It struck me, after reviewing the ultimate version of the Star Wars saga--Star Wars Lego for the Wii--why we are all safe from the ravages of the evil Empire, and other Jedi influences.
The evil empire's armed forces and political machine, and a good percentage of the most powerful Jedi were all human. Luke, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace, etc, etc,.
But in that galaxy far, far away, human woman apparently all come from one place--Alderan.
Don't argue with me about what you read in books. While some say that some books count, I'm just going by the movies, and an even more limited interpretation, what I remember from the movies. And what I remember is that the women were missing.
I mean it looks very modern for the Rebel Alliance to have a woman fighting on their side, leading the troops, etc. But she is the only woman to be seen. The entire Empirical Army, every Rebel, not to mention the clones, are all men. In all 6 movies, every person who is human is either male, from Alderan, or is a refuge/slave on the distant planet of Tattoine.
Alderan apparently has a special place for the woman, because all of them we meet are apparently Princesses. They take turns being queen.
There is a theory that the Sith, lead by Palpatine--from Alderan--was Anakin's father. His mother was a slave--I imagine stolen from Alderan. Her sister followed her. This explains the only two women in Star Wars not specifically part of the Alderan government.
All women in Star Wars can be found on Alderan.
Now, Darth Vader grows up, and General I.Forget-the-dummies-name, decide to test their big freaking death ray (compensating for something General?) by doing what?--Blowing up the planet with all the women.
Now, there is a part of me that says, hey--women gone--think of all the advantages. Then I realize that the complete lack of shoe stores selling anything not black, brown, or a sports shoe, the disappearance of the cosmetic industries animal testing, and the nagging of certain females in my life who's names I won't mention for fear of violent reprisals, may all be something we dream of--its a bit of overkill to BLOW UP THE PLANET WITH ALL THE WOMEN.
As it blows up, Obi-Wan-Kenobi says, "Its like a million voices calling out in anguish." A million? By the size of the army the guild sent to conquer Alderan in the first movie I don't think there were a million people living on the planet. Who then were these millions in anguish? I'm guessing all the human men in the galaxy, or at least those on the Death Star who just realized the nutso boss had them BLOW UP THE PLANET WITH ALL THE WOMEN ON IT.
Why did the rebellion--consisting of mostly human men--retreat to the Ice Planet of Hoth? Because the empire BLEW UP THE PLANET WITH ALL THE WOMEN ON IT. Lots of snow is useful for cooling the fevers of lonely men.
So basically the Empire was defeated not by the force, not by the rebels, but by mother nature. It was doomed the moment the BLEW UP THE PLANET WITH ALL THE WOMEN ON IT.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Have you actually taken the time to see the movies recently? This appears to be a case of Critical Research Failure, there was plenty of women in the films, mostly as extra's but they were there.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
There weren't plenty of women, really. But the Rebellion was actually led by Mon Mothma, a non-Alderaanian woman.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Mon Mothma was from Chandrila.
The "general" was Grand Moff Tarkin, a sort of warlord/governor.
You have to delve into the EU to get the backstory on the other women who appear in the movies. I do think the original trilogy is somewhat male-dominated, but Leia plays a pretty central role. On the other hand, with the exception of Mon Mothma, most of the other women in the movies are fodder, like Aunt Beru, or the slave girls in Jabba's Palace, such as Oola, who was tossed to her death.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I was going to say what Tom said about Mon Mothma. Also, the woman at the controls coordinating the evacuation from Hoth who commands the ion cannon to open fire. She seemed to be Leah's second from what I can tell.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Also, Princess Leia's real mom was from Naboo, not Alderan.
And the shape changing bounty hunter in Attack of the Clones was a woman.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Ok, Ok. I got it all wrong. [hangs head in shame]
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
Yeah, it was the Naboo who took turns being Queen. . . .
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Also, Princess Leia's real mom was from Naboo, not Alderan.
And the shape changing bounty hunter in Attack of the Clones was a woman.
She WAS a woman as the extra length dvd shows.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
I forget...Aunt Beru was Anakin's step-sister right? I seem to remember that when Anakin's mother passed away in the second movie I seem to remember she was married, and her husband had a family.
It puzzles me that it seems like everyone knew who Darth Vader was, but no one ever thought to tell Luke or Leia. I understand they wanted to protect them, but come on. Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen, as well as the Organas all knew Vader was Anakin.
Rather than beat around the bush with Luke and make up excuses, all Uncle Owen should have said was "You know that Darth Vader guy that goes around killing people and wiped out the Jedi? He's your father. That's why I don't want you to join the Empire. Oh, and you have a sister named Leia. She's pretty cute, but don't kiss her. It will create a REALLY awkward situation later. "
I have a question about the Clone Wars show on Cartoon network. Is this considered canon? The animated series was awesome (Yoda using the force to bring down a star destroyer? So cool!), but I haven't gotten around to watching the CG one.
Also, does anyone have an update on the live action Star Wars series that is supposed to be coming out? Last I heard it was a go but wouldn't be released until 2011 or 2012. Has anyone heard anything?
