What are everyone's thoughts about tipping? I'm not necessarily looking for how much everyone tips, but why.
I'm a new server at the Olive Garden, and I've pretty much gone with the flow (I've worked at restaurants for 5 years) until now, because this restaurant has a constant peculiarity: unlimited refills on soup and salad, all the time. So hypothetically, someone could order unlimited soup and salad, which is around 7 bucks, and someone else could order a steak, which is around 20, and on average I will get tipped significantly more on the steak even though I could conceivably make 2x-5x more trips to the table delivering a stream of soup and salad.
Should we tip based on the amount of quality service? It seems to me that the value of service and how the value of product can't really be reconciled, and that a "tip ceiling" matters most.
Or should we tip at all? Should I be paid a higher rate by my employer to ensure consistent service, and to relieve any (possible) unfair pressure on the consumer?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I tip 15% on average service, average food, and an acceptable atmosphere.
I tip 20% or more if the service is excellent. I have been known to tip 30% or more if ALL are excellent, and it's a smaller place with lower prices. (Once I left a 50% tip.) At Olive Garden, a waiter coming back promptly multiple times to refill my soup and salad would definitely merit a higher tip, 25% plus on a low-priced order, if he was cheerful, pleasant, attentive yet unobtrusive, and generally on his game.
Sub-par service/experience earns a 10% or less tip from me. You have to be pretty awful to get less than 10% from me, but it has happened.
I also speak to the manager about both awful or excellent service/experiences. For instance, our last time at Outback I was happy with the staff, server, food, and general experience. We left a 22% tip and I spoke to the manager and complimented the waiter by name. The manager came up looking hassled and went away looking really happy. I hope she passed on the praise and if applicable put a note in his file or whatever.
I may not think tipping is the greatest system-- but it's the system we have. Regardless of hypotheticals servers need tips to survive. So I do tip-- but I want wait staff to know that, at least when I am around, there IS a bigger reward for better service. (As a bonus, places we go a lot they recognize us and are very happy to see us-- that is, if they've served us well in the past. )
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Well, in most parts of Europe, tipping is not customary. In England, France and Spain, locals do not tip- unless the service is excellent. The feeling is that a service job can be a profession, for which the person is compensated fairly by the employer. There are consequences to this attitude- some good, some bad.
In the Czech Republic and Slovakia, rounding up is customary in most pubs and cafes, but not always in restaurants. For instance, last night I was out at my local pub, an I had about 5 beers over the course of the evening at 35 Kc per beer (about 1.40 USD). With the last beer, I paid with a 50 Kc coin, and waved my hand at the server to indicate I was rounding up. Some servers will hand you the larger change first, and see if you wave off the smaller change- so for instance, if you pay 50 for a 35 Kc beer, they will hand you 10, and then they will hand you the 5, and you have the opportunity to wave off either the whole 15, or just the 5. A very rude server (or a server who works at a place where a lot of tourists eat) will first wave their hand to ask if you will round up, in which case you put out your hand to receive your change. It is not considered rude or callous to withhold a tip completely.
I'm more comfortable with a system like the one here, than what goes on in the states. I don't like the fact that servers are not fairly compensated for their work by their employers in some cases, and expect to be tipped by me in every case. Sometimes the services is not good enough to warrant a tip, and yet the inclination is to tip unless the service is particularly bad. In CZR, servers have the attitude that their job is to take your order and give you your food or drink. It is not to be your friend, or talk to you about anything- they leave you completely alone. They do not have the tip-driven compulsion to make you feel welcome. I think that is partly born of living in such an insular culture. Czech people will go to the same pub consistently, and the servers will recognize their regulars, and favor them over strangers- this is based on loyalty and not tipping. If you patronize your local pub consistently, and you behave yourself, they will treat you well. It is entirely against the Slavic character to be fake and patronizing with customers.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:At Olive Garden, a waiter coming back promptly multiple times to refill my soup and salad would definitely merit a higher tip...
And based on my experiences at Olive Garden, it would merit at least a few gasps of grateful astonishment.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:At Olive Garden, a waiter coming back promptly multiple times to refill my soup and salad would definitely merit a higher tip...
And based on my experiences at Olive Garden, it would merit at least a few gasps of grateful astonishment.
I thought that but didn't write it, because the last time we were at Olive Garden, we actually did have a prompt and attentive waiter. (He must have been new or something.)
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
quote:In CZR, servers have the attitude that their job is to take your order and give you your food or drink. It is not to be your friend, or talk to you about anything- they leave you completely alone. They do not have the tip-driven compulsion to make you feel welcome. I think that is partly born of living in such an insular culture.
I think that is pretty much the difference between America and Europe. Most Europeans just want to be left alone afer they've got their food.
Posted by Week-Dead Possum (Member # 11917) on :
There's something charming about that though, and it's easy to get used to. Perhaps it's that I've lived in some European countries and spent a lot of time here over the years, but I don't like being bothered in an American restaurant- here they will not even go so far as to bring you the check unless you tell them you're ready. You could sit an hour and no one would bother you.
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
The guy who waited on my parents and I at Cracker Barrel last week basically ignored us and even forgot to bring my mom a mug/cup for her hot tea. The little (the correct term escapes me) kettle thing was there, but no cup. It got to the point where we were joking about just pouring it into her mouth, kind of like Kamajii in Spirited Away. He did NOT get a good tip, but the lady waiting on us a few nights later did, because she was awesome.
quote:Originally posted by Week-Dead Possum: There's something charming about that though, and it's easy to get used to. Perhaps it's that I've lived in some European countries and spent a lot of time here over the years, but I don't like being bothered in an American restaurant- here they will not even go so far as to bring you the check unless you tell them you're ready. You could sit an hour and no one would bother you.
I always thought it cool that it's basically considered your table for the night, so long as you'd like it to be.
Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
My tipping is usually based on what is convenient with the change I get from the bill,
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
To be fair, if the restaurant is very busy and there are no more places left you will probably be asked if you want anything else or if they can bring the check (= please leave) if you're just sitting there for a long time after you've finished your meal. Not that I fault them. Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
That is often mentioned before the meal begins.
Servers bringing the check is something Europeans find very off-putting when they visit the States, because in most of Europe, the act of bringing the bill is a non-verbal "get out," unless the bill is brought immediately after the meal, in which case, they may just be busy- you don't have to pay until you leave. If a server brings the check here unasked for, they will indicate that they are bringing it because they are busy, or because they are taking a break, or whatever, and they will actually apologize for their intrusion. If they don't, they are asking you to please finish.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I would greatly, grealy prefer is waiters were paid like professionals and no tipping was expected.
Since it is expected here, I usually tip between 15% and 20%, a higher percentage if the food was cheap and usually a lower percentage if the food was expensive and the service was middling to bad.
The person I tip very well - usually about 25-30% - is my hairdresser. I go to a cheap place, but I found a wonderful, sweet, skilled good listener there. I give her the same tip I would give in a fancy salon, but since the service itself is so much cheaper, it's a better percentage. Color and cut still is usually under a hundred dollars, so I'm very pleased.
[ January 30, 2009, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
This could only happen if we stopped treating the service industry as if it is a place for only non professionals.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
When I waited tables I hated working for tips, and I've never been to a table service restaurant here (in the States) where it wasn't expected. It stinks that restaurants think they can get away with paying extremely low wages (I made $2.16 an hour) and that employees can make up the rest in tips and expect to live. This is especially true at restaurants like Cracker Barrel (where I worked) which has relatively low prices. At the time I worked there, the most expensive thing on the menu was $12 and some change. So if I had a four top and they all ordered that item it would be around $48 with a tip expectation of about $4. While I'm sure a lot of people here on hatrack are better tippers, I found in my time as a waitress that the average tip is still (at least at the time) around 10-15%.
That was assuming that people left tips. Here in the south, you are just as likely to be left a religious tract as your tip, and no money. I found that to be extremely offensive. Most people who give out those tracts only do it places where tips are expected (like restaurants) in my experience. This implies that because I work at a restaurant, I am not a Christian and need to be converted. I also used to hate being told what a shame it was that I had to work on Sundays. I never actually said this to a customer, but I always wanted to respond, "Well you're eating here." People who really think that its a shame someone has to work on Sundays shouldn't eat out on Sunday or go shopping or what have you. By doing so, they are contributing to the need for someone to be at work on Sunday. If no one went out to eat on Sunday the restaurants would not be open.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:People who really think that its a shame someone has to work on Sundays shouldn't eat out on Sunday or go shopping or what have you.
No kidding. I find it very strange to be eating out on Sunday and condemning the people who work there. I think that is more of a class thing than a religious thing, treating people like it is shameful that they don't have a job with bankers' hours.
