Fourthed!
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
How can anyone say that Christmas is ignored when I was skirting plastic santa to get to my halloween candy? Its pretty funny to see The Gap as the most offensive store, seeing as they only really advertise to middle and upper class white society, its nice to know they can still keep the Jesus freaks down at the same time y'know?
Edit. Upon further review, this has got to be the most unchristian thing I have seen in a while. Trying to bully a business into conforming to thier individual ways, who cares if the clerk says "happy holidays" instead of "merry christmas" God himself gave us freewill and I'll be damned if I let some huffy church lady give me lip because the company plays rudolph and santa music instead of christian songs. Its not that big of a deal, and it is extremely petty for someone to feel like they have been victorious when they dont go to Best Buy.
What do they expect? a priest with some wine and crackers standing inside the doorway to greet them like the old folks at walmart?
[ December 08, 2009, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: AchillesHeel ]
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
How macabre... what exactly are they standing for? It doesn't even seem to be a religious thing- just an absolutely fanatical devotion to the idea of "Christmas Shopping" involving Christmas related cultural items... weeiird.
ETA: and besides, if I were a Christian I *wouldn't* want Christmas commercialized- and yet these people are fighting for the continued commercialization of the holiday. I went to a Catholic high school, and I'm fairly sure Catholics, at least, would probably never do something like this. As I recall, there was very little of the corporate "Christmas Cheers" stuff in school; in fact even less than when I had been in public school. Since I've always detested the holiday for all those things anyway, I never did mind. It's one of the reasons I am very glad to live outside of the US, and can choose to visit at other times of the year.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
Comic:
I don't understand how Christians feel this way. In fact, as annoyed as I am with these aspects the Christmas season, I'm significantly less offended by it as an Atheist than I was as a Christian.
I mean, if someone really does believe that God became flesh, then was tortured and killed as a selfless sacrifice for our sins, how is it even OK (let alone desirable) for corporate behemoths to exploit that in an effort to sell me their baubles?
I just attended my grandmother's funeral this weekend. If I walked into Wal-Mart and the greeter told me that my dead grandma wanted me to go buy an X-Box, I'd probably knee him in the sack. I can't think of a less appropriate tribute to anyone's death than the one these Christians are demanding for Jesus.
Posted by Clive Candy (Member # 11977) on :
Haha, those wacky Christians, pressuring businesses to be Christmas friendly in a country that's overwhelmingly Christian.
Haha!
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
So apparently, if I want to vote with my dollar I need to shop more at The Gap and Best Buy.
Hmmmm.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy: Haha, those wacky Christians, pressuring businesses to be Christmas friendly in a country that's overwhelmingly Christian.
Haha!
Actually, it seems they want to pressure these businesses to be anti-anything that isn't Christian.
"Happy Holidays" is just as Christian friendly as it is Jewish friendly, Muslim friendly and Pagan friendly.
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert: "Happy Holidays" is just as Christian friendly as it is Jewish friendly, Muslim friendly and Pagan friendly.
Far more, I'd say. This isn't particularly the holiday season for anybody but the Christians, and possibly the Pagans. Christmas is a major holiday. Chanukah is not... and on the Muslim side, Eid al-Adha's already passed this year. (As for the first of Muharram and Ashura, they're solemn, not festive.)
I agree with Speed and Orincoro, however, I think the wacky Christians are coming at it from a different perspective. I think that in their mind, not saying Marry Christmas and having Rudolph songs playing means that the sacrifice is being ignored. Instead of focusing on the "reason for the season" they are focusing on random perks. I think for them, it is like going to your grandpa's funeral and everyone is talking about Aunt Jane's kegger the entire time.
I think this is confused logic since shopping at Walmart should not be the same as a religious service (or a funeral from my analogy above). But I think that is where they are coming from. Of course, in this case, understanding why they are crazy doesn't really help counteract the crazy.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Speed:
I don't understand how Christians feel this way.
Neither can I.
Change that. I can understand it. I can't see how it is at all "Christian." Or "American" - the Puritans would have been horrified.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Do you think its a bad website Lisa because of bad site design or concept or because it involves a pagan holiday? --> Just curious, no negative conuctations attached.
Posted by Clive Candy (Member # 11977) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy: Haha, those wacky Christians, pressuring businesses to be Christmas friendly in a country that's overwhelmingly Christian.
Haha!
Actually, it seems they want to pressure these businesses to be anti-anything that isn't Christian.
"Happy Holidays" is just as Christian friendly as it is Jewish friendly, Muslim friendly and Pagan friendly.
The Muslim calandar is lunar. Muslim holidays move around every year.
"Happy holidays" can be offensive to them too because they don't really have anything to celebrate around this time.
Not to mention Hindus and Buddhists and everyone else who doesn't have a big Holiday to celebrate in December.
If stores shouldn't say "Merry Christmas" because it's offensive to non-Christians then they shouldn't say "Happy Holidays" either to those of us who don't have anything to celebrate around this time.
But as it stands, if an employee says "Happy holidays!" to a religious Hindu than that Hindu has to think "I have no holidays to celebrate but whatever" and meekly reply "happy holidays" or just say "thank you." The Hindu is certainly uncomfortable in that exchange. How come no one cares about him? Should anyone care about him? The logic of having to say "happy holidays" can lead to stores simply not acknowledging the "holidays" all together.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
ok then
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy: Haha, those wacky Christians, pressuring businesses to be Christmas friendly in a country that's overwhelmingly Christian.
Haha!
A) "Christmas Friendly" is a euphemism for "Christian Oriented," which is why we are all laughing at the Christians for wanting their holiday to be commercialized in this way, because it's *weird*.
B) A nominal 70% is not an overwhelming majority, (and I remind we are counting Catholics and Protestants as one group here, despite the fact that Catholics are not particularly philosophically interested in holiday commercialization), and the percentage of self-identifying Christians in America is dropping- which is probably more fuel to the fire for these nut-jobs who think Christ will be reborn in a foot locker if enough people say "merry x-mass." Now we have this discussion every year- and it always comes from the right, "defiantly" sticking up for their Christian holiday. If you're the overwhelming majority, because a lot of batsh** crazy advocates is not what you need right now.
Posted by Clive Candy (Member # 11977) on :
Why should customs and cultural practices be changed because a minority who does not celebrate the majority's holiday is made to feel mildly uncomfortable?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy: But as it stands, if an employee says "Happy holidays!" to a religious Hindu than that Hindu has to think "I have no holidays to celebrate but whatever" and meekly reply "happy holidays" or just say "thank you." The Hindu is certainly uncomfortable in that exchange. How come no one cares about him? Should anyone care about him? The logic of having to say "happy holidays" can lead to stores simply not acknowledging the "holidays" all together.
Heh. That's why I rather like Slavic culture. The idea that you would invade your customer's space and privacy by adding either slogan to your normal shopping exchange is totally foreign. You get a "good day" if the person really freaking means it. Otherwise it's "goodbye."
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:The Hindu is certainly uncomfortable in that exchange.
