I started a similar thread on the Lord of the Rings forums, and had great success and fun with it. Basically, what is something that really wowed you, something that really amazed you.
I've come across mine in a few books in various ways, although they all express the same thing.
Two such forms of my favorite concept are:
1.) The leader of the society must throw himself off a balcony, committing his life to his citizens, in that if they catch him he knows he's upholding their interests.
2.) The leader of the society must walk through a street blindfolded with no security, while every citizen is given a knife. If he makes it through this trial alive, he knows he's a good leader.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Ick. Setting aside the fact that there will always be crazies (unless you're evil enough to execute them all, I guess), I don't like the idea that how good a leader is can be measured by their popularity at any point in time.
Posted by Prescient Twin (Member # 12210) on :
To accept the concept you also have to accept the fairytale that the people are knowledgeable enough to know the leader's worth to them.
It just so happens that my favorite concept is susceptible to the imperfections of modern day society.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Best idea I've seen in a book?
A full explanation of how to play sabacc, a fictional card game in the Star Wars universe that Han Solo used to win the Millennium Falcon from Lando Calrissian. AC Crispin explained it in full in the Han Solo trilogy, and I've tried playing it a couple times on different websites with poorly constructed versions of the game.
I'm convinced that it would be the most popular card game in the world if it ever made it into mass production.
Posted by Prescient Twin (Member # 12210) on :
Any idea from Star Wars could arguably be the best idea ever.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Midichlorians.
Han Magically Dodges and Shoots Last.
Ewoks.
Jar-Jar.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Really, I never understood all the hate for midichlorians.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It makes being a Jedi less about a concept anyone could learn, or almost anyone, and more about genetics.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
That's what it always was! Did you miss Luke's whole "the Force is strong in my family" speech? Luke was strong in the Force because his father was. Leia was the last hope for the Alliance if Luke failed because she was also of the Skywalker bloodline. Han, for instance, could never learn to be a jedi because he wasn't born with the innate ability. So the original trilogy had already established that Force powers are rare and hereditary.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
The Star Wars universe has been treating access to the Force as requiring specific inborn talent for a long time. Episode I merely gave that access a name.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Exactly.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:It makes being a Jedi less about a concept anyone could learn, or almost anyone, and more about genetics.
Nope, that's not it.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I'll also remind people that midi-chlorians do not "give" you the force. Midi-chlorians just grow more numerous in people with high force sensitivity. They are an indicator, not the cause.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I would like a daemon. I think that is a cool concept from Philip Pullman including Dust. There's others, I'll have to think of them. They probably come from Neil Gaiman. I love him.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
I'm not sure if it's my absolute favorite, but zombies rank pretty high up there. They're such a fantastic vehicle.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I've said this elsewhere, but I've never understood the appeal of zombies.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Which is why you'll be the first to go when Z Day arrives.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: I'm not sure if it's my absolute favorite, but zombies rank pretty high up there. They're such a fantastic vehicle.
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I'll also remind people that midi-chlorians do not "give" you the force. Midi-chlorians just grow more numerous in people with high force sensitivity. They are an indicator, not the cause.
Making them essentially useless. Why even bother having a "force count" err "midichlorians?" You basically have a machine tell you exactly how good you can become as far as your force training is concerned. The midichlorians were unnecessary.
The force isn't necessarily genetic, Anakin's mother and father are not mentioned as having the force (At least I'm pretty sure that's the case).
-------
As for favorite concepts in a book Harry Potter's Magic as a subject that can be studied in school was just so fun and fantastic I finished every book wishing I could visit his world.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
I had to pick one author whose concepts I've found the most intriguing, it would be, hands down, Ted Chiang (there are links to some of his short stories in his wiki). One of my favorites is his story of a world similar to ours, except that it is simple fact that a God (roughly similar to the one depicted in the Old Testament) exists and causes bad things and good things to happen to people. Then there's the story about a linguist learning to communicate with visiting aliens, and the effect that learning the language has on her mental perceptions (basically, what if the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis were true?) Fascinating stuff, and highly recommended.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:Making them essentially useless. Why even bother having a "force count" err "midichlorians?" You basically have a machine tell you exactly how good you can become as far as your force training is concerned. The midichlorians were unnecessary.
