Dang immigrants refusing to teach their children English!
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Does Klingon have words for love, banana, tummy, etc? If not I think it's a terrible thing to wait so long to teach your child those concepts.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Klingon appears to be a difficult language According to the dictionary, love translates as 'Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80004005'
[MySQL][ODBC 3.51 Driver]Can't connect to MySQL server on 'localhost' (10061)
/single.asp, line 24'
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
A driver error by any other name / would smell as sweet;
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
[geek]
The Klingon word for love is bang.
And the word for tummy (as stomach or belly)is burgh and chor respectively.
There seems to be no word for banana. Although, if I were a Klingon and never saw a banana, I would probably pronounce it banana, but with a guttural accent.
[/geek]
Posted by paigereader (Member # 2274) on :
My favorite part is the caption... "This is not d'Armond Speers."
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
HAHA
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Using your child as a lab rat to sell software.
Wow.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
quote:Using your child as a lab rat to sell software.
Duh. He has confused Klingon with Ferengi.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Maybe the wife is Ferengi.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
The dad spoke Klingon. His wife spoke English. It's not like the child's been deprived of anything. Also, the kid's in high school now AND doesn't ever speak Klingon. I think he's fine.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
Perhaps he doesn't speak Klingon, but could he if he wanted to?
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Using your child as a lab rat to sell software.
Wow.
The blog post is a bit misleading on that point. The article that it links to makes it pretty clear that the timeline is more like "Speers tries to teach his kid to speak Klingon natively" -> ten or more years pass -> "Ultralingua is looking for a Klingon consultant, hears that Speers has experience with the language, and contacts him."
Whether using your kid as a lab rat just to satisfy your own curiosity is better is an open question, I guess.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
"His wife spoke English."
I don't know why this didn't occur to me.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ambyr, thanks for the clarification.
But yeah, I'm not so hepped on kid as lab rat, regardless.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Hmm. I wouldn't be myself, but I do have to wonder: how much will the kid be hampered by this in life? If there's anyone capable of 'catching up' the kid, so to speak, on speaking English as a native language while the kid is still toddling around, I think it would be this guy.
Posted by Godric (Member # 4587) on :
Why would he necessarily be hampered? If he grew up hearing and learning 2 languages, my guess is he'll be just fine - in fact, if he has an interest in language I bet it will have helped him.
Audrey hears English and Spanish daily - she's not talking yet, so I don't know if she'll start speaking both, but she certainly understands both at this point.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, it's possible he might be hampered by only hearing one language, not two, for the first three years of his life-a made up language not used for anything about actually living and making one's way in the world, that is.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
That's ridiculous. Now, if Dad had only spoken Sindarin - it would have been at least ten levels of awesome. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Bilingual kids do learn languages more slowly, but IIRC, by about age 5 they are as fluent as they monolingual peers.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
Bah! Sindarin... uncouth yokels. Quenya is the language of the gods.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
My father spoke Norwegian to me when I was a kid, and my mother English. Assertions like "I turned out ok" are of course a bit dangerous, but at least linguistically I think this one might be safe. Posted by Hank (Member # 8916) on :
Actually, I believe bilingual kids have been shown to have a greater ability to pick up new languages later in life, and have a greater understanding of how language works, so it could be a perk.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Well, it's possible he might be hampered by only hearing one language, not two, for the first three years of his life-a made up language not used for anything about actually living and making one's way in the world, that is.
Sure, hypothetically, but that didn't happen in this case.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hank: Actually, I believe bilingual kids have been shown to have a greater ability to pick up new languages later in life, and have a greater understanding of how language works, so it could be a perk.
I am unconvinced that a language like Klingon, with an artificial grammar and syntax, and an extremely limited vocabulary, would have this benefit.
It's worse than making your kid's "second language" Esperanto!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
At least the dad was involved with his kid. That's a big plus.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Good point, Shmuel, my bad. I meant to say that if he had actually heard only Klingon for the first three years of his life, this particular guy, if anyone could, would be capable of mitigating any bad consequences, y'know?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: I am unconvinced that a language like Klingon, with an artificial grammar and syntax, and an extremely limited vocabulary, would have this benefit.
