This is topic Teaser Trailer for HBO's "Game of Thrones" in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
New Image, Teaser Trailer, and Behind-the-Scenes Featurette for HBO’s Game of Thrones

I can't see it from here, but I figured some of you may be interested.
 

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Posted by Ryoko (Member # 4947) on :
 
Thank you for this.

Looks like HBO will have me hooked for another year.


 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Anybody know at what speed this show is supposed to go? How long until the TV show has caught up to the novels?
 

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Posted by Ryoko (Member # 4947) on :
 
That is a great question. Of course, I'm sure a big factor will be the aging of the child actors.
 

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Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
 
One book per season was my understanding.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Well, that won't last long, then.
 

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Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
 
It could run for four seasons now. And that gives Mr. Martin four more years to finish the next book. It could happen.

At five seasons, it could outlast the Tudors.
 

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Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
 
They could probably split A Storm of Swords into a couple of seasons if they needed to wait for Martin. Possibly A Clash of Kings as well. Buy a little bit of time. Maybe he can give them his outlines for the rest of the series and they can just finish it up for him.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I've got the first three books gathering dust on my shelves. They're a bit big to tackle while I'm in class, and I tackled Dune over the summer instead.

You guys will have to review the show when it comes out to let the rest of us know if it's worth watching.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
and I tackled Dune over the summer instead.

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Hey, me too!
 

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Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
 
When does it start - and what's the best way to get it if some of us nontechnical people don't have a TV?
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
and I tackled Dune over the summer instead.

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Hey, me too!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lyrhawn:

quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
and I tackled Dune over the summer instead.

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Hey, me too!

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What'd you think of it?

I really, really liked Dune. Dune Messiah felt like filler, and then I liked Children of Dune a little more than Messiah. I haven't gotten to the fourth one yet, but it too is sitting on a shelf.

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Oh, I only had time to nearly finish the first book, "Dune." I like it a lot, but I'm not sure if I'll go read the sequels.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
*shakes head sadly*
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
So I started reading "Game of Thrones" the night after reading this thread.

It's amazing! I tinkered with the first few pages a couple months ago but it didn't grab me. This time I read a couple hundred pages in a sitting and it totally sucked me in. What an emotional roller coaster. I've felt excited, sad, trepidation, vindication, and a million other things. At first I was leery of tackling such a long series, and now I'm thrilled there's so much more to read before the end!
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
If he ever bothers to write the damn ending, that is......I hate waiting for the last few books.


I almost wish I had not read them at this point. He will probably died before finishing them, and that will really suck.

Maybe Brandon Sanderson will be free to finish it off by then.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
*shakes head sadly*

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kwea:
If he ever bothers to write the damn ending, that is......I hate waiting for the last few books.


I almost wish I had not read them at this point. He will probably died before finishing them, and that will really suck.

Maybe Brandon Sanderson will be free to finish it off by then.

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This is totally word of mouth so it could be a complete fabrication, BUT...

I heard that, unlike Jordan, he has asked (put in his will? Not sure. Like I said, heard it through a grapevine) that if he dies before ASoIaF is complete, his notes be destroyed and no one be allowed to finish the series. Makes me a little sad, if it's true.

Although ever since I read an interview where Martin talks about how uncomfortable it makes him feel when fans send him letters expressing their fear he may die before he finishes, I've tried to keep from speculating on it.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
It's possible that he's afraid that someone might kill him just to get Daniel Abraham to finish the series faster.
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
I've never read Abraham. Is that a sterling endorsement of him? Or just an inside joke? If you actually think he's good enough to pick up Martin's series I'd better go buy one of the guy's books.

I've always liked Neil Gaiman's take on Martin's slow pace of writing.
 

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Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
 
I think Abraham is good friends with Martin, maybe collaborated in the past with Wild Card (?). Abraham's work is pretty good. I thought fairly unique, good world building, interesting characters. I didn't think the style of writing was all that similar between the two, but it has been a bit since I have read them and I never read them together.

Anything published by Abraham since Long Price Quartet?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Dan: it's a bit of an inside joke; Abraham is part of a writer's circle that includes Martin, and the two have worked together fairly often. But if you haven't read Abraham, you're seriously missing out. He's probably one of the best people working in the genre right now, and certainly capable of being merciless to his characters. I have no doubt that Abraham has the chops to finish ASoIaF, if provided with Martin's plot outlines.

Scholarette: You should definitely read the book he co-wrote with Martin, Hunter's Run. (And, in that vein, let's just say that there's a book coming out under a pseudonym that I'll be recommending very highly in a few months. )
 

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Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kwea:

Maybe Brandon Sanderson will be free to finish it off by then.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Dan: it's a bit of an inside joke; Abraham is part of a writer's circle that includes Martin, and the two have worked together fairly often. But if you haven't read Abraham, you're seriously missing out. He's probably one of the best people working in the genre right now, and certainly capable of being merciless to his characters. I have no doubt that Abraham has the chops to finish ASoIaF, if provided with Martin's plot outlines.

Scholarette: You should definitely read the book he co-wrote with Martin, Hunter's Run. (And, in that vein, let's just say that there's a book coming out under a pseudonym that I'll be recommending very highly in a few months. )

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Gotcha. I'll look into his work, then.

quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
I absolutely loved the ending to the Mistborn series.

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I agree wholeheartedly. I thought the ending was darn near perfect.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I just finished "Game of Thrones" and will be starting "A Clash of Kings" in a moment.

I'd love to know, what was everyone's favorite part of Game of Thrones, and what was their most gut-wrenching least favorite part? (by that I mean, not the part you hated, but the part that actually upset you because of your emotional attachment to the characters).

I'm hesitant to go looking for Song of Ice and Fire threads on Hatrack only because I don't want to be spoiled about anything that happens in the later books. I was absolutely shocked at how emotionally invested I was in the characters throughout the book, especially during moments of tragedy. I'm wondering how attached others were when they first read it.

I find I'm only somewhat annoyed, periodically, at the pace of the book. It's not so much that things move slowly, I love that there are half a dozen different plot threads moving simultaneously. I just hate it when only one or two characters know a vitally important fact, and then that fact never gets revealed to the others.

Anyway, please share.
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I just finished "Game of Thrones" and will be starting "A Clash of Kings" in a moment.

I'd love to know, what was everyone's favorite part of Game of Thrones, and what was their most gut-wrenching least favorite part? (by that I mean, not the part you hated, but the part that actually upset you because of your emotional attachment to the characters).

I'm hesitant to go looking for Song of Ice and Fire threads on Hatrack only because I don't want to be spoiled about anything that happens in the later books. I was absolutely shocked at how emotionally invested I was in the characters throughout the book, especially during moments of tragedy. I'm wondering how attached others were when they first read it.

I find I'm only somewhat annoyed, periodically, at the pace of the book. It's not so much that things move slowly, I love that there are half a dozen different plot threads moving simultaneously. I just hate it when only one or two characters know a vitally important fact, and then that fact never gets revealed to the others.

Anyway, please share.

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First of all, I know what you mean about the vitally important facts unrevealed to people that should know. So tantalizingly frustrating!

Second of all, SPOILERS FOR A GAME OF THRONES! Okay? If you somehow haven't read it yet, for pete's sake STOP HERE!

Most gut-wrenching: For me it was, predictably, Ned's death. I loved Ned. I thought of him as the closest thing to a true protagonist in the book. I absolutely love tired old guys as protagonists. It was hard to believe he was really dead. When Sansa is presented with his head... I could see it with her, and it made me sick. I still have a hard time reading that area of the book, and I've read it several times.

Favorite is much, much harder to pin down. So many great parts to choose from. I think I'm going to think about it for a while.

How about you, Lyrhawn?
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
SPOILERS FOR ME AS WELL

I thought for sure he was dead when his power play against Cersei failed. When I found out he really wasn't I was ecstatic, and then to have him killed again ripped my heart out. It came in two parts for me though. For the first half of the book, my biggest gut-wrencher was Bran being pushed out of the window by Jaime. It was ridiculously sad. I'm still crossing my fingers that somehow he gets his legs back.

I think perhaps the only thing more sad than Ned being killed (with his own sword!) was finding out that it was Sansa that told Cersei bits of Eddard's plans to make for Winterfell. I think that, as well as others in the Court, certainly, was a big part of why his move went awry. Add to that the way she's being forced to go along with everything, and the resigned way in which she does it, contrasted with Arya, man, it's really depressing.

Favorite moment is hard to pin down for me too. Any time one of the direwolves saves one of the kids I cheered. I loved it when Robb's army crushed the Lannisters in front of Riverrun. But I think I was the most relieved when Jon went back to the Wall. I was crushed when he decided to leave, but part of me knew it couldn't last because the plot thread in the north was too strong to have our only link to it ride south. But I loved that he went back, and that he realized he needed to stay there.

With Ned gone, Jon is probably my favorite character.

I'm really looking forward to, or at least I hope this actually happens, Arya and Sansa reuniting at some point in the near future. I care less about their storyline than others, but I love how they both really need to grow up but in completely different ways. Sansa needs to grow a spine and drop the naivete. Arya needs to learn patience and self-discipline.

I tried to explain the basic plot of the book to a co-worker last night and after about ten minutes of explaining I realized how much I was leaving out and stopped and said "look, you just have to read it." I have to say though, I'm a little leery of the idea that this is supposed to be a SEVEN book series. I didn't know that until a couple hours ago. I figured the fifth awaited book was the last.

::goes off to spend the last half hour before bed time reading Book II::
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
It's so hard to talk to you because you've only read the first book. Every time I start to reply I realize I'm toeing the line of spoilers for a later book. Aaagghh!!!

I just finished re-reading the series a few weeks ago, so everything is still very fresh in my mind. Post your thoughts on the next one, midway through or finished, I don't care. It's great seeing someone experiencing it for the first time!
 

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Posted by adenam (Member # 11902) on :
 
SPOILERS

I also just finished A Game of Thrones.

I really like Dany and was extremely happy when she stood up to Viserys. I was crushed when she lost her baby and Drogo died. I'm really looking forward to seeing what she does in the next book.

I also hated it when Arya and Sansa lost their direwolves.
 

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Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by DDDaysh:
And, I have to ask again, what would be the best way to get ahold of these episodes if one does not have HBO? I've heard there are a variety of websites out there that will sell episodes after they've aired, but I've never used any of them, and I'm not even sure what they are. Any ideas?

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quote:

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Originally posted by adenam:
SPOILERS

I also just finished A Game of Thrones.

I really like Dany and was extremely happy when she stood up to Viserys. I was crushed when she lost her baby and Drogo died. I'm really looking forward to seeing what she does in the next book.

I also hated it when Arya and Sansa lost their direwolves.

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quote:

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Originally posted by umberhulk:
They showed Spartacus.

I never saw deadwood or the wiret online though.

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Spartacus is a Showtime show. Deadwood was HBO.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 


SPOILERS AGAIN

I'm hoping for lots of stuff. I'm hoping Arya finds Nymeria and makes it back to Winterfell. I'm hoping Sansa stabs Joffrey in his sleep. I'm hoping Bran walks again. I'm hoping Benjen is still alive and they find him. I'm hoping Robb can defend the north (I was ecstatic when they broke away). I'm hoping that Tyrion ends up being a force for good in the end.

There's so much going on that I've lost track of all my hopes.
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
Well, I can't tell you my hopes, so there!
 

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Posted by adenam (Member # 11902) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
Hope. Man, I remember what that was like.

I remember what it was like to dream. Martin crushed that out of me by book three.

No, no, I kid. There are still some things I hope for.

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This scares me.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Me too.

When terrible things happen to characters I love, it really emphasizes how much I care for the characters, so, I appreciate how powerful it is to make me feel that way. On the other hand, SOMETHING good has to happen, and some hopes have to pay off, otherwise, why bother finishing it?
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Hope is a good thing. Concerning ASoIaF, though, Lyrhawn...I won't tell if you that's a practical or a simply academic statement:)
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 


I'll just have to hope that there's a lot of payoff in the books that have yet to be written then.

Either that or I start rooting for the bad guys.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

quote:

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Either that or I start rooting for the bad guys.

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Man, I can't wait until you've read enough of the series to know why this made me laugh aloud.
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
This is why you can't have a thread with only minor spoilers about ASOIAF. What you don't say is as much a spoiler as what you do say. I can't think of any way to respond to Lyrhawn and adenam without contributing to the problem. I'll just say, enjoy the ride .

Glad to see some new people enjoying the series. When you get to book 3 feel free to bump my spoiler thread (or start your own, that one is a little dated). It starts getting spoilers for book 4 near the end of it once we've read that far.
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TomDavidson:

quote:

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Either that or I start rooting for the bad guys.

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Man, I can't wait until you've read enough of the series to know why this made me laugh aloud.