Posted by katdog42 (Member # 4773) on :
quote:Originally posted by andi330: That was assuming that people left tips. Here in the south, you are just as likely to be left a religious tract as your tip, and no money.
I was wondering if anybody else was going to mention this. I worked as a southern waitress for a very short period of time, and received quite a few pamphlets in place of tips. Cute the first time, but when I realized it was a regular thing for some people, it got annoying.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
andi: I don't know when you were working, but the law requires the restaurant make up any wages needed to keep you at least at minimum wage if the tips aren't sufficient.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
There's at least one lengthy thread here from a few years back about tipping. That was a good one.
You might search for it -- I bet you'll find some good insights there.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
That never happened to me and I worked as a waitress in Georgia for years. I always got money with my tract. I also sometimes got auto supplies with the regular tip. I got tons of cause bracelets, which we all just put in a giant tub in the back.
I waited tables in NYC, where you just double the tax for the tip. Your tips are much more consistent, but you earn every penny by waiting on New Yorkers. It took me years to erase Andrew's NYC attitude toward waitstaff and I still hate eating out with his parents. I've told them over and over again, "Never be ugly to people who are alone with your food," but they still don't listen.
The best tippers, by far, are truck drivers. Of course, I am sure being a young woman who looks a certain way helps. However, no truck driver was ever less than gentlemanly with me and none of them ever left less than 25%. I'm sorry to say that the worst customers (which includes tipping and manners) were the Sunday after-church crowd. As soon as I got senior enough, I refused to take that shift.
Anyone else read Waiter Rant? The book was great, too. There's some cussing and adult situations, so please avoid if that offends you.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
For the restaurant paying out for less than minimum wage tips, averaged out, yeah. That might make more of a difference now that they've raised the minimum wage, but for the most part, whenever a server where I work has a really, really crappy day of tips, even a slightly above average day the following week averages out their weekly pay to minimum wage. I've seen servers in tears after working a 7 top (only 8 tops or higher get a grat) with a bill of more than $200 and they only got left a $10 tip.
Personally I think there should be a hybrid system. Pay servers more and make a standard tip in the 5-10% range. Because I do think that tipping is an impetus to many servers who otherwise might not to provide good service. I rarely ever tip much below 15%, only because I realize my tip is basically where they get all their money, and tipping them any less would be a dramatic pay cut, and they have bills to pay as well. But at the same time, truly horrible service in my mind tells me that they really don't care how much money they make, so I oblige them by not giving as much.
I have to think that restaurants would be opposed to paying servers more for a variety of reasons. Not just because the price of menu items would have to go up dramatically. But if you pay $20 for a meal and the service was horrible, you can't show your displeasure by giving the server less (in essence you pay for what you get, on the honor system), you have to complain to a manager, and what will the manager do? When the food is bad, they comp it off. When the service is bad, it's out of their hands, but I'd have to imagine that now they'd probably have to comp off food for bad service as well. So not only are they losing money on food sales, but they're paying employees more at the same time. One would imagine that'd lead to even higher turnover due to firings, or just extremely low wages for servers.
Servers where I work can easily walk at the end of the day, on a good day, with $150. A few years ago before the economy went down the crapper and there were fewer businesses around, they could easily make $300-$400 in a night, especially if they're hot and work in the bar. But a bad day now a days can see a server work a whole shift and leave with $10.
And as far as the Europe/America thing goes with people liking to be left alone, I guess I side with the Europeans. I want a friendly server, don't get me wrong, and good service, and to be checked on, but I don't want them standing around chatting with me while I'm trying to eat. I'd much rather them be nearby so I can flag them down if needed rather than constantly trying to chat it up.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
If it's lunchtime, I want someone to pay attention so I can get my check quickly so I can get back to work without being late.
If it is evening, I want someone to bring my food and then leave us alone, preferably for hours.
Clearly I need to lunch in the USA and eat dinner in Europe.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Something else people sometimes miss about sitting for hours in a restaurant, especially when its busy, is the concept of tipping for the time. If someone sits at a table for four hours and leaves 15%, they aren't just slightly undertipping, they're DRAMATICALLY undertipping. In those four hours, the server, who has a limited number of tables in a section, could have turned over that table several times and made several tips from it.
Servers are almost like sharecroppers in that sense. They have a defined plot of land, and it's up to them to make the most out of it that they can, with a healthy dose of luck and hoping that the host stand doesn't screw them over. But when one table decides to camp out for a few hours, they can just see the dollar signs evaporating before their eyes.
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M: That never happened to me and I worked as a waitress in Georgia for years. I always got money with my tract. I also sometimes got auto supplies with the regular tip. I got tons of cause bracelets, which we all just put in a giant tub in the back.
Yeah, I was thinking that if they really cared, they would try to make [insert name of religion] look good by leaving a really nice tip with the tract or pamphlet.
How random and yet cool about the auto supplies and bracelets! That's a new one to me!
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
When I was in early college I worked at a place that would be considered fast food, but at which servers brought food out to the customer, refilled drinks, bus tables, and whathaveyou. I did a little bit of everything there, including this halfway-waiting thing. Mostly we didn't get tips (and we were paid more than minimum wage; there was no expectation of tips) but occasionally someone would leave one, which was a nice surprise. Once I got a slip of paper that said "Don't eat yellow snow".
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
quote:Originally posted by katdog42:
quote:Originally posted by andi330: That was assuming that people left tips. Here in the south, you are just as likely to be left a religious tract as your tip, and no money.
I was wondering if anybody else was going to mention this. I worked as a southern waitress for a very short period of time, and received quite a few pamphlets in place of tips. Cute the first time, but when I realized it was a regular thing for some people, it got annoying.
QFT
I usually tipped an average amount out of habit by what my father told me before I was a server. My father's rule was 15% standard, but give more if you particularly liked the service.
Then I got a job as a server in a restaurant.
To sum up my story, 20-25% has become my standard because 1. I know that it's difficult to make the money depending on where you live. (Some regions tip better than others, and I lived in a fairly 'stingy' region.) 2. I absolutely hated working at the restaurant. Most of the time, the customers were fine. I'd serve them, and if they wished to do small talk or involve me that's all right. If they wanted to ignore me for the most part because it's their time, that's great as well. But what I hated was the disdain and antipathy I felt from some customers. Some (not a lot, but enough) would have a demeanor that felt so judgmental against me. As though I were a lesser class citizen because I worked as a server in a fairly low-class restaurant. I probably shouldn't have let it get to me, but I have been soured against working in a restaurant ever again. Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
You could eat both in Japan. A copy of what you ordered is left at the table, so at lunch you just walk up to pay right away after eating. At dinner, while the staff will check back occasionally, just take your time eating and deal with the check when you're done and have had a little time to digest.
Oh, and tipping is rude in Japan.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I tip pretty liberally. 20% is pretty much the floor, unless service is markedly bad. If I get something that's very inexpensive I don't bother calculating a percentage and just leave two or three dollars. I suppose that means I've occasionally tipped 100%, though it doesn't really count.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kama: I think that is pretty much the difference between America and Europe. Most Europeans just want to be left alone afer they've got their food. [/QB]
I suddenly became an europhile. Who knew?
The whole system of tipping pisses me off so much that I generally ask my wife to pay for the meal, passing the tipping decision to her.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I play it by ear, I dont go out of my way to tip, but if i have a looney or tooney as my change ill tip with that.
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
I just want to throw something else out there. If you or your children order a meal with pancakes and syrup. Please don't do the following.
Pour syrup on the table. (Bonus no-no in spilling sugar in that syrup.)
Leave cut up pieces of pancakes on the seat or ground in the carpet.
Ram crayons in your pancakes. While the crayons will, of course, be thrown away, it still just gave me a shiver down my spine each time I saw it. (Personal quirk.)
Pour syrup on the seats.
Drizzle the seats with various condiments like ketchup and mustard.
Break up the crackers from the cracker-basket all over the table.
But should you be unable to prevent these occurrences, then please, please never do the following.
Leave a skimpy tip, if any. (My worst experience was all of the above for a two dollar tip. On a seven top.)
We didn't have busers where I worked. I'd be the one to have to clean all of that, when I could be tending other tables. While I did play a balancing game by splitting my time cleaning and serving, it was very time consuming and until the job was done I obviously couldn't use that table. Plus it was a revolting sight for everyone else.
ETA: The tone I meant this post in wasn't reflected as well as I'd hoped after writing it. I meant this all with a smile, I'm not still bitter about it, after all it's been a long time since I was a server. This was just me trying to vent some of the steam I used to have while a server. Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I *hate* the American system of tipping. Why should I pay for service over and above the pre-agreed upon cost of a meal? If a person is doing their job adequately, they should be compensated by their employer. I should have nothing to do with this unless I feel that someone has gone out of their way (gone above and beyond the job agreed upon and compensated by the employer). Tipping 10% for sub-par service? No way.