The force isn't necessarily genetic, Anakin's mother and father are not mentioned as having the force (At least I'm pretty sure that's the case).
Again, the extended universe pretty much established everything you're complaining about - force-sensing machines and all - years before Episode I did. I suppose we could get into an argument over what constitutes canon, and what doesn't, but my point is that the concepts aren't new, and especially among the more hardcore fanbase, shouldn't come as a surprise.
___
Noemon, Here ya go. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jhai: Then there's the story about a linguist learning to communicate with visiting aliens, and the effect that learning the language has on her mental perceptions (basically, what if the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis were true?) Fascinating stuff, and highly recommended.
Have you read Samuel R. Delaney's Babel-17? It's another one that explores the ramifications of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. It's well worth reading if you haven't come across it.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I really like time stasis fields from Niven's known space. They make an object infinitely hard and impermeable. You could build frictionless engines that way.
Also room temperature superconductors. And Ringworlds. Oh and stepping disks like on the Puppeteer home planet. So you can walk in a few minutes to anywhere on the planet. And those time-stasis spaceship hulls are pretty cool too.
Using generated gravity as an art form, a la the planet Kobold in Niven's Protector. That was the coolest place! I loved the waterfall that fell smoothly both ways from the big donut planet to the spherical one balanced in the middle of the donut hole. So you could easily swim from one to the other.
I love the whole idea of having genius adult forms of humanity who protect the rest of us, though the battles between bloodlines were no good. I would like to make the transition to Protector. I want to know all the things I'm not smart enough to realize now, and I want to live for thousands of years.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
I haven't come across it before, Noemon. Thanks!
Edit: the wiki entry for Babel-17 lists several other books & stories that play with the concept, for anyone interested.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jhai: I had to pick one author whose concepts I've found the most intriguing, it would be, hands down, Ted Chiang (there are links to some of his short stories in his wiki). One of my favorites is his story of a world similar to ours, except that it is simple fact that a God (roughly similar to the one depicted in the Old Testament) exists and causes bad things and good things to happen to people. Then there's the story about a linguist learning to communicate with visiting aliens, and the effect that learning the language has on her mental perceptions (basically, what if the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis were true?) Fascinating stuff, and highly recommended.
Those are "Hell is the Absence of God" and "Story of your Life", respectively.
Two more fun ones by him are "Tower of Babylon" and "Merchant and the Alchemist's Gate".
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I like the Tower of Babylon story by Ted Chiang.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
The Merchant and the Alchemist's Gate was definitely a good one.
I don't know if it's my favorite, but I liked the idea of the Melding Plague in Alastair Reynolds' books. In a far future, where nanotech implants in the brain and body are commonplace, a plague arose that develops only in the nanotech implants and spreads to the rest of the natural body. Those without nano-implants are immune.
Posted by Ecthalion (Member # 8825) on :
i do enjoy the concept of shadow walking from Roger Zelazney's Amber series.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jhai: I haven't come across it before, Noemon. Thanks!
Sure!
A technology that I find myself wishing for a lot is that of the nullentropy bins from the the later "real" Dune books. It isn't flashy or anything, but man would it be nice. The alternate universe gate in S.M. Stirling's Conquistador would be fantastic to have too. Neither of these things wowed or amazed me, but I'd love to have both of them.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I'll also remind people that midi-chlorians do not "give" you the force. Midi-chlorians just grow more numerous in people with high force sensitivity. They are an indicator, not the cause.
Making them essentially useless. Why even bother having a "force count" err "midichlorians?" You basically have a machine tell you exactly how good you can become as far as your force training is concerned. The midichlorians were unnecessary.
The force isn't necessarily genetic, Anakin's mother and father are not mentioned as having the force (At least I'm pretty sure that's the case).
It's strongly implied that Anakin's was conceived by the Force itself. But yes, a Force sensitive individual can have non-Force sensitive parents. Such is true for many genetic traits.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:i do enjoy the concept of shadow walking from Roger Zelazney's Amber series.
That was fascinating and disturbing.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ecthalion: i do enjoy the concept of shadow walking from Roger Zelazney's Amber series.
Me too. Although I think I'll stay on Earth for a while...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
They're all earth...