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Wow. I just need to shut up. Lyrhawn, finish the dang books!
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I'm 150 pages into ACoK and chugging along. Feels weird getting used to new characters.

I'd be further if I didn't have so much assigned reading for classes, but I'm hoping to be caught up to Feast for Crows by this time next week.

Thanks everyone for not dropping any spoilers. I'm dying to know what happens, but I want to find out as I was meant to.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
I, for one, am eagerly anticipating your reactions, Lyr. When I see new ASOIAF readers, it makes me wish I'd not read them so I could have the first-time experience all over again, because it is awesome.

Now, I'll stop, because I really want to say why...
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I was just talking to someone at work yesterday about how sad I am sometimes when I finish an awesome series, because the first-time experience is something you can never have back. She joked that I should write down all my reactions in a blog.

Now I'm seriously considering it.
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
I would love to see that. I'm always curious how many people pick up on some of the really popular big fan theories on their first read-through, versus how many don't notice until subsequent reads or after people have pointed out clues to them.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Just for kicks, I went ahead and did it: The Westeros Files

The URL was supposed to be a play on The West Wing, but, in hindsight I wish I would have made it the same name as the blog.

Anyway, feel free to read. The first post on there is both my up to date guesses and predictions, feelings on the characters, and a tiny bit of character analysis. I'm still in awe of how complex the plot is, and how many threads there are at any given time.
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
Wow. It is really fun to read your impressions. Keep them up!
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I agree. I love these books, so it is great to read your impressions of them as you go.
 

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Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
 
I can't remember--was it ASoIF or LoTR that Teshi blogged about as she read them?
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I've posted a couple of updates since creating the blog if anyone is interested. Also, I'd be interested to hear whatever spoiler-free responses people have to what I've written. Or, if they're all full of spoilers, keep them in your back pocket until I catch up.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TomDavidson:

quote:

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Either that or I start rooting for the bad guys.

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Man, I can't wait until you've read enough of the series to know why this made me laugh aloud.

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Oh man. That was hilarious.

I also liked the talk about hope when speaking to people who have only read A Game of Thrones. So great.

Wow, though. Talking about this series is really hard. I kinda feel like I should stay out of it, for I am afraid I will spoil some dramatic piece. Like from the second book. Or the third. Ahh, the third.

Anyway, I am now going to read Lyr's blog! I'll respond in a hopefully non-spoilery way afterwards.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Okay: To start with, I love your description of the way Arya and Sansa are developing in the second book.

The whole "two sides of the same coin" and "getting what they wanted" bit, though naturally I'm not going to get into particulars here.

Furthermore, I love hearing how you hope things will turn out. It's great fun to see.

Your reaction to Theon is priceless. "You're on my list, Theon!"

Also, yeah, in the second book Dany doesn't really do all that much.

The third book, however...
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Still loving it...lol...
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
To Lyr:

After reading your most recent blog, I'll say this. Please, please, please keep doing this. I want to see your reactions on future events so very much now.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
I've got a rather silly grin on my face right now, after reading your most recent reactions, Lyr. I'd tell you why, but, well, I want to see your reaction when you get there.
 

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Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
I think I need to re-read the books. I have a terrible memory so I don't feel like I can comment on anything. I never read A Feast for Crows, though, because you all convinced me I'd be very frustrated if I did (because some of the storylines I cared most about supposedly aren't even touched on). Still waiting for the next book to come out first. Do you think if I start re-reading the series from the beginning that will hurry along book 5?
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Yes. Do it yesterday!
 

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Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 

 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Uprooted:
I think I need to re-read the books. I have a terrible memory so I don't feel like I can comment on anything. I never read A Feast for Crows, though, because you all convinced me I'd be very frustrated if I did (because some of the storylines I cared most about supposedly aren't even touched on). Still waiting for the next book to come out first. Do you think if I start re-reading the series from the beginning that will hurry along book 5?

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quote:

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If people are telling me that it gets worse as the story goes on, I'm going to pull my hair out over the next 2,000 pages.

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AFFC is admittedly weak, but ASOS is the best of the bunch (IMO).

Hopefully ADWD gets things back into shape. One can hope at least.
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
I think that Feast gets a bad rap not because of what's in it, but because of what's not.

Lyr and Uprooted: It's not a real spoiler to tell you that Feast was created by breaking up the original fourth book, which was slated to be Dance (or, if it's a spoiler, it's one you should know going in, because realizing this halfway through would just be really infuriating). The way Martin split it, several key, favorite point of view characters are wholly absent. It focuses on certain areas of the world, and ignores others. Since many of the absent characters are fan-favorites, lots of fans were sorely disappointed.

Personally, I quite enjoyed Feast. But Storm is amazing at any rate, so you have that to look forward to.
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
Oh, yeah, and Lyrhawn. Regarding Jon's mother: One of the most popular fan theories is actually based solely on scenes in the first book. There are of course other theories, and other possible hints in other books, but... yeah. When you've finished the fourth one, you may want to go back and read through the first one again. ...And then all the others again.

...And again.

...And again.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Dan_Frank, I kinda agree.

See, I doubt this will be a spoiler, but I won't go too deep in details anyway:

The fourth book is technically only half of the fourth book. Only half of the characters are in it. And in fact, some of the characters are new ones, sometimes only getting a single chapter each!

However, the new ones tend to be grouped by location, showing us the important events that are happening in parts of Westeros we don't normally see, through the eyes of various players.

In fact, pretty much the entire book is filled with the "B" plots, while the "A" plots wait for book 5.

Now, I liked the B plots. A bunch of characters who don't normally get a lot of face time get tons here. Granted, one of them seems to go nowhere fast, which is honestly suitable for the character. However, the ending of that particular arc is a painful cliffhanger that will potentially give us a look into a group I really, really want to see. And yet which horrifies me at the same time. (Can anyone guess which one I mean yet?)

I fear I'll give actual plot away if I continue speaking. It's just that Davos and Theon and so on aren't the last of the new additions to the cast of viewpoint characters.

Though I doubt it's a spoiler now to say that whoever is the viewpoint character of the prologue dies, regardless of the book.

Anyway. I liked A Feast for Crows. It gave me some characters I liked' one or two that I loved so much I wish they'd get their own novel, which I guess this is, so wish granted; some insight into the wider world (yes! You get an even wider look!) and a strong sense of the repercussions of what everybody's done.

Also, I get to enter the mindset of somebody worse than Theon. And it is marvelous how Martin, who usually makes me love, or at least care about, the people whose skin he puts us in, makes me hate this one particular character even more now that I see their mind. It is an alien and terrible place and its attraction is something like a trainwreck, and makes that viewpoint perhaps the second most fun in the book.

All in all, A Feast for Crows lacks the really exciting bits. Even the preview bits I've read for A Dance For Dragons are exciting. That's where the real action is, and where the most interesting characters are. It pains me how much I look forward to it. But A Feast for Crows was good. It just focused on characters other than the ones I wanted!

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As for the mother thing: As for the most popular theory, think about how the term "bloody bed" is used, and go back to A Game of Thrones. That is all. You'll have to work for this one.

Hey, everyone else? Was I vague enough in my positive review of A Feast for Crows? If I'm not, tell me and I'll edit it immediately!
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
<insert massive coughing attack that may or may not be covering up spoilers here>

The second half of Feast was possibly the second-best half-book in the series, with the back half of Storm taking the cake for many, many awful and wonderful reasons. Considering that all my favorite characters bar one were in Feast, I'm actually very, very satisfied with it. In fact, I may have to dig it out again and reread it.

0Megabyte, two things: First, your review was vague enough that I had to think very hard about what you were discussing - totally spoiler-free! Second, I completely agree about the worse-than-Theon character. Getting inside this character's head was a total trainwreck, but an amazing one.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
I'm glad, Carrie. I was doing my best to not spoil!

Now, as I said, my favorite character in the entire series is pretty much the headliner of A Feast for Crows, so I was very happy. I was honestly very surprised when that person became my favorite, as I never, ever would have guessed it beforehand. But still, yay!

Second: Yeah, that worse-than-Theon character was someone I also never would have imagined I would like. And I still can't imagine how I would. I mean, wow. I can see where they're coming from now, and I actually understand what makes them tick and do the thing they do. But unlike with Theon, for whom sympathy ameliorates my distaste somewhat, understanding how this person ticks just makes me hate them worse!

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Also, I was reading the current sample chapter from A Dance with Dragons, and it looks very, very interesting. As it is one of the characters not shown in A Feast for Crows, I got a reminder about how tense and nearly hopeless the character's situation was. At least, until the end of this chapter, where a new path I hadn't anticipated presented itself... I guess I should have seen it coming, but I have honestly no idea how it'll turn out. Even saying anything is a spoiler, but man I want to talk about that scene.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Well, I finished "A Clash of Kings."

I just poured my heart out in two final blog entries for the book, and I have nothing left to give. Now I have an inkling as to why hope seemed like such an amusing concept to people a little while ago. ::sigh::

I will say though, that I feel like I understand Theon a lot more. And while on a purely analytical level I appreciate that, if I ever met him in real life, I'd still beat him senseless, throw him in The Chair, and pull the damned switch myself.

I'll probably start tackling A Storm of Swords in the next day. Against my better judgment.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Now I have an inkling as to why hope seemed like such an amusing concept to people a little while ago. ::sigh::

---

No you don't.

Actually, yeah, you do have an inkling. It's just fun to tease.

This series is great. But after reading your last post, I know that you know what you're getting yourself into. The third book probably the best of them so far. It's truly a great story. But it's also the middle of the story.

It's like, there are stories that get so dark and so depressing, that I feel like it's impossible for there to be an ultimately sad ending. Granted, when it gets too dark, bittersweet may be the best you can go. But a series where things go well and truly to their darkest possible points honestly earn that happy ending. Or an ending that makes you cry both for the grief of the loss as well as the joy of the success.

Call me an optimist. Because even though winter is coming, springwill come again.

At least, I believe it will. It has to, right? It must...

[ September 25, 2010, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: 0Megabyte ]
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I'm actually a little depressed. Blogging it out helped a little, but not much. You know normally people would react to something like this by saying "it can't get any worse," but after having most everything I cared about in the book methodically destroyed, I only expect it to get worse, as I discover there really are things left to care about, only to have them destroyed as well. It kind of weirds me out that I've gone from "wow I hope so and so is okay" to "I hope so and so dies!"

And yet I hope... Damn, sometimes it sucks being an optimist.

I'm looking forward to, some day, figuring out the business with Jon's mother.

I'll soldier on through ASoS now, though much more guardedly. At the very least, if Martin is going to fill the books with characters that are so easy to hate, it'll be nice if they're actually somewhat complicated. The Lannisters as a whole feel pretty one dimensional, except Tyrion, who's the most complex of them all maybe. Theon even had complexity to him, which was impressive given his limited screen time. It made his evil all the more hateable. So if we're going to go dark in the third book, then take me all the way, but I don't just want to be jerked around, I want my mind blown.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Lyr: There will be things left to care about. Even when things are at their darkest, there will still be things left to save.

I want you to know that. All the joking aside, you have to know that though things will never be back to normal, and what's lost can never be brought back, there will still be things of value in the end.

Of course, the series isn't done yet. Martin could always magick everyone back to life, and fix what's been destroyed. But I can't believe he would. He has too much integrity, and he's put too much into this world to reset it with some cheap deus ex machina.

But yeah, to reiterate: There will be things left to care about, and left to hope for, even when things are at their worst. Of course, you're going to find yourself surprised at what some of those things turn out to be...
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Btw, everyone who has read this series should read this blog. Lyr here gives beautiful voice to many things. It's a great read.

Also, in response to your suppositions: Yes. Rhaegar was married. But even so... why does it have to be rape? I can't say more, but I have no evidence supporting this, so it really isn't a spoiler. Just throwing it out there, is all.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
It kind of weirds me out that I've gone from "wow I hope so and so is okay" to "I hope so and so dies!"

---

That was an odd transition, this is true. And really, since so many other people have died, I find happiness and glee in that favored characters still live (that's not really a spoiler, since there wouldn't be books without living characters... ).

Honestly, I am really, really anxious to read your reactions to The Big Event in ASOS. There are number of fabulous things that happen, but The One Thing That Happens is just... unreal.

Thanks again for sharing your reactions, Lyr!
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 

quote:

---

Also, in response to your suppositions: Yes. Rhaegar was married. But even so... why does it have to be rape? I can't say more, but I have no evidence supporting this, so it really isn't a spoiler. Just throwing it out there, is all.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
I want you to know that. All the joking aside, you have to know that though things will never be back to normal, and what's lost can never be brought back, there will still be things of value in the end.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
Hey, Lyr? Reading your newest post, and... um... about the Knight of Flowers... that isn't knightly duty that's got him so upset... yeah.