I kind of like the Japanese tipping system -- I think it's changing a bit in touristy areas but traditionally a tip was the highest form of insult because it means, "Here, you're about to get fired so you'll need this to help feed your family."
Since I live in the United States and the culturally accepted norm is for me to pay for my own service, I do so, but I only leave 10% for just doing the job. I do not tip for sub-par service. I'll give 15% for a good job or if I've hassled the wait staff more than usual (for example, my kids leave a big mess or I order 10 refills of bread sticks). I've tipped 20% and more before for awesome service that really goes above and beyond.
I can't help but notice that average service in the US is terrible. I often wonder if this is because we tip 10% for mediocre service. The last time I went to Olive Garden (and I mean LAST in more than one sense of the word), they sat us down, ignored the fact that we brought a child with us (did not get him a menu, crayons, or high chair), and then did not even come to bring us water for 15 minutes.
The worst thing is that it's not just the service -- the FOOD quality at many restaurants is awful. They get frozen, pre-made meals and do not have a real chef on hand. It shows. That's why I usually frequent local places. Although I recently discovered the cafeteria inside Nordstrom's at our shopping mall -- don't know if they have them everywhere but wow! And the food isn't even more expensive than anyone else's. Plus, it's a cafeteria so no tipping.
Hmmmm....I could talk food forever. I probably ought to call that good.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I'm just repeating a lot of what was already posted, but I don't care. Here is my sunk cost:
I don't think the tipping system is any good at all.
1) It puts responsibility on the customer to judge job performance and reward accordingly. I don't want to do that when I'm out to eat. I just want to buy some food and eat it.
Restaurants have it too easy right now. The bad servers don't make as much money and they quit, right? Except we're all talking about how guilty it makes us feel not to tip because we know their wage is a pittance, so it's a flawed system at best.
It Would, of course, be more difficult for restaurants to actually train and manage their servers to ensure they're doing an acceptable job. I don't have much sympathy. It's hard for every other employer too.
I've heard that the size and chaotic activity of restaurants make supervision of the servers impractical. I don't really think that's true. One easy strategy is to have the manager tour the restaurant and ask the tables who are finishing up how things have been. Easy. If you have to hire an extra floor manager to squeeze this extra duty in, it's no different from a call center hiring a quality review specialist. (That's another situation where the majority of the work amounts to direct interaction with the customer and not every interaction can be supervised.) In both cases, you'll miss mistakes, but if mistakes are made consistently they'll become apparent after not very much time. Truly delinquent or offensive behavior generates complaints to the manager regardless.
Please don't make it my job to make sure your employees are doing a good job. There are entire service industries that operate without tipping, so you can do it too.
If we don't want to pay when we get bad service, we should hold the business responsible by talking to a manager. It's the business's responsibility to ensure we get good service. If things are bad enough to merit not paying the employee, the business needs to know.
2) It leaves the server open to getting screwed. Automatic gratuity for large groups is a rule I've seen in some restaurants, and that helps avoid the worst cases, but it's still not fair to work a table of 5 or 6 people for two hours and get $5 for your pain.
Again, the restaurants don't want to: they like the illusion of low prices by not including labor costs in the menu prices. (There's got to be some marginal benefit from this, like there is from pricing things at $x.99.) Oh well. I'm pretty sure we can handle finding out up front that our fettucine costs $15, not $12. Those of us who are both budget-constrained and fair-minded are already considering the cost of the gratuity up front. Those who don't include a few who go ahead and pay $12, which hurts the employee, and not the business: unfair.
I'm gonna wrap up my rant by pointing out that I don't really care if people want to keep some sort of tipping system to reward extra-good service, but ONLY if restaurants bake a fair wage into the cost of the product. They can absorb the minimal effort they'd have to put into discovering and firing bad performers.
p.s.
Vadon, if we wanted to follow those rules, we'd be having pancakes at home, instead of IHOP. True story.
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Vadon, if we wanted to follow those rules, we'd be having pancakes at home, instead of IHOP. True story.
Oh the only thing that really bothered me with those messes was the significant lack of a tip. I'm fine cleaning up after people, its what I knew came with the job. I just didn't like them to leave a pigsty without any measurable compensation for the extra time I'd have to extend to cleaning after the person's left.
Posted by natural_mystic (Member # 11760) on :
Studies have shown in the case of tipping taxi drivers that drivers of African descent are tipped significantly less. I seem to recall a similar phenomenon was also observed for restaurant waiters.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Ironic maybe, but, anecdotally, the stereotype where I work goes that black customers are the absolute worst tippers, and are also the most demanding and complain the most. Every race and age had a stereotype. Teens: bad tippers. Chaldeans: Demanding but good tippers. Blacks: bad tippers, demanding and are never, ever happy with what they get. Whites: Grab bag, depends on whether they're local or European and a lot of other variables. I rarely experience any of those stereotypes personally since I work in the kitchen, but after five years of hearing the same complaints from literally hundreds of different servers, a picture gets stuck in your head.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
I have been told people with my demographics tip less (young couple with baby). And strangely, since we have had the baby, I have felt like waiters treat us worse. Which makes me wonder if that is because of the stereotype of young families as bad tippers. Of course, when I get bad service, I tip less, which reinforces the bad tipper image in their mind. However, when service is good with a kid, I am much more appreciative then when I was single and got good service. And I try to tip extra. Today, I had so so service, but the waitress brought out free crackers for the monster while waiting, brought more when monster threw them all on the floor and then cleaned up on the floor. She ignored our empty drinks and it took us a very long time to find her to ask for the check. So, if it hadn't been for baby stuff, she would have gotten 15%, rounded down. But since she went out of way on taking care of monster, she got 20%, round up- so like 22% probably.
With tipping being part of the wage, one problem I had was when a large party came in. Our waitress completely abandoned us to deal with the large group. We ended up complaining to the manager, who gave us a significant discount on the meal and ended up waiting on us himself. When we had the tip, we would have been fine tipping the manager, but we were not going to tip that waitress. The waitress, though, got more then enough from the large party to make up from it. And since the next time we came in, she was still working the good shift with the same section, it seems like she has no reason to change.
Posted by natural_mystic (Member # 11760) on :
In the taxi example, I think they found that statistically the very worst tippers were African Americans tipping African American drivers.
Let's assume the truth of the study i referred to. If, all things being equal, the pay of an African American taxi driver is less than that of his white counterpart, and this difference is accounted for by differences in amount of tips received, is tipping inherently discriminatory?
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Ironic maybe, but, anecdotally, the stereotype where I work goes that black customers are the absolute worst tippers, and are also the most demanding and complain the most. Every race and age had a stereotype. Teens: bad tippers. Chaldeans: Demanding but good tippers. Blacks: bad tippers, demanding and are never, ever happy with what they get. Whites: Grab bag, depends on whether they're local or European and a lot of other variables. I rarely experience any of those stereotypes personally since I work in the kitchen, but after five years of hearing the same complaints from literally hundreds of different servers, a picture gets stuck in your head.
It's more of a cultural thing. I wouldn't say race or age comes with a built-in tip-o-meter. And it's an exaggeration. I'm just as likely to get tipped badly by someone my co-worker could telegraph as a good tipper, and vice versa.
I'm in the camp of being paid a higher rate. It would make my paychecks a constant, so a few "bad shifts" couldn't make me or break me. Not that I'm a bad server by any means, but it would make me a much more composed and stable one if I wasn't just a tiny bit insane all the time.
The only really negative things I've heard in the thread so far are:
quote:My tipping is usually based on what is convenient with the change I get from the bill,
because I think that doing it thoughtlessly is the worst, no matter how much you tip. You've probably caused a fair amount of frustration where you've eaten, and I hope you're not a regular anywhere.
quote:I play it by ear, I dont go out of my way to tip, but if i have a looney or tooney as my change ill tip with that.
For basically the same reasons.
quote:I suddenly became an europhile. Who knew?
The whole system of tipping pisses me off so much that I generally ask my wife to pay for the meal, passing the tipping decision to her.
Why, mph? I'm assuming for some combination of reasons listed by others.
I really do wish we were compensated just by our company, but I also wonder if the same number of people would come to eat if an extra couple of dollars was tacked on to every item on the menu, even if people were aware they didn't have to tip. If I were an executive I'd probably think we would lose a significant base of customers who don't tip deliberately, and are now being forced to.
Also, if we get paid a higher rate, we'd have more stringent hiring practices, and as I'm a trainer, it'd be much easier to train people exhibiting a modicum of enthusiasm. Not that everyone doesn't come with that, but Olive Garden actually hires people with no serving experience, which could explain this:
quote:And based on my experiences at Olive Garden, it would merit at least a few gasps of grateful astonishment.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
They hire people with no serving experience where I work too. Training is pretty extensive. I didn't realize servers had to actually go through a training course before they could serve, but they do.
