceptible, and therefore probably unjust. It's exceedingly ironic that someone who complains about elitism and perceived exclusion through other people's use of language and attitude would stoop to intentionally provoking people by creating the sense of a status distance in which that person is assumed (in their language) to be possessing of knowledge or status above that of the other. That is the basis of condescension of course, that the speaker implies a social (or academic or other) distance between themselves and the one they are speaking to, and most often this is done with the intention of provocation, or at least the establishment (in both people's minds) of superiority.

On the flip side, the same person, so overly concerned with perceived status and social distance will also read the language of others as an attempt at or indication of the same thing. They will react by either playing to the "elevated" language by topping the original speaker n some way (such as demanding copious sourcing, or questioning the speaker's authority). The other common move is to simply flip the perception of social distance against the person "putting on airs" or being "elitist," and implying that this person is, in reality, of a lower social status (lower than the status that *matters*), and is pretending to a position of greater power.

I think, for one, that a person who can't relate to an "elitist" is as guilty of false assumptions as the elitist may be- at least in that person's estimation. Most of the time, social distance makes itself apparent in ways other than speech, but of course, and again, that doesn't happen as much here.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by katharina:
While I would prefer an active truce, if leaving each other alone means I can post fluff threads without being barfed on, then I'll take it. Done.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scott R:
Well, I like to torture.

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quote:

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I will agree to avoid posting anything directly referring or responding to you and you will either simply avoid reading my posts or agree to assume that nothing I say is referring to or responding to you.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kwea:

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott R:
Well, I like to torture.

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Fixed that for you!

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Meh. Others like it more.
 

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Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
 

 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 

quote:

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I sure that's my fault and is becoming I'm and insensitive human being, but that doesn't change the fact that I really honestly can't tell what will set you off.

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quote:

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You seem to be referring to the thread link I posted above. I admit that I was definitely involved in an arrogance war with kat in that thread and appreciate the irony of my complaining about her being condescending in that circumstance. It really wasn't necessary or productive of me to keep needling her the way I did. Its just so tempting. My part in that whole battle is likely a bit of academic culture that I really should try to curb here.

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Ok, yes, I was doing a lot of "this person says to that person, which this (the latter) thinks of this person is what the other person thinks of another.... blah blah blah"

Essentially, if you can cut through my circumlocations, I was saying that: A) condescension is an attempt to establish superiority over another in that person's mind, or in the minds of observers. B) A person who often feels condescended *to*, may in fact be more concerned with the appearance of status than the person who is allegedly condescending (the condescedent?). C) A person with a low sense of status, or with a mixed sense of status (such as a person who feels superior, but is overly sensitive to issues of status in a given situation), will in turn condescend in order to establish their own social status, and in *their own terms*.

I was not referring to either of your behavior in the linked thread, as I only skimmed it, and don't recall it from its original appearance. I was talking a little more generally, but also about the recent thread in which the whole issue came up.

Plus, we've had a version of the same conflict in a grand way on this forum for years and years. OSC is a textbook definition of a person with a mixed sense of status- so are a lot of very creative people, I'm sure.

To expand, I think you have a firm sense of status, and this probably comes from a mixture of things- your upbringing, inherent personality, your current social and professional standing, etc. I think Kat has a mixed sense of status, or at least displays a mixed sense of status, and is overly concerned with the portrayal of her thinking or position in the words of others. This manifests itself, interestingly, in a defiant attitude towards genuine criticism, and a belief that one's own words and thoughts are above misrepresentation- therefore inviting a sense of insult if a person is disagreed with on basic assumptions. I think the reason this happens is that parties involved are unaware of the stake that each invests in their side of the argument- one feels secure and comfortable in with the vagaries of his/her moral standing (admitting uncertainty that there is a genuinely "right" position), while the other does not, and so seeks to represent their position as being founded on bedrock moral principles, at the expense of openness to contradiction.

On the other hand, I could be wrong...
 

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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 

quote:

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It is however not elitist to give more respect to someone's opinion on climate change because they have spent years studying and gaining expertise in the issue.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Noemon:

quote:

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I sure that's my fault and is becoming I'm and insensitive human being, but that doesn't change the fact that I really honestly can't tell what will set you off.

