This is topic atheist/humanist billboard suggestions needed! in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Hey all, I'm looking for some suggestions. I'm on the steering committee for a local humanist group and we're getting a grant to put up a billboard in a few months. The organization giving the grant is not dictating what will be put on the billboard in any way, but there are some stipulations. The grant is being given because there are three "freethought" groups in the area, one being us, one being a freethought society, and another being a recovering from religion group.

So while we can decide to put whatever we want on the billboard, the "we" encompasses more than just our own group. The head of the recovering from religion group is part of our group as well, and the freethought group is pretty small, so our organization will probably wield the most influence on what this billboard ends up being. I really don't want to see this billboard go up and be something inflammatory or derogatory towards religion, but it DOES need to be something that catches people's interest and represents broader interests than just a humanist group, and so I'm looking for suggestions.

I know there have been billboard campaigns in other parts of the country. I remember around christmas time they had "Why believe in god? Be good for goodness sake." and I've seen "Don't believe in God? You're not alone."

Anyone have any cool billboard ideas?
 
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
Not sure it's relevant to what you're trying to say, but I'm partial to:

"One Nation, Indivisible
- Minister Francis Bellamy, 1892"
 
Posted by Mucous (Member # 12331) on :
 
Well, the Toronto did the standard “There’s probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life” on the TTC.
http://atheistbus.ca/tag/ttc/

The "One Nation, Indivisible" one is interesting but was vandalised
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/evangelicals-respond-nation-billboards-nc/story?id=11197974
 
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
Perhaps a better way to word it would be:

' In 1892, minister Francis Bellamy wrote "One Nation, Indivisible." '

With a tagline along the lines of "X% of Americans do not believe in God" (For some reason the "don't believe in God? You are not alone" version bothers me slightly.)
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
"Secular humanism: We believe in people." (Maybe add: "Look what they can do.") with a background of some outstanding examples of human achievement, like maybe the moon landing, DNA, or something.
 
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
Ooh, I like MrSquicky's.
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
Anything that stresses morality.

Be your own moral compass.
Is it better to be good because it is the right thing to do, or because I higher being tells you to?
 
Posted by Mucous (Member # 12331) on :
 
"Don't believe in God? You are not alone" bothers me a bit too, sounds similar to a support ad for herpes or something.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Mucous, I'm not a big fan of of that "there's probably no god" one. Particularly because of the second half.

To give you guys an idea, here's the mission statement of our group:

"Humanism is a non theistic philosophy that affirms our ability and responsibility to lead meaningful and ethical lives. We promote; human rights, civil liberties, the scientific method, and the democratic process in an open secular and humane society. Lehigh Valley Humanists provides education, support, & outreach about Humanism in an effort to build a vibrant community based around a positive ethical lifestance."

Freethought societies seem to be more of an explicitly atheistic group, with a bit more of an anti religion bent.

The recovering from religion group is what it sounds like, a support group.
 
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I think MrSquicky's is particularly good because it is both positive and a catchy soundbyte. I think the ideal "impressive thing that humans did" would ideally be something genuinely "good" as opposed to just "impressive."
 
Posted by Mucous (Member # 12331) on :
 
Strider: The second half? I would have guessed that the first half would be more of an issue. What, are you pro-worry? (j/k)
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Here in DC they have, "Be Good For Goodness' Sake."
 
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
 
If it was near Christmas, you could go with "Be good for goodness sake." I like Mr. Squicky's suggestion. I am not atheist but the message I think atheists most need to inject into American consciousness is the idea that you can be good and an atheist. I think pushing that idea would result in the most positive change in American discourse and in some ways might be the easiest for people to accept. If atheists do want to convince people to stop believing in God, this is also a good first step because if you believe that the only way you can be a good person is to believe in God, you have a lot invested in keeping your faith (at least publically). Getting rid of that idea allows people to more freely question. Maybe something like No religion owns morality.

ETA: oops ScottR beat me to it. Guess I should have refreshed before I posted.
 
