I'm honestly curious here, not trying to disparage. Also, I honestly tried to work the topic in the most descriptive way without going too long. You may disbelieve either claim, but they are true.
Anyways, the question is: as a parent do you put much if any credence in theories, ideas or advice from those who have no children? I don't know how I feel on the subject, though of course the wrong answer may make my opinion moot as I am childless . I do get frustrated when parents (particularly new parents) repeatedly inform me or others that until one has children of their own, one knows nothing about anything. Aside from the poor presentation skills these individuals clearly have (or don't have) access to, it might be a valid point.
I recall on my mission when I was training (when you are the first companion of a newly minted missionary, teaching them pretty much everything about everything) someone who had never trained before constantly tried to give me advice on what to do or how to do it and it irritated me to no end. I recognize that training on a mission is at best a pale imitation of some of the struggles (and blessings!) of parenthood but that only reinforces the point.
Opinions? Being a non-parent, I'd even consider accepting ideas from those other poor saps without offspring.
Hobbes Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Ahhh! The eternal question. Is experience actually necessary . . . ? Well, let's see.
Before I became a mother, I had very strong opinions about what consituted decent parenting, and I was not shy about sharing them. This actually was rather counter-productive (in hindsight), but that was mostly due to the fact that I was also a less than shining example of tact, compassion or honest desire to be helpful.
Then I became pregnant.
I consulted every written work I could lay my hands on, took every class I could possibly take, and spent lots of time with parent educators, professionals, etc. I swore to do everything completely different from how my parents had done it. As a matter of fact, I was fairly sure that if I just took the exact opposite stance from my parents, I would be just about perfect.
Then I gave birth. (There's no smiley that adequately expresses that time. *grin*)
I have learned that parents grow at least as much as their progeny. The lessons can be both painful and joyful. But, it's important to stay open to the experiences and changes and growth.
I very rarely give parenting advice, unless asked for it -- and even then I hesitate. Most of the time, parents just need some reassurance and comfort and support.
for parents
I guess it's important to know that all families are different. All parents are different. All children are different. There is no one right way to do anything under the sun when it comes to the inexact science of raising a human being. *Insert relieved smiley -- most parents are happy to know there are many ways to do this job -- relieves some of the pressure*
My son is soon to turn 16. I expect the learning and growing will continue for both of us -- throughout all the years of our life. Kind of exciting, yes?
Anyway. Probably too long of an answer. Sorry.
/de-lurk
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
If you are going to apologize for anything it should be for the excessive use of smilies. Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
But, this is a Hobbes' thread, and HE likes smilies! Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
Fellow childless type here. I think it probably depends on the kind of advice and how well you know the person you're offering it to.
A random stranger in the supermarket doesn't want to hear your advice on what to feed their kid. Unless their kid has big red circles under their eyes - then they might want someone to mention that some kids get that from a red food dye allergy.
Corporal punishment is even trickier, mostly because different kids respond differently to it. I'd either have to be in such a position of trust that I'd watched and disciplined the child myself or witness pretty clear abuse to feel comfortable broaching the subject.
Most people like their kids and want to do the best they can for them. Those people probably don't need my advice. And the ones who don't enjoy their kids probably don't care about anyone's advice. I'd expect the exceptions to those ideas to happen very rarely, and, in my particular case, probably to involve food allergies I have.
I'd feel quite comfortable pointing out the signs of food allergies I have in someone else. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:as a parent do you put much if any credence in theories, ideas or advice from those who have no children?
When they're talking about theories that apply to kids in general-- for example, methods of discipline that are appropriate-- then I think they have a right to have their opinions heard. Everyone has been a child at some point; everyone has an opinion about what childhood meant, and how it could have been made better.
When they're talking about specific individuals-- my parenting, or my children-- no. They don't have a clue. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I agree with Scott.
Lots of people spend a lot of time with children who aren't parents (e.g. myself) and it's a bit silly if the only people who we allow to have an opinion on the way children are is people who are individually bringing up a child or children.
I may have overstepped my bounds once or twice, but there are certain things that I've felt very strongly about.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: I do get frustrated when parents (particularly new parents) repeatedly inform me or others that until one has children of their own, one knows nothing about anything.
If someone who is childish is giving points on how to be a parent, then I don't put much stock in what they say. You don't know what it's like to be a parent until you are a parent anymore then you know what it is like to be a missionary until you are out in the field--it doesn't matter how many times you went on splits with stake missionaries!
If someone has had training in teaching methods (like a teacher) or how people learn (like a psychologist) then they probably have something I could learn that is much more valuable then my own experiences. Unless they are a professional, I turn to parents for parenting advice.
But I totally agree that parents who think they have unlocked some mystery of life since becoming a parent are annoying. I also don't see how being a parent gives you access to some secret stash of knowledge/experience on non-child-rearing related topics.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
As a new father I take advice from everyone, as long as they are not rude about what we have already decided to do.
Beforehand, as a teacher, I would occasionally have people ask me for advice. But I truly think there is a huge difference between classroom management and household management.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
Even having children of your own may not help much when it comes to giving advice about other people's children. All people, children and adult, have different personalities, experiences, and environments. There is no one answer that works with all combinations of children and parents. The only general advice I would give to all parents would be to observe their own children closely and focus more on desired results than particular methods.
--Mel
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:There is no one answer that works with all combinations of children and parents.
YES.
I think it's slightly more common for an actual parent to have come to this realization - because they have found one of their former assumptions or ideals requires a little reassessment - than for non-parents.
But I certainly see plenty of parents assuming that what works for them should work for everyone, too.
I think you should go ahead and offer advice or input anytime you think it'll help, whether you're a parent or not, but keep in mind: 1) Obvious solutions are obvious. 2) Ideas are easier to receive than instructions. 3) You have no clue about Scott R's kids.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
If I'm looking for suggestions and someone says, "Have you tried xyz" then I don't care whether or not they are a parent, any idea is worth considering.
If I'm not looking for suggestions and someone says "you have to xyz or your kids will turn out terrible/never learn __/be rude monsters" then I don't care whether or not they are a parent, I don't want their advice.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
You have to eat some of your children, or the remaining ones will never know how much more precious they are to you.
I'm sorry, dkw, but it's proven fact.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Although I don't have kids, I agree with Scott and dkw.
Although my general default is to ignore all unsolicited advice. I find that it more often serves the interest of the speaker than the reciever.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
If it's from the person's own childhood, or something read that was passed on in a good context, (like dkw said), why not?
Though to be fair, I've witnessed silently three incidents as a teen/20-something in which I would have loved to tell the parents of the children that they did not know what they were doing. But I didn't. Should I have? Do I have to have kids to have any advice for these people?
1. El Paso airport. The flight was delayed, and one group of adults (both parents, and at least one other companion) could not control their problem child (possibly some diagnosed issue), which was screaming and running around the airport to the annoyance of basically everyone. The parents could not get the kid to sit and shut up so they could nurse their own migraines in relative peace.
But that's what they missed. Children, unlike adults, don't sit in chairs for a half an hour and do nothing very well. They need some sort of entertainment. This is for your sanity, not theirs. All the other parents either had some sort of toys with their kids, or were holding them. I remember when I waited with my parents for the doctor, my mom would play tic tac toe and teach me how to draw 3d boxes. Sure, you don't want to spoil your kid, but you can't expect a special needs kid to sit down, shut up and do nothing for an unspecified amount of time. One adult needed to switch off playing with that kid.