---

The first half of this sentence strikes me as a good example of why some modicum of respect for the conventions of a language's grammar is a good thing. I perceive what you're trying to say in the same way that I'm able to "see" things without my glasses--fuzzily and indistinctly.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:

I've also started noticing some Trini dialect slipping into my speech. It was particularly evident while I was in the states over Christmas. The funny thing is that I can't mimic either the accent or the dialect if I try, but it still slips in to conversations when I'm not trying.

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quote:

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In the context of a debate on an issue, respecting an opinion means you give it its due treatment: If you reject it, you provide good reasons for rejecting it. If a person holds that belief, you don't consider them foolish for holding it. And you give it real consideration. That's what it is to respect an opinion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I have relatively recently recognized that I naturally pick up a little bit of anyones accent when I'm talking with them. Its not enough to pass as a local, but its enough to obscure my own native dialect. As a result, people can never figure out where I'm from. People are always asking me where I'm from and telling me I don't sound like I'm from the states.

---

quote:

---

It's also common in Czenglish to substitute the usage of the word "after," or "in" for the usage of "before," when talking about lengths of time, such as "we will have lunch before 2 hours," or "you will get there before 30 minutes." I honestly think this has something to do with the reliability of the Czech transportation system, because SO many people take public transport, and need to arrive places on time, or "before" a certain length of time elapses. A trip can take 15 minutes or 25 minutes, but a person will tell you "before 25 minute," and this is telling you the upper limit.

---

The actual reason for this is that people are translating literally from Czech (thinking in Czech but using English words). The preposition "do" in time constructions as you described can mean before that time, by that time, until that time and a few others [edit: or within that time, as in your examples], and it is simply easy to mix up for those who don't speak English well. Creative reasoning you came up with though.
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tresopax:
[QUOTE]In my view, it makes sense to trust expert opinions more than non-expert opinions, but both expert and non-expert opinions should be respected. If you disrespect a person's belief just because they are not an expert, then I think that is elitism... even if that belief is considered wrong by experts.

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quote:

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I do not like, do not appreciate, and consider invasive and rude attempts by strangers on an internet forum to pop-analyze myself.

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In general...

Tru dat, yo. Straight up.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
It's probably a symptom of something deeply wrong with her.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Oh, good hell.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lissande:

quote:

---

It's also common in Czenglish to substitute the usage of the word "after," or "in" for the usage of "before," when talking about lengths of time, such as "we will have lunch before 2 hours," or "you will get there before 30 minutes." I honestly think this has something to do with the reliability of the Czech transportation system, because SO many people take public transport, and need to arrive places on time, or "before" a certain length of time elapses. A trip can take 15 minutes or 25 minutes, but a person will tell you "before 25 minute," and this is telling you the upper limit.

---

The actual reason for this is that people are translating literally from Czech (thinking in Czech but using English words). The preposition "do" in time constructions as you described can mean before that time, by that time, until that time and a few others [edit: or within that time, as in your examples], and it is simply easy to mix up for those who don't speak English well. Creative reasoning you came up with though.

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quote:

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Originally posted by katharina:

It is also a time-honored method of precisely the kind of jockeying for power that you mention. I'd rather not consider you the same way I consider other people who try to analyze me for their own benefit. Since yesterday you were swearing at me, you are also hardly unbiased or in any position to claim nuetrality here.

Please delete my name and references to me. You do not have enough information or enough goodwill to warrant such an intrusion or analysis.

This the polite version of the request.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by TomDavidson:
It's probably a symptom of something deeply wrong with her.

---

 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
That's too bad, Orincoro. You had a chance to honor a polite request. That you refuse is revealing, as is the post that comes after.

How about you turn that penlight you are flailing about on yourself. What would you say about someone who refuses to cease committing, rude, intrusive, flawed acts on someone who asked them politely to stop? Any theories? What if that person the day before had needed to be chastised for swearing at the same person? Any speculation as to that person's true motives and character?

[ January 14, 2009, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 

quote:

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I think we have a fundamental disagreement on this subject. If some one holds an opinion that is contradicted by scientifically established facts, I do consider them foolish for holding it.