But generally the bad servers get weeded out pretty fast. The ones who can't handle the fast pace, the ones who are rude or just plain bad, and the ones who clearly don't know what they are doing don't last very long at all.
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: They hire people with no serving experience where I work too. Training is pretty extensive. I didn't realize servers had to actually go through a training course before they could serve, but they do.
But generally the bad servers get weeded out pretty fast. The ones who can't handle the fast pace, the ones who are rude or just plain bad, and the ones who clearly don't know what they are doing don't last very long at all.
Yeah, but they last long enough to damage the reputation. The turnover rate is so huge that we trade out a lot of bad for bad.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
I feel about tipping the same way I feel about war: I absolutely hate the system, but I "support the troops". In other words, I complain about having to tip and wish the cost of the meal was the cost of the meal, but I still tip because I know the waiters don't get paid enough.
I tip 15% for ordinary service; I only tip less if the service is really lacking, and I'll tip more if the service is fantastic or if we bring our kids. (We became better tippers when we had kids because we felt bad about the mess! We also pick up whatever we can from the floor.)
But really, I like what scifibum said about how it shouldn't be my job to decide what the server should be paid, or to give them incentive to do a good job; it should be the business of the restaurant. Incidentally, the grocery store I shop at has the best service and employees' attitudes of anywhere I've ever been, combined with a strict "no tipping" policy. They don't get paid extra if they smile at me or give my kid a balloon or help me put my groceries onto the conveyor belt or take my groceries out to the parking lot for me. But they do all those things because they were trained really well. It can be done!
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I tip at restaurants, averaging between 15-20%. I don't tip too many other service providers. Perhaps if I stayed in more hotels in NYC I would. Honestly, I never know when I'm expected to tip. And I rarely carry cash, because I can't track my spending with cash. I suppose if they all carried swipers for my debit card?
Here's a question: Is there any difference between leaving a tip on the receipt rather than leaving cash on the table?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
On the card it is definitely being reported to the IRS as income. On the table, maybe, maybe not.
Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
I don't really like tipping (I tip, and tip well), because I'd rather the cost on the menu be the real cost.
What I absolutely HATE though is the idea of forced tipping, like putting a 20% "service charge" on the bill. If it's always 20%, then just update the menu prices. Do you take your car to the car wash advertised for $2 and then then get a $1.50 "water fee"? Why don't they put a "utility charge" for all the power used to cook the food and the light used to illuminate the restaurant? Why single out service to surcharge?
The tipping system sorta has a good point about being able to punish/reward service without having to ask to see the manager and get all confrontational.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I don't like forced tipping on large parties although I understand the rationale, since I did work in a restaurant for a while. Here's something I discovered a few years, back, though: If the service is bad enough, you can have the manager remove that gratuity. I did just that one time when I was part of a party of 8 at a local restaurant. The place wasn't even that busy, everything took forever...I'd say our food didn't come out until about an hour after we sat down...and mine wasn't with it! He'd forgotten to put in my order so I was sitting there watching everyone else eat for 20 minutes, then they sat and watched me eat. He then offered a free dessert to make up for it and the dessert took 45 minutes to arrive! When the bill game with 18% tacked on I went up to the manager and told him to take it right back off.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Teens: bad tippers.
Teens: Poor.
quote: Chaldeans: Demanding but good tippers.
Wait... Chaldeans? Where do you find Chaldeans?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Detroit, right? That's where I found Chaldeans.
Posted by Achilles (Member # 7741) on :
I haven't tipped in years; since I was a kid, really.
It's dangerous to the cows, you see.
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: On the card it is definitely being reported to the IRS as income. On the table, maybe, maybe not.
Yeah, it depends on the restaurant for cash. Most restaurants have a system for recording your cash tips because an IRS audit is something that nobody wants to deal with.
quote: I don't like forced tipping on large parties although I understand the rationale, since I did work in a restaurant for a while. Here's something I discovered a few years, back, though: If the service is bad enough, you can have the manager remove that gratuity. I did just that one time when I was part of a party of 8 at a local restaurant. The place wasn't even that busy, everything took forever...I'd say our food didn't come out until about an hour after we sat down...and mine wasn't with it! He'd forgotten to put in my order so I was sitting there watching everyone else eat for 20 minutes, then they sat and watched me eat. He then offered a free dessert to make up for it and the dessert took 45 minutes to arrive! When the bill game with 18% tacked on I went up to the manager and told him to take it right back off.
Usually if a big party gets that kind of service gratuity isn't added on to the bill. Gratuity needs manager or trainer approval (by way of computer clearance, essentially) where I work. However, if a large party gets perfect service and the tip is abysmal, I would say the gratuity system works fine. It's really only one degree from making your menu items more expensive and paying the server more, so if we can agree that excellent service can be assigned value that requires compensation beyond minimum wage, it makes sense. The only dissent I can think of is just how much that gratuity should be.
quote:Teens: Poor.
Sure, that's an explanation, but is it an excuse?
Posted by Godric 2.0 (Member # 11443) on :
quote:Originally posted by advice for robots: I tip at restaurants, averaging between 15-20%. I don't tip too many other service providers. Perhaps if I stayed in more hotels in NYC I would. Honestly, I never know when I'm expected to tip. And I rarely carry cash, because I can't track my spending with cash. I suppose if they all carried swipers for my debit card?
Here's a question: Is there any difference between leaving a tip on the receipt rather than leaving cash on the table?
I too rarely carry cash, so when my wife and I eat out I usually put the tip on the receipt. Recently however, I've noticed that often the tip is not charged (I never took notice if this had been the case before - I've only begun tracking my money with a fine tooth comb in the year since we had our daughter). This has bothered me. Are those waiters being stiffed the tip I tried to leave?
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
My mother worked as a waitress from before I was born until well after I left home. She was a single mother, and I was literally raised on tips. Her paycheck every week was in the neighborhood of $60-$100, but she brought in $40-$50 every shift, usually in change. She would come home and dump out her apron pockets and my brother and I would stack up and roll them for her. She didn't have a bank account, so we would use the rolled coins to pay bills (we could pay our utility and phone bills at the hardware store near our home) and to buy groceries or eat at McDonalds or Taco Bell. I found it very humiliating at the time, but have fond-ish memories of it now.
I tip pretty generously at restaurants, but even more so for personal services such as haircuts and pedicures. I'm not sure why that is? Perhaps because I would (and do) willingly prepare and serve food for others, but wouldn't be as likely to rub and pamper someone's feet? It's been a few years since I had a professional pedicure, mostly for financial reasons, so it hasn't been an issue, but I just had my hair cut last night and I tipped the stylist >20%.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Recently however, I've noticed that often the tip is not charged (I never took notice if this had been the case before - I've only begun tracking my money with a fine tooth comb in the year since we had our daughter). This has bothered me. Are those waiters being stiffed the tip I tried to leave?
Are you sure it isn't charged? I've noticed that the "pending" charge is sans tip, but when it finally goes through, it includes the tip.
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
quote:Originally posted by Seatarsprayan: The tipping system sorta has a good point about being able to punish/reward service without having to ask to see the manager and get all confrontational.
Actually, if you got such poor service, getting a manager is a good thing. It can correct whatever was being done wrong, either through the faulty person being fired, or the person becoming a better server by way of discipline. Now, there are some points of bad service that don't require asking for a manager, and there are instances where the customer might have unreasonably high standards, but if it takes half an hour for you to get your drinks, that's a bad server.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I hope not. I'd feel bad. I tend to be more generous with my tip when I leave it on the card. I hope they're getting it. I realize that cash is easier to slip below the tax radar. I'm not trying to enforce honesty--merely taking advantage of a convenience.
Edit: Oh yes, I forgot my haircutter. I tip her.
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
Godric--
Kat's right. The meal is charged right before you leave, and that's an instant charge, but a server has to add in the tip separately, and the tip only goes through the system once the server is cleared out of the system for the day. The server also has to hand in the slip with your signature on it before you're ever charged for it, so if your tip has never shown up, the server lost your slip.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I have a hard time thinking it isn't going through - I would think a system where no one got tip when customer pays with a credit card could not possibly be sustainable.
Any servers want to shed some light? ETA: Thanks, Emp. I think we were writing at the same time.
Posted by Godric 2.0 (Member # 11443) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Are you sure it isn't charged? I've noticed that the "pending" charge is sans tip, but when it finally goes through, it includes the tip.
I'm sure. Twice in the last three times we've eaten out the tip was never charged. I'd have to go back through my statements, but I'm fairly sure it's happened before that as well.
Posted by Godric 2.0 (Member # 11443) on :
quote:Originally posted by EmpSquared: The server also has to hand in the slip with your signature on it before you're ever charged for it, so if your tip has never shown up, the server lost your slip.
