Where did everyone go? Hatrack seems so slow these days. I am looking at the front page and seeing threads from the 12th. I remember when Hatrack was so busy that at the end of the day when I got home from work, I would have to look back a couple of pages to see the posts from that morning. *sets down old lady walking cane*
I miss that.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
----
In all seriousness, it turns out it IS possible to poison a well so thoroughly people no longer try to draw from it.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think part of it is also the fact that a lot of us are busy, and there hasn't been a lot of fresh blood in here lately. People always come and go, but it's usually balanced by newbies, which we are more and more scarce.
I think I used to average like 300 posts a month. We're halfway through September and I only have 40. I'm a lot more busy than I used to be, and don't have the time to really delve into things the way I used to (I miss those days), and part of it is also that there's less to delve into with fewer and fewer posts and active threads. It's sort of a self-perpetuating problem.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I don't go where I don't feel welcome.
OTOH, I do go where I do feel welcome.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You're ALWAYS welcome
Where else would we get our ketchup related camaraderie?
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Yeah, I'm pretty sure we're all busy, at least I am.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: In all seriousness, it turns out it IS possible to poison a well so thoroughly people no longer try to draw from it.
...
...
:crickets:
:fade to black:
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
I promise to be highly active as soon as Lost comes back on the air!
Otherwise I just can't seem to find the motivation or interest to participate much these days.
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
quote:In all seriousness, it turns out it IS possible to poison a well so thoroughly people no longer try to draw from it.
I agree with you katharina.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Without getting into a long debate about forum shifts and moderator functions, I think the forum will be fine, as for myself I've been pretty busy lately.
But honey does attract more flies than vinegar.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
The downward spiral is self-perpetuating, maybe? It's discouraging to spend 30 or 45 minutes thinking up and writing a topic, only to have a very small and unenthusiastic smattering of replies.
Also, when you're afraid of making a well thought out post because someone might jump all over you and call you stupid for some trivial error or because (God forbid) you admitted ignorance in a certain subject, it discourages healthy posting too.
*shrugs* I'm new here, so I don't remember anything about how "things used to be," so take what I say with a grain of salt.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
I'm all out of salt. Any other suggestions?
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
quote:Originally posted by Strider: I promise to be highly active as soon as Lost comes back on the air!
Ha ha...same here. Not to mention the fact that I've been in the middle of planning a wedding and will be until January 23rd. It keeps one just a wee bit busy.
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: But honey does attract more flies than vinegar.
Too true. And for whatever reason, it seems like a lot of the thread topics have been more serious or just about something with which I myself am not overly familiar (gaming being a prime example and one that shows up with great frequency).
For those of us who are still relative newbies, well, speaking for myself again, when it comes to posting a thread as opposed to simply making a comment, I'm somewhat timid.
Posted by DSH (Member # 741) on :
Can't hardly consider myself a lurker if I start posting all the time can I? Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I may or may not be planning an epic ten-year landmark.
Also, I actually want to get a degree from my new program, so I'm doing homework. Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: Also, when you're afraid of making a well thought out post because someone might jump all over you and call you stupid for some trivial error or because (God forbid) you admitted ignorance in a certain subject, it discourages healthy posting too.
This happens on every forum to newbies. Less people want to read a newbie thread because it's a) more likely to repeat a topic oft or recently discussed, b) more likely to be poorly written, c) more likely to be backed by an unspoken agenda, d) the OP is more likely to be sensitive to criticism or totally unreceptive to thread drift. Why should everyone here trust your thread when they don't know you? I would try not to be frustrated by that- virtually all the threads I've ever started have gotten little or even no response. Now I rarely start threads- I don't take it personally.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Strider: I'm all out of salt. Any other suggestions?
A goiter.
quote:This happens on every forum to newbies. Less people want to read a newbie thread because it's a) more likely to repeat a topic oft or recently discussed, b) more likely to be poorly written, c) more likely to be backed by an unspoken agenda, d) the OP is more likely to be sensitive to criticism or totally unreceptive to thread drift. Why should everyone here trust your thread when they don't know you?
Depends on reading habits, then. I rarely even notice the thread starter when I click - I read a topic (on this forum and all others) if I think the title is interesting. I'm not sure where trust comes into the equation. (I read this topic, actually, because I thought it would be about Poke from Ender's Shadow )
quote:I would try not to be frustrated by that- virtually all the threads I've ever started have gotten little or even no response. Now I rarely start threads- I don't take it personally.
I don't think the result is so much frustration* as it is apathy. If I (or anyone, for that matter) create a one paragraph topic about a trivial matter, I can expect fairly trivial responses. If I spend a decent amount of time carefully crafting a topic and expect an insightful and challenging discussion, and the response is of the same quality as the one paragraph thread, what incentives are there to spend all that extra time?
Well, there are a few. Devotion to the site, or more importantly to a feeling of friendship and family with other posters can keep people posting. But for newer members (like myself) who have little vested interest, there's not much in place to make them want to keep posting.
I mean, my main draw to this place is the discussions about concepts and things I think are important or fascinating, and I read through the threads here daily, but it's not too often now that I desire to post. I think that's a valid explanation of Lyrhawn's post about the lack of new members.
*I want to make sure you understand my intentions. I'm not emotionally frustrated if that's what you mean. I may come off as rather passionate, that's a unfortunate byproduct of the way I write. It's actually somewhat difficult for me to find a "written" tone people find entirely dispassionate, but I try. So long as I'm not typing in all caps or using obscenities, it probably means I'm not worked up.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Strider: I'm all out of salt. Any other suggestions?
Pepper.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
would it still be accurate to call it a grain of pepper? Or is there better terminology?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
A peppercorn.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Strider: would it still be accurate to call it a grain of pepper? Or is there better terminology?
A grind of pepper maybe.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
Okay, I now officially take what Dogbreath said with a peppercorn.
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
If not that, there's always Mrs. Dash.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: *shrugs* I'm new here, so I don't remember anything about how "things used to be," so take what I say with a grain of salt.
I'm not sure how it would feel to come in to this Hatrack as a newbie. It's nostalgia that's keeping me here now.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
An individual unit of pepper is a flake, unless it's fresh ground. Then it's a speck. (Says who? Me. )
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Red pepper comes in flakes. Black and white do not. They come in corns.
Posted by natural_mystic (Member # 11760) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
But honey does attract more flies than vinegar.
On the other hand, it is the cracked egg that attracts flies...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Whenever someones mentions the the old days of Hatrack (myself included), I always hear it in Londo Mollari's voice.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
When I think about the older days of hatrack, and granted I only know it up until mid 2005, I think about it in terms of posters I looked forward to reading, who no longer visit.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:But honey does attract more flies than vinegar.
Actually, it doesn't. You can test it yourself.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:But honey does attract more flies than vinegar.
Actually, it doesn't. You can test it yourself.
Depends on the type of flies.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Of course, that raises the question of whether we really want to attract flies in the first place.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
If one wishes to trap and kill them, attracting them is the first step.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Whenever someones mentions the the old days of Hatrack (myself included), I always hear it in Londo Mollari's voice.
Oh dear. Now I do, too.
--Mel
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:But honey does attract more flies than vinegar.
Actually, it doesn't. You can test it yourself.
I can't be blamed if honey inevitably turns to vinegar upon contacting you.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
At the supermarket where I worked in the bakery, we used vinegar, and it worked fine.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*shrug*
One person does not a welcome make. When I'm repeatedly misquoted or misconstrued in what seems to be an intentional manner, and nearly everything on a forum is so acrimonious that I don't even bother to get involved most of the time... I go somewhere else, that's all.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
And you are to be commended for doing so.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Jeeze, over the past few days things have been slowing down to the point where I remember the forum being more active, and I've been here for barely a year.