It may be artificial, but it's modeled on real languages and has a pretty complex system of grammar, including a lot of concepts that are quite foreign to English speakers. It does seem that the vocabulary could be quite limiting, however.
Posted by Ace of Spades (Member # 2256) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Does Klingon have words for love, banana, tummy, etc? If not I think it's a terrible thing to wait so long to teach your child those concepts.
At what age do you think you should start to teach children about their "love banana"? (Are we even allowed to use the term "love banana" around here?)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: It may be artificial, but it's modeled on real languages and has a pretty complex system of grammar, including a lot of concepts that are quite foreign to English speakers.
Which is why I compared it to Esperanto.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hank: Actually, I believe bilingual kids have been shown to have a greater ability to pick up new languages later in life, and have a greater understanding of how language works, so it could be a perk.
According to a preschool teacher that I know (not a linguist), there seems to be a brief period of time when children of bilingual households don't understand either language. They fail to respond to either English or their native language, both at school, and at home according to parents of her bilingual students. However, this is a brief period and is usually followed by the child being extremely fluent in both languages all of a sudden. To her it seems almost as if there is a short time when the brain is adjusting to the languages, and once it's done the child's vocabulary is often much more complex than it was before.
Keep in mind that this is not any kind of a formal study, and again, not a linguist. But just observation by a teacher of young children, many of whom are from bilingual households.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Ambyr, thanks for the clarification.
But yeah, I'm not so hepped on kid as lab rat, regardless.
Yup, this is my real problem here. Experimenting on you kid isn't ethical even if it turns out all right in the end.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:there seems to be a brief period of time when children of bilingual households don't understand either language.
Uh...it doesn't have to be a bilingual household in order to have this effect. This period lasts from about age 3 to age 12 (for girls) and age 14 for boys.
Language understanding kicks in about the same time as romantic interest does. Unfortunately, the child's new capability to understand does not lead to an increased desire to do what a parent/authority figure requests. No; instead of a blank, vacant stare, you get a sneer.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Experimenting on you kid isn't ethical even if it turns out all right in the end.
Experimenting on your kid is not avoidable.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Experimenting on you kid isn't ethical even if it turns out all right in the end.
Experimenting on your kid is not avoidable.
I think we mean something different by "experimenting".
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Experimenting on you kid isn't ethical even if it turns out all right in the end.
Depending on how it is done, I don't see it as any different from experimenting on other parents' kids with the parents' consent.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
There are very specific rules for experimenting with human subjects.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Yes, and we do plenty of experiments with children's language acquisition within those specific rules. That this guy is using his own kid as a subject doesn't make it inherently unethical.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Depending on how it is done, I don't see it as any different from experimenting on other parents' kids with the parents' consent.
The big difference is that experimenting on your own child creates a conflict of interest that could potential compromise both the child and the experiment.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Laws regarding human testing?
Hooo, boy! That's a good one.
Back in your cage, you...
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Yes, and we do plenty of experiments with children's language acquisition within those specific rules. That this guy is using his own kid as a subject doesn't make it inherently unethical.
Interesting. I am surrounded by world class experts on how children acquire language. I am now curious enough to ask how the Klingon thing fits into their idea of ethical experimentation.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
I have a friend whose daughter just turned 7, he has never spoken to her in English. If she tries to ask him something in English, he just looks at her funny until she repeats it in Spanish. His reasons are that he wants her to grow up completely bilingual - so completely comfortable with both that she can instantly express her thoughts in either language without having to translate in her head. He's a second generation immigrant, and he said whenever he talks to his family, he always has to translate from English (the language he thinks in) to Spanish, and it slows him down and makes him awkward.
I'm not sure what the justification for teaching your son Klingon is though... maybe he'll meet a hot Klingon woman at a Star Trek convention some day? I don't see how it hurt his son at all.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: I am surrounded by world class experts on how children acquire language. I am now curious enough to ask how the Klingon thing fits into their idea of ethical experimentation.
