Head of my country, Lech Kaczynski died in a plane crush. On board with him were most important officials in Poland. They were to commemorate the death of thousands of Polish officers killed in Katyn forest 70 years ago.
10th of april truly is the worst date in our history.
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
This is really horrible. Some of the people I live with at the moment are Polish, and they're all out today. It's going to be terrible when they get home and discover that this has happened.
To you and everyone else, my sympathies.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
My best wishes to our neighbors to the north in their difficult hour.
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
That is tragic. My condolences to you and your countrymen, Szymon.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
It never ceases to amaze me just how many tragedies in modern history can be attributed to human error rather then malicious intent.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
Thanks. Where are you from, Orincoro?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Not to be the conspiracy theorist here but, are we 100% sure that it was human error and not malicious intent? Russia has been pretty pissy with Poland for quite some time now because of their cooperation with the US missile shield program, among other things. And the plane appears to have been recently overhauled, which makes maintenance an unlikely culprit. I'd rather it was just an accident than on purpose, people will get over a tragedy a lot quicker than a murder.
Regardless, you have my sympathies and condolences Szymon.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
Lyrhawn, even altough our relations arent perfect, I am quite sure Russia wouldnt dare, this is unthinkable. It would certainly lead to war, probably even world war, for Poland is in NATO.
It is an amazing thing though, whats happening right now in Poland. All of our politicians cry, mourn their yesterdays opponents. I personally didny like Kaczynski, now I have forgotten why. My friend's father died in that crash.
Jesus, it so so sad.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
It appears to be thus far pretty clear that the pilot ignored ground controls request to land in either Minsk or Moscow and tried to land when it was foggy around Smolensk.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
what Blayne said.
Lyrhawn, that really does sound like a conspiracy theory there Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
That's a pretty remarkable power vacuum. I'm amazed by the news. What a tragedy.
Kaczynski was that hardcore catholic guy, right?
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
A non-conforimist, patriot and catholic. In that order:) Maybe even a nationalist.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: It never ceases to amaze me just how many tragedies in modern history can be attributed to human error rather then malicious intent.
I am glad that more people make mistakes rather than being murderers, myself. Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
I thought this was going to be about the Unabomber.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
Ugh. Why put all your officials in one plane?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
We do the same thing with Air Force One all the time. Lots of nations do. Maybe not quite such a concentration with their military leaders as well, but it's not that unusual.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I'm sorry Szymon. Terrible. Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
what's the alternative? send 10 planes? No-one could afford that.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
From my understanding it hasn't created a huge power vacuum within the government, because none of the ministers, including the the Prime Minister, were aboard the flight. Sounds like it's really the military that's been hit hardest by this.
In any case it still sucks for the Poles.
(And on another note: Hi Kama)
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: We do the same thing with Air Force One all the time. Lots of nations do. Maybe not quite such a concentration with their military leaders as well, but it's not that unusual.
it would be like having the president, vp, the entire cabinet including sec of defense and sec of state, the chief of staff, the military chiefs, and some congressional leaders all on one plane.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
jebus
quote:it would be like having the president, vp, the entire cabinet including sec of defense and sec of state, the chief of staff, the military chiefs, and some congressional leaders all on one plane.
well, no. The government is intact. And the president in Poland does not have the same amount of power the American president has.
indeed, it is the military that was hit the hardest.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
No, the US President is both the head of state and the head of government. In Poland and most other parliamentary republics, an elected president is only the head of state -- ie fills a role closer to that of QueenElizabethII than that of BarackObama -- while the PrimeMinister is the head of government.
From everything I've read of or by the Kaczynski twins, it is FAR more likely that the incident was near-equivalent to a suicide-murder; with Lech as the mad bomber and the pilot allowing himself to be ordered to play the bomb. Intentional, definitely NOT -- but an accident in the sense of an alcoholic crashing a high-powered car at top speed cuz he was way too drunk to walk.
[ April 10, 2010, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
I thought this was about the unabomber.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: We do the same thing with Air Force One all the time. Lots of nations do. Maybe not quite such a concentration with their military leaders as well, but it's not that unusual.
Heads of state, yes, perhaps we do that now and again on Air Force One. But putting our entire military command in one command is strategically unsound, and I seriously doubt the U.S. Government would even consider doing that.
