Link. God, this is depressing.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Until I see an unedited version, I'm not really prepared to label it anything. Looks bad, though.
Anyway, it's not really an argument against democracy. If the video is actually close to accurate, it's an argument against dumb people.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Can you summarize I couldn't take her well intentioned prattle for much longer then a minute.
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
In all seriousness, that's the best argument against democracy you've ever seen? You've posted a link to a video of a person who appears to me to have obvious mental problems and possible borderline retardation rambling incoherently at a City Council meeting. Presumably, it is the very remarkableness of her stupidity that prompted the video to be posted in the first place. Probably as a joke. And it makes me more sad than anything. It's honestly a very depressing video, but it has nothing to do with democracy. In every culture and nation in the world, there are people who suffer from mental illnesses. We can't control that. But in a free society, we allow such people to co-exist with us. We can afford to be patient, and polite -- even to people we consider to be 'less than' ourselves.
Surely you can come up with a better argument against democracy than that.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
TL, I seriously doubt she's suffering from any mental illnesses or has borderline retardation. She's just really dumb, and probably nervous about speaking, and potentially drug addled while she's speaking as well.
That said, i noticed she was a Bush supporter...
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
Mental retardation is (this will sound insensitive) a condition of being "really dumb". You might as well have said "She's not mentally ill, she's just really crazy."
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
Her mental illness is called "being from California." Sounds like a typical brainless valley girl to me.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:Anyway, it's not really an argument against democracy. If the video is actually close to accurate, it's an argument against dumb people.
Isn't that the same thing?
The biggest problem with a true democracy is an overabundance of dumb people.
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
quote:Her mental illness is called "being from California." Sounds like a typical brainless valley girl to me.
Where did they find you?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow:
quote:Anyway, it's not really an argument against democracy. If the video is actually close to accurate, it's an argument against dumb people.
Isn't that the same thing?
The biggest problem with a true democracy is an overabundance of dumb people.
I'd say it's more an argument against a non-aggressive approach to education on a mass scale.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Not really, FlyingCow. An overabundance of dumb people is problematic in any system of government. The effects are different if it's a totalitarian regime is all, but for example an overabundance of dumb people is a problem there because it permits greater abuses and more flagrant tyranny than would otherwise be possible.
Technically it's an argument against democracy...it's just that it's also an argument against every other form of government too, really. What's the point of making an argument that's against something but not for anything in favor of it?
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I, too, am frequently disheartened my the foolishness - and often the heartlessness - of the electorate. I would be even more dismayed by trying to determine who is smart enough or good enough to be considered fully human enough to have a say in how they are governed.
Posted by paigereader (Member # 2274) on :
Technically, if you had an overabundance of dumb people, they wouldn't say anything.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
depends on what flavor of dumb they are, doesn't it? I know plenty of really stupid people who are vocal about things they know nothing about.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
We don't have a democracy in this country; we have a republic. This video partly demonstrates why, but it has less to do with IQ points and more to do with simple information. The masses are not informed enough to make good judgment calls on many issues. (Many of our representatives seemed uninformed or misinformed as well, but that's another issue.)
The problem with arguments *against* representative democracies is that they usually fail to come up with anything better. There are weaknesses with every form of government, but until you can come up with one that has fewer weaknesses than the one in which we live I will simply do my best to overcome the weaknesses in our own system rather than rail against it.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
So we're left with:
"The biggest argument against democracy is a five minute discussion with the average voter" and "Democracy is the worst system of government, except for all the others that have been tried."
Go Churchill.
But yes, an overabundance of dumb people is a problem everywhere, methinks. Democracy (and our democratic republic) just strives for more empowered dumb people.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
Fortunately in America we have a represenatative republic. When idiots like her become the majority, hopefully the electoral college will choose correctly. What scares me is she is a product of the government education system.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: depends on what flavor of dumb they are, doesn't it?
She means, the original and literal meaning of "dumb". That is, unable to speak.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
It is an interesting symptom which relates to my increasing belief that what democracy is really good for is not giving people "a say" but for solving the succession problem which is problematic for so many other types of government.