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quote:

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Offering my view based on what I have observed is intrusive?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scott R:

quote:

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Offering my view based on what I have observed is intrusive?

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Yes, it can be.

This is why parents get embarassed by children who scream out, "Mommy, look at that lady! She's so FAT!"

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott R:

quote:

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I do not like, do not appreciate, and consider invasive and rude attempts by strangers on an internet forum to pop-analyze myself.

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In general...

Tru dat, yo. Straight up.

---

The part I disagree with is that we are strangers. You and Tom and Kat and I and many others have been in this forum for 8 years or more. We've read thousands of things written by the other on dozens of different topics. I think we know each other very well. Certainly that knowledge isn't complete, but that certainly doesn't make us strangers. How many people are there in the world who know the complete you? I think people on this forum know me better than most people in my real life.

You may not behave exactly the same here as you do with your wife. But you probably don't behave exactly the same at work as you do at church or in your home. Different environments bring out different aspects of our personalities, but all those aspects are valid parts of us. Just because we know each other through an internet forum rather than a club doesn't make our knowledge of each other less real.

I know that it can be easy to pretend to be someone you're not on the internet, but it is really hard to play that character for an extended length of time. In this respect, it's not all that different from real life. In fact one of our long time members recently discovered that her boyfriend (of several years?) was not who or what he had pretended to be.

If you are just playing a character on this forum that you don't think is at all like the real you, then there is really no reason to take offense at peoples attacks. They don't know anything about the real you, they are just attacking a character. Otherwise, I think its disingenuous to claim we are strangers.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
Scott doesn't think you can ever get to know someone through this medium. At least, not well enough to be allowed to judge them on anything.

It's ridiculous, I know, but he's quite adamant about it.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Having had relationships of all kinds with many people that started on the Internet first, I am firmly convinced that online interactions only count for online interactions, and that all bets are off until you have a relationship in person.

I am absolutely not saying that online interactions don't mean anything, but you don't really know each other until you get together and get along in person. Years of online to in-person interactions have only reinforced that, not made it less true.

That's even counting personal e-mails where are trying to plumb each other's souls. The kind of impersonal information posted here, even at its most revealing, is even less likely to lead a true knowledge of someone else.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
I would argue that you can get to know someone well enough through this medium to judge them on how they participate in this forum. Which really isn't different from most aspects of our lives.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
Having had relationships of all kinds with many people that started on the Internet first, I am firmly convinced that online interactions only count for online interactions, and that all bets are off until you have a relationship in person.

I am absolutely not saying that online interactions don't mean anything, but you don't really know each other until you get together and get along in person. Years of online to in-person interactions have only reinforced that, not made it less true.

That's even counting personal e-mails where are trying to plumb each other's souls. The kind of impersonal information posted here, even at its most revealing, is even less likely to lead a true knowledge of someone else.

---

quote:

---

I would like to hear your explanation for how such a thing is always intrusive.

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quote:

---

Scott doesn't think you can ever get to know someone through this medium. At least, not well enough to be allowed to judge them on anything.

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quote:

---

Having had relationships of all kinds with many people that started on the Internet first, I am firmly convinced that online interactions only count for online interactions, and that all bets are off until you have a relationship in person.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott R:

quote:

---

I would like to hear your explanation for how such a thing is always intrusive.

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:blink:

You want me to explain something I don't believe?

I'm a pretty amazing guy, but that's beyond my capacity.

---

quote:

---

quote:

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Scott doesn't think you can ever get to know someone through this medium. At least, not well enough to be allowed to judge them on anything.

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More or less. There's a bit more nuance to the idea than JT has implied.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I have no doubt that this has been your experience, but I think quidscribis, dkw, Bob_Scopatz and numerous others would disagree.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by MattP:

quote:

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Having had relationships of all kinds with many people that started on the Internet first, I am firmly convinced that online interactions only count for online interactions, and that all bets are off until you have a relationship in person.

