First off, YAY WE"RE BACK!!! Ok back to business...
I promise you this is not as ignorant a question as it seems. And I promise you this is not a joke, so read on. I'm not sure if this should go in the general area, but it's a serious topic, so we'll start here.
I work at a place where my 21 year old coworkers think i'm 22(really off) because of the way I talk apparently... My guy friends visited me and my coworker sees them. He comments "omg, they're so gay!" And I said that one of them is bisexual. He said it's the same thing as being gay. So this becomes a heated argument that turns into a gendered divided mess in the store where the girls said it's different and the guys said it's the same.
This question is now the topic of my 'gender in a global perspective' paper. So if you have time, could you help me out and take this survey?
I'm posting the survey up at other places, and things get kinda meshed together. But I kinda wanna know what you guys think. So...what do you think?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
This is one of the more confusing spam posts I've seen.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
No kidding. I'm not taking the survey unless I get some cigarettes and Russian brides.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I applaud the new and inventive approach to spam.
Originality is underrated.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Wow. Honestly, I was going to take this seriously, particularly given the "petra" part of the name.
But I actually went and did the survey. It's just a regular 10 question survey. No hidden surprises.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
This isn't spam. It was posted over on Pweb by a longstanding member of the forums. Okay, so maybe that's still spam here, but it's not trying to sell you anything or kill your computers.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
What's Pweb?
Posted by YoYo Pwnzer (Member # 11790) on :
I took the survey, didn't seem like spam to me.
I would like to see the trend though....
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Some of those questions made me think, though. Especially concerning the acceptance of bisexuality in men vs. women, and the acceptance of bisexuality vs. homosexuality.
I suppose that could be the result of one too many people telling me "Bisexuals are just straight people wanting to be different" or "bisexuals are just gays who don't want to come completely out of the closet." Both of which are utter rubbish.
I would, however, be interested in hearing what others here think on the matter. For a while now, since I actually researched it and got to the age where I could understand it, held to the theory that sexuality is more fluid. No one is 100% homosexual, no one is 100% heterosexual- most people fall somewhere in between, so it's not something we can shove into a neat little box with our pretty (or ugly) little labels.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Uh, huh. So what would make me 5% gay?
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I didn't think this was spam when I read it. I think it's a perfectly good question.
quote:Originally posted by Tinros: For a while now, since I actually researched it and got to the age where I could understand it, held to the theory that sexuality is more fluid. No one is 100% homosexual, no one is 100% heterosexual- most people fall somewhere in between, so it's not something we can shove into a neat little box with our pretty (or ugly) little labels.
I definitely think homosexuality exists on a scale. I said as much in the survey. So I guess that would mean that I do sort of think that homosexuality and bisexuality are the same thing...just to different extremes.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: I didn't think this was spam when I read it. I think it's a perfectly good question.
quote:Originally posted by Tinros: For a while now, since I actually researched it and got to the age where I could understand it, held to the theory that sexuality is more fluid. No one is 100% homosexual, no one is 100% heterosexual- most people fall somewhere in between, so it's not something we can shove into a neat little box with our pretty (or ugly) little labels.
I definitely think homosexuality exists on a scale. I said as much in the survey. So I guess that would mean that I do sort of think that homosexuality and bisexuality are the same thing...just to different extremes.
But then wouldn't heterosexualty and bisexuality be the same thing, too, just to different extremes?
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Yes.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: Uh, huh. So what would make me 5% gay?
It's like in Songmaster. If you have the capacity to be attracted sexually and romantically to a member of the same sex, but only in extreme cases, so that 95% of the time, the person you feel that for is going to be a member of the opposite sex.
I disagree that no one is completely straight or completely gay. The Kinsey scale makes a lot more sense to me. A Kinsey 0 is completely straight, a Kinsey 6 is completely gay, and a Kinsey 3 is completely bi (no stronger preference at all either way). I suspect it's a distorted bell-shaped curve.
But I do think there are 0s and 6s.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
That was my point. It's just silly to think that nobody is 100% either way.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
Indeed. It's a declaration of metaphysical necessity backed by... an opinion?
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: Uh, huh. So what would make me 5% gay?