How to put it delicately. Think back. At how much closer Renly was to Loras than to Margaery, his wife...

---

Yeah, you'll catch that in my next post. I didn't pick up on it immediately, but I got it eventually.
 

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Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
 
I havent read crows yet. But Asha seems like an awesome character.

Actually what I might do, since crows and dragons are supposed to happen at the same time, is alternate between a dragons and a crows chapter every time.

Could be trippy.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Ton's of casting info hidden in Not a Blog....
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
To quote Lyr: "I hope he finds his Yoda."

Sadly, I can't say anything at all in regards to that. *silent, knowing grin.*
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Also: About your "intervention" for Dany. Don't worry, things pick up fast for her. I dare say some of the more... cinematic... moments in the series happen under her watch.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I was hoping that it would head in that direction. My intervention is temporarily suspended pending the progression of her plot line, which appears to be developing into a very interesting story. I'm quite turned around on Dany as far as plot goes. I'd like to see more done with her character at the moment though. She's not as complex as the others.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Just remember this: She's actually sorta crazy. Dany is a Targaryen after all, and not above being truly frightening.

You already saw a bit of that in the first book. You'll see more of it here.
 

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Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TomDavidson:

quote:

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Either that or I start rooting for the bad guys.

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Man, I can't wait until you've read enough of the series to know why this made me laugh aloud.

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Hahaha, same here. Also related is my answer to an earlier question, my favorite villain.

That would have to be Tyrian. But is he really a villain? Who knows?
 

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Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
 
That scene was awesome. I was like duuude.
 

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Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
 
I think the only true villain in the series is Cersei.
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
Gregor Clegane would argue with that. Then he'd rape you and cut you in half.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Cersei pales in comparison to Littlefinger.
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
But it's an interesting point--there are plenty of despicable characters, but Cersei has directed a lot of the real trouble.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Xavier:
Gregor Clegane would argue with that. Then he'd rape you and cut you in half.

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quote:

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Cersei has directed a lot of the real trouble.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rakeesh:
I don't know by what possible standard Gregor Clegane fails to be a villain.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TomDavidson:

quote:

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Cersei has directed a lot of the real trouble.

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Cersei been thoroughly and completely manipulated by Littlefinger.

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quote:

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Originally posted by prolixshore:
Someone should go back and warn Lyr that this thread is no longer spoiler free

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Yeah it sort of went off the rails in the last 30 posts or so, but nothing frustrating has really been revealed. Plus I'm more than halfway through, which only leaves half the spoilers in the series available to me.

I might have to start tiptoeing through this thread though until I finish Feast, which is still some days off. But, feel free to discuss as you will, if it so strikes you. It's cool that this thread has morphed into a more general SoIaF appreciation thread so, I'll gladly put blinders on temporarily.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Good lord, how fast are you?! I read through these books over the course of months! Long, glorious months of very wonderful reading... but I was also busy making films during that whole time.

Best I managed was 200 pages in a single day.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Well, I started the second book on September 20, and finished on about September 25. I think it took about four or five days to finish the Game of Thrones. I started the third book the same day (25), and today I'm 200 pages in. I'll probably read some more tonight in between working on homework.

My professor emailed my class earlier to tell us all to cancel half our readings because we were falling behind, and then reminded me that we have a paper due. So I was excited to have a lightened load...but I'd totally forgotten about the paper. Bit of a give and take there.

I'm not good at stretching out reading over long periods, and I'm a very fast reader when reading for fun. I'm too curious. When I sat down for the first time to read Harry Potter, I read the first five books in about three days. I got Deathly Hallows at midnight when it was released, and finished it around noon I think the next day, with a nap in between. On the one hand, I regret blowing through things because you only get that first read once, and then it's gone, though some things are more repeat readable than others. But on the other hand, the impatience of waiting to finish is maddening. At least this series is heavy and emotionally taxing enough to almost demand occasional breaks.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
I guess if I had managed my pace of 200 per day for every day, I would have gotten it too. But then I would have done next to nothing for that time period.
 

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Posted by sinflower (Member # 12228) on :
 
I can't hate Cersei because it's so obvious that she's written to be the shallow conniving stupid slutty one we're all supposed to hate. But she just comes off flat. Same with Joffrey. He was too simple for a story full of so many multifaceted characters. No one's that unequivocably vile.

I think Walder Frey is a good villain.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Yes, his single scene in A Game of Thrones showed him to be a rather slippery character. A pity that such minor characters that we don't see again is the extent of true villainy in this story.

However, Cersei is more than a shallow conniving stupid one. She finds it unfair that she was the one who was treated as less than Jamie from an early age. She was married to a man she didn't want, who did actually abuse her and cheat on her constantly.

Her time in the sun is here, she's waited for years to have that power, and she'll be damned to let it slip from her after all this time and all this effort. Would I really be too different? Probably, but I can see where she's coming from.

Furthermore, she has another problem that's a spoiler all on its own. And she's trying to stop it from happening. She's doing a terrible job of it, though.

She makes bad decisions, is paranoid and vindictive, she's blind to her son's problems, or at least in denial. She does love her children, and would never harm them, though her own needs and power comes first, like certain historical queens and empresses. I doubt she'd ever kill her own child, and in that way she's better than some historical royal mothers.

She isn't as shallow as she seems. She's definitely evil, but there are reasons for her being the way she is. Stupid reasons, sometimes, but not every character gets to be a genius.
 

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Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
Yeah. However, at least part of it is erroneous. Gregore never becomes Tyrion's champion, for example. But you can still figure some things out from that...

---

Oops, you're right. Gregore was on the other side of that.
 

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Posted by Ryoko (Member # 4947) on :
 
I just wanted to chime in as some others have done and thank Lyrhawn for the wonderful blog.

I've really enjoyed reading it and look forward to the next update.
 

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Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
I keep checking for the next update.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
I know! Me too. I want to see his impression on a few certain events, in particular. I can't wait until he gets there.

Hey Lyr, any hint as to when we should all look for it?
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
**** Major Spoilers for Lyrhawn ****

quote:

---

That actually kind of saddens me. I'm...beginning to...sort of...like him.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
I know! Me too. I want to see his impression on a few certain events, in particular. I can't wait until he gets there.

Hey Lyr, any hint as to when we should all look for it?

---

At the pace he is going, he's gotta be about there, right?
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
SPOILER


I know. And I know you know which event I mean. I just... really, really want to see his reaction.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
I know! Me too. I want to see his impression on a few certain events, in particular. I can't wait until he gets there.

Hey Lyr, any hint as to when we should all look for it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xavier:

Anyway, as for "Jaime Lannister sends his regards", if I remember correctly Jaime tells Roose to give his regards to Robb when they released Roose.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
I already edited it. Though the damage may have been done.

I've just been waiting so long for him to reach that point where I don't have to keep that secret, that I honestly guess a whole lot of information crept out I didn't intend.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I still really like certain characters, like Bran and Jon, and I'm really fascinated by Jaime and Tyrion, even if I don't like then per se, but I don't really care if any of them win, I'm just fascinated by their journeys of development.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Xavier:
By the way, now that you've read the first three books give this a read: http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html

It's pretty much conclusive, in my mind and many others.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
Five chapters left to go!

I think the Christmas hope sounds a little unrealistic, given how long it takes him to decide that something is truly finished, but man that sure would be awesome.

---

quote:

---

I do know I'll be there at day one for the hardcover.

---

I spent an extra 40 bucks or so to get the UK version of AFFC, since his books get published there a couple of weeks earlier.

Since I was fairly disappointed with AFFC, I doubt I'll be doing that again this time.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Weird. I know it isn't quite as good as A Storm of Swords, but I found Crows to be really interesting.

Besides... most of my favorite characters will actually be in Dragon, as opposed to Crows, who had mostly B-listers.
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
There were parts I liked, don't get me wrong. I just think the book as a whole is seriously flawed. I go into it a bit on my ASOIAF thread, and would be willing to discuss it more there or in a new thread.

(Or just wait until Lyrhawn starts on it)
 

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Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
 
I love Crows because it follows more of Arya. Not gonna say much more for fear of spoiling.
 

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Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
 
Man, I really want to read crows now.
 

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Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
 
So, I've read the first two. I was moderately interested, but found the books vaguely boring.

Does it pick up?
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
I've heard a lot of complaints about ASOIAF, but I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone say it was boring. I don't think I've ever read a book where more stuff happens in fewer pages than AGOT. World changing events at that.

I guess I'd need to know what kinds of stuff you are interested in reading about to answer that.

Edit: I can see someone finding it boring if they didn't care about any of the characters. Was that the problem?
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Feast just arrived in the mail.


::stares at it longingly::

Next week I'm going to devour that thing.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
LOL....I am about half way though Clash of Kings, because I want to reread the whole saga cover to cover.

I love reading your blog still, and that probably helped me actually reread the series now. I had been meaning to for a while.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I think either when Dance or the HBO series comes out, I'm going to read them over again. I already think that I'm going to key in on a lot of things that I didn't the first time. It's just that kind of series. You can only pick up on so much foreshadowing, and the rest you have to go back and figure out after he's already done the big reveal.

The blog will recommence next Thursday, most likely, after I've taken the GRE, written two papers, read two other books and a short story, and hopefully, got drunk the night of the GRE test in either celebration or as a tonic for my misery.
 

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Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xavier:
I've heard a lot of complaints about ASOIAF, but I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone say it was boring. I don't think I've ever read a book where more stuff happens in fewer pages than AGOT. World changing events at that.

I guess I'd need to know what kinds of stuff you are interested in reading about to answer that.

Edit: I can see someone finding it boring if they didn't care about any of the characters. Was that the problem?

---

quote:

---

It's over a thousand pages with little action, and it's fantastic.

---

Huh. I dislike everything Sanderson's ever written. Clearly you are weird.
 

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Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomDavidson:

quote:

---

It's over a thousand pages with little action, and it's fantastic.

---

Huh. I dislike everything Sanderson's ever written. Clearly you are weird.

---

I certainly am.

Mistborn was TERRIBLE. . . .
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Eh. Not all books are for everyone. If Herbley doesn't like it, then that's okay.

We like it. And isn't that what matters? *winks*

As to Xavier: You know, a new thread would be nice for those things you were mentioning. I hadn't seen what you said until now! I do want to hear what you felt were the flaws in Feast.

And also, food for thought: Do you think the reason Martin went back and essentially started over on Dance, even though it was technically almost done when Feast was, was because he felt it was flawed in the same way?
 

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Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
 
My point wasn't that I didn't like the series, though it certainly isn't my favorite. My question was whether it gets better or worse after the first two books.

With Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time novels, for example, someone who was a little bored with the first four novels SHOULDN'T continue.

So, does it pick up with books three and four? Or is it more of the same?
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Oh. Well... hmm. There are some really good parts in both books, but the pacing and so forth doesn't change that much.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Interesting interview with Martin

Martin talks about untying the "Meereenese knot" and it sounds like he's making some progress. Really it sounds like most everything is written, it's just a matter of figuring out the best sequence of events so that everything flows. He also says that, pending space requirements, Dance will actually have Feast characters in it at the end when the two books match up their timelines and continue forward. If it ends up being too long, those will get pushed to the sixth book, which from the sound of things must already be something like a fifth completed given the page numbers Martin has said have been pushed back.

He also talks a fair bit about the HBO series, which continues to sound fascinating. The first season will be 10 episodes long. He suspects that subsequent seasons will be longer, and that Storm may even require being split into two seasons.

Perhaps most interestingly, the interviewer asked him if, even with the lead time he has, is it possible that HBO will finish the first four books as seasons before he has a chance to produce the material necessary to keep the show going (should it be a success). Martin responded that he should be able to finish the series within the allotted time. That means that, assuming a season a year, perhaps two for ASoS and maybe two for ADWD, the last three books will be out within the next eight years or so. That's actually not bad considering the last two (that's including the forthcoming ADWD) have taken more than ten years.

Martin says that Feast and Dance in particular had were so incredibly complicated that they just too a lot longer to figure out, and suggests that Winds of Winter and Dream of Spring might only take 2-2.5 years to write each instead of five. That's really not a bad guess considering it too two years to write Clash and the considerably longer Storm...and then five for Feast and five plus for Dance. Assuming the last two books don't have the same structural conundrums, they might be out in half the time. One also has to consider that what has become Feast/Dance was never intended to be written. Martin originally planned to leap into the future and deal with this timespan via flashback, but decided that was too ungainly, forcing him to write what might end up being almost 2,000 pages of extra material that was never in his original plans. It's no surprise it has taken him so long. But when he returns to his original plan, it might also be unsurprising to see him pop the books out considerably quicker.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
New post on my blog. I know I said I wasn't reading for awhile, but circumstances practically demanded that I read a little bit.

