The "rebel" flag as it has also been known seems to have a differant meaning to most everyone who see's it, I am curious as to the feelings of hatrackers about this physical piece of American history and ask anyone with a definitive opinion to share what they know and why they hold that belief, but even if you are unbiased please contribute what you do know and any other opinions on the matter.
I am with-holding my stance at the moment to hopefully allow the discussion to develop naturally instead of instilling a X vs. Y argument from the first response.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Being black, it makes me feel a bit uneasy. As the South and its history of slavery is a sore subject with me.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I can understand why people have issues with it. I'm not convinced that that's a sufficient reason to get rid of it entirely, but I'm also not convinced that there is sufficient reason to keep it around.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
For me, unless used in a historical or documentary context, its use in a straight-forward manner indicates to me that I should probably stay far away from the user in question.
Which is a sort of win-win for both of us really.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Whatever it stood for at one time, it now stands for oppression, slavery, ignorance, poverty and racism in the mind of the larger culture.
It is the flag of a traitorous, defeated nation.
I say that as a Southerner who is quite happy in the South. If the region needs some sort of symbol to signify its specialness, I'd prefer it be a picture of Paula Dean's face. Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Standing for oppression, slavery, ignorance, etc, is all fine and good.
But the flag of a traitorous nation?
I'd say being traitorous in this case is only true because they lost.
After all... if the U.S. had lost, we'd all be traitors too. The only reason we aren't is because we won the Revolutionary War.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
My Dad tells a story of when he was in college and a team from WVU came up to Wisconsin to play football, waving the confederate flag and giving "rebel yells". As my father tells it, they were extremely put out and disbelieving when informed that West Virginia was not part of the Confederacy.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
OMegabyte:
Hm...you might be right. Traitorous is the wrong word, because it incorporates active ill-will.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
I never understood the reason some people had that flag on their cars and hats. Maybe there is a good reason they carry the symbol around, but the first thing that comes to mind when I see someone with it is "That person is racist."
I don't know if that is true or not, maybe it means something different than it did a hundred and forty years ago.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
The states that would comprise the confederacy seceded after slavery had been deemed illegal in the newly acquired southwestern states from the Mexican-American war. To secede from America is to take control of American land and American citizens, as the leaders of the secession were (formerly) American this would constitute a betrayal.
I do not believe that anyone here would refute that every revolution was at one point terrorism. But my point is yes, it is the flag of a people who were traitorous to the United States of America.
Edit
I would point out that slavery had been outlawed in newly acquired states only, with no legal effect on laws and agricultre of pre-existing states, the to-be confederates seceded when the majority voted against thier personal interests not when they're way of life had been attacked.
Edit #2 I spelled secede wrong alot.
[ March 11, 2010, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: AchillesHeel ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Secede.
I'm not sure that, legally speaking, there was a problem with secession. Part of the reason the war was fought was to determine that question-- not by legal arguments or reasoning, but by force of arms.
I don't think that everyone who flies the confederate flag is racist. It IS an enormous symbol of regional and cultural pride.
Posted by theresa51282 (Member # 8037) on :
I have sympathy for the south in the sense that I am supportive of the idea that regions should be allowed to secede and govern themselves if the people of that region chose. I don't think governments have absolute claims to land for all eternity. If the populace that lives there wants to break away I am ok with that. Chechnya and Tibet come to mind as two modern examples of this. I obviously have no sympathy for the Souths right to enslave people though. The confederate flag represents that to too many people for me to support it being flown by government entities. It is just to hurtful and nothing is really gained.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Not only not part of it, but specifically left Virginia because they refused to secede.
I have a hard time getting behind the Confederate flag. It sort of feels like someone is telling me I have to accept burning crosses on lawns too. It's a symbol of oppression and slavery. When it's displayed, my automatic reaction is to assume that the displayer is attempting to elicit feelings of the "lost cause" mentality that the South's cause was just, and that they only lost because they didn't have the firepower necessary. That's a bunch of crap, crap that the South has been quite successful in pushing since the day the war ended, but I'm on Frederick Douglass' side on this one. In response to the idea that neither side was wrong, and that reconciliation was the priority of the day, Douglass said, "I shall never forget the difference between those who fought for liberty and those who fought for slavery; between those who fought to save our Republic and those who fought to destroy it."
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
I agree, I wouldn't call the CSA any more traitourous then the USA. Remember, at one point we were British. I guess the winner decides who is a traitor. But losing traitors tend to be punished, and Lincoln didn't exactly have the Confederate administration hanged.
But the flag? I don't think it should be banned like the swastika in Germany is. But I think putting it on state flags and buildings is extremely offensive.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
To proudly fly the Confederate flag today, whatever it might once have meant, is to say, "I am racist and collect guns, and will be aggressively unapologetic about either of those things."
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Lincoln didn't exactly have the Confederate administration hanged.
Lincoln was dead, and Johnson was a southerner. If Radical Republicans had had their way, things would have gone very differently. Why do you think Black Codes were instituted so quickly after the war ended? Because the same guys who were in charge of the south before the war, and during the war, were pardoned by Johnson and sent right back to the state legislatures. That's when Congress stepped in, until 1874 anyway, to try to right some of those wrongs.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:Lincoln didn't exactly have the Confederate administration hanged.
Lincoln was dead, and Johnson was a southerner. If Radical Republicans had had their way, things would have gone very differently. Why do you think Black Codes were instituted so quickly after the war ended? Because the same guys who were in charge of the south before the war, and during the war, were pardoned by Johnson and sent right back to the state legislatures. That's when Congress stepped in, until 1874 anyway, to try to right some of those wrongs.
Point taken.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
The flag stands for different things to different people. Therefore I think my reaction to it should depend on what it is intended to mean by the person displaying it. I don't think it makes any sense to get mad about racism if I know the reason the person is displaying it is southern pride rather than advocacy of racism.
The one thing it does tend to demonstrate, however, is that the person displaying it doesn't particularly care what others (or at least those who view the flag differently) think - since its inevitable that somebody will be offended by it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I find troubling the notion of outsiders getting to define what symbols really mean.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I wouldn't call the CSA any more traitourous then the USA. Remember, at one point we were British.
IIRC, there were functions in place to remediate grievances that US State Representatives had prior to the civil war.
Were there similar remediative functions accessible to the colonial governments?
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I find troubling the notion of outsiders getting to define what symbols really mean.
In this circumstance, what do you mean by "outsiders?" non-Americans? non-confederates? or simply not the person displaying the article in question?
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:I wouldn't call the CSA any more traitourous then the USA. Remember, at one point we were British.
IIRC, there were functions in place to remediate grievances that US State Representatives had prior to the civil war.
Were there similar remediative functions accessible to the colonial governments?
I understand your point. But if the US had lost, it would have been called traiterous.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stephan:
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:I wouldn't call the CSA any more traitourous then the USA. Remember, at one point we were British.
IIRC, there were functions in place to remediate grievances that US State Representatives had prior to the civil war.