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
One of my favorite ideas is from the Hyperion series by Dan Simmons--
SPOILER if you haven't read the original Hyperion, and an additional (thought not as big) spoiler if you haven't read Endymion * * * * * * * * * * *
the Resurrection Creches. Once you accept the conceit of the cruciform in the first place, it is a completely amazing direction to take, a mind-blowing extrapolation of the concept of biologically-assisted resurrection.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
My favorite concept from a book is that Gods are created by the belief of people. It's all over the place. OSC's Enchantment, Tom Robbins, Neil Gaiman, Terry Pratchett, Douglas Adams. Is there a formal term for it?
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by Leonide: One of my favorite ideas is from the Hyperion series by Dan Simmons--
Ah, that reminded me of another one. I was fascinated by Merlin's Sickness. I know this isn't an original concept, but it's the first place I encountered it.
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
In Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series, a good king must personally execute the prisoners he condemned to death so he may appreciate the true cost of his judgments.
*Buffy series spoiler* . . .
I also really liked Willow's final spell in the last episode of Buffy. It turned the traditional "chosen one" mythology on its head, and it is consistent with the positive self-empowerment message that has been a trademark of the Buffy series.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Corwin:
quote:Originally posted by Ecthalion: i do enjoy the concept of shadow walking from Roger Zelazney's Amber series.
Me too. Although I think I'll stay on Earth for a while...
Is your username taken from the hero of said books?
I really liked the scale of the Amber cosmology... it's one of the few modern books to show you the universe from the gods perspective. The deaths of hundreds of thousands of soldiers he manipulated into worshiping him doesn't so much as faze Corwin, yet he feels very strong emotions for individual mortals he's made the acquaintance of, for example... something that seems terrible, but also very natural for an immortal being.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Lightsabers are the best thing for a sci-fi fantasy movie because they make melee weapons not only relevant but ridiculously awesome in a world full of also awesome energy weapons.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: They're all earth...
Actually, they're all Amber.
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath:
quote:Originally posted by Corwin:
quote:Originally posted by Ecthalion: i do enjoy the concept of shadow walking from Roger Zelazney's Amber series.
Me too. Although I think I'll stay on Earth for a while...
Is your username taken from the hero of said books?
Yeap.
quote: The deaths of hundreds of thousands of soldiers he manipulated into worshiping him doesn't so much as faze Corwin
He says something like "the sad truth is that we were their gods and that was that", but yeah, at that time he still thinks it's all worth it for him and doesn't think too much about whether it's worth it for the soldiers.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Corwin is very much a Zelazny hero -- an evil bastard with godlike powers who just happens to be not *quite* as evil and bastardly as those he's fighting against.
quote:In Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series, a good king must personally execute the prisoners he condemned to death so he may appreciate the true cost of his judgments.
That has resonated with us since we started living a lifestyle where we're able to raise (and kill) all of our own meat.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Every time Porter kills a goat, he first sentences it to death in a kangaroo court. Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
That would totally make me into a strict vegetarian, I bet. As of now, I still eat meat occasionally though I can't imagine killing and cooking and eating an animal I had fed and cared for. I'm a hypocrite when it comes to meat eating. I mostly to stick to my vegan diet at home but when people invite me over and feed me, I eat whatever they're serving. But I know that if I knew the animal personally, I couldn't do that. Is it hard for you?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: Is it hard for you?
The first time I killed an animal to eat it, it was hard. Not traumatic, but difficult. Especially because I really loved that kid.
But you know, I really appreciated that meat in a way I never had before.
As Pi Patel teaches, you can get used to anything.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: [QB]
quote: Is it hard for you?
The first time I killed an animal to eat it, it was hard. Not traumatic, but difficult. Especially because I really loved that kid.
I don't know if I've mentioned it, but I really respect what you and bev have done in terms of the farm in general, the slaughtering of your own livestock, and raising what promise to be very self sufficient children on that farm. I'm really glad that your circumstances were such that it's something that you could do, and that bev pushed to make it happen.
As you and I have discussed, I feel like I should kill an animal at least once, given that I eat them. I don't know what would happen after that in terms of my meat consumption, honestly.
