This is topic Can it be ethically/logically proven or not proven that Porn is "demeaning" to women? in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.
I'm having a somewhat vicious argument with some people over this, they argue it is "degrading" to the woman to be objectified by being in porn, citing things like being economically forced into it, lower salaries, being forced to spend it on drugs blah blah blah rationalizations.
I know where I stand on this issue, I'ld like to hear the opinions of those better able to argue it or either side. (by hearing and understanding a better worded counter argument it becomes hence easier to rebut the weaker varient)
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
One might argue from the Kantian view-point that the women aren't being used as an end in themselves, but merely as a means to an end.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
You could start out by deleting the duplicate thread you've made so everyone posts in the same one.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
Mind you, my previous statement is a vast oversimplification of the problem.
There are summaries of arguments by both Dworkin and Feinberg (who is one of my favorite philosophers).
This isn't a clear cut issue that can be easily "proven".
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
You know, some people love to be objectified!
Who are we to stop them!
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
deleted duplicate, interwebs twher laggy.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: I know where I stand on this issue,
I'm pretty sure I do, too, thanks to your very subjective OP.
I'm digging the use of the capital P, by the way.
As far as proving porn is demeaning, I would say, no, it's not possible. Not in our modern society.
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
<Shrug> I don't think you can prove it. The arguments you pointed out about the financial coercion, low salaries, and drug money are definitely true of the prostitution circuits. Pimps and madams focus on grabbing young, teenage girls that are in financial need. Often times the girls have been for all intents and purposes kidnapped. It's a horrible atrocity and involves sex trafficking and other abominations to society.
The porn ring though, sometimes women enjoy the attention they receive due to exhibitionism. Others don't hold moral qualms about pornography and simply view it as a lucrative source of income. In the porn industry, I'd imagine that more often than not it is a choice made by the woman to go into the industry not because of coercion but the attractiveness of the benefits. I think that you could make an argument about immorality of porn (it is all the time) but I think it would be hard to make the argument that the women are being demeaned for going into it.
If, on the other hand, your argument is that the audience demeans the woman as nothing more than an object of sexual satisfaction in their own mind, I think that there could be a lot of truth to that and you could logically argue that one. But for the people who are the creators of the product? Not so much.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Why is it only women who are demeaned by porn?
Shouldn't a male actor be just as demeaned?
Oh wait, are we assuming that males are the instigators and masters of all sexual situations, and that women are helpless empty little pleasure pots?
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
People can be demeaned by something and still want to do it.
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
When confronted with this argument, I like to ask which came first: the attitude towards women, or the pornography? The drug problems or the porn? etc. etc.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: People can be demeaned by something and still want to do it.
Take karaoke, for instance.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Have you ever noticed how only ugly women have a problem with pornography? These are usually the same women who raise hell about beauty competitions and barbie dolls creating an unrealistic body image, while not giving a gosh darn about the rippling-muscled action figures that boys play with.
Perhaps we should call a square a square and say people who think pr0n demeans women are... jealous?
(Oh, and I'm sure some guy who is so whipped by his woman that he thinks he doesn't actually enjoy porn is going to come on here and say "but wait! I'm a super-sensitive, feminist guy and porn isn't right! We should end this form of employment and self-expression for women at once!" To that fellow I say: grow a pair.)
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Lots of women enjoy watching porn too. Just putting that out there, since I am sure this is one of those issues that the people who feel strongly will never in a million years change their minds.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
quote:Originally posted by jebus202: Have you ever noticed how only ugly women have a problem with pornography? These are usually the same women who raise hell about beauty competitions and barbie dolls creating an unrealistic body image, while not giving a gosh darn about the rippling-muscled action figures that boys play with.
Perhaps we should call a square a square and say people who think pr0n demeans women are... jealous?
(Oh, and I'm sure some guy who is so whipped by his woman that he thinks he doesn't actually enjoy porn is going to come on here and say "but wait! I'm a super-sensitive, feminist guy and porn isn't right! We should end this form of employment and self-expression for women at once!" To that fellow I say: grow a pair.)
But there are ugly people in porn!
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I'm a feminist, and I don't see any reason why porn is necessarily misogynistic.
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
There are also many porn actresses who are feminists and many who went to college and they still choose to enter the industry.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Originally posted by T:man: But there are ugly people in porn!
Sure, that's 'cause some people who watch porn have such low self-confidence that they can't realistically fantasize about themselves with an attractive woman 'cause then they'd just be foolin' themselves.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
quote:Originally posted by jebus202:
quote:Originally posted by T:man: But there are ugly people in porn!
Sure, that's 'cause some people who watch porn have such low self-confidence that they can't realistically fantasize about themselves with an attractive woman 'cause then they'd just be foolin' themselves.
So your sayin' that all women in porn are beautiful succubi?
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
I'm saying you probably watch uggo porn. Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
...
exactly what I was thinking...
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Pornography is evil filth that ruins lives and tears apart families and discussing it with such bravado in a family-friendly environment is direspectful.
Do you need to have something scientifically proven before you'll leave it alone, or would the faces of sobbing women and children be enough for you?
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie: Do you need to have something scientifically proven before you'll leave it alone, or would the faces of sobbing women and children be enough for you?
Proof would be good.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie: Pornography is evil filth that ruins lives and tears apart families and discussing it with such bravado in a family-friendly environment is direspectful.
Do you need to have something scientifically proven before you'll leave it alone, or would the faces of sobbing women and children be enough for you?
Overreaction and moral relativism -- the cornerstones of sexual repression.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie: Pornography is evil filth that ruins lives and tears apart families and discussing it with such bravado in a family-friendly environment is direspectful.
Are you speaking of addiction to pornography? Because addiction to anything can ruin families. Can we call everything that has ever torn a family apart evil (and let me stick in imagery of a child crying here to make you feel even worse)? Like say... religion?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Pornography is evil filth that ruins lives and tears apart families and discussing it with such bravado in a family-friendly environment is direspectful.
Saying that porn is universally harmful is like saying cars are universally harmful. Both can serve a purpose. Both, when misused, can hurt somebody.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I'm not so sure pornography in moderation has ever brought a family closer together. In that sense it's different than a general activity taken to excess like say watching television.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I'm not so sure pornography in moderation has ever brought a family closer together.
I know a few couples who would say they're closer as a consequence. I doubt they share it with their children, though.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
Porn in moderation could bring a husband and wife together.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: People can be demeaned by something and still want to do it.
Take karaoke, for instance.
JT
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
BB:
Ask and ye shall receive:
quote:Many worried people are reconsidering their jobs and pondering new directions. For Mimi Balfour, a Toronto-based television producer and mother of three young children, her new direction involved the production of a softly lit pornographic movie for women.
"When I started to look at what's available in adult content for women, I was shocked at how bad most of it was," says Ms. Balfour (who is using a pseudonym to protect her regular television gig). "It was poorly art directed, poorly shot, it wasn't sexy or intelligent and the guys weren't that attractive." She says there was little middle ground for female viewers --most resembled either the raunchy material made for men or instructional videos. ... Ms. Balfour's family has been supportive. Her husband offered editing notes and her mother helped write the DVD copy. "My children know that Mummy's making a sexy movie," she says. "It's a smart business decision, and it's an imperative product that needs to be out there in the marketplace. I'm proud of it." ...
One family anyways.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:I'm not so sure pornography in moderation has ever brought a family closer together.
I know a few couples who would say they're closer as a consequence. I doubt they share it with their children, though.
My feelings regarding couples utilizing pornography to enhance their intimacy are somewhat foggy. What is called pornography, to me is a bit too broad. I mean a video dealing with sex instruction is by most standards just as pornographic as "college vixens 8." But I'd say the former could serve some use while the latter is more dubious in value.
Mucus: That's a bit of a strange example as she is states she is motivated by the lack of material out there, but then wishes to make a business of it. She does talk about what is lacking in the industry, but it does not really talk about how pornography has strengthened her marriage.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Well, strengthening a marriage is a more narrow concept than that of "[bringing] a family closer together" which was what I was originally responding to.
Anyways, she's making money, she's proud of her work, and she shares it with her children and parents (which contribute). I daresay even the first two together are enough to bring a family happiness (as opposed to an otherwise equal family lacking the two).
And in retrospect, the example is interesting in another sense in that she explicitly calls it pornography but its also intended to cover a different ground from instructional videos.
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
Annie, I assume that by your post you are referring to a so-called addiction to pornography. I'm curious whether you think pornography itself is an addictive material or something else?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Mucus: But we still are not sure if it is a net improvement. I mean sure her husband might have "provided edit advice," but perhaps he is agreeing to do it because of the money it might bring in. It's quite possible their sex life is nonexistent and so she has turned to pornography. Maybe he has a pornographic addiction and out of guilt supports his wife's activities.
You are right strengthening a marriage is a bit more narrow of a concept than bringing a family closer together. She reports telling her children that, "Mommy is making a 'sexy' movie" but that does not really tell us much.
I'm more interested in pornography's ability to provide benefits to couples that cannot be exceeded by an alternative approach.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon:
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: People can be demeaned by something and still want to do it.
Take karaoke, for instance.
JT
Seconded.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Jebus,
While I'm not going to go as far as Annie and say that all porn is evil (I do believe that ANY method of trivializing sex is morally wrong - but that's a seperate issue), I do think that your attitude towards it is precisely WHY some people think it is demeaning. I don't think that every male in the world who doesn't enjoy pornography needs to be considered castrated! Maybe there are some males who actually care more about the experience than the image!
Also, I don't think you can relate problems with pornography to problems with barbie dolls. The problems with girls (or boys - but boys are less prone to care) and body image is entirely different than the problems with pornography. While I am not an overly attractive female myself, I have known quite a few who still think that selling little girls on the image of excessively thing wastes with excessively large breasts is problematic.
I personally don't think porn falls in the same category at all. Though the internet has made it somewhat more difficult, it is quite possible to avoid all pornographic images. Thus, the consumption of pornography is entirely voluntary. If you voluntarily choose to consume something, then I have a little less sympathy when the consequences turn out badly. Barbie dolls (and teen models, etc) on the other hand are plastered in almost every public location and media outlet you can think of. While it might be possible to protect your daughters from this imagery by living on a 19th century style commune somewhere, it's hard to do so while living a semi-normal life. Thus Barbie Dolls are MUCH more demeaning to women than pornography is. :-)
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:Overreaction and moral relativism -- the cornerstones of sexual repression.
I like how statements like this are allowed to be bandied about unquestioned, yet we demand absolute scientific proof that pornography is bad.
There's been scientific proof. There's been social proof. I'm a woman and I know how it feels to live in a society where I am constantly evaluated on my objective worth by dirty, lecherous men.
There is nothing uplifting or useful about pornography. I'm glad you have anecdotal evidence of people who say it makes them happy - I have anecdotal evidence of people whose lives it's ruined.