Please post the answer. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I was just reading an article in Time about a school somewhere in the midwest, I want to say Minnesota, where the kids get their entire education in Mandarin. The students tended to have some language/learning issues after a few years, but they all sorted themselves out before they hit high school, leaving no lasting problems, but pretty complete bi-lingual command.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote: I am surrounded by world class experts on how children acquire language. I am now curious enough to ask how the Klingon thing fits into their idea of ethical experimentation.
Please post the answer.
I will once I get it. I am surrounded by them, but they are busy folks.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
FYI: We adopted our son from Russia just before his 4th birthday.
He could speak elementary Russian.
Within months of moving to the US and being immersed in English (well, American English anyway) he lost all his Russian. One teacher and one family friend tried to coax it back but he refused.
Today his only problem with English is his retainer. The only Russian he knows are the few words we memorized--mostly NYET.
(It is interesting. If there is one word that you truly must use to raise a healthy child, it isn't love or hug or good. Its, "NO!". As in "No-step away from the stove." and "No, do not play with the cat that way." and "No, reboot mama's computer again while she's winning a Canasta tournament and you may not reach your next birthday.")
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: (It is interesting. If there is one word that you truly must use to raise a healthy child, it isn't love or hug or good. Its, "NO!". As in "No-step away from the stove." and "No, do not play with the cat that way." and "No, reboot mama's computer again while she's winning a Canasta tournament and you may not reach your next birthday.")
My dad would always tell me the reason God made children so cute is so their parents wouldn't be tempted to eat them. I got the point pretty quick.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: It may be artificial, but it's modeled on real languages and has a pretty complex system of grammar, including a lot of concepts that are quite foreign to English speakers.
Which is why I compared it to Esperanto.
Typologically speaking, Esperanto is pretty similar to English. It's designed to be very easy for speakers of European languages, especially western European languages, to pick up. It's also highly regular, unlike most real languages. Klingon, on the other hand, is designed to be typologically dissimilar to most of the world's languages, and it includes a lot of irregularities.
Esperanto and Klingon may both be constructed languages modeled on real-world grammars, but they are radically different from each other. So I'm still not sure why you're grouping the two together and why the fact that they're artificial per se should have anything to do with their ability to give people a better understanding of how language works.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
quote:The intellectual education of Montaigne was assigned to a German tutor (a doctor named Horstanus who couldn't speak French). His father hired only servants who could speak Latin and they also were given strict orders to always speak to the boy in Latin or when he was in their presence. The same rule applied to his mother, father, and servants, who were obliged to use only Latin words he himself employed, and thus acquired a knowledge of the very language his tutor taught him.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I spoke with Lawrence Schoen, who is one of the foremost linguists of Klingon. He said that the boy in question is now 16 years old, and that he's a perfectly nice kid.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
My son is 18 months old, and so far we've spoken to him almost exclusively in Albanian. Seems to be working out so far.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
This reminds me of a Roald Dahl short story (I can't remember the title for the life of me) where a father teaches his kid the wrong words - salt for sugar, knife for fork and so on.
IIRC, it results in grisly end. Not uncommon for a Roald Dahl short story, really.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
*whew* I was insanely relieved to go to the article and find out that it was NOT someone I knew or had ever known!
I went to school with quite a few people who spoke Klingon and threatened to do things like this. One of them even changed his name to ilam.
On a side note, I always wondered what it would be like to teach my kids Latin as their native language. Unfortunately, I failed to learn Latin before my son was born. Oh well...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:My son is 18 months old, and so far we've spoken to him almost exclusively in Albanian. Seems to be working out so far.
Experimenter!
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I had a chance to talk with our Assoc. Dean for Research. She said (as I expected) that while it probably wouldn't do any harm - being similar to being raised in a two language family except useless) - an experiment to do this would be unlikely to get approval from the research organizations that regulate such things. Most research on human subjects, especially children, consists of collecting data on what already is rather than altering conditions in ways that might have unforeseeable consequences.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Thanks Kate
I was once a member of the Institutional review board that approved all human subjects research so I am very familiar with the criteria used. There is no way the review board on which I served would have approved this study. It violates way too many principles.
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