Movie theater, Spider-man 2. Little kid sits down next to me. Dad sits next to him, tells kid to be quiet during his movie. Kid immediately starts talking, dad yells at kid to be quiet. Thing is, the kid is telling dad, he can't see the screen. It's not stadium seating. The guy directly in front of the kid is a huge grown-up who is blocking his view. I remember how grown-ups sat in front of me when I was little and I could never see the screen. The dad is behind an empty space for a wheelchair, and has a perfect view if he only switched. Dad misses this entirely, kid is miserable.
Doctor's office. Pediatrics. Six-year old boy and three-year old girl make a break for the toys in the middle of the room. Boy begins to explore, mom drags to the little girl back to do her hair. The girl is somewhat fighting because there are toys in the room and she sees them. Mom puts tiara in girls' hair, girl pushes back like it's a headband. Mom tells her that it's not how they are worn, and sets it atop her head like it's a crown. After a bit of this, she's allowed to play with her brother, but her mom doesn't seem to like the concept. Meanwhile, any doubt I had that women's underrepresentation in the sciences is due to social conditioning, not biological ability has been erased.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Even though you had just watched some of that social conditioning at work?
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Re-read that, rivka.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:You have to eat some of your children, or the remaining ones will never know how much more precious they are to you.
Did Slash just come back and steal Scott's handle?
I would never give unsolicited parenting advice.
And while I have never raised any children, I have done a significant amount of reading on the subject of cognition and human behavior, and have learned much about learning and memory both from the psychological standpoint and the neuorscientific standpoint. I think it would be foolish for someone to completely ignore any insights I may have solely because I don't have any children of my own. But it doesn't seem like anyone in this thread is arguing to ignore the advice of childless individuals, so my point is somewhat moot!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw: Re-read that, rivka.
*does*
Ah! Ok, got it.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
Sometimes it appears as though everyone thinks they're an expert. Even well-meaning advice often seems like, having seen someone running forty feet in the middle of a marathon, the onlooker advises the runner to breathe more slowly and move their legs more quickly.
Like Shan, I probably would have given more weight to well-meaning non-parents' advice before becoming a parent myself, though my nature is such that I was never likely to force such advice on others. Sometimes such simple non-interference is difficult, though. At one point I visited the house of friends with a new toddler who also had a steep open staircase to the basement with no door, pieces of broken mirror at ankle level from a craft project, and an open mason jar of lighter fluid on a stool in their backyard. Argh!
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote: You have to eat some of your children, or the remaining ones will never know how much more precious they are to you.
Did Slash just come back and steal Scott's handle?
You're kidding me. Please-- Slash doesn't eat children. He eats adults...or at least reasonably mature young people.
[ January 05, 2010, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:When they're talking about specific individuals-- my parenting, or my children-- no. They don't have a clue.
I'd have to think that parents who completely ignore specific advice about their children often are making a mistake, at least when that advice comes from people who also know their children - teachers, parents of their child's friends, etc. That's because parents tend to have a blind spot that grows as the child gets older and more independent, and the only way to fill that blind spot is by getting information from other people.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I'd have to think that parents who completely ignore specific advice about their children often are making a mistake, at least when that advice comes from people who also know their children - teachers, parents of their child's friends, etc. That's because parents tend to have a blind spot that grows as the child gets older and more independent, and the only way to fill that blind spot is by getting information from other people.
Well, not the ONLY way. You can also establish a trusting relationship with your child early on so that when they hit their independence, they're willing to share their trials and difficulties with you rather than cut you out of the loop.
It's important to know your child; that can be facilitated by teachers and other adult authority figures who have responsibility for the child when you can't be there.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Scott, I cannot wait until you have a couple 14-17 year-olds.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote: You have to eat some of your children, or the remaining ones will never know how much more precious they are to you.
Did Slash just come back and steal Scott's handle?
You're kidding me. Please-- Slash doesn't eat children. He eats adults...or at least reasonably mature young people.
hmmm...good point.
quote: Sometimes such simple non-interference is difficult, though. At one point I visited the house of friends with a new toddler who also had a steep open staircase to the basement with no door, pieces of broken mirror at ankle level from a craft project, and an open mason jar of lighter fluid on a stool in their backyard.
okay, I amend my above statement to "I would almost never give unsolicited parenting advice"
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
I often feel like I could contribute something valuable, but I rarely do because as often as not, parents seem pretty defensive about what they're doing.
For example, I have a friend who is always yelling, sometimes even screaming at her daughter (who is a little younger than 2 years) when she wants her to do something. The daughter, in turn, has some emotional issues and is always crying in anger and hitting other kids. I remember once watching the mother coming up, grabbing her daughter and yelling "No! Don't hit other kids!" at the top of her lungs.
Now I firmly believe parents should always remain calm and in control in front of their kids. It's not necessarily bad for them to express some anger, but they need to do it in a controlled way. If you yell at a child or show anger, the child learns yelling and anger are acceptable reactions. If you correct a child gently, talking reasonably, being specific and precise with your physical touch and gestures, you not only teach them their anger isn't accomplishing anything (by getting a reaction from you), you also teach them far better by example how to express themselves calmly.
This is a big frustration of mine. Especially when I see parents with uncontrolled children in supermarkets, who are yelling at or threatening their children. I despise threats. I think you should constantly remind children of the consequences of their actions, but when they start acting out, immediately enforce those consequences. (or if you have to enforce it later, say "remember how you were misbehaving? This is why you're in time out/whatever")
Of course, I'm 20 and don't have any kids, so most parents would, at best, ignore anything I have to say. And maybe for a good reason.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Scott, I cannot wait until you have a couple 14-17 year-olds.
Meh. They've gotten pretty stringy by that time. Too late to eat 'em; I'll probably send mine to CA.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:This is a big frustration of mine. Especially when I see parents with uncontrolled children in supermarkets, who are yelling at or threatening their children. I despise threats. I think you should constantly remind children of the consequences of their actions, but when they start acting out, immediately enforce those consequences. (or if you have to enforce it later, say "remember how you were misbehaving? This is why you're in time out/whatever")
This is very good advice. It is very, very hard to do it consistently.
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
I hate seeing people yell at their kids. In Hawaii, Justin and I were walking down from Diamond Hill park which is a fairly steep crater edge (I think about an hour and half walk upwards). There was a woman climbing up with a young boy, maybe 4 years old, who was yelling at the boy to stop crying because he was "ruining everyone's vacation." No mom, you're ruining everyone's vacation. Then Justin and I got in a discussion about the blame in that situation (as I thought it was unreasonable to expect the kid to make the climb, and he thought the kid might be a brat). Not 50 feet later, I saw another kiddo cry and her dad was AWESOME. He crouched next to her, hugged her, said nice things, and she cheered up just fine.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Scott, I cannot wait until you have a couple 14-17 year-olds.
To speak a little more seriously to this:
You're right. I don't know that all the work we've put into showing the troupe that they can trust M and I will work after all. Although, we've had some significant incidences in the past couple years where they've had the opportunity to not tell us of things that have happened to them/things that they've done: and every time they've trusted us with their fears and tragedies. There is precedent for the belief that continuing to behave the way that we are behaving may produce consistent behaviors from the children.
