This has to be on my top ten list of most bizarre international incidents. Usually people get in trouble for accidentally insulting someone, not for accidentally being nice.
I wonder if it was really an accident, of if it was on purpose and the official had to fall on the sword for political reasons.
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
Iran's ambivalence towards Israel is institutional and bureaucratic, the guy sending out the cards probably didn't notice that one of the 208 good wishes was headed for an enemy soccer coach and occupation force.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Hmmm, reminds me to update my email contact groups
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
'ambivalence'? That's a strange word to use describing Iran's stance towards Israel, airmanfour. Well, perhaps if you mean ambivalent about how un-nice they want to be to Israel, anyway.
(Also, 'occupation force'? Tch.)
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: 'ambivalence'? That's a strange word to use describing Iran's stance towards Israel, airmanfour. Well, perhaps if you mean ambivalent about how un-nice they want to be to Israel, anyway.
(Also, 'occupation force'? Tch.)
I was going to ignore you because you're annoying and obtuse, but you're right about "ambivalence" being the wrong word. Insert "negative valence" and we're done.
رژیم زیونیستی" خیای بد کار میکند. درست؟"
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Man, that seems needlessly hostile, airmanfour. Do you and Rakeesh have a history I'm not aware of, or is this a particularly sensitive subject for you, or what?
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
quote:Originally posted by airmanfour: رژیم زیونیستی" خیای بد کار میکند. درست؟"
Can someone tell me two things: 1) What this says 2) Where can I go online and dump this to translate it?
Thanks!
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
Mayday, mayday! Eject, eject!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I second both Noemon and just_me.
That did seem like a pretty unjustified response to Rakeesh, and I too would like to know both the translation and a place I could translate Arabic script.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
The bit in quotes none of the translators would handle, so I assume it's a transliteration of an English word.
The rest seems to be something like "_____ must be studied/examined".
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Maybe things would have been better if the Iran Soccer Chief had wished the Israeli Soccer Chief "Merry Christmas!" Then of course it could be debated whether it was nice or not.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I think it was something along the lines of him needing to have his head examined. I sent a request for a translation to friends on Facebook, though. Judging by context, it sounds like the kind of thing that would have gotten me dogpiled had I said it in reverse.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Actually, one of the words is "zionist", although he misspelled it.
Ah, that's because it's transliteration. What's in quotes at the beginning is "Zionist regime".
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
rivka, Lisa - thanks!
airmanfour - just wondering why you posed in Arabic in the first place?
I know that sometimes people post in their language for a variety of reasons and in some contexts it makes sense within the structure of the thread/post. In this case, though, I just don't see it and I'm wondering what the motivation was. (I'm trying not to guess because any guess I can think of at this point would be negative and I like to give people the benefit of the doubt...)
Thanks!
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
A lo mejor estaba un cabricho a alarde o jactarse de su conocimiento de una idioma extraña. Puedo Sentirse por eso.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Maybe, but if so, I fail to see the relevance. What does his ability to speak (or write) Arabic have to do with anything? Iranians don't even speak Arabic!
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
What's cabricho?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
airmanfour,
quote:I was going to ignore you because you're annoying and obtuse, but you're right about "ambivalence" being the wrong word. Insert "negative valence" and we're done.
*shrug* I don't recall interacting with you well enough to have an opinion on how annoying or obtuse you are or aren't. Though understandably I'm leaning a bit towards 'annoying' myself, just at the moment anyway.
Which part of my post was obtuse and annoying, or are those traits that are just 'me'? As you acknowledge, your choice of words was incorrect, so it couldn't have been that, unless you think it's obtuse and annoying to be corrected when you're wrong about something. Or my complaint about your use of the words 'occupation force'? I can see how that would be annoying, but really, it was a pretty politicized, one-sided statement, so I objected to it with as much detail as you offered it: none. It's technically correct but badly incomplete.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Maybe, but if so, I fail to see the relevance. What does his ability to speak (or write) Arabic have to do with anything? Iranians don't even speak Arabic!
Not that I can tell the difference between Arabic and Persian or read either, but the alphabet is the same.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Whim, fanciful, I think.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: airmanfour,
quote:I was going to ignore you because you're annoying and obtuse, but you're right about "ambivalence" being the wrong word. Insert "negative valence" and we're done.
*shrug* I don't recall interacting with you well enough to have an opinion on how annoying or obtuse you are or aren't. Though understandably I'm leaning a bit towards 'annoying' myself, just at the moment anyway.