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
Mucous, I don't like the idea of an atheistic message to be "atheists don't worry about anything and are hedonistic," which is what I think the second half of your suggestion would be interpreted.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Mucous, it's funny, because I just recently had a conversation with someone on facebook about that particular billboard. I mostly just think it's worded poorly, as well as missing out on an opportunity to relate a more positive message.

I'm guessing that what it was intending to say was "there's probably no god. Now stop worrying (about things specifically related to god) and enjoy (all the things in) life (that your belief in god has kept you from for no logical reason).

As it is, that billboard strikes me as an "eat, drink, and be merry" proclamation. Though again, even if it isn't, I think it was a missed opportunity to show a more positive method.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
scholarette, not only will it be going up around the holiday season, but it will be going up in the city of Bethlehem, known in these parts as "The Christmas City".

I agree with what you say about the positive message. And though I can only speak for myself, my purpose as an atheist is emphatically not to convince everyone not to believe in god, rather to promote education, the importance of the sciences and rationality in our lives and in our discourse. If atheism follows from that, great. As a member of a humanist group, that purpose is widened to promote the idea that non-believers can and should be ethical, as well as providing a resource/community for other non-believers.
 
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
 
I would avoid "Be good for goodness' sake."

It conjures up images of an entity, believed in by some by not by others, often artistically represented as a bearded man, all-seeing and all-knowing, who miraculously metes out punishments and rewards.
 
Posted by Mucous (Member # 12331) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The White Whale:
Mucous, I don't like the idea of an atheistic message to be "atheists don't worry about anything and are hedonistic," which is what I think the second half of your suggestion would be interpreted.

Hmmm, I never thought of it that way.

Actually, I should elaborate. The ad has been run in multiple cities in Canada and in London but not the US. I can totally see that what works in that less religious context (and less puritanical context) would be different from what works in the US where you have to struggle with more basic perceptions like "can atheists be good."

So, whatever works for you (general you) [Smile]
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
What is important to you? What do you stand for?

Rather than even considering what you stand against, if you list out what you believe in and stand for, you'll probably find what you want to say on that list.

human rights: "We the People Includes All the People"

civil liberties: The text of the first amendment.

the scientific method: Uh...no idea. "Leave the expert testimony to the experts."

democratic process: "Want to make a difference? Then vote."
 
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
He's stated all that pretty explicitly already. The issue is how to consolidate those things into something catchy enough for a billboard to effectively communicate it.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
human rights: "We the People Includes All the People"

civil liberties: The text of the first amendment.

the scientific method: Uh...no idea. "Leave the expert testimony to the scientific experts."

democratic process: "Want to make a difference? Then vote."
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I've been trying to think of something along the lines of:

What if this life is all we have? Let's be good to each other for our own sakes.

or

What if this life is all we have? Let's be good because it's the right thing to do.

or

Are you good without god? We are too.

or some variation of those.

Squicky, I like your idea, though as I mentioned, we're the only group that are secular humanists, and while we have more influence, I do want to be fair to the other groups.

Katharina, the mission statement i posted above does a fair job of relating what we stand for. The trick is trying to get that across in a billboard, as well as making it something that grabs peoples' attention.

edit: whoops, there was some cross posting while I posted!
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
Not that I am the target audience, but I like MrSqicky's suggestion a lot. It is positive amd inspiring.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
"Be good. It's the right thing to do."

What is the goal of getting a billboard. Are you sprinkling some sunshine into the world, or is it also marketing for your groups?

The suggestions in your post above all still seem to be reactions against religion, defining yourself as separate from it and what you are, rather than what you are and what you are for.
 
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
quote:

It conjures up images of an entity, believed in by some by not by others, often artistically represented as a bearded man, all-seeing and all-knowing, who miraculously metes out punishments and rewards.

On that note, "God is Santa for adults" would be a billboard I would get a kick out of seeing, though more offensive than you are looking for.

