After about 6 years of hearing people talk about BSG and telling me I'd really like BSG, and generally geeking out over BSG, I finally watched the pilot and the first 3 episodes.
I'm pretty obsessive compulsive, as some of you are doubtless aware, so the problem with show recommendations (or pretty much anything anybody else likes that I don't already know about) is that I don't like to pick up new things because doing so requires a fair amount of energy on my part. To me, listening to an album is not the investment of one hour of my time, but the investment of five hours, or fifteen hours, as I will have to read everything about it, research it, listen to it over and over, analyze it, pick through it for details, etc. It's part of the reason I was compelled to study music and literature in school- I wanted to be more effective at the thing I was already doing in a haphazard fashion. I don't like ambient noise, which is why I can't really listen to music casually like some people do- I have to have my attention focused on it, or I get really frustrated and annoyed.
Anyway, yes, thank you, I am now aware that I will have to devote a further 300 hours or so to watching the entire series several times through. Really, I sometime wish I was payed to be an obsessive person. In point of fact, I *am* payed to be an obsessive person, but only when it comes to languages and sometimes music, not when it comes to TV. More's the pity!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Paid," FYI. Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I DO listen to music and watch TV as "ambient" with some frequency, but Battlestar Galactica is something I have to focus on pretty much entirely.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Obsessive I may be, but a good speller I am not.
ETA: "payed" is cited as a variant simple past and past participle for pay by the OAD, but only for the nautical definition of the word, meaning to seal wood with pitch.
Personally, I'm in favor of promoting a normalized participle ending for pay, ie: "payed" when it functions as a phrasal verb- something along the lines of the burnt/burned dichotomy.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
So...what'd you think of it?
I'm in the midst of deciding whether to buy it on blu-ray or DVD. Has anyone seen it on blu-ray?
There's a sale on Amazon right now, and buying them separately, you can get all of BSG for like $110. Considering how much they usually charge, that's a friggin' steal. They're selling the blu-ray complete series for $185, and there's supposed to be a better version coming out for $200 in April. I can't decide what to do. I've read a couple reviews that say that, despite the intentionally gritty nature of the filming, that it's really quite spectacular in blu-ray.
I've yet to watch it straight through from start to finish. I've always wondered how well it flowed when the seasons weren't broke up with a year or months between them.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I wish there were another 300 hours of EJ Almos playing Bill Adama. I could watch that man make decisions all day.
I really like the music in BSG, too--sparse. Some of the later episodes feature musical plot points (and those were my fav. episodes). Gaeda has a great voice.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The soundtracks are amazing. I listen to them on a regular basis. Bear McCreary made that show so much more than it would have otherwise been.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I watch virtually nothing that hasn't already either finished, or does not have a substantial backlog of episodes stored up. I get frustrated with episodic television if it has to be spaced out an episode a week (with the exception of comedy, like The Office). I find that I need the immediacy of one episode after another in order to contain the plot threads in my memory. I recall that at one time I did watch Deep Space Nine during its first run syndication, but I was a kid, and I was so fixated on it that I would spend the whole week thinking about possibilities for the next episode, and the details would stay fresh.
No network executive can *possibly* understand the frustration and angst that a 14 year old feels when he tunes in after a week of breathless anticipation only to find that he's about to watch a dreaded "bottle episode," or worse, a Ferengi episode. I think the move in sci-fi programming to arc heavy stories has really relieved a lot of the world's pubescent boys of a great deal of stress.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: The soundtracks are amazing. I listen to them on a regular basis. Bear McCreary made that show so much more than it would have otherwise been.
A bit too sting and motif heavy for my taste. It doesn't sink to the depravity of the scoring for Lost or Flashforward, but it's no Firefly.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: I wish there were another 300 hours of EJ Almos playing Bill Adama. I could watch that man make decisions all day.
And awwlll he wunts tu do is to giit these keeeeeds coalledge kredit! To reeeeach dem!
