I just finished up a collection of short stories in post apocalyptic settings and I was struck by something: where are the waterwheels?
it seems like in every story I've read, people's power is all about harvesting and conserving contemporary fuels, whereas I gotta figure, on the first things I'd do after I'd found stable shelter after an apocalypse would be to set up water power systems.
Can people think of stories I've missed for this?
It seems like sci-fi is maybe so focused on the shiny sciences and futuristic thinking that people forget that humans were running industry long before the current era.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Swiss Family Robinson? Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Part of the reason for that might be atmosphere. So many post-apocalyptic stories take place in barren, dry, and dusty environments. If it took place in a lush forest with a vigorous stream running a waterwheel it just wouldn't carry the same "Oh crap! Look what we did to ourselves!" feel.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
Also, many post apocalyptic stories are lacking in societal stability. So even if the technology is there, it might not be feasible to actually build and maintain the equipment in a lot of stories.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
To be fair, The Stand showed people trying to reestablish hydroelectric power before they even ran out of gasoline to run their generators.
(Anyway, it hadn't occurred to me before now that you could set up a waterwheel and with some gearing make it turn the turbine in one of those gas powered generators. So now that's my plan if I end up near a river after the apocalypse...thanks! I wonder how well animal fat will work as an industrial lubricant once the WD-40 runs out.)
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Anybody remember what people used in Waterworld? (Anybody want to remember what Waterworld was? )
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Well, there's stuff like The Chrysalids and The Road. There was also a series of novels set in post-apocalyptic America where people were back to using swords and bows and whatnot. I can't remember the name, though.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I think it would be wise to figure out how you will live without power at all. Or at best, very little power.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Anybody remember what people used in Waterworld? (Anybody want to remember what Waterworld was? )
I didn't watch the whole thing, but I got the idea they were mining petroleum from old tankers. For, like, a long freaking time.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Anyway, it hadn't occurred to me before now that you could set up a waterwheel and with some gearing make it turn the turbine in one of those gas powered generators.
You really couldn't, at least not without a lot of gearing. Lage waterwheels are good are producing low RPM, high torque, while gasoline generators are built for high RPM, low torque.
quote:Anybody remember what people used in Waterworld? (Anybody want to remember what Waterworld was?
The finding of an old tanker filled with petrol was a big plot point in the movie.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Water power is mentioned - it's not a major plot point by any means - in Stirling's Dies the Fire and The Protector's War.
quote:Anyway, it hadn't occurred to me before now that you could set up a waterwheel and with some gearing make it turn the turbine in one of those gas powered generators. So now that's my plan if I end up near a river after the apocalypse...thanks!
Although I'm not an engineer, this might be more difficult than it sounds; I think you'd have a strong impedance mismatch between the speed of the water and the speed at which the generator is designed to turn, possibly too strong to overcome by any practical amount of gearing - you would lose too much torque. There's a reason we use gas, and it's not because we're evil polluters, it's because the stuff is very dang powerful. It's really quite hard to substitute any other source of power where burning petroleum is the design source.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
You'll all see when I've got my little hydroelectric fort. It's gonna have a solar energy beam defense system too. Just need a few lenses, is all.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
scifi: I'll attack at night. =) That's the problem with solar.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I'll just trap it with mirrors until I need it.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Or you know, battaries, the egyptians made some rudimentary ones with clay and vinngar.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Interesting timing on this topic. I just started writing a post-apocalyptic short story today.
Although in this case it is set generations after the apocalypse, the people have returned to a more basic, agrarian culture.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:The finding of an old tanker filled with petrol was a big plot point in the movie.
...and how jet skis and airplanes can run on unrefined crude oil...
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Anybody remember what people used in Waterworld? (Anybody want to remember what Waterworld was? )
A combination of "the black stuff," which was apparently crude oil being used to power the exxon Valdez, and an even more absurd gyroscopic wind harvester that somehow powered a lead battery in Kevin Costner's boat, which for some reason he was then able to use to power the boat... which was a sailboat.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Don't forget they had some old man living on a tiny raft inside the tanker, who apparently did not need to eat or drink, and suffered no ill effects from being constantly surrounded by said oil.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I think I'm getting some insight into why I'm having difficulty remembering stuff from Waterworld.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: The finding of an old tanker filled with petrol was a big plot hole in the movie.