Were there similar remediative functions accessible to the colonial governments?
I understand your point. But if the US had lost, it would have been called traiterous.
Actually the U.S. would have been considered domineering, North-biased and malevolent towards the people of the South and thier rights to work and to live peacefully after seceding from a government that had turned a blind eye to the poverty stricken farmers.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I find troubling the notion of outsiders getting to define what symbols really mean.
In this circumstance, what do you mean by "outsiders?" non-Americans? non-confederates? or simply not the person displaying the article in question?
People who don't use that symbol themselves. In this case, probably people who wouldn't display the confederate flag.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Actually the U.S. would have been considered domineering, North-biased and malevolent towards the people of the South and thier rights to work and to live peacefully after seceding from a government that had turned a blind eye to the poverty stricken farmers.
We're talking about if the US had lost in the Revolutionary War, AH.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I don't think it makes any sense to get mad about racism if I know the reason the person is displaying it is southern pride rather than advocacy of racism.
Heck, I don't think you could meaningfully distinguish between "southern pride" and "racism and love of firearms." What's the distinction?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:The one thing it does tend to demonstrate, however, is that the person displaying it doesn't particularly care what others (or at least those who view the flag differently) think - since its inevitable that somebody will be offended by it.
I think this is what it actually means - "I don't care what you think. I won't be dictated to. I am a rebel."
Which, since it was the rebel flag, ties right in with the symbol.
A confederate flag, in my personal experience as opposed to published anecdotes I have read, has meant about the same thing that a tongue piercing, James Dean's red jacket, and a flower dress with Doc Martens have meant over the years.
----
quote:Heck, I don't think you could meaningfully distinguish between "southern pride" and "racism and love of firearms." What's the distinction?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Except that wearing a flower dress with Doc Martens does not also say "I am a racist who loves guns."
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: ... After all... if the U.S. had lost, we'd all be traitors too. The only reason we aren't is because we won the Revolutionary War.
I'm ok with resolving this inconsistency by agreeing that both the US during the Revolutionary War AND the Confederates were traitorous Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Originally posted by theresa51282: I have sympathy for the south in the sense that I am supportive of the idea that regions should be allowed to secede and govern themselves if the people of that region chose. I don't think governments have absolute claims to land for all eternity. If the populace that lives there wants to break away I am ok with that. Chechnya and Tibet come to mind as two modern examples of this. I obviously have no sympathy for the Souths right to enslave people though. The confederate flag represents that to too many people for me to support it being flown by government entities. It is just to hurtful and nothing is really gained.
Given the situation around the time of the Civil War, I think recognizing the CSA as a legitimate country (internally, noting that this would not happen on an international scale) would have led to worse consequences. The Union would not have tolerated a nation such as the CSA to take Union resources, share the country, or expand into areas that the Union wanted.
Even during the Civil War, there were some who advocated treating it as a war of conquest instead of reunification. If the CSA was treated as a true independent nation, this war of conquest was pretty much inevitable.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Seriously: what else is it possible to have "Southern pride" about? Who would describe their sense of hometown pride as "Southern pride" who is not a racist who loves guns?
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
Would you still find the symbol to show independant thought and freedom if a Black-American displayed it? surely in the hands of a descendant of slavery it does not and has never meant freedom.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I find troubling the notion of outsiders getting to define what symbols really mean.
In this circumstance, what do you mean by "outsiders?" non-Americans? non-confederates? or simply not the person displaying the article in question?
People who don't use that symbol themselves. In this case, probably people who wouldn't display the confederate flag.
Sometimes actions define a symbol. The flag has a long history of negative actions attached to it, and while someone can display it and say it means something else, that doesn't erase the history.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: A confederate flag, in my personal experience as opposed to published anecdotes I have read, has meant about the same thing that a tongue piercing, James Dean's red jacket, and a flower dress with Doc Martens have meant over the years.
"I am an adolescent"?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Tom:
Kate: Maybe. Not all teenagers do the above, and not all who do the above or wish to aggressively assert their independence are teenagers.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I don't think you could meaningfully distinguish between "southern pride" and "racism and love of firearms."
I have southern pride, and am not racist, and do not love firearms.
I'm proud of the South's cultural contributions to food, music, and literature. I'm proud that "Southern" goes hand in hand with "hospitality."
I hate that it also means (and has earned, IMO) a connotation toward racism and ignorance.
That said, the first real racism I saw when I was growing up was in Wisconsin, where people had never met anyone who wasn't white. Where diversity was qualified to mean "Catholic or Lutheran." Where a casserole was considered fine dining, and oompa bands still a viable musical platform, and the most-read book in the library was that one Judy Blume book for young adults with that one scene in it...
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I think recognizing the CSA as a legitimate country (internally, noting that this would not happen on an international scale)
I'm not sure I understand. I thought Great Britain recognized the CSA?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
What I meant was the Union would not have acknowledged to the international community that they considered the CSA to be a legitimate country.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I'm proud that "Southern" goes hand in hand with "hospitality."
Not to derail, but honestly, I found the people I met in SC to be the least hospitable - to me anyway - I have ever encountered. And I was nicer back then and really wanted (and needed) people to be nice to me. People who didn't even know me would literally (and I mean literally) turn their backs to me if I approached them. They were nasty to me in church on Christmas Eve.
I think that people, in general, are hospitable to people who are like them.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:I think recognizing the CSA as a legitimate country (internally, noting that this would not happen on an international scale)
I'm not sure I understand. I thought Great Britain recognized the CSA?
They wanted the cotton, not realizing that they had better soil in Africa and other colonies. Pres. Lincoln publically refered to the war as a "police action" to prevent international aid and alliances from reaching the south. Great Britian was the only one to send supplies but could not hazard troops because to do so in response to a police action would be an invasion and a declaration of war on America, making them an enemy of American allies (i.e. France)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You roll your eyes, Katie, but do not answer. What else might inspire someone to fly that particular flag to exhibit "Southern pride" -- pride that is, mind you, somehow distinct from pride in anything else?
"Southern pride" means "I am not sorry for being a racist who likes guns."
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I find troubling the notion of outsiders getting to define what symbols really mean.
In this circumstance, what do you mean by "outsiders?" non-Americans? non-confederates? or simply not the person displaying the article in question?
People who don't use that symbol themselves. In this case, probably people who wouldn't display the confederate flag.
I don't think that people who dress themselves in potent symbols that have a weighty history of meaning something can redefine the meaning of these symbols by saying that they mean something else. You can't dress up as a Nazi and say it's all about German Pride for you.
The Confederate Flag means racism to me and I suspect that many of the people who use it and say "It's really about Southern Pride" are really using it for it's racist meaning.
For it to mean something else, they'd need to put serious effort into reclaiming the symbol. It'd be interesting to see people campaigning for better treatment of minorities under the Confederate Flag, for example.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:"Southern pride" means "I am not sorry for being a racist who likes guns."