I don't think that I could kill a creature that I loved for food, though, unless I was starving (and even then I'd feel quite a bit of regret). How is it that you don't feel guilt about it, given that you loved the kid? I realize that the question could sound accusatory or judging, but I hope you know me well enough to know that it's not; I really am just curious.
Do you feel like slaughtering your own livestock on a regular basis has changed you? Do you feel like all of the changes are for the better? These are pretty personal questions for 2009 Hatrack, so if you'd rather answer them off forum (or not at all) I completely understand.
quote:But you know, I really appreciated that meat in a way I never had before.
I can imagine.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:As you and I have discussed, I feel like I should kill an animal at least once, given that I eat them.
I think this is something that every meat-eater should do.
quote:I don't think that I could kill a creature that I loved for food, though, unless I was starving (and even then I'd feel quite a bit of regret). How is it that you don't feel guilt about it, given that you loved the kid?
That goat existed for one purpose only, and that was to be eaten. There's no reason for me to feel more guilty for killing and eating him than I do for killing (indirectly) and eating the hamburger I buy at a restaurant.
Quite a bit less, in fact. As far as meat-bound livestock is concerned, he had a very good life. He was happy, comfortable, and the end was quick and humane.
Me loving him did not in any way elevate him above the status of livestock, it just meant that he got some extra attention which made his life even better. It did not give me any obligations to him that I didn't already have.
quote:Do you feel like slaughtering your own livestock on a regular basis has changed you? Do you feel like all of the changes are for the better?
It hasn't changed me as much as it would some people. I've never been one to anthropomorphize critters and pretend that they're funny-shaped people or that they're part of the family.
But the changes that it has made have all been good ones. It's made me more aware of the cost of doing business as a practicing omnivore, which has helped make me more away of the CDB in the first world with a first world lifestyle. It's made me more appreciative and grateful for what we have.
And it's made it so that my dinners are tastier than they were before. Or at least they seem that way. Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I think calling it "anthropomorphizing" is actually the mistake, though I understand that I'm in the minority opinion on that so far. Like, animals, and mammals in particular, actually ARE anthropomorphic, just as we're felipomorphic or whatever, because we're all cousins. That's why we have so much in common, in other words. It's not something we have to pretend because it's just true. We had common ancestors something like sixty million years ago or less (with the mammals). That shows in many ways. We get along really well together, and understand each other well, etc.
I feel when I take care of an animal and feed and doctor it, that I'm acting as a parent to that animal, and by trusting me they're accepting me as a parent. So for me there's an implied contract with the animal that goes along with that. One that says I'll act in the animal's personal best interest, to the best of my ability. That contract is what I would feel horrible about breaking. I'm with Noemon that even if I were starving I don't know if I would be able to butcher and eat a beloved animal.
I see a real parallel between how Heavenly Father treats us, his children, and our relationship to other animal species. In both situations, there's one who is more powerful and intelligent, and they deign to show love to the lesser beings. I guess I would feel it was a betrayal both to the animal and to my Heavenly Father in whose stead I act toward the other animals, if I then slaughtered my child/beast/livestock and ate it.
I can't reconcile any of this with the fact that I've been a meat eater for most of my life, and still do eat meat upon occasion. I don't know the animals personally that I've eaten, but if I did, I know I would like them. That's why I do try to stay vegan. That plus the health and taste benefits. Food tastes better when you stop eating meat for some reason.
Obviously these ideas don't apply to people who don't feel as I do. I'm not saying that everyone should become vegetarian, though I obviously think it's a great idea for many reasons, including global warming. (Livestock emit more greenhouse gases than all the cars, planes, trains, ships, and buses combined.) I think everyone has to make their own moral choices about these things, and health choices as well. Some people may not do well on a strict vegetarian diet for health reasons.
Anyway, I appreciate you sharing your philosophy here. It gives me food for thought, so to speak, as I struggle to reconcile my various thoughts on the subject.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I feel when I take care of an animal and feed and doctor it, that I'm acting as a parent to that animal
That is the exact sort of anthropomorphizing that I was talking about.