I suppose this could be possible. We live in Vegas where many of the restaurants can get extremely busy... I guess the slips could have been lost.
Maybe I should carry cash for tips if I know we'll be eating out, because while I've never worked in a restaurant, I have a few friends who have and I've heard my share of lousy/no tip stories.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: When I was in early college I worked at a place that would be considered fast food, but at which servers brought food out to the customer, refilled drinks, bus tables, and whathaveyou. I did a little bit of everything there, including this halfway-waiting thing. Mostly we didn't get tips (and we were paid more than minimum wage; there was no expectation of tips) but occasionally someone would leave one, which was a nice surprise. Once I got a slip of paper that said "Don't eat yellow snow".
I didn't usually leave tips at those kinds of places when I was single/newly married. But now that I have kids, I do, because the table we sat at is usually out of commission for 5-10 minutes while they clean up the spots where my kids ate...
Also, from what I understand, here restaurants are required to pay at least minimum wage, before tips. Now, minimum wage is still not a living wage, but at least they're not expecting people to only get to minimum WITH tips.
And I was poor as a teen but I still tipped at least 15%. I was always taught "If you can't afford the bill plus the tip, you can't afford the meal."
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
We usually tip 20% if the service is decent. Since we're usually eating with a child (although she's usually well behaved at restaurants), and children often need special considerations and possibly some extra clean-up, we figure it's only fair.
I also tend to tip 20% when I'm eating alone if the service is competent (checks to see if I need something a few times, refills my drink, brings the bill in a timely but not pushy manner, etc.) I figure servers recognize that a person eating alone isn't going to be as profitable as a larger table, so I appreciate them treating me well as a courtesy and seek to reward it.
The staff at a local breakfast place actually helped free my car when I got stuck in the snow near their restaurant... I think I tipped the entire cost of the meal.
Service has to be pretty atrocious and/or rude for us to tip less than 15%.
I try to leave tip in cash when it's feasible. It's my understanding that in many places restaurant servers are taxed with the expectation of 15% tipping, which doesn't necessarily actually happen... So I leave my 20% in cash and just write "cash" on the credit card receipt in the tip line. Let the bean-counters guess.
Generally, my sentiment is- yes, it would be better for everyone if all restaurant workers were paid a living wage so we could develop a professional class and standard of servers and allow their employers, not their customers, to be the judge of the quality of their work. But if tipping really offends you, stay home and cook. And invite your friends who want to eat out over.
In New Zealand, servers don't expect tips, and if there is a tip, it's usually just rounding off the bill. I got to the point of reminding my wife to take about a third off of restaurant bills to recognize their real cost in American dollars between the conversion rate and the lack of tipping. There was an article I read while I was in NZ that was concerned that NZ wasn't really developing long-term waitstaff, however; their opinion was that most places paid decently, but not the kind of wages someone hopes to be making their entire life.
Conversely, we just came back from Puerto Vallarta, Mexico. One of our less pleasant experiences was a bus tour that dropped us off at a restaurant for two hours. The food was decent, when it finally came, but very simple (it shouldn't have taken nearly as long as it did)- it became increasingly clear to us that the expectation was that all the stupid tourists would bolster their profit margins by drinking away the excessive wait time. And then the waiter, who we had barely seen, pressed for a tip. For making a family with a small child sit around for two hours. My Spanish isn't good enough to express my ire.
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
My worst experience at a restaurant and the only time I really didn't want to tip, one of my friends asked for water when we sat down, and didn't receive it until after the food, which took more than an hour to arrive, despite his asking again when my sister and I received our Cokes, which were tiny and never refilled. Someone else delivered the food, and I didn't see the waitperson again until she brought the check. When I gave her my card to pay, she returned it to another table. I had heard good things about that restaurant, but overall, all the employees were rather rude. I imagine that if they didn't have terrific food, no one would ever eat there, but I certainly will not go back.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
I worked as a waitress for many years and may have to go back to it again soon at this rate. When I was waiting tables, we made $3.85 plus tips and minimum wage was about $5.50. I certainly made enough in tips to more than make up the difference, and I never felt shortchanged in my tips.
However, because I know what it's like to work tables, I make a point of tipping based on service. My worst tip was about 5% because the server was absolutely atrocious. And yes, I absolutely pulled a manager and complained about her failings. Most of my tips are around 18-20%, for average service I usually double the tax and round up so my total charge is an even dollar amount, it makes balancing the checkbook later much easier.
The highest tip I gave was roughly 30%. We were in a restaurant known for its lively decor and wacky staff. He noticed that my preteen was having problems with the volume of the music on the PA system and immediately got it turned down for us. He very clearly adjusted his shtick to compensate for her anxiety, and by the end of the meal she had completely come back out of her cocoon and was playing back with him. I sent a letter of commendation to management, and I received a reply indicating that the server was named Employee of the Month based on my letter and that the letter was in his permanent file. Months later he still remembers us when we come in.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
The only time I've never left a tip was when it took us over thirty minutes to get the bill, despite asking the waitstaff about seven times. I figured the amount they were going to get tipped was about equal to what I get paid during the time they wasted.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Teens: bad tippers.
Teens: Poor.
quote: Chaldeans: Demanding but good tippers.
Wait... Chaldeans? Where do you find Chaldeans?
Like EmpSquared said, that's a reason, but a poor excuse. If some teens go to a store and steal a TV but leave 80% of what it cost on the table before they leave, can they just say "oh no it's okay, we're poor" and have that be an excuse? If they can't afford to go out and pay for the WHOLE meal, including the tip, which is part of the visit to the restaurant, then they shouldn't go out at all.
And katharina nailed it: Detroit. Lots of big groups of Chaldeans, and I work with a half dozen or so Chaldeans too.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I have a hard time thinking it isn't going through - I would think a system where no one got tip when customer pays with a credit card could not possibly be sustainable.
Any servers want to shed some light? ETA: Thanks, Emp. I think we were writing at the same time.
They do get the tips, which are added on later. However, I have had a very high end place hold charge tips for a week or longer. They only paid them out once a week, and if you couldn't make it there (for the 2 hours you could pick them up) you were out of luck.....you had to wait ANOTHER week.
I am pretty sure that was illegal though. He only got away with it because it was a high-end place so the tips were really good most of the time.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by andi330: When I waited tables I hated working for tips, and I've never been to a table service restaurant here (in the States) where it wasn't expected. It stinks that restaurants think they can get away with paying extremely low wages (I made $2.16 an hour) and that employees can make up the rest in tips and expect to live. This is especially true at restaurants like Cracker Barrel (where I worked) which has relatively low prices. At the time I worked there, the most expensive thing on the menu was $12 and some change. So if I had a four top and they all ordered that item it would be around $48 with a tip expectation of about $4. While I'm sure a lot of people here on hatrack are better tippers, I found in my time as a waitress that the average tip is still (at least at the time) around 10-15%.
That was assuming that people left tips. Here in the south, you are just as likely to be left a religious tract as your tip, and no money. I found that to be extremely offensive. Most people who give out those tracts only do it places where tips are expected (like restaurants) in my experience. This implies that because I work at a restaurant, I am not a Christian and need to be converted. I also used to hate being told what a shame it was that I had to work on Sundays. I never actually said this to a customer, but I always wanted to respond, "Well you're eating here." People who really think that its a shame someone has to work on Sundays shouldn't eat out on Sunday or go shopping or what have you. By doing so, they are contributing to the need for someone to be at work on Sunday. If no one went out to eat on Sunday the restaurants would not be open.
andi, I worked at a CB for 5 years, and I averaged FAR more than 10%. On average it was 15% - 18%, and quite often I was over 20% for teh day.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:If they can't afford to go out and pay for the WHOLE meal, including the tip, which is part of the visit to the restaurant, then they shouldn't go out at all.
If that's how much they're required to pay to eat that meal, that's how much they should be charged for the meal.
Hidden or implied charges are obnoxious and rude.
Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jhai: The only time I've never left a tip was when it took us over thirty minutes to get the bill, despite asking the waitstaff about seven times. I figured the amount they were going to get tipped was about equal to what I get paid during the time they wasted.
For me the only time I didn't leave a tip was when the waitress chased after my party to tell us that we didn't leave enough tip. She'd been a pretty terrible waitress already, but chasing after us to complain outraged us enough that we all went back to the table and took the cash back.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
Kwea, I'm sure part of that depends on where you're located. We were off of a business loop, not the major highway, so we didn't see a lot of the travelling traffic that other CBs see, and I don't know where you lived at the time, but where I worked in Spartanburg, SC isn't an area that is rolling in cash. Until I got a second job and started working days, I considered it a good night if I worked from 4-8 and went home with $20 in my pocket. Some nights I only got one table before being cut from the floor due to a lack of traffic. We also had a manager that was stealing tips from the servers by refusing to let them cash out their register tips on days when we were busy (like weekends), telling them that they would be in the safe the next day and then pocketing the money. He finally got fired, but only after he refused to open the restaurant on time one day when the cook called in sick for his shift and he didn't feel like running the grill until the 8 a.m. cook was due in.