I probably shouldn't even keep reading this conversation, it's making me so angry. Sorry - but I'm not holding back what someone needs to say.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Who's demanding scientific proof?
You're just too busy hollering OMG PORN IS EVIL THE EVIDENCE IS ALL AROUND ME to bother to approach it rationally, healthily, and with a smidge of common-sense.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie: There's been scientific proof. There's been social proof. I'm a woman and I know how it feels to live in a society where I am constantly evaluated on my objective worth by dirty, lecherous men.
But do you honestly believe that porn is the reason why men evaluate women that way? Do men in societies were porn is freely available objectify women more? Scientific research does show young men with easy access to porn are less likely to rape women, so that seems like porn makes real flesh and blood women less into objects.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:Who's demanding scientific proof?
The title of the thread.
I'm not going to approach mass-murderers rationally either. The healthy, common-sense thing to do is to stay away from pornography.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: Who's demanding scientific proof?
You're just too busy hollering OMG PORN IS EVIL THE EVIDENCE IS ALL AROUND ME to bother to approach it rationally, healthily, and with a smidge of common-sense.
Me!
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
"I have anecdotal evidence of people whose lives it's ruined."
I'm sure that porn/sexual addiction can be vastly damaging. But freaking out over porn use can also contribute to the damage.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
There's the paper from the guy who claims that porn leads to less rape.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:I have anecdotal evidence of people whose lives it's ruined.
A lot of the ruining is in the context of an environment where porn is viewed as inherently evil. Women kick their husbands out rather than have "that filth" in their house, without considering whether the pornography produces any objective outward harm.
In the end the kids lose their dad and they gain... a lack of something that they were likely never aware of the existence of in the first place.
Yes, men should consider their wive's sensibilities when choosing to engage in such activities but the ripping apart of families is a team effort. The husband has to determine that he's unwilling to give up his habit and the wife has to determine that she's willing to end their relationship over it.
EDIT: Scifi put it much more succinctly.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: Scientific research does show young men with easy access to porn are less likely to rape women, so that seems like porn makes real flesh and blood women less into objects.
Really? Link? Isn't rape generally recognized as less an issue of sex than of power? Or am I misunderstanding that?
Oh, thanks. I was posting at the same time as you, scholarette.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: A lot of the ruining is in the context of an environment where porn is viewed as inherently evil. Women kick their husbands out rather than have "that filth" in their house, without considering whether the pornography produces any objective outward harm.
*blink* I doubt that this is usually true. I think, more often, the husband (for example) becomes less responsive to his spouse.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: "I have anecdotal evidence of people whose lives it's ruined."
I'm sure that porn/sexual addiction can be vastly damaging. But freaking out over porn use can also contribute to the damage.
Let me just emphasize:
It makes me sad when a marriage falls apart because of porn use. It would be better if the porn user could stop in order to save the marriage. But, in my opinion, it would ALSO be better if the spouse of the porn user could tolerate it instead of ending the marriage over it. Comparisons to mass murder seem to support my strong suspicion that it often gets blown far out of proportion. Annie, you might want to look up a presentation that was given in 2000 or 2001 at BYU called "The problem of pornography." It offers some insight into the social and mental factors that contribute to porn addiction and make it destructive and powerful. (Unfortunately, treating porn use as a hugely shameful thing is one of the contributors.) It is a faith-based presentation, as you might guess from the venue.
Note that I would not argue that someone has to tolerate a habit that steals endless time from the family, or causes financial hardship, or that interferes with normal sex. I'm not saying the spouse should endure humiliation.
But there's such a thing as a "normal" amount of porn use, and whether or not you think it is healthy or morally acceptable, it doesn't have to "ruin" any lives. Of course, if you react to it as something comparable to mass murder, the likelihood of significant fallout might be increased.
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
I think in most cases where it's a problem, the husband is just as likely to see it as an evil as the wife is.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:I think, more often, the husband (for example) becomes less responsive to his spouse.
What do you mean by "less responsive"? Do you mean less physically attracted? From the cases I have experience with that's not the case at all. I know of two divorces and one extended separation that were exclusively blamed on porn consumption and none of those involved anything like this. One of those involved a very very close friend and it was heartbreaking to watch what his family went through but there was no point at which he had lost interest in his spouse.
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
I think the point MattP was making was if you say something like "pornography ruins people's lives" you have to take into account what they mean by ruin.
Edit: Dang, I type really slowly Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike: I think in most cases where it's a problem, the husband is just as likely to see it as an evil as the wife is.
This is true. There is terrible guilt involved. Similar to what many alcoholics go through, except with pornography the guilt (and condemnation by others) is about implications of behavior, rather than tangible effects.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP:
quote:I have anecdotal evidence of people whose lives it's ruined.
A lot of the ruining is in the context of an environment where porn is viewed as inherently evil. Women kick their husbands out rather than have "that filth" in their house, without considering whether the pornography produces any objective outward harm.
Is it just "that filth," or is the wife starting to feel threatened and perhaps betrayed by her husband's porn use? Is the husband's behavior toward her affected by the porn? Is it really just the wife that's flipping out about the porn when really there's nothing wrong? It's hard not to see that as a misogynistic perspective.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Is it just "that filth," or is the wife starting to feel threatened and perhaps betrayed by her husband's porn use? Is the husband's behavior toward her affected by the porn? Is it really just the wife that's flipping out about the porn when really there's nothing wrong? It's hard not to see that as a misogynistic perspective.
Oh it can be all of those things and more. But it isn't always. There is a knee jerk response to porn in some people that reminds me of the time that my daughter broke down into tears when she heard that I was eating a chocolate that contained liquor. All she knew was that alcohol was a horrible thing that ruined lives and she responded to that rather than to the actual situation before her.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: It's quite possible their sex life is nonexistent and so she has turned to pornography. Maybe he has a pornographic addiction and out of guilt supports his wife's activities.
Thats possible. Its also possible that their sex live was revived by the use of pornography and maybe they want to help others as well. We don't really know either way, but I would note that a big reason we're going into this speculation is specifically because she is working in that industry. All we know for sure is what she says, she's proud of it, it makes money, she wants to continue, and involves the family.
quote:Originally posted by Annie: There is nothing uplifting or useful about pornography. I'm glad you have anecdotal evidence of people who say it makes them happy - I have anecdotal evidence of people whose lives it's ruined. ...
Despite the fact that may not reading anymore, I may point out that you contradict yourself. After all, you *only* need anecdotal evidence (assuming no lying is going on) to contradict your first statement. Your statement about "nothing" has an extremely high standard of proof which only needs one counterexample.
Its possible that *few* things are uplifting or useful, but "nothing" like BlackBlade's use of "has ever brought" is an overreach.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Why are you arguing rationally with someone who is clearly having a visceral, emotional reaction and is in no condition to actually think about the issue?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
OK, personal anecdote time. TMI warning. This is intensely personal but I think it's a useful anecdote.
I grew up with what felt like compulsive urges to seek out sexually titillating material. I felt a great deal of shame and guilt over it at the time, and that shame and guilt was reinforced by my family and my church leaders (LDS). I experienced what I can only describe as a self-reinforcing spiral of shame, failure, and despair, and desperate need to soothe myself with futher indulgence. This continued until I was about 20.
When I finally quit reinforcing the shame (essentially by removing myself from the religious and familial context that generated it) I was able to moderate my behavior and overall became a much healthier, happier, and more productive citizen. I didn't purge myself of the sin, but did change my thinking about my behavior. But like I said, it became much more manageable and stopped interfering with having a normal life.
Is this evidence that porn ruined my life? From a certain point of view, yes, it is. I realize that. But from my point of view, it didn't. What used to be ruining my life was attempting to hold myself to a standard that I didn't want to meet as much as I needed not to meet it.
It's terrible when people feel like their lives got ruined. And they only have so much power to modify their perspective, or change their own feelings. But that doesn't change my opinion that sometimes it's the attitude toward the behavior that is responsible for the damage, at least as much as the behavior itself.
I have no doubt that many people have been devastated by pornography, but I have a healthy amount of doubt that in a society free from moral condemnation of porn that any comparable amount of damage would have occurred.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:There is nothing uplifting or useful about pornography. I'm glad you have anecdotal evidence of people who say it makes them happy - I have anecdotal evidence of people whose lives it's ruined.
Have you seen The Reader? Not that it's uplifting.
There was a time when photographs of women in full length underwear was porn. Nowadays you can have a feature length movie about half of which is dedicated to showing the main characters naked and having sex, and it isn't.
One problem with this thread is that I don't see a definition of porn. Oh wait... "I know it when I see it." That's right.
I agree that there is a spiral effect, not limited to people that are addicted to porn, but to overall porn-ness. Producers of porn feel they have to push the envelope to compete, and dirtiness, badness, extremeness are the easy ways to accomplish that. Artistry gives way to business decisions. That cheapens the whole thing, and creates a greater distinction between what we call porn and what we call art.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
MattP: You have anecdotal evidence that men were not less responsive to their wives as a result of their porn use. I have anecdotal evidence otherwise. But it's all anecdotal, so... *shrug*
But, yes, I know several women who felt threatened by their husband's porn use, and a couple more who felt compelled to accept it, even though it bothered them, because they were afraid of being assertive and driving off their husbands. My personal, TMI experience is that, as a woman with a pretty high sex drive, my husband would not be able to keep up with me if he used porn as often as he liked. I'm not unrealistic about it; I don't freak out just thinking about porn. But I do feel a certain competition with it, and it would definitely be a strain on my marriage.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Originally posted by DDDaysh: Jebus,
While I'm not going to go as far as Annie and say that all porn is evil (I do believe that ANY method of trivializing sex is morally wrong - but that's a seperate issue), I do think that your attitude towards it is precisely WHY some people think it is demeaning. I don't think that every male in the world who doesn't enjoy pornography needs to be considered castrated! Maybe there are some males who actually care more about the experience than the image!
I hope you will believe me when I tell you that I too care more about the experience than the image.
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Why are you arguing rationally with someone who is clearly having a visceral, emotional reaction and is in no condition to actually think about the issue?
Pretty much.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport:
quote: Scientific research does show young men with easy access to porn are less likely to rape women, so that seems like porn makes real flesh and blood women less into objects.
Really? Link? Isn't rape generally recognized as less an issue of sex than of power? Or am I misunderstanding that?
Oh, thanks. I was posting at the same time as you, scholarette.
My understanding of the studies was that the major effect was seen amongst young men under 20. In this group, the motivation for rape might be different.
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
The short of it is that scans of college-aged men when shown pictures of women in bininis with the heads cropped off showed activation in tool-using regions of the brain, regions which do not normally activate when looking at people.
Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 5108) on :
Maybe because a headless body is not people.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Between this thread and the Watchmen thread I'm beginning to notice that some people are quite pornophobic.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Hatwackers is the kwaziest peoples.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
KoM: In case the poster calms down or alternatively for the benefit of others that may be reading and find her line of reasoning convincing.
Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
I disagree with the implication that if someone vehemently disagrees with the morality they perceive in a product like porn then they are by definition "phobic".
Attempting to characterize opponents in a discussion of morality as suffering from some sort of faux medical issue is not actually a reasoned argument against them.
I, for one, strongly disapprove of porn (anyone's definition) and my motive is certainly not "fear" of seeing people bumpin' uglies.
In point of fact, I disagree with the whole structure of the morality-systems by which people defend such blase treatment of sexuality because I value it so very highly within what I believe to be the proper context.
I've only known porn to cause problems for people. Hypothetical people "helped" by porn do not share my personal definition of "healthy".
(I don't have time to get into the meat of the debate, I just wanted to make sure that it is noted that Annie is not some lone voice in the wilderness, she's merely refusing to be silent about a point of view that a healthy portion of the people I've known share. Angry she may be, but that anger is by no means based on irrationality. Just a different rationality than some of the people here -- and I agree with her.)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I've only known porn to cause problems for people.
With whom have you discussed healthy, non-harmful porn? I have trouble believing that you or Annie -- just to use two examples -- would have patience for this conversation, and as a result are severely limiting your available anecdotal samples.
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zotto!: Hypothetical people "helped" by porn do not share my personal definition of "healthy".
And the same is most likely true for actual people. Like me.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
For the record, I just thought the word "pornophobic" sounded funny, is all. I didn't really mean to imply that people who disapprove of porn are literally frightened of it.
*edit to add And since I might as well contribute something to the conversation as long as I'm here, I'll say that although porn doesn't exactly rank up there with kittens and rainbows in the grand list of wonderful things in the world, I do think that many people generally overreact to it. Calling it evil?? The holocaust was evil. Slavery is evil. Lighting people on fire just to watch them die in agony is evil. Consenting adults performing sexual acts on camera to stimulate others is at the worst upsetting to some. Let's not make light of all the truly evil things in the world by clumping porn in the same category.
In my personal experiences, I haven't seen anyone's life be enhanced or diminished by viewing pornography, so my own anecdotal evidence would suggest that it's pretty benign for most people. Certainly a lot less harmful than alcohol or cigarettes. The morality of it is a much more subjective issue, and I can't comment on the lifestyles of those actually involved in the porn industry.
[ March 11, 2009, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: neo-dragon ]
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:I'm not so sure pornography in moderation has ever brought a family closer together.
I know a few couples who would say they're closer as a consequence. I doubt they share it with their children, though.
I'm closer to my main squeeze thanks to pornography.
She also used to be a Suicide Girl but that ended up sucking for her because the owner was a dirtbag, apparently!
Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
*laugh* Tom, I grew up in a Liberal home in Hawaii and have lived and worked for years in the middle of downtown Portland, Oregon. I have (or easily could have) discussed "healthy, non-harmful porn" with nearly every person I've had any extended conversation with for the past 23 years. Certainly no viewpoint expressed in this thread (or any of the many threads we've had in the past about this subject) has been news to me, nor has anything here begun to approach the complexity and depth of the justifications I've heard from others in my life about the supposed harmlessness of porn.
The opposite is actually the case -- I didn't know that the aforementioned "healthy portion" of people who share my concerns even existed until a few years ago. I have trouble believing that you -- just to use one example -- could possibly have enough information about me to even begin to speculate on what I have had the patience to hear.
Thanks for your concern over the size and quality of the source of my anecdotal samples, tho.
Mike, I apologize if I offended you, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with stating the belief that a generalized portion of people are behaving in unhealthy ways. I certainly know many people who think that my supposed prudishness is unhealthy, and I don't begrudge them that opinion, though of course I disagree.
(If, on the other hand, someone were to tell me that anyone who craves Reeses Peanut Butter Cups twenty-four hours a day is unhealthy, I would agree that their concerns applied to me in a cholesterol-clogged heartbeat. *grin*)
As a result, I don't understand what the revelatory "like me" bit was attempting to accomplish.
neo: Sorry, I didn't realize you were making a joke. It's worth pointing out, though, that it's not a particularly funny one to someone who believes as I do, regardless of how blisteringly obvious your little eye-rolling thing at the end there seems to imply that it should be.
All that your edit accomplished for me was to make clear that we're merely drawing the line between good and evil in a different place. My belief that porn is harmful is not even tangentially related to "making light of all the truly evil things in the world".
Just because I don't believe that porn is nearly as directly harmful as slavery or the Holocaust doesn't mean it ain't pretty dang evil. In my opinion, which does not erase your own.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Just because I don't believe that porn is nearly as directly harmful as slavery or the Holocaust doesn't mean it ain't pretty dang evil.
Oh, but it is indirectly as harmful as slavery or the Holocaust? or uh
Posted by Vyrus (Member # 10525) on :
I didn't read the vast majority of the posts, (except for the last one), so please ignore me if what I'm saying is repetitive or not relevant.
I personally believe, as both a feminist and a believer in sexual liberation, that somebody, anybody, as long as they are of a mature and consenting age, can take control of their own sexuality, meaning, decide the who, where, what, how of their sex lives, without having any lasting damage, and indeed, it may even be beneficial.
In a large portion of our society, now more than ever, sex is seen as being inherently evil or wrong, to some extent that some people view it as evil even if it's done in the classic missionary position, only for child-begetting, solely-for-the-man's-pleasure kind of way many churches seem to be pushing.
Humans are sexual beings, and if we're going to be healthy (STD's and pregnancy aside), fully, spiritually and mentally healthy, denying one of our most ancient and basic of instincts goes against the nature of man.
Just like certain things that are generally considered vice, like drugs, drinking, gambling, etc., it should be up to each individual to decide within their own limits and wants and needs what sort of sexual nature they wish to portray in their lives to fulfill their desires and personal needs-whether that's a completely chaste virgin until marriage, followed by strict fidelity, or a polyamorist, or a swinger, or a whore, or even a porn star, it's entirely up to them.
I hate that we live in a world where violence is largely glorified and is showed en masse, yet where sex is demonized and hidden in the back alleys, made be a thing of evil and shame.
It's not.
Sex is a thing of manyfold beauty, a way for people to express themselves-whether it's for love, child-rearing, or even just closeness or physical pleasure, nobody can tell you what's right for you.
Because it's a personal choice people have to make based on their own goals and wants for life, like something as large as religion to something a infinitesimal as clothing or haircolor, you can't tell people what's right for them.
I don't even think things like gender should come into the matter. We are (whether we like to think it or not) in a largely male-dominated society, that still tries to place women in roles (which most adhere to to some extent), which can greatly influence a person, but is never the final deciding factor.
Yes, sex, just like any other vice or virtue, can be perverted into a thing of evil, distaste, or even just be unharmonious with the nature of the person performing the act. (ie-good person doing things they're not really comfortable with.)[Edit for clarity]:So, yes, porn can "ruin people's lives" or be a bad thing, but it doesn't have to be.
It's like telling somebody what religion you think would be best for them.
You might only be trying to help them, but if it doesn't take, it doesn't take.
In synopsis, it's not so much a "wrong or right" or question, but an individual decision based on factors you can't possibly fully know about anybody except for yourself, the concept of "good and evil" is not even applicable in this situation.
[ March 11, 2009, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: Vyrus ]
Posted by Vyrus (Member # 10525) on :
Addition for reply: Indirectly? Could you provide an example, precisely? I'll include an obvious one, which is kids or teens getting ahold of porn.
Like, first, kids (!!!) get illegal porn, then they watch it, then, they learn things about sex that they weren't quite at the mental capacity to learn just yet, and get perceptions about sex and proper sexual relationships that aren't accurate. Yeah, that's a bad thing.
So, yah, systemic killing and brutal, rape, murder, slaughter, genocide of millions of people=sex on camera for $$.
I don't mean to be malicious, but I don't think calling "indirectly" or "directly" it could hold anywhere near the same connotation.
Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
Vyrus, thanks for the reasoned first post and the slightly-less-snarky-than-Samprimary second. I'm sorry -- I'm not trying to be evasive -- but I don't have the time to get into a detailed discussion with you. Nearly every statement in your longer post rests on a premise I don't agree with, and in order to discuss this at any intelligent depth I'd have to nit-pick your entire precis for longer than I can spare. As I said earlier, I posted so that the impression that Annie is some lone, irrational voice would be changed. (Cue the "Yeah, now there's two of 'em!" line. *grin*)
A few very cursory points:
Please recall that it was neo-dragon who brought up the comparison, not me. I've already agreed with you guys that, in the sense that watching a porno doesn't physically bash your head in against a wall like a Nazi might, it is not as directly harmful.
I have no idea how we could possibly design a reproducible experiment, let alone a control group, to "test" whether or not the net effect of porn in society throughout the years is a greater or lesser evil, though -- how can we scientifically evaluate morality?
"Porn! It's not nearly as bad as the Holocaust or Slavery!" is not the most ringing of endorsements, though.
[ March 11, 2009, 04:19 AM: Message edited by: Zotto! ]
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
But we're not making that endorsement. It's an endorsement based entirely upon hyperbole that you are using.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Sometimes I wonder if there should be a copy of every hot-button thread like this made, so that rational, cool-headed debate could go on in one version, and in the other version people can make unsupported proclamations, bandy about slavery and the holocaust as though they're perfectly reasonable analogies, and behave like lunatics if they so desire.
The first group has a hard time discussing things with the second group starting fires, and the second group doesn't really care what anyone else has to say anyway, so they'd be better off just ranting past each other.
*Edit: It seems that my wish has been granted. Please continue ranting as though I hadn't said anything. Porn=murder!
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Approval or disapproval of porn, obviously, has a lot to do with the way sex is treated in an individual's culture. If you are part of a culture where sex is thought of as something private, intensely valued, and/or divine, then the way the subject is treated in porn can be incredibly offensive and threatening. IE, "If this is how my people begin thinking about sex, then my culture will be harmed."
It's easy to be derisive towards cultures like this if you consider yourself to be "liberated" from such concerns. But to the people for whom these things are very important, porn cannot just be dismissed as harmless fun, the way it can for people into whose culture porn fits just perfectly. It represents a way of thinking that is totally contrary to much that they hold dear, and it is deliberately presented in a way that is meant to entice viewers into a certain pattern of thought that goes contrary to, and even erodes, values that these people care very much about.
If you don't care about these particular values, that's a choice you are free to make. But there is no scientific definition for "what a human being ought to strive for, idealize, or value". If someone has chosen something different from you, then they should definitely be allowed to treat as a threat something that actually does threaten the ideals they hold, even if you do not share those ideals.