Posted by Pegasus (Member # 10464) on :
Agreed.
I hardly post, but very much enjoy reading through the discussions. I guess maybe that contributes to the problem.
Also the poisoning the well thing too.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: *shrug*
One person does not a welcome make. When I'm repeatedly misquoted or misconstrued in what seems to be an intentional manner, and nearly everything on a forum is so acrimonious that I don't even bother to get involved most of the time... I go somewhere else, that's all.
I get that, I really do. As for myself, and I'm not saying your course of action is wrong, I won't leave because I'd rather remain and try to keep the forum enjoyable. By leaving I feel like I'm giving it up to the wolves.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, good luck fighting the wolves, BB. Really, I mean that sincerely. I just don't have it in me to do so right now. I have other battles to fight. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Which is, of course, why you're continuing to post here about why you're not posting here. Besides blaming it on anonymous "wolves," of course.
I mean, seriously, I don't get the drama. Unless you're going to try to change something, why even bother insulting the people who're still here?
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
Trying to change it does nothing. Calling them out by name also does nothing. I don't see any posts in this thread as being insulting. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You're so confident that you're not a wolf?
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Could there be any correlation with our esteemed host not putting out another Enderverse novel anytime soon? Granted, there was Ender in Exile, so maybe my theory is bunk, but if the only intake we have is word of mouth from other members and not from people reading OSC then yeah, it makes sense things would be slower.
As for me, I just don't have the time or the energy or, frankly, the desire. There was a time when Hatrack was my primary community. It was where I felt most at home and where most of my friendships were. Luckily, since then, I've grown up and found people who I really enjoy being around IRL, and so Hatrack has lost its function. I still come and check in, obviously, but this is no longer my community. No reason. There wasn't anyone who drove me away, or a general attitude that drove me away. I just ... moved on. *shrug*
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Which is, of course, why you're continuing to post here about why you're not posting here. Besides blaming it on anonymous "wolves," of course.
I mean, seriously, I don't get the drama. Unless you're going to try to change something, why even bother insulting the people who're still here?
This is actually a somewhat good example of what's wrong around here. Analyzing the situation is fine, disagreeing and saying so is also fine. But where in the post is the empathy, or the good will? Instead you make light of her determination to stop coming by saying in effect, "Why are you still here?"
Why couldn't you say all that you did, and still make room somewhere in the post to say, "You're presence is welcome here?" Unless of course you don't actually want KQ and her ilk to make appearances here.
In addition, I recognize that to try and make complete posts, or statements that are perfect is of course unreasonable. I don't expect people to always say things without omitting necessary elements, that's just not how anybody speaks.
But I have noticed on these boards, and indeed in 90% of the associations I have, that people are terrible at offering criticisms but very enthusiastic at doing it. When I first came here I was extremely impressed with how smart the people in this forum are, and I still am. But criticisms and censures simply must be followed up with praise or accolades, and most people forget that step. People so easily get stuck on the holes in the previous posters statements, and they want to point them out, nobody wants to actually change somebody else's mind and be happy with them. Instead they will settle for simply proving them wrong, or demonstrating that they can remain smug and content while the other poster loses control and blows up.
I'm sorry that all came out in a post the originally was designed as a response to you Tom, I'm not saying all of that applies to you. But are you honestly glad to see all the people gone that are? Perhaps because you've been a member far longer you've seen so many come and go you just accept it as par the course, but there are posters here whose invaluable knowledge and resources have helped me immensely, and now they are gone. There are personalities that made me happier knowing they were around during the day and now they are silent.
I can't hope to fill even a measure of the void these people have left, do you even notice the emptiness? Will you eventually get bored and leave? I don't much know what I will do, but I do know what I want to do. I want to look forward to talking to my friends, acquaintance, and new voices on this board and to learn, have fun, and help others. That is becoming harder as the months pass, no doubt about that in my mind.
I don't want to just whine about it, I'd like it to change. But besides trying my best not to be what I disagree with and occasionally talking about it in places like this thread, I just don't know what else I can do. Maybe this place will inevitably change into something else for better or worse. But I can't honestly say I love the decor more now than I did back in 2005. Maybe I just need to appreciate what's replaced it, but I just can't see what has and why I should admire it. Can you help me?
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
For online activities, one rule I have is that I will never pick online over real life. So, when real life gets busy, I tend to lose interest in online. I know right now I am in a real life mode (I play some farming games online and people have been upset by my lack of interest).
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
quote:You're so confident that you're not a wolf?
Yes. I don't suppose I'm universally beloved. I imagine that my minor presence here on Hatrack goes relatively unnoticed, in fact. But when it comes to well-poisoning, and wolf-being, I'm pretty confident of my innocence. I'm fair and I treat people pretty well. I'm not perfect, but I'm not hostile.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Why couldn't you say all that you did, and still make room somewhere in the post to say, "You're presence is welcome here?"
Because if she doesn't already know that, she certainly wouldn't believe me if I said that. Nor can I speak for the community; I cannot say with authority who is welcome here, because I don't get to make that kind of choice.
More importantly, I don't get to tell ketchupqueen whether she should feel welcome or not; she alone can make that determination. Certainly, I disagree with her; I think she's generally very well-liked by the people here. But for whatever reason, she doesn't think so -- and she's absolutely entitled to that opinion, however wrong I believe it to be.
-------
quote:But are you honestly glad to see all the people gone that are?
Heh. No. I have had shouting matches with the owner of this site and his wife over just this issue. I told him exactly what would happen if he continued doing what he was doing; I told him exactly what effect it would have on this place, and told him at great length how much I would regret it. I recommended specific steps to address the issue several years ago, when they would have made a difference.
I was absolutely, entirely, comprehensively correct. I was also vilified and slandered and mocked for making the effort.
So, yeah, I'm sad to see Hatrack reduced to what it is. But blaming the "wolves" is missing the point. From the very moment certain decisions were made, its current state became inevitable. And it's not the fault of some handful of hypothetically unconstructive posters, either.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Tom:
quote:I have had shouting matches with the owner of this site and his wife over just this issue. I told him exactly what would happen if he continued doing what he was doing; I told him exactly what effect it would have on this place, and told him at great length how much I would regret it. I recommended specific steps to address the issue several years ago, when they would have made a difference.
What in your opinon has Mr. Card and wife been doing that directly contributes to the state we are discussing? What could they have been doing to prevent it?
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
What decisions?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*sigh* It's old news, BB. The site will someday find a new equilibrium; IMO, it's almost there now. (A major shake-up could disturb things again, for good or ill, but I mean a major one -- like a site redesign, a promotional period, etc.)
I don't want to go into it at length. To sum up: the "this is Card's living room" metaphor worked very well, as long as people believed it. But it was only a metaphor that could work as long as the atmosphere contributing to it was sustained. Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I think once the "what has happened to Hatrack" threads outnumber all other threads - which should be within about 12-15 months, by my guess - people will all stop, rub their eyes, look around, realize they all want to be friends and just have a good time talking to each other, and everything will be all right again.
(OTOH, OSC hasn't published a World Watch for over half a year, and is writing in a new universe with series potential [Stonefather or something?], so there are real reasons to hope that whatever attracts people to his living room might shift to things less controversial than gay marriage and war.)
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
Since I think I came back to Hatrack around 6 months ago, I wonder - what was everyone talking about before I got here that was so great?
I think I got most of my numbers in posts (granted, they are not high), discussing religion. We don't even talk about that as much as we used to.