Posted by Sobenz (Member # 6517) on :
Regarding why they weren't told... Both children were clearing looking for adventure and excitement. Leia was all gung-ho against the Empire. Bail Organa would certainly not have possibly further endangered his daughter and/or given or reasont to take extra risks by telling her who her real father was.
Luke just wanted to be a space adventurer or something. He wanted to explore the grand space. Uncle Owen wanted, very firmly, to keep him on Tatooine to protect him. Its completely out of character of Owen Lars to have told Luke about Vader. It would have completely gone against his entire goal.
As for the other's existence, Owen probably didn't know about Leia or didn't want to give Luke further reason to go exploring space. Bail knew why they were separated and didn't want to give Leia cause to meet up with her brother (plus, he would then have to explain Vader). By the time secrecy was not needed both were dead.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
You guu-uyyyys...the OP is funny. No one needs to cry research failure.
Sheesh. Star Wars fans.
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
quote:it puzzles me that it seems like everyone knew who Darth Vader was, but no one ever thought to tell Luke or Leia. I understand they wanted to protect them, but come on. Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen, as well as the Organas all knew Vader was Anakin.
IIRC, Obi-wan left Anakin for dead in the third movie and I don't recall Obi-Wan or Yoda learning that he had taken the name Darth Vader. I could be wrong, but it seemed like they both knew he had turned to the dark side, but I don't remember anything that indicates that they knew he was still alive. I don't know, is there any indication in Episode 3 that they were hiding the kids from anyone except Palpatine?
Concerning the opening post and the expanded universe: I've often heard the original movies referred to as canonical. I think it fits nicely.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
I think it's pretty safe to say that the original series doesn't pass the Bechdel Test.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Also, does anyone have an update on the live action Star Wars series that is supposed to be coming out? Last I heard it was a go but wouldn't be released until 2011 or 2012. Has anyone heard anything?
Last I heard, scripts were being written, and some preliminary casting was underway. Their biggest obstacles were budget and technical. George Lucas said they had to try and fit $10 million worth of effects into a $1 million budget per episode, and it was more difficult than he thought it would be. But it's still a go.
The last guess was that filming might start at the end of 2010 or early 2011. I'm betting we'll get another announcement at Celebration.
I still think that this series isn't a bad idea per se, but that they would have had a home run if they had turned Stackpole's X-Wing series into a TV show. Or even better, if they'd started it, and then done Wraith Squadron. We know Americans love shows about the military, and here you have space battles, dog fights, and ground fights. And it's pretty funny. And the characters are really interesting. There's even romance here and there. Plus you have a couple of seasons pre-built in from the books and comics. Plus eventually you get Jedi from Corran Horn.
If only.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
quote:Originally posted by Epictetus:
quote:it puzzles me that it seems like everyone knew who Darth Vader was, but no one ever thought to tell Luke or Leia. I understand they wanted to protect them, but come on. Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen, as well as the Organas all knew Vader was Anakin.
IIRC, Obi-wan left Anakin for dead in the third movie and I don't recall Obi-Wan or Yoda learning that he had taken the name Darth Vader. I could be wrong, but it seemed like they both knew he had turned to the dark side, but I don't remember anything that indicates that they knew he was still alive. I don't know, is there any indication in Episode 3 that they were hiding the kids from anyone except Palpatine?
Concerning the opening post and the expanded universe: I've often heard the original movies referred to as canonical. I think it fits nicely.
Obi-Wan knew who Darth Vader was in Episode 4 for sure. After he had saved Luke from the sand people he took Luke to his home, where he told him that Darth Vader had murdered his father and hunted the rest of the jedi down. Why would he say this to Luke if he thought Anakin died on the volcano planet?
Obi-Wan knew who Darth Vader was when they had met later in the Death Star.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: You guu-uyyyys...the OP is funny. No one needs to cry research failure.
Sheesh. Star Wars fans.
You should know better than to ever bring Star Wars lore in to question.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by Epictetus: IIRC, Obi-wan left Anakin for dead in the third movie and I don't recall Obi-Wan or Yoda learning that he had taken the name Darth Vader. I could be wrong, but it seemed like they both knew he had turned to the dark side, but I don't remember anything that indicates that they knew he was still alive.
Both Obi-Wan and Yoda knew that Anakin had become Darth Vader: when they were watching the security footage of Anakin killing the kids in the Jedi Temple, Darth Sidious refers to his apprentice as "Lord Vader," who is clearly - and unhoodedly (which is the technical term... ) - Anakin.
As far as I remember, they were hiding the twins from Darth Sidious, though I imagine it didn't take too long for news of Vader's survival to permeate even out to the Outer Rim.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Dude, how could someone who's screen name is based on Star Wars not know that Alderaan and Naboo are two different planets? I think the only Alderaanians we ever see in the movies are Leia and her "father" Bail Organa.
And yes, Obi-wan and Yoda knew who Vader was from the time they saw his handiwork in the Temple. Presumably Obi-wan told Owen, Beru, and Bail Organa. None of them knew that Vader survived his injuries on Mustafar until a little while later. Obi-wan didn't go there to leave him badly injured and very pissed off. He thought he had left him to die. I'm just not sure why he left him to die slowly in agony rather than swiftly putting him out of his misery.