Porn is a violation of a marriage if the people marrying each other both feel that porn ought to be out-of-bounds. If they belong to a culture where getting involved with pornography represents a betrayal, then no, you can't just say, "She needs to get over it!" It's a betrayal. The consequences of the betrayal, and how the whole thing plays out, is up to the couple. I'd like to hope that in most cases, they would find a way to work things out. But the feelings of betrayal are very real and difficult to get over.
I don't think there are a lot of women who enjoy the idea of their husbands spending a lot of their private time in a fantasy world full of nubile other women performing all manner of sex acts for them. It can be tolerated, but it's not exactly a pleasant thing to ponder. I think it is a bit callous (if not misogynistic) for a man to say, "Well, I like my porn, so she's just got to deal with it." I'd hate for that to be the standard of behavior we expect as a society.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
I'm also not totally comfortable with the idea of revising your ideals to match your behavior. IE, "I think X is wrong, but I just keep doing X, and it's making me feel awful about myself. So I will stop thinking X is wrong. Problem solved."
That's fine, I suppose, in an isolated case, if you truly believe that X is not wrong. But it seems like a really bad precedent to set for yourself. If your ethics are conditional based on your behavior, then can you be said to have any ethics?
I'm not saying that a person's ethics should not change as they learn and grow, and certainly, the situation I describe above can be come by honestly. But I wouldn't go recommending it wholesale to anyone who feels guilty about something they've done, or fails repeatedly to change a behavior they detest. In many cases, the guilt is appropriate, and the behavior is detestable, and the person should find a way to deal with it that is NOT simply deciding it's now okay.
Changing your behavior and revising your ethics are not the only ways to combat guilt, especially within a Christian religion. But I think people too often fail at the former, then resort to the latter, without really trying anything else.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
[removed a post that, so far, no one has responded to, and that I realized might not thrill the moderators ... my apologies if this is annoying, but I'm related to a lot of them ]
[ March 11, 2009, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Puppy ]
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zotto!:
"Porn! It's not nearly as bad as the Holocaust or Slavery!" is not the most ringing of endorsements, though.
It's not an endorsement at all. I understand disapproval of porn, I just don't think that it's "evil". That's a term that I reserve for things that are more harmful and malicious.
Posted by Oshki (Member # 11986) on :
I think that sex and love should be the same thing. Once sex is separated from love it ignores the personhood of the sex object and leads to such inane statements as: "But Baby it was only sex and doesn't mean I don't love you."
Porn is the separation of love from sex or sex without love. The more extreem the porn gets the greater the titillation but with a converse loss of any sense of reality, unless one thinks it is lucky to marry a porn star and then they might say: "I only do that in the movies and I though you loved me!". Porn is empty so more and more of it means emptier and emptier until one becomes jaded. But life goes on and one day your wife may say, after having a baby, "No, moms don't do that." In which case go buy a magazine or watch a porn show or say "I guess dads don't either."
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I think that sex and love should be the same thing.
But they aren't. You can wish they were all you want, but they will never be.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Now we've moved away from a discussion about the relative merits and harms of porn, and into a discussion of personal moralities and the expression of love. Does anyone here see one side convincing the other to change?
Vyrus and Puppy have both presented well-reasoned defenses of the two sides (and yes, there are far more than two sides in this, I'm just simplifying). It's time to go back to the opposing sides uneasily and disapprovingly coexisting.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
What is meant by "ethically/logically proven" in this thread title?
I think that if you really really don't want to believe something is wrong, you can find some rationalization to undermine ANY logical proof of ANY ethical claim. That doesn't mean it isn't wrong; it just means you can't prove it's wrong to satisfy someone who is intent on thinking it's right.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
"If someone has chosen something different from you, then they should definitely be allowed to treat as a threat something that actually does threaten the ideals they hold, even if you do not share those ideals."
Of course this works both ways.
But narrowing it down to a simple "porn is good, love it" and "porn is evil, detest it" argument (yes, as I also did the last post ) is unrealistic.
Some people love porn in all its forms. Some people consider any depiction of sexual activity at all to be evil. Some people enjoy porn that appeals to their personal interests and are disgusted, creeped out, or indifferent to the rest. Some people see porn as a glorious expression of human sexuality. Some people see porn as an undeniable objectification of the people involved, something that encourages further objectification of all people. Some people see porn as a pleasant entertainment, like a mystery novel. Some people are addicted to porn and cannot get by without it, no matter what that addiction does to themselves, their lives, or their families. Some of us have seen repression of sexuality hurt people, deeply. Some of us have seen expression of sexuality hurt people, deeply. Most people have a little of most or all of these.
Plus there's "porn" itself, which apparently represents everything from a shadowy hip seen in a PG movie to full on, hardcore XXX action, possibly involving someone being snuffed. Raging at porn is like raging at TV. Only the extremist would say all TV is bad or all TV is good; most of the rest of us draw our lines somewhere in the middle, based on our values and interests.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Puppy, I want to respond but will have to take time later. For now, I want to mention that some morality is externally imposed and indoctrinated, and questioning that is not only appropriate but necessary for most people.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I was going to write something more detailed but I think Chris Bridges has covered it.
EDIT: In light of the CT thread that's been bumped I'd like to stipulate that there is a form of beautiful pornography but it is not at all what is usually used to refer to with the word 'porn'. Here I refer to the generally lower class form of porn.
I guess the question is where does 'beauty of the human form' end and 'pornography' begin?
My original post:
I'm not a fan of porn (that is to say, I don't consume it). I think it does reduce both the consumer and the performer to something reasonably homogeneous. Since the audience is often (but definately not exclusively) male, it is the female figure who is the object and thus the one reduced to a single purpose in an unrealistic way.
Now, maybe this is a good thing. Other animals don't usually have all the bother associated with post-courting relationships. Once the female is won and the sex achieved, and further sex (if it happens at all) doesn't involve a lot of complicated second guessing for either person. In the human world, there is a lot of bother involved. Perhaps this fantasy of mostly bother-free sex is a useful safety valve for a society that is biologically trained to copulate but unable to due to restraints created by our ludicrously intelligent minds. Most of the time we seem to be caught between desire and the rules to control desire.
But on the other hand, is the presentation of higher-level-thought-free sexual figures (when they are) merely exacerbating this problem?
EDITED CONCLUSION:
Due to there being, as Chris B. already pointed out, a variety of kinds of "erotic visuals", it is impossible to draw a single conclusion. I think it is safe to say that certain kinds of pornography does reduce people, but whether that's a bad thing or simply a thing is likely due to the way the person regards the pornography.
[ March 11, 2009, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
The argument I was making in the aforementioned op conversation was that in the legal mainstream cable tv gov't regulated (ish?) version of pornography it is somewhat by definition impossible for it to be demeaning to women since its consentual, voluntary and generally afaik well paying job no different then any other job. The counter argument? They argue that most people in porn generally are "forced" into it by unfair cicrumstances (being a waitress doesnt pay enough etc etc) or forced from their home by abusive parents "forcing" them into a "degrading" situation. It gets funnier where after a cursory look in the dictionary informs me that degradation == or is equilevent to the word "humiliation" and then they try to argue that they are not arguing that it is humiliating and that they weren't arguing it was degrading despite using that word several times.
They also argued that women who do like being in porn have something "seriously wrong with them on some level" for liking being in it. And that they also argue that its impossible for men to watch porn and NOT see women as objects arguing a man never wonders what its like to be the woman etc, I of course for reasons refuse to answer that, of course they use that as admission of guilt and not admission to something somewhat more embarrasing to my manliness.
Which brings me to believe that trying to argue it logically with them may be impossible but I am willing to try.
And yes, they are funnily enough not what I would consider attractive it is a funny coincidence, then again my perfect ideal of attraction is a red headed asian whose born in russia.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Hang on, is this thread really about whether men who watch porn are sexist or are considered sexist or should be able to do so without feeling shame that stems from wondering if what they're doing is hurting women?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I honestly don't know. Women are fickle things.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:it is somewhat by definition impossible for it to be demeaning to women since its consentual
"Demeaning" does not mean "non-consensual." You can consent to being demeaned.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
then it should stop being demeaning, a job is a job, if your job is to wash dishes and you decide voluntarily to work there it stop being demeaning.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
scifibum, I made sure to emphasize in my post that changes to one's personal morality can be come by honestly, and that I only distrust this approach because it can be misused, not because it universally is ... mostly because I didn't want my post to come off as a personal criticism of your decisions Naturally, a person can change over time and realize that they're not actually comfortable with long-held beliefs without there being some kind of self-justifying motivation to it. I really hope I've made that clear enough Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
You can also consent to doing something you might not find demeaning but that others may see and use as justification for demeaning others.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:I honestly don't know. Women are fickle things.
If this is intended seriously, then this is more indicative of your attitude towards women than your porn-viewing habits.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:if your job is to wash dishes and you decide voluntarily to work there it stop being demeaning.
Why do you think so? If someone offers me ten million dollars to lick his boots, and I do so, I am demeaning myself voluntarily.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
As an idle thought, I wonder how much of the American opposition to the subject is weighed by concern for the consumer and how much is informed by concern for the producer. I'm not sure how to isolate for the two but one rough approximation for the first could be if we changed the OP question to:
a) Can it be ethically/logically proven or not proven that hentai* is "demeaning" to women?
Japanese cartoon porn, basically. I suppose isolating for the second would give...prostitution?
b) Can it be ethically/logically proven or not proven that prostitution is "demeaning" to women?
Probably both aren't very happy for the opposition, but I am curious how the two breakdown.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: scifibum, I made sure to emphasize in my post that changes to one's personal morality can be come by honestly, and that I only distrust this approach because it can be misused, not because it universally is ... mostly because I didn't want my post to come off as a personal criticism of your decisions Naturally, a person can change over time and realize that they're not actually comfortable with long-held beliefs without there being some kind of self-justifying motivation to it. I really hope I've made that clear enough
Thanks, I scanned the last 20 or 30 posts in a hurry and probably didn't read you carefully enough. I may respond later anyway to talk about relative degrees of ethical and moral concerns about porn.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi:
quote:I honestly don't know. Women are fickle things.
If this is intended seriously, then this is more indicative of your attitude towards women than your porn-viewing habits.
Obviously this was meant tongue in cheek. Saying "I hope this is meant as a joke" and left it at that without elaboration would have been more polite.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Was that impolite? If you meant it as a joke then it doesn't apply. I noted the fact that it could have been a joke. If you are offended by it, I apologise.
Whether the comment applies to you or not, it is meaningful. It is your real attitudes towards women that matters most. If you watch porn and you find it makes you treat women like carp or view them in a different way, then you should probably re-examine your viewing habits. If you are still respectful and considerate towards women, then you are okay.