When I take care of an animal, I am not taking on the role of a parent. Animals are not people. Now matter how much I love and care for a critter, I cannot have a parent-child relationship with an animal, and I do not pretend like I can.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
I've killed deer before while hunting, and had absolutely no problem with it - I actually felt better eating those deer than I would a hamburger, since I knew that deer lived a natural life in the wild, instead of being kept in a cage.
OTOH, like others here, if I had known the deer for 2 years, fed it, pet it, talked to it casually while I was working, given it a name... I don't know if I'd be able to kill it. It's not from any philosophy that makes me think it's wrong, it's just the gut "don't kill your friends" instinct, regardless of how silly I realize thinking of a food animal as a "friend" is. I suppose if I did it enough I'd get used to it.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I really feel like I ought to kill an animal now if I am going to continue eating meat, it's a novel sensation to read a Hatrack thread and feel like now there's something I ought to do.
I am endlessly fascinated with Porter and Bev's decision to have a farm and raise a family. I know it's strange, but I think about Porter and Bev's (and yet I've never met them) lifestyle at least once or twice a week doing completely unrelated things.
I also agree with the sentiment that when it comes to animals, it simply isn't the same relationship as a parent/child. When you own a cat and the cat really adores you it still does not identify you as a fellow cat it thinks of you as another animal that it really adores.
Dog's have no problems eating human carcasses when they get hungry enough, I don't see why it shouldn't work vice versa.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Dog's have no problems eating human carcasses when they get hungry enough
Dogs who would give their lives for the herd they guard will eat the carcass if one of the animals they guard dies. To anthropomorphize, they're just cleaning up.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
First thing off the top of my head: a minor backstory mention in one of Cory Doctorow's stories that explained how artificial intelligence began. Spambots were evolving to sound more human and thus get past the filters, filters were getting smarter to catch the spambots, and they continued in an intelligence arms race until AI was born.
In all my years of reading SF, this was the first explanation of AI that sounded plausible Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I really feel like I ought to kill an animal now if I am going to continue eating meat, it's a novel sensation to read a Hatrack thread and feel like now there's something I ought to do.
I'm not sure who is on which page, but I think it has to be noted that one should probably kill an animal that is at somewhat similar to the animals that one is going to eat, say the same family or the same order.
I note this because I don't think killing fish or crustaceans is going to have the same effect that people seem to be shooting for which is what one might get when killing a mammal.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I have hunted and have eaten what I've hunted. Oddly, I suspect I would feel differently -- and worse -- about eating a domesticated animal I'd raised from birth for the purpose, even though logic should suggest otherwise.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Has no one mentioned any Asimov contributions here? The 3 laws of robotics make for some pretty intriguing stories. Not to mention the concept of psychohistory.
Posted by Godric (Member # 4587) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I have hunted and have eaten what I've hunted. Oddly, I suspect I would feel differently -- and worse -- about eating a domesticated animal I'd raised from birth for the purpose, even though logic should suggest otherwise.
If your logic suggests otherwise, I think your logic has failed to account for emotional ties.
Logic is a tool, not a lifestyle (Vulcans be damned). It should account for or at least attempt to acknowledge the variables introduced in a situation where an emotional response is a part of the equation.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: First thing off the top of my head: a minor backstory mention in one of Cory Doctorow's stories that explained how artificial intelligence began. Spambots were evolving to sound more human and thus get past the filters, filters were getting smarter to catch the spambots, and they continued in an intelligence arms race until AI was born.
What story was that from? I read something similar in a story recently, but I don't think it was a Doctorow story.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: Has no one mentioned any Asimov contributions here? The 3 laws of robotics make for some pretty intriguing stories. Not to mention the concept of psychohistory.
Isaac Asimov: Here's a logic puzzle thinly disguised as a story. Reader: Hurray! THE END
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:As you and I have discussed, I feel like I should kill an animal at least once, given that I eat them.
I think this is something that every meat-eater should do.
I've thought about asking the farmer I often buy meat from at my local farmer's market if I could somehow participate in a slaugher, but I don't imagine that he'd say yes. I probably wouldn't, were I in his place. I'd be worried about someone who didn't know what they were doing causing my animal greater pain than was necessary. I'm not really sure how to go about acquiring this experience, honestly.
quote:
quote:I don't think that I could kill a creature that I loved for food, though, unless I was starving (and even then I'd feel quite a bit of regret). How is it that you don't feel guilt about it, given that you loved the kid?