Fixed that for ya.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
Was that the weird move where people could breathe highly oxygenated water? Or was that something else?
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
That was The Abyss - which, interestingly, OSC wrote the novelization of.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Farnham's Freehold had waterwheels, and running toilets (sorta).
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: That was The Abyss - which, interestingly, OSC wrote the novelization of.
Apparently the novel actually provided some important characterizations for the movie.
Also the cool thing about the oxygenated water was that that can actually be breathed. Ed Harris didn't actually do it in the movie, but the demonstration with the rat I understand actually happened, which got the movie edited in the UK as it was deemed animal cruelty.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:Although I'm not an engineer, this might be more difficult than it sounds; I think you'd have a strong impedance mismatch between the speed of the water and the speed at which the generator is designed to turn, possibly too strong to overcome by any practical amount of gearing - you would lose too much torque.
Based on your reference to the speed of the water I assume you're talking about a paddle wheel, or flutter wheel. Also called an undershot water wheel. These are rarely used to convert water velocity to power, although they are sometimes used to convert power to water velocity. Think Mississipi steamboats.
But overshot water wheels have literally tons (or rather foot-tons) of torque, and can very easily be geared to match the RPM that a generator requires. In fact, it has been a dream of mine to build exactly this type of system, but unfortunately I don't have a conveniently placed stream with adequate head. A friend of mine does, but he rents his house, so... Oh well.
For some reason, the paddle wheel is the type of water wheel that most people remember, and I know I have seen a variety non-functional models tacked onto buildings for purely aesthetic purposes.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
I just finished volume 1 of Warren Ellis' graphic novel "FreakAngels". Its post-apocalyptic setting includes steam-powered helicopters, among other things.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I am reasonably convinced there are inherent power-to-weight limitations on steam engines (limiting yourself to iron/aluminium for construction and coal or oil for fuel, as is reasonable in a low-tech setting) which make powered flight impossible.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: But overshot water wheels have literally tons (or rather foot-tons) of torque, and can very easily be geared to match the RPM that a generator requires.
Ok, I sit corrected. Still, what's easy in an industrial society might not be so easy after the apocalypse. You'd be making gears out of low-quality iron, or whatever you could scavenge, and without access to power tools. (If you had power, of course, you wouldn't need to build a waterwheel to run your generator...)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I'd run my generator on gas before I ran out of gas.
Some of you people just wouldn't fit in with the Swiss family Robinson.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Ok, I sit corrected. Still, what's easy in an industrial society might not be so easy after the apocalypse. You'd be making gears out of low-quality iron, or whatever you could scavenge, and without access to power tools. (If you had power, of course, you wouldn't need to build a waterwheel to run your generator...)
Said helicopter is designed in the story by what amounts to a psychic genius-savant. I'm not saying it's exactly hard sci-fi.
ADD:...But, then again, it's probably closer than Waterworld.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: I'd run my generator on gas before I ran out of gas.
Some of you people just wouldn't fit in with the Swiss family Robinson.
Exactly, Crazy Prepared! We prepare for two things, the absolute worst case, and the not so bad case where we might have some lee way. In the latter we have a generator and some gas and maybe some solar panels or whatever or preferably an already working waterwheel and cottage, the worst case is if we dont have any of those things.
If I had the money and the time I will buy a remote cottage by a stream/river up north somewhere and start preparing but in the meantime use it for vacations and chilin.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:Still, what's easy in an industrial society might not be so easy after the apocalypse. You'd be making gears out of low-quality iron, or whatever you could scavenge, and without access to power tools.