And if not-- well. That's where unconditional love comes in, isn't it? Even if they feel they can't confide in me, I try to let them know that I will always love them, and support their good decisions, and help them recover from their bad ones.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
A problem I have with parenting advice from childless people is that it's frequently given with the comfort of the advice-giver in mind, rather than the needs of the child. "I'm annoyed with this situation, therefore I must speak out until it is resolved." SO much unsolicited advice comes from people who don't have the patience to deal with small children, and sometimes, for those people, only having a child would teach them that patience.
I'm not talking about all childless people. This has just been my experience so far. And my kids are far from disobedient or rowdy.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I don't know that all the work we've put into showing the troupe that they can trust M and I will work after all.
Actually not what I meant at all. I have every reason to think you and your wife are doing an EXCELLENT job with your kids.
It's just that teenagers are so DIFFERENT than younger kids. Irrational in an entirely different, and often unpredictable, way. I love my parents dearly, trusted them quite a bit, and hardly talked to them during my teenage years. Especially about personal stuff.
I do now. And I cannot really tell you why I didn't then, except that it probably has something to do with the degree of stubbornness I inherited from both of them.
And while my almost-16 talks to me and her dad a fair bit, we also make sure that she has other people (specific teachers, older (late teens or early 20s) friends) to talk to, who we know, and who we know will tell us if there's anything we need to know. (And she knows that while they don't tell us everything, they'll pass along anything critical.)
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: This is very good advice. It is very, very hard to do it consistently.
Yes, and children are notorious for noticing inconsistency, too. They may not remember something you asked them to do 5 minutes ago, but they can bring up minor grievances from years ago in a pinch. Or so I've heard.
Whatever I know about parenting I've learned from watching friends who are parents, and also from my own parents when I think back on things they did. For example, I have a friend with 3 sons, and whenever one of them gets a little too rowdy or emotional, he'll take them by the hand and lead them to a quiet corner of the room, then put his arm around them and whisper in their ear. The boy in question responds by whispering back (I think this is an automatic response with children), and within a minute or so he'll be completely calm.
This is something incredibly simple, but I'd have never thought of it if I didn't observe it. (and obviously, many parents never do think of it) I think i should start writing down all of the good techniques I see now, so that when I'm a dad I can remember them.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
The thing about children is that everyone has *some* related experience, however slight. If nothing else, everyone was a child at one point, and can reflect on that when considering what to do with children now. Added to that, a lot of people have experience with younger family members, baby-sitting, or teaching.
I kind of agree with the others who say that speaking to non-parents in general terms is ok but speaking about MY children isn't so much. But I'm going to go a step further -- I feel the same way when talking to other parents!
No one else in the world is the mother/father of my children.
One thing I noted when I had children, which applies to newborns...in our current society almost no one, save for the actual parents, ever have contact with a baby less than about 6 weeks old. We pretty much stay home with them for 6 weeks, rarely get baby-sitting at that age, most daycares won't take them at that age, etc.
Not that I was all that eager to pass around my newborns, but it was an observation I made. I certainly had never in my life done more than hold a newborn for a few short minutes.
So I am incredibly disinclined to take unsolicited advice on newborns, except from other parents -- and even then, recent parents. My parents completely forgot what I was like at that age! (At least they admitted it and didn't really try to advise me.)
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I find that I rarely give advice (parenting related or otherwise) even when it is solicited, I just rarely feel comfortable thinking I have anything of value to offer when it comes to advice. This is a more recent phenomena for me, maybe the last few years but that's parenthetical. When it comes up most for me is when there's a discussion on child-rearing or children in general.
I know very little about children seeing as how I don't much like children (you have no idea how incredibly popular this makes me with the Mormon girls I spend time with, but that's another story too) but as I do on just about every subject I have an opinion on them! I am torn though, does having a child give someone fundamental insight into children and child rearing or just a very specific case that then skews their perspective the same way someone whose brother's life was saved by not wearing his seat belt and thus refuses to believe that it's still safer to wear one.
I tend to believe that someone who does (has) have (had) children is in a significantly better position to comment, but not to the exclusion of all other opinions and so often seems to be the case in conversations I'm involved in.
Of course that's probably a wagon we can all hop on because it's so hopelessly unspecific that we can each draw our own line mentally and thus be OK with it even though every one's definition will actually be wildly different.
Hobbes Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: I am torn though, does having a child give someone fundamental insight into children and child rearing
This is the point I was trying to make. I actually take exception to the judgment of other parents almost as much as to the judgment of other non-parents. For example, I don't care how many parents justify the behavior, I do not believe that hitting a child (spanking) is appropriate. Moreover, I find much of the anecdotal evidence in support of this to be flawed.
That's a hot-button issue, but there are plenty of others as well.
Advice is free, and you get what you pay for.
Posted by Hank (Member # 8916) on :
I feel uniquely qualified to respond because I'm not a parent. I'm a professional parent--a live-in nanny.
Now, I generally listen to any advice that comes my way, but I try to treat it like the synonym function in MS Word: sometimes you get exactly what you were looking for, but sometimes it's completely inappropriate and off-base. Partly this is because, as has been said, children are drastically different from one another, but it's also true that people have different end results in mind when they think of raising children.
Remember that thread recently about the definition of a "good" or "bad" person? Parenting is the practical application of that thread.
So, if I'm dragging a screaming child back to the car, it may be because I am a mean parent who doesn't listen to or care about my kids needs. It may also be that I simply refuse to negotiate with terrorists. But sometimes, it might be that I am absolutely at the end of my rope and I can't deal with the situation effectively at that moment.
Because that's the great secret that only parents "really" get: having a child in your life is the most terrifying, draining, intense experience imaginable. It's not just, "Oh, I love them so much. You don't have kids so you don't know love." It's "How can I love them so much when at least once a day I think they're plotting to destroy my sanity? How can I love and cherish someone I am so angry at sometimes?"
I recently read of a study that showed that toddlers require some kind of parental comfort or guidance or assistance an average of SIX TIMES PER SECOND. That is insane.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you haven't had a child really in your life in a way comparable to parenting, there ARE things about parenting that you just don't get, but that doesn't mean you can't see things that parents don't. Any input that is really in the spirit of sharing can be helpful. And if the parent seems to get frustrated, don't take it personally. Their baseline frustration was already pretty high.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I don't like giving advice to people, but when people are harsh towards a child it makes my heart squeeze a little. I'd like to have kids, but I really wouldn't take advice from my parents, especially my mother because her solution to every problem I had was to hit me with a belt even when I was getting chemo, but I feel bad for her because she got worse as a kid. So when I have children and their solution is to whip that child I will give them a death stare. I don't even want to try that kind of discipline. There's plenty of people who are parents who expect their children to politely ask to be breast fed thinking that crying is a form of manipulating their parents. Would I take parenting advice from Pearl, Ezzo or Dobson knowing their advice is outdated and not very empathetic to the child? Nope. I'd take advice from the women at Gentle Christian Mothers and parents who don't believe in not hitting or yelling and being harsh towards kids because they are KIDS. There's many people who don't have children who at least know about attachment and basic child psychology. I only discovered about attachment because I want to adopt one day and that is good for biological children too.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Six times a second? Did you mean minute? Six times a second seems like it's is unmeaningfully small.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
SIX TIMES A SECOND! THAT'S WHY WE'RE ALL INSANE!