It doesn't have to. See above.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I'm not sure I understand. I thought Great Britain recognized the CSA?
Tangent: I was under the impression that they were careful not to, as in:
quote:One of the most important victories won by the United States during the Civil War was not ever fought on a battlefield. Rather, it was a series of diplomatic victories that ensured that the Confederacy would fail to achieve diplomatic recognition by even a single foreign government.
I'm rolling my eyes at the flaming bigot who is posting. Some comments are too stupid and too indicative of a closed mind and determined ill will to waste time on.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:I think recognizing the CSA as a legitimate country (internally, noting that this would not happen on an international scale)
I'm not sure I understand. I thought Great Britain recognized the CSA?
To add to what AH said, they never officially recognized them, but smuggler ports were pretty busy in both Britain and France outfitting ships for raiding attacks on the US merchant fleet. The US Navy would often stage ships out of adjacent ports to make sure suspected southern ships being armed would never make it out of port intact. The United States could hardly declare war on England or France for their actions, so focused on destroying the proceeds rather than punishing opportunism, which was the wiser course. I have some more information around here somewhere about foreign policy during the Civil War, but for the most part, that was Seward's job. Lincoln never touched foreign policy.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I'm proud of the South's cultural contributions to food, music, and literature. I'm proud that "Southern" goes hand in hand with "hospitality."
But would you say that this is "Southern pride?" In my experience, the people who say they have "Southern pride" mean "I am an unapologetic racist and gun-lover." The people who think that Southerners have made substantial contributions to music and/or hospitality generally say things like "I'm proud of Southern music."
The term "Southern pride" has been completely co-opted.
And Katie, you're Texan. So don't even pretend to be a "Southerner." Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I'm proud that "Southern" goes hand in hand with "hospitality."
Not to derail, but honestly, I found the people I met in SC to be the least hospitable - to me anyway - I have ever encountered. And I was nicer back then and really wanted (and needed) people to be nice to me. People who didn't even know me would literally (and I mean literally) turn their backs to me if I approached them. They were nasty to me in church on Christmas Eve.
I think that people, in general, are hospitable to people who are like them.
To me, Southern goes along with hospitality, as long you're talking about non-Catholic Christians who are either white or non-"uppity" minorities.
I've always been treated very nicely in the South, but I've heard too many stories, especially from my Jewish friends, of Southerners being very inhospitable and I've read too many studies of the significantly higher levels of prejudice in the South, to grant Southerners unqualified hospitality as a accurate trait.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I've never heard of Southern Pride referring to the sort of cultural aspects you're saying it refers to Scott. I might not state it so bluntly as Tom, but when I hear Southern Pride, my mind leans considerably more his way than yours.
Plus, "Southern hospitality" only applied to one race until a couple decades ago. Unless you count having to go around back to the kitchen to get a carry out bag a piece of "Southern hospitality."
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: You roll your eyes, Katie, but do not answer. What else might inspire someone to fly that particular flag to exhibit "Southern pride" -- pride that is, mind you, somehow distinct from pride in anything else?
"Southern pride" means "I am not sorry for being a racist who likes guns."
I don't know that you've made your case in a way that deserves much of a answer, though. For instance, it took me about three seconds to convince myself that it could mean "I'm not sorry that I live in a state that was part of the Confederacy", and Scott has also offered alternative reasons for "Southern Pride."
There might be no reason for Southern Pride that elevates it beyond "I<3NY", sure, but we don't say that "I<3NY" only means "I love capitalism and anorexia." It's mainly just benign teamism.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I'm rolling my eyes at the flaming bigot who is posting. Some comments are too stupid and too indicative of a closed mind and determined ill will to waste time on.
I don't think it's fair to call Tom a bigot; his position is held by lots of people. There's a good reason for their perception.
He's wrong; Southern Pride can mean more than just what he's trying to fix it to mean. I've pointed out some examples of why I'm proud to be a Southerner.
I've enjoyed every place I've ever lived, and found kindness and compassion from strangers everywhere. But the South is home. Loving it, and being proud of other Southerners' accomplishments doesn't mean glossing over its problems.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: The Confederate Flag means racism to me and I suspect that many of the people who use it and say "It's really about Southern Pride" are really using it for it's racist meaning.
Would you likewise say that people who use the symbol of the cross are really using it to represent the the atrocities that have been committed under that symbol through the centuries?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: "Southern pride" means "I am not sorry for being a racist who likes guns."
I think anyone who flies the confederate flag these days is either ignorant of or compliant with the vastly negative connotation it has towards blacks, and neither of these things is a good thing, but also that you don't know what you're talking about.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
The level of bigotry and ill will in this whole thread is a little breathtaking.
I wonder if perhaps some of the persistent attachment to the confederate flag is a reaction against Tom's kind of bigotry.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
The thread moved fast and I didn't see where Tom said the term has been co-opted before my post above.
That might be true, and there might be some unsavory connotations, but Tom was making a claim that it always means racist gun nut. That kind of exaggeration is unhelpful.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I wonder if perhaps some of the persistent attachment to the confederate flag is a reaction against Tom's kind of bigotry.
Oh, I'm sure it is. Southerners are very insecure.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote: The Confederate Flag means racism to me and I suspect that many of the people who use it and say "It's really about Southern Pride" are really using it for it's racist meaning.
Would you likewise say that people who use the symbol of the cross are really using it to represent the the atrocities that have been committed under that symbol through the centuries?
No. Why would you think that I would?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:That might be true, and there might be some unsavory connotations, but Tom was making a claim that it always means racist gun nut. That kind of exaggeration is unhelpful.
I can't imagine why anyone who meant "Southern pride" in a way that didn't meant "racist gun nut" would use the term unless it was a conscious attempt to somehow reclaim the term.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote: The Confederate Flag means racism to me and I suspect that many of the people who use it and say "It's really about Southern Pride" are really using it for it's racist meaning.
Would you likewise say that people who use the symbol of the cross are really using it to represent the the atrocities that have been committed under that symbol through the centuries?
A Chris Rock joke comes to mind.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
On a slightly different note, I get am somewhat puzzled about just what it is that some Southerners get nostalgic about in terms of life before and even for some after the Civil War.
You had a few very rich (or very indebted) large landowners (referred to by Jefferson as "poor farmers") who profited on slave labor. As a result of that arrangement, my understanding is that there wasn't much in the way of a middle class, but a large number of the population living in relative poverty.
Unless you happen to be a descendant of one of those large landowners, what is there to be nostalgic about?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
You should hear what people 'round here say about Yankees.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I can't imagine why anyone who meant "Southern pride" in a way that didn't meant "racist gun nut" would use the term unless it was a conscious attempt to somehow reclaim the term.
You weren't aware that there were sincere, non-racist, non-NRA people that were proud of the South's cultural heritage?
Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong people, Tom.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by sndrake: On a slightly different note, I get am somewhat puzzled about just what it is that some Southerners get nostalgic about in terms of life before and even for some after the Civil War.