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
His blog does go into quite a bit of detail as to which motif is which, what musical choices were made, and how they evolve during the series http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/
I found it fairly interesting but obviously YMMV
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
One of my favorite DS9 episodes was "The Magnificent Ferengi." It might not have been the deepest, or had the best fight scenes, but it was hilarious, and showed character growth of a sort, in its own way.
quote:A bit too sting and motif heavy for my taste. It doesn't sink to the depravity of the scoring for Lost or Flashforward, but it's no Firefly.
I'm a fan of the leitmotif style of soundtrack scoring, but I admit it doesn't really work for every show. I think the theme for Roslin and Adama is beautiful. I think the aggressive, driving sound behind most of the action scenes makes them twice as excellent. But then, I'm not the expert. Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
It strikes me, as I said, as a bit too workaday networky drama-synthy mechanical. That's exactly what you'd expect from a show about a war with robots, but that's why I would hope the composer and creative directors would go a slightly different road. Soaring and majestic Copeland inspired Star Trek music is not required, and is outdated anyway. I would have liked something a bit more, say, Morton Feldman or Tan Dun. Something that could exist both as transcendent repetitive ambiance and quirky atmospheric cues. The BSG soundtrack is a bludgeon- effective but imprecise. The disappointment for me is the lack of much articulation in terms of volume or richness of sound. You get full on FF and thick percussion, or you get metallic and synthetic glass harmonica sounds. Where is the reediness? Where is the breathy flute? Where, indeed, are the melodies?
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Raymond and I started watching BSG a month or so ago, and have made it through the middle of season 4. Still waiting for the last set of DVDs from the library.
I was pretty reluctant to watch it when I heard it was being redone. The original was pretty bad, but the new one really is fascinating. A lot of shows have explored the subject of "personhood" in recent years. I guess Data from Star Trek TNG kind of got the ball rolling, but lately Sarah Connor Chronicles and Dollhouse come to mind.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I think the aggressive, driving sound behind most of the action scenes makes them twice as excellent. But then, I'm not the expert.
The whole question for me would be how one could use that expectation of the audience to manipulate the emotional cues to added effect. Firefly was brilliant at that, and the music was no exception. The rule should not be: "This scene is tense, the music should be tense." The music should never be pulled along behind the action on screen like a deflated balloon on a string. What you end up with is strong performances and pacing that is actually ruined and pulled down by the music because it's far too obvious. The problem with a lot of scored series is that they treat the music like a set piece, when really well done drama series treat the music like a character. The Wire, the Sopranos, Mad Men, Firefly, Six Feet Under- they all allow the music to function in a subtler sense. As I pointed out previously, just about the worst possible example of a tv soundtrack going wrong is Lost. Not that the music in Lost is even *bad*. There are worse soundtracks. But the clunkiness and brashness of the music in Lost sometimes approaches the feeling of a boom mic lowering into the frame, or an actor looking into the camera and winking. I suspect much of that has to do with a J.J. Abrams or whomever else deals with post production just having very little appreciation for subtlety or tonal nuance. But then, Lost is not an incredibly subtle TV show. BSG tries to be much more so, and the music does a disservice to it at moments in the first few eps.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
In fairness, you might not be getting some of the sounds you want because he very specifically chose eastern instruments, which in his case meant a lot of taiko drums, and Indian stringed and woodwind instruments, most of which I probably can't even pronounce. In that sense, I'd say it's quite unlike any other show I can think of. Part of the problem in the earlier seasons was a lack of money for more instrumentation, it left him with a smaller choice of instruments to work though, short of just doing it all on a computer, which he didn't.
But as the show goes on, and his music had and more and more of an impact, his budget and his instrumentation expanded, and things fleshed out.
I'm not sure I agree with your assessment that it's a bludgeon. Some of the specific themes for characters are haunting, and beautiful. The Roslin/Adam love theme in general I would describe as both intimate and soaring. Maybe you just have to get into it more. The action scenes are primarily poundy taiko drums with some duduk mixed in (the latter of which he uses heavily regardless of what's on the screen). But the individual motifs and quieter scenes I think have music to match that is quite subtle and moving. Gaeta's Lament comes to mind, in this instance.
Edit to add: I think the music is very much a character, but one that doesn't get the development you might like until into and after the first Season. By the end of the second season, I don't want to give anything away, but you'll find that the music becomes it's own plot element in many ways. One moment in the second half of the fourth season uses music in a way that to this day is probably in my top three favorite television moments ever.