---

My experience differs, though I might agree that this is the case for public fora in many cases. I have a number of friends which I talk to frequently in a private IRC-like environment (it's essentially a constant companion whenever I'm at the computer) and I feel I know those people very well. The couple times I've met them in person there have been no surprises and no new insights into their character. As far as I can tell, we really do know each other as well as we know anyone else online or off.

Perhaps it is different for you because, for whatever reason, you somehow filter your online interactions differently. That's not meant to be criticism, just a possible explanation for the difference between your experience and others'.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by katharina:
That's too bad, Orincoro. You had a chance to honor a polite request. That you refuse is revealing, as is the post that comes after.

How about you turn that penlight you are flailing about on yourself. What would you say about someone who refuses to cease committing, rude, intrusive, flawed acts on someone who asked them politely to stop? Any theories? What if that person the day before had needed to be chastised for swearing at the same person? Any speculation as to that person's true motives and character?

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quote:

---

Oh, and please don't critique my posting style. I already know I have all the charisma of a week-dead possum left out in the rain.

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Don't forget the smell!
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:

quote:

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Oh, and please don't critique my posting style. I already know I have all the charisma of a week-dead possum left out in the rain.

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Don't forget the smell!

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quote:

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Oh, and please don't critique my posting style. I already know I have all the charisma of a week-dead possum left out in the rain.

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quote:

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Don't forget the smell! [Taunt]

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott R:
And incidentally, Orincoro, didn't you recently get offended by Danlo for making observations on what he'd observed?

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quote:

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When I do though, I *really* do, I don't remember there being any positive interactions.

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Considering I didn't register your existence before the exchange yesterday where you called me an %$&*#@$, I'm not surprised.

I really am easy to get to know - talk about Doctor Who or say something nice about missionaries.

----
And "creeped out and angry" is a very good description of the appropriate response to a stranger performing pop psychology.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Something nice about missionaries: I don't know any.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Charming. I'm just shocked I haven't wanted to get to know you.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:
Something nice about missionaries: I don't know any.

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quote:

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Originally posted by katharina:
Charming. I'm just shocked I haven't wanted to get to know you.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lissande:

quote:

---

It's also common in Czenglish to substitute the usage of the word "after," or "in" for the usage of "before," when talking about lengths of time, such as "we will have lunch before 2 hours," or "you will get there before 30 minutes." I honestly think this has something to do with the reliability of the Czech transportation system, because SO many people take public transport, and need to arrive places on time, or "before" a certain length of time elapses. A trip can take 15 minutes or 25 minutes, but a person will tell you "before 25 minute," and this is telling you the upper limit.

---

The actual reason for this is that people are translating literally from Czech (thinking in Czech but using English words). The preposition "do" in time constructions as you described can mean before that time, by that time, until that time and a few others [edit: or within that time, as in your examples], and it is simply easy to mix up for those who don't speak English well. Creative reasoning you came up with though.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Pixiest:

Or am I jumping the gun?

---

You gays will never understand the subtleties of the angry heterosexual kiss-fight-dance. You just shouldn't try.


For more information on the art of the Kiss-fight-dance.
 

---

Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Orincoro: I'll admit I haven't see as much in the way of les/bi/gay oriented movies as I would like.. there simply aren't as many of them and they tend to be straight to video classics...

However the kiss-fight-dance, as you put it, seems to be missing as a trope. Which is fortunate because it's one I've always hated.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
I tend to agree.
 

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Posted by Week-Dead Possum (Member # 11917) on :
 
You all disgust me. Possum sex is the only way to go!


Dead Possums UNITE!


Playing Dead: It's Not Just a GAME Anymore!
 

---

Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
...

Steffie? Is that you?
 

---

Posted by Week-Dead Possum (Member # 11917) on :
 
Check your inbox, JOIN THE REVOLUTION!
 

---

Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
I think it is "Stiffie" being dead a week and all.
 

---

Posted by Week-Dead Possum (Member # 11917) on :
 
The Possum nation will not tolerate your insults to our sovereignty, WE ARE IN ASCENDANCY! Our time has come!
 

---

Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
While I can't stop you from speculating, the whole problem arose this time because I do not like, do not appreciate, and consider invasive and rude attempts by strangers on an internet forum to pop-analyze myself.