That goat existed for one purpose only, and that was to be eaten. There's no reason for me to feel more guilty for killing and eating him than I do for killing (indirectly) and eating the hamburger I buy at a restaurant.
I don't dispute the fact that the goat died for the purpose that you bought or raised it for, but I disagree with the assertion that there's no reason for you to feel more guilty for killing and eating him than for eating a burger made from an animal that you didn't know. We feel a greater emotional response when a loved one dies than when we read in the paper about a stranger dying in a car accident. Similarly (not identically--I realize that there isn't a perfect equivalence here), I'd feel a greater emotional response to slaughtering a being I loved than I would while enjoying the fruits of a slaughter of a being that was a stranger to me.
quote:As far as meat-bound livestock is concerned, he had a very good life. He was happy, comfortable, and the end was quick and humane.
Very true. However, if I were the one who had loved the creature, I'd still feel guilty. I'd tell myself that in an attempt to rationalize away the guilt, but I'd still be feeling it. Note that I'm not arguing that you should have the same response as I would, or that my response is superior to yours.
quote:Me loving him did not in any way elevate him above the status of livestock
For me it would. Of course, if I were to continue raising livestock, I would necessarily do one of two things: either stop making emotional connections to animals that I would eventually be slaughtering or develop emotional callouses that would allow me to kill the ones I'd developed an emotional attachment to without guilt.
quote:I've never been one to anthropomorphize critters and pretend that they're funny-shaped people or that they're part of the family.
I don't think that I anthropomorphize animals, but I recognize that mammals, at least, have complex emotional lives. I suspect that birds do as well, but I don't feel like I can say that I know that they do. Do you consider that anthropomorphization?
quote:But the changes that it has made have all been good ones. It's made me more aware of the cost of doing business as a practicing omnivore, which has helped make me more away of the CDB in the first world with a first world lifestyle. It's made me more appreciative and grateful for what we have.
Very cool.
quote:And it's made it so that my dinners are tastier than they were before. Or at least they seem that way.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I think this is something that every meat-eater should do.
I said this too strongly before. I think that this is something that would be good for every meat eater to do.
We've actually had people ask to do that. We said yes.
We didn't have them do the actual killing, but they were part of the process of killing, cleaning, and butchering.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Similarly (not identically--I realize that there isn't a perfect equivalence here), I'd feel a greater emotional response to slaughtering a being I loved than I would while enjoying the fruits of a slaughter of a being that was a stranger to me.
Well, yeah, of course there's going to be a greater emotional reaction. But that doesn't translate to greater guilt. And even if it led to feeling greater guilt, I'd know that that was an irrational feeling, which would greatly ameliorate it.
quote:Of course, if I were to continue raising livestock, I would necessarily do one of two things: either stop making emotional connections to animals that I would eventually be slaughtering or develop emotional callouses that would allow me to kill the ones I'd developed an emotional attachment to without guilt.
I know people who do it both ways. "Never name something you're going to eat", as they say.
quote:I don't think that I anthropomorphize animals, but I recognize that mammals, at least, have complex emotional lives. I suspect that birds do as well, but I don't feel like I can say that I know that they do. Do you consider that anthropomorphization?
From what you said there, I can't tell. Not necessarily.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Similarly (not identically--I realize that there isn't a perfect equivalence here), I'd feel a greater emotional response to slaughtering a being I loved than I would while enjoying the fruits of a slaughter of a being that was a stranger to me.
Well, yeah, of course there's going to be a greater emotional reaction. But that doesn't translate to greater guilt.
For me it would.
quote:And even if it led to feeling greater guilt, I'd know that that was an irrational feeling, which would greatly ameliorate it.
Hm. I've never tried to rid myself of guilt by recognizing intellectually that it was an irrational feeling. I'm not sure that I could. If I could, it would certainly take a lot of effort on my part; just the act of realizing the irrationality of my feelings wouldn't mitigate the emotion for me, but it might get me on the track to doing so.
quote:I know people who do it both ways. "Never name something you're going to eat", as they say.