What were the topics discussed?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Since I think I came back to Hatrack around 6 months ago, I wonder - what was everyone talking about before I got here that was so great?
What were the topics discussed?
Pretty much the same type of topics that are discussed now. The difference was more one of tone and number of thoughtful participants in the conversations. Go look at some of the longer threads from 2003 if you're curious.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: *sigh* It's old news, BB. The site will someday find a new equilibrium; IMO, it's almost there now. (A major shake-up could disturb things again, for good or ill, but I mean a major one -- like a site redesign, a promotional period, etc.)
I don't want to go into it at length. To sum up: the "this is Card's living room" metaphor worked very well, as long as people believed it. But it was only a metaphor that could work as long as the atmosphere contributing to it was sustained.
I still don't understand then how the forum developed to how it was, and now it's suddenly in a state of flux. Was there something unique about it when it was first conceived, and when I joined the forum it was already transitioning and I simply failed to recognize it?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yes. But I honestly don't think it'd do any good to discuss it here. Drop me an email if you're really interested.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
Someone once posted a fairly long post about forum evolution and ideas to keep a forum from degrading. I don't remember if that was Tom or not, but it seems like a lot of this has been discussed before in great detail.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*nod* It was probably Samprimary and I. We've had these discussions before.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Hatrack has gone through a lot of transitions over the years. There have even been dead weeks in the past that haven't been the kiss of death for the site. There have been trolls before. There have been fights before. It can be hard to tell if we are in a normal part of the up and down cycle or there is a longer term trend.
I do think there has been a general deterioration in the past couple years. We've lost some of the calmer voices recently which makes the shriller voices more apparent. Many of the people who dominate the forum right now seem to enjoy a fight. I'm not sure why that is exactly. I think overtime we have distilled off the lighter happier contributors and have therefore concentrated the heavier angrier elements of the forum.
Maybe we have simply grown too old as a community. We've rehashed the same topics too many times. Many have become bored with listening and rebutting the same arguments one more time. Those who still show up for the argument tend to be the hard core so the debate is from the outset much more polarized. There is too much old baggage lying around both within certain topics and between certain individuals. Unless you've followed every thread for years, its easy to accidentally blow on smoldering coals and start a fire.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
I notice that there are some posts that I read and groan, because I know that as soon as person A says X, person B will have to say y and the rest of the thread will be the two of them bickering. This is especially annoying if it was an interesting topic up until then.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I just spent the last little while looking back at old landmark threads. I miss when the community here was so intimate and generally supportive that it was a safe place for people to share of themselves that way.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: I miss when the community here was so intimate and generally supportive that it was a safe place for people to share of themselves that way.
As do I.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: I miss when the community here was so intimate and generally supportive that it was a safe place for people to share of themselves that way.
As do I.
Me too.
As much as I am tempted to blame certain individuals (who will remain nameless) for the change in the feel of this community, I recognize that this is overly simplistic. Perhaps we all need to bear part of the responsibility. We have always had acerbic members of the community. We have always had those who over react. We have always had trolls. We have always had personality conflicts and flame wars, but somehow in the past we managed to keep those people and those discussions from dominating the community and setting the tone for the forum.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I honestly don't feel like it's an "unsafe" place to share yourself. The people here who get aggressive in political/religious topics are almost always perfectly civil in other threads. However, threads that basically say "hey, I did this recently and I'm proud of myself and want to share it" don't lend themselves well to discussion. There's not much other people can say other than "Wow, that's cool," unless the topic naturally lends itself towards an actual discussion of some kind.
I think Landmark threads are like midichlorians - they are not what makes a good forum all by themselves, but they arise naturally when people in the forum are otherwise close knit and have plenty of other things to talk about nicely.
Posted by Dante (Member # 1106) on :
I can't speak for everyone, but my non-frequenting of the forum is due completely to a specific handful of posters who have made the whole place so unpleasant that I rarely have any desire to contribute to a conversation here.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Again, I'd have to ask - is that really a problem outside political/religious threads?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dante: I can't speak for everyone, but my non-frequenting of the forum is due completely to a specific handful of posters who have made the whole place so unpleasant that I rarely have any desire to contribute to a conversation here.
I hope that I am not one of those people, but fear that at least at times I have become such.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I think Landmark threads are like midichlorians - they are not what makes a good forum all by themselves, but they arise naturally when people in the forum are otherwise close knit and have plenty of other things to talk about nicely.
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: Again, I'd have to ask - is that really a problem outside political/religious threads?
Yes.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
Can I maybe posit, as sort of a new member, that it is difficult to join the fray? Maybe you are protecting the small community you have formed amongst yourselves over the years, but for someone like me, it is difficult to pierce.
And it seems like you know each other very well, and you know your ideological stances on many issues, that you don't want to go through them again and again.
When new blood comes in and poses an argument - they are often disparaged for not having run a search and researched the Hatrack history that already exists.
I recognize that it can be annoying to rehash, but maybe having the same argument can be used to meet and learn new people. Honestly, what keeps me from commenting and limits me to trolling is not "wolves" or pushy people. I am more intimidated by how intimately you all seem to know one another, to read each others minds before reading the posts, etc.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I think that is a fair criticism, Armoth. It has always been true to some degree -- I remember a discussion about a year after I joined as to whether or not I was still a newbie -- but I think it has gotten worse lately. It may be a circling the wagons issue.
And speaking just for myself, I tend to forget that you haven't been here for ages. You joined the same month as I did, but then disappeared for 5 years. Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote: Yes
Okay, this is an inherently touchy subject, since any attempt to point to specific behavior essentially amounts to pointing fingers which we're all trying not to do, but I really have no idea what you mean. Outside of religious/political threads I see behavior that I might consider "snarky," but don't consider that inherently rude or mean-spirited. This may be a bit subjective, since the same kind of barbed humor that might be used to demean someone in an argument can be considered friendly in a different conversation - and in real life you'd have less problem telling the difference, but this is the internet and there isn't a smiley appropriate for every shade of sarcasm. There's another forum I frequent that's a lot rowdier than this one where people make fun of each other all the time and it's just part of the local camaraderie.
On top of that, some of the animosity might carry over from an argument thread to another thread, and either you or I could be misconstruing things in either direction. Dunno.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: On top of that, some of the animosity might carry over from an argument thread to another thread
I think this is a big part of it. Especially since it sometimes seems like almost every thread turns into one these days -- or dies before it hits page 3.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Half of my point, though, was that you might be assuming animosity where there was none intended, because a poster has a generally sarcastic, biting sense of humor that happens to be genuinely mean in some cases but not in another.
Another issue: We haven't had new TV episodes to talk about for 3 months, and there was something like 10 separate threads that stayed roughly on the front page with new posts for at least half of each week that are no longer there. Hopefully that will be remedied starting this week.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: Half of my point, though, was that you might be assuming animosity where there was none intended, because a poster has a generally sarcastic, biting sense of humor that happens to be genuinely mean in some cases but not in another.
Possibly. Nonetheless, if I am no longer comfortable here, that is a fact. Analyzing it or speculating on the reasons why won't make it go away.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I still post here, but it is rare that I find a topic that interestes me these days. It's not that this place is boring, or that all the intelligent people have left....far from it.
But in the past year I had some medical issues, some serious family issues, lost my job, went back to school, and am getting ready to become a nurse in December.
I don't have the time, inclination, or energy to spare these days.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Personally, I have to agree with Armoth. I've been following Hatrack for four years but I don't feel apart of the community. I stick around because its a great place to easily catch up on news of interest to me (movies, tv shows, politics, science, etc.)