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
Fair enough. I remember now that Obi-Wan mentions Darth Vader before they even meet on the Death Star. My Star Wars trivia days date from a time before the prequels, at which point I kind of stopped paying attention. I was basing my opinion on the NPR Star Wars radio drama in which Obi-Wan doesn't realize Vader is still alive until they land on the Death Star and he feels his presence.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Dude, how could someone who's screen name is based on Star Wars not know that Alderaan and Naboo are two different planets? I think the only Alderaanians we ever see in the movies are Leia and her "father" Bail Organa
Tycho Celchu is seen in the movies, he was a pilot from Alderaan. The captain of the Tantive IV, Captain Antilles, is the guy we see Vader strangling to death in the opening scene of A New Hope. If you count the prequels, then you have Bail Organa. I'm sure there are more, but names don't come to mind.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Not to belabor the issues taken with the Opening Post, but the Episode One nonsense about the "midichlorians" being responsible for all Jedi powers means that the Jedi powers could only be transferred by women, since midichlorians obviously are similar to, if not the same thing as, mitichondria, which are not part of the genetic exchange, but come from the cellular cytoplasm of the mother. In other words, all the Jedi came from a Jedi "Eve." Who knows how Yoda got in there!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Where did you get that nonsense idea from?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Lyrhawn, If you disagree with my take on the midichlorians, then please explain how midichlorians became so "concentrated" in Anakin's cellular makeup. All you have to do is use a little logic, and a knowledge of how genetic exchange works. You do remember Obi Wan Kenobe's discussion with the members of the Jedi Council of how midichlorians were more concentrated in Anakin than had ever been seen before, don't you?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I disagree with what you're saying because other than the similar sounding names there's nothing to support the notion that midichlorians are anything like mitochondia. Not to mention the fact that Luke and Leia clearly inherited their Force sensitivity from their father, not their mother. And what does Anakin's midi count have to do with anything?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I remember the discussion, I have no idea why you think that automatically means it's female dominant, or why you think it has anything at all to do with mitochondria. First of all, midichlorians are in ALL living beings. Are you suggesting that every creature in existence in the Star Wars universe in every race, animal, plant or anything else, all have mitochondrial DNA, and pass their lineage on through the female line?
I would say that your theory only makes sense if you consider only human biology but it doesn't even make sense then.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Yes, Lyrhawn, mitochondrial DNA can only be passed through the female line. Mitochondria are not transferred genetically, they are transferred by being in the cytoplasm of the female's egg cell.
Whatever midichlorians are, they could not be transmitted genetically. Genes contain DNA. That only leaves the female egg cytoplasm.
Don't you hate it when the fantasy part of science fiction becomes too dumb for words? Let's just face it--George Lucas blew it with this one.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Yeah, it sucks when we have to rely on mere humans to provide our perfect fake-universe scenarios.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It's entirely possible that midichlorians are not in fact mitochrondrial in nature. *laugh*
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Let's just face it--George Lucas blew it with this one.
This part I agree with.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I don't get why people hate the midis so much. For one, it was already established that there is a biological/genetic basis for Force power in the original trilogy. As Luke said, the Force is strong in his family. Second, midis were necessary to explain why Anakin is special and how he was conceived. Many fans seem to misunderstand and think that Lucas is saying that the midis are the Force or that they create it, thus diminishing the mysticism. But that's not how they are described in TPM.
And I'm still not getting why one should assume that they are inherited like mitochondrial DNA, especially since as I said above Luke and Leia inherited Force powers from their FATHER.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Dude, Ron, if you just look up midichlorians on the internet you can find out in about five minutes that they have nothing to do with mitochondria.
They also don't have to follow any genetic rules anyway because they're a fantasy symbiote written into a plot by a bad writer.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
like seriously look at this:
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: All you have to do is use a little logic, and a knowledge of how genetic exchange works.
Okay; used a little logic; concluded that midichlorians, as a fictional magical plot device in a fantasy sci-fi world, have no requirement to adhere to non-fictional genetic exchange.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Science fiction must not break the cardinal rule that it must never violate known science. Otherwise it is not science fiction. Violating known science negates suspension of disbelief. You might as well invoke magic--and not in the sense of Clarke's Third Law, either. The only real way I can enjoy Star Wars is to ignore George Lucas' whole prattle about midichlorians and pretend he never said it. If you take it seriously as part of the story, IT DOES NOT WORK!
By the way, I would not say that George Lucas is a bad writer. His plots, characters, and imagination, are very good. He is just woefully weak on his science at times.
If midichlorians exist, then it is inescapable that there must have been a Jedi Eve!
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Your cardinal rule is not actually a cardinal rule, nor do the 'midichlorians' violate any known science involving mitochondria, because they have nothing to do with mitochondria. You just assumed so.
quote:By the way, I would not say that George Lucas is a bad writer. His plots, characters, and imagination, are very good.
He's a horrible writer, and the prequel movies were garbage.
Go ahead and skip to 6:20 in that clip if you don't want to watch the whole thing. (there is ADULT LANGUAGE FOR ADULTS)
[ June 24, 2010, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Samprimary ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I actually agree with Ron that his plots, characters, and imagination are very good. He's fantastic at coming up with great stories. He's awful at dialogue and not good at executing them on the screen. I think he's much better off handing off his excellent ideas to a better screen writer and then signing off on an acceptable compromise.