And, quite honestly it is Air Force One: the single safest airplane in the sky. There's a big difference between that and a "standard issue" Tupolev 154.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kama: what's the alternative? send 10 planes? No-one could afford that.
Well its better than having this happen. The alternative is not having all of your officials in one place. The same thing applies when you have meetings in buildings on the ground, where a single bomb could cause the same effect. The only buildings in America where this philosophy doesn't apply are the White House and Capital Hill, and those are two of the most secure sites in America.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
It is horrible. I'm sorry for your country.
I would like to suggest that they will never again put so many officials in one vulnerable place but "never again" pledges fade within a decade.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
That sounds like a cheap political shot.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Deaths are sad, but I'm not so convinced this is a horrible thing for Poland or the Poles. Politicians and officers are replaceable where human beings are not.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Szymon: Thanks. Where are you from, Orincoro?
I'm from the states, but I'm now a fairly long term Czech resident.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Deaths are sad, but I'm not so convinced this is a horrible thing for Poland or the Poles. Politicians and officers are replaceable where human beings are not.
*cough katyn massacre and historical context cough*
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: That sounds like a cheap political shot.
It isn't a cheap political shot. The greatest tragedies of a nation are forgotten quite quicky. I didn't specify any particular situation. Do you have a particular situation in mind? Time heals all wounds.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
If you hadn't spent 6 months raving like a complete lune I would believe that, as it stands you did and thus I don't.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: I'm sorry Szymon. Terrible.
Agreed.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
quote:The alternative is not having all of your officials in one place.
but we didn't! we had all of the military command one one place, which is stupid, I agree, but no-one from the government.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
also, from what I just read, according to military procedures, chiefs and their deputies cannot travel together. this procedure has been followed.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
Kama, you know how many planes our government has? Two, till yesterday. One right now. We have military transport aircrafts, but thats not too representative, is it?
Kama is right, President, about twenty members of the parliament, and some deputies. Sounds like a normal delegation to me. If it werent for those generals! Chief of staff! Chiefs of ground, air, special forces and navy. Unbelivable. They COULD use military aircrafts.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Deaths are sad, but I'm not so convinced this is a horrible thing for Poland or the Poles. Politicians and officers are replaceable where human beings are not.
*cough katyn massacre and historical context cough*
Well yes, but just at the moment Poland is in the unusually favourable situation of not being at war or occupied by foreign troops. They have the luxury of time to promote some lower-ranking officers and whatnot. It's a tragedy for the dead and their families, but for the nation of Poland it is at most a rather unpleasant shock.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I realize that your flippant attitude about the deaths of core members of another country's government seem to you to be something other than chauvinist hand-waving at the poor damaged people of central Europe, but from where I'm sitting it comes off as more than just a little insulting. Perhaps you are not, despite your great intellect, acquainted with the real life social consequences of such an event, and choose to minimize your estimations of how it might affect people emotionally to have a number of key leaders wiped out in a single event. Perhaps once you've attempted to fully consider that aspect of this tragedy, you will stop talking as if you are in command of all the factors involved here.
Also you might then stop buying the spin that the mainstream media has already slapped on this event because according to them, anything that happens here is inconsequential to the rest of the developed world, and Central Europe is just the middle of a bigger chessboard, with the more important pieces elsewhere. It's an insulting attitude and you have no idea, frankly, the effect that it has on people who live here.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
My reaction would have been the same had, let's say, Obama, three top-ranking generals, and some high-level people from the Pentagon died in a plane crash.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Yeah, well then you're not as smart as I thought.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I realize that your flippant attitude about the deaths of core members of another country's government seem to you to be something other than chauvinist hand-waving at the poor damaged people of central Europe(...) It's an insulting attitude and you have no idea, frankly, the effect that it has on people who live here.
I obviously am far from being impartial here, but I think you have a point. We Poles, despite being on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain for 40 years, are not that different to the rest of Europe. Sure we have a lot to catch up, but trust me, we certainly are not the third world. We had a constitution before any other country in Europe, even France, just after the US. I have Internet in my home since 1997 or sth. I feel no different from you. I wear jeans and collect Hard Rock Cafe t-shirts all around the world. You know what I mean? And every weekend play paintball with my friends.