However, I don't feel free to participate more myself. I don't get many of the inside jokes and regarding a comment above, there's a feeling of hostility when a topic is discussed more than once as if people will never change their opinions and no new members have joined the forum. I also greatly admire the intelligent opinions of the posters who are older, more experience, more educated than myself but it feels like anyone who isn't an expert on a subject has an invalid opinion, particularly in the controversial/political/historical topics. Why is there so much hostility when there's so much potential for someone to educate and for another to learn?
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:Possibly. Nonetheless, if I am no longer comfortable here, that is a fact. Analyzing it or speculating on the reasons why won't make it go away.
Fair enough.
quote:but it feels like anyone who isn't an expert on a subject has an invalid opinion, particularly in the controversial/political/historical topics.
Actually I think this is pretty good point, and this is something I think is relevant even for well spoken and friendly people here. I've seen people not exactly be rude, but there are responses in conversations along the lines of "You're using logical fallacy X" with the obvious subtext that anyone who doesn't already know what logical fallacy X is shouldn't even be bothering.
Now, sometimes the person committing logical fallacy X is acting indignant and/or self righteous and clearly not in good faith, and they absolutely deserve to be called out on it. But sometimes other people who are younger/less experienced and who simply haven't taken a class in logic or debate, and they get caught in the crossfire.
Based on all the different stories going on, it looks to me like there's really nothing in particular that's destroying the forum, it's just a conflux of events, but it doesn't really change the self perpetuating nature of some of the problems.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:I honestly don't feel like it's an "unsafe" place to share yourself. The people here who get aggressive in political/religious topics are almost always perfectly civil in other threads. However, threads that basically say "hey, I did this recently and I'm proud of myself and want to share it" don't lend themselves well to discussion. There's not much other people can say other than "Wow, that's cool," unless the topic naturally lends itself towards an actual discussion of some kind.
Actually I think this is an important point. In the past, because of the good natured communication that took place here, many of those threads DID get a lot of discussion. It was the fluff and the non contentious thread bonding that added to the welcome feeling this forum had. You could post something silly or interesting about your day and, similarly to how it would go if you did this with your friends at home, a fun session of bantering would ensue.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by scholarette: Someone once posted a fairly long post about forum evolution and ideas to keep a forum from degrading. I don't remember if that was Tom or not, but it seems like a lot of this has been discussed before in great detail.
I guess I can pimp my wares a bit because I guess it has remained relevant. From June:
quote:Here, wanna hear some forum influx theory?
1. A forum's natural state is one of slow decline. Posters atrophy. Regular posters fall into lurking, or vanish from the site. This happens over the course of years. It is a gradual process. It is usually motivated by environmental changes ("I don't feel like I fit in at X anymore") or life changes ("I got a job."). Forums have need of replenishment to maintain activity.
2. Replenishment comes in the form of the forum's 'hook' that turns non-posters into posters. How do users find the site and decide to become posters? What common interests do they share? A forum becomes a demographic representative of the demographics that leech in through this hook. Active posting populations on the site will often transform over the years to mirror changes in the hook.
3. When large changes have occurred in a forum's overall demeanor over time, one usually ought to look at the hook. What has changed in it? In the case of Hatrack's changes, one need only look at which of those changes have been precipitated by changes in Orson Scott Card's demeanor and his notoriety. What kind of curious onlookers would OSC and his site bring in today as opposed to ten years ago?
4. Over the course of the years, the level of moderation in a highly political community, or any community which caters to a sub-population of people who are very zealous about their views, will determine the way in which the population will evolve. It tends to follow a pattern of Shrillness By Default. In any typical hatrack-like community undergoing potential change in tone, you will have a percentage of posters who prefer to (or will fall to) arguing in a 'shrill' fashion. You will also have people who prefer a chill, non-hostile community.
If you do not specifically curtail the 'shrill,' it will win every time.
If you look back at Hatrack when it was less 'hostile,' (I lurked during this point, mostly) you'll see the chill posters posting in droves, and the could-go-either-way posters matching the chill tone. You will always have posters which disrupt this, however. If for whatever reason the site's moderation can not or does not opt to properly curtail the influence of arguers that fall into two general categories.
— a 'Vehement' strongly believes in something to the point that it slowly overrides their cool if anyone disagrees with them. If a soft-spoken or generally pleasant poster consistently disagrees with them, even politely, it will drive the Vehement into progressively more capricious and dismissive argumentation. Result: after a certain point, the Vehement controls the tone of debate. People looking to avoid hostility (the chill posters, pleasant dudes, etc) leech out into the "oh, I generally avoid those discussions" category, and only those looking to pick a fight or invest in a fight will brawl with the Vehement, as the outcome is guaranteed (a fight).
— A 'Ferrous Cranus' (or a 'Slag') absolutely refuses to alter their stance on anything and they typically seem too dumb or too irrational to. They are not ever actually engaging in a dialogue. They have one consistent view and they will constantly 'correct' others and, in turn, avoid any self-correction and defy even the most patient and well-intentioned poster's attempts to provoke critical thought and remain obliquely incapable of understanding even the most well-worded corrections of their obvious mistakes.
— A subgroup of the Slag is the Radioactive Slag, whose default positions are typically ones that are blatantly offensive to the nominal population of the board, so they are constantly provoking ire and responses that are always, ultimately, fruitless.
These folks have the power to transform the argumentative environ of any board to themselves. It will always happen the same way, if they are allowed. It is a well observed phenomenon.
In the case of Hatrack, critical mass was achieved when, on top of other brewing problems (OSC's polemic had changed the forum's poster replenishment draw), there came a season of radioactive slags. Bean Counter and Reshpecobiggle stand out. They helped drive the forum into a much more acrimonious tone as they wear down people's patience and cede ground to an environment of provocative and dismissive argumentation.
Strange as it may seem, elsewhere I have long worked as the primary peacekeeper. I have to nip duders like these in the bud. it's the most important role of a forum's moderation team past preventing the manufacture of drama.
This forum is not moderated in a way which prevents this change from happening. It does not make good use of temps, probation, subject bans, and the regretful but necessary culling of toxic posters who refuse to change their ways. Bean Counter was allowed to post for a long, long time. When he finally got the axe after multiple unnecessary warnings, he came back under an obvious alt and ... was allowed to post again. And he counts only as an extreme example. People half as bad as him have to be curtailed (e.g., "resh, if you want to keep posting here, you need to stay out of abortion debates from now on; you've proven that you're not able to handle them in a respectful way").
In addition, the 'thread lock' system is too much of a clusterbomb. It gives a problem poster the capacity to nuke an entire discussion. It does not extract them from the process and allow the chill posters to continue in a discussion with the problem element controlled. it simply puts everything on hold until the problem poster can go mong up the next thread on that subject.
A forum's moderation team might simply be saying 'we wish for our users to have the freedom to argue that way if they wish.' This is their choice. As long as they understand what that choice is going to result in over time in a sufficiently aged community, they are welcome to make it, but they shouldn't be surprised when a few months of fallout occur from argumentation that frustrates a community at large and tilts the forum's tone to one that is increasingly hostile.
That's my take on it, anyway. Hatrack is having legacy-level problems. This stuff creeps up over the years. I have actually watched it eventually capsize whole other communities.
The Hatracks of the internet actually create the phenomenon of 'refugee' forums, which are absurdly common.
Months after the fact, I still get to observe and prod and interact with hatrack as a case study of what requires instant attention versus what will reliably self-police itself through attitudes of the community.