I don't think the prequels are awful. I think the bad attention they get is extremely melodramatic. I don't think they're exceptionally awesome, but I like much of the underlying story, and there's a lot of great space adventure fun in them. With the exception of a couple truly awful pieces of dialogue, I thought Ep III was excellent. With the exception of Jar Jar, I thought Ep I was really good and a lot of fun.
Ron, I still have no idea why you're so devoted to midichlorians being attached to mitochondria, and you don't appear willing to listen to anyone else on this.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Lyr, have you watched the link Samp provided? I didn't think the prequels were so bad, but after watching that and seeing how truly mindless and un-thought-out it was, I can't stand them.
In fact, he did the same thing for First Contact. As a ST fanboy, I still love that movie. But it's full of character inconsistencies and just stupid decisions it hurts to think about it.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:I actually agree with Ron that his plots, characters, and imagination are very good. He's fantastic at coming up with great stories
Even if you are a 'oh just shut your brain off and enjoy the movies' type and enjoyed the movies, it's amply demonstrated that the writing was bad! the movies are hallmarks and perfect demonstrations of Lucas being a bad writer. He's bad! His writing is bad!
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Lyr, What would you say that the story of the prequels was? I honestly didn't see much of a story at all.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Science fiction must not break the cardinal rule that it must never violate known science. Otherwise it is not science fiction. Violating known science negates suspension of disbelief. You might as well invoke magic--and not in the sense of Clarke's Third Law, either. The only real way I can enjoy Star Wars is to ignore George Lucas' whole prattle about midichlorians and pretend he never said it. If you take it seriously as part of the story, IT DOES NOT WORK!
By the way, I would not say that George Lucas is a bad writer. His plots, characters, and imagination, are very good. He is just woefully weak on his science at times.
If midichlorians exist, then it is inescapable that there must have been a Jedi Eve!
You're still not answering the question of why midichlorians have to follow the same rules as mitochondria. There are other organelles, you know. Would we be having this discussion if Lucas had arbitrarily named them ribosomians?
You're also missing another very important fact... Star Wars is science fantasy. It always has been. It's knights, and wizards, and princesses in space. It's never, ever, tried to be scientifically credible.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm not sure if I want to look at Samp's links, at least, especially not for First Contact. I'm satisfied with my present views.
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Lyr, What would you say that the story of the prequels was? I honestly didn't see much of a story at all.
I'd say there were two stories. There's Anakin Skywalker being manipulated into turning towards the dark side. He has mommy issues, feelings of guilt, ironically, feelings of powerlessness despite being an extremely powerful being, and his quest for power is what erodes his morality.
The larger story is macroscopic, it's how Palpatine, as his Sith alter-ego, created a foil to manipulate the Republic into voluntarily handing over power to a mad dictator without knowing it, and then used his democratically elected authority to defeat his initial puppet. Once that was done, he used the OTHER puppet army, that was literally genetically designed to obey his commands to knock out the one real threat to his power. Then he consolidated and ruled the galaxy for a couple decades.
You might not have liked the story because of dialogue land mines and stuff like Jar Jar, and I'm not saying Lucas is Shakespeare or anything, but there is clearly a story. The original trilogy had a story. All three Indiana Jones movies had a story. It was pulp fiction, not high art, but that's fine.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Lyrhawn, the redlettermedia critiques are not just about the dialogue and writing. Oh, how I wish they were.
I urge you, watch a bit of the review. Specifically:
No, I think we may have different ideas of what constitutes a story. To me, it's not being told that some things happened, but rather a coherent narrative. To me, the prequels had plot points and they had "cool" or "funny" action sequences and everything else was only there to get us to those things but did not have to make sense in and of themselves.
Consider, for example, the absolute idiocy of what led up to the pod race in TPM. There was absolutely no need for any of that. It made no sense from a character perspective, a story perspective, or something that any reasonable person would do. It was only there so that we could get to pod race.
Speaking of absurd, the trade federation invasion force lands on the opposite side of Naboo from the capital city, which seemed like their only target. Why? The only explanation is that we needed the two jedi to meet with the Gungans, steal a transport from them, and then travel through the core of the planet because it's "cool" to do it that way.
Again, from TPM, Palapatine set up this "plot" that had at it's crowning moment, Amidala calling for a vote of no confidence in the senate. Great, except that her getting there to do so was an undertaking of heroic proportions, opposed at every step of the way by both the Trade federation patsies and Darth Maul, who were both taking direct orders from him.
The movies constantly fail in these ways to tell anything like a coherent narrative. I can't think of a single plot point that isn't prey to at least one of these things.
And that's leaving aside the god awful mess you got from them trying to cram largely unconnected and emotionally and thematically incongruous sequences together. Again, just drawing from TPM, the ending sequence has four separate threads going on, the Darth Maul fight (sad) with the palace recapture (tense) and the absurd Gungan/droid fight (slapstick comedy) and the appalling bad Anakin randomly pressing buttons saves the day (?). This is like the worst way you could attempt to tell a story. I have no doubt that it is studied in film schools for the sheer enormity of its compounded crimes against narrative storytelling.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
And you know, why didn't Gandalf just have Gwaihir fly Frodo to Orodruin at the start, rather than having them actually go on that stupid, useless quest, where lots of people died unnecessarily?