This is your assumption. It is also wrong.
Have a Happy Pancha Ganapati! And a Merry Bodhi Day!
(Pancha Ganapti is a five-day festival celebrated from December 21 through 25, Hindu festival in celebration of Lord Ganesha, Patron of Arts and Guardian of Culture.
Bodhi Day honours the enlightenment of Siddhartha Gautama -- the Buddha. Buddhists observe the importance of this event by celebrating Bodhi Day usually on the eighth of December.)
Thank you google and wikipedia.)
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy: Why should customs and cultural practices be changed because a minority who does not celebrate the majority's holiday is made to feel mildly uncomfortable?
The beauty of changing cultural practices is that once you change them, they *are* the cultural practices. Too bad if that perturbs you. Perhaps we should bring back declensions in English because we only got rid of them the first time so that people of different cultures could understand each other more easily.
Posted by Clive Candy (Member # 11977) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
quote:The Hindu is certainly uncomfortable in that exchange.
This is your assumption. It is also wrong.
Why? Why should the hindu assume you're greeting him for his holiday, a holiday that might not be important to him as Christmas is to Christians? Indeed, Christmas *is* the main show for Christians. Just let them have their wish to have Christmas reflected in the culture. No one is hurt.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy:
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
quote:The Hindu is certainly uncomfortable in that exchange.
This is your assumption. It is also wrong.
Why? Why should the hindu assume you're greeting him for his holiday, a holiday that might not be important to him as Christmas is to Christians? Indeed, Christmas *is* the main show for Christians. Just let them have their wish to have Christmas reflected in the culture. No one is hurt.
First of all, I was under the impression that Easter was the main show for Christians. That's what I was taught in Sunday School, anyway.
Secondly, are you actually arguing that a Hindu will be upset because I wished her "Happy Holidays" and her holiday doesn't happen to be as big as Christians perceive their holiday to be? That doesn't even approach sense.
And lastly, no one is hurt when a business chooses of their own free will to say "Happy Holidays" either. Some extreme Christians are annoyed, but no one is harmed.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
I. LOVE. THAT. SITE.
(The troll is hungry! Feed him! Feed him now!)
Posted by Clive Candy (Member # 11977) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert: Secondly, are you actually arguing that a Hindu will be upset because I wished her "Happy Holidays" and her holiday doesn't happen to be as big as Christians perceive their holiday to be? That doesn't even approach sense. [/QB]
It could be taken as very condescending. Perhaps the Hindu doesn't want you -- an alien to his culture -- greeting him on his holidays?
quote:And lastly, no one is hurt when a business chooses of their own free will to say "Happy Holidays" either. Some extreme Christians are annoyed, but no one is harmed
Christians are the majority of this culture. Orincoro said 70%, but how many of that remaining 30% -- the non-religious ones -- don't mind "Merry Christmas"? It's simple, really: stores don't say "Merry Christmas" because they're afraid of losing the business of those who would object -- namely, Jews and atheists. There's nothing wrong with Christians religious groups threatening to only reward businesses that aren't afraid to say "merry christmas." Businesses would be forced decide between Christians/those who don't mind "merry Christmas!" and Jews/atheists/Muslims/Hindus. Hmm...what's the economically reasonable thing to do?
[ December 08, 2009, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Clive Candy ]
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
Your response has shown in no way how any Christian is harmed.
As for the 70%...I'd be interested in seeing the percentage of Americans who would boycott stores that don't say Merry Christmas. I suspect it may not even be in the double digits. They're loud, but clearly a minority.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I agree with Speed, in that I'd rather corporations kept themselves separate from my holy day. I'm having a hard enough time celebrating it properly without all the commercial crap to deal with.
Not that I'd be offended to be greeted with a "Merry Christmas" if I walked into Gap; I'd be pleased by it. But I think I like it better now that the stores proudly boast "Happy Holidays" all over their decor. Keeps the worship of The Presents separate from the worship of God, in my opinion.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Of course we are harmed! We (for a tiny fraction of the time) are forced, forced against our will to acknowledge that there are other people in our community and that we are no more special than they are.
It is awful!
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
--j_k
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Yeah, I was planning to try and find a stupider site too, just to prove I could, but got bored and gave up.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Do you think its a bad website Lisa because of bad site design or concept or because it involves a pagan holiday? --> Just curious, no negative conuctations attached.
Because the people who made it are narrow minded idiots. Because they're trying to pretend that a store which doesn't promote Christmas to the exclusion of any other holiday is "anti-Christmas". Because what they'd really like is to put all the Jews and Muslims and Pagans and Atheists and probably everyone who isn't their exact kind of Christian into some sort of box. They're clearly misreading US as "us".
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick: I. LOVE. THAT. SITE.
(The troll is hungry! Feed him! Feed him now!)
Sorry. You're late to the party; apparently we're feeding CliveTroll right now. You can come back later, if you want. See if we have anything left for you.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
The logic behind their complaints seems like it is this: What they are really concerned about is Political Correctness. Political Correctness is a problem for Christians largely when it attemps to limit religion to the "private" sphere, and keep it out of the public sphere. Many Christians want it to be acceptable and comfortable to discuss God in public; some would consider publicly advocating Christ to be essential to being Christian. Thus, if they see Political Correctness as a force that makes it feel wrong to express one's Christianity in public, it makes sense that they'd consider Political Correctness to be a threat.
Given that, the issue with stores at Christmas time is a proxy battle. It's not really the stores they are targeting. They're targeting Political Correctness. The assumption is that they can counterbalance Political Correctness by punishing stores who kowtow to it. And then somehow this is going to discredit Political Correctness.
I can't say I can imagine such a plan working. Instead it just discredits the Christians doing the complaining, not to mention making them needlessly grumpy. But, that leaves the hard question: What can Christians do to promote the idea that religion in public is not offensive, without angering people?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I feel refreshingly welcome. Thanks for that. I feel like I can do anything there.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: What can Christians do to promote the idea that religion in public is not offensive, without angering people?
The problem is, they aren't looking at it from the other direction. If it's okay to promote Christianity, then it's just as okay to promote anti-Christianity. If it's okay for one group to push their religion on others (because their religion says it's an important thing to do), then a group which feels it's important to keep people from adopting that religion should be able to do that as well.
Of course, then you run into human nature, where the fact of such disputes will almost inevitably turn dark, and possibly violent.
It's pretty much the reason why America has the First Amendment. I'll grant you that the First Amendment is only a restriction on Congress, but the principle holds elsewhere. America is supposed to be a place where we do refrain from pushing our religious views on others, for the simple reason that we don't want them pushing theirs on us.
Unfortunately, Christianity has a long history of such pushing, so there are Christians who feel that it's normal/natural for them to engage in it, and that any expectation of restraint is really "bullying" and oppression.
I suspect that if they had to put up with billboards making Jesus jokes and mocking their religion publically, they might learn a little sensitivity about pushing their religious views on others.
Happily, most Christians in America have grown out of this need to get in everyone's face. They haven't abandoned their belief that they should share what they consider to be "good news" with others, but they do so in a civil way.