---

quote:

---

I think that when one is used to getting respect for what they have written when they are the expert and have been careful, it becomes natural to believe that what one writes is worthy of respect by default. I think that sometimes you are not careful when you write and you are not always the expert on the topics you talk about, but you still expect that same kind of treatment you get when you do and when you are.

The solution is to either be as careful with posts as with your professional activities, or else not to expect the same kind of reception to your posts as to your professional writing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon Boy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
While I can't stop you from speculating, the whole problem arose this time because I do not like, do not appreciate, and consider invasive and rude attempts by strangers on an internet forum to pop-analyze myself.

---

I ask this in all sincerity: then what was this post of yours to Rabbit on the first page?

quote:

---

I think that when one is used to getting respect for what they have written when they are the expert and have been careful, it becomes natural to believe that what one writes is worthy of respect by default. I think that sometimes you are not careful when you write and you are not always the expert on the topics you talk about, but you still expect that same kind of treatment you get when you do and when you are.

The solution is to either be as careful with posts as with your professional activities, or else not to expect the same kind of reception to your posts as to your professional writing.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PSI Teleport:
Darn you for linking to tvtropes.org, Orincoro. I had other things I was planning to do tonight. Daaaarn Yooooouuu!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pooka:
I think it's weird that I've mostly been away from hatrack for 6 months, but knew the opening post must be about kat. I think it was a bad thing for the Rabbit to have done.

I like the Rabbit and I like kat, and I also sometimes want to strangle either of them, and I have some indication they feel the same way about me, apart from the liking.

But if a contest is to be decided on this thread, Rabbit lost by starting it, in my just getting back to the fray opinion.

My main opinion for thinking this is how I would feel if someone with whom I had a long standing beef started a thread like this about me. Sort of the Categorical Imperative, though not precisely.

---

quote:

---

I'm sorry I gave in to the temptation to engage kat when she showed the poor judgement to post here despite our on going dispute.

---

See this sentence?
If you want to avoid confrontation, sentences like this one -- and particularly "apologies" like this one -- are how you don't do it.

Seriously, if you don't understand why this sentence is problematic, let me know. If you do, I think you might want to ponder -- at least for a little while -- your reasons for writing it.
 

---

Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
I wasn't apologizing to kat, I was apologizing to pooka and other members of the forum for my indecorous behavior.

And yes, I understand why this sentence is problematic, but at least its honest.

I have a pretty good idea why I wrote that sentence. I am sincerely sorry that my actions have contributed to the deterioration of this thread. It was not my intent to engage kat in this thread and I am ashamed of myself for doing it.

My point in posting that sentence was pretty straight forward. I am willing to take my share of the responsibility for the fight. I am not willing to say its all my fault.

I hope you can grasp that distinction.

[ January 15, 2009, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
 

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Posted by lobo (Member # 1761) on :
 
ever heard of the high road?
 

---

Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Yes, I think I just apologized for not taking it.
 

---

Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
You want Tom to grasp what?


 

---

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Rabbit,

Part of the truce is to avoid talking about me. That includes not making disparaging comments. Are you breaking the truce?
 

---

Posted by lobo (Member # 1761) on :
 
I think Tom's point is that in taking the high road, you decided to fling a bit of poo down. I certainly understand your not wanting to take blame for other's actions, but you don't need to continue to point out the fact that someone else is at fault too.

This, of course, coming from one who NEVER takes the high road and enjoys flinging the poo around...
 

---

Posted by lobo (Member # 1761) on :
 
Does this remind anyone else of angry high school cheerleaders? (More poo flinging)
 

---

Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
 

quote:

---

This, of course, coming from one who ... enjoys flinging the poo around...

---

quote:

---

I am willing to take my share of the responsibility for the fight. I am not willing to say its all my fault.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomDavidson:

quote:

---

I am willing to take my share of the responsibility for the fight. I am not willing to say its all my fault.

---

Another way to say this: "I posted this thread to work some things out for myself. I wasn't thinking at the time about how Kat might feel about what I had to say, or how I'd feel if she replied to my questions. In retrospect, I should have handled this differently."