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Incidentally, looking at Red Letter Media...
His Star Trek: First Contact review speaks of the movie as though it's bad. It isn't! I thought it was the best of the Next Generation movies, and a fun movie to begin with. It's not perfect or "great", but it's pretty fun!
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: And you know, why didn't Gandalf just have Gwaihir fly Frodo to Orodruin at the start, rather than having them actually go on that stupid, useless quest, where lots of people died unnecessarily?
I think a better example would be the numerous plot holes in the Harry Potter books. There are tons of times in these books where they establish some piece of magic that later would almost effortless solve the problem that people are having. However, despite giving readers an opportunity to snigger a little bit about these things, ultimately the HP books have an often very well told coherent narrative.
Why that is is actually a pretty interesting question that I haven't given much thought to. My initial thoughts are that they're pretty obviously the author forgetting things or are in service of the story.
I don't see this in, for example, the setup for the pod race. Would you consider the pod race or the elements that led up to it integral to the story? To me, they seem obviously a case where they wanted to do a wicked cool pod race and weren't going to let anything like the principles of storytelling get in their way.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I think maybe I'm doing something wrong here. Lyr, you obviously really enjoy the Star Wars prequels. I don't want to take that away from you.
I was just trying to show that there are some well established reasons why people say that the Star Wars prequels represent horrible story telling. I didn't finish the Red Letter stuff that Samp posted because, man, that's long, but it looks like he hit a lot of the thing I've seen as well.
I think the choice to not look at this stuff because it might cause you to dislike things that you take happiness from now may be a good one, so I think I'll bow out.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I agree 100% that the pod race was absolutely unnecessary and very much a really cool thing that Lucas wanted an excuse to shoe horn into the movie. I actually didn't even care for the pod race, but then, I didn't much like young Anakin at all anyway. His age was one of my biggest problems with TPM.
I think the story is still there, even if a lot of the elements that get us from Point A to Point B in actually telling the story aren't particularly well put together. I think people tend to especially overanalyze the prequels is because they loved the originals and felt uber-disappointed by something that didn't live up (and I agree that they didn't really live up to it either, with the possible exception of EP III, which I will actually defend as being a pretty good Star Wars movie). I know a lot of the arguments, I've made some of them myself, but in this case, I just don't care. I can still watch it, enjoy it, laugh at some of the cringe-inducing moments and then forget them five seconds later. My person view is that Star Wars was never really intended to be excellent cinema. It has always been a space romp, with cheesy dialogue, cheesy hair styles, cheesy clothes, and in some cases, some pretty silly actions that don't make a lot of sense (read: thermal exhaust port that blows up the entire Death Star). If I went into it with the same sort of expectations that I take with me to one of my English lit classes, I'm sure I'd be disappointed, but this wasn't designed for that, so why would I apply a set of standards it was clearly not made to meet, and that will likely ruin my enjoyment of it?
The prequels aren't his best work, nor was the ending of the last Indiana Jones movie. But by and large, his movies are wildly successful, he's like the tenth richest man in Hollywood, and that's AFTER his wife got half in the divorce. Clearly he creates stories that people enjoy and that resonate with people.
PS. I'm not saying this to be argumentative, just to sort of explain my own personal philosophy when it comes to Lucas and the prequels in general. And also, thanks Squick, that last post was a nice gesture. Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Lyrhawn, your position is kind of muting itself. We've gone from
1. He's a good writer
to
2. There's a story
to
3. Okay it's not his best work but he is financially successful
.. this is getting there. The Transformers series is a huge box office success. The writing is garbage. The plot is stupid. The director is horrible.
I'm not saying you should be unable to enjoy the movies! I had an enjoyable enough time at III (though I could absolutely not enjoy I and II).
My point is that the idea that George Lucas is a good writer is wrong. He is a bad writer, and all three of the prequel movies are, essentially, terribly written. We are stuck at an odd impasse because you wish to continue to make the case that there's still a good story while purposely keeping yourself from confronting the data that shows otherwise -- a sort of an Ignorance is Bliss approach -- but, if you wish to keep an honest dialogue over the quality of George Lucas as a writer, then, I think you need to watch my creepy incompetent serial murderer friend talk about the Star Wars prequel.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: Incidentally, looking at Red Letter Media...
His Star Trek: First Contact review speaks of the movie as though it's bad. It isn't! I thought it was the best of the Next Generation movies, and a fun movie to begin with. It's not perfect or "great", but it's pretty fun!
He starts the review by timidly admitting it's not all that bad, but here's why HE hates it (it stars Movie Picard)
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
Redlettermedia should be required watching for anyone who does not understand why the prequel was an abomination.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Lyrhawn, your position is kind of muting itself. We've gone from
1. He's a good writer
to
2. There's a story
to
3. Okay it's not his best work but he is financially successful
.. this is getting there. The Transformers series is a huge box office success. The writing is garbage. The plot is stupid. The director is horrible.