There's also a little bonus on there that people may or may not appreciate.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
As for that interview:

Am I right to assume you frequent Martin's not-a-blog? That's where I found a link to that interview, originally.

Also, it is a really interesting interview... I can't wait for the show. And yet, I don't have HBO anymore. Le sigh.

*goes to read the new Lyr post*
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I'm thinking about getting HBO just for the show. That's a pretty big leap for me, but I'm that excited about it. Besides, if they air all ten episodes back to back, I only need to pay for it for three months.
 

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Posted by Ryoko (Member # 4947) on :
 

quote:

---

I'm thinking about getting HBO just for the show.

---

All I can say is "beware". We got HBO for the Sopranos many years ago and have been hooked ever since.

HBO series are like potato chips.
 

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Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
I hope that I am just being sceptical but I am afraid that after 5 years, Mr. Martin has just gotten good at making it sound like there is progress. I fervently wish to be proved wrong.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
Also remember that it's fall, and much of Mr. Martin's time will (rightfully, IMHO ) be spent watching football.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
So, I just got the Legends collection of short stories today in the mail. Inside of it are neat novellas from people like Stephen King, Robert Jordon, Anne McCaffrey, our esteemed host here on these forums with an Alvin Maker story, and -most relevant to this thread- George R.R. Martin and his prequel to A Song of Ice and Fire.

Dunk and Egg, as it's called, is so far a three part story, and weirdly enough I got each part in exactly opposite order. Which meant that I couldn't read any of them until today!

So, anyway, the first one, The Hedge Knight, is a lot more cheerful than A Song of Ice and Fire. Which isn't saying much. But whatever.

Has anyone else read this prequel? I don't want to spoil it, though much of what's revealed here is mentioned in the actual novels. Several of the characters are the brothers of Maester Aemon, back when they were all young, for example.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Of course we've read it.
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
I haven't read the third part, thanks for the reminder. Was waiting on the soft cover, and looks like that's still not out. Darn.

The first two parts have graphic novels, and I actually prefer the stories in this format. They are very well done .
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I read the first two as well.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Alright, I finished the three prequel novellas over a week ago, now. So I think it's time to say at least a little about them.

Dunk and Egg just seems so much more... positive than the main series. I mean, yes, Ser Duncan the Tall is an absolutely terrible jouster (which is great, btw) but he keeps solving problems.

He tends to find a solution that nobody else finds, and makes things better, even at the price of his own pain and suffering (and, of course, the price of not getting to bone the Red Widow. He seemed quite annoyed by that.)

He seems like the sort of hero, and the sort of knight, that Westeros would really, really need a hundred years later. And yet, I can't help but feel like he'd die a terribly painful death if he had been born during the present day of the series.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
You know what eventually happens to Egg, right?
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
I'm aware of their eventual fate.

spoilers:


Anyway, dying tragically many years later when they're much, much older isn't quite the same thing as the ridiculous amount of death that happens in the modern time of the series.

After all, everyone has to die sometime. Yes, the fire was a tragedy, and if it hadn't have happened Aerys 2 may not have ever become king, but still, Dunk and Egg are no Eddard or Robb.


----


Oh! Also: I still await your next post, Lyr. I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on the previous books, and I would love to see your thoughts on this one!
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
Lyr!! I miss your posts. Still reading Feast?
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Argh, I feel the same as you, Dan. I cannot wait for the next one. It is definitely selfish... but Lyr's enjoyment and interesting insights is something special to watch.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
I hate to say it, especially here...but I am not sure I will buy any more of Martin's books.

It's taking so long I have lost interest, and I don't want to invest more time just to have to wait years and years again for the NEXT book. Someone can just let me know how things turn out and I believe I'll be okay with that.

I have moved on - I have read new things and I have gone back and re-read old favorites and I find that in that process I do not pick up and re-read anything from ASOIAF. I loved the series when I read each book the first time, I went back and re-read different parts of the first three books in particular but now I am over it. I don't even know where my copies of the books are now, and after five years, I think I've given up.

Maybe I'll change my mind when Dance of Dragons comes out....we'll just have to wait and see.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Belle - That's why I think I got drawn in at just the right time. You suckers started reading this series a decade ago or more, and had to wait a decade or more for more books. I got in waaaay after, and now I only have to wait a little bit for the next book. As I've said before, I think he's going to publish it in the next few months, and I think once the Dance logjam is broken, the rest will come in relatively short order. You suckers lose out because you got in on the ground floor.

Megabyte, in response to your comment on the blog about Damphair/Damp Hair, there's also Bronn (Brawn) who serves as a near personality-less hired muscle. I think if I went back and really looked, I could find a few names that serve dual purposes like that that are so literal you fly right past it.

Megabyte, Dan - More is coming soon. I feel bad actually because I had my second post all written out but I never typed it out and posted it. Maybe I'll do that later tonight to show I still care and I'm still around. I got sucked back in a little bit right after I told you guys I didn't have time, but then I REALLY didn't have the time. I'm still pretty busy, but I can actually breathe now.

However, I'm taking three English classes right now. In the last 8 weeks, I've read 13 novels, and probably three dozen scholarly articles. Sitting on my desk are two novels, a short story, a play, a few articles, and a history book (that I need to skim) that all have to be taken care of by next Wednesday or so. I should say that, it's not so much that I'm busy, as the fact that reading slightly repulses me at the moment.

At least when I'm forced to do this much reading (if not twice as much) in grad school, it'll all be on history books and not an endless stream of novels, most of which I can't stand.
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
Bronn totally has a personality!

Also, that's a little different from Damphair because Damphair isn't his name, it's what people call him and it really is supposed to mean Damp Hair.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Yeah, he had a personality (sort of). But he existed more for a purpose than for his oh so important character development.
 

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Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Belle - That's why I think I got drawn in at just the right time. You suckers started reading this series a decade ago or more, and had to wait a decade or more for more books. I got in waaaay after, and now I only have to wait a little bit for the next book.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DDDaysh:
Have you read any of Martin's stuff that's not from ASOIAF? I got suckered into buying a short story, and it was terrible!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jebus202:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Belle - That's why I think I got drawn in at just the right time. You suckers started reading this series a decade ago or more, and had to wait a decade or more for more books. I got in waaaay after, and now I only have to wait a little bit for the next book.

---

I remember thinking something quite similar about 5 or so years ago when I first read the series.

---

+1

I have been enjoying my re-read and have managed to catchup with Lyr since he seems to be busy.


So, how's it going? =)
 

---

Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
The end seems to be in sight for me as far as school work goes. Thursday is the last day of finals for me this semester, and hopefully after that weekend I'll also have all my grad school applications turned in.

And after that? Feast! A week from today, the journey continues!

Then I figure 6 months from now Dance will be out. I know, cue the jokes.
 

---

Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
Look at it this way, Lyr. In a few years you can introduce a friend to the series and when he's finishing Feast and says "hey, well, at least I don't have to wait long for Dance!" you'll be in on the joke, and you'll get a chance to tease someone else about it.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
If there's a God, he'll be saying "Winds of Winter" instead of "Dance." But yes, I do look forward to being part of the frustrated multitudes who tease the newbies about being happy for not having gotten in on the ground floor.

Life was so much simpler and care free before I started ASOIAF.
 

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Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
 
It's a lot of fun reading your thoughts, Lyr.

You pick up an impressive amount of information on a single read-through.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
For anyone still anticipating future blog posts: I'm going to start Feast up again tomorrow night when I get home from work. I'm going to start over from the beginning since it's been so long since I've read anything, but I imagine I'll continue at a pace similar to what I've read in the past.

School is over, grad applications are turned in, and all I have to do is work a little more than usual. I'm free as a bird!
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Woo hoo!
 

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Posted by Yebor1 (Member # 1380) on :
 
The fifth novel update from wikipedia......pasted and copied so as not to include and spoilers


Despite original predictions of possible completion in late 2006, Martin has not finished the book as of December 2010[update]. Martin's blog has featured sporadic updates on his progress, and in January 2008 he posted an update on his website affirming his vigilant commitment to finishing the book.[12] In early 2008, publisher Spectra Books (a division of Random House) announced that A Dance with Dragons would be released on September 30, 2008,[16] but Martin stated this would only be possible if he finished writing by the end of June, before a trip to Spain and Portugal,[17] and he did not meet this goal.[18]

On February 19, 2009, Martin posted on his website, "I am trying to finish the book by June. I think I can do that. If I do, A Dance with Dragons will likely be published in September or October."[1] On June 22, 2009, the author expressed "guarded optimism" in respect to his progress on the book, while still not confirming a publication date.[19] When asked in a July 2009 interview with FREE! Magazine how the book was going, Martin stated, "It is going pretty well, actually. I am hoping to finish it by September or October; that is my goal."[20] On October 6, 2009, Martin said that his working manuscript for A Dance With Dragons had just exceeded 1,100 pages of completed chapters, plus "considerably more in partials, fragments, and roughs."[21] He noted that this made the upcoming novel longer than his earlier books A Game of Thrones and A Feast for Crows, and nearly as long as A Clash of Kings.[21]

On March 2, 2010, Martin remarked that he had reached 1,311 manuscript pages, making Dance the second longest book in the series at that point, behind only the 1,521-page manuscript of A Storm of Swords.[22]

On July 8, 2010, Martin spoke at a conference and confirmed the current length of the book to be 1,400 manuscript pages. He expressed his disappointment that he was unable to completely finish the book by the conference, although he would not speculate how soon the book would be completed after his return home on July 11.[23] At the same conference, Martin also confirmed that he has written one Sansa, one Arya, and two Arianne chapters for the planned sixth novel, Winds of Winter, and has transferred two Cersei chapters from that book into A Dance with Dragons.[24]

On August 7, 2010, Martin confirmed that he has completed 8 POV's, excluding prologue and epilogue.[25]

On October 10, 2010, at the New York Comic Con, Spectra senior editor Anne Groell stated that Martin had announced he had five chapters remaining, with sections of the chapters already completed. She also wanted to get the manuscript completed by December.[26]

In a December 2010 interview with Bear Swarm, Martin stated that he almost has Dance With Dragons completed [27]

The delays surrounding A Dance with Dragons have polarized some of Martin's fan base, questioning his commitment to finishing the series.[28]


me again...
it seems to me most of his delay this past year was his working on the hbo series
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Well, I guess that means Arya and Sansa survive to the end of Feast. Guess I need to read faster.

Martin's Dec. 16th blog post:

quote:

---

It's snowing.

On Jon. On the krakens. On me.

We all slog onward.

Finished a chapter a few days ago. Revised another. Then re-revised it.

The days go too fast, the work too slowly. But onward.

---

quote:

---

You suckers started reading this series a decade ago or more, and had to wait a decade or more for more books. I got in waaaay after, and now I only have to wait a little bit for the next book.

---

quote:

---

1. Gardens of the Moon (1999)
2. Deadhouse Gates (2000)
3. Memories of Ice (2001)
4. House of Chains (2002)
5. Midnight Tides (2004)
6. The Bonehunters (2006)
7. Reaper's Gale (2007)
8. Toll the Hounds (2008)
9. Dust of Dreams (2009)
10. The Crippled God (forthcoming)

---

With the exception of the first one, each of these books is 1,000+ pages. All of them have long POV character lists and the overarching plots are tremendously intricate, and each book casts some of the events of previous books in a new light, so reading them is fairly time-consuming for me, and I usually deliberately intersperse other books between Malazan books. I just started Toll the Hounds this week, and received Dust of Dreams for Christmas. By the time I finish Dust of Dreams, The Crippled God will be out in paperback (it's already complete; initial publication date is in Q1 2011) and I'll be able to read it at my leisure.
 

---

Posted by Unmaker (Member # 1641) on :
 
Twinky, you notice how Erikson only needs about a year or two to finish a book of the same size as GRRM's 5-year projects? Hrmph.
 

---

Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
He's also dropped a few novellas in that span.
 

---

Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Unmaker:
Twinky, you notice how Erikson only needs about a year or two to finish a book of the same size as GRRM's 5-year projects? Hrmph.

---

Yeah, how dare Martin not write on the schedule we want. That makes him a failure!
 

---

Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
I'd say that the only reason we're all so impatient is because the series is just that good.

However, even so, he never technically made a contract with us stating he owed us the conclusion...

Of course, I'm a hypocrite for saying that, because if he said "you know, I don't want to write this anymore. KTHXBAI" I'd be, not merely part of the angry mob, I'd be selling people pitchforks at a discount.
 

---

Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
selling? I'd be giving them away.
 

---

Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Dan, Unmaker didn't suggest anything like that. All he said was that there are authors out there whose epic-length ongoing series might be more enjoyable to read because they get finished.
 