As for whether the industry itself harms the women it employs, I think the answer is a lot more complex. If you buy clothes from third world countries then likely you are exploiting just as many people.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I'm used to people on this forum generally being overly snarky to me.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I wasn't being snarky.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Gee I wonder why they are.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: If you watch porn and you find it makes you treat women like carp. . .
. . .then you've been watching some very odd porn.
(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)
Posted by Achilles (Member # 7741) on :
:lol:
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Deliberate.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: I wasn't being snarky.
I didnt say you were, I just thought originally you were, I was explaining why I was being defencive.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I still am not being snarky. I am merely confirming. This isn't snarky either.
!
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
quote:Originally posted by ambyr:
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: If you watch porn and you find it makes you treat women like carp. . .
. . .then you've been watching some very odd porn.
You got me. (I find myself typically sauteing women in butter with a little salt and pepper and a twist of lemon.)
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zotto!: Mike, I apologize if I offended you, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with stating the belief that a generalized portion of people are behaving in unhealthy ways. I certainly know many people who think that my supposed prudishness is unhealthy, and I don't begrudge them that opinion, though of course I disagree.
quote: As a result, I don't understand what the revelatory "like me" bit was attempting to accomplish.
No offense was taken. The "like me" bit was to remove the hypothetical.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: I still am not being snarky. I am merely confirming. This isn't snarky either.
!
I know you are.
!?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Oh, Kids in the Hall!!! I had forgotten about them.
Posted by Oshki (Member # 11986) on :
"Can it be ethically/logically proven or not proven that Porn is "demeaning" to women?"
I don't think it needs to be proven that porn is demeaning to women. It is one of those givens. Enemies need to be turned into a less then human objects so it is easier to kill them. Slaves need to be turned into a less then human objects so they can be kept working and the owner can still get a good nights sleep. So to turn a human being into an object for selfish motives is wrong. Oh, that includes women.
The only problem is that women know what they can do to a man and how much it pays and sex being a powerful human fact of life, that unless all men and women suddenly are overcome with modesty, there will always be porn.
I just wonder: If a homosexual undresses in front of a mirror is that porn? I mean they want the same as what they see in the mirror. Maybe their issue isn't biologicial at all but a strange form of Narcissism? I mean they could be whatever/whoever they want vicariously. Has psychology ever addressed this question?
Don't men and women rejoice one in the other for being who/what they are without any vicarious overtones?
(The /"what" was added to who/ in order to cover those that need to see women as objects.)
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Which begs the question, if you clone yourself and have sex with your fully adult (although maybe a bit younger) clone of yourself, is that being gay or is it just masterbation? Assuming the clone is indeed a clone in every literal sense of the word (memories, personality, everything).
You could also think of it as, what if you went back in time 5 minutes and had sex with yourself?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Oh for goodness sake.
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Oh for goodness sake.
Agreed.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
quote:Originally posted by Oshki: I just wonder: If a homosexual undresses in front of a mirror is that porn? I mean they want the same as what they see in the mirror. Maybe their issue isn't biologicial at all but a strange form of Narcissism? I mean they could be whatever/whoever they want vicariously. Has psychology ever addressed this question?
Well, yes. A century ago.
Happily, it's moved beyond that.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
To be clear, ambyr, you're responding to the last question in the paragraph - right?
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: To be clear, ambyr, you're responding to the last question in the paragraph - right?
Yes.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
I have a hard time seeing porn as necessarily demeaning to one gender. Certain types of porn can be demeaning to each one. But as I've known just as many girls as guys who were habitual users of porn, I don't see it as a gender issue.
I don't use porn and I find regular use of porn to be a slight turn-off although far from a deal-breaker. I think that sexuality within the context of emotions and commitment is just a lot more sexy and exciting than without.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I can see how a lot of people would assume that porn is either primarily or automatically demeaning to women, but I don't necessarily agree. Like many other things in our culture, men are objectified as much as women in both exactly the same and in different ways.
Also, porn is both broad and specific. In other words, there's a kind of porn out there no matter what your particular predilections.
I do however think that overusing porn (like overusing anything) can be a big negative, in a couple of ways. One, like Tatiana mentioned, I think watching too much porn can cement certain reactions to sex that might impede rather than improve people's sex lives. There are certain Pavlovian responses you don't want to mess with. Second, like much of what television does these days, it can create unhealthy and unrealistic expectations of what sex should be like. I think there's a lot of that already in media, and I think it's been a net negative to society, but I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon. We've been having to attempt to sort out what we really want and what we think we should want for a long time now.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Which begs the question, if you clone yourself and have sex with your fully adult (although maybe a bit younger) clone of yourself, is that being gay or is it just masterbation? Assuming the clone is indeed a clone in every literal sense of the word (memories, personality, everything).
You could also think of it as, what if you went back in time 5 minutes and had sex with yourself?
Well that's neither her nor there. I'd call that narcissism at its' most extreme.
Posted by Vyrus (Member # 10525) on :
Indeed.
I think the whole "degradation" thing comes down to a bunch of technicalities based on what exact application you mean by the word.
1)Do you mean that it causes women, or others, to be "degraded", or to be viewed as objects solely for pleasure or sex, or as beings less than the person watching them?
Yes, this is sometimes true, but anybody that can get this view of somebody just from watching them perform a sexual act probably had leanings towards this sort of mental strain in the first place. The exceptions being what kind of porn. A man, or indeed, a woman feeling better than, superior to, or expressing pity towards the opposite sex for performing any sexual act obviously already had this kind of mindset and other problems of their own. Someone that feels this way towards somebody else, for say, performing in a donkey show, is probably a relatively normal functioning person, as this is a typical reaction.
So, sometimes, but not always.
2) Did you mean that women feel degraded, ie, lesser than, humiliated, etc., towards the opposite sex or about themselves in general?
As I've stated before, whether or not someone would feel personally humiliated, lessened, or degraded by sexual acts for money or on camera is entirely decided by their own temperament.
So, if you want to know if porn can cause women to be viewed in an unpleasant light, sometimes, yes it can.
If you want to know if porn make women feel this scorn and contempt and develop low self-esteem or complexes because of it: possibly, but not necessarily.
There are many actresses in porn who are perfectly functional members of society, of the family unit, who are active in their community, despite what they do in their "dayjob" is atypical.
They might, however, be viewed in an unpleasant light.
Semantics, eh?
The answer to both of these viewpoints is a resounding "maybe", a definite "it depends."
And, I'm glad somebody finally referenced KITH. I'm on a quest to look up every old episode [it was before my time, sadly, so no old tapes).
Every time I reference it IRL nobody knows what I'm talking about until I show them.
On an unrelated note, does anybody notice the weird parallelisms between KITH and Whitest Kids U'Know [sic] on IFC?
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
"There are many actresses in porn who are perfectly functional members of society, of the family unit, who are active in their community, despite what they do in their "dayjob" is atypical."
How many? I'm curious to know what percentage of porn actresses fit this description.
It's funny how we became a bunch of lawyers when the subject of porn came up. Don't make waves. Talk about it like it's a large sum of money sitting between us--clinically. Shush anyone who has strong feelings about it.
If the wife feels offended and/or betrayed by her husband's use of porn, I guess the husband can either explain to her that this is a typical reaction for some people, depending on their temperament, and that some people don't find, and why should they, porn to be offensive or degrading but rather derive normal healthy fulfillment from it; or he can put her interests over his and stop using the stuff and chalk it up to the compassion and sacrifice that healthy relationships are actually made of.
Or better yet he could give it up all on his own volition so that there is that much less of a barrier between him and his wife.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Being against porn as a hideous evil seems so anachronistic, like it's something straight out of the brimstone ministries of the mid-1960's.
I'm still, occasionally, re-reading this thread over and shaking my head with amazement.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
quote:And, I'm glad somebody finally referenced KITH. I'm on a quest to look up every old episode [it was before my time, sadly, so no old tapes).
Every time I reference it IRL nobody knows what I'm talking about until I show them.
You need some older friends. Branch out.
And I, for one, am one of those against porn as a hideous evil. Of course, I'm also against sex outside of marriage, so I'm apparently just generally anachronistic.
I'm not against porn because it objectifies or demeans women; more because of what it can do to the viewer. Personal experience has shown me that it can damage real-life relationships. It can cause distance and unrealistic expectations. Having a head full of other people does not bring one closer to one's spouse. The difficulties involved in a real relationship - having to care what the other person thinks and wants, having to accomodate their schedules and feelings, etc. - make it so that porn is easier than a real relationship. One may find oneself turning to porn instead of doing the work it takes to actually be intimate with a spouse.
Of course, this is true of any self-medication, but that doesn't make it any less bad for a person.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:If the wife feels offended and/or betrayed by her husband's use of porn, I guess the husband can either explain to her that this is a typical reaction for some people ... or he can put her interests over his and stop using the stuff...
Yes. And in the same way, a wife who is hurt that her husband spends all his time in his woodworking shop might reasonably ask him to put her interests over his own and stop woodworking so much. But at no point does this mean that woodworking is bad for all marriages.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: I'm still, occasionally, re-reading this thread over and shaking my head with amazement.
You're still occasionally rereading this thread? It's not quite two days old.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
quote:And in the same way, a wife who is hurt that her husband spends all his time in his woodworking shop might reasonably ask him to put her interests over his own and stop woodworking so much.
But woodworking isn't likely to interfere in the bedroom (other than taking too much time), or give him unrealistic expectations of what his wife should look like or behave like, or give him thoughts of other nude women when the only pictures like that in his head should be of his wife.
Is it so prudish to think that a man should be faithful even in his thoughts and desires? Pardon me - I mean a spouse should be faithful even in his/her thoughts and desires. It goes both ways.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
It's not too prudish no, but it's also not ridiculous for a spouse to fantasize about other people, fantasies are safe and they don't hurt anyone and are better than alternatives. Ultimately it comes down to the two people who are actually in the marriage. If the women feels the man she is with has no right to fantasize about other women, and he feels he has every right, and neither are willing to back down from their position then the marriage becomes incompatible. It's no one's fault, really, it's just the way things go.
But really it's silly to build-up pornography as this big thing women have to compete with. 99% of the time pornography is not competition in any form, it's relief and not a substitute and it doesn't change people's expectations or desires. I've used porn while in relationships with it somehow warping my sense of reality. Frankly, I have no desire to establish a relationship with the kind of women that you would see in porn (that is in terms of the limited amount I would know about this porn-star i.e. big breasts, thin waist and knows how to gyrate). It's not real, it's just fantasy, and that's the crux of the issue.
I can fantasize about being fighter pilot (to steal from the other porn thread), but that doesn't mean I'd ever want to be one.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Originally posted by JennaDean:
quote:And in the same way, a wife who is hurt that her husband spends all his time in his woodworking shop might reasonably ask him to put her interests over his own and stop woodworking so much.