I know I am more or less approaching this issue from a semi-detached position (I've never really considered myself having a 'horse in this race' and was just going to roll with it and have fun) I'll say the same thing now I would say then:
Hatrack is in trouble because it is not effectively being moderated. It has not adapted to changing situations. The means by which this community self-policed in the past do not work anymore because of both how internet communities have changed and because of how orson scott card's hook has changed for the forum. the whole self-policing concept "works until it does not." once it stops working, you cannot just keep relying on the old methods and hope that the negative trends reverse for some reason.
You'll just get a new forum you don't want, because there are plenty of forces that act upon a community's cohesiveness that, in the absence of consistent moderation, actively punish a forum's politeness and depress and drive away people who try politeness only to see it utterly fail. We had/have that here! It only rewards the posters and the posting habits you do not want to keep.
A long time has passed since the forum needed to wake up, increase both its moderator coverage AND the consistency of its enforced policies, and (this is important!) have policies clearly, unambiguously spelled out to consistently enforce. Simply referring to the generic terms of service agreement does not cut it at all and is one of the more common and incredibly dumb mistakes a forum's controlling interests can make.
Given the degree that hatrack has contracted from a formerly vibrant community, the usefulness of my advice has decreased significantly and the forum is already on its way to a 'reboot' phase. Compared to, say, a year ago, there is much less to save; considering that I still in September classify hatrack as an 'effectively unmoderated' or 'nerfdarts from space' forum I cannot reasonably anticipate change.
quote:Originally Posted By Tom, Son of David. Or was it Davidson? I have had shouting matches with the owner of this site and his wife over just this issue. I told him exactly what would happen if he continued doing what he was doing; I told him exactly what effect it would have on this place, and told him at great length how much I would regret it. I recommended specific steps to address the issue several years ago, when they would have made a difference.
I was absolutely, entirely, comprehensively correct. I was also vilified and slandered and mocked for making the effort.
So, yeah, I'm sad to see Hatrack reduced to what it is. But blaming the "wolves" is missing the point. From the very moment certain decisions were made, its current state became inevitable. And it's not the fault of some handful of hypothetically unconstructive posters, either.
I guess I would like to hear this story too, especially what/when these 'certain decisions' are/were made and how you tried to prevent this situation from inevitably coming to pass!
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I am also interested in hearing Tom's story, and it seems to me that with at least three interested people it makes more sense to go ahead and post it here than try and maintain 3 separate e-mail conversations. I can't imagine it being more inflammatory than other stuff on the board.
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
quote:Given the degree that hatrack has contracted from a formerly vibrant community, the usefulness of my advice has decreased significantly and the forum is already on its way to a 'reboot' phase. Compared to, say, a year ago, there is much less to save; considering that I still in September classify hatrack as an 'effectively unmoderated' or 'nerfdarts from space' forum I cannot reasonably anticipate change.
Okay, I'll bite.
What is a nerfdarts from space forum?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
It has to do with the style by which the forum is moderated. "rocks from space" comes from situations when the moderation of a site seems so incredibly remote and delayed that it is equatable to being a far-off entitity perched up in space above the forum's surface mostly unresponsive of the day-to-day problems of the community, only finally hucking rocks at issues that have grown so big that they have finally become visible from up there.
rocks from space is considered a dysfunctional form of moderation because it is not proactive and it does not stop these conflagrations before they can blow over and inordinately harm the community. the moderation comes long after it would have been most effective. You end up with a forum historically beset by dramatic impacts and covered in craters. This is a problem with a lot of forums, actually! It is equivalent to a fire department that only sends out the firetrucks once an entire block is already on fire.
nerfdarts from space is when the 'unwillingness/reluctance to interfere' aspect of the moderation is so large as to mean that even the eventual response is usually very weak and ultimately ignorable by the vast majority of offenders, as if foam darts were tossed instead of rocks. The mod(s) just go 'i would feel so much better if I did not have to deal with these things!' and toss out light rebukes, but realistically the forum is ultimately still pretty much in the same position to repeat exactly what just happened again with the exact same offenders as before. It only works if 100% of the population is embarrassed into behaving afterwards simply for virtue of being slapped on the wrist only after having gone way way out of line.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I can't imagine it being more inflammatory than other stuff on the board.
I don't want to put Moose in an awkward position, and I don't want to talk about other people when they aren't prepared to offer their own version of events.
Besides, believe me, it doesn't matter. The most destructive force at Hatrack right now is people whining about Hatrack; the belief -- largely mistaken, IMO -- that we are somehow incapable of having respectful conversations anymore is the single biggest impediment to doing so. I don't want to perpetuate that myth in any way.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:The most destructive force at Hatrack right now is people whining about Hatrack
I am not sure that's correct!
But anyway I would love to hear the story anyway. If it's not a massive waste of time and brain cells, you could email it to me I guess. I kind of want to fit the whole story into my comprehensive nerd theses about why online communities falter and fail.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I'd appreciate being added to the CC list as well. I enjoy some good history Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I keep hearing about a time when Hatrack was this golden, different place. I started posting here a long time ago and I remember it being pretty much like this, though much less welcoming to non-Mormons (not unwelcoming exactly, but less). It may have felt "safer" and more congenial to some because it was more homogeneous. That is a pretty normal human feeling. We all tend to be more comfortable when there are more people "like us" around.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Yeah, CC me that memo, I've been wondering about that particular conversation for years.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I keep hearing about a time when Hatrack was this golden, different place. I started posting here a long time ago and I remember it being pretty much like this, though much less welcoming to non-Mormons (not unwelcoming exactly, but less). It may have felt "safer" and more congenial to some because it was more homogeneous. That is a pretty normal human feeling. We all tend to be more comfortable when there are more people "like us" around.
I know that you've said before that it was that way when you first joined (that was back in the Big Mouth Lion days, right?). I joined in '99, right after the switch to the current forum, and there was still a touch of what you're talking about, although it didn't seem too terrible to me. The period that I look back on as being the most congenial is a bit later--probably 2002-2003 or 2004. The site was pretty heterogeneous at that point, but was still a safe enough place for something like the landmark tradition to develop.
By the way, my touch of dyslexia struck with the phrase "nerfdarts from space". Transpose the "f" and the "d" in the first word and you get a very different thing.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: Personally, I have to agree with Armoth. I've been following Hatrack for four years but I don't feel apart of the community. I stick around because its a great place to easily catch up on news of interest to me (movies, tv shows, politics, science, etc.)
However, I don't feel free to participate more myself. I don't get many of the inside jokes and regarding a comment above, there's a feeling of hostility when a topic is discussed more than once as if people will never change their opinions and no new members have joined the forum. I also greatly admire the intelligent opinions of the posters who are older, more experience, more educated than myself but it feels like anyone who isn't an expert on a subject has an invalid opinion, particularly in the controversial/political/historical topics. Why is there so much hostility when there's so much potential for someone to educate and for another to learn?
I forgot to add the fact that major clickiness is felt when people don't even acknowledge your post.
Or when they tell stories about firsthand experiences with OSC and tell their friends that they will email them in private.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Yeah. I don't know about BML because I am not a computer person, but it was back in the last century. The congenial time was after I left because things were pretty hostile.
Hey! Maybe is it me?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: I forgot to add the fact that major clickiness is felt when people don't even acknowledge your post.
Do you acknowledge every post that you read and find worthwhile? I don't. It can be galling to put a lot of energy into a post and have it go unremarked, certainly, but you can generally console yourself with the knowledge that even if poeple don't respond to what you said directly, they read it, and it probably provoked some thought.
quote:Or when they tell stories about firsthand experiences with OSC and tell their friends that they will email them in private.
Oh, come on; that's a distortion of what's happening. Tom doesn't want to talk about something publicly. That's perfectly acceptable. After continued probing from another forum member, Tom told him that they could take it to email, and a number of people chimed in saying that they'd like to be cc:ed. Whether or not Tom will actually copy any of them on it I have no idea, but that doesn't really matter. If you want to know what the story is, you could request to be cc:ed too.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Hey! Maybe is it me?