---

Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
Well, he also said "hrmph" which to me implied indignation. I may be projecting though. I used to be very indignant, until I read Neil Gaiman and Martin himself writing about people being indignant with how long it takes him. Then I realized that the bottom line is I want to read them, and I want to read them when he thinks they're worth reading. That takes as long as it takes.
 

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Posted by Unmaker (Member # 1641) on :
 
Well, not indignation, Dan, just annoyance. Obviously people work at different paces, but the GRRM thing just smacks of performance anxiety to me. Now, if Martin were, I dunno, a full time educator or something writing in his spare time, I'd be more inclined to hang loose. But as it is... argh.
 

---

Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
New post is up.

The Westeros Files

Hopefully on a regular basis now.
 

---

Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
*pops the cork on the champagne.*
 

---

Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Another new post. Like I said, hopefully on a regular basis now.

Looks like there are a crap ton of new viewpoint characters.
 

---

Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Yeah, this story is interesting.

The new characters, I think, are at the heart of this story. Since the Red Wedding and the other events in A Storm of Swords, the previous big event is over. Now we're in the reconstruction phase, and in the new political situations we get to see some of the players for the new period that's coming.

Also, this being Westeros, you know that whatever's going to happen, it's going to be a disaster. This is not a hint to anything in particular, just a theory about this world I have.
 

---

Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Couple new posts up. Finally starting to see the beginning of some major new plots in motion. It's interesting to be with the plotter rather than the victim. It seems like most of the past tragedies, like Ned or the Red Wedding were about the reader reacting to unannounced tragedy. We never saw it coming, and it was shocking. Now we're more like horrified voyeurs. We see the plots in King's Landing as they are being formed rather than only when they actually hit. Very different feeling.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Indeed it is. There's some "fun" stuff coming in that vein. And as always, Jaime is interesting.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Jaime, thus far, has actually been one of my biggest disappointments. I was thrilled to get a novel that centered on him more, and instead his chapters are pretty blah. I liked him a lot more when he was on the run with Brienne, and Brienne's chapters are mostly boring as well because there's no one there to really push and challenge her except for her inner-Brienne, which is largely tinged with self-doubt.

Arya has had two chapters in like 400 pages, which is a letdown. I really wanted to know more about her.

I dunno. All in all this is probably my least favorite book so far, but I AM still enjoying it, and I'm finding some interesting nuggets along the way. It just seems so slow after Storm. I mean the pace was already slow. But this is glacial.

I still think Dance is going to be announced soon. There have been rumblings in the blogosphere. Amazon I think even has it listed, though not until 2012, which I think is much further away than it will actually be.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
I know what you mean. Honestly, most of the interesting stuff is probably happening in the north and the east in this period. At least, I hope so!

Jon dealing with Stannis has got to be worth reading. Also, Dany deals with dragons and her little kingdom is always a good read. And Tyrion's off doing... something.

I do agree that Feast is the least favorite, but it's not a bad book at all. There's some very interesting stuff, and by the end we get a really good... well, let me put it this way. This book is obviously the lull before the storm. Unfortunately, that means most of Dance will also be lull.

Luckily, Martin has stated he's already past the point where the storyline catches up, and apparently there will be stuff that takes place after the end of Feast.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
...Brienne's chapters are mostly boring as well because there's no one there to really push and challenge her except for her inner-Brienne, which is largely tinged with self-doubt.

---

quote:

---

I dunno. All in all this is probably my least favorite book so far, but I AM still enjoying it, and I'm finding some interesting nuggets along the way.

---

quote:

---

I still think Dance is going to be announced soon.

---

quote:

---

Amazon I think even has it listed, though not until 2012, which I think is much further away than it will actually be.

---

quote:

---

Amazon listing it means absolutely nothing. They often post publication dates that are pure fiction. I'm really not sure why.

---

quote:

---

They're also boring because we already know that her quest is futile. We know that she isn't going to be successful in finding the girls (it's been a long time since I read it. Is she specifically looking for Sansa rather that Arya, or is she looking for both of them?). The Brienne chapters are a long, pointless slog.

---

Man, I could have written that myself.

In fact, a search reveals I said something much like it back in 2005:
My AFFC thread

Added: Wow, that was a really good thread. I can say that cause most of the great posts weren't made by me .

[ January 14, 2011, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Man, even reading the first few posts is great.

Not to spoil anything, but Lyr should know too that I like the Iron Islands and Dorne chapters, same as you, Xavier.

Stuff happens there! We have interesting characters doing interesting things! Etc!

The Brienne chapters were dull. I almost skimmed them, and I never skim this story. Except for what it sets up.

Because the whole book is set-up. What's too bad is that there's no payoff. We'll just have to wait for next time, I guess.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
It's really sad to see my posts on that old thread and see my enthusiasm. I have none now. I doubt I'll even read Dragons.


 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
Jeez, even reading you saying that is sad for me.

It's amazing how much has changed in my life in the 5.5 years since I made that thread.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Aww, Belle! While it's been a long time, I'd still say you should go and read Dragons when it comes out.

I mean, who'd expect someone to keep anticipating something excitedly for five, going on six years, right? It's natural for that enthusiasm to wane. And there's no sense waiting that long in rapt attention. But nevertheless, if the series gave you that much enjoyment, and the new one comes out sometime in your lifetime, it might not be a bad use of your time to read the new one!
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
Several sites have been receiving some amazing looking packages related to the Game of Thrones... Various bloggers and TV critics received very elaborate packages containing "scent-boxes": kits for making your own incense, with Game of Thrones locations and elements as themes for the scents. Also, a very cool map and fancy scrolls.
Impressively produced.

http://violetblue.posterous.com/gallery-incredible-schwag-hbos-gameofthrones

http://www.jasondenzel.com/2011/game-of-thrones01/

http://winter-is-coming.net/2011/02/the-maesters-path-begins/

http://jchutchins.net/site/2011/02/25/winter-is-coming-a-transmedia-fiction-experience-with-j-c/


The packages are believed to be put together by a transmedia agency called Campfire Media in New York.

There is the possibility of an ARG or some online "transmedia" content coming soon. The packages seem to point to here:

http://themaesterspath.com/winteriscoming.html
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
From Martin's blog:

quote:

---

And on other fronts... it's still snowing on Skull Island, but one of the krakens is done and t'other is down to the last tentacle. Closer and closer... inch by inch, word by word, step by step...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
From Martin's blog:

quote:

---

And on other fronts... it's still snowing on Skull Island, but one of the krakens is done and t'other is down to the last tentacle. Closer and closer... inch by inch, word by word, step by step...

---

I maintain that it will be released this year.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jake:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
From Martin's blog:

quote:

---

And on other fronts... it's still snowing on Skull Island, but one of the krakens is done and t'other is down to the last tentacle. Closer and closer... inch by inch, word by word, step by step...

---

I maintain that it will be released this year.

---

Yeah, I think this year is pretty likely. If I had to guess I'd say that we'll see it in the Fall.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwea:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jake:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
From Martin's blog:

quote:

---

And on other fronts... it's still snowing on Skull Island, but one of the krakens is done and t'other is down to the last tentacle. Closer and closer... inch by inch, word by word, step by step...

---

I maintain that it will be released this year.

---

Yeah, I think this year is pretty likely. If I had to guess I'd say that we'll see it in the Fall.

---

That's what I thought the past 3 years....

---

Me too. I still think Lyrics is right for some reason.

That probably makes mme insane, by the popular definition.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Earned my first link, partly by chance.
 

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Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
 
A Dance with Dragons: July 12, 2011!

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-update.html
 

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Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
 
I was just coming over here to post that!
 

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Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
Official poster for Game of Thrones, courtesy of their official Twitter account.
 

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Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
 
Man, I am ridiculously excited about this series. Movie adaptations I usually don't get excited about, since I hate how much of the books get left out. But having a whole series for each book... mmm...

[ March 14, 2011, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: plaid ]
 

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Posted by Sa'eed (Member # 12368) on :
 
I like how the guy who played Carcetti in "The Wire" got a role in this.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0318821/
 

---

Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
A pretty important one too, as the series rolls on. Maybe not a whole lot of face time early-on, but certainly important.
 

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Posted by John Van Pelt (Member # 5767) on :
 
Okay, so (a) Hi!, and (b) HR tells me Dance has a publication date, before Sharpie does? She will pay, pay I tells ya.

I'm also excited about the HBO series.

And... hi!
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Anyone watch the 15 min preview of Game of Thrones?

Lookin pretty good! Some things are a little different visually than I expected, but it looks great. Awesome that you get to see The Wall first thing!

I'm still hemming and hawing a bit on whether or not to get HBO, but, I figure I only have to pay for it for a couple months since the seasons are so short.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Looking forward to the first ep!
 

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Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
 
I thought that they did a good job with the exposition in that clip. So far, the only thing I'm not liking is the look of the woman playing Catelyn.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
I have no idea who anyone except Ned is anymore, but I thoroughly enjoyed the preview and I'm looking into ways to get HBO -- my cable provider doesn't offer it directly.
 

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Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
 
I'm hoping they'll be putting the series on iTunes as it airs. There are a few HBO seasons on there, but I'm not sure if they release each episode as it airs or just the seasons...

Anyway, I don't have cable and I'm not getting that plus an HBO subscription just for one episode, so iTunes or some other legal download is really my only option to watch this series as it airs.
 

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Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
 
I'm not sure what to think about the preview. The archery scene bothered me a bit, particularly Arya shooting the arrow and her family's reaction. I highly doubt Lord Stark would be greatly amused by his children shooting arrows past each others' heads.
 

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Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Juxtapose:
I'm not sure what to think about the preview. The archery scene bothered me a bit, particularly Arya shooting the arrow and her family's reaction. I highly doubt Lord Stark would be greatly amused by his children shooting arrows past each others' heads.

---

When you live near the wall and winter is coming, you just might.
 

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Posted by adenam (Member # 11902) on :
 
NYT review
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Wow that was scathing.

It appears to bear no resemblance to the series that I read, which makes me wonder how well the series is translating to the small screen. Still, the NYT article seems to be in the minority of reviews.

Alas, I'm not going to be able to watch to night since I can't afford HBO yet. I might break my sacred rule about finding other avenues to watch it, but I'll probably either have to wait until I can afford it, or wait until it hits DVD.

Also, that was pretty patronizing toward women. Frankly I'm not sure why women would only be lured to fantasy for the sex, and why men wouldn't be drawn to that even more so. I think the NYT is behind the times if they think girls don't like fantasy for any other reason than sex. Geek girls are well represented. And for that matter, they're totally missing the point if they complain that ASOIAF has no point other than the characters. The characters ARE the point! The plot is an emotional roller coaster at times, sure, but I've yet to meet someone who was more involved in the overarching plots than the characters.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
I rarely get upset or offended about what someone writes, but the comments about women in the article made me a little angry too.
 

---

Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 

quote:

---

“Game of Thrones” is boy fiction patronizingly turned out to reach the population’s other half.

---

quote:

---

I try to stay away from reviewing other people's reviews; "There but for the grace of God" and all that. But two recent pieces on HBO's "Game of Thrones" -- by Troy Patterson of Slate and Ginia Bellafante of The New York Times -- demand a response because they're deeply condescending.

---

quote:

---

Imagine if a review of "Deadwood" had mocked the very idea of a Western series telling morally complex adult stories, or if a review of "The Sopranos" proceeded from the assumption that gangster tales are inherently worthless as popular art. You can't. It's unthinkable.

These reviews are also disappointing because they're penned by critics I like. Patterson is one of the sharpest, funniest TV reviewers out there, and Bellafante is the only one of the New York Times' primary TV critics who doesn't write as if the medium were innately unworthy of her time. Something about the subject matter brought out their inner snobs. No other popular genre would be treated with such knee-jerk distaste by critics for major publications.

---

quote:

---

I was surprised to read Ginia Bellafante's piece in the New York Times, as it manages to do so many wrong things at once. The piece is rife with inaccuracies that could have been avoided by a cursory skimming of the book (or even back cover copy), is openly, even proudly contemptuous of the entire fantasy genre, and -- perhaps worst of all -- is patronizing to women readers.

It's clear that Bellafante was probably the wrong audience for this particular show, but she did not do her due diligence as a critic. If she had, she would have refrained from making remarks such as:

"Given the bizarre climate of the landmass at the center of the bloody disputes -- and the series rejects no opportunity to showcase a beheading or to offer a slashed throat close-up -- you have to wonder what all the fuss is about. We are not talking about Palm Beach."

The series was inspired by the Wars of the Roses in medieval England, which is not a secret (and was mentioned in Laura Miller's recent profile of Martin in the New Yorker), so no, it isn't Palm Beach. People vied for the throne in England even though there was nasty weather. Go figure, but that's history.