Enjoying musicals.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
I can see the 5% gay. For me, I don't think that the idea of being with another woman is completely repulsive. I just think she would have to be smokin, like a 10 in every way. For a man, I really just need a 7 and in a pinch, I'd go for a 6. Since I am married, it all hypothetical of course. But if you figure out the number of people you could be attracted to and divide by the number of men you are interested, there's your percent straight (or gay if you are a guy). Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
I know that I have met guys who claim and I believe are bisexual, not gay. I also think that it's better to think of it as a sliding scale. Women in todays society simply find it easier to explore their sexuality while men get labeled gay if they so much as try it once under even the most special of circumstances.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
I know a guy who claims to be gay, but I think is bisexual. When part of your coming out speech is how hard it was to know for sure that you are gay because you still find girls attractive, you are probably bi. Maybe a 4 or 5 on the Kinsey scale, but definitely not just gay.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
It's always been clear to me that sexuality rides on a scale with two axes. One line is preference, with 100% straight on one end, 100% gay on the other, and the bulk of humanity trending strongly toward the straight side. Of course there can be 100% straights and gays. They're at the ends of the scale.
The other line would be intensity, with Alpha Male/Female on one end (people who are sexual all the time) and asexuals on the other (people with no interest in or drive towards sex whatsoever) on the other. Again, most of humanity falls closer to the Alpha end.
And your point on that scale can change, drastically. For many, probably most people their preference is fixed and immutable, but for some it can change at different times in their lives, under different conditions. Their point on the intensity axis definitely moves due to changes in hormones, health, or psychology.
(There should also be a third axis for gender identity, with the bulk of humanity identifying with their physical gender and a smaller percentage spreading out towards the "I identify with the opposite gender" end, but that's a different argument.)
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
I have a survey of my own in which I let people self identify rather than asking a lot of tricky questions to give me the conclusions I want.
My survey involves three questions. The first is gender identity. Next is Sexual Tendencies; you can have certain sexual tendencies without ever acting on them. The last is, Sexual Preference; this is not about feeling but about inclinations toward actions, and I let people tell me who and what they are.
I did find out one thing from my survey of over 1100 people. Straight boys will allow themselves more gay tendencies and still call themselves straight. Whereas gay people will only allow a very slight straight tendency before they stop identifying as gay.
Conclusion, straight boys are more gay than you might think.
As to bisexual, from a certain perspective, I think we are all bisexual, some just more than others. I think there are counter gender (for lack of a better way to say it) tendencies in all of us, but in may, those tendencies are so minor they can be ignored. But just because you ignore it, doesn't mean it isn't there.
So, gay people are really bisexuals with very strong leanings toward same sex, and equally straight people are just bisexual with strong leanings towards opposite sex.
But then, that's just my opinion.
Steve/bluewizard
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Actually, I think there's like a double Kinsey scale. One for sexual attraction and one for romantic/affectional attraction.
I know women who wish they could be sexually attracted to other women, because they fall for them emotionally and never do for men, but it's only men that turn them on sexually.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
BW, I don't think that is true. I have no issues with people being either, but I cannot ever remember being attracted to a man physically. I have a best friend who I am very close to, but I can't imagine being sexually attracted to him. It just doesn't work for me.
Not everyone is part bisexual. Some of us, perhaps, but not all of us.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:I know women who wish they could be sexually attracted to other women, because they fall for them emotionally and never do for men, but it's only men that turn them on sexually.
I think by definition, these women are not gay. Strong emotional affection for someone doesn't always have to be about sex. Especially when girls are young or teenagers, they often have relationships with friends that if they were opposite genders would be labeled a romance. However, it isn't, precisely BECAUSE they are not sexually attracted to the other person. That creates a space to work out and have these extreme emotions - which come with the "being young" territory - without all the complications that actual romantic attachment can bring.
Labeling those experiences as a kind of gay or tying ALL strong emotional experiences to romance or sex doesn't account for the reason those experiences are so useful and attractive and essential: they are safe because of the absense of romance or sex or both.
[ April 30, 2009, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
The "Everyone's bisexual" argument dilutes the concept of bisexuality to the point where it is no longer useful.
Yes, everyone might have some bisexual tendancies, but most people are straight, some people are gay and some people are bisexual.
That is, having a handful of gay fantasies and experiences when the majority of your fantasies and experiences are straight (or vice versa) does NOT make you bisexual.
Bisexuality is a theme of attraction to both sexes that runs through your life. It doesn't have to be equal but attraction to both sexes need to be significant, not "Oh this one time in college" or even "I was in prison for 5 years."
As to the original question... Bisexuality and homosexuality share a large number of common experiences and obstacles. We are closely related sexual minorities to the point that a bi person might refer to him or herself as gay, but we're not exactly the same.
