At E3, Microsoft has unveiled "Natal", a method to control video games by using a smart camera of sorts. From the video, it seems to capture large "jump around" motions very well. It can see your whole body for soccer style games, including legs, and it can recognize multiple players by their faces.
But that's not really what makes the Wii remote so great. Everyone talks about the running / jumping around. But what's REALLY revolutionary is the ability to use both hands seperately (and not have them stuck together at the same angle for hours on end) and to recognize subtle movements.
Playing Zelda or Mario Galaxy on the Wii, for example, I don't get wrist fatigue. My hands can lay naturally in my lap, at my sides, in front of me. The controller recognizes extremely subtle motions, giving me the ability to use slight natural movements to control my game. It's the feng shui of controllers, the precise zen of it, that makes them so good.
Metroid Prime 3, for examples, shows how truly sensitive the controller is. Not only can I control XYZ axis's, I can control those three axis's AND shoot independently (ie, shoot at different places around the screen independently of the perspective "center"). This enables a whole new level of control.
But with Microsoft's new toy, we can "jump around", but it certainly doesn't look precise. And no room for improvements --- they're already sending out development tools. It'll be another Eyetoy garbage peripheral. Too bad, integrated WITH a Wii remote, something like this would be fantastic.
Hopefully Sony's keynote at E-3 will be a little better. They're working on motion control too. If I had a PS3 with a Wii remote, I would be in video game heaven. The only thing the Wii lacks is technical horsepower.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
From what I've read, people who have tried it went in believing, much like you said, that it couldn't possibly detect subtle motions and ended up losing every game they played because they over corrected. Taking it with a grain of salt of course, from the sound of things they specifically wanted to avoid the uselessness of the Eyetoy by making something that could detect all sorts of movement, and from what I read of the development process, that's pretty much what they did.
I'm not a huge gamer anymore, but if the early reviews out on a product that's not even done yet are even close to right, it's a lot better than you're giving it credit for.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
But it can't see subtle hand motions under a blanket, or from the side of a couch, or with my hands in my laps, at my sides, etc.
Is it possible for it to read a tiny finger twitch? Look at the video --- it has the presenter spinning around and bouncing side-to-side a bunch of times with erroneous readings.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Presumably that's what something like, y'know, the controller is for. Let's face it: the Wiimote isn't really designed for subtle hand movements, either. If that were its design remit, they could have stuck with the gamepad.
[ June 02, 2009, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
<sarcasm>Gosh, you know what? Controllers are great. So we really shouldn't be spending any effort commercializing new ways of interacting with computers, coz they'll have all kinds of problems, you know?</sarcasm>
Controllers will still exist for a very long time. They're very good at what they do - they just don't do embodied interaction very well. (Kudos to the Wiimote for coming pretty close, though.)
Without time travel it'll be hard to see how this all turns out for Microsoft in the end, but as an HCI researcher I applaud the effort and drive to bring something like this to the public so quickly. Say whatever you want about Microsoft's marketing strategies and business practices; their research is game-changing and world class.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
i forgets what they're card but theres a infrared helmet atachment for use with Deltaforce games that I find nifty as it detects subtle turns of your head and does the equivilent in game for a more realistic feel for going/looking around corners.
I still want VR pods that detect my thoughts.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Natal isn't meant as a replacement for a controller.
The wiimote is a piece of garbage and was poorly thought out. They are selling an add-on years after its release to make it do what it was meant to since the beginning.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Actually, the WiiMote was quite well thought out, it just had engineering constraints (like all engineering projects have) that required a compromise in functionality.
-Bok
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Its too gimmicky and 90% of wii games are either better with a gamecube controller or a computer.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Its too gimmicky and 90% of wii games are either better with a gamecube controller or a computer.
Oh really Blayne? Do you own one? Just off the top of my head, Legend of Zelda, Mario Galaxy, and Warioware would have been really dumb without wiimote functionality.
If nothing else the wiimote cracked open a door that I am certain designers will not be closing ever.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I thought that the execution of the control scheme for Legend of Zelda was pretty poor. The thing that really bugged me was that different sword strokes were all accomplished with the same wiimote movement, accompanied by different combinations of button pushing. What a lost opportunity! Why not have the wiimote essentially function as the hilt of the sword, and have different strokes be executed by moving the wiimote in different ways?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: I thought that the execution of the control scheme for Legend of Zelda was pretty poor. The thing that really bugged me was that different sword strokes were all accomplished with the same wiimote movement, accompanied by different combinations of button pushing. What a lost opportunity! Why not have the wiimote essentially function as the hilt of the sword, and have different strokes be executed by moving the wiimote in different ways?