The fictitious land of the Seven Kingdoms is not, as per Bellafante, "a universe of dwarfs." The one dwarf, Tyrion Lannister, is genetically disposed to be one -- he is not of a race of dwarfs. This really ought to have been clear, since -- as often happens in our world -- Tyrion's entire family is of average height.

But perhaps the oddest and most noteworthy inaccuracy is the following:

"Game of Thrones is a costume-drama sexual hopscotch... The true perversion, though, is the sense you get that all of this illicitness has been tossed in as a little something for the ladies, out of a justifiable fear, perhaps, that no woman alive would watch otherwise."

Where to begin. I will be surprised if HBO bothered to invent sex scenes for this show, because the books already have lots and lots of sex. If the showrunners have executed a faithful adaptation from page to screen, "illicitness" will run rampant.

But more remarkably, Bellafante is here positing that only men are interested in fantasy.

---

quote:

---

What was up with Clegane's face, though? That's really the best they could do to make him look burned? Clegane is supposed to be horrifically scarred. That was seriously disappointing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlackBlade:
Daenerys' brother apparently has no problem undressing his sister and running his hands over her while checking her out, and then right after that she decides to step into a bath while the water is too hot. Why? No reason.

---

quote:

---

What was the purpose of that scene?

---

quote:

---

He pulls those clothes off and when she attempts to cover herself, I don't know why, she seemed fine with her bro oogling her ...

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quote:

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We wouldn't want our sex to get boring!

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quote:

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That makes me feel like I'm part of what he's doing, I'm benefiting from her rape. It's creepy.

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quote:

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Toss out the scene with Daenery and Viserys chatting while she's about to take a bath, use those five minutes somewhere else, heck maybe have a real scene where she actually protests her part in this crappy plan where she does all the suffering and her brother gets all the benefits, by, you know, actually arguing.

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quote:

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Addendum: It turns out that some of my objections are liberties taken by the TV show with the book's material. Reading the book does assuage some of my gripes, but certainly not all, or even most of them.

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Yeah. There were different choices made here. I think the choices were made to use the visual medium to underscore certain things, in part because the movie director cannot spend paragraphs explaining what characters are thinking or doing, whether overtly or covertly. It's just a different medium with different tools.

But I, too, walked away saying, "Dang. I feel like I know those women much better than I anticipated," as it were.

[ April 19, 2011, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: CT ]
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
From your description, it sounds like the show is absolutely nailing the novel. Sexuality is a dominant aspect of the novels. Raping and pillaging it rampant, though, not always the most important aspect. Sexual conquest and facets of relationships do play a major role in the novels though, and while the boob imagery may not be highly important, knowing that a lot of these sexual relationships are going on, and their specific dynamics, is pretty important down the road.

SPOILERS

If you want some specifics to your complaints.
1. Viserys and Daenerys are the last of the Targaryens. Traditionally. the Targaryens do wed brother to sister to keep the family line pure. There was an exception to the rule with Rhaegar, but by and large it is tradition. Viserys and Daenerys would normally have been wed, but instead she serves as Viesery's bride price to win back what he sees as rightfully his. Women are, for the most part, political pawns and chattel when it comes to marriages for the majority of the families. There are a few exceptions for some particularly strong women who break out of the mold. Judging from your reaction and description, the scene conveyed quite a bit of info.

2. Yes, the scene between Khal Drogo and Daenerys is rather unfeeling, though the book describes it with a fair bit of what might pass for intimacy, but that's the society, and you describe it pretty well based on what's in the book. Daenerys needs to NOT argue with Viserys because at this point she's still just a child, and feminism as you're perhaps trying to apply it simply doesn't exist in this world. However, that doesn't mean things will always stay this way. It's a starting point.

3. As for Jaime and Cersei, no, incest is NOT s staple of the society. Theirs is a deeply forbidden relationship, not only because she is married to Robert.

I think a lot of your problems will evaporate as the characters grow and evolve, but I'm beginning to see how things might get lost in translation from the books to the show. I'm planning to watch it tomorrow night, then I'll give my two cents.
 

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Posted by CT (Member # 8342) on :
 
Lythawn, I think I saw more breasts in that hour than I did in any given week of OB-Gyne clinic.

It's ... striking.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
As to the too-hot bath thing - not only do I agree with CT that she is trying to get rid of hmi touching her, but the Targaryens have always had a connection to fire and this may be one way of showing that.

Though I know GRRM has said that Dany is not immune to fire, this is one way of visually showing that link to fire and heat that is associated with Dany's line.

SPOILERS
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If the first season follows book one, then we can presume it ends with her hatching her dragon eggs. So, for the people who have not read the books, this may be subtle hint leading up to that event that helps explain why the fire doesn't kill her.
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END SPOILERS
 

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Posted by CT (Member # 8342) on :
 
I had forgotten that, Belle!
 

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Posted by Ghost of Xavier (Member # 2852) on :
 
That sounds likely Belle.

My own cross-post...

------------------------------------------

Starting with some brief positive comments:

The wall and everything north of it was awesome, even with the changes from the book.

The prologue was awesome, even if I desperately wanted to see the swordfight with the Other.

Tyrion, Ned, Brandon, and Arya were absolutely perfectly cast I thought.

The heartswood scene looked just like a poster I own, which is either an interesting coincidence or a great tribute.

Overall I liked it, and I'll probably watch it again at least one more time before next week.


Now some things I am grumpy about:

They cut all of Dany's character growth. Her ride on her silver horse was something of a defining moment for her breaking free from her brother and proving herself to her husband. "Tell Khal Drogo he has given me the wind". She also ended up giving herself to Drogo freely with her "yes" after all the "no". As it was shown in the show it was basically rape, while in the book this scene actually showed Drogo to be pretty decent guy to Dany. Cutting these two things meant she didn't actually grow at all in the episode.

Now I was talking to Niki about this, and I'm thinking they are just showing her weak longer in the show, since you don't have time to see how weak she was before these scenes in the accelerated format. Still, seeing my favorite scenes neutered like that was painful. They also didn't show the abuse her brother subjected her to, only hinted about it.

Also Theon telling Jon he gets the albino/runt was the exact opposite of the scene in the book. In the book this is Jon being defiant and cocky, not being passive and weak.

Last was that Catelyn in the book was the one who convinced Ned he had to say yes to the offer. She was the one who correctly read the politics and knew that saying no would make an enemy of the king. Instead they gave Luwin her arguments and had her argue against what the same character said in the book. Was pretty jarring to me. Again this changed the nature of the character. She's not the politically savvy lady of the house, she's the weak and needy housewife.

So mostly the things I didn't like were scenes that gave the opposite effect as the scene from the book. I don't mind changes, but changes that pull a 180 in characterization are hard for me to stomach.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
Belle: My brother mentioned that about the eggs, the bath makes more sense, with that sort of background information. It's true the show is going to try to cater to some degree to those who have already read the books, dropping subtle nods and hints. The rest of us should just be glad we're being let in at all.
 

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Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
 
I am liking it so far. I just have two problems, I agree completely that it would have been much more compelling to see Danerys acceptance and perhaps even love for her new husband.

Second, I don't really like the opening credits. It feels steampunk to me, which clashes with the story. Minor quibble I know.

I love Tyrian, he is going to be lots of fun to watch and Sean Bean is perfect as Ned.
 

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Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
 
I might be the only person alive who was fine with the Dany/Drogo scene. Well, fine isn't the right word. Shocked and horrified might be more accurate. It was brutally powerful precisely because, as someone who read the books multiple times, I wasn't expecting it. It's very possible Dany's "yes" will be worked in later. I hope so. But frankly, doing it this way fits the pacing of TV much better. If they blow right past Dany's helplessness, it cheapens her later growth.

Basically, HBO has told those familiar with the series that although we know the large events will happen, we do not know how they will happen. This kind of thing is exactly why people like Martin in the first place. This is a subtle nod to the author in a way I think he'd appreciate.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
He's been heavily involved with the series, so I think it's likely he does appreciate it.
 

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Posted by Ghost of Xavier (Member # 2852) on :
 

quote:

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He's been heavily involved with the series, so I think it's likely he does appreciate it.

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Yeah, though I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for the more "heated discussions" he references in his blog between him and the show runners.

I do think you are correct, Juxtapose, in that the changes were due to the necessity of TV pacing. In the book we got to spend a lot of time in her head to see just how under her brother's thumb she was, while on TV they need to establish her weakness before the growth is meaningful.

I do wish they'd have been able to do so without cutting perhaps my favorite Dany scene (the horse ride), but I'll live .
 

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Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
 
I wouldn't lose hope that it'll show up later.
 

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Posted by Ghost of Xavier (Member # 2852) on :
 
Very true. I definitely don't want to judge their choices too harshly before I see the results.

Lucky for them, barring something like a catastrophic injury, I'm not going to miss a single episode .
 

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Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
 
They could literally still just show an extension of the scene in the first episode.

And as much as I love maps, the opening is pretty damn lame.

Anywho, anyone wanna do a Game of Thrones podcast?
 

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Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 
****Spoilers****


I also hated the Dany/Drogo scene. Reading you guys' responses I guess I can see why they chose to do it this way. But in the book, we totally understood why Dany came to love Drogo. He was very good to her. I have a much harder time believing that she could fall so deeply in love with him (her Sun and Stars) when he has no problem raping her. I hope umberhulk is right and it was a fakeout.

While I love Lena Headey, I don't think she's the right fit for Cersei. Lena Headey, in all her roles including this one, comes across as a person who is tough, reserved, and deep. While Cersei is certainly tough and complex, she's not supposed to appear that way. She's supposed to come across as a stereotypical gorgeous blond who's unspeakably charming. Lena Headey can certainly handle the complex aspects of Cersei, but I have less faith in her portrayal of Cersei's more duplicitous face.
 

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Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
 
Yeah, I can see a writer thinking the end of that scene as an attention grabber for the second episode.

And I think the end of that scene says more about Drogo than Dany, actually. Because he asks. And, well, thats part of how Dany comes to love him.
 

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Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
 
HBO has ordered a 2nd season.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Well to be fair even if in the show it is as it appears, and Drogo did basically rape his weeping bride on the grass...I could still see how she could come to love him and even call him by that name.

Love being a subjective thing, and Dany coming from a, well, pretty awful background that's going to be poking her on the shoulder going, "Hey, hey, it's me, your brother! Who's going to be constantly pointing out you're an object to me and I despise you except for your usefulness to me, personally!" And her being raised not just with the expectation that love in marriage will happen, but that gentle lovemaking will happen...anyway. You get my drift. I'm not saying it will happen or that it should. Just that, from a storytelling standpoint, it could still and remain plausible.

But I think the fake-out is a possibility...either that or they do some serious fleshing out of both Dany and Drogo as time passes. There's some work to be done there, to get things closer to the source material, I think-not that I didn't think the first episode was super-rad.

As for Cersei...well, it's really too soon to tell for her, I think. We haven't seen her engage in any of her machinations, or seen her do so while up against any actual clever schemers (notably her brother, or Littlefinger). So right now what I got from her was just a 'I'm tough, I really don't like my husband - with good reason - and don't f@#k with me, peasant.' That seems pretty appropriate for where things stand so far in the show.

I think they hit the Stark family very, very nicely. One thing that was puzzling to me: if they were going to have so much gratuitous nudity, why not have some nudity of Cat (or is it Kat? I can't remember) in front of their Maester and Ned, with that very appropriate and adult line along the lines of, "I've born you five children, this is serious business, and I don't have time to deal with that nonsense," when there was a scandalous response to her getting out from under the covers nekkid in front of her husband and the Maester. Instead we get lots of prostitutes, some Dothraki, and Dany. That struck me as strange, that choice being made. Perhaps it was a behind-the-scenes actress choice? Or something.

I like Jaime so far. Lots of possibility there. Tyrion too, but like Cersei it's really too soon to tell how well he'll do with the heavier stuff.
 

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Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
 

quote:

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Instead we get lots of prostitutes...

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quote:

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Originally posted by alasdefuego:
One question I have after watching episode 1 is how did the night watch deserter crossed the wall if all the openings to the outside are secured.

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Originally posted by jebus202:
People like nudity, it brings in viewers. So what's the beef?

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I had no beef. The level was just more than I expected. In this case, I intended that to be a value-neutral observation.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
I don't have beef, except that it *might* end up being off-putting to some viewers and make the show less popular to a wider audience for a minimal storytelling gain.

Well, I do have a beef with the decision to omit the Cat nudity scene but include extra nudity scenes (or at least implied nudity scenes-I don't recall the book well enough to say for sure if they were in it), because I feel the Cat scene was pretty important in showing what sort of person she was.
 

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Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
 
Cats ugly. Who wants to see that?
 

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Posted by CT (Member # 8342) on :
 
The layers of humour just go on and on.


 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
Well the Dany nude scenes, and the scene with Cersei and Jaime, were absolutely in the book (actually I think in the book Jaime and Cersei were even more naked). The only new nudity was the scene with Tyrion.