My problem with that site is that it's clearly written by people who scorn that sort of civility.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I'm with them as far as wanting to get rid of that damned reindeer. The religious songs that have accreted around Christmas tend, at least, to be moderately good considered as music. If I could boycott every store that insists on the bleeping red nose, the winter censoredland, and the flipping chestnuts, I would. Alas, I'd likely starve.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I could happily do without those songs as well. Also Jingle Bells.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
It occurred to me this past week that reindeer is kosher. And I was thinking that it would be cool to have reindeer steaks, served with a little cherry tomato next to it. Roast Rudolph.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: What can Christians do to promote the idea that religion in public is not offensive, without angering people?
We could, in the spirit of the season, try practicing a little freakin' good will.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Reindeer meat is a traditional winter food in Norway, usually served flaked in a brown gravy. With potatoes and cranberries. It's sort of chewy and juicy. For a while in the eighties you weren't supposed to eat it too often because the moss the reindeer feed on was radioactive from Chernobyl fallout.
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
I'll speak up as a Christian and say I don't like that site either for some of the same and some very different reasons.
I think it's far from a good idea to bully any retailer for this particular reason. If we found out they required every employee to kill a puppy before hitting the floor, then sure, bully them away. I am not, however, going to get upset if someone does not play a Christmas song or wish me a Merry Christmas.
On that note, I might get a little disheartened (not angry) if I were to wish someone a Merry Christmas and then have them turn around and "attack" me in some fashion for doing so. I tend to jump between "Merry Christmas!" and "Happy Holidays!" when expressing good will to people this time of year. I just wouldn't appreciate a hostile reaction if I used the first is all.
There's a lot more I could say about why I don't like the site and what it stands for, but I just don't have the time to put it all in words here. Just let me wish you all a Merry Christmas without having things thrown at me and I will be a-okay.
If I thought it would serve a purpose, I would remind the people posting on that site of the anti-consumerism message of A Charlie Brown Christmas (obviously a sacred program ;]). After all the hullabaloo about pagents and shiny tin Christmas trees, Linus tells Charlie Brown what it's all about. And that was the point. Why are they, as consumers, attacking businesses for the purpose of making their Christmas shopping experience more what they think it should be? It's just plain dumb.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
That site reminds me of the South Park song "Merry &%$#@! Christmas", as sung by Mr. Garrison and Mr. Hat.
Posted by Godric (Member # 4587) on :
As a Christian, I think that site is ridiculous.
But I do have a response to anyone (Hindu, Muslim, whatever) who would be offended by either "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays": at least in the USA, Christmas is a federal holiday. Whether you participate in the observances of the holiday or not, if you're an American citizen, it is one of your national holidays. Just sayin'...
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Yeah. And there is something not quite right about that.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
You know what I find even dumber than the people at this website getting all worked up about store clerks that don't wish them a Merry Christmas -- people who get all worked about this website.
Do you know how many websites there are out there with Jews complaining about the celebration of Christmas? Neither do I but googling it brought up pages of examples of Jews who'd complained to stores about Christmas decorations. How is that any different than what these people are doing?
We live in a multi-cultural community and people like to celebrate different things. Why can't we enjoy the diversity instead of getting bent out of shape over it?
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I think that it is easy for us (Christians) not to get bent out of shape because the culture so overwhelmingly favour us. And we haven't always been so nice about it.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I think that it is easy for us (Christians) not to get bent out of shape because the culture so overwhelmingly favour us. And we haven't always been so nice about it.
I'm not a big fan of quantifying who has the biggest martyr quotient and who has the biggest persecution track record. It's a conversation that is never finished.
I take no offense when none is intended, and that by itself to me seems to take care of most of the problem.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Well, based on this website, it seems like some Christians are just as easily bent out of shape about this kind of thing as are non-Christians.
Its easy for me not to get bent out of shape over it, so easy I don't understand people from the other side.
I'm living in a culture right now where there isn't a Christian majority. There isn't any religious majority. There are national holidays for Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jewish and African religions and nobody gets in the least bit bent out of shape over it. Christians visit their Muslim friends for Eid. Everyone is happy when the Hindus put up lights for Diwali and no one gets grumpy about christmas carols that start sometime in October. Maybe that's just because people here enjoy any excuse for a party, but it really does seem like people are much more tolerant of other religions.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
quote:Whether you participate in the observances of the holiday or not, if you're an American citizen, it is one of your national holidays. Just sayin'...
Here's a sad fact: I am an atheist who doesn't have to work on Christmas, but as an American I still had to work on Independence day because people need to shop on this very important day.
There's something very wrong with this country.
I work retail so this is nothing new. Every December I steel myself for the customers who yell at me about the Hanukkah gift cards or refuse to leave my register until I tell them "Merry Christmas."
This year we've decided to make a profit out of the beliefs of our community. We set up TWO huge Christian book tables in our very small store. We also have a "Merry Christmas" table ten feet from the door (though we did sneak a few non-Christmas book titles on the table.) I hate that Stephanie Meyer and Christ help me pay my rent, but in this kind of economy, I have to suck it up and smile.
Oh, can I also mention that Christian books and bibles are the MOST STOLEN items in our store.
Every year I do survive the holiday season with atleast one happy story. Like the man last year who walked up to our store manager and shook her hand because he was so pleasantly surprised to see Hanukkah gift cards. He had the biggest smile on his face. Deep in Catholic Louisiana, its probably not a sight he sees often.
Its a week into the month of December and I've yet to have my free-speech rights violated by any little old ladies.
I love diversity. I love that our overhead music is a combination of Christian spiritual, secular, and Jewish. I love that I work in a store that has books for people from every walk of life.
I hate the attitudes of my customers who see three Christmas tables and demand a fourth. I hate customers who complain to my boss and threaten my job and livelihood because I said "Happy Holidays."
I don't want to be one of those hateful militant atheists, but its hard to be understanding when Christian goodwill is so lacking this time of year.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Reindeer meat is a traditional winter food in Norway, usually served flaked in a brown gravy.
It's also huge with tourists. When I was traveling to Oslo a few years ago pretty much every American would get reindeer when we went out to eat.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:I don't want to be one of those hateful militant atheists, but its hard to be understanding when Christian goodwill is so lacking this time of year.
I understand your sentiment, but at the same time isn't that kind of emotional response the root of the problem. Someone does something to make the kind of people who set up these websites feel like they are under attack, so they set up a counterattack, so someone posts on the internet about how irritating they are, and someone (like me) posts to say how stupid it is to get irritated by their irritation and pretty soon we've ratcheted things up so we've lost all perspective on what should be a joyful festival.
The problem is that once it's started, it's much harder to ratchet it down than to crank it up. We just all need to back off a bit and let it go.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I'm living in a culture right now where there isn't a Christian majority. There isn't any religious majority. There are national holidays for Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jewish and African religions and nobody gets in the least bit bent out of shape over it. Christians visit their Muslim friends for Eid. Everyone is happy when the Hindus put up lights for Diwali and no one gets grumpy about christmas carols that start sometime in October. Maybe that's just because people here enjoy any excuse for a party, but it really does seem like people are much more tolerant of other religions.