You can make very effective gears out of wood with basic hand tools. The generator itself would be a much greater obstacle. Still, in a post apocalyptic world, you'd be using a scavenged generator, so you might as well be using a scavenged gearbox. They're all over, you know.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Yes, but hang on, we're talking about gears to change a slow rotation of maybe one or two RPM and enormous torque into several hundred RPM. I don't think wood is going to stand the strain, especially since you have to mate it to metal at some point. And a scavenged gearbox may or may not have the ratio you need, not to mention the difficulty in mating it to both the generator axle and the wheel axle.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
You seem to be thinking of a two gear system. You could put as many gears in there as you needed (accepting some loss of energy between each).
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
And you're building this huge Rube Goldberg system with hand tools, out of wood? I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying it's not the work of a day, or even a week. And that's not even counting the need to go out and shoot zombies occasionally.
Posted by Godric 2.0 (Member # 11443) on :
What would the water-wheel powered generator be powering? The internet will presumably be, if not gone, localized networks that you won't have access to. TV and radio won't be broadcasting. And once you run out of working light bulbs, you're back to candles anyway, right? Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Machine tools? Space heaters? Electric stoves? Microwave ovens! Computers are more than the internet. Water heater. (Notice that chopping wood is extremely labour-intensive and not very scalable.) And, of course, electricity offers all sorts of options for convincing the inevitable heretics that your own take on the causes of the apocalypse is the correct one, and they had better repent and be saved.
Edit: And anyway, radio isn't that complicated. Set up your own broadcasting station.
Posted by Godric 2.0 (Member # 11443) on :
Microwave ovens? I don't think frozen dinners will be in plentiful supply after the apocalypse.
I suppose space heaters and electric stoves make a little more sense. But all that back-breaking wood chopping for fires will make you strong and better able to defend yourself from the "zombies." Plus, all your food will taste great because food always tastes great after working so hard to prepare it.
I guess a freezer would be nice...
But I think I'd be much more inclined to work on a plumbing/running water system before power generation.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Tazers.
You can't have Zombie-scorching Tazers without the electricity.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Godric 2.0: Microwave ovens? I don't think frozen dinners will be in plentiful supply after the apocalypse.
*Slaps forehead* Duh, I left freezers out of my list! Cheap refrigeration is a vastly important technical advance; without it you'll be eating salted or dried stuff all winter.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Godric 2.0: Microwave ovens? I don't think frozen dinners will be in plentiful supply after the apocalypse.
Um . . . if you think the main type of meal that can be cooked in a microwave is pre-cooked and frozen, ur doin it rong.
Certainly a microwave can cook far more efficiently than many other options. And in many cases it tastes just as good.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by Godric 2.0: Microwave ovens? I don't think frozen dinners will be in plentiful supply after the apocalypse.
*Slaps forehead* Duh, I left freezers out of my list! Cheap refrigeration is a vastly important technical advance; without it you'll be eating salted or dried stuff all winter.
You are ignoring canned, which came long before refrigeration.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Yes, but hang on, we're talking about gears to change a slow rotation of maybe one or two RPM and enormous torque into several hundred RPM. I don't think wood is going to stand the strain, especially since you have to mate it to metal at some point. And a scavenged gearbox may or may not have the ratio you need, not to mention the difficulty in mating it to both the generator axle and the wheel axle.
Forget about the issue of gearing. Its a much more fundamental problem. Unless you are talking about a really tiny diesel generator, electric turbines are designed to generate megawatts of power and there is no way you could build a wooden water wheel with that kind of capacity. You'd do much better kludging together a hundred bicycle dynamos that using a large generator.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I believe we are talking aobut a really tiny diesel generator, the sort that you might use to light your house in an emergency or a cabin far off the grid.
Canning was invented a bit after the Napoleonic wars, which is not much before refrigeration, and is an industrial process; you wouldn't be doing canning as an individual struggling to survive the zombies. Perhaps you are referring to pickling, preserves, and such? Fair enough, but you can't do it to meat.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Thinking about it, if you wanted refrigeration it might be a more inherent idea to couple the water wheel directly to the refrigerator pump and ignore electricity altogether. I don't know where you'll get more working fluid if you run out, though.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Canning was invented a bit after the Napoleonic wars, which is not much before refrigeration, and is an industrial process
Huh? Oh, you mean putting things in metal cans.