The theistic billboards here in Omaha are often about this offensive to me as an atheist as the above, but I like to think we're better than that.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
The billboard is being given to us, our goal in taking advantage of this opportunity is twofold. Promote Humanism, and grow our group.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Atheists believe in you."
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
"more offensive"...is it meant to be a little antagonistic and offensive? I mean, is a dig at religion a plus for or distraction from your purpose?

quote:
Promote Humanism, and grow our group.
Humanism, or secular humanism in particular? In other words, is your group looking for people who share the mission statement values, or is your group only looking for people who share the mission statement values and don't believe in God.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Katharina, I don't know that my suggestions are so off the mark. Take the last one.

In eight words it conveys the promotion of morality, the rejection of the supernatural, and the existence of a community. They may not be perfect suggestions, but they certainly get some of the important points across.
 
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
quote:
"more offensive"...is it meant to be a little antagonistic and offensive? I mean, is a dig at religion a plus for or distraction from your purpose?
This post seems to be in response to mine but directed at Strider, so I am confused.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
So being anti-religion is actually essential to the message you are trying to send.
 
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
I think that there is value in promoting the idea that atheism has something to offer. Ideally this should come across in a way that showcases that this IS distinct from what religion offers, but not in a way that goes out of its way to detract from religion. I think there is a certain type of religion person who WILL be offended by that message no matter what, but that's an acceptable fallout.

I like Tom's message.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"If you're reading this, you're a human."
 
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
 
How about on Mr Squicky's just drop the secular humanists. So it would be "We believe in people, just look what they can do." Nifty pictures and then the three names of your groups. I don't see why the other groups would disagree with that message.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Katharina, if you want to call a rejection of supernaturalism being "anti-religion", that's your choice, but not our intention. That's like saying that because I don't watch football, I hate football.

Our mission statement clearly defines humanism as a nontheistic philosophy. If someone with supernatural beliefs wants to join because they embrace the rest of our mission and vision, that's wonderful, as long as they understand the organization espouses a non-theistic philosophy.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
In general, I think people respond to positive messages over negative ones, especially when you want their active involvement. Going negative might tarnish what you are anti in someone's mind, but that's not the same thing as nudging them towards positive action in a different direction.

quote:
So it would be "We believe in people, just look what they can do." Nifty pictures and then the three names of your groups. I don't see why the other groups would disagree with that message.
I think this definitely fulfills the sprinkling sunshine goal, but not the "join our atheistic group" goal.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Can you point out explicitly what was negative about the three suggestions I listed?
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
quote:
think that there is value in promoting the idea that atheism has something to offer.
I'm not sure that atheism in and of itself has something to offer; it's just a functional truth, like 2+2 = 4. If you're trying to add 2 plus 2, I suppose that fact is of value -- but it's not like you can hang a philosophy on it.

Secular humanism might have something to offer, though. After all, they're a club that asks, "Given that God doesn't exist, what other reasons do we have for being good people?"
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
I agree with Tom's distinction.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
quote:
What if this life is all we have? Let's be good to each other for our own sakes.

or

What if this life is all we have? Let's be good because it's the right thing to do.

These two are fine. I agree with them both and I think they are positive, if slightly vague on specifics. (Define "good.")

quote:
Are you good without god? We are too.
This one has a double meaning. The first one is fine. The second meaning is staking a claim on goodness, which is....hmmm...maybe I'm American enough or modern enough that when someone is literally self-righteous, I raise my eyebrows at their lack of humility and possible lack of self-insight. It's a heck of a claim.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Can you be more explicit about this second meaning? I'm not seeing it.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
"We are good." As in, we are good people. We are the very models of the modern righteous citizens.

Modern Westerners don't make those claims - they claim to be trying to be good, they claim to want to be good, they claim to be striving to be good, they claim to be following the good, but they don't flat out claim to be good. They claim to be on the journey and the right path to goodness. That slogan means you are claiming to already be there.