A missed opportunity is not the same thing as taking a step backwards. While I see what you are saying, and I do believe we will probably see that soon, Twilight Princess was not developed from the ground up as a Wii game. It was a gamecube game that was quickly ported to the Wii. I still felt the hookshot, and the bow were more fun with a wiimote than with a gamecube controller. Warioware completely relied on the wiimote, you could not play it with a gamecube controller. I had a fantastic time laughing my head off while playing it. I think Sotendosoft (horrible juxtaposition) will definitely move in the wiimote direction from now on. Controllers aren't done by a long shot, but I think the freedom wiimote like devices provide is essential in the market.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Sure. I didn't say anything about a step backward. I think that control schemes like the wiimote and Microsoft's Natal will be pretty important, and I'm glad to see them arrive. I can't wait to try out the Natal and see what it's like.
I was just really disappointed by the control scheme in the Zelda game. There was no technical reason why they couldn't have made the swordplay intuitive, and the fact that they didn't killed my enthusiasm for the game.
[Edited to add: I would love to see some kind of assassin game come out for the wii where the nunchuck and the wiimote serve as the handles for a garrote.]
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
Try swinging a sword for six hours. That's missing the point.
Everybody sees the whole "get up and move" aspect of the controller. In the end, that isn't the point. When you can effectively eliminate button mashing for different natural motions (and be able to button mash at the same time), you're able to realistically provide more feedback to the game and accomplish much more sophisticated motion and control than you would with a conventional controller.
The wii remote's perfection isn't as the sword, it's as a controller that only requires a twitch to CONTROL the sword as I perform multiple other button presses. It essentially allows me to perform an extra action at the same time. And it's much easier for non-gamers to learn than multiple button pushes.
My original point, is that Natal is BETTER for "jump around and move" motions. Of course the Wii remote sucks for that (maybe that'll change with Wii Motion Plus). But they missed the point of what makes the Wii remote great. It isn't jumping around, that's just the hype.
Play a few hours of Metroid Prime III or Zelda. Maybe boom blox. It's the precision of the twitch that's the real innovation.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:[Edited to add: I would love to see some kind of assassin game come out for the wii where the nunchuck and the wiimote serve as the handles for a garrote.]
I'm a little bit creeped out by the idea of ever-more-realistic ways to commit pretend homicide. What you've described here is along the same lines as gun-shaped controllers, in one way, but it's also a much more intimate and feral act than firing a gun. I wonder about whether coupling the motions of such acts with increasingly realistic graphical portrayal starts to be too much like the real thing.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:[Edited to add: I would love to see some kind of assassin game come out for the wii where the nunchuck and the wiimote serve as the handles for a garrote.]
I'm a little bit creeped out by the idea of ever-more-realistic ways to commit pretend homicide. What you've described here is along the same lines as gun-shaped controllers, in one way, but it's also a much more intimate and feral act than firing a gun. I wonder about whether coupling the motions of such acts with increasingly realistic graphical portrayal starts to be too much like the real thing.
That already exists. In Godfather Blackhand Edition, you can use a garrote and have to mimic the actual motions, you swing a baseball bat to beat people to the curb, and you swing the remote / nunchuck as your fists to lay the smack down. The game even rewards you for sticking to these methods instead of just shooting guns.
It's fun. One of the better Wii games.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:But with Microsoft's new toy, we can "jump around", but it certainly doesn't look precise. And no room for improvements --- they're already sending out development tools.
Most of the magic is in software in the device and I would bet the dev kits are firmware-upgradable.
I've also heard that it's actually pretty precise from people that are directly involved in its development.
quote:Hopefully Sony's keynote at E-3 will be a little better. They're working on motion control too. If I had a PS3 with a Wii remote, I would be in video game heaven.
Theirs is just a high-precision, limited-area Natal. It would be very easy for MS to produce a "wand" (they recently patented one) that would produce the same effect or better with the Natal sensor array.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
The Wii needs a Natal. Or Microsoft needs a wand. Either one would be perfection.
Nevermind, Sony with a wand and Natal would be perfection (Blu-Ray). But Sony's version with the eye-toy doesn't look nearly as powerful as Natal.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Also, the MS guys are very open to going with what works. If it turns out that the best experience requires wands/props/buttons, then they have no problem providing them. There isn't any philosophical necessity that all interactions be controllerless.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Its too gimmicky and 90% of wii games are either better with a gamecube controller or a computer.
Oh really Blayne? Do you own one? Just off the top of my head, Legend of Zelda, Mario Galaxy, and Warioware would have been really dumb without wiimote functionality.
If nothing else the wiimote cracked open a door that I am certain designers will not be closing ever.
I don't but I am perfectly capable trying out 99% of games in my local video store.
Posted by Xann. (Member # 11482) on :
I think what Sony presented was really what I was hoping the wii could be. I never use the wii mote when playing, other than to get to the game. Once they release.... I think it was motion-sensor-thingy or something or other for the playstation I won't be going back to the wii for a while.
I had fun with the wii, but in the end it wasn't what I hopped it would be. It was more of a gimmick than a real way to play games. I am hoping that sony gets by that, and that microsoft also tries to get past the Nick Arcade idea.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
It just doesn't work. Flailing around and hoping it will pick up the right action is not my idea of control.