Bolding mine. I think that is why nobody gets bent. When all religions (or none) are equitably celebrated it is easier. There is no being a minority where you have to use your vacation days to celebrate your holiday while everyone else in the office gets theirs "for free" (as just one example). There is no being overwhelmed by a culture that is ignoring you (at best). And there is no panic that our privileged place as number one might be threatened.
ETA: Okay. It was all bolded. Duh. The phrase I wanted to highlight was "There isn't any religious majority."
[ December 08, 2009, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
thanks for the link mal, that site seems like a really good resource.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Everyone should be allowed to have whatever emotional response they would like. It seems more a question of appropriate response.
I have never told someone they are not allowed to wish me a "blessed day" (a cashier at my local walmart says this to me everytime she checks me out.) I have never boycotted a story for selling nativity scenes or menorahs.
We set up a small atheist endcap a few months ago. I imagine that quite a few people walked by and have strongly negative reactions. And that's perfectly allowable. But the people who pulled me away from my job in order to verbally attack me for something I had no control over...that's where I start to get alittle angry. When people loudly tell me they're taking their business elsewhere because of a corporate decision, its hard not to take it personally. We listen to every unmet sales goal with heavy hearts because we watch the payroll hours disappear until our friends quit in hopes of finding other work.
Let people feel however they want. Let them rant and rave to their friends if they need to blow off steam. But its inappropriate to verbally harass innocent people and wage a financial war on anyone who doesn't cater to extreme religious desires.
Maybe its their "right." But it sure doesn't make them polite, understanding, tolerant people.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Do you know how many websites there are out there with Jews complaining about the celebration of Christmas? Neither do I but googling it brought up pages of examples of Jews who'd complained to stores about Christmas decorations. How is that any different than what these people are doing?
Not that I doubt your word, of course, but would you mind sharing some of those links? I mean, I'm about as intolerant a Jew as you're liable to find, and while I'll complain about a store that has a trillion rolls of Christmas wrapping paper and not a single Hanukkah one, I've never given anyone a hard time in my life about them saying "Merry Christmas" or having Christmas decorations. In fact, we're probably going to go driving on the 24th to look at all the decorations around, because it's pretty (okay, sometimes it's kitchy, but on the whole, it's pretty).
If a clerk says "Merry Christmas" to me (or "Happy Holidays", for that matter), I might smile and say, "You too", or just reply with a "Happy holidays". But I guarantee you that the people who made that site, if they said Merry Christmas to someone and got a Happy Holidays back, would claim they were being oppressed.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
This site is run by Focus on the (Christian, straight) Family so it's not just a random Christian with a bug up their rear. They are a pretty substantial political force. I'd be surprised to see a similarly well-organized and influential Jewish organization doing something similar.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Lisa, I really don't want to do the search again and I certainly didn't bookmark the sites. If you really want to see them, google "Jews complain about Christmas" or something like that.
I'm confident that it is a rarity for Jews to file complaints about things like Christmas displays. All the Jews I know IRL are very open tolerant people who like you enjoy at least some aspects of the Christmas season. But this website doesn't represent the Christian mainstream either.
Why get worked up over a few wackos?
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I've always been confused about people who have a problem with the term "Happy Holidays" and insist on "Merry Christmas".
I never understood what the problem was with including New Year's Day in the well wishing.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:But this website doesn't represent the Christian mainstream either.
Depends on how you want to define mainstream. They are one of the largest evangelical organizations in existence, with revenues of over $142 million last year. They are a prominent anti-SSM (and anti-gay rights) organization. It's founder and leader was an advisor to Bush and has a nationally syndicated talk radio show.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
I utilize Christian businesses whenever possible. Some make sure they spend their money at "green" companies and I never hear a complaint that Spike Lee films are 99% black. There's nothing wrong with supporting your community or encouraging your beliefs, whatever they are. (except for Christian, straight organizations of course)
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP:
quote:But this website doesn't represent the Christian mainstream either.
Depends on how you want to define mainstream. They are one of the largest evangelical organizations in existence, with revenues of over $142 million last year. They are a prominent anti-SSM (and anti-gay rights) organization. It's founder and leader was an advisor to Bush and has a nationally syndicated talk radio show.
You don't really want to open the door to radical presidential advisors. Of course conservative Christians are equivalent to Marxist Communists.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Nothing wrong with encouraging Christian/black/gay/green/whatever businesses. It's labeling a lack of a corporate preference for your specific beliefs as "offensive" that makes this silly. They are conflating "doesn't explicitly give preference to us" with "is against us."
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:You don't really want to open the door to radical presidential advisors.
I didn't say anything about whether he was a radical advisor, or otherwise impugn his character. I was just noting that this is not a fringe organization.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: We set up a small atheist endcap a few months ago.
This is unclear to me. What is an "atheist endcap"?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
[quote]Depends on how you want to define mainstream. They are one of the largest evangelical organizations in existence, with revenues of over $142 million last year./quote]
Do you really think that the kind of people who complain to this website are mainstream anything?
I've lived among Christians in the America most of my life and while I've heard occasional grumbling about Xmas, I've never known anyone who would file a complaint about a store because the clerks said "Happy Holidays".
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:This is unclear to me. What is an "atheist endcap"?
And endcap is what you find at the end of a row of merchandise at a store. It's usually something that's on sale, seasonal items, or products that are topically related. In this case it sounds like Shanna works at a book store so it was probably a collection of Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, etc. books.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:I've never known anyone who would file a complaint about a store because the clerks said "Happy Holidays"
I have. There seems to be some overlap with the Palin/Beck crowd. It is a minority, but not a tiny one, and definitely not a quiet one. O'Reilly has already started his "war on Christmas" crap this year, and he's also pretty popular. Presumably it resonates with some substantial portion of his audience.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP:
quote:I've never known anyone who would file a complaint about a store because the clerks said "Happy Holidays"
I have. There seems to be some overlap with the Palin/Beck crowd. It is a minority, but not a tiny one, and definitely not a quiet one. O'Reilly has already started his "war on Christmas" crap this year, and he's also pretty popular. Presumably it resonates with some substantial portion of his audience.
I haven't except for on Hatrack (and other online places). But I live in a lovely sheltered blue blue university town.
[ December 08, 2009, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
I would never consider a "green" corporate preference site to be odd. Not using their site doesn't make one anti-green. The Christian site is not anti-gay either. Unfortunately, it today's society only groups that accept all other groups as morally equivalent are accepted. Except for Muslims of course, they can kill gays and mutilate women and get a pass under tolerance of religious freedom. Proclaim the Christian intolerant for believing you live an immoral life but be silent about the Muslim who would castrate you and tuck the appendage where the sun doesn't shine.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote: The Christian site is not anti-gay either. Unfortunately, it today's society only groups that accept all other groups as morally equivalent are accepted.