Rabbit means home canning.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Canning was invented a bit after the Napoleonic wars, which is not much before refrigeration, and is an industrial process; you wouldn't be doing canning as an individual struggling to survive the zombies.
rivka's right. I was talking about home canning which, presuming not all the bottles and lids are destroyed in the apocalypse, is a pretty low tech process which I have done myself since childhood. (O.K. I didn't actually do it all by myself as a child, I served merely as forced labor in my parents annual canning rituals).
quote:Perhaps you are referring to pickling, preserves, and such? Fair enough, but you can't do it to meat.
Actually, meat has been preserved by various forms of curing and pickling for hundreds if not thousands of years. How can you call your self a Norwegian if you don't know about pickled Herring, Lutefisk, and smoked salmon?
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Actually, meat has been preserved by various forms of curing and pickling for hundreds if not thousands of years. How can you call your self a Norwegian if you don't know about pickled Herring, Lutefisk, and smoked salmon?
Not to mention smoking, though I suppose that could be considered a form of curing. And there is that infamous Ancient Roman rotten-fish recipe , though part of me can't help but wonder if that wasn't nearly as bad an idea as "hey, let's make dishes out of lead!"
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Fish is not meat. And lutefisk is not suitable for human consumption. Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Fish is not meat.
So? Are you suggesting that people have never smoked, cured or pickled anything else? I chose examples I thought would be more familiar to someone of scandanavian decent than pickled pork.
quote:And lutefisk is not suitable for human consumption.
Well I agree about Lutefisk, but then I'm not Norwegian. Your credibility as a scandinavian is slipping.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
You can use a pressure canner for meat. All you need is a fairly low-tech pressure cooker and heat.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:I believe we are talking aobut a really tiny diesel generator, the sort that you might use to light your house in an emergency or a cabin far off the grid.
Its still excessively complicated. If you have a small gas generator, it would be far simpler to build a small anaerobic digester to make fuel for the generator than to try to turn the turbine with a water wheel.
Turn the turbine mechanically is just a ridiculous idea from the get go since all you actually need to turn is the dynamo, and once the gasoline runs out small dynamos will be easily obtained from all the parked cars. I don't think it would be all that difficult to rig a waterwheel with a serious of pulleys that to run an automobile dynamo. We had first semester engineering students building wind turbines that could power an car dynamo. Its pretty simple technology.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet: You can use a pressure canner for meat. All you need is a fairly low-tech pressure cooker and heat.
Of course the most traditional way of preserving meat for the cold winter months has always been to store them as live animals and butcher as necessary. Meat isn't like fruits and vegetables that have to be harvested when they ripen and stored for later use. Plus, in much of the world "refrigeration" is cheap and plentiful and provided by nature during the winter months.
It used to be common for people to cut large blocks of ice out lakes in the winter and store them in underground lagers for the summer. It wouldn't work in the tropics, but then fresh fruits and vegetables can be grown year round in the tropics.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote: I don't think it would be all that difficult to rig a waterwheel with a serious of pulleys that to run an automobile dynamo.
When was the last time you heard anyone refer to an alternator as a dynamo?
quote: If you have a small gas generator, it would be far simpler to build a small anaerobic digester to make fuel for the generator than to try to turn the turbine with a water wheel.
Sure you could make fuel, but maintenance on the engine would require far more precision machining than a gearset would.
quote:And that's not even counting the need to go out and shoot zombies occasionally.
This is a much better argument.
quote:Cheap refrigeration is a vastly important technical advance; without it you'll be eating salted or dried stuff all winter.
Do brains need refrigeration?
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Oh, I missed this:
quote: a serious of pulleys
No, I don't think there's much point to serious pulleys. Not that there's much point to being serious, in this thread.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Goddamnit all to hell guys! You just gave me another idea for a webcomic project. Of the Farley Mowat variety.
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