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
quote:SIX TIMES PER SECOND. That is insane.
Holy shit! I need to start working on my reflexes! I had no idea being a parent required so much dexterity.
Posted by Hank (Member # 8916) on :
Yeah, yeah. Teach me to post without proofreading.
I'm just gonna go cry myself to sleep.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:Because that's the great secret that only parents "really" get: having a child in your life is the most terrifying, draining, intense experience imaginable. It's not just, "Oh, I love them so much. You don't have kids so you don't know love." It's "How can I love them so much when at least once a day I think they're plotting to destroy my sanity? How can I love and cherish someone I am so angry at sometimes?"
Excellent point. This is part of why I don't like kids.
quote:I guess what I'm saying is that if you haven't had a child really in your life in a way comparable to parenting, there ARE things about parenting that you just don't get, but that doesn't mean you can't see things that parents don't. Any input that is really in the spirit of sharing can be helpful. And if the parent seems to get frustrated, don't take it personally. Their baseline frustration was already pretty high.
Pretty decent summing up I think, not that I would know that being the whole point of the thread. Anyways, I think that's great advice. Like I said, for myself I'm not much into giving advice of any kind, but perhaps I will be more assertive when it comes to abstract discussions of parenting or children in general. It seems like most of the parents that responded are more concerned with getting a lot of unsolicited advice to the point of only responding to that concern. I definitely feel their pain (not as parents obviously, as one who recieves that kind of 'help' from others constantly) as a single Mormon (someone back me up here). Not that anyone has to respond but this makes me curious: how many of you have used consciously or not the 'I'm a parent and your not' (trump) card in conversations not directly about your children? Would you think it was wrong and either not do it, or later wish you hadn't, or do you feel it's a valid appeal?
Hobbes Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Ultimately, if someone is around the kid frequently, their opinion matters more to me than the opinion of someone who is seeing the kid rarely or for the first time. That would be as true for complete strangers as it would be for relatives or even professionals (who, one hopes, would not be quick to render an opinion after only one or a small number of observations. Whether they are a parent themselves or not wouldn't necessarily affect my opinion much. Afterall, there are lots of parents out there whose opinions I wouldn't be interested in regardless of how much experience they have. There are some people who's opinions I would value even though they have never raised a child.
Posted by Anthonie (Member # 884) on :
I will never have the opportunity to have children.
I don't give much parenting advice. Rather, my closest role in child-rearing is to play with my nephews and nieces until they are overly-stimulated, tell them bizarre things (think Calvin's dad from Calvin and Hobbes comic), and giggle or laugh hysterically when they are doing/saying things they aren't supposed to. I am not being intentionally sadistic or obtrusive either; many times it is amazingly comically original the way kids rile their parents.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hobbes:
quote:Because that's the great secret that only parents "really" get: having a child in your life is the most terrifying, draining, intense experience imaginable. It's not just, "Oh, I love them so much. You don't have kids so you don't know love." It's "How can I love them so much when at least once a day I think they're plotting to destroy my sanity? How can I love and cherish someone I am so angry at sometimes?"
Excellent point. This is part of why I don't like kids.
I don't like kids, either. I do love mine, though. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I am not much interested in babies, but kids start to get interesting right around 7-8 years old. At that point, they are fantastic. Younger than that is okay if they are with their older siblings and trying very hard to fit in with them.
Babies and toddlers are cute but boring. But kids - verbal, mobile, thoughtful kids - are fantastic.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:do you feel it's a valid appeal?
In a nutshell: yes. There are some things about parenting that you simply won't understand until you have been a parent, in the same way that there are things about being poor you won't understand unless you have been poor. Et cetera.
There is a value to life experience that complements (and in some cases trumps) theoretical knowledge of a subject. In my own experience, I find that people who have not been parents find it far easier to make sweeping statements about what is or is not "best" -- since, as people who have not been parents, they have not learned the first lesson of parenting, which is: it depends. Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Babies and toddlers are cute but boring. But kids - verbal, mobile, thoughtful kids - are fantastic.
Babies aren't so bad. They don't do much but they also don't need much from you. Hold them and go on with your life. Toddlers, though...they require attention and on their terms, talking to them about the things that interest them which most unfortunately, hold no earthly interest for me.
This is one of a great many reasons why I'm done having kids.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I love babies and toddlers. But I think twos and threes are my favorite. Everything is amazing to them, everything is new, but they still have their own insight to share. I think getting to know a three-year-old as a person is one of most exciting things you can do.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I like the kind of kid where they have interesting thoughts to share, but they can dress, go to the restroom, and occasionally feed themselves just fine.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:how many of you have used consciously or not the 'I'm a parent and your not' (trump) card in conversations not directly about your children? Would you think it was wrong and either not do it, or later wish you hadn't, or do you feel it's a valid appeal?
I'm not sure how many times I've done it unconsciously. I think it is more a trait of people a certain age or personality type. I would very rarely contradict anyone in person. I also don't know if I've often been in the position of people criticizing my parenting. Believe it or not, I usually get comments on how well behaved they are. Well, except the youngest. I think if someone was going to comment, it might be that I baby the youngest, who is six, too much. And she's tall for her age. But a lot of our child management is steered by my husband. I would be a lot more permissive left to myself, or if I had a husband who didn't assume my motherly instincts should be more British.
I was sitting in church this week thinking how nice it is that they are older now. No one has to be fed or changed or taken out screaming or drawn pictures for, even. But I dreamt I had a new baby last night and I was so sad to wake up.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Babies and toddlers are adorable. It's teenagers I'm afraid of. Big tall teenagers.
Also, I continue to be annoyed by pro-spanking folks, only in the sense that it seems kind of warped to me to hit a person out of love when hitting... hurts... Pain sucks. I can't stand pointless pain and I can't imagine doing that to, say, a tiny toddler grabbing something that I, as an adult, should have kept out of his or her reach.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I don't think most pro-spankers believe that spanking is the way to handle a curious toddler, though.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: I don't think most pro-spankers believe that spanking is the way to handle a curious toddler, though.
They kind of do.. especially extreme nutwits like Pearl who will show a child something than hit them. And the child is usually 4 months. It's a good thing that most people are not like that. But still, I hate that whole hitting thing so much. It really bugs me.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: I don't think most pro-spankers believe that spanking is the way to handle a curious toddler, though.
I wish I believed this. Not that I've taken any polls, but it definitely does not coincide with my anecdotal evidence.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: I don't think most pro-spankers believe that spanking is the way to handle a curious toddler, though.
In practice, most "pro-spankers" are just considered so not because of informed participation in a spanking-inclusive parenting theory. They spank their kids because they don't really have any other effective methods that let them feel they have a lot of control over their kids, or because they often just don't know what else to do, and/or because spanking elicits immediate compliance and makes them feel as though it is too effective not to use.
So you get a hell of a lot of parents who do indeed do that.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Even among those who have thought it through there's a wide range in what you could call "pro-spanking." From those who think that kids will never learn respect if they're not spanked so you need to look for reasons to spank them (those would be the ones that Syn is constantly railing against) to those who'd rather not spank but think it's acceptable in some very specific cases.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Samp, right. I consider a pro-spanker to be someone who believes in the effectiveness of spanking. A lot of parents seem to lash out and spank their kids thoughtlessly, but I'm not sure they've spent time developing an opinion on any kind of parenting method. I wouldn't consider them pro-spanking any more than I would consider someone who's never formed an opinion on abortion to be "pro-life" just because they never got one.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: Samp, right. I consider a pro-spanker to be someone who believes in the effectiveness of spanking. A lot of parents seem to lash out and spank their kids thoughtlessly, but I'm not sure they've spent time developing an opinion on any kind of parenting method. I wouldn't consider them pro-spanking any more than I would consider someone who's never formed an opinion on abortion to be "pro-life" just because they never got one.