I didn't say this site is anti-gay. I said the organization is anti-gay and that was in the context of noting their political relevance. They actively campaign against gay-rights initiatives in the political sphere.
You're really all over the place here. Have you noticed that each time I reply I have to correct you on your apparent misinterpretation of my previous post. Slow down a bit and try to respond to the words you see, maybe even quote the ones you are responding to, rather than just pick a couple words and go on a screed about something only tangentially related.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
mal, The thing that makes this particular site offensive are the details. They are identifying stores as being anti-Christmas because of minutia, like clerks saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". That's not just intolerant, it's petty.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
This may be of note.
quote:Gallup finds some evidence of a consumer backlash, as 32% of Americans say it bothers them when stores use "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" in their displays at this time of year instead of "Merry Christmas."
quote:Sixty-two percent of Americans say that the now nearly ubiquitous use of "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings," rather than "Merry Christmas," in many stores and public institutions is a change for the worse. Only 24% consider it a change for the better.
So roughly 32% are bothered with 62% ringing hollow as the article calls it.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP:
quote:This is unclear to me. What is an "atheist endcap"?
And endcap is what you find at the end of a row of merchandise at a store. It's usually something that's on sale, seasonal items, or products that are topically related. In this case it sounds like Shanna works at a book store so it was probably a collection of Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, etc. books.
Ah, I see. Thanks. Posted by BackwardBlackbird (Member # 12224) on :
My personal (and hair-splitting) position on the "Merry Christmas" issue is that whether or not you're Christian, Christmas exists and all the person speaking is doing is hoping that Christmas goes well for you. That's why I say, "You too," if wished a happy Hanukkah (and what I would say if ever wished a happy Kwanzaa or something). My other opinion on the issue is that so many atheists and agnostics celebrate a version of Christmas that the religious connotation of the greeting depends on the two people talking. If a Walmart employee says, "Merry Christmas," I don't necessarily think they are Christian or care about the religious significance of the holiday.
I agree that what that site promotes is the antithesis of the Christian spirit this holiday is supposed to be about. I think that it's promoting an attitude of consumerism that already plays too much of a role on what's supposed to be a religious holiday. Easter is supposed to be just as, if not more, important that Christmas, but loses prominence because there aren't any presents.
I agree with the movement to put the Christ back in Christmas, but these people just seem dumb and motivated by beliefs that aren't Christian.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: mal, The thing that makes this particular site offensive are the details. They are identifying stores as being anti-Christmas because of minutia, like clerks saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". That's not just intolerant, it's petty.
I think they are drawing a line between what a clerk chooses to say and company policy. Companies are more than happy to reap the windfall of the Christian holiday. Without Christ there would be no Christmas season. Without Christianity, there would be no "holiday" season. Why not spend your money where they acknowledge the reason the money is being spent. If for you it is about presents and a day off, go to the holiday store. I wonder if you would even step foot into a store with a sign that said, "A Christian owned business" but I guarantee all Christians shop at "mainstream" stores.....who's intolerant.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: I wonder if you would even step foot into a store with a sign that said, "A Christian owned business" but I guarantee all Christians shop at "mainstream" stores.....who's intolerant.
Funny statement for this thread. I can show you at least one website full of Christians who don't shop at "mainstream" stores.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Companies are more than happy to reap the windfall of the Christian holiday. Without Christ there would be no Christmas season.
Surely you know that Christmas has its roots in non-Christian holidays that were celebrated long before anyone had heard of Christ. Perhaps we can credit Christianity for popularizing the holiday as a Christian one, but who's to say we wouldn't be celebrating in a very similar way had Christianity not become the dominant religion. It seems like every major religion has a celebratory holiday which could have been shoe-horned in pretty easily.
quote:I wonder if you would even step foot into a store with a sign that said, "A Christian owned business" but I guarantee all Christians shop at "mainstream" stores.....
Huh? I just ate In N Out for lunch today. Scripture references were proudly printed on the cups and burger wrappers. No problem there.
On the other hand, the whole point of this web site is to encourage Christians to not shop at "mainstream" stores that don't proactively acknowledge their religion. I'm aware of no similar organized drive to boycott businesses solely because they are run by Christians.
quote:who's intolerant.
Indeed.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
quote:Originally posted by Speed:
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: I wonder if you would even step foot into a store with a sign that said, "A Christian owned business" but I guarantee all Christians shop at "mainstream" stores.....who's intolerant.
Funny statement for this thread. I can show you at least one website full of Christians who don't shop at "mainstream" stores.
Really, please do. You can find extreme examples of anything. Where I live I would have to go hungry because there aren't any non-chain Christian grocery stores. I'm sure they'd refuse a tow from an atheist.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I have no problem shopping at Christian owned stores - or Muslim-owned stores or whatever. I would find making an issue of being a Christian-owned store or advertising it distasteful.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Without Christ there would be no Christmas season
Of course there would be. Nearly all elements of Christmas that are not explicitly religious (and some of those too) are taken from pagan sources. You may as well say that without Christ, there'd be no Easter.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop:
quote:Originally posted by Speed:
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: I wonder if you would even step foot into a store with a sign that said, "A Christian owned business" but I guarantee all Christians shop at "mainstream" stores.....who's intolerant.
Funny statement for this thread. I can show you at least one website full of Christians who don't shop at "mainstream" stores.
Really, please do. You can find extreme examples of anything. Where I live I would have to go hungry because there aren't any non-chain Christian grocery stores. I'm sure they'd refuse a tow from an atheist.
Am I really going to have to spell it out for you? Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Without Christ there would be no Christmas season. Without Christianity, there would be no "holiday" season.
Amusingly, the holiday season existed long before Christmas, and exists in parts of the world where Christianity is not a majority religion.
People like to light lights and give gifts and visit family when it gets dark and cold outside. Christ's "birthday" is a convenient modern excuse for a very ancient behavior.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
I feel I should take this time to wish everyone a very happy Feast of Saturn.
Io, Saturnalia!
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I agree with Rabbit. While I certainly don't have a problem with people exercising their right to shop where they will and to take offense where they will, this website goes overboard by saying that a clerk who answers "Merry Christmas" with "Happy Holidays" means the store is hostile to Christians. Give me a break!
I'm sure the same people posting that would find it extremely offensive if a clerk were required, as part of their job, to respond with "Happy Hanukkah" to any customer who mentioned it, even if the clerk were not Jewish. No one should be forced into responding a certain way to a holiday greeting - though you could certainly require they be polite.
If someone wishes me well for a holiday I do not celebrate, I smile, say thank you and something along the lines of "I hope you do, too," or "I hope you and your family have a great holiday."
90% of the time the exchange is really just part of a social ritual - it's just what you do, like the "How are you?" / "Fine." exchange. If I weren't sick right now I'd remember the exact term for these paired exchanges from my discourse analysis class but my head is fuzzy from cold medicine and is not functioning.
Suffice to say - if someone takes the time to wish you well, thank them and move on. Getting your knickers in a twist over something so small and petty is rather ridiculous, IMO.