Give it some time, it's not all pounding noise to drive a scene.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Well, Taiko drumming invaded academic and especially Hollywood music starting about 15 years ago, and I think personally it's a fad that won't last. You see the best examples of it in things like Tan Dun's soundtracks, but it's massively played out at this point.
It's not really about the sounds I want. You can produce a rich palette with any set of instruments if you care to- I just gave examples of things that are often done. But this music is not very sonically innovative at all. I'd be much more interested in hearing some looser, more personal touches in the music, either electronically or acoustically based. The music feels very workmanlike here, and not at all at peace with itself, or its place in the action. I'll keep paying attention and see if my feeling on it changes.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Fair enough, and to each his own.
Let me know what you think when you get further on in the series. I'll be interested to hear if your opinion changes or not.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
First two seasons are aweome. Beginning and ending episode of season 3 are 10000/10000.
But it fizzzles out, and almost return to form in season 4.5, but wile I enjoyed the ending, it was fairly disspointing.
Music's cool. I dont own the soundtrack, thoguh.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I appreciate the soundtracks of Tan Dun but then again I like the soundtracks of B5 which are potentially as 'synthy' as they come.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Well, Taiko drumming invaded academic and especially Hollywood music starting about 15 years ago
My first exposure to it in a (sort of) Western context was a New Age Jazz group called Hiroshima. I saw them in concert about 1990 or so and they featured Taiko Drumming on their more energetic pieces. I thought it was pretty cool.
Orincoro, speaking of Firefly, did you see Serenity's cameo in the BSG pilot?
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
Ive been watching Jeremiah on netflix, starring Luke Perry and Malcolm Jamal Warner in a world where all the adults died fifteen years ago. As entertaining as the show is I couldnt help but notice a brief appearence of Caprica Six, Mr. Gaeta and a supporting character played by Officer Dualla. There was even an episode with Ducky from NCIS, it was really funny to have them randomly pop up like that.
Plus, Jason Priestly guest stars as violent fascist with a god complex.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jim-Me:
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Well, Taiko drumming invaded academic and especially Hollywood music starting about 15 years ago
My first exposure to it in a (sort of) Western context was a New Age Jazz group called Hiroshima. I saw them in concert about 1990 or so and they featured Taiko Drumming on their more energetic pieces. I thought it was pretty cool.
Orincoro, speaking of Firefly, did you see Serenity's cameo in the BSG pilot?
I didn't know Serenity was in the pilot. I knew that the Enterprise was. Where is it?
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
quote: I didn't know Serenity was in the pilot. I knew that the Enterprise was. Where is it?
I missed this one...about 16 minutes in BSG Serenity
I know I saw Serenity about 43 minutes in, you can see it out in space, I am looking for a link
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Oh I do remember that, but that's "Exodus," not the pilot. Was it in the pilot as well?
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
I really remember seeing it in the pilot movie about 43 minutes in, I think... They are showing a scene of ships preparing to jump and Serenity is just off center. I can't find a link to this spot but I know I saw it... I'll post again when I find it
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
My wife refused to watch BSG with me when it was airing, but I forced her to sit down and watch at least season 1 this summer. She got hooked, needless to say. Excellent series! It was interesting to me when we watched basically the entire series in the span of a week or two (ahhhh summer vacation....) I was able to track the individual plotlines a bit better and notice the elements of foreshadowing that spanned not just an arc of episodes but of entire seasons. B
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: So...what'd you think of it?
I'm in the midst of deciding whether to buy it on blu-ray or DVD. Has anyone seen it on blu-ray?
the blu-rays are spectacular
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Really? I'd just talked myself out of buying it...but then I did my taxes and found Uncle Sam was extra generous this year, which may lead to a little more splurging on my part than usual.