And we are truly sad about the death of our President, the First Lady, who now seem irreplacable. They always were people, never just the positions they held.
I dont know if I made my point;)
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
And, we have two HRCs in Poland! Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
quote:Politicians and officers are replaceable where human beings are not.
um, not sure you realise, but they were human beings.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Ironic that Kama would reveal that Poland doesn't even use androids for their politicians yet right after Szymon defended how advanced the country is.
Ireland is somewhere in between, we're not up to androids yet, but we have replaced our politicians with above-average intelligence chimps.
So far things are running much smoother, unemployment and banana taxes are at their lowest ever.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
the androids are still in the testing phase, so far we only let the run regional governments.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Sure, is that why the sent you to infiltrate the UN, K.A.M.A???
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
EU, silly.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kama:
quote:Politicians and officers are replaceable where human beings are not.
um, not sure you realise, but they were human beings.
Perhaps you are missing the distinction I was making? In their capacity as officers and whatnot, these people are replaceable; and that's the capacity in which most Poles knew them. They can hardly have met face-to-face with any large fraction of the Polish population. As human beings they are indeed irreplaceable, but only their immediate circle - family and friends - knew them as such. Consequently it is a tragedy for the families, but as for Poland, eh, it is not yet seriously discommoded.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
:sigh: Dude, what are you trying to prove here?
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
are you Polish? Have you been out on the streets of Warsaw when the casket with the President's body was being transported home? Have a look at the photos below and then tell me again that this is not a tragedy for the Poles:
and let me quote Szymon's post above, which you also seem to have missed:
quote:And we are truly sad about the death of our President, the First Lady, who now seem irreplacable. They always were people, never just the positions they held.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:As human beings they are indeed irreplaceable, but only their immediate circle - family and friends - knew them as such. Consequently it is a tragedy for the families, but as for Poland, eh, it is not yet seriously discommoded.
People can be important and irreplacable to you even if you've never met them face to face.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Not as people, they can't.
As for the Poles, public hysteria does not a tragedy make.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
you're right. it's nothing.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Consequently it is a tragedy for the families, but as for Poland, eh, it is not yet seriously discommoded.
If you want a hint to sort of nudge you into the right direction, this event will be near-unanimously known, referred to, and remembered as a tragedy.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Its good to know that Knut Haugland's death didn't have an emotional effect on anyone he hadn't met personally. Heck, he wasn't even doing anything that would make it have political impact.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Consequently it is a tragedy for the families, but as for Poland, eh, it is not yet seriously discommoded.
If you want a hint to sort of nudge you into the right direction, this event will be near-unanimously known, referred to, and remembered as a tragedy.
That remains to be seen. In any case it's not a point where I would substitute the judgement of the media for my own.
quote:It's good to know that Knut Haugland's death didn't have an emotional effect on anyone he hadn't met personally. Heck, he wasn't even doing anything that would make it have political impact.
I don't believe I treated it as anything other than a news story which would remind people of the events of WWII. I would certainly never dream of claiming that his death was a tragedy for Norwegians. Emotional effect != tragedy. Heck, I've been known to get emotionally affected by reading about completely fictional characters for the third time.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kama: EU, silly.
That's what you want us to think!
*adjusts tin-foil hat*
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Perhaps you're not aware of the definition of tragedy, then? It is defined in terms of emotional reaction. If it causes great sadness, it is a tragedy.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Consequently it is a tragedy for the families, but as for Poland, eh, it is not yet seriously discommoded.
If you want a hint to sort of nudge you into the right direction, this event will be near-unanimously known, referred to, and remembered as a tragedy.
That remains to be seen. In any case it's not a point where I would substitute the judgement of the media for my own.
No but you could use it to eventually figure out that this event is exactly what is commonly referred to as a 'tragedy' because it is a tragedy.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Emotional effect != tragedy. Heck, I've been known to get emotionally affected by reading about completely fictional characters for the third time.
Since it wasn't a tragedy, it must have been a comedy, neh? Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: Perhaps you're not aware of the definition of tragedy, then? It is defined in terms of emotional reaction. If it causes great sadness, it is a tragedy.