Well, I didn't want to point any fingers, but....
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: I forgot to add the fact that major clickiness is felt when people don't even acknowledge your post.
Good thing that didn't happen here, huh?
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Or when they tell stories about firsthand experiences with OSC and tell their friends that they will email them in private.
Someone stopping you from going to an OSC booksigning?
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
Rivka, it was interesting that Shanna posted and no one acknowledged her point. You acknowledged me, but that's different - you happen to be one of the nicest members of Hatrack. I officially exempt you from this particular problem. Can you not see what I am saying re: the majority though?
Noemon - that isn't my point. Of course I don't expect people to respond to every post. But it's ironic that in a post about exclusion, you are barely acknowledged.
Hatrack IS cliquey - i appreciate some defensiveness, but it is incredibly hard to break through. The way I feel, is that my posts are less likely to be incorporated into the flow of the conversation. Now, that may be because of content - but I think I have noticed a pattern of cliquiness that makes it a bit stifling.
On the book signing thing - Oh c'mon. There was a thread about how cool you are based on how many degrees of separation there is from you to OSC. Are you really going to reply to my feelings of exclusion by saying that I have the same rights to go to a book signing as you do? Sadly, he does not often visit NY.
[ September 22, 2009, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Armoth ]
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Armoth: I'm just one person, but I stop and read your posts in threads whenever I find them, especially the Jewish ones. Can't say I do the same for everybody else.
Recognize that while few may actually respond to your point, many people you don't see read them. I've had quite a few posts where I felt very much like my back was against a wall and several posters were eating me for breakfast, I got several emails from lurkers who said the appreciated my thoughts.
Don't sweat it buddy.
Now with that, I really need to get back to work.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Hatrack IS clicky
Until now I had no idea that you guys were saying 'cliquey'
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
:-) thanks BB
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Hatrack IS clicky
Until now I had no idea that you guys were saying 'cliquey'
Oh wow. That's embarrassing. Oops!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:There was a thread about how cool you are based on how many degrees of separation there is from you to OSC.
For the record, no one took that seriously. The Hatrack I know and love measures degrees of separation from a different population. And it's measured as a boolean value, not an integer. Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Hatrack IS cliquey - i appreciate some defensiveness, but it is incredibly hard to break through. The way I feel, is that my posts are less likely to be incorporated into the flow of the conversation. Now, that may be because of content - but I think I have noticed a pattern of cliquiness that makes it a bit stifling.
Hey I posted something on the last page and no one responded to me. It happens all the time Armoth. And it's happened ever since I can remember being at hatrack...even in THE GOLDEN YEARS. posts don't get replied to for all sorts of reasons, and most of them aren't personal.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, some times it's personal. I mean, I never reply to anything you post, Strider. Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
Tom replied to me!!!
I'm calling my mother.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
Ok. I came of whinny and I didn't mean to do that.
I know that people don't always respond to every post, and it is definitely not personal.
But be honest. If you see BB, Rivka, Tom Davidson, Samprimary - you're gonna be a bit more careful to stop and read than when you see a name that hasn't posted 7000 times.
I came off bitter, and I didn't mean to. Actually, I think I did, so I guess I just regret it. All I want to do is suggest a possibility to help our community grow. Keep it in mind, be more sensitive to the new people, and maybe bring in some new blood that will help the community thrive.
For me, it isn't just the information here that is valuable. The arguments of gay marriage can easily be researched online. The proofs against God are all on Wikipedia.
But what has been valuable here to me is that I've learned how deeply hurt gay people are and how excluded they feel because the institution of marriage is denied to them. I took that for granted in my opinions, and did not even give it the time of day. The discussions here, because people inserted their specific personalities, really helped reform my opinion.
I learned that atheists are not all a bunch of defensive elitist intellectuals, disparaging religion to relieve their own insecurities, but that they are regular people who reach their conclusions after admirable serious thought.
Hatrack, has been an experience of tremendous unity. Ideology is one thing, but the personalities that are attached and the subsequent empathy and understanding allow us to unite despite our beliefs.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Are you really going to reply to my feelings of exclusion by saying that I have the same rights to go to a book signing as you do? Sadly, he does not often visit NY.
If you are going to take seriously anyone who claims coolness because they have met OSC, then yes. Note Tom's response.
And people have made multi-hour, and even multi-day, roadtrips to go to his booksignings. (Not me. But people! ) "He never comes to my state" just doesn't cut it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Strider: Tom replied to me!!!
I'm calling my mother.
Why would Tom be afraid of her?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You've obviously never met his mother.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Have you met Tom?
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Are you really going to reply to my feelings of exclusion by saying that I have the same rights to go to a book signing as you do? Sadly, he does not often visit NY.
If you are going to take seriously anyone who claims coolness because they have met OSC, then yes. Note Tom's response.
And people have made multi-hour, and even multi-day, roadtrips to go to his booksignings. (Not me. But people! ) "He never comes to my state" just doesn't cut it.
While they weren't taken seriously, jokes can be exclusionary. I honestly know you don't measure people based on how close they are to OSC, but somoene who is new to the site, doesn't know who has met him or corresponded with him (and hasn't themselves), you can feel pretty excluded.
And I still think it's pretty silly that the way you are responding to the way I was feeling is by telling me that I can meet OSC too.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Armoth, you've made some interesting points about the vibe here.
FWIW, I think that there are a couple of factors in what generates a specific response to a post.
In order of decreasing importance, IMO: 1) How provocative the post is. (The sad truth that trolls everywhere have discovered is that you CAN get attention by deliberately provoking people. And it's a lot safer to do online than at the corner bar. Aside from pure trolls, some people train to make their posts pointier. This might correlate negatively with how "chill" the place is.)
2) Whether the post directly invites responses, or asks questions of individuals.
3) Whether the post introduces something novel to the conversation.
4) How many friends are reading or whether you belong to the right clique. (I do think this has an effect, but it's way down on my list.)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: And I still think it's pretty silly that the way you are responding to the way I was feeling is by telling me that I can meet OSC too.
Tom has already covered the fact that it was not serious. If you choose to take it seriously anyway, there's really only one way to do something about it.
I'd have to go find the thread to be sure, but I'm fairly certain there were several responses from people who have never met OSC and made jokes about that.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
for me, real life got in the way. A 50 hour work week and a girlfriend take up quite a bit of my time.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Armoth, I think you do make some decent points. I do think that we should bear in mind how we welcome newcomers. I also think that newcomers need to bear in mind that people who have "been around" long enough to form relationships aren't going to pretend those relationships don't exist. Just as if you were going to a party where some of the other people knew each other, newcomers an effort should be made to be welcoming but newcomers shouldn't expect to be the center of attention right away. It takes some accomodation on both sides of the equation. For example, before launching a new thread to express opinions on a controversial subject, it might make sense to see what has already been written.
Posted by Godric 2.0 (Member # 11443) on :
quote:Originally posted by Strider: Hey I posted something on the last page and no one responded to me. It happens all the time Armoth. And it's happened ever since I can remember being at hatrack...even in THE GOLDEN YEARS. posts don't get replied to for all sorts of reasons, and most of them aren't personal.
Darn it! I was going to ignore this post, but I see Tom already did... Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:Rivka, it was interesting that Shanna posted and no one acknowledged her point
I actually responded to her in the very next post.
quote:I don't want to put Moose in an awkward position, and I don't want to talk about other people when they aren't prepared to offer their own version of events.