Posted by Godric (Member # 4587) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: 90% of the time the exchange is really just part of a social ritual - it's just what you do, like the "How are you?" / "Fine." exchange.
I agree with all you said, but I wanted to comment on this. I have a hard time with the "How are you?" / "Fine." exchange. Does anyone else?
Half the time I get it right. The other half, I actually respond with how I am. Sometimes it results in an interesting conversation. Sometimes a very apparent "What the heck? I wasn't really asking."
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Godric: I agree with all you said, but I wanted to comment on this. I have a hard time with the "How are you?" / "Fine." exchange. Does anyone else?
There's a Dilbert strip that I can't find just now that expresses the same idea. Dogbert meets a guy on the street:
Guy: "Hi Dogbert, how are you?" Dogbert: "Is that a sincere question about my well-being or just a social pleasantry?" Guy (pauses): "The second one." Dogbert: "Oh I'm fine, how are you?"
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
The moral of this story should be: Don't get bent out of shape over things that don't really matter.
It's true on all sides of religious issues. Don't get bent out of shape when people say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". Don't get bent out of shape when kids say "God" in the pledge of allegiance. Don't get bent out of shape when a a store or institution shows respect to some other religion but doesn't include anything from your religion. Don't get bent out of shape when a cartoon depicts your personal religious savior in a negative light. These things don't really matter that much, so what good comes from making yourself and others upset over something that isn't worth it?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Which would be much more useful advice if people actually agreed on what doesn't matter.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
No, there's no need for agreement from other people. As long as I ask myself if this really matters, and don't get bent out of shape over things that don't, I should be mostly fine.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I think the phrase is: "Don't sweat the small stuff, and it's all small stuff"
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Again, it is easy for Christians (or should be) to "not sweat the small stuff" when we basically have it our own way. It is a bit like not caring where you sit on the bus when you always get a seat in the front.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Tresopax: Ah, if your moral was intended just for yourself then I have no objection. But as a rule for resolving the dispute between people in each of those examples that was mentioned, its pretty useless.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
You know, as much as I disagree with what these people are doing, they are clearly doing it because they feel like Christmas and Christianity are under attack and not out of some plot to suppress other religions and beliefs.
As much as I think that you have to be pretty whacked to think Christmas and Christianity are in any real danger, I think its also pretty evident that these people aren't actually suffering from a mental illness. There are reasons they feel the way they do, some of them legitimate, and attacking them for what they are doing is almost certain to make the problem worse.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I think that they are definitely threatened if by threatened one means that the privilege of being "top dog" in the culture is less than it was.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
The Rabbit: I agree with the second paragraph except that I don't think attacking them will make the problem worse. But we probably disagree on what the problem exactly is.
As for the first paragraph, I think they are out to preserve Christianity (and Christmas as a proxy for that) in a special privileged place. That they have to suppress other religions and beliefs in order to do that is almost collatoral damage rather than a conscious aim.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
Tresopax,
Your argument would be a good one if you kept it focused on the private sector.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
Why should I bend myself more out of shape over public sector issues that don't matter much than private sector issues that don't matter much? A website comparing which county or state governments are more "friendly" towards Christmas is no more reasonable than this website comparing private companies.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Lots of good stuff here. Where to begin...
First, define "Happy Holidays".
Most think Christmas and Hanukkah.
They forget the book ends--Thanksgiving and New Years, which are secular holidays for everyone. Add to that Kwanza, Festivus, and other new holidays, and you get the whole season, not just Christmas.
Second, what do they hope to accomplish? Do they really want the Gap and its low hanging pants to be associated with the Sacrifice and Miracles of Christ?
I don't think so.
They just don't like their Holiday--Christ-Mass to be taken over by profit seeking atheists and non-believers.
I can understand that.
But wait, isn't Easter the big Christian holiday?
Religiously--yes. Culturally--no. See, this isn't a theological dispute at all. While both sides like to argue the theology of it, its really a cultural dispute. The biggest, grandest, most well known and most exported American Holiday is Christmas.
I'm not saying that Christmas is American. I'm saying that Americans are renowned for their Christmas holiday, and culturally its a central part. (Name one TV series that has been popularly spread around the world that doesn't have at least one Holiday/Christmas episode?)
So if Christmas is a central part of American culture, and has roots in Christianity (perhaps not all roots, but many) then what better place to make a stand for Christians in the culture wars.
You can't put the Christ in Christmas unless you actually say Merry Christmas.
So what is this site, and this "War for Christmas" supposed to succeed in doing? Its designed to take the aggravations of some petty people--the "Say Christmas NOW!" folks--and use it to create a movement to put the word Christmas back on everyone's lips, by forcing the stores to choose whom they will alienate--Christian Soldier shoppers or Non-Believer Shoppers. So far, non-believers will shop in a Christian Oriented Store more often than Christian Soldiers will shop in a Secularized store, so they are winning.
But it goes beyond that on this web-site.
They aren't just demanding that people say Merry Christmas when they may mean "Happy Holidays--all of them." No. They want to remove all secularization from Christmas. No Rudolph. No Frosty. No Grinch. No Scrooge. No Santa.
They want hymns and preaching and evangelism with every sale.
That will drive even many good Christians away.
In the end, they will lose the War for Christmas by pushing too far. Face it, while the Christian Music my be better sounding than dogs barking Jingle Bells or Grandma Got Run Over By A Reindeer, the rest of that stuff just isn't as much fun.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: Why should I bend myself more out of shape over public sector issues that don't matter much than private sector issues that don't matter much? A website comparing which county or state governments are more "friendly" towards Christmas is no more reasonable than this website comparing private companies.
I was more commenting on your reference to the pledge of allegiance.
When the government, or institutions under the supervision of the government, require religious acknowledgment then it isn't a small issue. (Note the key word: require.)
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
</shameless self-promotion>
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
During the holiday season, in a religiously free country, the individual should be able to say whatever his faith (or lack of) dictates. Christians understand there are other holidays in the season and if a Jewish cashier said happy Hanukkah it would be a welcome acknowledgement of the season, and likely a bonding experience for a diverse nation.
The argument is being attacked from the wrong angle. The cashiers should have the right to express their holiday spirit in the traditional greating of their choice. Christians are upset at company policy banning the expression of the season that is as old as the nation. This business isn't far from being told you cannot wear a cross. (of course pagan symbols would be allowed) Where's the ACLU defending the cashier's rights.
I'm considering doing a test. Everyone remember the Piss Christ "art"? What do you think would happen if I put a bumper sticker on my car of that Kid Pissing, instead of on a ford, on Muhammed? (no different that the Darwin fish eating the Jesus fish)
It's ok to attack Christians, even at Hatrack. For some reason, attacking Christianity is not intolerance.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Yeah. And there is something not quite right about that.
I disagree. It is simply that 70% of the work force would take it off, so they close down.
There is also a difference between acknowledging the debt this country owes to a religion and advocating it above all others. While I found that site to be pompous and completely worthless, I have no issue at all with it being a national holiday.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:I was more commenting on your reference to the pledge of allegiance.