Or put another, less provocative way, the most beautiful thing about democracy is when one ruling group peacefully completes a transfer to a new group with new ideas and new ways of doing things*, temporarily cleaning out the corruption.
* assuming they actually do new things
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Fortunately in America we have a represenatative republic. When idiots like her become the majority, hopefully the electoral college will choose correctly. What scares me is she is a product of the government education system.
Do you even know where she went to school? For all you know she was home schooled by ignoramuses.
I'm not trying to take a jab at those who home school, I do believe it can be a viable option for educating ones' children.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Something else to consider... this is Santa Cruz we're talking about.
It's like Concentrated California Crazy there.
Edited to add: But yeah, unrestricted democracy is crazy. That's why we limit our democratic republic with a constitution. (I just wish they'd follow it.)
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Fortunately in America we have a represenatative republic.
Cool. Want to know something neat? We're also a democracy.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I laughed until I cried.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
You do realize that in all other forms of government (other than a Theocracy where God does manage to select the right people, or a Meritocracy, where some unbiased way of determining merit is invented,) that um, less than intelligent person has a chance of being placed into a position of power and all of our collective wisdom would have no way of removing her.
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
I have two questions for the original poster.
First: Do you present this as an actual argument against Democracy?
Second: What is your honest proposal for an alternative?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Something else to consider... this is Santa Cruz we're talking about.
It's like Concentrated California Crazy there.
Sort of true. But anyway, there are crazy people everywhere. And they, like she, should get a voice.
Fortunately, voice =! final say.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Sometimes I think a democracy of idiots would be better than a democracy of selfish, borderline sociopaths.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: You do realize that in all other forms of government (other than a Theocracy where God does manage to select the right people, or a Meritocracy, where some unbiased way of determining merit is invented,) that um, less than intelligent person has a chance of being placed into a position of power and all of our collective wisdom would have no way of removing her.
We successfully ousted Palin from Alaska it seems Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
She ousted herself, which in its own way does seem heartening.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: or a Meritocracy, where some unbiased way of determining merit is invented
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Until I see an unedited version, I'm not really prepared to label it anything. Looks bad, though.
Anyway, it's not really an argument against democracy. If the video is actually close to accurate, it's an argument against dumb people.
Yeah, this seems to echo my thoughts exactly. I second this and whatever else Rakeesh has said in this thread.
On Samp's city council link -
What the hell was up with the lady saying "next!" in the ear of that guy who had all that stuff he wanted to say, while the crazy chick is allowed to rant on for minutes.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
They could have been different city councils, different times. City councils don't have endless time and sometimes are rather pressed for it but if you're there at the right time or have budgeted some time or your council is especially timid you can rant about the statist goblins or UFO's or play public affairs improv or whatever for a good long time.
people like this getting to come up and ramble like nutcases are a mentally taxing but essentially necessary part of local governance. "The public have to be allowed a voice" is the most generic way of explaining why it's a good thing overall.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: Her mental illness is called "being from California." Sounds like a typical brainless valley girl to me.
That's not funny. In fact it's highly insulting.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
Hmm. So I learned that the East Coast believes in slavery and that vegetables grow on trees. And land is free. So all in all, that was pretty educational.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:What the hell was up with the lady saying "next!" in the ear of that guy who had all that stuff he wanted to say, while the crazy chick is allowed to rant on for minutes.
it seemed to me that lady saying "next" was actually WITH that guy. Since when the person finally called "time" at the end it was a different person, not visible on camera. maybe they worked out how long he could spend on each number and just tried to fit them all in?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:But yes, an overabundance of dumb people is a problem everywhere, methinks. Democracy (and our democratic republic) just strives for more empowered dumb people.
To me, though, it's just six one way and half a dozen the other.
A greater number of empowered dumb people in a representative government equals a dumber government more prone to abuses of all sorts. A greater number of unempowered dumb people in a non-representative government equals a government less likely to be stopped from abusing its people...and I generally believe that the road to really bad times is a helluva lot shorter between non-representative governments and representative governments. To be fair, though, the road to really good times can be shorter too, just not often traveled.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: That's not funny. In fact it's highly insulting.
