This is topic John Scalzi's list of the ten most egregious design failures in Star Wars in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.
quote:Lightsabers Yes, I know, I want one too. But I tell you what: I want one with a hand guard. Otherwise every lightsaber battle would consist of sabers clashing and then their owners sliding as quickly as possible down the shaft to lop off their opponent's fingers. You say: Lightsabers can slice through anything but another lightsaber, so what are you going to make a hand guard out of? I say: Dude, if you have the technology to make a lightsaber, you have the technology to make a light hand guard.
This is the first time I think I have ever been compelled to say "You .. you just don't get it, do you. You don't get it."
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Actually there IS a lightsabre resistant metal used in vibroblades which are used for Jedi trainees that CAN hold off another light saber.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I mean let's start out with how lightsabers don't work that way. Let's just start there. Let's start with how when they connect they simply sort of lock on each other due to the way the energy collides in that movie magic way. There's no sliding. Okay. That's a start. Next, and you will excuse me as I dust the cheetos residue off my hands and fastidiously re-arrange my collection of vintage LucasArts games, giving particular attention to X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter, I would like to remind this man that a lightsaber in any incarnation, hand guard or no, is in no way a product that is to be judged based on the potential engineering sensibilities of a non-force user. Now, while I check my derelict OKCupid site and throw away these expired condoms and weep softly into the remnants of my life before walking upstairs to ask mom for more chips, what I'm going to pointedly remind everyone that the only reason that lightsabers are a sensible weapon in any fashion is because they make excellent tools for someone who perceives reality in the unique way that only a force sensitive individual can. They are not fighting in 'real time.' They have precognitive minds that expand outwards to see ahead of time and they can judge the outcome of their actions in many different dimensions, giving them keen insight into things like how someone is pointing a gun at them from behind and would have killed them in a second, or where that sith's swing is going, or where that blaster bolt is going to be in a few seconds and where your saber would have to be to deflect it exactly back into the firer. Any battle against a jedi is like a chess match with a person who can see many moves into the future and know which ones would have turned out to be mistakes so they go always with the moves that they psychically know turn out the worst for you. So you can't just slide a saber down to someone's fingers and be all like 'ha ha, tricked you' oh god you'd just be opening yourself up for all kinds of bad situations that way. The only way to defeat them in combat is to either take them by complete o66 level surprise or to battle them so viciously that the sheer overwhelming panorama of multiversal potential seconds-in-the-future outcomes begins to overwhelm and shorten their precognition and give you a chance to trap them in a situation where they cannot avoid being struck down. Now if you will excuse me, the anime club is convening and I am under the impression that there will be a girl there, I cannot waste my time on the likes of you cultureless philistines, I must brusquely iron my finest sweatpants and be off in the stanza.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Actually there IS a lightsabre resistant metal used in vibroblades which are used for Jedi trainees that CAN hold off another light saber.
Yes ahem as any TRUE fan would know, this is cortosis weave. It is also extraordinarily rare and there are nearly no practitioners who would consider a hand-guard to be worth the loss of hand mobility. I BID YOU ALL ADIEU
*takes a hit off inhaler*
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: I mean let's start out with how lightsabers don't work that way. Let's just start there. Let's start with how when they connect they simply sort of lock on each other due to the way the energy collides in that movie magic way. There's no sliding. Okay. That's a start. Next, and you will excuse me as I dust the cheetos residue off my hands and fastidiously re-arrange my collection of vintage LucasArts games, giving particular attention to X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter, I would like to remind this man that a lightsaber in any incarnation, hand guard or no, is in no way a product that is to be judged based on the potential engineering sensibilities of a non-force user. Now, while I check my derelict OKCupid site and throw away these expired condoms and weep softly into the remnants of my life before walking upstairs to ask mom for more chips, what I'm going to pointedly remind everyone that the only reason that lightsabers are a sensible weapon in any fashion is because they make excellent tools for someone who perceives reality in the unique way that only a force sensitive individual can. They are not fighting in 'real time.' They have precognitive minds that expand outwards to see ahead of time and they can judge the outcome of their actions in many different dimensions, giving them keen insight into things like how someone is pointing a gun at them from behind and would have killed them in a second, or where that sith's swing is going, or where that blaster bolt is going to be in a few seconds and where your saber would have to be to deflect it exactly back into the firer. Any battle against a jedi is like a chess match with a person who can see many moves into the future and know which ones would have turned out to be mistakes so they go always with the moves that they psychically know turn out the worst for you. So you can't just slide a saber down to someone's fingers and be all like 'ha ha, tricked you' oh god you'd just be opening yourself up for all kinds of bad situations that way. The only way to defeat them in combat is to either take them by complete o66 level surprise or to battle them so viciously that the sheer overwhelming panorama of multiversal potential seconds-in-the-future outcomes begins to overwhelm and shorten their precognition and give you a chance to trap them in a situation where they cannot avoid being struck down. Now if you will excuse me, the anime club is convening and I am under the impression that there will be a girl there, I cannot waste my time on the likes of you cultureless philistines, I must brusquely iron my finest sweatpants and be off in the stanza.