Besides, believe me, it doesn't matter. The most destructive force at Hatrack right now is people whining about Hatrack; the belief -- largely mistaken, IMO -- that we are somehow incapable of having respectful conversations anymore is the single biggest impediment to doing so. I don't want to perpetuate that myth in any way.
I think it's fine to choose not to tell a story, and maybe to tell one person privately in an e-mail when they're the only one who cares. I think it's a bit arbitrary to tell one person because they asked first or to tell 5 people in an e-mail but not just go ahead and post it. (You may have since chosen to not to e-mail anyone, and I think that would be fair).
Your second point (that it's not really that bad here), I agree with. (Assuming I'm interpreting you correctly). Honestly the atmosphere at the forum here is identical to most forums out there and is still better than most. I know it's frustrating if you guys were a truly amazingly supportive place where people went out of their way to say kind words all the time, and now the atmosphere is just "average," but there are worse things that could be happening.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
Would everyone please stop ignoring my posts? All this non-attention is overwhelming.
Pfft. That's not scary.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
I never implied she was scary. That's just like your own subjective interpretation of events. I can't control your mind.
Or can I....
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Strider: I never implied she was scary.
No. Noem did.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
quote:Rivka, it was interesting that Shanna posted and no one acknowledged her point
I actually responded to her in the very next post.
You're right. I apologize, i totally missed that.
Posted by Godric 2.0 (Member # 11443) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
quote:Rivka, it was interesting that Shanna posted and no one acknowledged her point
I actually responded to her in the very next post.
I ignored that post, so it doesn't count. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:You may have since chosen to not to e-mail anyone, and I think that would be fair.
So far, no one has contacted me by email.
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
This has been a very calm discussion from my point of view, especially considering some earlier points mentioned fights and snide remarks.
As a new member (it'll be a year in November), I can definitely relate to some of the points mentioned by Armoth, Shanna and someone else whose name escapes me at the moment. I completely understand that any newcomer to a forum or to a honest to goodness real life party is going to encounter a similar reaction and transition period, but that doesn't mean it makes it any easier to hopefully infuse yourself into the community with time. As kmbboots said, it takes accommodations on both sides. And so...
I know that anytime someone responds kindly to a post I've made, it tickles me pink. I read through a great number of the threads as they appear and have come to respect quite a few of you in how you do manage to put together thoughtful and respectful comments. What is off-putting is when a veteran makes one of those ambiguous comments that could either be in jest or could be a barbed comment, and since I don't know them, my own initial reaction is to interpret it the second way. Personality flaw? Maybe. However, if it's not too much to expect, if you haven't formed a repertoire with a person yet, can you maybe fill us in on the fact you're just kidding and trying to include us in the banter? I'm all for banter; it's just difficult to interpret the spirit when you don't know someone well.
Like, here's a little idiosyncrasy of mine that you all just haven't had time to pick up on: I rarely abbreviate anything, particularly things that could be shortened when sending a text message or a quick response in a forum such as this. Sometimes I'll start to do so and then compulsion hits me to type it all out. Yet, with some other online friends through my LJ, for instance, this is well known due to our history, and it gets joked about among many other things.
When I first created an account here, it was after reading a lot of threads that came up as the result of searches, so many of them were topics that were of first interest to me. I could sense the comradery in them. I was looking forward to that. Instead, I've felt misunderstood or attacked more often (though it's a close count) than I've felt welcome. I guess that's all to say that I'd rather be treated as a newcomer without all the expectations of a long time member and poster.
Just some additional newbie thoughts for you.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Traceria, You have some excellent points. Even though I'm far from new here, I've never really been part of any of the cliques so I tend to miss inside jokes too. I have the same tendency to interpret playful banter as barbs. I'm not sure I've always done that but I know that as the environment has grown more hostile I have become more likely to see venom in peoples posts rather than playfulness. In real life, we know its rude to make too many inside jokes in a gathering where not everyone is an insider. Its common manners and perhaps we old timers need to consider that more as we interact.
I'd hate to think any newbie would need to read through 10 years of the forum before jumping in. We should be able to accommodate new people with out expecting them to research the entire history. But I do think it would be advisable for newbies to participate in a number of threads before starting a new one. It gives us a chance to get to know you on more neutral territory. When starting a new thread, its very easy for a newbie to step on a land mine they weren't expecting. If we've already got a chance to know your style, we more likely to presume ignorance when that happens rather than deliberate trolling.
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
Thanks for responding, Rabbit. Unlike Strider, I'll refrain from calling my mom.
Seriously, though, I appreciate some of the constructive discussion taking place here. It's really opened my eyes to the other side of the coin and helped to see that a little give and take from all involved parties could work toward a better atmostphere.
Having been around long enough to witness a few trolling incidents, I can see why having some unknown person posting for the first time would cause a few eyebrows to go up. There should be a sort of disclaimer that pops up when someone first registers: If you'd like a smoother welcome to the forum, try reading and commenting on some other threads first. Or, if you can't hold your excitement in, put up an honest to goodness introduction post about yourself. (only half kidding)
(edited for clarity)
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Traceria: Or, if you can't hold your excitement in, put up an honest to goodness introduction post about yourself. (only half kidding) (edited for clarity)
Introduction posts are great. It's always nice getting a feel for a new member as a person.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Oh, agreed. I love "hi there, I'm new!" posts.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:There should be a sort of disclaimer that pops up when someone first registers: If you'd like a smoother welcome to the forum, try reading and commenting on some other threads first. Or, if you can't hold your excitement in, put up an honest to goodness introduction post about yourself. (only half kidding)
I actually think thats a great idea. Maybe not precisely that wording but it would be great if there was something like that. You register, and get a hints for fitting in at hatrack.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Here is a start on a message for newbies. Please suggest changes, addition, or deletions. If we polish it up, perhaps we can get this actually integrated into the site. I'll work on a series of reminders for old timers as well.
quote:Hints for Newbies:
Welcome to Hatrack, we’re always glad to have newcomers here and hope you will become an active part of our community. Hatrack is a little different from many places on the internet. Here are some hints that will help you fit in.
1. At Hatrack, our motto is to speak with passion but listen with respect. We try to avoid the flame wars and personal attacks that are common on other internet sites. If you are accustomed other forums, you may find you need to tone down your style to fit in at Hatrack. While we don’t always succeed, our goal is civil discourse. Think of this as a dinner party with friends not a battle ground.
2. The Hatrack forum is more than a decade old and we have many members who have been around that long. Many of our members have met in real life, have become close friends and even married. While we welcome newbies, it may take you a while to become fully integrated in the community. Be patient. Feel free to introduce yourself in a new thread. Read and post in a number of threads before trying to start a new discussion thread. This will give old members a chance to get to know you and your style on neutral ground. If we seem to be using too many inside jokes, ask for an explanation. Don’t give up if your first posts get few or even no responses. That happens even to the old timers at times.
3. Hatrack has many members who are religiously conservative. You don’t need to agree with them, in fact disagreement on religion is an integral part of Hatrack, but we expect respectful behavior.
4. You may find that language which is common in your social group is considered obscene or profane at Hatrack. Our host has asked that we refrain from obscene and profane language and we ask that you respect that. Find ways to express yourself that don’t include language your grandmother would have considered offensive.
5. We have a lot of members from across the religious and political spectrum. If you are used to participating in one sided political or religious forums, be prepared to have your views challenged and questioned. We hope Hatrack is a place where people of opposing views can come in order to better understand each other. If you treat those who disagree with you as the faithful opposition rather than enemies to be defeated you will have a much better chance of being accepted in the community.