You had a few very rich (or very indebted) large landowners (referred to by Jefferson as "poor farmers") who profited on slave labor. As a result of that arrangement, my understanding is that there wasn't much in the way of a middle class, but a large number of the population living in relative poverty.
Unless you happen to be a descendant of one of those large landowners, what is there to be nostalgic about?
I don't get that either. In that Cold Mountain movie someone said, you're fighting so rich people can have slaves. That was kind of true.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:In that Cold Mountain movie someone said, you're fighting so rich people can have slaves.
Read the book.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: It's mainly just benign teamism.
I don't think that teamism is always benign.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: It's mainly just benign teamism.
I don't think that teamism is always benign.
I think pride of place in the US mainly is. But you're right, it's not always.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
Much of the south in fact did not want to secede and especially did not want to fight a war. Jones County Mississippi actually seceded from the CSA after the war had started, and several hundred of its men lead by Newt Knight rebelled against the confederacy from within its own borders performing hit and run tactics on supply lines to hinder the military's already poor ability to supply troops.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: You roll your eyes, Katie, but do not answer. What else might inspire someone to fly that particular flag to exhibit "Southern pride" -- pride that is, mind you, somehow distinct from pride in anything else?
"Southern pride" means "I am not sorry for being a racist who likes guns."
I don't know that you've made your case in a way that deserves much of a answer, though. For instance, it took me about three seconds to convince myself that it could mean "I'm not sorry that I live in a state that was part of the Confederacy", and Scott has also offered alternative reasons for "Southern Pride."
There might be no reason for Southern Pride that elevates it beyond "I<3NY", sure, but we don't say that "I<3NY" only means "I love capitalism and anorexia." It's mainly just benign teamism.
"Southern Pride" as a concept, I can definitely see this for. The South has contributed plenty to be proud of and I know many people from the South who rightfully feel a sense of pride.
I don't know that much of these things really fall under the Confederate Flag though. I think very few people, in reference to the flag, as thinking of Tennessee Williams or barbecue ribs or Elvis Presley, etc. They are almost definitely not thinking of Martin Luther King, Jr. or of all the other brave Southerners who fought for civil rights. (They might be thinking of Jesse Helms, though.)
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: ... Would you likewise say that people who use the symbol of the cross are really using it to represent the the atrocities that have been committed under that symbol through the centuries?
Sure, if you insist Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:You weren't aware that there were sincere, non-racist, non-NRA people that were proud of the South's cultural heritage?
I'm aware that they'll tend to speak of being proud of their cultural heritage. And even then, they'll be slightly careful because "cultural heritage" is often a codeword itself.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:In that Cold Mountain movie someone said, you're fighting so rich people can have slaves.
Read the book.
OK. But that movie was depressing as HELL. Was it true that they had gangs of people tormenting folks for not fighting? War sucks on both sides. Urg. I hate it.
But that bluegrass music in the movie was fantastic. Also that choral music. Black folks have also contributed a lot to southern culture and food, let's not forget that. Not to mention the music.
But the whole pride thing about the confederacy makes me go I don't think all of those folks are racist. I saw this rather cute guy in Braintree sporting a if you think this flag is racist you don't know history shirt. That guy was playing harmonica in the rain.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by sndrake: On a slightly different note, I get am somewhat puzzled about just what it is that some Southerners get nostalgic about in terms of life before and even for some after the Civil War.
You had a few very rich (or very indebted) large landowners (referred to by Jefferson as "poor farmers") who profited on slave labor. As a result of that arrangement, my understanding is that there wasn't much in the way of a middle class, but a large number of the population living in relative poverty.
Unless you happen to be a descendant of one of those large landowners, what is there to be nostalgic about?
It's rooted in the period that came directly after the war. The antebellum period is often referred to as the "Moonlight and Magnolias" period. The narrative pressed after the war was that this was a time of peace, a simpler time of prosperity, where Southern paternalism had protected and lived in harmony with blacks, who liked being slaves, until those damned Yankees came and ruined everything.
The South wanted respect following the war, and this is where the "Lost Cause" mentality comes into play. They sold the north on the idea that they had differing equal ideas, and felt that there was no ideological defeat in their loss. The north, so interested in reconciliation and disturbed by accruing economic problems, went along with it with only a minimum of fuss from men like Thaddeus Stevens and Charles Sumner, who were rabid anti-slavery pro-equality figures.
Life wasn't milk and honey for the middle class, but that didn't matter. It was an idealized time period. Think back to how Augustus Caesar used symbols of the old Roman Republic in his Empire to try and play on the romanticized feelings people had for this simpler time. When he took his full imperial title, it wasn't just emperor, it was Imperator, devi fili julio caesaro (father of the great Julius Caesar) pater patriai (father of the people, an old religious title), Tribunica podestes (hearkens back to the old office of Tribube, a position of the people) and there might have been a couple more. I used to have that totally memorized. But the point stands. It doesn't matter how things really were. People wanted to remember their "Moonlight and Magnolias" version, so that's the version that entered the public mindset.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
I think that there is a dramatic differance between the confederacy and southern pride. Never forget that blues came from the south, Muddy Waters, Roy Brown and B.B. King are all southerners and I would hate to dismiss thier contributions to the world because of the CSA.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I don't know that much of these things really fall under the Confederate Flag though.
Agreed.
I'm not ready to call someone whom I've never met 'racist,' though, just because he puts the Rebel flag on his truck's mudflaps. For all that everyone outside of the South condemns it, it has a different value set in the minds of many of those who use it.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Lyrhawn,
So it's kind of how people of Irish descent like me wax nostalgic about how we used to spend grand summer evenings trying to trap leprechauns on the Emerald Isle.
When we weren't starving, that is. ;-/
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Was it true that they had gangs of people tormenting folks for not fighting?
Yes. Living in the South sucked during the war compared to the north, because of the actions of the government and neighbors. The Confederate government passed laws in the back half of the war that set different prices on food for families that had a family member in the army or not. It was an economic inventive to force families to pressure a male member into service, and it was highly successful.
Many men formed local militias under the Ranger Act, where they basically went off into the woods and mountains and were considered regular army, but never had to leave home. What they ended up doing in practice was raiding local towns for food and supplies, tormenting those that didn't leave their families to fight, and descended on towns in drunken hordes to cause mayhem. This was another reason why towns themselves often attempted to shame their men into service, because they'd rather that destruction be visited upon the Yankees than their neighbors. Eventually the Ranger Act was repealed because more soldiers were needed on the front, but bands of men still stayed in the woods and hills raiding towns.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Was it true that they had gangs of people tormenting folks for not fighting?
As far as I know, it was true on both sides. Don't forget, though, that the protagonist wasn't just "not fighting"; he was a deserter.
(I live about five miles from the place where the book begins.)
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:Was it true that they had gangs of people tormenting folks for not fighting?
As far as I know, it was true on both sides. Don't forget, though, that the protagonist wasn't just "not fighting"; he was a deserter.
(I live about five miles from the place where the book begins.)