I'm not saying you should be unable to enjoy the movies! I had an enjoyable enough time at III (though I could absolutely not enjoy I and II).
My point is that the idea that George Lucas is a good writer is wrong. He is a bad writer, and all three of the prequel movies are, essentially, terribly written. We are stuck at an odd impasse because you wish to continue to make the case that there's still a good story while purposely keeping yourself from confronting the data that shows otherwise -- a sort of an Ignorance is Bliss approach -- but, if you wish to keep an honest dialogue over the quality of George Lucas as a writer, then, I think you need to watch my creepy incompetent serial murderer friend talk about the Star Wars prequel.
I don't think I ever said he was a good writer. In fact, I've said numerous times that he is absolutely awful at writing dialogue, at the very least.
I think he's great at coming up with stories and concepts. I think he would be much better off churning out ideas that other people write the scripts for. If I didn't say that part specifically in this thread, I know I've said it in others.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Just a quick note to neo-dragon. I did indeed answer "the question of why midichlorians have to follow the same rules as mitochondria." As I pointed out, genetic transfer only transfers the DNA. Anything else, whether mitochondria or anything else, could only be passed on because it was in the cytoplasm of the female's egg cell. I cited mitochondria as a familiar example--an obvious one, since George Lucas probably had this in the back of his mind when he made up the ludicrous midichlorians. Anyone who wishes to dispute this has to come up with another way for midichlorians--whatever they are--to become concentrated in the cells of someone like Anikin. Unless they fall like cosmic rays striking the fertilized zygote from outside. (Never mind then how they would become more concentrated in one individual than in another.) But no one has suggested that.
So if midichlorians are the cause of the "force" being stronger in some people than in others, this HAS to mean that the ability to be "strong in the force" could only be transferred through females, and there must have been a "Jedi Eve."
I see now why some of you do not get the stunningly overwhelming argument against evolution that I have presented in the past concerning the genetic impossibility of randam mutation or any other natural processes EVER resulting in one species developing into another more advanced and complex species. One lunatic even asserted that the human genome is "really not all that complex." You basically do not understand genetics. You must have slept through discussions of Gregor Mendel in biology class. All of which serves to underscore the basic fact that evolution theory is bad science.
[ June 27, 2010, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Anyone who wishes to dispute this has to come up with another way for midichlorians--whatever they are--to become concentrated in the cells of someone like Anikin.
Midichlorians are tiny, space-dwelling bacteria who live on the Force, and will seek out -- from across the galaxy -- and dwell inside strong Force users. Done!
-------------
quote:You basically do not understand genetics.
Heh. Ron, I solemnly guarantee you that I know more about genetics than you do. Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Just a quick note to neo-dragon. I did indeed answer "the question of why midichlorians have to follow the same rules as mitochondria." As I pointed out, genetic transfer only transfers the DNA. Anything else, whether mitochondria or anything else, could only be passed on because it was in the cytoplasm of the female's egg cell. I cited mitochondria as a familiar example--an obvious one, since George Lucas probably had this in the back of his mind when he made up the ludicrous midichlorians. Anyone who wishes to dispute this has to come up with another way for midichlorians--whatever they are--to become concentrated in the cells of someone like Anikin. Unless they fall like cosmic rays striking the fertilized zygote from outside. (Never mind then how they would become more concentrated in one individual than in another.) But no one has suggested that.
So if midichlorians are the cause of the "force" being stronger in some people than in others, this HAS to mean that the ability to be "strong in the force" could only be transferred through females, and there must have been a "Jedi Eve."
I see now why some of you do not get the stunningly overwhelming argument against evolution that I have presented in the past concerning the genetic impossibility of randam mutation or any other natural processes EVER resulting in one species developing into another more advanced and complex species. One lunatic even asserted that the human genome is "really not all that complex." You basically do not understand genetics. You must have slept through discussions of Gregor Mendel in biology class. All of which serves to underscore the basic fact that evolution theory is bad science.
I don't think you realize that midiclorians are fiction from a fictional galaxy that is not only far away but also far into our past, and thus alien and if they're alien then they probaby evolved in whatever fictional way that makes sense in an internally consistent way with the Star Wars Mythos.
Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who etc all have horrible science whenever science is used its always barely disguised technobabble for the sake of moving the plot and story.
Thus they are whatever word of god says they are, if Lucus says there isn't a Jedi Eve then there isn't one, no matter how much you try with your pseudo science to try to justify it.
(JBlade edit. Sorry Blayne, don't resort to personal attacks please.)
[ June 28, 2010, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: JanitorBlade ]
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
My interpretation was that midichorians don't "live in the Force," they just feed off it, so they'll reproduce a lot faster in an individual who is strong in the Force."
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
If you look up midichlorians on the star wars wiki, they have multiple sources showing how midichlorians are isomorphic, sentient, symbiotic life forms that exist absolutely everywhere there is life and are in fact required for life to exist.
And that they are not passed on in a manner similar to or like mitochondria.
Like seriously. Hey Ron! even if we had no data on how midichlorians work (f****** midiclorians, how do they work? - Insane Clown Posse) we would be right about how there is no supposed requirement that they work like mitochondria. ON TOP OF THAT we have official canonized information stating that they work very differently from mitochondria, so you are wrong to a level not before conceived.