I don't think this is a good analogy because the parents in question, however unstudied or thoughtless, do use spanking as a strategy.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
In as far as reacting without planning to alter the behavior in any meaningful way can be called a strategy. Personally, I don't think it's enough to just stop a negative behavior. I think you have to teach the child a positive one to replace it with.
Unfortunately, I do find a great many people to be reactive and unwilling to plan ahead.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
If someone observed my children and/or my interaction with them, noticed something they percieved to be a problem, thought a lot about it and came up with an idea they thought would possibly help, and pulled me aside privately (at a time when I was relaxed and not busy), and non-judgementally said, "I noticed x was happening the other day. I am not criticising, but I had a thought. I don't know if you have tried y, but I thought it was worth mentioning. I apologize for butting in, I just wanted to say something in case I could help," I would probably have no problem with it. Especially if they then accepted whatever my answer was, even if it was, "I would never do that!" or "Thanks but no thanks" or "What you don't understand about the situation is z" or "we don't consider it to be a problem because..."
If a scientist, with as little bias as possible, published a repeatable, scientifically valid study on childrens' behavior, learning ability, etc., using methodology that was not flawed as far as people who know their ways around a study can tell, I would definitely also consider that if the study was made available to me, whether or not that scientist had children.
Someone who had worked with kids for many years on a close level and seen thousands of kids of differing personalities, etc.-- I'd probably consider their input. Similarly, someone who had been primary or full-time caregiver (like, a nanny) for a younger sibling, friend's child, niece or nephew, etc. on a daily basis for many years-- provided that they realize that not all children are the same (some parents don't realize that either) and that they really do have a different relationship than the child's acutal parents in most cases (there are exceptions, but generally.)
Other than that, I think childless people are free to have their opinions, and form their own child-rearing philosophies, and I'd generally appreciate it if they do not share them with me. There are exceptions of course. I treat those exceptions as they come.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Conversely, I rarely accept parents' advice on children just because they have children. There are lots of parents who have miserable skills and tactics. That people in general turn out like they do (generally civilized) is more a testament to human resilience that the general skill level of parents.
Additionally, people general give advice that makes them comfortable with their own choices. So, parents' advice is usually more concerned with justifications their past than a concern about the kid in question's future.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Conversely, I rarely accept parents' advice on children just because they have children.
Why are you asking anyone for advice on children?
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
My sister in law are on opposite sides with regards to parenting styles. She is always giving me "advice" and has even sent me parenting books. Watching our two kids play together, I felt like my parenting methods were totally validated. However, our stated goals are quite different, so she probably felt that her methods were validated by watching my child.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Accept as in give credence to.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
I am more likely to give credence to someone whose philosophpies resonate with mine than not, whether or not they have children. I almost never give unsolicited parenting advice, except as Avidreader noted, with potential food allergies. And I know no one who has ever taken that.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: I don't think most pro-spankers believe that spanking is the way to handle a curious toddler, though.
Well, when "curious" means "let's go running into the street" or "what's this on the stove?", the immediate compliance and fear generated by spanking is actually a good thing.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
We don't spank, but I'm quite sure that if we did "immediate compliance" would not be the reaction we'd get.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Which goes back to the whole each-parent-and-each-child thing.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
We don't in general spank, but my daughter did run into the street and got a spanking for it. I think the shock of that response from her daddy was pretty big. Since she had never had that happen before, she knew this street thing was a big deal. She does now stop at the edge of sidewalks and wait. Though that could be being older and that after the street incident, we were more vigilant regarding her level of freedom near streets.
My sister in law regularly spanks and pinches. They have better control over their son then me, but my daughter has more self control. In other words, step out of the room, mine is going to be good, hers is going to be crazy.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
When my son ran into the street, I grabbed him back and carried him inside like a sack of potatoes, which seemed to be quite enough for him to get the message.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I have found with teaching, no style is going to work for every student and similarly no style is going to work for every teacher. Trying to copy someone else's style rarely works. You have to find a teaching style that works with your personality, your material and your natural abilities. I suspect that the same is true for parenting as well.
Its also been my observation that many people (particularly young parents and non-parents) overestimate the influence of parenting. There is only so much a parent can do. I have seen many kids screw up despite excellent parenting and some succeed despite truly horrible parents.
Parents need to forgive themselves for the mistakes they make and recognize that children are amazingly resilient. Likewise, as adults we all need to forgive our parents for the mistakes they made and accept responsibility for our own lives and choices.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I think one of the really difficult things about parenting more than one child is the challenge of balancing the need to tailor your methods for the individual child's personality with "fairness". The methods that worked on the first child don't necessarily work with the second. Kids can respond very differently to punishment and praise and have very different needs. But that gets very complicated because syblings are often acutely aware of differences in they way they are treated. They have a really hard time understanding why you praise their brother for doing something they do all the time or why their sister doesn't get punished as severely as they do.
Its got to be tough.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
" But that gets very complicated because syblings are often acutely aware of differences in they way they are treated. They have a really hard time understanding why you praise their brother for doing something they do all the time or why their sister doesn't get punished as severely as they do."
Solitary confinement helps SO much with this.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: " But that gets very complicated because syblings are often acutely aware of differences in they way they are treated. They have a really hard time understanding why you praise their brother for doing something they do all the time or why their sister doesn't get punished as severely as they do."
Solitary confinement helps SO much with this.
The funny thing is, I don't think we adults do that much better than children. I've been in plenty of conversations with adults complaining about how their parents treat them differently than their syblings. I've done it myself and even when I can rationally understand why my parents do the things they do and logically support their choices, I still sometimes feel slighted when they spend more time or money on one of my syblings than they do with me.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Oh, I'm completely aware that I've been posting my thoughts on parenting and not on the question Hobbes posed. I'm a non-parent, I hope my comments are not disregarded for that reason alone.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Solitary confinement helps SO much with this.
I'm not sure to what extent this was intended as a joke. I'm fairly confident that it does really help to reward and punish each child privately rather than in front of the others -- but that is only possible to a fairly limited extent.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Here is some unsolicited but freely given advice from someone who is not a parent:
Please stop teaching your children to run out into traffic. I cannot tell you how often I see parents (or at least adults with children in tow) dash out in front of cars in the middle of the block. Usually the drivers slow down or stop but setting the example for their kids can't be a good thing.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Solitary confinement helps SO much with this.
I'm not sure to what extent this was intended as a joke. I'm fairly confident that it does really help to reward and punish each child privately rather than in front of the others -- but that is only possible to a fairly limited extent.
It was all joke, although I suppose you've identified something that might work for some people at some times.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
When I was growing up, my mother was the spanker. I can't remember one time my father spanked me, but his method of parenting was just as effective.
I knew if I did something wrong, I would get a spank on the bottom. I hated it. I learned very quickly what to do and what not to do.