Interestingly, they are only now getting around to releasing the blu-ray seasons individually, whereas before they were in a big complete series set. But that set was discontinued, and a new set, with a lower price, is being released in April, and will include The Plan. I'm thinking about waiting for it, and hoping it's a more complete set with a nicer packaging, since every review I've read of the full set has roundly criticized the packaging as unfathomably annoying and cumbersome. This and a PS3, but then I have to be responsible with the rest. Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
The picture is a thing of beauty (though the miniseries is on the soft side) and the sound, if you have a home theater system, is terrific. The packaging looks very cool, but the individual season boxes are definitely annoying and cumbersome. But if you have an HDTV, definitely go with the Blu-rays, especially if you can wait until April, when the price will also be lower.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
My family just finished watching the show. I had heard the ending was disappointing. It kinda was, but it was more or less what I expected from the rest of the show. It helped that I knew from the beginning that the show was essentially a Mormon parable, so the fact that the "mystery" elements are all resolved with "because God made it that way" was not surprising.
You might consider that a spoiler, but I honestly think it's better (for Orincono in particular) to know that going in than to have to deal with it being the "twist" at the end.
Fortunately, the show is still amazing for all sorts of other reasons. The mysteries are all pretty lame, but the characters and political issues at work are all wonderful.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
"Mormon parable"?
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
My understanding is that the original Battlestar was deliberately intended as allegory for the original Mormon wagon train journey across the wilderness to a promised land. I'm not familiar enough with Mormonism to know what specifically references what, and how much is unique to Mormonism as opposed to Abrahamic faiths in general, but this wikipedia entry covers various religious symbolism:
The recent Battlestar wasn't made with the same intent, but it still references the same source material, so a lot of the stuff is still there. I think the Cylon religious stuff was actually new.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
While the original was definitely influenced by Mormon ideas and terms, I don't think it was ever much of a Mormon parable.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Point being, however a direct parable/allegory it is or isn't, it's a show that assumes/implies the presence of God who manipulates events throughout the show, and we are expected to take various extreme coincidences at face value for that reason.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Some god anyways, I don't think we're supposed to assume that either the god or his agents/angels are necessarily the Christian god or any god we're familiar with.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
My use of the word "parable" instead of "allegory" may be throwing people off. I didn't mean it was literally the story of Mormonism. It's a generic enough God that most monotheistic faiths can project onto it, and regardless, if you're the sort of person (like me) who DOESN'T like the idea of an omnipotent God manipulating everything to the extent that the actions of the characters don't matter that much in the grand scheme of things, it can be a turnoff.
For some reason I DIDN'T have the same problem with the show "Kings" (which was a direct retelling of the story of David). In that show God was close enough to being an actual character, even if he never actually appeared or said anything, that I was okay with things happening simply because he wanted them to.
It may be that I just compartmentalize science fiction and religious fiction as different things that I don't like intersecting, but I feel like the God/angels/prophets in Galactica were actively annoying in ways that felt like bad writing.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Some god anyways, I don't think we're supposed to assume that either the god or his agents/angels are necessarily the Christian god or any god we're familiar with.
I had been getting the impression that this was more the "god in the machine" concept favored by Asimov or Clarke- that being a presence which is interpreted as a god, or can be treated as a god, due to sufficient technological or experiential variance between parties. Since the Cylons do say that the cycle of human progress and regression is ongoing, it's logical to conclude that a godlike being has been created by a past iteration of human invented cybernetic beings, or something similar. In fact, this idea was quite popular in the days when BG was first aired- possibly even more than it is now.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Thats my theory, yes, that the 'god' depicted in BSG is more akin to a Goa'uld or Ori in Stargate or the Vorlons in Babylon 5. The difference in this situation is that the characters that we follow are not privy to what is going on "behind the curtains."
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I'd have liked that explanation fine, if anything was ever done to actually explain it. Unfortunately the writers seemed to deliberately try to leave the ending open for as much interpretation as possible.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Did Stargate or Babylon 5 have actual angels that could be seen by some but not by others, and who provided information that couldn't have been provided by any other source? (and in one scene actually picked up Gaius by his armpits in a way that is virtually impossible for one to do on one's own?)
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
With the exception of the part about no one else being able to see them, Babylon 5 had Kosh, who was literally an angel. Stargate had the Ancients.