Overall, I see what you're saying Rakeesh, but on the other hand, if the show ends up being faithful to the books re: nudity/sex then there will still be an awful lot of both in the future of the show. May not be a bad idea to signal to viewers now that it's a show that doesn't balk from showing that sort of thing.

*book spoiler warning*

I mean, just off the top of my head we see, in the novels, explicit nudity and sex involving: Tyrion and Shae, Jon and Ygritte, Theon and a nameless girl, Dany and Drogo, Dany and her handmaidens, Jaime and Cersei, Arianne and Arys, Sam and Gilly... and I'm positive there are plenty more I'm forgetting. The books are pretty rife with explicit sex and nudity, all things considered. Just as explicit as they are with violence and savagery.
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by umberhulk:
That Tyrion scene established a friendship between Tyrion and Jaime, and it sold me on that actor pretty quick. I think he's awesome.

Plus I dunno, it felt right to give Tyrion a chunk of screen time. Instead of just having the scene with Jon.

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quote:

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Overall, I see what you're saying Rakeesh, but on the other hand, if the show ends up being faithful to the books re: nudity/sex then there will still be an awful lot of both in the future of the show. May not be a bad idea to signal to viewers now that it's a show that doesn't balk from showing that sort of thing.

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Sure, but my beef (and though I'm talking about this, it's not a huge complaint or even a substantial complaint from me) is that again, if they're going to have nudity up front to showcase that the show isn't going to be shy about it, why not include some of the nudity from a scene that is particularly important to character development?

--------

Man, Catelyn Stark is far from ugly. `nuff said.
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
Not sure if I'd call her ugly, but I certainly thought she'd be far prettier.

*Spoiler for Books*

She is kind of the Helen of Troy in all this. Littlefinger starts this war largely based on his being rejected by Cat years ago.

I wouldn't expect him to spend his whole life carrying a torch for her.

*End spoiler*

Probably my least favorite casting choice.

I think the actress for the pilot had the right look.

I agree that her being nude in that scene was important for her character, but having Ned and her having sex in that scene was perhaps even more important. The couple chatting chastely in bed didn't have the same effect. Its one of the only "healthy" sex scenes in the whole book.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Not everyone has to look like a movie star, you know.
 

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Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
 
The NY Times reviewer who posted the awful review did a follow-up note. Basically, she's still clueless.

link
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 

quote:

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Not everyone has to look like a movie star, you know. [Big Grin]

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But those who are playing characters whose beauty is something of a plot point maybe should be attractive .
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Now I will say that she isn't as classically beautiful as I expected her to be from the books. Didn't quite fit my hazy image, y'know? So I see where you're coming from there, Xavier. On the other hand, she has been in the North for quite some time and while she's not exactly been slumming it, Winterfell isn't King's Landing and she is five kids further along in life with a harder piece of living (or at least, less easy) than other highborn women in ASoI&F would have seen elsewhere in the Kingdoms. So in that respect, it fits.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Great interview with GRRM about the show, and it's appeal.
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Rakeesh:

quote:

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Overall, I see what you're saying Rakeesh, but on the other hand, if the show ends up being faithful to the books re: nudity/sex then there will still be an awful lot of both in the future of the show. May not be a bad idea to signal to viewers now that it's a show that doesn't balk from showing that sort of thing.

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Sure, but my beef (and though I'm talking about this, it's not a huge complaint or even a substantial complaint from me) is that again, if they're going to have nudity up front to showcase that the show isn't going to be shy about it, why not include some of the nudity from a scene that is particularly important to character development?

--------

Man, Catelyn Stark is far from ugly. `nuff said.

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Cat strikes me as the kind of woman who would have been gorgeous 20 years ago and has still managed to maintain some of that, while adding a LOT of wisdom and dignity. If she displays the same sort of character and strength in the show that she did in the book, I can see why a Littlefinger would go to war over her.

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quote:

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She is kind of the Helen of Troy in all this. Littlefinger starts this war largely based on his being rejected by Cat years ago.

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I don't know that Littlefinger starts the war(s), or that they're over Cat specifically. Certainly Cat's rejection of him hit him quite hard (understatement), and was really formative in his life...but the way I view him, that set him up as, "I'm in this for me now-other people are secondary. I still like Cat though...maybe." I'm not really clear if he's still carrying a torch for her in the sense that he loves her, or is saving her for some vengeance further down the line.

Anyway, I don't think all of the wars that have transpired can be laid at his door-he's certainly made `em worse and if he'd tried to mitigate instead of add fuel things would've been much better, but this is a world with Jaime and Cersei and the Targaryens across the Narrow Sea and the Baratheons in it.
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
*** Spoilers for books ***

It's interesting to think about what would have happened if not for Littlefinger's meddling.

Stannis and Jon Arryn knew about the kids' parentage, and surely were going to reveal that info to Robert. At this point I don't think Jaime and Cersei knew what those two were brewing, though I could be wrong. I wonder if Varys would have told them, given his own mysterious motives.

If Stannis and Jon did manage to tell Robert, I don't think anything would have stopped the King's Landing Lannisters from getting the axe, unless they somehow escaped the city.

Then the question is whether Tywin goes to war. If he did, the whole rest of the seven kingdoms would be against him. With what happened to the Greyjoy's just a few years prior, not a smart idea.

If not for the war of five kings, I'm sure Varys would have cooked up something else to weaken the realm for the Targaryen invasion. I'm guessing he'd have involved house Tyrell in some way such that Lannister didn't stand alone against Baratheon/Stark/Tully/Arryn.

[ April 20, 2011, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
*continued spoilers*

Varys does have clear motives, though: His goal was to destabilize the regime so that the Targaryens would have an opportunity when they return. I recall him saying something to that effect in Storm of Swords, near the end?

Edit: Wait, you mention that. But yeah, I figure it would be a very different ballgame, but there might still be a war.

Of course, technically, it was Cat that started the war by kidnapping Tyrion. Sigh.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
* More book spoilers *

Varys already had the Martells (the no-longer-possible marriage contract between Arianne and Viserys), so the Lannisters wouldn't have been alone against the Targaryens. Add in the Tyrells, and it would have been a North-South classic.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
If I'm remembering Varys properly, his primary motive for supporting the Targaryens was because the Baratheons and Lannisters - those who would actually be doing the ruling, anyway - were all so terrible at ruling, not because of any particular loyalty to House Targaryen. That was the impression of him I got, anyway-his duty was to the realm, and the best bet for a monarch for the realm was Dany Targaryen, eventually. It might've been Ned Stark but he was, well, too unwise to be trusted.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
What a King he would have made, though.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
I actually think he would've made a pretty bad king. Littlefinger, for example, told him repeatedly not to trust him and to expect duplicity from him. Varys said many of the same sorts of things. He approached Cersei with straightforward threats. He would've been a bad king.
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
Ned could have been a fantastic King. But getting to the throne is something he could never have done.

There's no inherent reason a king has to be a duplicitous two-faced master of intrigue. Kings can be honorable and just and stern. But to survive as that type of king they need to have the trust and loyalty of most or all of the military might in the kingdom (not to mention, they would need to actually have an undisputed right to the throne).

So basically yes, Ned could never have taken the throne and kept it in the circumstance he was in. But that's not to say he couldn't, in theory, have made a good king.
 

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Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
 
*still book spoilers*


He would have been a bad king in the sense that all of the horrible people he would have been surrounded with would chew him up and spit him up (as it so happened).

He would, however, have been fair and just and, etc. if allowed to rule in peace. That's honestly the problem with politics in general (talking real life here). Most of the people who have what it takes to make it in the political world aren't terribly nice or dedicated to the common good. They're there for their own gain. Meanwhile, people who might actually be able to make good decisions and govern fairly and properly wouldn't be able to make it unscathed through an election of any real importance.
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
Ginol, my point is just that, if he had the ancestral right and military might to back him up, he could have ruled despite being surrounded by horrible people. He ruled the North well for almost twenty years, despite having liegemen like Roose Bolton. Because Bolton couldn't effectively remove him, and he knew it.

Again, there's no way he could have taken the Iron Throne, we're in total agreement there. I'm just saying, he could still have been a good king, and not necessarily just "in peace."
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
I suppose Ned could've been a fantastic King in some theoretical version of the fictitious world known as the Seven Kingdoms. So too could Robb Stark for that matter. But...kings are responsible for more than abstract ideals, they're responsible for the actual lives and welfare of their people.

So yes, they do have to have some mastery of intrigue and the ability to wear two or more faces, at least to some extent. Because to lack those abilities means you're going to be very vulnerable to those who do have `em-and those are just who you gotta watch out for in the first place.

Takes more than just dominance over the military too. 'King' is rarely a strictly or even primarily military role, and it's certainly not in the case of the Seven Kingdoms.

quote:

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He would have been a bad king in the sense that all of the horrible people he would have been surrounded with would chew him up and spit him up (as it so happened).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
How does an honorable man defeat those not constrained by that same honor?

The world wants to know.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Well, yes-this is rather like saying, "He would've been a bad king because he would've been a bad king." One of the requisites for a good king is that if there are horrible people around that are going to try and chew you up and spit you out, you've got to be able to beat `em. If you can't do it, you aren't good-king-material. It doesn't matter how carefully I study a cookbook, I can't make a bitchin' meal without the right kind of food.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I think Westeros is its own character. It's no accident that Martin names the area around The Twins, "The Neck." Everything above The Neck, Stark's north, is the brains of the operation. Everything below it is the body, where passions rule, especially in the nether regions where Sunspear is, and everything seems to be about heat and passion.

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quote:

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I understand what you're saying. Realistically, sure, you have to be able to fight off your enemies and keep them from usurping your power. Unfortunately, the qualities that allow one to do that are also, in my opinion, qualities that prevent someone from truly governing from the perspective that they're the servant of the people from than the master.

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quote:

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Theoretically, if Ned had become king instead of Robert after the rebellion, most of the people in King's Landing that Ned would have had to worry about wouldn't have been there at all.

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quote:

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Edit: I think Ned would have made a fantastic King, but of the North, not the entire seven kingdoms.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kwea:
Hell.....out of all of them, only Jon Snow is where he fits, and where he can do the most good ....so far at least.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carrie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kwea:
Hell.....out of all of them, only Jon Snow is where he fits, and where he can do the most good ....so far at least.

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I have to say, I'm pretty sure Sansa is also where she fits best. Or at least in the one place where character growth is possible.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rakeesh:
[QB] The scene with Tyrion in the episode seemed pretty straightforward to me. The wanted to Show Tyrion Likes Prostitutes. A Lot.

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quote:

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Man, I dislike that as a culture we're having a meta conversation about boobs. Just one of our hang-ups I guess, collectively.

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Obviously we as a culture don't have hang ups about boobs when we can praise a show that has an abundance of them. What do you find so dis-likable about the objections I raised?
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
BTW today's episode was really really good.
 

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Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
 
I need to see it so bad. Tyrion at the wall and petyr!
 

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Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
 
I can't think of any complaints this time around. The things they changed (and there were plenty) were quite acceptable to me .

(This is Xavier on Valentine's laptop)
 

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Posted by manji (Member # 11600) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:

quote:

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Man, I dislike that as a culture we're having a meta conversation about boobs. Just one of our hang-ups I guess, collectively.

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Obviously we as a culture don't have hang ups about boobs when we can praise a show that has an abundance of them. What do you find so dis-likable about the objections I raised? [/QB]

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I thought this was funny. And apropos. A little bit.

http://satwcomic.com/anything-but-that
 

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Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
 
Saw it. Was awesome.
 

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Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
 
Great episode. Man I love Tyrian. That guy plays him perfectly. I can't wait for the s*%t to really hit the fan.
 

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Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
 
Doesn't he though? The girl who plays Arya does so perfectly as well. With the exception of the way they continued to defang Catelyn, I loved the second episode. It was enough to tip me from "well, now my curiosity as to how they'll handle element X or Y is sated, so there's probably no need to continue watching, given that I already know the story" to "damn it! I don't want to wait until next week!"
 

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Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
 
Arya is being done really well, but while this Arya is super boyish and headstrong, the book Arya felt more mean than the show version. She was little bit bully. I don't really see that. But it doesn't matter.

And yeah, the scene between Cat and Jon was subdued, but whatever, I was never sure I liked Cat that much.
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
My cast ratings so far:

Excellent:
Arya
Brandon
Tyrion
Ned
Robert
Ser Jorah

Quite Acceptable:
Jon
Jaime
Cersei
Viserys
Joffrey

Jury is still out:
Dany
Sansa
Robb
Sansa
Drogo
Luwin
Sandor

Scatching my head over:
Catelyn (good actress, but other factors)
Theon

[ April 25, 2011, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
 

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Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
 
I'd knock Jaime and Jorah up. And bring Brandon down. Otherwise, I agree.