And yes, to whomever pointed out that restaurants have to make up the difference if you don't earn minimum wage with your tips, you are correct. However, you can't really live on minimum wage. Not and have money to do anything except pay bills, and sometimes not even pay all the bills. Not to mention the fact that this is based on the pay period earnings, and not the daily wage. So I could work a shift and get only one or two tables in four hours and leave with $5 in my pocket, but because I made $120 or so on Saturdays and Sundays they didn't have to pay me the difference for my Tuesday night with no customers.
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:If they can't afford to go out and pay for the WHOLE meal, including the tip, which is part of the visit to the restaurant, then they shouldn't go out at all.
If that's how much they're required to pay to eat that meal, that's how much they should be charged for the meal.
Hidden or implied charges are obnoxious and rude.
In American dollars, how much do you think a server for a casual dining restaurant should make?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:If they can't afford to go out and pay for the WHOLE meal, including the tip, which is part of the visit to the restaurant, then they shouldn't go out at all.
If that's how much they're required to pay to eat that meal, that's how much they should be charged for the meal.
Hidden or implied charges are obnoxious and rude.
Maybe, but that isn't the server's fault. You know when you go out that you have to tip your server, so not doing it and thinking you're sticking it to the restaurant isn't right, you're just screwing over some innocent person who just made less than minimum wage to wait on you. In fact, when you include their tip out to the bar and the busboys, they actually PAID OUT OF THEIR OWN POCKET to wait on you.
That's even more obnoxious and rude.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I have a superstition that if I'm always a good tipper, I won't ever have to work as a waiter, which seems like a really demanding tough job that doesn't pay a whole lot.
Seriously, I tip well because I consider it a great privilege to be served or waited upon by another human being, and I think that service deserves appreciation in the form that's most useful to the server. I do the same for hotel housekeeping, as I think they're even more under-appreciated.
My mom grew up in a culture where there were servants to do most everything hard or unpleasant. She taught me to appreciate it any time someone else serves me, to realize what hard work it is and be grateful. She said that your peers and your bosses never know what sort of person you truly are, but your servants are the ones who know your real character. I guess that stuck with me.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
(Former accountant.)
At a couple of places, it was set up so that credit card tips were added to the paychecks (either biweekly or semi-monthly).
Another place had the servers take the credit card tips out of their cash so their total cash and credit cards submitted equalled the total restaurant bills.
The idea of paying out credit card tips in cash once a week with a two hour window sounds just appalling to me, both from the inconvenience point of view as well as from the cash balancing/security/cash float point of view.
Tipping in Sri Lanka depends on the kind of restaurant. Upper class restaurants, it's more common, but tips are low and not necessarily expected. Think perhaps up to 5%. One restaurant we ate at recently had a mandatory service charge of 10% added - this is entirely new here and we're not impressed.
It's also now the done thing to tip the grocery boy who wheels the cart out to your car or trishaw (Rs.10 or 20), but also not expected and most people don't.
Tipping the postal guy and garbage men is mandatory (around New Years and a few other holidays) if you want decent service the next year. If you don't tip, don't expect to receive mail or get your garbage picked up/have some of it land in front of your gate.
For the record, I think the US system of relying on tips for a living wage is stupid. Pay the servers a living wage, increase the bill accordingly, and let people tip only if/when they feel like it/the service is that stellar.
In Canada, there's one minimum wage only (for each province), not one for everyone and another for waiters/waitresses. And tipping percentages are not as high - 10% for decent service, 15% or higher for stellar when I was last there.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
I think servers should be paid a living wage as well and tipping no longer the expected thing. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the system is going to change any time soon. That's why I agree with an earlier statement. Currently, in the United States, tipping is expected at sit down restaurants. If you cannot afford to pay the restaurant tab and add on a tip, you should not eat at that restaurant. By doing so, you are making a conscious decision to deprive the server of part of their pay, which is unfair, since the expectations are known before you ever set foot in the restaurant. (I am however, not opposed to not tipping if service is bad, although since my time as a server, you have to be really awful not to get anything from me.) Especially if you choose to be a regular at a restaurant where you don't tip ever, expect your service to be poor from any server in the place, because everyone there knows you don't tip. If I know you're not going to leave me anything no matter how hard I work for you, why should I care?
We had one family that ate at the restaurant several times a week. They likely didn't have much money, because they never ordered anything too expensive. If the husband was there, you weren't getting a tip period, unless wife could manage to pretend she was going to the bathroom and slip you a dollar while she was up from the table. Other times the tip was only a dollar. I knew that the wife was at least trying to make sure you got something, but the table was always horribly messy after they left, so the dollar didn't seem to make up for the extra work they caused.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:In American dollars, how much do you think a server for a casual dining restaurant should make?
That negotiation should be between them and their employers. I don't want any part of that decision.
quote:You know when you go out that you have to tip your server...
No, I go in knowing that I don't have to tip the server, but that in some situations, which I can neither understand nor keep straight, I'm expected to.
quote:Seriously, I tip well because I consider it a great privilege to be served or waited upon by another human being, and I think that service deserves appreciation in the form that's most useful to the server.
I, on the other hand, do not appreciate being served or waited upon. I actually dislike it, and generally prefer situations where it doesn't happen. I'd rather get up and re-fill my own drink than wait for a server to notice and do it themselves.
edit: fix quote blocks
[ January 31, 2009, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Then you should patronize those types of eateries, because a 15% tip IS expected, and usually warranted, and by not tipping you are probably expressing things you don't intend.
Andi...I was up north, but that doesn't always equal good tips. It was in Western Mass in an old paper plant city that was one of the lowest income cities in the county.
But it was just off a major highway, and it was the only CB in miles, and one of 4 in New England at the time. I usually made between $120 and $200 on Sat. and Sun. but I had to work about 13-14 hours to make that too.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Then you should patronize those types of eateries...
I try to.
quote:...because a 15% tip IS expected, and usually warranted, and by not tipping you are probably expressing things you don't intend.
You are mistaken in your assumption that I don't tip.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
I was raised by a cafe-marm on the gracious tips of others. From my experiences, I've devised a set of rules.
Tipping Rule #1: The server at the nice steakhouse shall receive no higher tip than the server at the schlocky cafe.
Tipping a percentage is idiotic. Why, by divine providence of working at a "nicer" restaurant, should the "beautiful people" be paid more? Tips shouldn't be a percentage based on the bill, they should be based on overall service.
Rule #2: Tipping is NOT a right.
Terrible service shouldn't be rewarded. Period. Otherwise it would be a mandatory gratuity.
Rule #3: Tip based on time serviced.
The more work you are (refills, mess, etc), the bigger your tip should be.
Results: I have a family of four with two small children who don't make a terribly large mess. Regardless of meal cost, I start with a standard $5 tip. Depending on the mess we make, the amount of time we take ordering, number of refills, and the overall timeliness and friendliness of the service; I may tip from $0 to $15.
Again, why should a server at a nicer restaurant make more than one at a cafe. The cafe server generally works harder and the nice restaurant generally hires more attractive people. The cafe server doesn't generally have better options.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Herblay,
If you're talking about the difference between ordering the T-bone and the grilled cheese sandwich where things like staff/patron ratio and length of dinner stay are otherwise comparable, you're right. No reason the same amount of work over the same amount of time should merit a higher tip just because of the cost of the food on the plate.
However, workers at some more expensive restaurants might actually merit higher tips. Not for being more attractive.
Mainly, some restaurants tend to cater to more leisurely diners who will be taking up a table for two or three hours. Some of these restaurants also maintain a higher staff/patron ratio to ensure a high level of service. Between the two factors the person might get a lot fewer tips, so it makes sense for the tips to be bigger.
There are also some skills that might factor in, such as such as knowledge of wine, and the arcane art of being at hand whenever needed without being obtrusive. You tend to find these at nicer places more than at cheap cafes.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Herblay: Again, why should a server at a nicer restaurant make more than one at a cafe. The cafe server generally works harder and the nice restaurant generally hires more attractive people. The cafe server doesn't generally have better options.
Because the waiters at the nicer restaurants are theoretically supposed to be doing a superior job and providing superior service. I have never heard the idea that they are prettier people, although they usually wear nicer uniforms and so may just clean up better. At the nicest restaurant, a server or team of servers should anticipate your wishes before you even know about them. They should be able to do this without hovering. Your drink should be kept full but with minimal intrusion. There are places that pride themselves on service and when they do, you know it.