It was kind of funny and not that insulting. I'm a Californian.
edit: I'm a Californianator. 2nd edit: note, that's NOT Californicator.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think "this is an argument against democracy" is code for "Everybody check out the stupid person! Hahahahahahaha!! *points and laughs*"
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think Sarah Palin's goodbye speech today was a better argument against Democracy than this.
Better source of comedy too. It was like some sort of gubernatorial Mad Libs.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: Her mental illness is called "being from California." Sounds like a typical brainless valley girl to me.
That's not funny. In fact it's highly insulting.
"Vegetable trees" are insulting to my intelligence.
I dunno, I realize stupidity is a universal disease, but I've had a special dislike of California ever since I first visited. There seems to be a unique blend of arrogance and ignorance I've been unable to find anywhere else - outside of Junior High Schools, maybe.
Most TV shows set there, and pretty much every Californian I've had the misfortune of meeting has done nothing but instill a sense of selfishness and vapidity.
That being said, I'm sure there are plenty wonderful people from California. I've just never met any.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I think "this is an argument against democracy" is code for "Everybody check out the stupid person! Hahahahahahaha!! *points and laughs*"
This is what I would assume also. I think given Lisa's history of engagement in political threads most people are jumping to a certain conclusion about the thread title. I'm willing give the benefit of the doubt and assume she was joking.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath:
That being said, I'm sure there are plenty wonderful people from California. I've just never met any.
I'm sure you have no problem meeting nice people with that attitude.
In the meantime, how about you lay off our state. Nobody here insulted your state or its people- that kind of talk is really not welcome.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: It was kind of funny and not that insulting. I'm a Californian.
If you had said it, I would look on it a little differently. An outsider doesn't get the benefit of the doubt; especially one who is plainly ignorant of what the state is really like, ie: television and LA valley =! California.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: That being said, I'm sure there are plenty wonderful people from California. I've just never met any.
With that attitude, I wonder why?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I would have labeled it as a good evidence of the failure of the US educational system, unless the woman is really mentally ill. How could any sane person make it to adulthood in the US believing there was still slavery on the east coast?
[ July 28, 2009, 05:25 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
OK.
I'm not certain to what extent folks are just shootin' the sh@# when they say things like 'view this as evidence of...' but the fact is, one stupid lady speaking in public isn't good evidence of anything except that there's one stupid lady speaking in public, without any kind of facts to establish context for us. In fact, it's not actually really good evidence that she's stupid! Maybe she wanged her head really good falling in the shower that morning, or got in a car accident. Maybe she's terrified of public speaking and that renders her cognitive functions, shall we say, diminished.
But her little edited youtube video certainly isn't good evidence of a failure of our public education system, unless that system is to be considered a failure if so much as one stupid person emits from it.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Rakeesh, you will note that I did say "unless this person is really mentally ill". And I do think that even one sane person who is not severely cognatively disabled making to adult without learning that slavery is illegal everywhere in the US constitutes a level of failure on the part of our educational system.
Also, note that I did not say "public education system" because I did not intend the comment to be about the public schools but rather about all the systems we have as a society (family, schools, chuch, media, etc) for teaching our children.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Even if she's not actually mentally ill somehow, it's still not 'good evidence' of the failure of the US educational system, Rabbit.
As for her comments about slavery, well...has anyone actually seen the unedited video of her little public speaking Hindenberg?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Certainly it is good evidence that our educational system failed this woman. Absent any serious mental illness or deficiency, every child in our society should be taught that slavery is illegal everywhere in the US. I think thats a pretty basic standard. I'm not requiring every child to be articulate or to be able to give a decent public testimony, but every single mentally capable child should learn slavery is illegal in the US.
No I haven't seen the unedited video, but the woman says "On the east coast they have slaves and they believe in slavery." I find it difficult to imagine anything that might have preceded this which would change meaning enough to indicate this woman doesn't believe they have slaves on the east coast. Absent some serious mental illness or deficiency, society has clearly failed this woman.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Certainly it is good evidence that our educational system failed this woman.