Such claims to be there come off, to my ears, as either hubristic or comical (hence the Gilbert and Sullivan song - the model of a modern major general is a comic character). If we were in ancient Rome, you could totally say it and be taken seriously - Cicero did it all the time. But I don't think it works for modern ears.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
So if I reworded that to:

Do you believe you can be good without god? We do to.

you would not have these same problems with it?
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Also, I'll point out that the problem you had with one out of my three suggestions was one of perceived hubris, not negativity.
 
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
 
Biblical:
An angry Jehovah figure with lightning bolts in each hand. Caption: "He can only smite you if you believe in him."

Sad: An arab and a Jew aiming weapons at each other. Caption: "Ever consider that having a god could be a curse and not a blessing?"

In-your-face: A simple to-do list, reading "To do today: 1)Fire my God. 2) Leave the position vacant."

Whimsical: Two people looking down at a third in a coffin. One whispering to the other: "If he were an atheist he'd be finished already."

Cerebral: A split illustration with a pocketwatch on one side, the world as seen from space on the other. Caption: "Logically, one had to have a creator, the other didn't."
 
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
"Atheists believe in you."

I like this one the best. Implies some kind of faith in humanity that you don't necessarily see from coming from religion.
 
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
 
For most people I know, you say atheist, they think God hater. It isn't someone who doesn't believe in God, it is someone who is specifically antagonistic to them and their beliefs. It is someone who hates and generally someone smug and condescending. It is not a good person because for most Americans (there are studies that back this up) you cannot be good without God. This billboard could be a chance to show a different side to the atheist movement- the belief in the greatness of people, regardless of their faith. People are very touchy already regarding atheists and believe they are out to destroy, so any hint at arrogance and hatred is going to be magnified. That is why I personally would try to limit the anti-religion, rejection of supernatural if I was doing a billboard. It is kinda like are you pro-choice or anti-life?
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
So if I reworded that to:

Do you believe you can be good without god? We do to.

you would not have these same problems with it?

I would have a problem with the missing "o". [Wink]
 
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
How about simply putting up a sympathetic definition of humanism and a website or some way of contacting your organization?

Not many people are going to change their religion because of a billboard, but there may be plenty of people out there who share your basic beliefs but don't know what to call themselves and don't know where to go to meet people who believe similarly.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
So if I reworded that to:

Do you believe you can be good without god? We do to.

you would not have these same problems with it?

Yeah, except now it isn't arresting marketing. It no longer has a double meaning and it isn't as snappy.

I'm not trying to be difficult. If we were in my office developing the language, this is what I'd say.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tresopax:
How about simply putting up a sympathetic definition of humanism and a website or some way of contacting your organization?

Not many people are going to change their religion because of a billboard, but there may be plenty of people out there who share your basic beliefs but don't know what to call themselves and don't know where to go to meet people who believe similarly.

This suggestion I love, actually.

"Secular humanism: something accurate and positive.

Join us.

website
website
website"
 
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
"Secular Humanism: Belief in the power and goodness of humankind."

Works for me. Although I still like either "Secular Humanists believe in you" or "Secular Humanists believe in people." I think those are stronger marketing slogans.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Secular humanism: because you get one chance to be a good person."
"This is not a warm-up."
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
"Rehearsal" might sound better than "warm-up". Maybe "prelude"?
 
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
"If there is nothing watching over you, your every action means even more."

or

"Are we more or less responsible for our own morality with or without belief in God?"

or (taken from another quote here)

"Are we using the concept of a god to ventriloquize our morality?"

or

"Do we really need some outside force to define our own morality?"
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Maybe "dress rehearsal"?
 
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
"Life's a song you don't get to rehearse"? [Wink]
 
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The White Whale:
"If there is nothing watching over you, your every action means even more."

or

"Are we more or less responsible for our own morality with or without belief in God?"

or (taken from another quote here)

"Are we using the concept of a god to ventriloquize our morality?"

or

"Do we really need some outside force to define our own morality?"

Not only do all of these sound more deliberately confrontational than they need to be, but they aren't very catchy.
 