Also, put Joffrey in the second tier. Visceris at top.

I hope Mance Rayder is done well, but thats way down the road.

(Also, I havent read Feast yet, so I dont officially know what happens to him)
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
I added Joffrey and Viserys, I knew I was forgetting some peeps.

I decided I agree with you about Ser Jorah. I tried to think of how he could possibly play him better, and I couldn't. He's probably the strongest actor in the Dany plot.

I think I rate Brandon so high because he looks so much like the Bran in my head. He hasn't actually had to do much acting yet, so he may be demoted.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lyrhawn:

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Originally posted by Carrie:

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Originally posted by Kwea:
Hell.....out of all of them, only Jon Snow is where he fits, and where he can do the most good ....so far at least.

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I have to say, I'm pretty sure Sansa is also where she fits best. Or at least in the one place where character growth is possible.

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Character growth? Sansa?

Sigh.

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Originally posted by Amanecer:
I was initially pretty upset by the Dany/Drogo dynamic from the first episode, but with this new episode, I feel like I get where they're going with it. In the books, Drogo provided a shelter that allowed Dany to come in to herself and become so powerful. But all of that required nuance and time that would be hard to do justice to in the show. So in the show, they're speeding up Dany's growth and making her demand and earn Drogo's affection. Drogo becomes tender *because* of Dany's strength rather than the other way around. I could see this working.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carrie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lyrhawn:

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Originally posted by Carrie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kwea:
Hell.....out of all of them, only Jon Snow is where he fits, and where he can do the most good ....so far at least.

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I have to say, I'm pretty sure Sansa is also where she fits best. Or at least in the one place where character growth is possible.

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Character growth? Sansa?

Sigh.

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Unless I'm horribly misremembering the books, Sansa's one of two Stark children (not including Jon) who actually has undergone any character growth. Bran has developed, owing to his paralysis and subsequent ability to possess the masses, and Sansa has grown from the idealistic girl to someone who realizes that pretty people may not be good, while the unattractive can be helpful. Robb certainly didn't develop at all, and we haven't seen Rickon (who, quite frankly, can't help but develop, since he was three last time we read about him), and Arya is pretty much exactly the same, just in a different place.

So sue me. I find Sansa/Alayne interesting, and I do believe it represents character growth. (I'm also 99% confident I'd say this while sober - I needed lots of beer to get through and past the scene with Lady and Ned tonight.)

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Sansa is the most flat, boring character of the entire series until Feast. She experiences ZERO character growth until the fourth book. She's the same stupid, naive, foolish girl living in a delusional fantasyland. The Alayne/Sansa plot is interesting, though slow as molasses in terms of character development, but yes, it is interesting. It just took FOREVER to get there.

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I disagree. Her time with Joffrey, and then with Tyrion/Sandor changed her quite a bit. I have a poster on my wall of her building the snow Winterfell, which was the third book. She was a completely different girl at that point than the one who started the books.

It is a polite disagreement though .
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
It was two steps forward and three steps back with her every step of the way. Don't get me wrong, I WANT to like Sansa. I really do. The blog I wrote about ASOIAF had at least one mention of Sanasa per post, most of them praying for rain when it comes to Sansa. And every time they teased us with some growth, it was always matched by her doing two or three stupid childish things to negate it. Her changes were always reactionary rather than evolutionary. I question how much she actually learned and grew, and how much of it was simply responding to direct stimuli but without lasting changes. Even after two or three books of being mistreated, she was STILL waiting for a knight in shining armor to come rescue her. She just doesn't get it, and she didn't start to get it until Feast.

Maybe I'll change my mind when I go back and reread the whole thing, but I think she's insufferable for the first few thousand pages.

I think why she's so disappointing to me is that almost all of the other female characters are utterly fascinating and complex (Dany took a while to get going, but she really took off after that). Sansa is a big ball of character development potential. And I feel like with the exception of a few teases, she still refuses to open her eyes and go with it, again, until Feast, where while slow, she IS starting to do some interesting things.

To each his own though. If you like Sansa, more power to you. It's a complex enough book for two people to see the same character differently.
 

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Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
 
I like Sansa more than Caetlyn sorta.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Rakeesh:
The scene with Tyrion in the episode seemed pretty straightforward to me. The wanted to Show Tyrion Likes Prostitutes. A Lot. (More than might be expected of an ordinary nobleman-which is sort of true of Tyrion in the books, because without giving spoilers there are some not inconsiderable reasons aside from the obvious he seeks out affection among prostitutes and not elsewhere) Also that he has a good, slightly edged teasing relationship with his brother Jaime.

Man, I dislike that as a culture we're having a meta conversation about boobs. Just one of our hang-ups I guess, collectively. I just continually come back, in my head, to the Cat scene that was omitted. It really portrayed Catelyn Stark as a woman who Gets S@#t Done when the metal hits the meat, all in one neat package, but for now that is still implied.

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I think that scene showed a lot more than just boobs. We got an idea how little Tyrion likes his father, and how little he cares for propriety, how much he likes women and how they have been a way to act out against his family, and an idea how self confident he is despite his challenges. We got a glimpse into his relationship with Jamie, and how he "looks after" Tyrion...

We also got a glimpse into what it means to be a southern lord vs a northern one.


That's a lot more than gratuitous boob shots.......although it was that as well, of course.
 

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Posted by ScottF (Member # 9356) on :
 
I read the books quite a while ago so watching the first two episodes has been more "oh yeah, I remember that..." than a critique of faithfulness to Martin.

In general, HBO just does these things right. The production value, casting, scripts - they're all usually on another level.

That said, I would chime in on some of the earlier comments on the graphic nudity and sex. This is just part of HBO's DNA. Because they can, they do. Can anyone really tell me that you couldn't convey the same trapped, humiliating despair that Dany felt in the tent scene without the 15 seconds of soft porn? Really?

I guess you just take the good, the bad and the gratuitous and be thankful that the general quality level is as high as it is.
 

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Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
 
I would love to watch these...but I had all my premium channels turned off a long time ago to save money...and to pay $15 a month extra...for a show that is too sexually explicit to watch with my wife in the room is just not going to happen...oh well.
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
I would love to watch these...but I had all my premium channels turned off a long time ago to save money...and to pay $15 a month extra...for a show that is too sexually explicit to watch with my wife in the room is just not going to happen...oh well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
Joy to the world, the Dance had come...

Etc. Anyway, I shall be the first to ask: When is Winds gonna be done already?!

*grin*

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I'd say to download it, but I look at premium channels a little bit differently than normal cable or local channels. Since there are no ads on HBO they really have no income other than their subscriber base.

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My memory of the gay relationship was that it was more subtle. It was there, but it wasn't like in center stage.

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quote:

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Renley had a thing for Margaery...

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quote:

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and The Knight of Flowers came across as a ladies man to me.

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quote:

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This happens with a lot of scenes. Dany and Drogo's night by the river under the stars, one of the most touching scenes from the book where Drogo first comes to love Dany, gets demoted to some weird softcore porn scene in the tent. They've already spent many valuable minutes showing Littlefinger and Varys talk, or long drawn out scenes of the men talking to their prostitutes/boyfriend, but they either omit or rush through a lot of the scenes that would actually make you care for these people.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Xavier:

quote:

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Renley had a thing for Margaery...

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So much so that she was a virgin well after her wedding to him, eh?

quote:

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and The Knight of Flowers came across as a ladies man to me.

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Heh.

There's an exchange in book 3 (with Loras and Jaime) that makes it obvious. Before then you'd need to be paying pretty close attention.

It's been confirmed by Martin, IRRC.

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quote:

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That may be, but I think you are confused. Renley married Margaery the day Stannis showed up. He was killed before he was able to consumate.

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Its been a few years since I read A Clash of Kings, but your timeline here seems to be a bit off. When Catelyn shows up (ACOK 341) it seems the two are already married. Cat refers to her as "his young queen".

I don't believe they got married at Bitterbridge (where the tourney took place). They were married sometime before they set out on the march. The alliance with Tyrell was sealed with their marriage, before they set out. The two were married, and then Renly spends several weeks farting around in the south slowly marching and staging the tourney where Cat runs into them.

When she is to marry Joffrey later, I vaguely remember some characters are skeptical about her virginity claims.

So I'm sorry, but as far as I can tell it is you that is confused.

Edit: Though if you have a page reference that says otherwise, I'm all ears. Even if this one particular piece of evidence doesn't hold weight, there is quite a bit else that makes it crystal clear. Just keep reading .

[ May 16, 2011, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
 

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Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
 
I believe you, I guess I just missed it.

I figured Stannis was just because he had no heir and people questioned why he never seemed to spend time with his wife. Someone even said something to the effect of "Stannis hears the drums of battle when he goes to his bed chambers" or something to that effect.

But...wow. Renley eh? Anyone else I should know about? I'm about 50 pages into the third book. I usually stay away from Fantasy, but after reading the first two books of the Kingkiller Chronicles and reading these, I don't know why I don't read more fantasy.
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 

quote:

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Anyone else I should know about?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Thanks...must have slipped loose.

Anyone else disappointed by the Eyrie? Instead of being a mountain top, it was like a giant column of rock.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Geraine:
Wait what? I don't remember Renley and The Knight of Flowers that way.

Renley had a thing for Margaery and The Knight of Flowers came across as a ladies man to me.

Do you remember where it alluded to this relationship in the first two books? I just started the third book so I don't know if it will delve into it later.

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quote:

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Originally posted by aeolusdallas:

quote:

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Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Thanks...must have slipped loose.

Anyone else disappointed by the Eyrie? Instead of being a mountain top, it was like a giant column of rock.

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It's at the top of a huge mountain it's just that the mountain has been hollowed out. I for one think it looks fantastic.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
I think one thing is clear, the books imply a gay relationship without ever saying for sure, or showing it.

The series shows it in graphic detail. Quite different.

It was a bit of a shock to me personally, but I read the series a while back so I likely forgot the implications.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Geraine:

quote:

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Originally posted by aeolusdallas:

quote:

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Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Thanks...must have slipped loose.

Anyone else disappointed by the Eyrie? Instead of being a mountain top, it was like a giant column of rock.

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It's at the top of a huge mountain it's just that the mountain has been hollowed out. I for one think it looks fantastic.

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Well, I was let down as well by it. In the book Caitlyn had to climb for a very long time and had to pass by three towers on her way up. The TV show made it look like there was just a long bridge.

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Find the picture online. It's a very long very narrow bridge that goes to the base of the mountain then spirals way up one of the pillars. She would have had to climb for a very long time.

EDIT http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6720/gameofthroness01e05thew.jpg
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I don't particularly care for that. The Eyrie in the book sounded so much more forbidding, desolate, and for that matter, impregnable. That's just a long causeway. That looks a lot more like what The Twins look like in my imagination. Just add a tower.
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
I think tonight's episode was the best yet. Really, pretty much all of them have been better than the one before it .

(cross-posted)
 

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Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
 
Tyrion, as usual, stole the show. Although this time he had some great competition from Ned, Dany, and Khal Drogo.
 

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Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
 
And that creepy kid. And Arya bickering with Sansa, looking so awesomely annoyed.
 

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Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
 
Episode 7 has already been online for a few days because it was on HBO Go.

Spoiler

Extra scenes involving Jaime and Tywin, then Peter training whore is deception. They were good. Dany's scenes were good. Her hair is cool. The chick playing the wildling woman who accompanies Bran is the girl who plays Tonks in HP. And shes awesome. No Tyrion/Arya makes me sad. And Jon's actor is still really average.

And man do I want to punch Cersei.
 

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Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
 
I'm okay with Jon, at first I wasn't, but I've warmed to him okay. What ruffles my feathers is how little and how wrong they have Jon's direwolf Ghost. He barely shows up, and when he does, he's barking or growling...in the book he never makes a single sound...but is always there with Jon, making his presence felt, almost like another major character in the book.

I was also disappointed with Tywin, he seemed much to "man of the people", skinning a deer (symbolism much?) and getting his hands bloody in the cold. I could be remembering wrong, as it has been awhile, but I thought he was the epitome of high class superiority, not the kind who would get their hands dirty with "servant work".
 

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Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
 
Eh, I kind of liked that. He's also self sufficient and pragmatic. And he does it in uh Tywin-like fashion. Remeber, Tywin hated his father for generally being lazy and incompetent. Skinning a deer in his free time kind of makes sense. I can kind of imagine him seething in childhood and focusing on chores. And really, is he actionally just gonna sit in a fancy chair all day?

I agree about the wolves. Also, something that bothered me a couple episodes ago, is that Tyrion never tries to tell Caetlyn what a douche Petyr really is. Which would set up all the political play and suspicions in the second season.
 

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