It is possible that you would find this definition in a dictionary; I don't think, however, that this is the common usage. Rather, people call something a tragedy if it has large, negative effects other than emotion. Thus, the German invasion was a tragedy for Poland: People were getting killed all over the place. The various partitions were tragedies: People lost long-standing rights. Katyn was a tragedy: The military had to be rebuilt from scratch after the war, leading to a much reduced ability to stand up to Russian demands. (Plus I'll admit to some scaling effects in murders; contrary to Stalin, a million deaths is more of a tragedy than a single one, even for a nation as a whole.) But the loss of a few officers and pols in this peacetime? A mere sadness.
By your standard, depending on the student, getting a 'B' on an essay could be a tragedy!
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Emotional effect != tragedy. Heck, I've been known to get emotionally affected by reading about completely fictional characters for the third time.
Since it wasn't a tragedy, it must have been a comedy, neh?
By KOM's definition, most tragedies aren't even tragic!
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
You seem to be confusing tragedy with disaster; I agree that there's a certain amount of mixture of the definitions in common usage, though.
However, if you want to talk about usage as the defining characteristic, you're just digging even deeper. Tragedy has a long history of being used for the deaths of national leaders.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
On reflection, it seems possible we are arguing semantics. Suppose I say that this is not a disaster for the Polish people, can we agree on that?
Edit: Wup, cross-posted with the above.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
On reflection, it seems possible you were only interested in miring the thread in a semantic discussion for your personal amusement.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I should point out that Stalin never actually said that popular phrase and was something his biographer made up, (albeit something the biographer believed it was something it would be in character for him to say).
But anyways, is 1,000,000 deaths is a statistic and a single death is a tragedy then that must mean that at some point as deaths approach a arbitrarily large enough it will become divergent and become a statistic but for as long as it approaches 0 it will be convergent and remain a tragedy.
Ergo 90 something deaths by virtue of being a small number is still a tragedy!!!
Math for the win! *tongue in cheek*
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I don't think you understand what 'divergent' means; and as already established, I'm the only one in the thread who understands what 'tragedy' means. Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Ah yes, the definition that lines up with neither the dictionary nor common usage must clearly be the correct understanding . . .
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: I don't think you understand what 'divergent' means; and as already established, I'm the only one in the thread who understands what 'tragedy' means.
Divergent is when you have an infinite series that goes to a large number while convergent goes to 0 or a single number.(I think)
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
"Tragedy is when I prick my finger. Comedy is when you fall down an open sewer and die."
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: I don't think you understand what 'divergent' means; and as already established, I'm the only one in the thread who understands what 'tragedy' means.
Or 'disaster,' apparently*
*actual english definitions do not apply to KoMspeak
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
KoM,
I don't think this is a semantic issue. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the point you are making that Polish individuals who are unrelated to and never met the people killed by this crash do not need to be as upset as they are?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
No, King of Men is saying that the deaths of the senior military officers is not a disaster to the polish people, arguably this is true since while it is harmful in the short run Poland is not conducting any wars for its existence right now so in a few years it should have fully recovered and in the short term can be covered by promoting the deputies.
In short it is a tragedy/disaster in the definition of something really really bad happening KoM however disagrees on whether it is a disaster to Poland to the same extant as say the Polish Partitions.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Whether a disaster is a disaster to the extent of other disasters is a much different question than "is this event a disaster" or "is this event a disaster for Poland"
1. will the event be recalled as a disaster by the polish people: yes 2. will the event essentially be classified historically as a disastrous national event by poland: yes
oboy, time for some off-kilter irrelevant prescriptivism
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: KoM,
I don't think this is a semantic issue. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the point you are making that Polish individuals who are unrelated to and never met the people killed by this crash do not need to be as upset as they are?
Indeed, it's also true that the Poles are overreacting a bit; but this happens with practically any public event in every nation. The US overreacted to 9/11, and also overreacted to the Tiger Woods thing. Norway went way too bananas over curling back in February. France is, frankly, making a mountain of hijabs where there ought to be a molehill of dress codes. And so on. It's an unfortunate side effect of having primate instincts wired to groups of about 150 combined with media networks bringing you issues of the day from 5 billion people. If Poland was a hunter-gatherer tribe, then having the top five warriors killed in one accident would indeed be a disaster, except to the ambitious young men of course.
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