I think you would enjoy State of Jones which is about Jones county and Newt Knight, not getting off heroin. It would be a great title for a book of that subject though.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
It occurs to me that the cultural reasons given for Southern pride symbolized by the confederate flag can be at least in part if not mostly attributed to the black people who were subjugated under that flag.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Your "realization" is exactly what Tom's been saying all along. It has about the same value.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Little aside: A friend of mine who was a tour guide at Gettysburg when he was younger told me an interesting thing. The "Stars and Bars" flag we now consider "The Confederate Flag" was not the flag of the CSA. It was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. It also didn't look like that. It was a square, not a rectangle.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Your "realization" is exactly what Tom's been saying all along. It has about the same value.
Would you mind if I asked you to respond to this directly, I had intended it towards you when I originally posted it.
quote: Would you still find the symbol to show independant thought and freedom if a Black-American displayed it? surely in the hands of a descendant of slavery it does not and has never meant freedom.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by sndrake: On a slightly different note, I get am somewhat puzzled about just what it is that some Southerners get nostalgic about in terms of life before and even for some after the Civil War.
people become enamored with an ideologically colored ideal of The Way It Used To Be And Should Be that's been pitched to them. It happens all the time.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by sndrake: On a slightly different note, I get am somewhat puzzled about just what it is that some Southerners get nostalgic about in terms of life before and even for some after the Civil War.
people become enamored with an ideologically colored ideal of The Way It Used To Be And Should Be that's been pitched to them. It happens all the time.
I watch it happen in referance to the fifties, with the idea that "there were no gangs, cigarettes didnt give you cancer, people didnt divorce, teenagers didnt have babies and ofcourse politicians were trustworthy" its not always so blatantly silly but I see it nonetheless.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Man, the Fifties needs its own flag.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
AH: Your question doesn't match what I said. I said that when I have encoutered it in person, that is what it meant, according to the person flying it. I haven't ever encountered a black person who used it as their symbol.
So you are first asking me to imagine a situation I've never encountered, and then imagine the motivations for this imaginary person. You aren't going to get anything actually accurate or useful.
My first thought is that the person would have to be doing it for attention, one way or another.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I think anyone flying a flag is doing it for attention, actually.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:It occurs to me that the cultural reasons given for Southern pride symbolized by the confederate flag can be at least in part if not mostly attributed to the black people who were subjugated under that flag.
As far as I can tell, no one has said that the confederate flag symbolizes the cultural reasons given for Southern Pride.
So...I'm not sure what you're talking about.
(And I'll point out that the cultural achievements were not brought about solely by a single race, but by multiple races slam-dancing together.)
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
Most people I knew who bought into the Southern Pride culture (when I was growing up in rural Arkansas) mostly seemed to relate it to a love of trucks and deer hunting. I'd appreciate it if "gun nuts" weren't automatically connected with hunting enthusiasts. My family had guns, and went hunting, yet "gun nut" would not describe them even a little bit. They somehow managed to not be crazy neo-cons preparing for the apocalypse. They just liked a good venison steak.
The historically racist connotations of the confederate flag are there, and are tied into the culture, and I'm not going to deny that. No one in the south has pride over the bonnie blue flag or any of the other flags used by the CSA, for example, probably because no one remembers them any more. Which is unfortunate, since the song is so darn catchy.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: AH: Your question doesn't match what I said. I said that when I have encoutered it in person, that is what it meant, according to the person flying it. I haven't ever encountered a black person who used it as their symbol.
I understood your statement about the flag to mean people doing thier own thing without needing anyones approval (abstract clothing enembles etc.) but you were somewhat obscure in that post so I had to guess. But I would ask two differant questions of then, what do you think the flag would mean to a Black-American today and what would be your assumption of intent if you were to see a descendant of slavery with the confederate flag without context?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: I saw this rather cute guy in Braintree sporting a if you think this flag is racist you don't know history shirt.
Oh? The deal is really that the flag is racist in that it has severe and unavoidable racist connotations. It's the flag of a breakaway confederacy whose rebellion was created and driven in large part by the desire to protect slavery and preserve their slavery-based economic systems. The confederacy itself was racist and intended to enshrine the enslavement of black people as a good and natural thing. As a result, if someone is wearing the confederate flag as a t-shirt or flying it in front of their house, it WILL make most black people and civil rights activists uncomfortable, for good reason. As I mentioned, anyone who displays those flags is either ignorant of that fact, or knows about it is choosing to display it in spite of the fact that they know it has racist connotations. People in either category are likely in addition to have a severely skewed, historically revisionist interpretation of the Confederacy and probably subscribe to the notion that the breakaway of the confederacy had nothing to do with protecting slavery.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
For some people, owning a firearm automatically makes you a gun nut.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: For some people, owning a firearm automatically makes you a gun nut.
Yeah, that's kind of like calling someone a nazi because they have a shaved head.
But it's true. There's a lot of people who think that.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Scott, you said the flag was "an enormous symbol of regional and cultural pride" when Tom asked what that meant beyond racism and guns, you replied that you are, "proud of the South's cultural contributions to food, music, and literature."
Yes, races "slam-dancing together" means that food, music and literature would not be what they are without one of those races. To be proud of Southern culture, one must (even if they don't know it) be proud of black people. Displaying a flag under which those people were oppressed is an odd way to show pride in them.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I don't think Scott's defending the flag, per se, but rather the idea that there are parts of the South worth being proud of.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Ah. The first statement I quoted confused me.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
kmboots:
I remember the conversation a little differently. Mr. Squicky noted that he doubts that people who fly the Stars-n-Bars think of Southern culture in terms of literature, food, and music; I agreed.
When I said that the flag was enormous symbol of cultural and regional pride, I was simply saying that lots of people look at it as a symbol of their heritage. NOT that *I* think it's a positive symbol-- look at my first post in this thread. Obviously, I recognize that the flag has serious negative connotations.
Like I said-- the south is better represented by a flag with Paula Dean's face on it than by the Confederate Flag.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Dude, you guys can do a lot better than Paula Deen. Dolly Parton would be a better and more appropriate flag than that.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Parton's a little too glitzy. Also, she's not much of a singer any more.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Scott, I was addressing the idea of it being both a cultural symbol and a symbol of oppression for a big part of that culture. I did not mean - and I should have made it clearer - that you personally liked or used it as a symbol.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Parton's a little too glitzy. Also, she's not much of a singer any more.
You guys just toss your singers by the wayside when they've outlived their usefulness?
There's always Dollywood.
I'll give you the glitzy thing. What about Reba? Singer, actress, writer, hottest woman I can think of in her age group, well spoke, adorable southern accent, the list goes on.
Posted by The Genuine (Member # 11446) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: You should hear what people 'round here say about Yankees.
I'd love to hear.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Harry Turtledove wrote a very indepth series on the consequences of Southern successful secession, the divergence being that Orders 191 were actually recovered and not fallen into Union hands providing the South a needed victory to gain French and UK recognition, Emmancipation is delayed because signing it would seem like a sign of weakness and desperation.