Star Trek DS9 had the Prophets.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
$ $ $ Spoilers, especially for Orincoro $ $ $ $ $ $ $
To be precise, the BSG entities display three characteristics that are extraordinary: 1) Invisibility 2) Prescience (ability see the future) 3) Ability to resurrect life (maybe)
In B5, while the Vorlons do not demonstrate invisibility, they do demonstrate telepathy, which ends up simulating selective invisibility in the case of Londo. They demonstrate prescience via time travel (or may just inherently have foresight, there are seers in the B5 universe) and through a friend, they can do resurrection.
In Stargate, the Ancients also have access to time travel, can ascend (and thus selectively appear), and can resurrect...well.. Daniel, multiple times.
So yes, both these species could potentially pull off something like that demonstrated in BSG. Arguably while the Vorlons are ruthless enough to do it, the Ancients while having the ability, suffer from a bit of plot device stupidity.
But let us lower the bar a little.
Consider the crew of the Enterprise. Picard and company have time travel (which provides prescience), they have invisibility suits, and they can even simulate resurrection by borrowing Voyager's holoemitter and generating a holo-Kara.
So, it isn't all that rough to pull off really. Clarke's rule about advanced technology and magic essentially apply.
Raymond Arnold: I agree, which is why my theory remains a theory.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
More spoilers:
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The individual things that the BSG angels do are not that "difficult" to pull off (assuming we're pretending that invisibility suits and time travel exist...) but what strains credibility is the extent to which they manipulate events to the point that, say, two civilizations warp in right on top of each other right as a supernova is about to go off. Or carefully manipulate two individuals for 4 years so that... they can rescue a child who probably would have been rescued anyway by Roslin or Sharon?
What doesn't make sense is why they'd use their power to execute such convoluted schemes. Developing an actual God character (even if you didn't get to actual see him/her/it... come to think of it does Six or Baltar ever assign a gender to God or do they always go out of their way to refer to him by proper name?) and giving that God character some restrictions so they had an excuse to help in some situations but not others, would have been better IMO.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
$ $ $ Spoilers, continued $ $ Well, from what I understand there was a plan at one point for 'God' to actually show up at the end of season 1 at Kobol in the guise of one of the old BSG actors. I kid you not.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
Spoilers:
I don't really think the ending was unclear/ambiguous. Okay, they didn't outright tell you what Starbuck was, but it was pretty clear she was similar to Head Six/Baltar but without knowledge of that fact. Head Six says at numerous times throughout the show that she is an angel, and there is no reason to doubt that she is anything but. So, they're angels, they reference God on many occasions, it seems pretty straightforward, really.
I also think the ending is perfect and if you watch the show through a second time and know where they're going it almost works better. Because they really do build up to it brilliantly and I don't see how they could have done it any better, at least without fundamentally altering the show from the start.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by BryanP: Spoilers:
... So, they're angels, they reference God on many occasions, it seems pretty straightforward, really.
Well, one of them. It also ends with the exchange
quote:"You know it doesn't like that name." "Silly Me.....silly, silly me."
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Some god anyways, I don't think we're supposed to assume that either the god or his agents/angels are necessarily the Christian god or any god we're familiar with.
Considering the very final thing the Six "Angel" says tot he Baltar "angel" I don't think it's a god at all.
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: Did Stargate or Babylon 5 have actual angels that could be seen by some but not by others, and who provided information that couldn't have been provided by any other source? (and in one scene actually picked up Gaius by his armpits in a way that is virtually impossible for one to do on one's own?)
The Volons and Shadows actively intervened when it suited them. The Vorlons in particular claimed to be angels.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think it's more accurate to say that Vorlons invented the concept of angels in their own image.
That way, when viewed outside their encounter suits, they would automatically be viewed favorably by any of the younger races that saw them.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by aeolusdallas:
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Some god anyways, I don't think we're supposed to assume that either the god or his agents/angels are necessarily the Christian god or any god we're familiar with.
Considering the very final thing the Six "Angel" says tot he Baltar "angel" I don't think it's a god at all.
Very true. The possibility is deliberately left open that the "God" in BSG is simply a very advanced alien/other intelligence that has chosen to use its vastly superior insights and seemingly mystical powers to guide humanity and its cylon creations. But of course, who's to say that that doesn't describe the Christian God as well?