When I was talking to a friend, many years ago, about coming out to my parents and how I was going to be disowned (I wasn't) even though I was just bi and not gay, my friend said "Bi or gay, you're still Queer."
And for good or ill, those who see us as family as well as those who mean us harm, that's all that matters.
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
At one point it was amusing and fun to label myself as bisexual. Now I hesitate to use the term. It's turned trendy in some circles and viewed with skepticism. As I'm in a long term relationship it doesn't seem relevant.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Dab: I'm monogamously married. I am still bisexual.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Pixie: I'm a little confused about what you think bisexual means. What do you think makes someone bisexual? You consider yourself bisexual, even though you haven't been involved with a woman in many years. So is it a matter of sexual attraction? Could someone be bisexual without ever having had a same sex encounter?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Christine: Can a priest with a vow of celibacy still be heterosexual?
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Of course he can. I think this is where I got confused:
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: That is, having a handful of gay fantasies and experiences when the majority of your fantasies and experiences are straight (or vice versa) does NOT make you bisexual.
Bisexuality is a theme of attraction to both sexes that runs through your life. It doesn't have to be equal but attraction to both sexes need to be significant, not "Oh this one time in college" or even "I was in prison for 5 years."
I guess it's because I would have thought that having some homosexual fantasies when the majority of your fantasies are straight would make you a little bit bisexual....on the sliding scale that some of us have brought up. If that's not the case, then where is the line?
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Can a virgin be heterosexual?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Christine: We beat this to death for years on soc.bi back in the Usenet days... the consensus was that you were bi if you identified as bi.
I never liked that.
I personally would draw the line at around 30-70 or at the very least the ability to be happy in a long term committed relationship with either sex.
If you're fooling around a time or two in college or circumstantially bi for some other reason, but it made up a small part of your love life, they're the minority of your fantasies and you wouldn't want to be with a member of the same sex for the rest of your life, then you're not bi for any useful definition of the word "Bi."
You're just horny.
The sliding scale is great for pointing out people's hypocrisies and such, but a guy who got a handjob from his buddy once has little in common with the gay guy who slept with a woman to figure figure out he was gay. Yet by the sliding scale definition, they're both bi.
And neither of them are anything like the person who sees gender as about as important as hair color.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Thanks for clearing that up.
One thing the sliding scale idea helped me do was to put the whole question into perspective. I was raised in a conservative home where my father told me that if I ever felt that I was gay I should tell him so he could get me psychological help. So when I did sometimes have lesbian fantasies, I felt sick and weird and uncomfortable. On my own, I managed to come to the conclusion that homosexuality is not a mental disorder that needs curing, but it didn't make me feel any more comfortable on the mornings that I would wake up and remember vivid gay dreams. When a straight friend of mine suggested that he was actually about 85% straight and sometimes found the male body sexually attractive, I was relieved to discover that this was something other people felt.
I figure I'm about 80% straight. I sometimes wish I'd experimented with women in college, but definitely no long-term relationships. I'm quite happy with my husband. The nice thing, though, is that I've become comfortable enough with the idea that it's ok to think about women that I've even told my husband I sometimes think about them. He doesn't have a problem with this, but assures me he's 100% straight himself.
I can totally buy what you're saying that there is no useful definition of the word in which I am bisexual and I wouldn't identify as one anyway, but there is a lot to be said for "pointing out people's hypocrisies" or, more importantly, normalizing the whole idea of same sex attraction so that people don't spend their lives scared to death that they might be gay.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I would think "Nah, that's within the normal range of heterosexuality" would be more comforting for a scared and confused het than "HA HA! See, you're bi too!"
On the other hand, I wonder how many people have figured out what would make them the happiest? For most people, it's just too easy to go with the default.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
The only thing that can cause me to sympathize with a homosexual is IF they cannot help what they are. If a gay person is only attracted to members of the same sex, I can see how they might choose that, just as pedophiles can't help but be attracted to children. Bisexuals in my opinion are neither gay or straight but simply sexually perverse. An interesting study on bisexuals would be to see how many would be interested in beastiality. I bet they would be more likely to engage in that activity than any other group. Simply over sexed.
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: The only thing that can cause me to sympathize with a homosexual is IF they cannot help what they are. If a gay person is only attracted to members of the same sex, I can see how they might choose that, just as pedophiles can't help but be attracted to children. Bisexuals in my opinion are neither gay or straight but simply sexually perverse. An interesting study on bisexuals would be to see how many would be interested in beastiality. I bet they would be more likely to engage in that activity than any other group. Simply over sexed.