I think this is my favorite post. Ever.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Mine too.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I'd also like to note, regarding the midi chlorian thing: The midi chlorians as I understand it do not "make" the force, they are a byproduct of high force sensitivity. So force users will have high counts but adding midi chlorians does not a force user make.
At least that's the explanation that makes most sense to me, so I'm sticking with it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
As I understand it, midichlorians do not exist outside of fanfic.
At least that's the explanation that makes the most sense to me, so I'm sticking to it.
[ August 21, 2009, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
uuum.... they're canon, get over it. the head honcho of the franchise if Peter Jackson, he said they exist and so they do.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
...what? Peter Jackson?
Anyway, Blayne, what with your tvtropes worship, you surely know of discontinuity, yes?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
George Lucas, sorry, I often confuse the two.
Discontinuity to me seems just like justification for wangst, get over it and roll with the times, respectable franchises will at least attempt an authors saving throw if its not popular enough.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
...really?
I don't think wangst means what you think it means.
Wangst certainly is not the joking, slightly passive aggressive manner of showing you disliked a movie/show/plot twist. (such as my assertion there were only two Alien movies, because wouldn't it be stupid to kill off such good characters at the beginning of a third film, making the entire ending of the second film utterly pointless?)
Well, furthermore, Sarlacc's have a multi-century digestive process that can allow them to live off a single meal for hundreds of years. Besides, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of creatures on Earth that survive exactly the same way. Why would it be surprising that such a creature could exist like that in space?
And yeah, I think cortorsis ore on as a sort of pommel guard would totally miss the point. The rarity isn't really that big a deal, as it's virtually useless except as anti-lightsaber armor. The Jensaari seemed to find enough of it to make full body armor.
Plus, the second death star was unfinished. Both the ports that the attack team flew into were exposed because the outer shell hadn't been finished yet. That doesn't necessarily explain the giant exposed shaft in the throne room, but people put tons of dangerous stuff all over the place like that, especially when they're huge egomaniacs who can't fathom their own demise.
And no, I have no problem at all being this much of a geek. Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
That really was a great post, Samprimary. I vote it for the best post of 2009 so far.
I totally agree with the man on the horrible engineering in the Star Wars universe, though. It's completely laughable. It also has terrible astronomy and terrible physics. You could design a college course around pointing out all the errors in physics and astronomy and would need to take more than one semester to cover it all. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Was there really that much involved that they could possibly mess up that is related to astronomy?
They fly from point A to point B, other than hyperspace technology, what is there to it really?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Entering and leaving Atmo, landing, intertia....
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Obligatory Darth's & Droids post.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
I simply question the mental state of a man who put little people and children in furry little suits and told them to dance.
Am I the only one?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: uuum.... they're canon, get over it. the head honcho of the franchise i[s George Lucas], he said they exist and so they do.
No.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: uuum.... they're canon, get over it. the head honcho of the franchise i[s George Lucas], he said they exist and so they do.
No.
Yes, stop whining. Its supposed to be SCIENCE fiction emphasis on the SCIENCE even if on the Mo's Scale of Scifi Hardness Star Wars is pretty much on the "soft" end mini chlorians make more sense then it being some kind of mystical voodoo.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: ... mini chlorians make more sense then it being some kind of mystical voodoo.
In my mind they're exactly the same thing, hence "space opera" rather than "science fiction."
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I don't think midi chlorians were necessary per say, and I do not consider Star Wars to be science fiction (it's a pretty straight up fantasy story with shinier stuff) but I don't understand why they get such a bad rap.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
That's like asking why jar jar binks got such a bad rap. Both were needless and stupid!
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Was there really that much involved that they could possibly mess up that is related to astronomy?
They fly from point A to point B, other than hyperspace technology, what is there to it really?
Just to cite a couple I remember, the asteroid field with rocks flying around they had to dodge is nothing like a real asteroid belt. Any chunks of rock in that state would not last a month before collisions or ejection cleared it out. In our solar system's asteroid belt, for instance, if you were in orbit you might see a few lights in the sky that moved against the background of stars. In a ring plane like Saturn's, you would find mostly dust and all moving smoothly in similar orbits.
They got out on an asteroid and had normal gravity, and wore no pressure suits at all, only some sort of breathing mask. Asteroids have micro-gravity. You would barely bump into them from time to time, and could jump off into space fairly easily. They don't have any atmosphere because they don't have the gravity to attract or hold one. So the crew would have explosively decompressed as soon as they stepped out of the ship.