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
I don't see how you can even argue that it's a possibility that it's not supposed to be some form of God. That exchange with Head Six/Baltar at the end is bizarre, and it just seems like an unfunny joke about how God doesn't like to be called God. But there is absolutely no indication throughout the show that it is an advanced intelligence, or that it is anything other than supernatural. For it to be otherwise would defeat the whole bloody point of the series.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Simple. By being the sort of person who assumes that when somebody in a science fiction show tells you they're a God, they're usually lying and/or exaggerating. Real Baltar goes out of his way to say that it doesn't matter WHAT exactly God is, but that he exists. And then Head Six/Baltar make the exchange that you can only describe as "bizarre and unfunny." You can interpret it as a bad joke or you can interpret it as a deliberate clue.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:For it to be otherwise would defeat the whole bloody point of the series.
I don't think there really was a point to the series.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Yeah, I gotta agree. While there were small points in certain episodes and a few larger ones scatter among the arcs, BSG does a pretty good job of avoiding and subverting any hints of an overriding point to the whole thing.
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
quote:Originally posted by BryanP: I don't see how you can even argue that it's a possibility that it's not supposed to be some form of God. That exchange with Head Six/Baltar at the end is bizarre, and it just seems like an unfunny joke about how God doesn't like to be called God. But there is absolutely no indication throughout the show that it is an advanced intelligence, or that it is anything other than supernatural. For it to be otherwise would defeat the whole bloody point of the series.
The Lords of Kobol are never explained. It is entirely possible that they and the Cylon god are post singularity transhuman AI's or Humans.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
Generally, the point of a show is to entertain. So, yeah, Battlestar Galactica has no point.
[ February 12, 2010, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Dobbie ]
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by BryanP: I don't see how you can even argue that it's a possibility that it's not supposed to be some form of God. That exchange with Head Six/Baltar at the end is bizarre, and it just seems like an unfunny joke about how God doesn't like to be called God. But there is absolutely no indication throughout the show that it is an advanced intelligence, or that it is anything other than supernatural. For it to be otherwise would defeat the whole bloody point of the series.
To quote Arthur C. Clarke: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".
This is a common theme in sci-fi. Often advanced races are mistaken for gods by far more primitive races. Sometimes humans are the advanced race (eg. that episode of TNG where the vulcan-like race start worshiping "The Picard"). Sometimes humans are in the middle, where there's a more primitive society worshiping aliens but the humans see what's really going on (eg. Stargate). There's no reason why BSG can't be an example where humans are the primitive race caught up in the machinations of a greatly more advanced intelligence. I mean, why not? Because it seems mystical and supernatural? That's the whole point of Clarke's third law stated above! From the perspectives of the humans and cylons (which are the only perspectives that we see except for the brief Baltar-Six exchange in the final scene) the actions of "God" and his agents would appear mystical.
I'm not saying that this has to be the case, but there's certainly nothing to disprove it, and it makes the final conversation less bizarre, as you say.
Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
Obviously you are all entitled to your opinions on the show and I can't change them, nor do I care to try. But I think it's a stretch to ascribe these other sci-fi ideas to a show which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with them. Yes, I am aware of Clarke's law, and yes it is impossible to prove my opinion of what the show is about, short of a quote from Ron Moore, but I think, in a way, that it cheapens the show to say the explanation of some key events is not religious.
One of the primary themes of the show is religion, they deal with it from the very beginning. So, alright, maybe an incredibly advanced civilization is playing with them, using their religious beliefs to steer them in a particular direction. If that were the case, though, the aliens would need to know the future, because there are multiple times throughout the show where Six tells Baltar things he could not possibly know, or guess, about the future. Likewise Starbuck's resurrection and disappearance in the finale: while it could have been orchestrated by an advanced race, it complicates what is otherwise a simple explanation. And most significantly, they find Earth with a population of intelligent beings with whom they are sexually compatible. As one of the characters asks, what are the odds? Yes, again, this could have been done by the advanced race, I won't deny it. But I truly think that explanation cheapens what is otherwise a very poignant story in which fate and God play key roles in the lives of a group of people who are struggling to survive. They ultimately reach Earth in part because of a desire to fulfill and/or simply understand their destinies, and because a loving God wants them to survive and ultimately learn from their mistakes. That to me is far more meaningful than "random alien intelligence we never know decides to save the lowly humans and cylons", but like I said you're more than entitled to your own opinion.