But woodworking isn't likely to interfere in the bedroom (other than taking too much time), or give him unrealistic expectations of what his wife should look like or behave like, or give him thoughts of other nude women when the only pictures like that in his head should be of his wife.
Is it so prudish to think that a man should be faithful even in his thoughts and desires? Pardon me - I mean a spouse should be faithful even in his/her thoughts and desires. It goes both ways.
It seems to me that romantic movies involving incredibly attractive people that give people unrealistic expectations of how their spouse should look and act fit the same criteria that you are using to condemn porn, although it is possible that I am incorrect in this. If you don't think they are bad, could you explain where you see the difference?
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
I do think romantic movies can do the same damage (generally in women's minds, although I suppose there are men out there too) as porn can do. Depends on how involved a person gets into them. Little girls growing up with the Cinderella idea of love can have a really hard time transitioning from looking for Prince Charming to living with Mr. Right.
Anything that makes you wish your spouse looked more like {attractive celebrity} or behaved more like {unrealistically romantic hero} damages the relationship.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Anything that makes you wish your spouse looked more like {attractive celebrity} or behaved more like {unrealistically romantic hero} damages the relationship.
Wow. Sounds like people, upon marriage, should seclude themselves in caves or hermitages to avoid running into other couples made of more attractive people.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
Yep, that's exactly what I meant.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:If the wife feels offended and/or betrayed by her husband's use of porn, I guess the husband can either explain to her that this is a typical reaction for some people ... or he can put her interests over his and stop using the stuff...
Yes. And in the same way, a wife who is hurt that her husband spends all his time in his woodworking shop might reasonably ask him to put her interests over his own and stop woodworking so much. But at no point does this mean that woodworking is bad for all marriages.
Hey, keep me out of this! Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
JennaDean: if I'm understanding right, you've conceded that porn doesn't necessarily have such an impact, so when it doesn't your objection doesn't stand?
edit: that is, just like someone can watch unrealistic romantic comedies without distorting their expectations, there're plenty of examples just in this thread of people who have watched porn without it distorting their expectations.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
My expectations WERE distorted - I asked my wife to sign up for pole dancing classes - but she quickly reset them. Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
I have no experience with porn NOT having that impact. I just have to take the word of people who say it doesn't do anything to them. I will admit I have a hard time understanding how someone could have those images in their head and have it not affect how they view women or what they consider sexy; I know that images I've seen pop into my head at the most inopportune times. But perhaps that's just the way I'm wired, surely everyone isn't like me. I think people just need to police ourselves and know whether what we're viewing and imagining is damaging to our relationships and our ideas of intimacy.
Other than that, I can't honestly say that I have no objection to porn as an industry. My objection though is not that it demeans women. I don't like porn on principle because it publicizes what I think should be a private thing. That's where it differs from "romance movies".
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
And you don't have a problem understanding how someone could have images of handsome suitors from romance movies in their head and not have it affect how they view men or what they consider sexy?
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
If the husband spent his breakfast with the newspaper held up between him and his wife at the table and ignoring her, would she be out of line asking him to put the paper away, and would that be a reasonable sacrifice for him to make to strengthen his relationship? He could argue instead that he needs to read the paper and that breakfast is the perfect time to do it, and the paper isn't a bad thing after all. He could continue to argue that and wait for his wife to see the reason behind it, and possibly do some damage to their marriage in the process.
In this case, it doesn't really matter what the activity is. If it's turning into a bone of contention in the relationship, then a reasonable question to ask is whether the activity is worth more than peace and more closeness in the relationship. If porn is as harmless as some are saying here, then it shouldn't be a problem at all to give up for the good of the relationship, right? If, on the other hand, it proves too hard to give up and continues to get in the way, then perhaps it's a little different than the daily newspaper or a length of pinewood, and the problem isn't just a simple matter of time management.
I say porn is much more damaging, in stripping away self esteem, blocking clear and useful thoughts, and poisoning relationships. It is not necessary in any circumstance, the way hard drugs aren't necessary, and similarly addictive and damaging in the long run. It is attractive in the same way the Sirens were attractive, with the same consequences. Any perceived benefits it might have in the short run can be gotten by other means. Couples don't need it to enhance their...coupling. Wives don't need it to keep their husbands happy. Men don't need it to appease their fantasies. Those are my feelings about it.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
The last part of your post does not seem consistent with the first part of your post.
You go from talking about how couples can arrive at understandings about what keeps their relationship working to saying that porn is something outside of such understandings that should just be given up no matter what, as far as I can tell because you assume it will:
One, never help anyone, despite several statements in this thread alone about porn being beneficial to the poster's relationship,
and Two, be something the spouse will be against, again despite several statements in this thread about a couple both being okay with the porn consumption they've been involved in.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I was responding to two separate threads of discussion and neglected to make a clear distinction. One is that porn can get in the way of the closeness between a couple in the sense of time management and priorities. That's what I was talking about first. Then I was qualifying that by saying that porn isn't just a matter of time management the way reading a newspaper might be, but far more damaging. And I realize that some have been talking about the benefits of porn. I am saying that, according to everything I have experienced and observed, the damage porn does far outweighs any perceived benefits.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
"I am saying that, according to everything I have experienced and observed, the damage porn does far outweighs any perceived benefits."
It's VERY clear that "everything" you have observed does not include observations that might be made from this thread. In essence you are discounting the evidence that doesn't accord with your bias.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Could you specify what the damage porn causes is when the other member of the couple doesn't find the time spent on porn disruptive, and the one viewing porn manages to act like a mature adult and not let his or her perception of the opposite sex be distorted (at least any more than it is distorted by normal viewing of, say, romance movies)?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:It's VERY clear that "everything" you have observed does not include observations that might be made from this thread. In essence you are discounting the evidence that doesn't accord with your bias.
What she's observed is people reporting their own observations about porn. That's not the same thing as observing it herself.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:It's VERY clear that "everything" you have observed does not include observations that might be made from this thread. In essence you are discounting the evidence that doesn't accord with your bias.
What she's observed is people reporting their own observations about porn. That's not the same thing as observing it herself.
If so, then I jumped the gun. But my impression is that she was not limiting her scope to direct personal experience. (Or else would not have said "experienced and observed" - just "experienced".) If that's the case, stories about how porn is benign or beneficial for some relationships count as much as stories about damage done by it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:But my impression is that she was not limiting her scope to direct personal experience.
I'm not talking about just personal experience either.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
There are probably three or four general levels of "observation" excluding scientific study. I've ranked these according to how much weight I think they should have in forming an opinion:
1) direct personal experience 2) Stories you hear from other people about their direct personal experience 3) Observing other relationships and assessing what happened to them and why 4) Stories you hear from people about what they've observed happening in other relationships and how they've assessed what happened and why.
#1 has a lot of weight for obvious reasons. #2 should have nearly equal weight because other people's direct experience has as much validity as your own direct experience, and there's no better way to get the truth of that experience than to believe what they say (again, short of scientific study).
#3 and #4 should be discounted compared to #1 and #2, because most of the time you don't know more (or even close to the same amount) about the situation than the people who are directly involved.
MPH, I think you might have been telling me that advice for robots was talking about #3. I actually assumed it was just #1 and #2, but even if it included #3, I don't think it's valid to include that in the sum total of experiences and observations without also including #2.
Edit: in case it's not clear I'm talking about observation of personal relationships, not in a more general sense.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Regardless, my tone was overly snide toward advice for robots. I'm sorry about that.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I'm a he, by the way.
From your list, scifibum, it would be mainly #1-3, buttressed by #4, with #2 stories told in less of a debate setting than Hatrack. I am mainly talking about witnessing for myself the impact in lives over the long term, both in how they act, how they change, and how their relationships are affected--and feeling it when it was close to home. I have not seen porn be anything but more and more addictive as a person allows it into their life, and more and more destructive in the family. In my experience, it's not something that can be used casually for long or given up easily.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
If a husband is a woodworker, and the wife thinks he spends too much time in the shop, maybe he should spend less time in the shop.
BUT, maybe she has an unrealistic expectation of how much time he should spend with her, and she needs to get another hobby to keep her busy while he's doing his woodworking.
OR, maybe she should consider taking up woodworking too, so that she could enjoy his hobby with him, and spend time together that way.
You can make the connection to porn.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:I have not seen porn be anything but more and more addictive as a person allows it into their life, and more and more destructive in the family. In my experience, it's not something that can be used casually for long or given up easily.
I have to wonder if there is a cultural context that contributes to these trends, because my experiences are similar for the people that I know that are in a religious culture that shuns pornography, while not being the case for the people that I know who have consumed porn but are not religious.
*Edited a typo that negated the last statement.
[ March 12, 2009, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
afr: I suspect that there's quite a bit of a sampling problem. The only people you notice the porn usage of are the ones with problems. Given that there are a large number of studies showing widespread viewing of porn (particularly by men), I suspect there are a number of people you know who view porn and see no noticeable negative impact (at the very least).
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
advice for robot, sorry about the gender mixup. I think I inherited it from mph. Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP:
quote:I have not seen porn be anything but more and more addictive as a person allows it into their life, and more and more destructive in the family. In my experience, it's not something that can be used casually for long or given up easily.
I have to wonder if there is a cultural context that contributes to these trends, because my experiences are similar for the people that I know that are in a religious culture that shuns pornography, while not being the case for the people that I know who have consumed porn yet but are not religious.
Do not, please, lump "religious people" all together when it comes to this.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
He's not. He contrasted "people in a religious culture that suns pornography" with people who are not religious.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Do not, please, lump "religious people" all together when it comes to this.
Please note that I apply the term "religious", with a "shuns pornography" modifier, to a specific group with which I have direct experience. I'm not making any claim about broader demographics.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: advice for robot, sorry about the gender mixup. I think I inherited it from mph.
You inherited it from me? That means you must be my long-lost son! Or daughter. I forget. Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: He's not. He contrasted "people in a religious culture that suns pornography" with people who are not religious.
Right. Just wanted to add, for the record, that while he noted only two sets of people, those are not the only two sets.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I'm going to write here a bit about the cultural context thing.
I think multiple factors usually have to converge in order for sexual compulsivity to develop. Certain applications of religious beliefs often contribute some of the factors. I'm not quite ready to google "sexual addiction" here at work (though posting this and other things I have posted recently might be skirting the same line *yikes*) but Sexaholics Anonymous has some literature that expounds on this. The oversimplified version is that shame and a need to keep sexual acts secret contribute strongly to compulsivity, because the cognitive patterns that develop reinforce a belief that one is bad and unloveable, honesty would preclude acceptance and love, and therefore the only way to care for oneself is through acting out. Ironically, when all of the factors line up just so, strong condemnation of porn use or other sexual behaviors can cement their role as secret deviation & important sustenance. Ironic because in those specific conditions, less condemnation might lead to less of a problem.