And it's not just the service. The experience of the nicer restaurants is supposed to be superior. The food, the menu, the atmosphere. They will have fewer tables and spend much more time with each customer. They know the menu, the chef, and might even make recommendations that are not on the menu.
When I walk into a Staek 'n Shake, say, and order a meal for under $20 that feeds the whole family, I go in expecting cheap food and mediocre service. In fact, I only go to that particular restaurant when I'm on the road to my parents' house. I want a quick stop that doesn't cost me much. When the server does his job, I tip $2-$3 because that, too, is fast and cheap. They may spend 5-10 minutes on me the entire time I'm there. They get a lot of people in and out. Most people don't spend more than 30 minutes in there.
On the other hand, I went to the melting pot for my anniversary. The bill for my husband and I was $100 and we spent 2.5 hours in there. Our server, who did the sort of job I would have expected for such a nice place, only had half a dozen tables and must have spent at least half an hour on us. When I couldn't find exactly what I wanted on the menu, he suggested a substitution. He elaborated on the menu items, telling us which were his favorite and why. As busy as he was, he never looked it and he never made us feel rushed. When we arrived, they had an anniversary card waiting for us! (We told them it was our anniversary when we made the reservation.) We left him $25.
Of course most restaurants are in between. I typically go to a medium to lower-medium quality restaurant where the cost of a dish is about $10-$15. Most of the time I would agree that these services don't deserve much if any more than the Steak 'n Shake wait staff. Over time, I've stopped going to the restaurants that have service like that. Our favorite local spots usually have service worthy of real tipping and so we do.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I have absolutely heard the idea that the nicer restaurants hire the more attractive people.
It reminds me of that Flight of the Concords song: "You're so beautiful/you could be a part-time model/but you'd have to keep your regular job/you're so beautiful/you could be a waitress."
It's also why aspiring actors are waiters and aspiring directors work in video stores. The restaurants don't want people who don't have actor-worthy looks.
I agree that the "percentage of bill" thing is annoying.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
Hubby and I were talking about this Saturday night; we went to a restaurant where kids eat free (up to 2 kids with each adult). We have four kids, so the cost of our meal was the same as it would have been if it had been just the two of us. It took us longer; the waiter had to bring out three times as much food and keep three times as many drinks filled; and we made way more than three times as much mess. Yet because the bill was the same, the tip would be (theoretically) the same. ???
Of course, we always leave a bigger tip when we bring the kids because cleanup is more work. But still. The percentage thing really doesn't make sense.
Of course, the whole "tip is expected" thing doesn't make sense anyway. I've said it before; I wish the restaurant would just pay them fairly and the cost on the menu was the real cost of the meal. Then if someone was phenomenal, I could leave a tip to say thank you, but for ordinary service doing just what's expected, they should get an ordinary (fair) paycheck and not leave me feeling like I HAVE to give them extra "thank-you" money or I'm putting them in poverty.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Gods, this just makes me miss being in Hong Kong/Beijing. No tips, no sales tax. You pay for stuff in natural numbers, no damn floating point calculations and potentially carrying very few coins.
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:In American dollars, how much do you think a server for a casual dining restaurant should make?
That negotiation should be between them and their employers. I don't want any part of that decision.
Thats an interesting way of putting it really.
If you look at the system of tipping at a high level, you could consider it a revenue/risk sharing scheme between the restaurant and the waiter. A waiter accepts the possibility of very low pay (the base wage) when sales are down in return for a share of sales when things are looking good. In other words, rather than the restaurant carrying the risk of having to pay waiters at a loss when there is less traffic, the waiters choose to take the risk upon themselves.
However, the reality that this compensation is now determined by the diner rather than by the restaurant (say, as a fixed percentage of the bill) explains why the diner is now co-opted into the discussion as to what is fair pay, whether its fair to pay for table time vs. food cost, and so forth. The result is that the restaurant has effectively abdicated its role to determine fair pay and has shifted it toward the customer to the extent that we have, well, this thread where some servers are essentially negotiating wages with potential customers as they normally would an employer.
(Not saying that this shift a good thing, probably far from it, but its kind of amusing in an explanatory way nonetheless)
Posted by lobo (Member # 1761) on :
I am fine with the way we tip in America. I typically leave 20%, more if it is a low cost restaurant. I rarely have bad service. When I do, I will usually tip 10%. If it is terrible, I will leave nothing and speak to the manager.
My tips are always in whole dollars and paid with a debit/credit card.
One thing I don't like is having service pushed on me when I can do it myself. I don't want someone taking my bags up to my room for me. I don't use valet parking (I hate it when that is the only viable option). I don't like it when people try to wheel my bag to the taxi (mainly happens in Jakarta and China).
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Then you should patronize those types of eateries...
I try to.
quote:...because a 15% tip IS expected, and usually warranted, and by not tipping you are probably expressing things you don't intend.
You are mistaken in your assumption that I don't tip.
Actually, I didn't mean to imply that at all...it was a typo. I MEANT to say that by not tipping at THAT level. No offense to you intended at all.
Providing you don't already that is. I know I do a lot of things I don't particularly care for these days, because someone else decided it was necessary. I go to class when I already know the material, and have to go though a training program designed for people with no medical background, for instance....
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Actually, if you look earlier in this thread, I've already said how I tip...
Posted by lobo (Member # 1761) on :
No need to get snippy... I think you said that you DON'T tip (leaving that duty to your wife). So the assumption that you don't tip is in fact a fact...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
As to me being snippy: My post was not meant to be snippy. I'm sorry if it came across that way. I probably should have put an emoticon in there.
As to me really not tipping because it's my wife that does it: Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
The Manager and the Tips -
I had a friend who worked at a Country Kitchen (I believe, the place isn't there any more), and the manager forced the waitresses to turn in their tips immediately upon collecting the bill. They would then all go into a jar, allegedly to be split equally at the end of the night.
First, that meant waitresses who gave crappy service, still got their 15% tip, even when customers were dissatisfied.
Second, if a customer stiffed you an a tip, it didn't matter, you still coughed up 15% for the tip jar. If you got more than 15%, you still put it all in the tip jar.
Then, just before the end of the night, the manager would open the tip jar and pillage about 30% of the tip money, only to later split the balance with the waitresses.
This is not the kind of manager you want.
My friend even got the waitresses to keep track of their tips to see if it added up at the end of the night with what was in the tip jar. Of course, it didn't. Further, the worst waitress in the place, who was making out great in this deal, went to the manager and told him what my friend was doing. My friend was soon fired.
So, the best waitress got fired, and the worst waitress continue to receive 15% for crappy service.
All thanks to 'Manager of the Year',...NOT!
Steve/bluewizard
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
Our National Guard unit often contracts with a local casino for some meals, usually Sunday morning breakfast. The cost of the meal is covered by the contract. But, no provision is made for tips. Early one Sunday, I was seated with three other guys, including a young Private. He was placing a two dollar/nine spot bet with the keno runner. I asked him if he had saved some money to tip the watress. He said that the Army was paying the bill. I reminded him that although the Army was paying for the meal, the young lady had to get up early and come in just to serve his breakfast, and that without tips she wasn't going to get paid. He withdrew his bet and left the money on the table. His kino sheet hit nine for nine. With a two dollar bet the payoff would have been above 50K. He was not happy for the rest of the drill. But, you can't argue with the Sgt.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I'm going to start tipping attractive people more, based on their good looks, just to counter the people who seem to want to tip them less for the crime of being attractive and having the audacity to work at a nice place.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:I'm going to start tipping attractive people more, based on their good looks
I'm sure you already do.
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
I hate to admit it but I often do tip the attractive waiters more. I mean I leave 15% to 20% for any waiter but The nice looking ones get a better round up. That's not right bu I have caught myself doing it.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I thought this thread was going to be about this.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It feels nice to be given personal attention by a pretty person. It's no wonder that pretty people get more tips.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
mph, I didn't take it as snippy, although I must have missed the comments about how you tip. It's all good.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: The Manager and the Tips -
I had a friend who worked at a Country Kitchen (I believe, the place isn't there any more), and the manager forced the waitresses to turn in their tips immediately upon collecting the bill. They would then all go into a jar, allegedly to be split equally at the end of the night.
First, that meant waitresses who gave crappy service, still got their 15% tip, even when customers were dissatisfied.
Second, if a customer stiffed you an a tip, it didn't matter, you still coughed up 15% for the tip jar. If you got more than 15%, you still put it all in the tip jar.
Then, just before the end of the night, the manager would open the tip jar and pillage about 30% of the tip money, only to later split the balance with the waitresses.
This is not the kind of manager you want.