---

quote:

---

By accusing her of "poor judgment" in responding, you're getting a final dig in without acknowledging that this thread invites her response.

---

quote:

---

Moreover, it's completely unnecessary; the quality of her judgment in no way impacts (much less ameliorates) the things you're trying to apologize for, so it doesn't do you any good to opine on it. Heck, following your mutual decision to avoid mentioning or replying to each other, it appears downright tacky.

---

Point taken.

Kat, I'm sorry that I broke the truce. It was thoughtless of me. I simply wasn't thinking about it when I responded to pooka. That was definitely poor judgement and thoughtless on my part.

[ January 15, 2009, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
 

---

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Thanks.
 

---

Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
I'm still interested in an answer to my question above.
 

---

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Tom Davidson answered it for you. To make it more clear, it is different when personal commentary is explicitly requested.
 

---

Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
 

 

---

Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Requesting feed back on my posting style is not the same as requesting an analysis of my personality and speculation about why I post the way I do.
 

---

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
As per our agreement, I will not respond.
 

---

Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
 

quote:

---

I can see how people could interpret it that way. You don't have to believe me when I say it wasn't my intent, but it wasn't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
As per our agreement, I will not respond.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jhai:

quote:

---

This, of course, coming from one who ... enjoys flinging the poo around...

---

Well, I think this proves beyond all doubt that lobo is really a bored chimpanzee at a zoo.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
As per our agreement, I will not respond.

---

So this isn't really a truce, more an exercise in passive aggressive posting?
 

---

Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
Tom Davidson answered it for you. To make it more clear, it is different when personal commentary is explicitly requested.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lobo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jhai:

quote:

---

This, of course, coming from one who ... enjoys flinging the poo around...

---

Well, I think this proves beyond all doubt that lobo is really a bored chimpanzee at a zoo.

---

I sometimes feels that way.

Give me a peanut...

---

Will some peanut butter suffice?
 

---

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
Wow, if we could actually come to a consensus here that psychoanalyzing people who haven't asked for it is rude, patronizing, and serves no good purpose, I think it could be a huge advance in the level of discourse here at hatrack.

I'd like to go on record as never inviting any psychoanalysis by anyone whatsoever toward me or mine. How delightful is the thought that that request could possibly be honored!
 

---

Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
I generally try not to post my psychoanalyzing, but I think it.

I think it hard.
 

---

Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
I think the problem is not that people don't agree that its rude but that when most people offer unsolicited psychoanalysis or advice, sling insults, call people names, condescend or engage in other obnoxious behavior they consider themselves and the situation exceptional.

I would be a much better person if I remembered that I am not exceptional.

Oh, and by the way, I recognize the inherent irony of this post. I think it's exceptional because it is a general comment on human nature and not directed at any individual except perhaps myself.
 

---

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
For the record, anyone who wants to can feel free to psychoanalyze me.
 

---

Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
I think Tom has an unhealthy attraction for his Mother and fantasizes about murdering his Mother's husband.


Or maybe I'm confusing him with Hamlet.

Maybe I'm confusing myself with Sigmund Freud. Its all so confusing.
 

---

Posted by Trent Destian (Member # 11653) on :
 
I figure it's probably cheaper to get your psychoanalyzing done here. A good psychiatrist is expensive, so why not welcome an incompetent for free? I volunteer my services to the Psych students at school all the time.

Then again I suppose you wouldn't want to apply that same logical to other professions. Say like an oral surgeon or a pita bread maker.
 

---

Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
I'd happily take free samples from an amateur pita bread maker, but you have a definite point about the oral surgeon.

The advantage of psychoanalysis of any kind, free, paid, solicited, unsolicited, is that you can always ignore it if you think its a heap of steaming excrement.

Its a bit more problematic to ignore bad surgery.
 

---

Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
I think Tom's unflappability is likely psychotic over compensation for the fact that he has a really hot wife and adorable children.


Edited to note: It is particularly unfortunate that this post is at the top of a page since it really isn't a stand alone sort of post,
 

---

Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
 

 

---

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Jon Boy, I am not interested in having this discussion with you. I tried to ignore it, and finally answered out of courtesy because you pressed. However, that's it.
 