Even on issues as trivial as whether or not Lucas's stupid little microscopic fairies transmit between living organisms, is it possible for you to admit being wrong? I'm just curious!
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Just a quick note to neo-dragon. I did indeed answer "the question of why midichlorians have to follow the same rules as mitochondria." As I pointed out, genetic transfer only transfers the DNA. Anything else, whether mitochondria or anything else, could only be passed on because it was in the cytoplasm of the female's egg cell. I cited mitochondria as a familiar example--an obvious one, since George Lucas probably had this in the back of his mind when he made up the ludicrous midichlorians. Anyone who wishes to dispute this has to come up with another way for midichlorians--whatever they are--to become concentrated in the cells of someone like Anikin.
Midi-chlorians were intelligent[2] microscopic life-forms that served as organelles within all living cells, existing in a symbiotic relationship with the beings they inhabited[1][3] and comprising a collective consciousness amongst themselves.[2] Present in all life,[1] midi-chlorians were isomorphic on every world that supported life.[3] Midi-chlorians, in fact, were necessary for life to exist.
Sounds pretty identical to mitochondria. Or, wait. Not.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
So, Tom, you are saying that being strong in the force is the result of something like catching a cosmic cold. Sounds as good as any of the illogical pseudo-science masquerading as science fiction in the Lucas universe. However, when did Luke catch his father's cold, since Anakin never even saw his son or knew he had been born? Never mind. Like I said, I prefer to ignore all of Lucas' discussions of midichlorians. It improves the story to pretend he never said any of that. I am amazed at the persistence of some Lucas fans in trying to make sense out of the senseless.
Sam, I do not have to admit I was wrong when I was not. And Blayne, your pompous and insulting remarks have no weight as logical arguments--nor do your attempts to falsely describe history or wrongly describe my arguments have any weight. You are really saying nothing, just making loud, rude noises. This has always characterized your immature kind of debate techniques. You must feel very frustrated that you have never been able to factually, logically refute any of my arguments, EVER.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:So, Tom, you are saying that being strong in the force is the result of something like catching a cosmic cold.
Well, no. I'm saying that being strong in the Force might be completely unrelated to the midichlorians in your blood, except insofar as midichlorians might be attracted to strong Force users and thus might serve as indicators of strong Force ability.
quote:You must feel very frustrated that you have never been able to factually, logically refute any of my arguments, EVER.
Who would you say on this board has factually and logically refuted any of your arguments?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Tom, a few would claim they have tried, but none have succeeded. Of course, if you ask THEM, they will lie about it. They seem to care more about scoring self-awarded points in debate, than in finding out real truth. I am not talking about midichlorians, which of course is a trivial topic to begin with.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Hee. Oh, Ron, I could hug you.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: So, Tom, you are saying that being strong in the force is the result of something like catching a cosmic cold. Sounds as good as any of the illogical pseudo-science masquerading as science fiction in the Lucas universe. However, when did Luke catch his father's cold, since Anakin never even saw his son or knew he had been born? Never mind. Like I said, I prefer to ignore all of Lucas' discussions of midichlorians. It improves the story to pretend he never said any of that. I am amazed at the persistence of some Lucas fans in trying to make sense out of the senseless.
Sam, I do not have to admit I was wrong when I was not. And Blayne, your pompous and insulting remarks have no weight as logical arguments--nor do your attempts to falsely describe history or wrongly describe my arguments have any weight. You are really saying nothing, just making loud, rude noises. This has always characterized your immature kind of debate techniques. You must feel very frustrated that you have never been able to factually, logically refute any of my arguments, EVER.
If this was the case then you wouldn't have responded, that you have responded proves that I stuck a nerve, that your arguments are false, you by your own faith are bearing false witness and have thus sinned, but for as long as you've convinced yourself and rationalized away the inherent flaws with your argument as being for the best who cares right?
Certainly not your false god.
Posted by JanitorBlade (Member # 12343) on :
Blayne: Just as the religious agree not to proselyte here, those who do not believe in a religion are asked to not disparage other people's religious convictions. You are dancing around that line, please stop.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Ron.
This:
quote:Anything else, whether mitochondria or anything else, could only be passed on because it was in the cytoplasm of the female's egg cell.
Does not equal this:
quote:Midi-chlorians were intelligent[2] microscopic life-forms that served as organelles within all living cells, existing in a symbiotic relationship with the beings they inhabited[1][3] and comprising a collective consciousness amongst themselves.[2] Present in all life,[1] midi-chlorians were isomorphic on every world that supported life.
See?
Ron! You said this!
quote: the Jedi powers could only be transferred by women, since midichlorians obviously are similar to, if not the same thing as, mitichondria
The statement is clearly not true! All the data is staring you in the face! You can look at it on wookiepedia! It is even cited! With references! You were wrong!
The only question remaining is if this is something you can admit!
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Sam, this is getting beyond silly. But about this statement you quoted: "organelles within all living cells, existing in a symbiotic relationship with the beings they inhabited"
What does that mean, if not that it is SOMETHING within the CYTOPLASM of the cell? Nothing in the cytoplasm of males can be transmitted to offspring. Offspring can only get what is in the cytoplasm of the female, because that is the egg cell (fertilized zygote) inwhich they grow. All they get from the male is genetic DNA. No "organelles within all living cells" can be transmitted from the male.