I yelled at my mother for the last time when I was 14 years old. She chased me up the stairs into my room. I locked the door behind me before she could get in. She busted my door open, tackled me, and gave me the butt whoppin' of my life.
The worst part of the whole ordeal? Hearing the garage open when my father got home. I heard my mom crying, then I heard the word "WHAT?" from downstairs. A minute later there was a knock at my broken door, and there was my dad with a chair from the kitchen. He lectured me calmly for two hours about respect, and ended it by saying "Now if you ever speak to my wife like that again, I'll quite literally break your jaw."
That was the last time I ever yelled at my mother.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw: We don't spank, but I'm quite sure that if we did "immediate compliance" would not be the reaction we'd get.
My boys have often said things along the lines of "I wish you would just spank us and get it over with instead of taking away our game time". I tell them that's all the more reason to use the more "painful" punishment. They way they beat up on other, I am sure spanking would make no impression on them. If we spanked them harder than they hit each other, it would get CPS called on us.
Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
Before I was a parent, I had tons of opinions on raising children.
I certainly never told individuals how to raise *their* kids. But I had general thoughts, based on having been a kid myself, based on what I'd seen other people do wrong, etc.
Now that I have kids myself...
I still believe that most of what I used to think was correct.
So I certainly don't discount non-parents when they have opinions on raising kids, just like I don't just accept parents' opinions. It's the opinion that is either valid or invalid, not the person holding it.
There's a big difference between saying "parents need to present a united front so kids don't play one against the other" and "you shouldn't let your child have ice cream for breakfast!!"
I never appreciate a stranger telling me how to raise my specific kid. That just activates a primal "protect my child" instinct. I don't know how I'd react if a friend took me aside and told me I was being a lousy dad and tried to help. I sure wouldn't like but I'd at least listen. I want to be a good dad, if something is wrong enough for someone to do something so amazingly uncomfortable as calling out my parenting, I'd better listen.
Of course I'm a great dad so that probably won't happen.
As for spanking, I do usually ignore the advice of anyone who thinks I should *never* spank my children. As it happens I've hardly ever spanked my daughter, because she is a very good child and the Dadsie Voice works wonders. But there have been a few times when she needed it, and I did, and it was very effective, and I'm not sorry I did it, even though I always feel bad for causing her pain, whether it's a swat on the butt or a sharply spoken word.
But sometimes kids do dangerous things and need to know it's serious. And sometimes they flout parental authority and need to know they can't.
I find most anti-spankers tend to look at the lousy parents who hit their kids mistakenly think that anyone who spanks their children has something in common with them. You might just as well compare me to a serial killer because I breathe oxygen or drank milk as a child.
Parents who abuse their kids, parents who hit their kids as a first resort, I really have *nothing* in common with them. The fact I believe spanking can be an appropriate disciplinary tool no more puts me in a group with them than it does because we both wear shoes when we leave the house.
"It teaches kids to hit to solve their problems." I'm sure it does, improperly handled. My daughter was able to learn the difference though: I'm a parent and she's a child. I drive a car, she doesn't. I decide when we can watch TV, she doesn't. I use the stove, she doesn't. I dole out punishments (whether spanking, or a lecture, or whatever), she doesn't.
So far she's very happy, bright, and well-adjusted.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: Which goes back to the whole each-parent-and-each-child thing.
It really does. When I became a parent, I was solidly pro-spanking, in the sense that I thought there were probably times when a spanking was the only method that was appropriate, but had never had to put it into effect. I did end up spanking my kids once or twice, but the only thing I ever used it for was blatant lying, and only after two clear warnings, because I saw lying as something that had to be stopped before it became a habit.
The weird thing is now I can't imagine spanking them for any reason; it seems like it would be incomparably cruel. But I think it's just because they are who they are. They aren't the kind of kids to throw tantrums or break things or be defiant. They don't lie to me. My daughter gets a little squirrel-y when forced to admit that she's done something wrong, but generally a clear look in the eye makes her spill her guts.
So, I don't know. My opinions on spanking are shifting. I still think they can be the best way to get your point across on things where nothing else works, and I don't necessarily believe that one spanking is going to warp a child. But you really do have to know your child, and I know my children well enough to say that spankings aren't appropriate for them.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I'm not one of those rabidly anti-spanking types who will say that spanking them even once 'warps' them. it's just that when analyzed with careful study it more or less turns out that the less you actually use spanking, the better off you are, and being able to craft together a parenting plan that works with no spanking whatsoever is the ideal.
This is hard, though, because spanking is so easily effective at what it is supposed to do, at least immediately. Spanking works, but its a crutch used where better options are apparently 'always' (or at least in the vast majority of cases) are opted against. It shouldn't be confused as a superior or necessary tool.
Well, off to the races, right? I don't have a very deep background in developmental psychology but I still did a lot of research into this. What I've seen of the research allows me to make a hopefully convincing case for it.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote:Originally posted by Seatarsprayan:
I find most anti-spankers tend to look at the lousy parents who hit their kids mistakenly think that anyone who spanks their children has something in common with them. You might just as well compare me to a serial killer because I breathe oxygen or drank milk as a child.
Parents who abuse their kids, parents who hit their kids as a first resort, I really have *nothing* in common with them. The fact I believe spanking can be an appropriate disciplinary tool no more puts me in a group with them than it does because we both wear shoes when we leave the house.
So far she's very happy, bright, and well-adjusted.
I don't think this is true. I do know some parents like that, but most of the parents I know who spank are ones I would characterise as "otherwise good parents". But I think spanking is always wrong and never needed, and I do NOT have easy kids. Yet, without ever striking them, I have molded them into kids who are polite and decent to others. (As in, not their siblings).
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
Being a parent really doesn't change your opinion of children all that much, at least in my case. With my children I am biased by my love for them. I never liked having children around and I still don't...unless they are mine. It's like asking someone their opinion of someone they are in love with...do you expect an accurate description? With my kids, I love the "terrible two's". They are so curious and their objectivity and brutal honesty slaps you in the face.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
A few words about spanking:
Samp put it well. Corporal punishment is basically a lazy, low effort way out-- you convey much disapproval combined with a real, tangible punishment, and, unlike other forms of punishment, it does not require constant follow up and enforcement over time: it's one and done (as an aside, is this less traumatic than a long and ongoing explanation of why a kid is bad/wrong? just an undeveloped thought that struck me here).
However...
As I am constantly telling my kids when I play the "I'm the parent and you will listen to me" card, when there's a limited amount of parent and an excessive amount of kid, sometimes you don't have time to mess around. My overall response to this thread was basically what Hank said: until you are a parent, you don't understand how time, energy, and emotion-expensive kids are. Until you have several children, you don't understand how exponential that drain is. Until you've done it as a single parent, you probably have no concept of "total exhaustion", which for me has been forever redefined as "the state resulting from a couple months of going to bed every night realizing how completely insufficient you are to even a week of the 24-7 task before you, yet committing to continue it for the foreseeable future." Air Force survival and resistance training was a cakewalk by comparison.
So, as Samp said, spanking is pretty much a crutch. I would add, however, that sometimes a crutch is helpful.
This speaking as someone who tries to minimize spanking, but is absolutely willing to use that particular tool.
ETA: I think the biggest issues with spanking occur when it's your "go-to" method. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I don't know how you do it Jim-Me. I've got just the two and I go stir-crazy when Bob is gone for a week. And I've got extended family back-up.