---

Posted by Week-Dead Possum (Member # 11917) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rabbit:

Its a bit more problematic to ignore bad surgery.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomDavidson:
For the record, anyone who wants to can feel free to psychoanalyze me.

---

But where to start?!?
 

---

Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Aaacckkk! You should Put a warning on that link Possum, it's disturbing, it could scar sensitive people for life.


[ January 16, 2009, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
 

---

Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
Jon Boy, I am not interested in having this discussion with you. I tried to ignore it, and finally answered out of courtesy because you pressed. However, that's it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tatiana:

I'd like to go on record as never inviting any psychoanalysis by anyone whatsoever toward me or mine.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
? What's with the hostility?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
I don't get it, Noemon.

---

I looked it up. I've even read that book.

---

quote:

---

I'd like to go on record as never inviting any psychoanalysis by anyone whatsoever toward me or mine.

---

*scratches chin thoughtfully*
Interesting...
 

---

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
ROFL, Noemon, you've captured it exactly.
 

---

Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
? What's with the hostility?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tatiana:
ROFL, Noemon, you've captured it exactly.

---

 

---

Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
 

quote:

---

"Tell me, in single words, only the positive things that come to mind about...your mother"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
? What's with the hostility?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Samprimary:

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
? What's with the hostility?

---

Oh boy, you've got it bad, don't you.

---

Am I the only one who read that last line and started singing "Hot for Teacher?"

I even have the horrible dance number going in my head.
 

---

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Jon Boy, what would possibly possess you to imagine that would be you. You can go stand in the corner over there with S and O and we'll talk again when I decide it is worth it.
 

---

Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
I demand that you remove all references to me from your cerebral cortex, and continue to be oblivious to my corporeal existence in perpetuity throughout the universe.
 

---

Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
 
Shigosei, I love your post. That's exactly how I feel about it, too. Especially in a forum where so many people want to write.

As for this:

quote:

---

Suggesting certain arguments are the result of bigotry, irrational fear, or wishful thinking can be an effective tactic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
Jon Boy, what would possibly possess you to imagine that would be you. You can go stand in the corner over there with S and O and we'll talk again when I decide it is worth it.

---

Kat, I think you may have just proved Jon Boy's point.
 

---

Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomDavidson:
*wry laugh* God help me, Katie, that last post was something I'd expect from Orincoro doing a parody of you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
Well, sometimes words have two meanings.

---

I wonder what that means?
 

---

Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
And it's whispered that soon if we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason.
 

---

Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
Well, sometimes words have two meanings.

---

I regift my previous E-cookie to you. It may be stale, but gosh darnit, you earned it.
 

---

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Man, this is CT we're talking about. You bake her a new cookie.
 

---

Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
See if I do. I'LL BE DAMNED!
 

---

Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
I bet there are cookies in the corner, where all the cool kids are hanging out.

*goes to take a look*
 

---

Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
STAY AWAY FROM OUR CORNER!
 

---

Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
Let me play devil's advocate for a second. What if katharina actually IS so much more mature, wise, and patient than the rest of us, so from her perspective, we do deserve to be put in the corner and told to shut up and suck a duck. Maybe the rest of us just don't understand the deep thoughts and great deeds brewing in her extra-expansive cranium and dwelling deep in her old soul.


You know what though, by figuring this out, I think I've just moved up to her level. I'm in the big league now, Pleebs. Oh, I was right. You DO all look like ants from up here!
 

---

Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
We have cookies in the corner... you can come too.
 

---

Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
Cookies? *peeks*
 

---

Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Take those shades off! :whisper: You're embarrassing us!
 

---

Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
I think this thread has outlived its usefulness. I got some valuable feedback from a number of people whose opinions I respect and I appreciate your willingness to be frank with me.

But despite how its turned out, I never wanted this thread to be about kat. Its largely my fault that it took this turn and I regret it.

I'm not going to delete the thread because I think that's disrespectful to all the people who posted. I thought about asking Papa to lock the thread. But instead, I'm just goiing to ask people to let this the thread die.
 

---

Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
 
Well Rabbit, even tho you a foreigner, I still respect you.
 

---

Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orincoro:
STAY AWAY FROM OUR CORNER!

---