My friend even got the waitresses to keep track of their tips to see if it added up at the end of the night with what was in the tip jar. Of course, it didn't. Further, the worst waitress in the place, who was making out great in this deal, went to the manager and told him what my friend was doing. My friend was soon fired.
So, the best waitress got fired, and the worst waitress continue to receive 15% for crappy service.
All thanks to 'Manager of the Year',...NOT!
Steve/bluewizard
Isn't that illegal in some jurisdictions? I thought I heard something about that.
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
Which part, the manager pillaging 30% of the tip money? I'd hope so.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
Okay, I won't pull punches.
My mother was a middle age, dumpy woman, red hair and freckles; though she has a sparkling disposition. She could never get hired in a nice steakhouse. She worked in a cheap, loud, country diner with the pervasive odor of cigarette smoke.
And she was the friendliest, most attentive, well liked waitress in town. Everybody knew her.
So, why should superior service in a cafe equate to less of a tip than inferior service at a fancy steakhouse. By what measure does the cute, young thing working part-time away from her housewife-y duties merit more money than the preternaturally attentive efforts by the person in the cafe.
Equivalent service equates to equivalent tip. It's more difficult to work in the lowlier jobs, so I'd almost argue that the server at Dennies deserves a higher tip than the server at Benihana's --- just for the sheer virtue of the fact that their job IS, in fact, more difficult.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: I thought this thread was going to be about this.
::happy sigh at a dobie averted::
You know, I didn't realize that cow tipping was a myth. I also didn't realize that you could cow tip in Fallout 3.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I have been waited on at nice restaurants by middle aged dumpy women. And men. And I find your characterization of women waiting tables at "fancy steakhouses" incredibly offensive. You are assuming they are part-time, and that the are married and their husbands have an income coming in and theirs are "just" supplimental. I understand it's an emotional issue to you based on your childhood, but there's no more reason for that to be true for a young, thin woman working in a steakhouse than for an older, fatter woman working in a cafe. Or a steakhouse. You are judging people unfairly based on resentment.
I have waited tables, when I was a college student, at a Crackerbarrel. I do tip well, and I do tip a higher percentage when the bill is lower and I know the server has done as much work as they would have in a more expensive place. But in my experience, servers at higher end restaurants tend to be more likely to be career servers, who have a lot of experience and provide excellent service. You find college students working part time at mid-range places and places that make a lot of their money from liquor sales. Looks make more of a difference there. In a restaurant where you're paying $100+ for a night out for two, the servers tend to be older and less there as eye candy and more there to make sure everything is taken care of. If I'm paying that much for dinner out, I'm paying it for the experience as much as the food, and if the service sucks you can bet I'm not going to tip as well. But it usually doesn't, because that kind of place pays attention to training and making sure their servers know what they're doing.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I don't know. I was at Denny's the other day and my server was grumpy, rumpled, and seemed bothered by the fact that I used both provided thimbles of half & half on my first cup of coffee. She shouted at the guys in the kitchen loud enough for me to hear what other people were ordering. Items arrived on the table with a distinct thump. I didn't think a thing of it; it's Denny's. It was cheap, edible, and quick. The server spent about three minutes on me.
If I went to a place that charged three times as much for breakfast, I'd definitely expect a more refined level of service. I'd expect both the food and the labor to cost more for a fancier overall experience. *shrug*
Posted by lobo (Member # 1761) on :
On airlines, the pretty, young stewardesses are NOT in the business/first class area.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Herblay: Okay, I won't pull punches.
My mother was a middle age, dumpy woman, red hair and freckles; though she has a sparkling disposition. She could never get hired in a nice steakhouse. She worked in a cheap, loud, country diner with the pervasive odor of cigarette smoke.
And she was the friendliest, most attentive, well liked waitress in town. Everybody knew her.
So, why should superior service in a cafe equate to less of a tip than inferior service at a fancy steakhouse. By what measure does the cute, young thing working part-time away from her housewife-y duties merit more money than the preternaturally attentive efforts by the person in the cafe.
Equivalent service equates to equivalent tip. It's more difficult to work in the lowlier jobs, so I'd almost argue that the server at Dennies deserves a higher tip than the server at Benihana's --- just for the sheer virtue of the fact that their job IS, in fact, more difficult.
I'm sorry you have such issues with this and I'm sorry if your mother received any discrimination due to her appearance. That does happen, although I've been to plenty of good restaurants where the wait staff wasn't all "pretty." But the fact of the matter is that when I go to a cheap restaurant, I expect everything about my experience to be cheap and the tip to be proportionately so. I won't give a $20 tip for a $20 meal. If I wanted to spend $40 on dinner, I'd go to a nicer place.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
I can understand why you would be offended by my generalizations.
Just like any profession, there are two types of foodservice employees: terminal and temporary.
Terminal employees have chosen the foodservice industry as a permanent career. Due to the nature of this choice, they will tend to be older (30 year foodservice career), and they tend to work during the day.
Temporary employees are pursuing another career path and are only working for a limited time in food service. They will tend to be younger amd work evenings due to school or seniority.
A nice steakhouse is going to have the majority of their service in the evenings. Just by that fact, they'll tend to hire the temporary employees. And when employees all have limited experience, it looks become a much larger factor.
Establishments that tend to serve earlier meals will tend to hire career foodservice employees for their day shifts. Career employees build loyal customer followings due to their service, attentiveness, and ability.
Sure, these are somewhat categorical generalizations. And perhaps I was a little flippant without explaining myself.
But really, as the basis for my argument, the argument is sound. A server in a diner serving a $5 meal deserves a higher tip than the server in a gourmet restaurant serving a $50 meal --- IF the service is superior.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
quote:Originally posted by Herblay: I can understand why you would be offended by my generalizations.
I'm not offended by them so much as baffled by them. My experience at high-end dinner places is that virtually all of the waiters are between 35 and 60, and have made food service their profession.
I would also consider Benihana a low-end restaurant, so perhaps that's why our experiences differ?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I am still disagreeing with your generalizations. In foodservice, the "prestige" shifts are at night. Dinner bills are higher, especially because they are more likely to include alcohol. Those are the shifts that people with senority want. In your mother's situation, she probably wanted a day shift so she could work while you were at school, eliminating the need for evening childcare, which is expensive.
I eat out a lot. I love food, and I love going to nice places. It's where the majority of my disposable income goes. And in my market, at least, which is a mid-sized city, you're just wrong about the disposition of employees. The temporary foodservice employees work at low to mid-range chains, because those are the entry level jobs -- Applebees, Olive Garden, TGIFriday's -- or at bars. The nice restaurants have career servers for the vast majority of their waitstaff.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
There ARE a lot of younger women working in nice restaurants at night, on busy days.
Why shouldn't there be? There are also a lot of men, and middle aged people working there as well.
I worked at a place where we did large business parties, usually for Pharm companies. It was a 3-4 start place, one of the best in town.....but it was German/Continental. That meant all the girls were wearing dresses that accented their....attributes.
I regularly got the best compliments, and had a large number of people specifically request me....both for parties and for regular dinners.
I quit when I found out that I was getting stiffed on parties. Some of my regulars were being told that I was busy (when I wasn't, really)..and all of the pharm parties went to the hot young girls in the dresses, regardless of who was suppose to be in that party room that night.
I was regularly screwed out of probably 200-500 dollars a week that way. For months. I walked in...to get 5 weeks of tips (same place) and found a waitress engaged in oral sex with the married owner, and I suddenly realized WHY she had taken my place for a $800 party (split 2 ways with another server) that night.
I found that interesting. So did his wife. Make that his ex-wife.
So....BOTH situations occur....which is hardly exclusive to the food service industry.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
Has anyone here read Nickel and Dimed?
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Hopefully not.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
ThisNickel and Dimed? Yep, I did.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I don't ever tip. I feel that it should not be required of me. If anyone gets salty with me over it, I'll just tell them I won't eat there anymore. Too bad for them, they just lose money by caring. Typically after such a display I'll be sure to leave a tip: a quarter underneath an overturned, full glass of water. It is for this reason that my life expectancy is approximately thirty seconds, as I sit huddled in my room, with hundreds of otherwise wonderful people working as waiters and waitresses, breaking down my door. Oh god, they're here, they're going to stab me to death with salad forks, somebody hel
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Poor Samp. What a way to go.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Getting forked...
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina:
quote:I'm going to start tipping attractive people more, based on their good looks
I'm sure you already do.
Psychoanalyze people based on nothing much?
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
I think the comment was because statistically most people do tip attractive people more. They may do it subconsciously, but they do it. During my time as a server, I also found that men got tipped more than women, maybe not a lot more, but when you're only averaging $7 an hour, that extra $.50 to $1 makes a big difference.
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I know I do a lot of things I don't particularly care for these days, because someone else decided it was necessary. I go to class when I already know the material, and have to go though a training program designed for people with no medical background, for instance....
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