Which part of my post was obtuse and annoying, or are those traits that are just 'me'? As you acknowledge, your choice of words was incorrect, so it couldn't have been that, unless you think it's obtuse and annoying to be corrected when you're wrong about something. Or my complaint about your use of the words 'occupation force'? I can see how that would be annoying, but really, it was a pretty politicized, one-sided statement, so I objected to it with as much detail as you offered it: none. It's technically correct but badly incomplete.
Rakeesh, airmanfour (somewhat rudely) called you obtuse because you completely missed that he was being sarcastic (and speaking from the Iranian government POV) when he used the term "occupation force".
Rewriting to get the intended meaning (as far as I can tell):
quote:Iran's negative valence towards Israel is institutional and bureaucratic, the guy sending out the cards probably didn't notice that one of the 208 good wishes was headed for an "enemy" soccer coach and "occupation force".
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by theamazeeaz: ... Not that I can tell the difference between Arabic and Persian or read either, but the alphabet is the same.
FWIW, Google Translate when the input language is set to "Detect language" picks Persian for the translation rather than Arabic.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
But the translators produce garbage when set to Farsi, and what seems like a real phrase when set to Arabic.
Edit: Ok, my Farsi-speaking co-worker came back, and he says it's Farsi -- from someone whose vocabulary and grammar is very, very off.
It's basically a slam at the Israeli government. More detail than that he'd just be guessing, because of their lousy grasp of the language.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
It is possible that it was machine translated into Persian in the first place. That tends to mess with grammar particularly.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
So what we have here is a coach possibly trying to be all sportsman-like, recanting his good sportsmanship with the approval, if not under the threat from the Iranian government--proving the Iranian Government's lack of good sportsmanship.
This is followed by Airmanfor and Rakeesh trying to be good sports about it, but Rakeesh soon falling into both a need for help in being a good sport toward Rakeesh and help with his spelling, especially the Farsi.
Your name calling on Rakeesh seems to harsh and your Farsi seems to be down right insulting, both to the common reader and to farsi linguists.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: It is possible that it was machine translated into Persian in the first place.
Likely so.
Dan, could you double-check those attributions? I think you have at least one "Rakeesh" that ought not to be.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Rakeesh, airmanfour (somewhat rudely) called you obtuse because you completely missed that he was being sarcastic (and speaking from the Iranian government POV) when he used the term "occupation force".
Well, since lots of people do refer to Israel that way, and since neither of those terms were specifically part of the story that was linked, and since it's difficult sometimes to know if someone is being sarcastic when there is no context to the remark at all...well, I don't think it's obtuse to have missed he was being sarcastic. If he was. And if he was, he could simply have said so and we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: What's cabricho?
A typo- "capricho" is synonymous with "caprice" but is more common in the object noun form in Spanish, whereas in English it's primarily a subject noun.
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: A lo mejor estaba un cabricho a alarde o jactarse de su conocimiento de una idioma extraña. Puedo Sentirse por eso.
Thanks to Babel Fish I think I get the point of this...
But if that's the reason it's pretty silly IMO. The whole purpose of posting on a forum is to communicate with others. I know we're international here but posting in a language known to very few of the participants seems, well, counterproductive at best and maybe even a little rude.
But that's just my $.02
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Occasionally I'll say something in Chinese, 99% of the time I'll translate it into English to the best of my abilities. But sometimes the way something is said in Chinese, especially when dealing with Chinese related topics is just better than any English structure I could give it.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
The associated connotations for words are sometimes different from their direct translations in English (if there is a direct translation) too.
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Occasionally I'll say something in Chinese, 99% of the time I'll translate it into English to the best of my abilities. But sometimes the way something is said in Chinese, especially when dealing with Chinese related topics is just better than any English structure I could give it.
I can appreciate that... and I have noticed that many do post in both languages this way and I am grateful. The problem is that when one doesn't and posts only in the language I don't know I have to take that and dump it into a translator which will probably give me garbage and make me guess what they are trying to say.
I'd think it'd be better, for example, to say it in Chinese and then at least say "this isn't quite right, but the gist of what this means is..." so at least us non-Chinese speaking people (the majority of the board, I'd say) would have a chance at understanding the point.
(Please don't think this is a huge deal BTW - it's just an annoyance to me that all of a sudden I have to stop reading to try and figure out what someone just said.)