The US ends up allying with Kaiser's Germany and the CSA with UK and France over the War of Mexican succession, the Panama canal is never built, Japan gets to run amok, Russia remains Tsarist and the CSA becomes fascist instead.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:I don't think you could meaningfully distinguish between "southern pride" and "racism and love of firearms."
I have southern pride, and am not racist, and do not love firearms.
I'm proud of the South's cultural contributions to food, music, and literature. I'm proud that "Southern" goes hand in hand with "hospitality."
I hate that it also means (and has earned, IMO) a connotation toward racism and ignorance.
Huh. So the Confederate flag symbolizes hospitality to you?
Quite frankly, what the Nazis did was absolutely incredible. They pulled Germany out from under the brutal Treaty of Versailles, reclaimed German land, and asserted German might after the unnecessary surrender of WWI. Hitler was a remarkable guy in a lot of ways, and certainly symbolizes a form of German pride.
But the Nazi flag doesn't symbolize hard work and bratwurst. And we rightfully pity the sad examples of humanity who think tying their identities to a flag makes them more interesting.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Harry Turtledove wrote a very indepth series on the consequences of Southern successful secession, the divergence being that Orders 191 were actually recovered and not fallen into Union hands providing the South a needed victory to gain French and UK recognition, Emmancipation is delayed because signing it would seem like a sign of weakness and desperation.
The US ends up allying with Kaiser's Germany and the CSA with UK and France over the War of Mexican succession, the Panama canal is never built, Japan gets to run amok, Russia remains Tsarist and the CSA becomes fascist instead.
I thought the mockumentary "CSA" was pretty interesting. In it, the British send troops to Gettysburg and the North loses. The south forces the north to buy slaves or else face massive economic penalties, so everyone has slaves now. The new CSA then conquers Canada and South America. Some of it is pretty cleverly insidious.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
For the record, I've enjoyed the time I spent in the South. The people were fantastically friendly, the woods were beautiful, and the food was delicious.
But that's true everywhere, to some degree. Does anyone really think citizens of Alabama are friendlier than citizens of Vermont? There's really nothing special about the South, besides the wild-eyed political tendencies people have about turrists and libruls.
And that's the real problem, I think. Most of America's like the South -- endless suburbia, without the intimacy and culture of cities. Southern pride seems like a tragic effort at asserting SOME form of identity in a cultural void.
I know what it's like, I'm from LA. And while I have patriotic love for my home city, there's no real REASON for it. LA's terrible. If my life were so empty, I could fly a bear flag from my window, insist that highways and Mexican food are a cultural identity, and get self-righteous when others criticize the poverty and illiteracy of Californians... but I have better things to do.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Except Vermont is not "the real America" Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:So the Confederate flag symbolizes hospitality to you?
Lalo, I've said exactly the contrary.
quote:I was addressing the idea of it being both a cultural symbol and a symbol of oppression for a big part of that culture.
Yeah; I said the same thing. Funny.
quote:You guys just toss your singers by the wayside when they've outlived their usefulness?
Nah, but seriously-- singers are like sports heroes. Half the value of a singer's legacy is knowing when to get out of the game.
quote: Originally posted by Scott R: You should hear what people 'round here say about Yankees. --- I'd love to hear.
I was being facetious; no one actually talks about Yankees here except old folks.
It's like you don't even matter enough to complain about!
quote:There's really nothing special about the South, besides the wild-eyed political tendencies people have about turrists and libruls.
I didn't think so either, until I'd traveled the world a little while, and been around the country for a while, and put some years on.
Like I said above, I've been a lot of places. I love Seattle; and I love Boston. Wisconsin was phenomenal, and Utah was splendid.
For me, Virginia is home. Texas is where I'm rooted. I love the good food, the good music, the history and craziness of being Southern. It's a niche I fit in; it's part of my identity. The dichotomy of being Southern is distinctly appealing to me: the small and large ironies of our histories and our stereotypes fascinates and compels me.
There's only one place that compares to the South in terms of my personal identity, and that is Italy-- for entirely different, and non-nationalistic/regionalistic reasons.
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
What I find startling is the number of confederate flag license plates I see here in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada! Surely they're not all southern state ex-pats. I can only assume they're either racist or wholly ignorant and just think it's a cool-looking flag.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: There's only one place that compares to the South in terms of my personal identity, and that is Italy-- for entirely different, and non-nationalistic/regionalistic reasons.
That's where the baby-eating fetish started, eh?
-Bok
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
As a foreigner, I can definitely recognise that there is a Southern identity. I've spent time in New Jersey and California, and they're great and all, but I'd love to go to Louisiana, Texas, Alabama, etc. Those places seem crazy, unhinged, exciting, incredibly friendly and much more unique than the northern parts of America.
I remember as a kid going to a hotel in South Carolina. One night, after access to the hotel pool had been closed down from the inside, me and some friends had sneaked out the back to hop the fence and get into it from the outside. Well once we were over the fence, we heard a shout coming from a balcony from one of the rooms high above looking down at us. Next thing we know, a plastic chair slams into the ground not five feet away from us, having been thrown off the balcony. That thing literally could have killed one of us.
That's what I'm talking about, I guarantee you that would happen in very few places in the whole world. This person saw intruders, and didn't react by calling security or police, nor did they give any time after a warning shout to let those intruders flee the scene. They just took responsibility into their own hands, probably assuming there were terrorists afoot (admittedly, the friends with me were brown-skinned, but from that height and at the time of night I doubt anyone could tell), and threw a chair down 10-15 stories, taking no consideration for human life. That is just an awesome kind of insanity that I think people need to experience.
Plus, southern food is delish.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I live in the skinniest, most physically fit state in the nation. Every time I go to the south, I am utterly amazed at how fat people start getting, usually because my first interaction is either when I bust out at an airport terminal into a food court or I stop in a gas station. And BOOM there they are. Fat people. I cannot help but have that be the first thing that jumps out at me, but it's because I've gone from the skinniest region to the fattest.
It's just visceral noise, though. Not a good way to judge the south. So I put it behind me, as well as the social data which makes the south look so grim. And, of course, it's full of wonderful places and people, and I always have fun.
At this point though I don't think I could ever live there.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
I am a Redskins fan. There was no particular reason I could give to argue that the Redskins were the best this year, but I am still a fan and was proud to display my Redskins gear. Flying a Redskins flag does not imply I think Daniel Snyder is a great owner, or that the Redskins offensive scheme is the best, or that I like names derived from Native American stereotypes. No, all it means is that I associate myself with the Redskins and root for them.
My point in saying that is: You don't always need a defined reason in order to have "pride" in something you associate yourself with.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
Tresopax: You might not need a reason to have pride in something you associate yourself with, but you often do need a reason to actually display and promote that pride. And going up the ladder, the odds of having a reason go up in the face of reasonable and fierce opposition.