When the government, or institutions under the supervision of the government, require religious acknowledgment then it isn't a small issue. (Note the key word: require.)
Why should that be any bigger of an issue to you than a Christian getting upset when a U.S. employed mailman fails to say "Merry Christmas" at Christmastime? Is someone getting hurt? Is there some realistic likelihood that allowing such a thing would lead to slippery slope in which people did end up getting hurt?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: ... What do you think would happen if I put a bumper sticker on my car of that Kid Pissing, instead of on a ford, on Muhammed? (no different that the Darwin fish eating the Jesus fish)
I think I would fully support this.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Christians are upset at company policy banning the expression of the season that is as old as the nation.
Not exactly true. The Puritans did not celebrate Christmas. In fact it was illegal in Boston for a time. During the Revolution and after, it was considered an English holiday or a German one. Only fringe groups like Catholics celebrated. Even after that it wasn't really popular as a holiday until the nineteenth century.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Christians are upset at company policy banning the expression of the season that is as old as the nation.
No, they're not. Because they're not focusing their anger on stores (if any) that have actually banned the phrase "Merry Christmas."
quote:What do you think would happen if I put a bumper sticker on my car of that Kid Pissing, instead of on a ford, on Muhammed?
How would you make it recognizably Mohammed? Would there be a caption?
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:What do you think would happen if I put a bumper sticker on my car of that Kid Pissing, instead of on a ford, on Muhammed?
Here in the US? Depending on where you lived, either nothing would happen, you'd be verbally reprimanded (possibly very rudely) or you might be assaulted or have your vehicle vandalized.
Pretty much the same thing that would happen if you had a bumper sticker of a kid pissing on Jesus.
Atheists are much better behaved. Put on a bumper sticker of a kid pissing on nothing and they won't care at all. Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Atheists are much better behaved. Put on a bumper sticker of a kid pissing on nothing and they won't care at all.
Why don't photograph "Origin of the Species" in a jar of chimp urine and see what happens.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Yes but how would they respond to a bumper sticker of a kid pissing on "Origin of the Species"?
Eye rolling, probably. A similar response to what you'd get on a sighting of the Jesus fish eating the Darwin fish. (mal mistakenly suggested the reverse was the typical formulation. I've never actually seeing a variant where the Darwin fish is doing the eating. The Darwin fish alone was the response to the Jesus fish. Jesus fish eating Darwin fish was the Jesus fish people's response to that. Google it yourself to see the typical form.)
Famed "militant atheist" PZ Meyers made sure to include pages from the Quran and Origin when he made a show of desecrating a communion wafer a while back. The atheist response to the stunt was a mix of "atta boy" and "what a tool" but no one really complained about the disrespect paid to Origin.
EDIT: Hey, you edited!
quote:Why don't photograph "Origin of the Species" in a jar of chimp urine and see what happens.
Let me make it clear that I object all forms of urine-based artwork. I mean really. Ew.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Better, I think, to offer this poem , which describes my feeling of the photo better than I could.
And if Darwin were so honored, I'd be proud to display such a photo.
Mel Gibson's depiction was certainly no cleaner.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
The difference is this: As a Christian, the first time I saw a Darwin fish eating a Christian fish, I laughed. It is a funny statement on many levels. As you suggest, pissing on Muhamed could result in vandalism and angry words. How many Darwin fish cars have been vandalized and how many of the drivers have been verbally assaulted? Put Muhamed in a jar of piss and you will have a death warrant put out on you.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:As a Christian, the first time I saw a Darwin fish eating a Christian fish, I laughed
That's odd, because such an emblem doesn't exist. Go ahead and find an example online to prove otherwise. As I pointed out earlier, there is a common emblem of a Jesus fish eating a Darwin fish, but not the reverse.
quote:As you suggest, pissing on Muhamed could result in vandalism and angry words.
Right. Just like Piss Christ, which as attacked by teens with hammers in the gallery where it was displayed.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
MattP- I have seen a dinosaur eating a truth fish that was eating the darwin fish.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: How many Darwin fish cars have been vandalized and how many of the drivers have been verbally assaulted?
My Darwin fish had his front legs ripped off.
Which, ironically, seems to indicate that he has evolved from a quadruped to a biped.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Originally posted by scholarette: MattP- I have seen a dinosaur eating a truth fish that was eating the darwin fish.
Ha!
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: Which, ironically, seems to indicate that he has evolved from a quadruped to a biped.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
You can buy both the Darwin fish eating the Jesus fish and the Jesus fish eating the Darwin fish. Which do you think came first? Either way, I find it humorous. The Jesus fish car emblem came first and the Darwin was a response. Logically, would Darwinian symbols be a fish with legs? Christians for a very long time have put fish on their vehicles. It might be a fact that the majority are Jusus eating Darwin since 80% of Americans are Christian but the original concept was the other way around. As I said, I think it is funny either way. A jesus fish eating a symbol of Islam might get you killed though.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
I agree, mal. It is dumb to get offended at people dissing your religion. I'm glad you've come around on this.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
PC corporate or govt diss is something different. Companies and govt should stay out of it. Freedom of religion is not freedom from religion. Some of my best freinds are atheists. I like them for who they are, not what they believe. I can accept different belief systyems but I reject the insitutional black balling of mine.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: PC corporate or govt diss is something different. Companies and govt should stay out of it. Freedom of religion is not freedom from religion. Some of my best freinds are atheists. I like them for who they are, not what they believe. I can accept different belief systyems but I reject the insitutional black balling of mine.
I'm sorry, this just doesn't follow. Which institutions are we talking about? And if companies or government are, as you say "blackballing" religion, how would you improve the situation, if you still want them to stay out of it? I'm perfectly ok with companies being involved with religion, granted, but I am in favor of restrictions on government involvement, including such things as government workers expressing religious affiliation while at work. Are you not in favor of such restrictions? If so, what rationale can you provide for a worker's right to express religious affiliation while representing the government?
I might be a bit more extreme than most on this subject. I put up with the President attending church or talking about religion in his official capacity as President, mostly because he has practically no free time or private life, but I don't like it. For others who work for the government, their free time should be theirs to pursue whatever interests they have, but their payed time should be spent following the rules that the government itself has to follow. I would suggest no punishments for transgression in this matter, it would only surprise me if government workers weren't trained well enough to know the difference between public and private life.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:the original concept was the other way around
No, the original concept was the traditional "Christian" fish with legs. The Christian fish eating the Darwin fish was the Christian response. I have never seen a Darwin fish eating a Christian fish.
quote:A jesus fish eating a symbol of Islam might get you killed though.
*grin* A Truth fish biting down on a crescent moon would look remarkably like a fish on a hook, actually.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: How many Darwin fish cars have been vandalized and how many of the drivers have been verbally assaulted?
Depends entirely on the part of the country you are in. I know many people in the South who have been flipped off while driving down there with such stickers, as well as having their cars keyed.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:A jesus fish eating a symbol of Islam might get you killed though.