How could I make this any clearer?
Wookiepedia obviously is not an authority on scientific correctness.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Um, it is when we're talking about fake science specific to the Star Wars universe.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Sam, this is getting beyond silly.
Yes! And for reasons you are ironically unaware of.
quote:What does that mean, if not that it is SOMETHING within the CYTOPLASM of the cell? Nothing in the cytoplasm of males can be transmitted to offspring. Offspring can only get what is in the cytoplasm of the female, because that is the egg cell (fertilized zygote) inwhich they grow. All they get from the male is genetic DNA. No "organelles within all living cells" can be transmitted from the male.
What it means is that as an independently sentient entity that exists within all living cells, it does not have to follow the prescribed methodology within any given organism (Example given: human beings in real life) to propagate itself to the offspring of that life.
There's also specific counterevidence to your claim.
1. There are a number of species in the star wars universe that reproduce asexually or otherwise do not possess a 'female' gender. None of them have matrilineal descent of force sensitivity or lucas's magical force midichlorian fairies, so the statement 'the jedi powers could only be transferred by women' is as false as "midiclorians obviously are similar to, if not the same thing as, mitichondria(sp)"
2. Midichlorians can actually independently generate life, and therefore can impart force sensitivity to beings that are descended from nothing. This is different from 'could only be transferred by women.'
3. "Nothing in the cytoplasm of males can be transmitted to offspring." does not account for fantasy fairy molecules which transmit magicalness to fantasy people in a fantasy alien world dreamed up as fiction. There is no rule that says that force sensitivity cannot be transferred by male lineage, since 'occupation of the cytoplasm of the cell (in species that even have cytoplasms)' is not the required mode of transmission for a fairy fantasy cell that can transmit however it wants, from psychosomatic transmission to general clustering via all organic material to sperm transmission to clicking their heels three times.
etcetera.
quote:How could I make this any clearer?
Clarity is not at issue. you have presented your wrong position very clearly. It is very wrong.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Wookiepedia obviously is not an authority on scientific correctness.
And midichlorians, being a thing which does not exist, is not a scientifically correct object that is required to follow a scientifically correct method of transmission!
And you are obviously not an authority on how midichlorians transmit force sensitivity between beings!
Whee!
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I can accept FTL drives in science fiction. I can accept antigravity in science fiction. I can accept teleportation in science fiction. Those things all hypothesize physically valid science yet to be discovered, and typically appeal to higher dimensions and esoteric consequences of quantum physics.
But reproduction, whether sexually or asexually, is well understood and established science. Science fiction cannot contradict well understood and established science, without hypothesizing some physically valid advanced science that provides reasonable exceptions. All discussions of midichlorians are fairy tales, incompatible with science by any stretch. It is not even good fantasy, because it could not work in any world, even a fantasy world. It is not self-consistent.
Sometimes I have been able to sense a future event or choice. I once called a coin-toss correctly 22 times in a row--and I felt sure of what I was calling, except for the last time, when the coin bounced out of the tosser's hand and fell onto the floor. But I do not know how I was able to do it. To the best of my knowledge, I possess no midichlorians. (Nor do they possess me.)
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
The Force is not reproduction. The Force is magic, and it works however it wants.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
OK Raymond. Then Star Wars is not science fiction at all, and should have dispensed with the starships and spacesuits and blasters. And droids.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Star Wars is not science fiction, really. I don't think anyone would dispute that. It's space opera.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Two answers: one, Tom is right, Star Wars is really a fantasy story that substitutes magic that looks like medieval Europe with magic that looks like high technology. Two, there is absolutely no reason that the Force couldn't work using a "legitimate" fake science that worked similar to real science, but which nonetheless had nothing to do with mitochondria.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Luke asserted a family connection to the Force in RotJ. And it was implied in RotS that Darth Plagius (or however you say his name) was Anakin's father; and Palpatine asserted that Plagius was one of the most powerful Sith of all time.
Assuming that is true, that's not a terrible argument that power in the Force is hereditary.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
But it is a terrible argument that they are passed down through mothers.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Third: Science fiction does not at all necessarily have to follow the rules that Ron Lambert has invented for it.
Fourth: Even biologically there is no canon that shows that midichlorians operate like mitochondria
Fifth: The canon that exists says that they operate instead as isomorphic sentient beings that attach themselves to living matter of any sort, so you could even 'contract' them through eating or drinking or breathing or ANYTHING
so, I'm right, but now Ron's moved on to talking irrelevantly about how he's convinced he's psychic. Or something. This is ridiculous, but fun.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: but now Ron's moved on to talking irrelevantly about how he's convinced he's psychic. Or something. This is ridiculous, but fun.
It's now safely in the realm of the absurd.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
You wouldn't say that if it had happened to you.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
No, unless I were a fantasy prone personality inclined suggestably towards magical thinking, I would note to myself that winning the lottery has a lower probability than the odds of coin toss prediction, and I wouldn't think myself magical or psychic just for winning the lottery.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
) - Anakin.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)