6. Unfortunately, discussion at Hatrack hasn’t and doesn’t always remain civil. You may come across a variety of landmines. Certain controversial topics (abortion, Israel, homosexuality, religion etc.) have been beaten nearly to death over the years. Very few things are off limits for discussion, but it is wise to get the lay of the land before starting or jumping into a discussion on a highly controversial subject.
7. There are a couple of behaviors that are likely to land you in trouble at Hatrack.
a. Deleting threads. You can edit and delete your posts, but be careful. If you delete the opening post in a thread, it deletes the entire thread, which will offend a lot of people. If you delete too many things it can actually crash the forum. Deleting posts after others have responded to them can be really confusing. If a post has been up for very long, it is polite to note that it has been edited (or removed) and why.
b) Garbled English. Hatrack Forum attracts a very literate crowd. We don’t expect perfect English or spelling and we try to be very accommodating to those who aren’t native English speakers, but lazy garbled English is likely to draw criticism. We also don’t like excessive internet short hand except as a joke. All caps or all lower case posts are irritating.
That’s a long list, I hope it hasn’t intimidated you. You are truly welcome here and we want you to enjoy the forum. Over the years, many of us have found Hatrack to be a stimulating, friendly, accepting amazing community. We hope you do too.
[ September 23, 2009, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posted by Godric 2.0 (Member # 11443) on :
Didn't we used to have a message like this that got bumped or posted in the "I'm new" threads? Is that what this is or is this something new?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
That is a pretty good list, Rabbit, but I worry that it'll have a couple of side effects:
1) Intimidate people who show up with good intentions but aren't looking to start a project (in this case the project is "be accepted by the community")
2) Provide a handy list of buttons to trolls or miscreants. (I think there will be a few people who say to themselves "Crash the forum? Really? I have got to try that..." and more who say "Oh, look - they're sensitive here! Where are my sturdy trolling shoes?")
I would like it if there was a way to require moderator approval to post a new thread if your post count is lower than X.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: That is a pretty good list, Rabbit, but I worry that it'll have a couple of side effects:
1) Intimidate people who show up with good intentions but aren't looking to start a project (in this case the project is "be accepted by the community")
I'm not sure what the best way is to address this. Maybe it would be better if the list was in a Topic "Hints for Newbies" that was permanantly stickied at the top of the forum rather than a pop up note for everyone who registered.
quote:2) Provide a handy list of buttons to trolls or miscreants. (I think there will be a few people who say to themselves "Crash the forum? Really? I have got to try that..." and more who say "Oh, look - they're sensitive here! Where are my sturdy trolling shoes?")
I see your point. It would be best to leave out the part about crashing the forum. The list of controversial topics is probably unneeded. Saying "controversial topics" or "controversial political and religious topics" would most likely be adequate and less likely to be seen as a list of buttons to push.
Perhaps posting such a list at all would require more active moderation to prevent trolling.
quote:I would like it if there was a way to require moderator approval to post a new thread if your post count is lower than X.
Great suggestion.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Here is a start on reminders for forum regulars.
quote:Reminders for forum regulars:
1. At Hatrack, our motto is to speak with passion but listen with respect. Please avoid making personal attacks and getting involved in flame wars. Remember that our goal is civil discourse. Treat Hatrack as if it is a dinner party with friends not a battle ground.
2. Create a welcoming atmosphere to newbies. Many of us have been around a long time and know each other well, but new members are what keep the forum alive and vibrant. Make an effort to respond to new posters. Inside jokes may be inevitable, but try not to make things too foreign to new comers. Offer explanations and links to old threads to help newbies feel at home.
3. Try to avoid the landmines. You’ve been around long enough to know what things are certain to cause a fight and how to provoke certain people. Avoid doing it.
4. Good manners are not equivalent to self censorship. There are polite ways to disagree and there are polite ways to express most every opinion. Try to find those ways.
5. Treating people with respect often means apologizing, revising, and editing. Admitting it when you were wrong is often necessary to maintain the community health.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
I think it's pretty good.
(I'm not the biggest fan of "Israel" in the controversial topic examples).
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: (I'm not the biggest fan of "Israel" in the controversial topic examples).
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Israel has unquestionably been a controversial and often extremely nastily controversial topic at hatrack. We've had more locked threads on that topic than any other and possibly every other topic hear.
If you find that unfortunate, I whole heartedly agree but it is an unfortnate truth around here. Israel is certainly a land mine around here that new people can easily stumble into innocently. I really wish we could have civil discussion about Israel here and would not want to have the topic banned. But the fact is we haven't been able to have a civil discussion on Israel for several years and I don't see that changing unless certain people leave.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
I don't mean that it isn't uncontroversial. I just prefer it isn't mentioned. You can ignore that request, I'm not requesting it vehemently. I just winced when i read it, that's all.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: I don't mean that it isn't uncontroversial. I just prefer it isn't mentioned. You can ignore that request, I'm not requesting it vehemently. I just winced when i read it, that's all.
I'd already agreed that having a list at all was a bad idea so I don't have any problem with that request.
I am curious about why you'd prefer that topic in particular not be mentioned. Why does mentioning that Israel has become a topic we can't discuss civilly make you wince?
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
I don't know myself. before I sat to respond to your last post I tried to figure it out and I couldn't come up with anything concrete.
Maybe I'm sad that that's true? Maybe I wish the issue were more clear cut and it's painful that it's not?
Maybe because the mention of it as an uncontroversial topic makes me feel a bit unwelcome because many people here might disagree with my views? (If that is true, it is an unconscious belief)
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Maybe its because Israel is a country to you and a source of some controversy, while to others it is essentially encapsulated as a controversy first and foremost.
Imagine if the list included "The United States," due to constant debates on its use of torture and that was the main reason why the topic came up ever. There would probably be some indignation that the US was so pegged, for lack of a better word.
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
I like the idea of having a permanently stickied "Hints for Newbies" topic. If someone is concerned about having a smoother get-to-know period, they'll read it.
As to what that stickied topic should include, your initial proposal along with some of the suggestions from scibum and Armoth is a good place to start. I'm absolutely horrible at trying to edit (in the shortening sense) stuff, but I would suggest getting someone to take a red pen to it to make it more concise and general so that it is more a set of basic guidelines than a lot of specifics. I hope that makes sense.
Truly, I'm really terrible at that kind of thing, so I'm hoping someone can step up and help to turn out a really straight forward and concise set of hints. Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Thanks, The Rabbit for putting all of that together. It looks good to me. My only thought is that I am not so much bothered by people joining into controversial subjects - I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from that. I just want people to recognize that we are not starting from scratch on them. Maybe links to some old key threads would save having to go over what for some is old ground. Although that is not such a bad thing, we can lose patience with it.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Perhaps it needs rewording. I'm not bothered by newbies joining into controversial subjects, I simply think they should be given fair warning.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:3. Hatrack has many members who are religiously conservative. You don’t need to agree with them, in fact disagreement on religion is an integral part of Hatrack, but we expect respectful behavior.
I wouldn't single our religious conservatives, as there's plenty of religious liberals and athiests too - I'd just say there are many members who hold strong religious convictions. It could also mention that people probably shouldn't go into a discussion thinking they'll change someone's religious views or convert them.
Actually, as a more general rule, I'd think its a good idea not to go into an controversial conversation thinking you are going to change the minds of everyone on the other side. People should assume other posters have thought out their positions, and should not be offended or surprised if what one person thinks is an indisputable argument fails to convince others. Especially when it comes to "landmine" topics.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
I was going to say what Tres said about #3. I think you cover it in #5 anyway.
I think something recommending that they do an introduction thread, or even sticking a permanent newbie introduction thread at the top, would be nice too.
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