*grin* A Truth fish biting down on a crescent moon would look remarkably like a fish on a hook, actually.
Technically I'm not sure Islam *has* any symbols. Why would anybody so devoutly and fanatically Muslim take offense at a desecration of a symbol that is forbidden by their own religion?
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I don't have a Darwin fish because I love my car too much. During the recent presidential election I had to tape my bumper stickers to the inside of my windows to keep them from being pulled off.
Some people talk about "extreme conditions" but it's fairly common in my part of the country.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
May I ask the state? I've never heard of such a thing, in either a liberal or conservative area.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Some of my best freinds are atheists
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: May I ask the state? I've never heard of such a thing, in either a liberal or conservative area.
When's the last time you actually lived for an extended time in the states? LOL
Seriously, the bumper-sticker removal got pretty out-of-hand with the 2008 election. Pulling Obama signs out of people's yards was pretty big in a lot of places.
If the human race survives the next 40 years, it won't be because of God, Jesus, Mohammad, or any such. It also won't be because of Stalin, Mao, Richard Dawkins, or James Randi, either. Extremism re: religion, either for or against, is the tendency voted most-likely-to-put-us-back-in-the-Stone-Age, IMHO.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
I'm confused.
Mal commented that he would be OK with folks responding as they truly believed. If a member of the Hebrew Faith wished a customer, "Happy Hannukah" or if an African American wished him "Joyful Kwanza" he would take it in the meaning that it was meant.
But the web-site in question criticizes stores based not on published store policy, but on the comments made by individual employees.
So if an Atheist or Agnostic or a Pan-Holiday Believer wished them "Happy Holidays" they were automatically considered "Hostile to Christians".
Isn't that what is wrong with this whole mess?
The whole site and much of the Christian-first argument seems to say that there are Christian Americans who are good and others who will be tolerated.
I'm going to start selling my line of t-shirts and bumper stickers soon.
It will say, "NCA--Non-Christian American and Proud of it."
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven:
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: May I ask the state? I've never heard of such a thing, in either a liberal or conservative area.
When's the last time you actually lived for an extended time in the states? LOL
ermm... well 6 months out of the last... 3 and a half years.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: If a member of the Hebrew Faith
Hebrew Faith? Seriously?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yeah, Dan. "Jewish faith", if you please.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I'm guessing it is a slip of the typo . . . and have these strange visions of a world where every language corresponds to religious belief, and people who are multilingual are also members of the respective religions.
I am also imagining many fewer people knowing more than one or two languages Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Actually, he's used that and similar phrases before.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Some of my best freinds are atheists
he even lets them use his bathroom
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by steven:
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: May I ask the state? I've never heard of such a thing, in either a liberal or conservative area.
When's the last time you actually lived for an extended time in the states? LOL
ermm... well 6 months out of the last... 3 and a half years.
Yeah, that's why I asked. Besides, if you weren't here from mid-2008 to November 2008, you would still not have heard about any of the bumper sticker silliness, even if you had been here at other times. Not only that, IIRC, you live in a fairly liberal part of CA when you ARE in the states, which probably had McCain bumper sticker removal going on, instead of the other way around. LOL
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Sorry.
I don't know where I was told that Hebrew was synonymous with Jewish. (I was reading Jewish as more racial/cultural) Consider my now less ignorant.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Dan, certain segments of American Christendom seem to think they are synonymous, for reasons that have always eluded me. They're not.
Thanks. Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
It's likely from the Bible, which often uses 'Hebrew' as the demonym for the Jewish tribes. Which makes sense for the time being described, since Hebrew was indeed the language of the Jews at the time.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I'm curious how much of this is regional.
I live in northern NJ, so I'd imagine the Christian-to-non-Christian ratio is slightly different than a majority of the US.
I grew up in areas that had heavy Jewish populations and currently live in areas with heavy Hindu populations. There is a large amount of religous diversity (along with a very high population density) and a fair amount of atheism/agnosticism, so while Christianity is still the majority, it isn't as overwhelming a majority as it is in other states (say, the Dakotas).
It's a lot easier to say "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" than it is to make assumptions about someone's religious affiliation (and be wrong quite often).
That said, I'm in an interfaith marriage... and I don't see anything too dissonant with Christians celebrating Channukah. And, other than the names, there isn't much "christian" about evergreen (or plastic) trees, wreaths, Santa, elves, presents, stockings, reindeer, etc... that are really any more dissonant with Judaism than with Christianity.
But, I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
The word Hebrew was presumably derived from (and is definitely related to) the name Eber. Eber was an ancestor of Jacob (aka Israel) and his son Judah, from whom the term Judaism is derived.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
More likely it's from Avraham ha'Ivri. The Hebrew word for "Hebrew" actually is "Ivrit".
Nonetheless, the origin of the term is fairly irrelevant. (Which is why I didn't bring it up. I'm certainly aware of it!) I know no Jews who refer to themselves as "Hebrews" (except entirely in jest) and certain segments of Christianity (but not others, for whatever combination of historical and cultural reasons) do. *shrug* Whatever.
Two actual living breathing Jews have explained that it's not the correct term.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I feel that greeting should be appropriate to the receiver not the giver. I say "Happy Hanukkah" to my friend who celebrate that and "Merry Christmas" to people I know celebrate that and "Happy Holidays" when I don't know what they celebrate. This seems to me to be a perfectly sensible solution for what to say at a business where you don't know people well or at all.
Saying "Merry Christmas" because you celebrate Christmas makes about as much sense as saying Happy Birthday to other people on your birthday instead of on theirs.
If you dig at it, the only thing that a "Happy Holidays" greeting threatens is the assumption that everyone who matters celebrates Christmas.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Some of my best freinds are atheists
he even lets them use his bathroom
My best friend is a pro choice atheist. Is it that hard to believe? Why do you think I keep coming back to Hatrack? I have never posted on a neo-con site. I'm not looking for affirmation of my beliefs. I enjoy these interactions and I don't view those with different opinions as bad.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
quote:Originally posted by The White Whale:
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: How many Darwin fish cars have been vandalized and how many of the drivers have been verbally assaulted?
My Darwin fish had his front legs ripped off.
Which, ironically, seems to indicate that he has evolved from a quadruped to a biped.
Sorry to hear about your fish.... I agree, having the front legs ripped off only makes it a more potent symbol of evolution. Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: (Which is why I didn't bring it up. I'm certainly aware of it!)
There actually are people here who are not you, some of whom might not be "aware of it".
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Like you, clearly.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
I assume that was intended as some kind of gibe, but accusing me of being unaware of something that I posted doesn't really make a heck of a lot of sense.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
What you posted is no more accurate than it was the last time you posted it.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
The link between "Eber" and Hebrew" is certainly a reasonable supposition, which is what presumably means. By the way, I've only posted it once.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
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There seems to be some overlap with the Palin/Beck crowd. It is a minority, but not a tiny one, and definitely not a quiet one. O'Reilly has already started his "war on Christmas" crap this year, and he's also pretty popular. Presumably it resonates with some substantial portion of his audience.
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