This was the approach my parents took when I was tiny (I can dimly remember our having cattle, but I don't remember our having them slaughtered). Before I was born, they had a calf that they just fell head over heels in love with, and they both carried guilt for having him slaughtered for years.
quote:
quote:I don't think that I anthropomorphize animals, but I recognize that mammals, at least, have complex emotional lives. I suspect that birds do as well, but I don't feel like I can say that I know that they do. Do you consider that anthropomorphization?
From what you said there, I can't tell. Not necessarily.
What further information would you need?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I've never tried to rid myself of guilt by recognizing intellectually that it was an irrational feeling. I'm not sure that I could. If I could, it would certainly take a lot of effort on my part; just the act of realizing the irrationality of my feelings wouldn't mitigate the emotion for me, but it might get me on the track to doing so.
For the most part when I say "Porter, it doesn't make sense for you to feel that way. Knock it off!", I listen and obey.
quote:What further information would you need?
I don't really know.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: For the most part, when I say "Porter, it doesn't make sense for you to feel that way. Knock it off!", I listen and obey.
That is pretty unusual, I think.
Um . . . I'm guessing the technique works less well when applied to family members? Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:That is pretty unusual, I think.
It sure seems to be.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Of course, it only works when I really do believe that the emotion doesn't make sense.
Posted by Xann. (Member # 11482) on :
And The Devil Will Drag You Under was the first book I read that had a "There is infinite worlds" idea to it. I still think that is one of my favorite concepts.
Posted by Prescient Twin (Member # 12210) on :
Someone earlier in the thread suggested the Nullentropy Capsules, having read the last two Dune books that was indeed an interesting concept.
Posted by daventor (Member # 11981) on :
The Graveyard Book- boy raised by ghosts; just one of those simple yet brilliant ideas.
The Wheel of Time series- saidin/saidar- magic having a male and female half. I'd never read this sort of thing before (not sure that I have since either), but I really like the idea.
Brandon Sanderson's also really good for interesting concepts: Mistborn: allomancy- great and original, detailed magic system that makes for the coolest action scenes I've ever read in a novel. Mistborn: SPOILERS-IF YOU PLAN ON READING THE NOVELS DO NOT READ AHEAD - - - - - - - The villain of the series actually alters all the written "Chosen One" prophecies of the world, thus manipulating the heroes into setting him free; dang, that was an awesome twist-ending to book two! - - - - -
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: I've thought about asking the farmer I often buy meat from at my local farmer's market if I could somehow participate in a slaugher, but I don't imagine that he'd say yes. I probably wouldn't, were I in his place. I'd be worried about someone who didn't know what they were doing causing my animal greater pain than was necessary. I'm not really sure how to go about acquiring this experience, honestly.
While taking a rural ministry immersion class I toured a pork packing plant/slaughterhouse. We didn't actually do anything to contribute to the killing, but we did wade through pig blood (in our plastic bootie covered shoes) and almost got knocked over by flash-chilled hanging pig carcasses traveling at high speed.
Oddly, that experience put me much less off eating pork than sitting in on an autopsy during my chaplancy internship (The ribs! Oh, the ribs!). But I got over that in a day or two.
I also spent a weekend on a dairy farm and helped to care for and milk cows that were related to the hamburger I ate for supper that night. Yummiest hamburger I ever had. The family I was with told us the name of the cow that it was from, but I don't remember it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It's not uncommon for the question "Who are we eating tonight?" to be asked at our dinner table.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:First thing off the top of my head: a minor backstory mention in one of Cory Doctorow's stories that explained how artificial intelligence began. Spambots were evolving to sound more human and thus get past the filters, filters were getting smarter to catch the spambots, and they continued in an intelligence arms race until AI was born.
Chris,
That's very similar to the way I thought The Matrix should have begun. Humans enslaved themselves by building better and better Virtual Reality games/simulations, until the humans lost touch with their reality, and the agents interacted more and more directly with human thought until they became sentient.
Boy was I disappointed with the whole humans enslave robots thing.
quote:It's not uncommon for the question "Who are we eating tonight?" to be asked at our dinner table.
When my cousins slaughtered their first piece of livestock for food, their children were distraught and asked "How can we eat Charlie?" My cousin's wife responded: "Would you rather have Charlie eaten by strangers?"
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