Note that even katharina theorises that there is a reason:
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I wonder if perhaps some of the persistent attachment to the confederate flag is a reaction against Tom's kind of bigotry.
Displaying a confederate flag is not merely a statement of pride, but it is also a statement that you disagree with/discount the positions against that flag (or at the very least, are keeping one's self in willful ignorance about those positions). As Scott R points out, it is not like the confederate flag is the only way of displaying pride in the south.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:...endless suburbia, without the intimacy and culture of cities.
Isn't a very common complaint about cities that they foster distance and a lack of intimacy? The things you're describing are parts of the human condition, not a speciality of 'suburbia' which really sounds more like a political statement than anything else.
You're right about culture, though. Cities are more likely to have that by virtue of a concentration of money and people. Are the people in cities more likely to avail themselves of it, though?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: I am a Redskins fan.
oh, I get what you're saying here, racist gun nut Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Oh, let's be fair. You can like the Redskins without being a racist gun nut. You just have to be stupid. Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
To wave the flag of an insurrectionist movement that cost so many American lives and pretend that it does not, or cannot mean that you support the ideals of a people whose lives were based on slavery to the point that they would secede when they were not allowed to expand thier slavery is foolish and argumentitive. Being from the south does not make a person any one way, being German does not make me a nazi or even consider David Hasselhof to be a good singer. Displaying the banner of those who would terrorize, hate, war and enslave for nothing other than personal want does in fact reflect thier history on to how those around you react to you.
So if you really believe that the confederate flag is nothing more than a graphic with a meaning to chosen by who ever waves it, next time you see a man with a swastika tattooed on his neck attempt to rationalize why he would do that if he simply enjoyed the image and didnt really care about the concensus on what it means.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I think that's a simplistic argument that's already been addressed in this thread, AH.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: To proudly fly the Confederate flag today, whatever it might once have meant, is to say, "I am racist and collect guns, and will be aggressively unapologetic about either of those things."
Not for everyone. I know people who flew it in MI, as they lived next to us, and they were not racists. Not at all.
I was a kid, and didn't understand all of their reasons why they flew it for years, and maybe still don't now, but they were VERY proud of their family history and flew it for that reason. They were heavily into black powder guns, but didn't own modern firearms at all, and were some of the nicest people I ever met.
But it still was weird living next to them when they flew it, and I didn't like it. I knew they did it because they were related to Robert E. Lee, and a lot of their family had fought for the Confederates, but it was still difficult to understand why they flew it.
[ March 13, 2010, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Haters never understand why the peoople they despise don't loathe themselves as much as the haters loathe them.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote: To proudly fly the Confederate flag today, whatever it might once have meant, is to say, "I am racist and collect guns, and will be aggressively unapologetic about either of those things."
This is only a reasonable assertion so long as the person in question hasn't had a chance to explain why they fly the flag (or wear any other objectionable material, for that matter). That initial assumption about them can be tolerated because it's so often true, but a specific individual might do so for any number of reasons, and Tom, you're hardly in a position to point to a given individual and say with such certainty why they wear or show something than that complete stranger is about something you do.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Tom, you're hardly in a position to point to a given individual...
Ah. But I'm not. I am speaking in the general case OF the general case. Someone might, for example, fly the Confederate flag because they like the pretty colors and patterns and are too brain-damaged to know otherwise. Someone else might fly it for other reasons.
But, overwhelmingly, people fly it because they are racist gun nuts. If you choose to fly the Confederate flag, you are choosing to either announce your status as a racist gun nut or your willingness to argue about what the flag means to you personally every time someone wrongly assumes that you're flying the flag for the usual reason.
As has been pointed out, it's like wearing a swastika on your armband. Maybe you like traditional good luck symbols. Maybe you're really proud of your grandfather, who was in the SS and was a really stand-up guy in all other respects. Maybe you think some of Nazi Germany's ideas were really good ones, and are willing to overlook the ones that you consider odious. Heck, maybe you're just proud of your family's Nazi heritage for some reason. But to roll your eyes at people who assume -- for some ridiculous reason -- that you are a Nazi-sympathizing jerkwad? That's just disingenuous and passive-aggressive.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:But to roll your eyes at people who assume -- for some ridiculous reason -- that you are a Nazi-sympathizing jerkwad? That's just disingenuous and passive-aggressive.
Like you, I'm not:)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, good.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:But, overwhelmingly, people fly it because they are racist gun nuts. If you choose to fly the Confederate flag, you are choosing to either announce your status as a racist gun nut or your willingness to argue about what the flag means to you personally every time someone wrongly assumes that you're flying the flag for the usual reason.
Can we separate "gun nuts" from "racist" please? I mean, my family might qualify as "gun nuts" in that we own quite a few and shoot them often (my 9 year old is a crack target shooter with a .22!) but we are not racists.
In fact, I spend my days educating black students and my husband spends his days rendering medical care to inner city residents who are predominantly black...we just like shooting little paper targets with guns.
People can like guns and believe in the 2nd amendment and not be racist. Maybe that isn't an important distinction to make...or maybe it is. At any rate, I wanted to point it out.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
I understand how that flag represents horrible things to one group of people and tradition to another. Being a Yankee, my heritage isn't vested in one side or the other. Yet I believe erasing history isn't the right answer. The ancient Egyptians made attempts to strike down all images of perceived tyrant predecessors of their time. Where they succeeded, they deprived all humanity the truth. The truth is, the confederate flag is a symbol of racism to many blacks and whites but to some it is a symbol of heritage. No group of people are all bad or all good. Even the pure evil shouldn't be erased,...people need to know what evil was in order to know what evil is. Revisionist history only sets us up to repeat history. Moussolinni and Hitler were quite popular in their day. We've erased their common man/proletariat/working class popularity from early 20th century American history. Before he killed millions of Jews, his words rang bells with millions of Americans. When history becomes PC, we're destined to repeat it.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle:
quote:But, overwhelmingly, people fly it because they are racist gun nuts. If you choose to fly the Confederate flag, you are choosing to either announce your status as a racist gun nut or your willingness to argue about what the flag means to you personally every time someone wrongly assumes that you're flying the flag for the usual reason.
Can we separate "gun nuts" from "racist" please? I mean, my family might qualify as "gun nuts" in that we own quite a few and shoot them often (my 9 year old is a crack target shooter with a .22!) but we are not racists.
In fact, I spend my days educating black students and my husband spends his days rendering medical care to inner city residents who are predominantly black...we just like shooting little paper targets with guns.
People can like guns and believe in the 2nd amendment and not be racist. Maybe that isn't an important distinction to make...or maybe it is. At any rate, I wanted to point it out.
Tom's point is that people who like flying the Confederate flag are usually showing off their affinity for guns and racism. He's not saying all racists love the Confederate flag, nor that all gun nuts are racists.
Speaking of, the Supreme Court recently signaled that they're willing to hear a case that might incorporate the Second Amendment at long last. While that's fantastically terrible news, I think it's long overdue. I hate the idea of incorporating rights over time under judicial interpretations of "ordered liberty."