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
לפעמים יש סיבה סבירה להשתמש בשפה אחרת
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: לפעמים יש סיבה סבירה להשתמש בשפה אחרת
Wow - how very helpful and productive.
Actually, this a good example of a seemingly (to me, at least) gratuitous/meaningless use of a language few on the forum can read. I see 2 possibilities: 1) A direct translation ("Sometimes there is good reason to use another language") is satisfactory, in which case there was no reason to post it in another language to begin with.
2) A direct translation is not satisfactory in which case you posted something that only a few would understand and risked people misunderstanding due to their need to use a translator.
If it's #1 you should have just posted the translation. It it's #2 the polite/considerate thing to do would be to clearly state that you are only talking to certain people, or create a thread for those who speak the language or deal with it via email etc.
In my opinion the post was a "shot" and is rude and counterproductive to the discussion at hand.
But let's try to fix that. I'm going to assume a direct translation is OK and that you really were just trying to make a clever point. I don't get it, though. Please explain (in english so I can understand) some of these good reasons for posting, in this forum which is primarily english "speaking", in another language. I'm particularly interested in how doing so promotes the dialog and reasoned discussion.
Thanks!
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: לפעמים יש סיבה סבירה להשתמש בשפה אחרת
Why yes, I have been working out lately. Thank you for noticing.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Well... I mean, you're sweaty. And kind of...odiferous.
Hard to miss, actually.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Oh, I completely misinterpreted her comment. Now I'm doubly embarassed!
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by just_me: ... ("Sometimes there is good reason to use another language") ... In my opinion the post was a "shot" and is rude and counterproductive to the discussion at hand.
Meh. From my POV, the translation is good. In fact, it is suspiciously good.* That indicates to me that the words in this case were chosen to be easily translated and thus intentionally not leaving people out.
Relax.
* After all, the first phrase easily demonstrates how one can (likely) accidentally create a very difficult to translate phrase. With some fiddling, it appears that even I can construct something like (potential language warning, just the first example that came to mind and not targeted) 仆你個街 which gives a less than helpful translation.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
Mi tocadisco esta discompuesto! Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Maybe, but I think it's going to clear up before long.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Hard to miss, actually.
If only it weren't!
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by just_me:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: לפעמים יש סיבה סבירה להשתמש בשפה אחרת
Wow - how very helpful and productive.
I live to serve.
quote:Originally posted by just_me: Actually, this a good example of a seemingly (to me, at least) gratuitous/meaningless use of a language few on the forum can read.
Correct. It was provided for just that purpose. That, and a little humor. Okay, very little, but still.
quote:Originally posted by just_me: I see 2 possibilities: 1) A direct translation ("Sometimes there is good reason to use another language") is satisfactory, in which case there was no reason to post it in another language to begin with.
That's even better than a literal translation, which would be "Sometimes there's a reasonable reason to use another language." See, nothing up my sleeve.
quote:Originally posted by just_me: If it's #1 you should have just posted the translation.
That would have been one option.
quote:Originally posted by just_me: In my opinion the post was a "shot" and is rude and counterproductive to the discussion at hand.
Define "shot". Is it anything like taking things way, way, way too seriously?
quote:Originally posted by just_me: But let's try to fix that. I'm going to assume a direct translation is OK and that you really were just trying to make a clever point. I don't get it, though. Please explain (in english so I can understand) some of these good reasons for posting, in this forum which is primarily english "speaking", in another language. I'm particularly interested in how doing so promotes the dialog and reasoned discussion.
Thanks!
אין בעד מה
ברצינות: אין
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
I'm all for light-heartedness and didn't really consider this that big of a deal topic-wise, but when someone says "this annoys me" and you do it you're already pushing rude. If after they indicate that it wasn't appreciated you DO IT AGAIN you've definately crossed the line from humor to just being an outright jerk.
It doesn't even matter what "it" is - it's just an issue of showing a modicum of respect for others.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by just_me: ... If after they indicate that it wasn't appreciated you DO IT AGAIN you've definately crossed the line from humor to just being an outright jerk.
It occurs to me that I don't appreciate your posting in this thread. Please don't post again otherwise you'll be an outright jerk Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by just_me: ... If after they indicate that it wasn't appreciated you DO IT AGAIN you've definately crossed the line from humor to just being an outright jerk.
It occurs to me that I don't appreciate your posting in this thread. Please don't post again otherwise you'll be an outright jerk
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Why yes, I have been working out lately. Thank you for noticing.
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