That's quite a different thing from saying '...of the failure of the US educational system' though, Rabbit. Unless we're going to say that one sick person dying is good evidence of the failure of modern medicine, I don't see how it's reasonable to say one (possibly) stupid person can be taken, absent any context, as good evidence of the failure of our US educational system.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
I don't think a rant captured on Youtube can be considered to demonstrate much of anything by itself. We don't know the context of her life at all. We certainly don't know if this one individual reflects anything broader about the population of the country.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Maybe it's just an indictment of the policy established in the 70s of releasing all the long-term residents of mental health institutions to the world at large.
Or maybe this is a fast and testimony meeting and the woman's brain doesn't perform well when she's fasting. I sometimes wonder if the maunderers are more cogent on days when they haven't been fasting.
Maybe she's doing an open mic night in an avant garde poetry festival.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think posting it is another instance of the continual online freak show.
This thread is good evidence that there is an endless audience for shadenfruedy mockery.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:Certainly it is good evidence that our educational system failed this woman.
That's quite a different thing from saying '...of the failure of the US educational system' though, Rabbit. Unless we're going to say that one sick person dying is good evidence of the failure of modern medicine, I don't see how it's reasonable to say one (possibly) stupid person can be taken, absent any context, as good evidence of the failure of our US educational system.
Fine, I only meant 'a failure' of the system. You are placing more emphasis on the definite article that I intended. It is certainly not evidence of broad scale failure of the educational system, it is only a specific instance of failure and only that presuming that this woman is not seriously mentally deficient or ill.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I think posting it is another instance of the continual online freak show.
This thread is good evidence that there is an endless audience for shadenfruedy mockery.
Amen!! I really wonder what point Lisa was trying to make in posting it. She generally isn't the type who revels in mocking stupid people nor is she generally stupid enough herself to believe that one nut rambling in a public hearing is a strong argument against democracy.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
"Schadenfreude" is now the word of the day.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I would have labeled it as a good evidence of the failure of the US educational system, unless the woman is really mentally ill. How could any sane person make it to adulthood in the US believing there was still slavery on the east coast?
Something like this?
quote:Elsa's daughter, who was rescued in New York, is expected to be a key witness against members of the Carreto family. Their trial for sex trafficking is expected to begin this spring.
There are an estimated 4,600 women currently held in the United States as sex slaves.
(Thats my only guess for what kind of thing a person might be thinking about when making such a statement. Not that I'm saying people necessarily "believe" in it as a whole, but more as insight into the possible workings of her mind)
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: In the meantime, how about you lay off our state. Nobody here insulted your state or its people- that kind of talk is really not welcome.
People in this thread are making sweeping generalizations about the U.S, the educational system, or even the entire idea of democracy - but it's a bad thing when I narrow it down to a specific state? Actually, I should narrow it to the Bay Area of California, I'm sure northern Californians don't contribute much to this.
As for my state, I was born and raised in Minnesota! there's usually not a week goes by that someone doesn't crack a joke about my state or my accent. I just laugh it off, because it's funny, ya know?
Anyway, I figure if people can make fun of bumbling country boys like me who speak like we're straight out of Norway, I can make fun of ignorant valley girls. I am sorry if I offended you - I was aiming to make a wise crack based on my observations, not insult board members. But can you admit there's some truth to what I've said about the culture out there?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:As for my state, I was born and raised in Minnesota! there's usually not a week goes by that someone doesn't crack a joke about my state or my accent.
Don't you mean Minne-soh-ta?
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: People in this thread are making sweeping generalizations about the U.S, the educational system, or even the entire idea of democracy - but it's a bad thing when I narrow it down to a specific state? Actually, I should narrow it to the Bay Area of California, I'm sure northern Californians don't contribute much to this.
The Bay Area IS part of Northern California - it also happens to be the center of most technological innovation in the the US (and, really, the world). Also, valley girls are a SoCal concept.
If you're going to insult a few million people, at least make sure you're insulting the right ones.
P.S. There go all my beliefs about 'Minnesota nice." Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath:
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: In the meantime, how about you lay off our state. Nobody here insulted your state or its people- that kind of talk is really not welcome.