This is, unfortunately, mostly apparent in an individual after a problem already exists, and hasn't been able to control his impulses.
It's a real dilemma. For people with religious or other strong moral objections to porn and other sexual acts, compulsivity and significant negative consequences for a few might be a more acceptable price than tolerating and minimizing the importance of widespread indulgence. Whether there's a way to fine-tune the disapproval in a way that minimizes the total problem, I don't know - but I do have my suspicions that the culture I'm most familiar with - multi-generational LDS in Utah - might be leaning a little too far to the condemnation side of things, based on my own experiences, hearing about situations like MattP has described, and from hearing the LDS church leaders talking about how serious a problem porn has become (how widespread the usage is within the church at levels that cause other problems). Also when people who I understand to have a similar cultural context argue about how much damage it always seems to cause, when people outside of that context seem to have a much lower rate of problematic consequences.
I mentioned a talk from BYU called "the problem of pornography" and I want to refer to it again - the speaker seemed to have a great deal of experience counseling LDS pornography addicts and spoke with a great deal of compassion and common sense. She advised against reacting to it with ultimatums, threats, or otherwise escalating the problem outside of honest discussion of feelings. I didn't catch her name or I'd look up her credentials (I'm not going to google the name of the presentation at the moment). My impression is that within the church - or whatever aspect of the church or university bureaucracy this woman could be understood to represent - the recognition is growing that cultural horror of pornography can sometimes contribute to the problem.
As far as I can discern my motivations in posting in this thread, I think they include wanting to help people understand that violent disgust is probably exactly the *wrong* way to react to something that is normal (meaning not unusual) AND widespread AND difficult to avoid. That is, if you want to avoid contributing to the cultural context from which emerges compulsivity and life-ruining behavior. Of course, I also have a little bit of desire to justify what I do IRL, but let me be frank: I'm not celebrating my use of porn. I haven't done a 180 from the attitudes I grew up with, not to that extent. I find it somewhat embarrassing and might like to claim I have the self control never to look at it; I've just found it extremely counterproductive to beat myself up about it, so I don't (and most of all I try to maintain the stability and balance that I've found, which was so lacking back when I saw myself as a lecher and a failure).
I think aside from the utility of condemnation of porn in certain contexts, there are separate concerns about the ethics of the industry. I don't start from the premise that God says so, but I still recognize some potential ethical problems with pornography, in that sexual acts can be emotionally powerful in ways that participants might not be prepared to allow for. I think it does, often, exploit and worsen damage in people with compromised emotional stability, or who aren't capable of discerning and acting in their long term interests the way most other people are. However, I don't know that any of these problems with porn can be successfully addressed directly. Rather, I think they stem from problems such as broken households, sexual abuse, drug addiciton, etc. I think addressing those upstream problems is more important and potentially much more effective than trying to control or ban the porn industry. Especially since these problems aren't necessarily intrinsic to the activity - as others have pointed out, there are people who seem to function at a high level, act in intelligent self interest, act ethically, and otherwise don't seem to be broken, who participate at all levels of that industry.
The above was what I wanted to address to Puppy before he left. He mentioned concerns with modifying ethics to match behavior, and I actually agree with him. I would not want to argue that anyone who thinks porn is wrong should just change their mind and embrace it - because I do think there are ethical problems. I'm not at all perfect in applying my ethics to my own behavior, and that was not the point of me describing my personal experiences earlier - I was making a separate point about the nature of sexual compulsivity and the relative level of happiness and stability I've achieved by altering the moral context of my actions. (And I hope it's clear that that change did not come at the cost of increased harm for someone else.)
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: I'm still, occasionally, re-reading this thread over and shaking my head with amazement.
You're still occasionally rereading this thread? It's not quite two days old.
Rarely do I go back to a thread and say something like "I really, just, feel lost, have I been reading this discussion right?"
So I combed this over a few times, just .. searching for words.
Porn as a moral scourge — people talking about porn as though it were wholly evil — really does feel anachronistic to me. I don't even mean that in an antagonistic sense. It feels so disconnected, like a bygone remnant of an age that worked hard to be *terrified* of its own sexuality.
When I hear people discussing porn as a Great Evil that tears apart families/marriages/mental health, it evokes the image of old evangelical fire-and-brimstone elders railing against the moral scourge of penny-dreadfuls and them thar picture machine shows saying that it turns good boys and girls into wastrels and ne'er-do-wells and puts The Satan in them.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:but I do have my suspicions that the culture I'm most familiar with - multi-generational LDS in Utah - might be leaning a little too far to the condemnation side of things, based on my own experiences, hearing about situations like MattP has described, and from hearing the LDS church leaders talking about how serious a problem porn has become (how widespread the usage is within the church at levels that cause other problems).
Apparently a great way to increase porn consumption is to foster a culture that demands abstinence until marriage, which lends a lot of young men to turn to porn to deal with the frustrations of that abstinence.
I was wholly unsurprised to find out that Utah consumes the most .. I don't know what you would call the figure, per-capita porn?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
You're referring to a study that indicates Utah has a higher rate of subscriptions to a certain suite of porn sites than other states. This is *not* the same thing as the most per-capita porn consumption. One factor you should keep in mind is that I could count the places in Utah where I could buy a dirty video on personally attached digits. Per-capita I bet Utah has the lowest number of retail porn outlets.
But yeah, expecting abstinence can be one of the cultural contributors that sometimes produce compulsive sexual acting out.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
When other people read that study, they conclude that either utah either
1. needs more porn per person than the rest of the nation, or
2. is filled with the highest quantity of people who can't figure out how to d/l their porn for free
I guess you've added a possible #3 for 'is the state with the highest reliance on internet porn availability'
idk though. On the whole e-porn is collapsing retail sales of porn because it's more anon and you also don't have to pay as much per minute (or at all)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
While I can't say that #1 is definitely NOT true, I think #3 is probably the most significant factor, and #2 probably factors in as well.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: advice for robot, sorry about the gender mixup. I think I inherited it from mph.
You inherited it from me? That means you must be my long-lost son! Or daughter. I forget.
My parent class was derived from MrSomethingHead, but I'm not sure I should mention the specific class name here. Perhaps we both inherited from MrSomethingHead. All I know is it might be time to implement the HeSheDistinction interface.
Posted by Vyrus (Member # 10525) on :
My moniker is ambiguous-I feel your pain.
Anyway, as for
quote:"There are many actresses in porn who are perfectly functional members of society, of the family unit, who are active in their community, despite what they do in their "dayjob" is atypical."
How many? I'm curious to know what percentage of porn actresses fit this description.
I'm sure there are no real statistics on it.
I know a large amount of porn stars, particularly those of an older age (which, for the porn industry, is anyone over twenty-five or so) that are married, and many with children.
This information is largely gleaned from documentaries, television shows, and research on wikipedia.
This information is only readily available for most higher-name porn stars, of course.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: advice for robot, sorry about the gender mixup. I think I inherited it from mph.
You inherited it from me? That means you must be my long-lost son! Or daughter. I forget.
My parent class was derived from MrSomethingHead, but I'm not sure I should mention the specific class name here. Perhaps we both inherited from MrSomethingHead. All I know is it might be time to implement the HeSheDistinction interface.
The HeShe distinction interface, which parses screennames for certain patterns, has been in place for a long time. You just choose to not utilize it by using a screen name which the HeShe distinction interface fails to return a definitive value for. Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Scifibum, I really appreciated your post, thank-you! I'm not in total harmony with your positions but that really helped clarify a lot of things. I agree that overly strong reactions can do more harm than good, forcing either increased polarization of the issue when "the user" so to speak, believes there's no problem, or deep feelings of shame and a drive to hide actions rather than change when confronting someone who does believe it's wrong but does it anyways. I know for me with my own laundry list of sins I commit despite my knowledge that they're wrong (for me) being confronted with horror or disgusts has never helped me do anything productive. I think most people's "overly-strong" reaction is probably due to the general feeling of permissiveness that pervades our culture as well as deep-seated feelings about it's moral status. Sometimes we try to overcompensate for other's lack of concern by dialing up our own I think. It doesn't really do much good; it's like lying to defend the truth: it may sound impressive but in the end the false foundation you've created crumbles and destroys any confidence that might be left in the real truth!
Hobbes Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Thanks for the response, Hobbes. Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
scifibum: I appreciated your lengthy treatment of your own feelings on this issue, it is one for which I can sympathize extensively.
It seems like if we crudely summarize everything you said you are essentially saying that being excessively hostile towards porn use can cause harm as surely as excessive porn does. Excess in all forms is harmful I should think.
But what of the matter of excess belief that an addiction is without solution? I can completely understand that pornography can often seem like an insurmountable obstacle, that after years of struggle to defeat it it remains strong if not stronger than ever. After confessing to having a problem time and time again nothing seems to free you from its' grip. Priesthood leaders can't cure you, family can't, friends can't, you can't. Other addicts stories of success seem hollow to you as they didn't do anything you haven't already tried. You start to believe there isn't any method out there that will work but at least you can rid yourself of some of the guilt associated with hating the activity and that certainly makes you feel better to a degree.
Only you can know this for yourself, but look inside and ask yourself if you've really done all that you could do. How many hours do you spend viewing porn and how many do you spend actively attacking the addiction? How much time have you spent simply hating yourself after viewing porn and how much did you spend formulating a plan to escape? How much time have you spent actually researching how to break porn addiction? How many programs designed to free you from porn have you actually attempted? I don't have much advice for you as only you know the answers to that question and I am not a therapist.
I only know that in my own behavior if I encounter an obstacle that just won't go away I have a tendency to just give up and wish it would just go away, sometimes it does but more often it just doesn't. I also know that when it comes to picking myself up and trying to go above and beyond what I typically do in order to accomplish tasks that I am not very reliable. Sometimes I need to be prodded by others, and sometimes I just need to be fed up enough that I am willing to go just alittle further.
I'm not sure if any of that helps you as it seems you have made some pretty distinct decisions as far as your approach to porn is concerned. But I hope you might reconsider that porn is unbeatable and really it's the attitude that it can be avoided completely that's always wrong. Maybe you think that you are particularly unsuited for beating that addiction, and that others are more capable. Maybe that's true, but I'd suggest that you always be open to the idea that it might be wrong.
If a solution for porn addiction was found and it had a 100% success rate, but was harder than anything you could ever conceive of, would you still do it? Again a question only you can answer. As for myself I want to believe that if I was in the way of my own happiness I'd find a way to remove myself as the problem, no matter what it took. But I am honest enough to recognize that I might languish for years letting the problem fester rather than sucking it up and doing what was necessary.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
BlackBlade, some of those questions are only relevant from the context that says "using porn is bad. Period." However, I appreciate the thought and effort that went into your post, and I may give you a more substantive response later. (Or may just send you an email because I really don't want this to turn into a "does scifibum have a problem or not" thread.)