Luke flew between solar systems with no hyperdrive, at one point. It seems like there were several possible solar systems to choose from, even. The nearest star to Earth's sun is something like 12 light-years away, so it would have taken a minimum of 10 years at sublight velocities to reasonably get to a nearby solar system. If he could accelerate at, say, 20 Gs halfway there, then decelerate the rest of the way it would save ship's time, but in the meantime outside the ship the story would have been moving along without him, and when he next met up with Han and Leia, they might have been great-grandparents. Even assuming they were accelerating too, and stayed roughly the same age as Luke, events in the galaxy at large would have advanced by at least 10 years or so, and they would have been out of the action.
I only saw the movies once each, and only the first 4 of them in order of release, so these are just a few things I happened to remember because of groaning about them so much at the time. I remember many more. I could do an hour lecture about each point, explaining the true case and showing why the movie version was ridiculous, but it's so not worth it. I'd rather spend my time reading actual good science fiction. You know?
I don't blame anyone for liking Star Wars when they were a kid. It's totally a kid's story. I just wish it were a good one.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:I don't blame anyone for liking Star Wars when they were a kid. It's totally a fantasy (as opposed to sci fi) story.
Fixed that for you.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Let's not forget Obi-Wan going from having a catwalk fall on him, and clearly having his pelvis crushed on camera, to being perfectly fine, if a bit dazed after 5 minutes.
NO GUARDRAILS = OSHA VIOLATION
Storm troopers are totally unfamiliar with the concept of taking cover during live fire exchanges, having zero hand to hand combat abilities, despite being bred specifically for their fighting skills.
Jedi powers seem tied only to the necessities of dramatic tension. One minute jedi can take down buildings with their minds, and the next it's a tall order to grab a light saber from 5 feet away. They can jump up and down incredible distances, but finding themselves hanging from the edge of an abyss, must summon the strength to pull themselves up five feet.
Palpatine kills like 4 members of the jedi high council in about 3 seconds. They appear not to know how to use light sabers. I mean, that's just lazy film making.
For some reason, the "entire legion" of the best troops in the Empire on Endor have no air support, and are defeated by pygmy bears throwing small rocks at their heads. Talk about the Worf Effect in reverse!
Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 5108) on :
quote:Luke flew between solar systems with no hyperdrive, at one point.
When? In New Hope he flew everywhere on the Millenium Falcon, which has hyperdrive. In Empire Strikes Back he went everywhere in his X-Wing, which has hyperdrive. And in Return of the Jedi he flew in the Millenium Falcon and an Imperial shuttle (Lamda class, I believe), which have hyperdrive.
You're other points I obviously can't disagree with, but they didn't stop me from enjoying the movies. Jar Jar Binks and the new trilogy did that.
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
Yeah I mean for all the crap the franchise (rightfully) takes now, it's a Cool Engine. Something that managed something with such style and panache that it sparked an entire library of cool things because it's just such a neat theme. Anything that brought us X-Wings and Lightsabers and the Millenium Falcon deserves that.
And it's always got potential, even if it's been squandered in the last decade. We'll see. There's a live action tv series coming up and the animated series was Definitely For Younger Audiences But Definitely Well Done.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Avatar300:
quote:Luke flew between solar systems with no hyperdrive, at one point.
When? In New Hope he flew everywhere on the Millenium Falcon, which has hyperdrive. In Empire Strikes Back he went everywhere in his X-Wing, which has hyperdrive. And in Return of the Jedi he flew in the Millenium Falcon and an Imperial shuttle (Lamda class, I believe), which have hyperdrive.
I can't recall Luke flying without a hyperdrive, but wasn't the Millenium Falcon's hyperdrive supposed to be busted when they flew from Hoth to Bespin?
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
True. We could just say that star systems in whatever galaxy they're in happen to be really close together....
Is there some official canonical source as to where Bespin is relative to Hoth?
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
The star wars wiki has them listed a minimum of 1,150 light years apart (it gives distance from the core, but no angle of offset).
Hoth Bespin Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: uuum.... they're canon, get over it. the head honcho of the franchise i[s George Lucas], he said they exist and so they do.
No.
I've never understood why there's so much hatred for the midis. People complain, "Oh, they make the Force less magical. Now it's all just science!" Not really. For starters, the original trilogy already established that strength in the Force is inherited, that it's in one's blood. Second, as someone mentioned above, being strong in the Force gives one a high midi concentration. Not vice versa. Midis are not the Force. People have been saying since 1999 that you can give someone Force powers by injecting them with midis. I don't think it works that way.