That is a remarkably insulting and bigoted statement. Seriously I am actually shocked and I don't shock easily.
Posted by littlepetra (Member # 12042) on :
Wow...I was afraid to read on after the first four posts...Thanks for defending me EL!
Yoyo: I'll post up the results after my paper is written, if you want to see them.
Bluewizard: As for the survey, I apologize if it seems like I'm prying for a certain answer. I'm required to have no less than ten questions.
the question I'm using for my paper has been tweaked a little bit. At the moment, since the majority of those who took the test said bisexuality is different than homosexuality, and results to the last question about society is significantly more divided, the question now is why society accepts female bisexuality more than male bisexaulity.
Thanks for taking the survey, I appreciate it.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
petra: I didn't take your test. Too many questions didn't have my answer.
Dallas: Ignore the troll.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Pixiest: what is the usefulness you're talking about? I'm curious to know what is important about a definition of bisexuality that excludes people with only a few same sex fantasies or experiences.
(It's probably useful to distinguish between people who are seeking out titillation in any form they can get it out of desperation or compulsion and those who have a more 'healthy' attraction, but I'm not sure that's the distinction you are making.)
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
scifi: It's not a useful definition in that it's not descriptive.
A monosexual with a passing fancy for their non-preferred sex is nothing like someone who can easily fall in love/lust with either sex.
(edit: typo)
[ May 03, 2009, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: The Pixiest ]
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I am completely convinced of bisexuality if for not other reason than that I have a friend (female) who is in a long term relationship with a man and a woman. Other mutual friends and I have had conversations discussing the inevitability of jealousy and trouble a-brewing, but so far they are more stable than many of the two-person relationships I've witnessed. They are even planning on having a baby, and would be married if it weren't for the polygamy and SSM laws.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: scifi: It's not a useful definition in that it's not descriptive.
A monosexual with a passing fancy for their non-preferred sex is nothing like someone who can easily fall in love/lust with either sex.
I can't believe no one has mentioned Chasing Amy yet.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: The only thing that can cause me to sympathize with a homosexual is IF they cannot help what they are. If a gay person is only attracted to members of the same sex, I can see how they might choose that, just as pedophiles can't help but be attracted to children. Bisexuals in my opinion are neither gay or straight but simply sexually perverse. An interesting study on bisexuals would be to see how many would be interested in beastiality. I bet they would be more likely to engage in that activity than any other group. Simply over sexed.
And even terminal stupidity couldn't make me sympathize with you. Go figure.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
SPOILERS FOR CHASING AMY . . . . .
Lisa: One of the things that bugged me about that movie was that Alyssa was clearly bisexual, yet she fell into the false dichotomy so frequently thrust upon us from both sides of the fence that we have to choose.
No where in the entire movie was the term "bisexual" used, despite the fact that Alyssa Liked Men, then Liked Women, then Liked Holden and when that fell apart, Liked women again.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Notice how the places with a lot of les/bi/gay people are not the places where the STDs are.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
And yet... what should a person do who runs into a single exception in her whole life? It's not like Alissa was equally attracted to men and to women. Her attraction to Holden was clearly a major exception in her life. While she was with him, I think it would have been inappropriate to have called herself a lesbian, but once they broke up and she was back to her usual situation, I think the term would have been appropriate again.
Otherwise, we'd have to say that a Kinsey 5.9 is bisexual, and I don't think that's a reasonable way to use the term. I mean, I thought Marcus in B5 was incredibly hot. Does that mean I'm bi?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Lisa: No, it's made clear that Alyssa had been attracted to guys earlier in her life. (Finger Cuffs.) Holden was not an exception, just a life long trend of her being attracted to both sexes. Even though she resisted her opposite sex attraction due to what her friends might say (As exemplified in the "Swilling Merlot" scene.)
If Holden had been like Marcus, then no, she wouldn't be bisexual.
A had a friend one time who was perfectly straight except she was romantically attached to her female roommate. She described herself as "Straight with Robin Tendencies."
Likewise, if Holden had been the only stain on her gold star, she still could have described herself as lesbian. (such things are not uncommon in the lesbian/bisexual community out here... at least, not 10+ years ago when I was a member.)
Posted by ...Arson (Member # 12052) on :
There's clearly a difference between being specifically attracted to the opposite or same sex, and being attracted to everyone. I think people who claim to be bisexual are just more 'sexual' in general, and find comfort in sex rather than look for stability and relationships specifically.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by ...Arson: There's clearly a difference between being specifically attracted to the opposite or same sex, and being attracted to everyone. I think people who claim to be bisexual are just more 'sexual' in general, and find comfort in sex rather than look for stability and relationships specifically.