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle:
quote:But, overwhelmingly, people fly it because they are racist gun nuts. If you choose to fly the Confederate flag, you are choosing to either announce your status as a racist gun nut or your willingness to argue about what the flag means to you personally every time someone wrongly assumes that you're flying the flag for the usual reason.
Can we separate "gun nuts" from "racist" please? I mean, my family might qualify as "gun nuts" in that we own quite a few and shoot them often (my 9 year old is a crack target shooter with a .22!) but we are not racists.
In fact, I spend my days educating black students and my husband spends his days rendering medical care to inner city residents who are predominantly black...we just like shooting little paper targets with guns.
People can like guns and believe in the 2nd amendment and not be racist. Maybe that isn't an important distinction to make...or maybe it is. At any rate, I wanted to point it out.
That's good to know. Racism is so uncool. I'm more of a sword nut myself. Samurai swords are beautiful.
I want a pair of authentic samurai swords.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: I understand how that flag represents horrible things to one group of people and tradition to another. Being a Yankee, my heritage isn't vested in one side or the other. Yet I believe erasing history isn't the right answer. The ancient Egyptians made attempts to strike down all images of perceived tyrant predecessors of their time. Where they succeeded, they deprived all humanity the truth. The truth is, the confederate flag is a symbol of racism to many blacks and whites but to some it is a symbol of heritage. No group of people are all bad or all good. Even the pure evil shouldn't be erased,...people need to know what evil was in order to know what evil is. Revisionist history only sets us up to repeat history. Moussolinni and Hitler were quite popular in their day. We've erased their common man/proletariat/working class popularity from early 20th century American history. Before he killed millions of Jews, his words rang bells with millions of Americans. When history becomes PC, we're destined to repeat it.
The thing is, nobody's trying to erase history. Is anyone trying to ban the Confederate flag? It has tremendous historical worth, as does the swastika. And people who wear either today are generally trashy rednecks.
All that's fine, but I'd rather not have the Confederate flag OR the swastika flying from a state building. Historical value aside.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:There's really nothing special about the South, besides the wild-eyed political tendencies people have about turrists and libruls.
I didn't think so either, until I'd traveled the world a little while, and been around the country for a while, and put some years on.
Like I said above, I've been a lot of places. I love Seattle; and I love Boston. Wisconsin was phenomenal, and Utah was splendid.
For me, Virginia is home. Texas is where I'm rooted. I love the good food, the good music, the history and craziness of being Southern. It's a niche I fit in; it's part of my identity. The dichotomy of being Southern is distinctly appealing to me: the small and large ironies of our histories and our stereotypes fascinates and compels me.
There's only one place that compares to the South in terms of my personal identity, and that is Italy-- for entirely different, and non-nationalistic/regionalistic reasons.
I hear you about Italy. I recently lived a full year in Florence, and it cemented the idea that Europe is my true home. It's not even that hard to get by, since if you speak one romance language you speak them all.
In my dream world, my apartment would be in Spain, my wife would be French, my cook would be Italian, my dog would be German, and we would pass the time by laughing at the British.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
To me the confederate flag represents the collision of states rights and individual rights. Federally, individuals have certain rights, including freedom. Southern states believed blacks were not human and not deserving constitutionally mandated individual rights. To me, the confederate flag represents something horrible and something wonderful. I'm a strong believer in state's rights and individual freedom.
Many people love the "rebel" flag as a symbol of freedom and independence. Some fly it as a symbol of hate. Anyone who attacks the confederate flag as a symbol of hate can not be intellectually honest while defending "good" or "moderate" Muslims. There are peaceful Muslims and Jihadist Muslims. You don't get the same all or nothing reaction over the Koran from the very same people attacking the confederate flag. You forget that flag represented half this nation during a civil war...talk about revisionist history of the victor. That flag is an important part of our history.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Huh?
It's kind of a negative depressing part of our history. Urg. Slavery.
It's a sore point with me being that I am black.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
The confederate flag is a symbol of hate to many but some put on the side of their Harly's to represent freedom. That flag is the ultimate contradiction. It represents freedom to some and oppression to others.
Outlawing a symbol of an ugly history is no different than smashing the face off your predecessor's statue in ancient Egypt or the Taliban blowing up 3000 year old statues of Buddha in Afghanistan. Our history is ugly but history shouldn't be erased or outlawed.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
Mal:
I don't want to outlaw the flag, and I doubt that most people do. Free speech protects people's right to fly it, but I think flying it is in incredibly bad taste. To me, it's not a question of hiding an ugly history but displaying pride in one of the ugliest aspects of our history.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:That flag is the ultimate contradiction. It represents freedom to some and oppression to others.
Specifically, the people to whom it represents freedom have to not care that, to the vast majority of black people in this country, it represents oppression.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Mal how the heck did you manage to bring Muslems into this discussion. Thats some insane troll logic you have going there.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Blayne, don't post-stalk.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fyfe: Mal:
I don't want to outlaw the flag, and I doubt that most people do. Free speech protects people's right to fly it, but I think flying it is in incredibly bad taste. To me, it's not a question of hiding an ugly history but displaying pride in one of the ugliest aspects of our history.
You can't interpret the intent of the person who waves that flag. Assuming that anyone who has a confederate flag license plate border is a racist, is in itself racist stereotyping. That flag doesn't represent racism to everyone who dispays it.
All people have negative aspects to their history. Being proud of who you are and where you come from, isn't being proud of the negative aspects of your heritage.
In the Middle East, an American flag is probably worse than a confederate flag is here. They burn the stars and stripes for the evil things America has done. I acknowledge America has done horrible things yet I still have the Stars and Stripes in my front yard. I don't care who it offends.
[ March 15, 2010, 04:21 AM: Message edited by: malanthrop ]
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
I didn't say anything about racism in relation to the Confederate flag. I said that it's in bad taste to fly it, and I think it truly is. Flying the flag, regardless of intent, displays a remarkable insensitivity to the years of oppression that people of color have experienced in this country. Whether people who fly the flag intend to be racist or not, flying that flag contributes (I think) to a fraught racial dynamic. I think it would be in better taste not to have it.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
I just find it amusing how many people wouldn't (and haven't) recognize the first Confederate national flag if it were flying.
Our of curiosity, does the Battle Flag mean anything different to everyone than the original 'Stars and Bars' flag? Or do they the same thing?
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
quote:If you choose to fly the Confederate flag, you are choosing to either announce your status as a racist gun nut or your willingness to argue about what the flag means to you personally every time someone wrongly assumes that you're flying the flag for the usual reason. . . . But to roll your eyes at people who assume -- for some ridiculous reason -- that you are a Nazi-sympathizing jerkwad? That's just disingenuous and passive-aggressive.
QFT. Of course it is entirely possible that someone could fly the Confed flag for banal reasons, but if they think they aren't sending a very specific message, they are either stupid or lying.
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