Sorry this isn't better written but sadly I don't have time for an essay on the subject, though I wanted to expand on my previous post.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
My original point was that the ending is such that people who find the religious answer more poignant can believe that, and people who find the purely religious answer not poignant at all (like me) have another option. I realize the only actual evidence we have is the one line at the end, but that's a pretty significant line. It doesn't prove anything one way or another but it's certainly enough to leave both options open.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Quote from Ron Moore regarding the entire series and the finale in particular (source)
quote: MR: There has been some one or some thing orchestrating these events. And you purposely chose to leave that ambiguous.
RDM: It just felt like, you know, by its nature, the eternal, the divine, sort of defies concrete terminology. The more you attempt to state exactly what it is definitively, the less mysterious, the less supernatural, the less mysterious it becomes. And I thought, you can only go so far. You can kind of acknowledge a presence, you can acknowledge the hand of something else, and that was about as far as I thought that the show could comfortable show.
It was embedded in the mythology of the show since the miniseries, so that definitely had to be part of it, and it had to have a satisfying ending on that note, but I didn’t want to come right out and have a bearded guy in the heavens or something or sort of give voice to it. I just wanted to leave it mysterious. And as with so many things, the questions are more interesting than the answers are.
It's almost inherently something we can know. It seems like it's a continuing theme in mythology, that you can't really know the divine. You can experience it, you can encounter it, things can be revealed to you, but you can never really understand the mysteries at the heart of it. And the more you try to put definitions on it, the less satisfying it becomes. Once you get to the place where you imagine God as a bearded guy in a cloud, it becomes less satisfying.
Baltar's speech in CIC is pivotal -- "There's another presence here, we've all felt it, we've all seen its impact, we know it's around us, we know it's around us right now, and we have to have a leap of faith and trust that it's there and believe that it exists, even if you can't understand what it is and what its motivations are, if it has motivations."
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: My original point was that the ending is such that people who find the religious answer more poignant can believe that, and people who find the purely religious answer not poignant at all (like me) have another option. I realize the only actual evidence we have is the one line at the end, but that's a pretty significant line. It doesn't prove anything one way or another but it's certainly enough to leave both options open.
That's basically what I'm saying. I'm not disagreeing with BryanP, I'm just trying to make the point that the nature of "God" in BSG is intentionally vague. Each viewer should embrace the interpretation that works for them. They're both valid, and personally I'm okay with both possibilities.
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
I like RDM's answer in that interview.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Lyrhawn's completely right, the soundtracks are INCREDIBLE. Season 4 was kinda blah, but the first three have been on heavy rotation since I could get my hands on them. "Passacaglia" and (strangely) "Something Dark Is Coming" are my favorites.
That said, if you're watching the series now, stop before you start season 4.5. The ending of 4.0 was exactly how the series should have ended. Season 4.5 was just the worst thing I've seen in a while, in terms of acting, writing, execution, even simple directorial rules like show-don't-tell. The finale was agonizingly bad, particularly after I'd invested such enthusiasm in the first three seasons.
Don't. Stop at 4.5 and keep your good memories of the series.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Lalo, you might be interested to know that the soundtrack to "The Plan/Razor" is being released I think tomorrow, or later this week. I expect it will be the last music release from the series.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I actually preferred the 4.5 ending to 4.0, so long as I knew it advance that it was going to be contrived and not really answer any mysteries.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lalo: Season 4.5 was just the worst thing I've seen in a while, in terms of acting, writing, execution, even simple directorial rules like show-don't-tell.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
The creator of BSG, Glenn Larson, is a member of the LDS church, and you there are a LOT of things in the show that directly reference the LDS church's structure and beliefs.
I found a pretty good list here, with the exception of the one about young wives :
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