ETA As for the trip from Hoth to Bespin. I've heard one explanation that's possible. The Falcon has a backup hyperdrive which is far slower and less reliable than the primary one, and thus only used for emergencies. The movie doesn't indicate how long the trip took, but Luke did have enough time to receive a fair amount of jedi training, so it obviously wasn't the day or two it probably would have taken with a good hyperdrive, nor the years if not centuries that it would have taken at relativistic sublight speeds.
[ August 22, 2009, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: neo-dragon ]
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote: ETA As for the trip from Hoth to Bespin. I've heard explanation that's possible. The Falcon has a backup hyperdrive which is far slower and less reliable than the primary one, and thus only used for emergencies. The movie doesn't indicate how long the trip took, but Luke did have enough time to receive a fair amount of jedi training, so it obviously wasn't the day or two it probably would have taken with a good hyperdrive.
You would think Han would have activated it a few times when the primary failed and he had Tie Fighters and Star Destroyers firing blasters at them.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:And it's always got potential, even if it's been squandered in the last decade. We'll see. There's a live action tv series coming up and the animated series was Definitely For Younger Audiences But Definitely Well Done.
Okey but please tell me the live action isn't aimed at thirteen year olds.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
No, it's a deeply interwoven web of stories set in a period of political intrigue, focusing on the relationships between individuals and the seat of power over all intelligent life, seeking to portray the human condition realistically, through a lens of moral agnosticism.
:giggle:
Of course it's for 13 year olds! What, when you're looking for a nice slice of pizza and a cold beer, do you drive to Chucky Cheeze's and then sit sour faced at the screaming hoards of filthy children wiping pizza sauce all over the fronts of their trousers and blowing chunks in the ball pit? Do you sit down for an hour of Law and Order anticipating an inventively quirky and non-formulaic sonnet on the state of society and the criminal justice system?
Because I do that kind of thing, and I'm obviously a very bitter and hateful person for it.
[ August 23, 2009, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Orincoro ]
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
i just GOTTA echo everyone's praise on Sam's post...
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I don't want star wars to portray the human condition realistically. I want star wars to portray the sapient lifeform condition full of magic people gallivanting across space to chop people into little bits using burney space swords. They can do this and also focus on relationships between individuals and an interwoven web of stories and more or less accomplish an action-adventure-saga-feel.
with magic people.
and their burney space swords.
quote:Do you sit down for an hour of Law and Order anticipating an inventively quirky and non-formulaic sonnet on the state of society and the criminal justice system?
what's a sonnet. is that when you dance around in a dress, except with words? in that case no, not since jerry orbach died
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Touché sir. Touché.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: True. We could just say that star systems in whatever galaxy they're in happen to be really close together....
Is there some official canonical source as to where Bespin is relative to Hoth?
The inside cover of the NJO books have a map of the galaxy with pretty much all the planets in the SW universe at the time there.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: No, it's a deeply interwoven web of stories set in a period of political intrigue, focusing on the relationships between individuals and the seat of power over all intelligent life, seeking to portray the human condition realistically, through a lens of moral agnosticism.
:giggle:
Of course it's for 13 year olds! What, when you're looking for a nice slice of pizza and a cold beer, do you drive to Chucky Cheeze's and then sit sour faced at the screaming hoards of filthy children wiping pizza sauce all over the fronts of their trousers and blowing chunks in the ball pit? Do you sit down for an hour of Law and Order anticipating an inventively quirky and non-formulaic sonnet on the state of society and the criminal justice system?
Because I do that kind of thing, and I'm obviously a very bitter and hateful person for it.
I think kids deserve decent science fiction too, though.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
The thing that bugged me most about the technology in Star Wars was the pathetic level of the holographic projections.
Okay, in the first movie C3PIO was damaged so the ragged and staticky projection of Princess Leia was understandable. But why on earth, in all the subsequent depictions of holograms did they look the same? The technology that developed light sabers, etc, couldn't come up with decent holograms?? That's just stupid.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
By C3PIO you of course mean R2D2 (and it's C3PO, or spelled out Threepio). Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by ricree101: The star wars wiki has them listed a minimum of 1,150 light years apart (it gives distance from the core, but no angle of offset).
IIRC, didn't R2 fiddle with the hyperdrive, or Han or Chewie fiddled with it to patch it until they could get to Bespin for a proper fix?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cashew:
Okay, in the first movie C3PIO was damaged so the ragged and staticky projection of Princess Leia was understandable. But why on earth, in all the subsequent depictions of holograms did they look the same? The technology that developed light sabers, etc, couldn't come up with decent holograms??
Maybe it is just extremely difficult to create good 3d video that projects itself onto empty space.
Of course when thinking this over you must completely disregard the fact that R2 managed a holographic image on Naboo which kicked the crap out of the best that the rebel alliance's central command stationary intelligence projection unit almost two decades later could create.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: George Lucas, sorry, I often confuse the two.
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