People in this thread are making sweeping generalizations about the U.S, the educational system, or even the entire idea of democracy - but it's a bad thing when I narrow it down to a specific state? Actually, I should narrow it to the Bay Area of California, I'm sure northern Californians don't contribute much to this.
Are you aware of where the Bay Area is located, or did you simply mistype... or did I misunderstand some attempt at irony here? The Bay Area is the cultural nexus of Northern California. That being said, this particular person doesn't appear to be from the Bay Area, but from Santa Cruz, which is also part of Northern California, but to anyone in the know, is not part of the bay area.
quote: But can you admit there's some truth to what I've said about the culture out there?
No. You haven't said anything of substance about the culture. You do not understand it. I am in a position to criticize Northern Californian culture (and I do), but you are not.
Now to address what you did say, you were responding to a common stereotype largely concerning people who live in the more isolated and wealthy or socially liberal parts of Northern California, outside of the metropolitan areas, but not as rural as the valley or the far north- places like Santa Cruz, Marin County, Yolo County, Humbolt, etc. The stereotype is of air-headed upper middle class children of hippies and socialists who left the cities a generation ago, taking with them their love of psuedo-scientific naturalism and herbal medicines, but maintaining their upper middle class conservatism in most respects, other than cosmetic adoption of certain philosophies and ways of speaking. That general class of people does exist. It exists, in fact, all over the United States. It can be found in many such places- Boulder Colorado, Helena Montana, Vermont, ppstate New York, Hawaii, certain parts of Iowa, and Kansas. It is one echo of the peace and love generation that still exists all over the nation. Whether or not there are actually more of these kinds of people in California than in other places is debatable. Personally I don't see it- you don't meet a lot of these people if you're actually in the Bay Area, a part of the state known for liberalism, but also for pragmatism. Certainly, it is not a California-breed phenomenon. It gets that reputation, and paradoxically it is connected in the public imagination with surfing culture, which has little relation to it (surfing was not popularized first among the middle class), because California is the center of fictional media in the US, specifically of television and films. Thus, California knows California best, and Californians lampoon and display these types of people, representing them as Californian. It's not a surprise that California has become the home to legions of different fictional social niches which the nation as a whole believe exist in force, and are much more cartoonish than their actual real life counterparts.
And I mean, seriously dude, you were basing an observation of Californian culture ( northern Californian culture) on what you've seen on television, created somewhere else. Who's the ditz?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I would have labeled it as a good evidence of the failure of the US educational system, unless the woman is really mentally ill. How could any sane person make it to adulthood in the US believing there was still slavery on the east coast?
Honestly: she was probably just baked off her ass, if not experiencing some sort of terrible mega-stage-fright effect, if not both.
Couple it with her not exactly being the sharpest knife in the drawer aaaaand
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
No one has yet to suggest that it's a joke- but that would be too good to believe. Nobody is that good a performer.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I don't know; for the first thirty seconds I was convinced it was fake. There are a lot of dumb people out there, but I don't think I've ever met one that dumb/baked/nervous.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Strider:
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I think "this is an argument against democracy" is code for "Everybody check out the stupid person! Hahahahahahaha!! *points and laughs*"
This is what I would assume also. I think given Lisa's history of engagement in political threads most people are jumping to a certain conclusion about the thread title. I'm willing give the benefit of the doubt and assume she was joking.
Thank you.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I would have labeled it as a good evidence of the failure of the US educational system, unless the woman is really mentally ill. How could any sane person make it to adulthood in the US believing there was still slavery on the east coast?
Honestly: she was probably just baked off her ass, if not experiencing some sort of terrible mega-stage-fright effect, if not both.
Couple it with her not exactly being the sharpest knife in the drawer aaaaand
Honestly, the kind of slavery she was referring to is obviously (in context) the sweatshops in other countries. Nike, for example. That's not to say that she isn't a dipsy-doodle, but that particular criticism isn't valid.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: Actually, I should narrow it to the Bay Area of California, I'm sure northern Californians don't contribute much to this.
I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt before, but now you've made me angry
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