I was struck by this random thought: The Norwegian words for 'virtue' and 'vice' are respectively 'dyd' and 'last'. The latter is also used in the sense of 'cargo', as in "skipets last var epler" - "the ship's cargo was apples", but perhaps a more idiomatic translation would be 'burden'. (More randomness: My example sentence here is slightly bad Norwegian; I would more idiomatically say "skipet var lastet med epler", roughly "the ship was cargoed with apples". Anyway.) This seems to me to express a slightly different way of thinking about personal weaknesses; one can certainly say in English that, for example, drinking was a burden to such-and-such, but in Norwegian it's built into the word. Similarly, 'dyd' is presumably etymologically related to 'dåd', English 'deed' - in fact I would be extremely unsurprised to find the Norwegian 'y' and English 'ee' sounds joining together in Old Norse and Anglo-Saxon dialects. Again this seems like a slightly different way of looking at it, in that a virtue can be expressed in one's character, but a deed is by construction an action.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Yes, but in English a Vice is also a tool used to hold something in place, or to hold it back. There is a similarity between the idea of a Vice and a Burden in that both hold you back or stop you from moving.
Further Dyd is related to Deed but also to dad. Dyd=virtue. I think this correlates to Father (dad) always knows Best (virtue).
Or that being virtuous is being a "dud".
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: I was struck by this random thought: The Norwegian words for 'virtue' and 'vice' are respectively 'dyd' and 'last'. The latter is also used in the sense of 'cargo', as in "skipets last var epler" - "the ship's cargo was apples", but perhaps a more idiomatic translation would be 'burden'. (More randomness: My example sentence here is slightly bad Norwegian; I would more idiomatically say "skipet var lastet med epler", roughly "the ship was cargoed with apples". Anyway.) This seems to me to express a slightly different way of thinking about personal weaknesses; one can certainly say in English that, for example, drinking was a burden to such-and-such, but in Norwegian it's built into the word. Similarly, 'dyd' is presumably etymologically related to 'dåd', English 'deed' - in fact I would be extremely unsurprised to find the Norwegian 'y' and English 'ee' sounds joining together in Old Norse and Anglo-Saxon dialects. Again this seems like a slightly different way of looking at it, in that a virtue can be expressed in one's character, but a deed is by construction an action.
So if you say that someone came in "dead last", it would sound weird to a native Norwegian speaker?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: Yes, but in English a Vice is also a tool used to hold something in place, or to hold it back.
Not really. That'd be a vise.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: So if you say that someone came in "dead last", it would sound weird to a native Norwegian speaker?
They're not pronounced the same; the Norwegian word has a short 'a', lass-t, quite different from the English la-ast. But apart from that, yes, most English idioms sound rather odd to the outsider.
In other news, Thou shalt not believe thou art anything can hold no candle for venom to the original du ska'kkje tro at du e' nokke hissed in a Bergen dialect.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Idioms are always difficult for people picking up a second (or third, or more) language. Anything that presumes a knowledge of the culture is problematic. For example, I have a great book that teaches elements of grammar in context of wriing exercises yet I could never use it with my English Language Learners because it's based on fairy tales - and fairy tales aren't the same from culture to culture.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
The connection between dyd and deed sounds plausible enough, but I have no idea how to research Norwegian etymologies.