This morning, in an effort to avoid beating the 3-year old, or possibly dropping him out the window, I threw a diaper at his head. It felt so good I threw another. And another. It ended with him laughing his head off burried under a mountain of (clean!) diapers and me feeling much more charitable toward him. And then he loaded them all back in the laundry basket and sat down in the middle of the floor so I could do it again.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I don't even want to try to use that tool when I have kids... There's a history of abuse in my family and it seems to easy to get out of control. If a child doesn't respond to a tap on the butt, then, without any other tools in the toolbox, what if I start breaking out the belt? Which I don't have at all. I suspect being hit by my mother with a belt mostly made me terrorfied of her, which is probably why I am totally, absolutely anti-spanking. It's strange to my how my mother says things like if you don't hit a kid they won't be good, but she got wailed on with extension cords and hangers. And she hated it. As soon as there was a child protection line she threatened to call it on her father. I really do not understand that one bit. Especially since I had cancer at the time and stuff... I hope when I have kids I can find some other way to show my parental authority because I wouldn't even trust myself to give a swat. There's just no decent formula when it comes to these things. I'll have to do things the difficult way.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I hope when I have kids I can find some other way to show my parental authority...
I hope that by the time you have kids you have resolved some of these internal dilemmas.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I do whole-heartedly agree with Samp's view of spanking and Jim's follow-up. Having said that, I have spanked my son twice, both times because I was angry and fed up, and neither time with anything approaching effectiveness. That may be because I felt so awful about it afterward that I started hugging him and apologizing for my behavior...
Somehow, he's a really good kid. I can't help feeling that I didn't have much to do with that. Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:I don't know how you do it Jim-Me.
Well, I did talk that crazy woman into helping me out on a permanent basis this summer, so I don't have to do it alone any more.
quote: This morning, in an effort to avoid beating the 3-year old, or possibly dropping him out the window, I threw a diaper at his head. It felt so good I threw another. And another. It ended with him laughing his head off burried under a mountain of (clean!) diapers and me feeling much more charitable toward him.
what a great story! finding productive ways to channel frustration is huge.
quote: That may be because I felt so awful about it afterward that I started hugging him and apologizing for my behavior... Somehow, he's a really good kid.
I think your willingness to be fallible in front of and accountable to your child probably has a lot to do with that. Setting the example of being accountable for your own actions teaches them far more than any punishment, IMO.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:I hope when I have kids I can find some other way to show my parental authority...
I hope that by the time you have kids you have resolved some of these internal dilemmas.
Hopefully. But I still will parent differently than how I was parented.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Most of my friends don't have kids, but I still value their advice. The problem is, most of them don't have any advice other than stock answers that are sort of just "out there" roaming around the universe under that vague heading of "child rearing". Advice from friends with kids is usually more helpful because alot of times they give advice by recommending courses of action that have really worked for them. While all children are different, if a friend has actually tried something, I'm more willing to believe that it's doable.
Now, if you're saying that people are using their status as a parent to make them seem more wise about issues OUTSIDE of child rearing, then I can't understand that. Having a child has made me alot of things, but it hasn't made me any smarter. I know nothing more of politics, physics, or the best wines just because I'm a parent. In fact, I think I often know less about a variety of things because my focus has shifted and devote my energies towards parenting.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I don't have kids yet. I would generally not offer any unsolicited advice to any parent (even the ones I know very well) because unless there's a risk to the child or a specialist issue I might have knowledge on (e.g., impairment and supports), it's not my business. However, if I thought there was a risk, I absolutely would hope I'd step in. If I was asked for advice, I would politely offer my opinion.
However, when I have kids I will probably be split not so much on the parent/non-parent line as I will based on the actual person. There are parents whose style I really disagree with. I have single, childless friends who I would definitely ask for an opinion. Random advice from strangers, though, would probably elicit a hostile response.
A lot depends on how the advice is couched, too. "Here's a technique I tried/read about, have you tried it?" will always get a better response than "You really shouldn't let them be doing X, you know."
***
On the subject of spanking, I am not unilaterally opposed. I do agree with the rules my parents set themselves for spankings:
1. Only as a last resort when other disciplinary measures have failed OR when there is a clear and immediate danger*. 2. Open hand only. No objects, ever. No fist, ever. 3. Only on the bum. 4. Many clear warnings. 5. Never, ever in anger. If you're angry, wait. Make it clear why you are waiting. It should be a clear "action-consequence" thing, not revenge or lashing out. 6. Lots of love after.
Spanking should never be the first option, or the only tool in the box. It should be rare, or never. Some kids respond much better to non-spanking punishments, but for some, the slight shock might be necessary.
* I'm not even sure I count this as a spanking. Once or twice my parents needed to give one of us a quick swat on the bottom to get our attention - like the time my three-year-old sister tried to run out onto a busy rural highway. It didn't really hurt, but it got her attention so that she stopped squirming and shrieking and could listen to my father as he explained how dangerous that was. Sort of like smacking a hysterical person, but less painful and only when the danger is worse than the swat.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
I didn't comment on the spanking issue. Growing up I thought I would *never* spank my children because it was a totally noneffective punishment with me growing up. I'd still try to not get spanked if one was already coming (my dad actually broke my bed trying to catch me to spank me once), but a spanking was over so quickly that the threat never prevented me from doing anything at all.
I changed my mind quickly when my son was about 18 months old and learned he could reach the nobs on the stove. He thought they were toys and I have a gas stove. That was a dangerous enough situation that I couldn't risk continual redirection to keep him away from them. (What if he turned one on when I was in the bathroom or something, and I didn't notice right away!). So, spanking his hand was the method of choice. It only took two or three times and he got the idea that the stove was NOT an area in which to play.
I figured it would end there, but unfortunately it has not. I've learned that my son, at least, doesn't actually respond to endless repetition in a behavior modification method. It doesn't matter what it is, punishments and rewards both, after a while he gets inured to it and it stops working. I use spankings rarely enough that they're still often good in a situation where it is extremely hard to get him to engage his brain. (I don't know how else to explain this. He'll be so set on something that it's like nothing you say to him actually connects, even if you are looking strait into his eyes from 6 inches away.)
That being said, the *threat* of a spanking is still far far far more common in my parenting technique than an actual spanking is. It's one of my last resorts after I've tried a variety of other methods.
And to get back to the subject of this topic. I prefer positive behavior reinforcement. I use it regularly in a variety of ways. I "catch him being good" whenever I can. He has a sticker chart on the fridge. He gets allowance for doing his chores without complaining. We have a staggered reward system for good behavior in school. If you'd asked me before I had kids, I would have told you that this sort of system was probably all you would ever need. It's only in the face of my real life child that I've learned that I have to use alternative methods of behavior modification, even some I don't like.
Even so, I've never made him do the WORST thing my parents used to do to us. They used to make us kneel in the corner on our tile floor. It had intricate patterns cut into it, so that very VERY quickly they became extremely painful, and the patterns would be embedded in the skin of your knees. Compared to THAT, spanking is nothing!
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
There's a reason why Solomon said, "Cut the baby in two."
There's a reason why "Honor thy Father and Mother" is a commandment, not a suggestion, a proverb, a parable, or an aphorism. And yes, I'm certain that the author of that commandment knew exactly how inadequate and undeserving many --if not most -- parents are.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
In Ephesians, Paul exhorts parents not to "exasperate" their children. That's the flip side.
Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
I find myself having to remind my husband of that verse. He likes to deliberately annoy our child. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Good thing Jews don't believe in the NT. My ex would not like that verse at all. Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Good thing Jews don't believe in the NT. MY ex would not like that verse at all.
If this has any relation to the fact that he is your EX (rather than current) husband, maybe you should instead be saying "too bad Jews don't believe in the NT (or at least that particular verse).
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Actually, it doesn't have anything to do with it. If it did, I would be unlikely to bring it up publicly -- I don't generally discuss the details of my divorce in public, let alone somewhere my kids might someday see it.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Actually, it doesn't have anything to do with it. If it did, I would be unlikely to bring it up publicly -- I don't generally discuss the details of my divorce in public, let alone somewhere my kids might someday see it.
Wise choice!
In case people missed it, I intended it as a joke, much as I'm sure you did.
And even though it is hopefully irrelevant in your case, it is worth pointing out that disagreements about parenting are one of the most common causes of divorce. I find that somewhat sad since divorce seems to have a larger negative impact on children than most differences in parenting style.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lissande: I find myself having to remind my husband of that verse. He likes to deliberately annoy our child.
Ha! Me, too.
--Mel
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by theCrowsWife:
quote:Originally posted by Lissande: I find myself having to remind my husband of that verse. He likes to deliberately annoy our child.
Ha! Me, too.
--Mel
This can be so fun, particularly with teenagers who are so easy to annoy.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: it is worth pointing out that disagreements about parenting are one of the most common causes of divorce.
That disagrees both with the studies I have seen and the anecdotal evidence I am aware of. As a complicating factor, definitely. As a primary cause? I find that very hard to believe.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I hope the man I runs off with wants to be kind and gentle to our kids. I will NOT marry some guy from the Old Skool.
I don't care how hot he is and how good his sleeve tattoos are.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: it is worth pointing out that disagreements about parenting are one of the most common causes of divorce.
That disagrees both with the studies I have seen and the anecdotal evidence I am aware of. As a complicating factor, definitely. As a primary cause? I find that very hard to believe.
Children put a strain on a marriage (as opposed to bringing a couple closer together, a common misconception), but I don't think that it is specifically disagreeing over parenting choices that does it. I was always under the impression that it had more to do with focusing on the children to the exclusion of one another.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:I was always under the impression that it had more to do with focusing on the children to the exclusion of one another.
That I would entirely agree with. Focusing on ANYTHING to the exclusion of each other (jobs, friends, kids) can spell death for a marriage.
Also, I think kids both bring a couple together (shared experiences, bonding, etc.) and push them apart -- and neither one happens magically by itself. Both depend on how the couple handles the issues that come up.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: it is worth pointing out that disagreements about parenting are one of the most common causes of divorce.
That disagrees both with the studies I have seen and the anecdotal evidence I am aware of. As a complicating factor, definitely. As a primary cause? I find that very hard to believe.
Now that I reflect on it, I think what I've seen reported is that disagreements about parenting are one of the most common sources of conflict in marriage, which is in fact not the same as being a common cause of divorce, and a valid distinction.
I doubt many people divorce because they disgree about parenting styles. But if parents are frequently fighting over how to raise the kids, that could easily lead to bigger problems which in turn lead to divorce. People won't think "we got divorced because we disagreed about spanking the kids", even when this may have been the root of their marital difficulties.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Now that I reflect on it, I think what I've seen reported is that disagreements about parenting are one of the most common sources of conflict in marriage, which is in fact not the same as being a common cause of divorce, and a valid distinction.
That makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: But if parents are frequently fighting over how to raise the kids, that could easily lead to bigger problems which in turn lead to divorce. People won't think "we got divorced because we disagreed about spanking the kids", even when this may have been the root of their marital difficulties.
I think I still disagree. If a couple cannot learn to compromise on parenting and/or tolerate each other's styles, then I don't think the arguments are really about parenting -- not for long, anyway. Any more than arguments about who forgot the dry cleaning are really about dry cleaning. They're far more likely to be about spousal roles and expectations, money (this is the BIG one in the vast majority of divorces), and things that really have very little to do with the kids directly.
Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
quote: Also, I think kids both bring a couple together (shared experiences, bonding, etc.) and push them apart -- and neither one happens magically by itself. Both depend on how the couple handles the issues that come up.
This.
Posted by tt&t (Member # 5600) on :
How valuable are non-parent's thoughts on children?
Commenting both as a new parent, and someone who had "thoughts on children" prior to becoming a parent, I have to say that I find the thoughts of both parents and non-parents interesting and valuable. Equally, I find some thoughts of some parents and some non-parents completely unhelpful. Prior to having my son, and probably even since having him, it's likely that I made some suggestions to other parents that fall into both those categories!
Whilst being a parent certainly provides experience and insight of a type that most non-parents would not have, the mere fact of being a parent does not necessarily mean that your advice is more valuable than the advice of someone who has not had children. In fact, sometimes the advice of parents can be worse simply because they may be sure that they know the right answer.
While I was pregnant I received umpteen comments from women who had had children to the effect that "We did XYZ back in my day, and our kids turned out fine!" This was usually in relation to things that I did not do whilst pregnant, such as eat soft cheeses etc. Yes, they may have done XYZ not knowing that it was a risk, and their kids are fine - but having been told that XYZ is a risk, I'm not about to continue and do XYZ even though it is still possible for my baby to turn out fine. The response from non-parents was more likely to be, "Really? I had no idea! That's interesting."
Having said that, I must add that most parents that I have had a lot to do with (including my own parents and other friends and relatives) are quick to say that although they did things a certain way when they raised children, they aren't trying to tell me what to do as they appreciate current recommendations are different. For example tummy/side/back sleeping - each has been recommended at different times. They are merely remarking on how things have changed. (Unlike the waitress who was grumpy about me sending my meal back because it was not "well-done" as I had requested! Apparently, she ate whatever she liked when she was pregnant and her children thrived on it!)
Parents are more likely to be able to pass on advice that they have tried and found useful, while non-parents usually would not have had the same experience and may not realise why a certain idea wouldn't work in practice. However, I wouldn't discount the advice or ideas of a person simply because they didn't have children of their own. A parent who has views that completely differ from my own could give advice that is much less useful for me than a non-parent who has similar views to mine. In general though, I would say that parents are more likely to be able to provide practical advice than non-parents. I've received good useful advice from my own parents and from my sister whose baby is 2 weeks older than mine, as well as other people.
And like most others, I'm not about to leap at the advice of someone (parent or not) who tells me that I Must do XYZ Or Else.
As an unrelated sidenote, it is impossible to explain labour to someone who has never been through it. Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Whoa! I haven't seen you around in ages! Or have you been posting under a different name? Posted by tt&t (Member # 5600) on :
If you mean me - I haven't been around. Hi Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
. I do get frustrated when parents (particularly new parents) repeatedly inform me or others that until one has children of their own, one knows nothing about anything. Aside from the poor presentation skills these individuals clearly have (or don't have) access to, it might be a valid point.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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unless asked for it -- and even then I hesitate. Most of the time, parents just need some reassurance and comfort and support. ![[Group Hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
for parents![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
I expect the learning and growing will continue for both of us -- throughout all the years of our life. Kind of exciting, yes? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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