Based on??? Because I've never known any oversexed straight or gay people.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
quote:Originally posted by ...Arson: There's clearly a difference between being specifically attracted to the opposite or same sex, and being attracted to everyone. I think people who claim to be bisexual are just more 'sexual' in general, and find comfort in sex rather than look for stability and relationships specifically.
There are plenty of us who are monogamously married.
Could you link us some studies?
btw, bisexuals are not attracted to *everyone*. We have the potential to be attracted to either sex. There's a huge difference.
How many out bisexuals do you know?
Posted by ...Arson (Member # 12052) on :
'Everyone' was pretty general, sorry.
I only know a few though, still, you'd be very hard pressed to find someone openly bisexual but very sexually reserved, lol.
I think Bisexuality is more of a warming ground to open homosexuality though, for most people anyways. Alot of girls tend to claim bisexuality for attention. I'm sure that has something to do with the double standard, but either way it's a very gray area.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I wouldn't be hard pressed at all. I'm openly bisexual and pretty damn prudish.
Bisexuality is not a phase. True, some gay people try to pass themselves off as a bi before they accept who they are, but if someone has been out for a while and is still bisexual, they're probably really bi.
Hetgirls who pretend to be bi to titillate hetboys aren't bisexual. They're just maximizing their advantage to attract boys.
Posted by Anthonie (Member # 884) on :
If anyone is interested, here is the Wiki link about the Kinsey Scale, which is considered a ground breaker on looking at sexual orientation as a continuum.
Next, the Klein Sexual Orientation Grid expands on the Kinsey scale. A person enters his/her personally perceived Kinsey score (0 to 6 as explained earlier in the thread) for each of several categories of attraction.
Finally, here is an "orientation test" someone made in an attempt to merge the ideas of the above tests into a more casual feel. For anyone who likes those tests that reveal you as a "red" or "blue" person etc, this test can help you discover the true color of your sexuality! **NOT scholarly, but maybe fun.**
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by ...Arson: I think Bisexuality is more of a warming ground to open homosexuality though, for most people anyways.
Most of this is probably just the result about confused young kids who are going through phases where they struggle with their sexuality.
They have to deal with a lot of issues that heterosexuals really do not!
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by ...Arson: I think Bisexuality is more of a warming ground to open homosexuality though, for most people anyways.
According to George Carlin, mother's milk leads to heroin.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anthonie: Finally, here is an "orientation test" someone made in an attempt to merge the ideas of the above tests into a more casual feel. For anyone who likes those tests that reveal you as a "red" or "blue" person etc, this test can help you discover the true color of your sexuality! **NOT scholarly, but maybe fun.**
Awesome, I could moonlight as a ruler.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Hetgirls who pretend to be bi to titillate hetboys aren't bisexual. They're just maximizing their advantage to attract boys.
See I've never understood the "hotness" of a girl making out with another girl even with the suggestion they would both join me in the sack. I mean I don't blame girls for liking girls because frankly I love girls, but I'm just not super cool with my wife saying, "I'd like to bring another girl into the bedroom, you can watch it's cool!"
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
In the words of Paul Reiser (this may be the first and only time I ever quote him): "It's girls, it's [sometimes] naked...what's not to like?"
BTW, I think a lot of guys who get turned on by girl/girl stuff would still not be super cool with their S.O. doing it. (A lot of them would, but plenty wouldn't.)
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
My husband claims that girl on girl is hot (for fantasy) because you get the whole hot girls and action without having to include a man in the scene. But if you have a real girl there and willing, well, then you are the guy and that is all good. So, fantasy lesbians good, real life lesbians bad.
Posted by NobleHunter (Member # 12043) on :
Or, if one pretty girl is good, two pretty girls is better. I've heard women liking the idea of gay men together for the same reason.
And I realize that I've just made an assumption of attractiveness in homo-erotic media. That if gays and lesbians are going at it, they will automatically be prettier than a straight couple. Sadly, it isn't always the case.
Posted by lolcats (Member # 12060) on :
I think all people have the potential to be bisexual. It's why women like to look at other women's bodies, in different outfits, bikinis, etc. It's aesthetic mostly, but it wouldn't be such a stretch for most of us (those who don't have some moral/religious reserve against it) to be sexually attracted to hot women too. At least a little.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)