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
I was going to say that I think BB kind of missed the point of scifi's post which was not about how hard it is to completely free oneself from porn, but whether it was necessary or even preferable to do so in every case.
It seems reasonable to me that you can look at the two opposing factors, the combination of which is the actual cause of pain - porn vs. religious objection to porn - and decide that perhaps it is healthier to give up the latter than the former.
BTW scifi, that was an extraordinary post. Thanks for making it.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Yes, you seem to be assuming that all porn usage is an addiction. I don't think that's any more true than all romantic comedy viewing being an addiction. Many people have absolutely no problem controlling the amount of porn they consume (unless you're asserting that the vast majority of people either are in a porn addiction but hiding it, or had great difficulty breaking away from it, since the widespread consumption of porn is well documented) in a mature way, like they manage to control their consumption of all sorts of other things. This view of porn as something that cannot help but draw people into its trap without complete and utter abstention is a sad view of self-control.
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
Scifibum hit the nail on the head, his experience is similar to mine.
Speaking both as someone who was a self-described "porn-addict" in my adolescence and as someone who has quit smoking, I say porn is not an addiction, period.
IMO an "addiction" to porn is the result of your culture's view of pornography (as scifi explains) and/or personal psychology: depression, angst, sexual curiosity and just being a teen in general. But these cultural perceptions and personal problems are neither helped by porn or exacerbated by it. It may seem like they are, but it only seems that way in your mind.
Compare that to smoking. I used to smoke to relax, to concentrate, to relieve stress and to relieve boredom. Fact is, before I started smoking, I had absolutely no need for any drug or prop to relieve those symptoms. I was able to quit when I realized that the symptoms cigarettes relieved were actually created by nicotine withdrawal.
I'm not a doctor, and I can't say I'm well read on this sort of comparison, but from my experience, one was an addiction, the other was a perceived addiction that stemmed from overwhelming guilt, shame, depression and curiosity.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I would not put the period behind "porn is not an addiction" but I think that there's a useful distinction between porn addiction and nicotine addiction nonetheless: one requires a certain mindset and cultural setup, as far as I can tell, and the other does not, and is more purely physical in nature.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
A porn addiction is no more damaging than a video game addiction, a television addiction, a knitting addiction or a Bible reading addiction for that matter. It isn't anything inherent in porn that makes being addicted to something destructive.
Posted by Vyrus (Member # 10525) on :
I think porn is not so much an "addiction" as a child-it's perfectly natural for a child to explore sexuality, and, as an adolescent, to watch far too much porn than they think that they should be doing.
It's largely hormonal, I think, coupled with a society (at least in America) that takes an odd stand on sexuality.
It's glorified, trivialized, flaunted on most tv shows and movies in what I could consider an immoral manner, (a lascivious one, I would suppose), when whenever sex is discussed within the content of a loving, beneficial relationship, or within the context of everyday life, it's demonized and portrayed badly.
This can also add to an adolescent having skewed or what they would consider "not normal" perceptions of sexuality, and means with which to explore it, whether that be experimenting or watching porn.
"We'll show you all these dirty movies, but don't you like it!"
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I imagine that most of the people who are opposed to pornography, myself included, are also against the lascivious manner in which sex is generally portrayed in the media.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: A porn addiction is no more damaging than a video game addiction, a television addiction, a knitting addiction or a Bible reading addiction for that matter. It isn't anything inherent in porn that makes being addicted to something destructive.
I knew a lady who was addicted to making cakes.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
scifi: I don't have an interest in putting you in front of a firing squad either. I don't operate under the assumption that all porn must be bad. But I do believe that pornography is abused more than it is utilized for good, so much so I can see why it seems reasonable to believe all porn should just be destroyed.
I was trying to recognize that if porn can be damaging and horror directed at porn can also be damaging, that surrendering to porn and deciding that it is unavoidable can also be damaging.
I tremendously respect your willingness to put yourself out there and try to help others by confessing to your own futile efforts as well as outlining your conclusions. I suppose in a world where David Duchovny admits to having a porn addiction and is simply laughed at it seems like people are starting to believe that pornography is only harmful when people believe it to be harmful.
I do have strong negative feelings directed towards porn for my own reasons, but I do not think the root of the problem is people believing porn does affect people negatively. I'm not saying you were trying to push that idea, just that I hope you are not resigned to the idea that you must view porn in order to be happy.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
BlackBlade, how can I put this? The terms you are using are still loaded in a way I don't agree with. "Surrender" and "must view": these grant the subject with terrible significance. It was that point of view that I found to be counterprodutive. Viewing pornography as something to either be defeated or surrendered to was not helpful to me.
Right now I'm happy to let pornography be part of my life, pretty much exactly the way some people are happy to eat more corn-fed beef than they should, or watch TV shows that they know are superficial and dumb, and exploit people's emotions, like "The Bachelor". It's not a "surrender", it's an indulgence of (relatively) small moral significance. It's something that I recognize might not be ideal in various ways, but doesn't define my life, doesn't destroy my relationships, doesn't stop or discourage me from being a good person.
I've already acknowledged that compulsive sexual behavior can be extremely damaging, even "life ruining", and there's no reason to minimize the importance of that fact. (Take note, budding sexaholics. It's bad to have obsessions and compulsions that dominate your life.) But equating "regular indulgence" and "compulsivity" doesn't work, and "not bothering to try to stop" and "surrender" have a slightly fuzzier but still important distinction.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I imagine that most of the people who are opposed to pornography, myself included, are also against the lascivious manner in which sex is generally portrayed in the media.
You're free to avoid those portrayals.
Isn't sex lascivious by definition? I'm not sure why anyone would want to portray sex in a non-sexual way? I would argue that sterilizing sex and making it seem wrong or deciding arbitrarily that only certain emotions are allowed, or only certain acts are clean is really the problem.
Besides, if some people can have porn-sex and be perfectly happy doing so, then it follows that porn certainly isn't harmful to them. Maybe some people can't handle it, and they should stay away, but it doesn't make it dangerous to the rest of us.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: But I do believe that pornography is abused more than it is utilized for good, so much so I can see why it seems reasonable to believe all porn should just be destroyed...
I do have strong negative feelings directed towards porn for my own reasons...
After reading the tread, it seems like this is at the root of a lot of the discussions. Someone has a personal problem with porn, for whatever reason, and then makes the unfounded assumption that because they have personally seen porn be destructive, it must be that way for everyone.
It seems to be a natural way of human though. I like the way this church makes me feel, so it must be The Right Church. I like this team, so all other teams suck. I find porn destructive, so it must be destructive for all people.
It's really not the case, no mater how appealing it may be to fall to that sort of thinking.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: ... I suppose in a world where David Duchovny admits to having a porn addiction and is simply laughed at ...
For the record, AFAIK, I believe that this refers to:
quote:Duchovny's announcement on Thursday that he was voluntarily going into rehab for sex addiction after years of denying he had a problem, threw a spotlight on a disorder that few celebrities, and even fewer ordinary men and women, admit to.
Often likened to alcoholism, drug addiction or gambling, sex addiction is a form of compulsive behavior which is sending growing numbers of people into therapy but which is not formally recognized as a "diagnosable disorder" by the American Psychiatric Association.
"The concept of sexual addiction is a controversial one and that's because it is difficult to define," said Dr. Steve Eichel, an addiction specialist who works in Delaware.
"There are a lot of people who are critical of the concept because we live in a society that tends to over medicalize and which makes every behavior, which deviates from the norm, an addiction or a disorder," Eichel said.
Sexual health experts estimate that about 3-5 percent of Americans have the disorder, including women.
According to the Mayo Clinic, symptoms range from rampant promiscuity to spending hours looking at pornography and using sex to escape from problems such as depression or stress. It is often accompanied by secrecy and shame, and sufferers have difficulties with emotional intimacy.
"The Internet has provided a level of access (to pornography) that was previously unavailable. So many people have this problem and the Internet has driven that," said Rob Weiss, executive director of the Sexual Recovery Institute in Los Angeles.
It didn't help that Duchovny was (is) starring in a funny show wherein he plays a man who has sex with an awful lot of different women. When I heard about his sex addiction my very first thought was that it was a publicity stunt for the second season of "Californication."
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: But I do believe that pornography is abused more than it is utilized for good, so much so I can see why it seems reasonable to believe all porn should just be destroyed...
I do have strong negative feelings directed towards porn for my own reasons...
After reading the tread, it seems like this is at the root of a lot of the discussions. Someone has a personal problem with porn, for whatever reason, and then makes the unfounded assumption that because they have personally seen porn be destructive, it must be that way for everyone.
It seems to be a natural way of human though. I like the way this church makes me feel, so it must be The Right Church. I like this team, so all other teams suck. I find porn destructive, so it must be destructive for all people.
It's really not the case, no mater how appealing it may be to fall to that sort of thinking.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt because my post was not particularly clear on the point you responded to. When I said "I can see why it seems reasonable..." I was not saying, "I think it's reasonable..." I was saying, "I can see why some think it's reasonable..." I was not condoning the destruction of all pornography. I don't think I've ever made the statement that whatever is good or bad for BlackBlade must be that way for everyone else. Now that I've done my best to clear that up for you I'll thank you to not make that that accusation in the future unless I go out of my way to say the opposite of what I say in this post.
Furthermore we've discussed feelings and spirituality in other threads, if you came away with the conclusion that BlackBlade believes whatever makes him feel good, you'd do well to read those threads again, because I do not feel that way. I do not feel this way because if somebody injected heroin into me and I was unawares then I would be in the unfortunate position of believing heroin to be a righteous thing until I started suffering withdrawal in which case I would apostatize. That would be a pretty silly way to live.
By all means live your life how you see fit, if you feel porn makes you a more well rounded and attractive individual good for you. For me it does no such thing, nor do I believe that if I just used it healthily that it would provide me some unique benefit of which I am in need of. Until I see something that leads me to believe otherwise that is how I see things.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
You can see why some think it's reasonable to destroy all porn, and so can I. I just happen to believe that the reason some people think it's reasonable to destroy all porn is nothing but personal bias taken to the extreme.
I'm not saying porn is the second coming of Jesus, but it's patently absurd for anyone to think that it is at all "reasonable" to want it all destroyed. In fact, that's about as far from reasonable as if someone said that it should be required reading in Jr. High.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: You can see why some think it's reasonable to destroy all porn, and so can I. I just happen to believe that the reason some people think it's reasonable to destroy all porn is nothing but personal bias taken to the extreme.
I'm not saying porn is the second coming of Jesus, but it's patently absurd for anyone to think that it is at all "reasonable" to want it all destroyed. In fact, that's about as far from reasonable as if someone said that it should be required reading in Jr. High.
I'm surprised that I can agree with your entire post, I'd be happy if that happened more often.
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