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
I second Tres. You're not going to win any members or much sympathy using what Flying Fish posted. You're trawling for like-minded people who just haven't formed a name for how they think or realized there are others who think like them. You want the billboard to say essentially what these people have been thinking themselves, so they recognize the thought. I'm for Strider's rewrite of the "Good without God" slogan, posed as a question, and saying "We do to" at the bottom, along with a URL or phone number.
 
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
But they approach a question I always have wondered about. In my mind, without a god or creator or whatever, I feel like our every action means even more.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
"We are all the meaning we need."
 
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
I like that one, kmbboots.
 
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
Perhaps include that slew of positive, human photos. Babies, men on the moon, smiling faces, people helping each other out.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Shigosei:
"Life's a song you don't get to rehearse"? [Wink]

Heh.

This may not be a call out to the atheistic crowd. There are many passages in various scriptures that have that same message.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Be good. If not now, when?"
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
"Be good, there's no other good alternative."
 
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
 
You could probably do some interesting things with certain common prayers with substitutions in the place of the relevant religious figures or phrases-

Hail, humanity, full of grace.

Deliver us from evil, we men.

What about the life of the world, to-day?
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
Interesting yes, but it still gives the slight impression you are trying to knock religion for getting it wrong.

It wouldn't ruin my day, but it'd be nice to read one where I am uplifted by the idea and that's it, rather than uplifted and then a little disappointed that there was any need to accentuate our differences.
 
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
 
I really like the "not alone" slogans. Given that one of your three groups is a recovering from religion group, and like advice for robots said, you are looking for like-minded people who didn't realize you existed.

Also, don't forget this is a billboard. Keep it short!
 
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
 
Yeah, I also like the "not alone" ones. I think they would be the most effective for bringing in like-minded people. It's basically an invitation to these people to check out your organization(s). The "we're nice people" ones seem more aimed at religious people and brand building, which seems like a secondary goal at this point.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Come play some board games!"
 
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
 
"Atheism! (God, we hope we're right about this!)"

"Atheist Outreach -- because we're not happy until you're not happy."

"At least we cared enough to send you a sign."
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
"Come play some board games!"

[ROFL]

Is that the special for Utah version?
 
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
 
Flying Fish's we hope we're right about this would make me laugh. [Smile]
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
"Morality without the child molestation!"

"Want a social scene without Jello?" - Utah Only

"No ritualized cannibalism, just good times!"

"If God were real, HE'D join us!"

"So life is meaningless; Make some meaning with us!"

"No God, No Allah, No Problem."

"You've got one life, why wasted it on your knees?" -This would go well with a picture of Monica Lewinsky

"Why does God need 10% of your cash? You can hang with us for free."

"Has God EVER returned one of your phone calls? We do."
 
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
 
Some of the Pixiest totally made me laugh, but I think if trying to also help people think better of atheists, they may not work so well. Of course, I think living in Texas makes me a little skittish on anything with religion- too many crazies here.
 
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
Out of touch with God? Rub shoulders with us.

A discussion of moral values that doesn’t start with a prayer.

Left your church behind? Give our group a try.

We like to keep things at eye level.

If that’s just sky above, maybe you’d like to meet us.

Sleep in Sunday morning. Join us Wednesday evening.
 
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
How do you find us? Follow your own directions.

Hello, I believe in ___________. (write your name on the line)

No communion, but we pass around cookies.
 
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
 
Did you hear the one about the two ad men sitting around the office? One says, "I'm having trouble coming up for a campaign slogan for this billboard we're doing for an atheist group. It needs to be uplifting, inspirational, and project love for all humanity and the meaningfulness of life, but it can't mention God."

The second guy says "That sounds almost impossible."

Then a voice from above booms out, "Well, Duuh!"

But seriously, I like all of the above from advice4robots, and I think they hit just the right tone.
 
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
 
quote:
Sleep in Sunday morning. Join us Wednesday evening.
Sounds good to me.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rollainm:
quote:
Sleep in Sunday morning. Join us Wednesday evening.
Sounds good to me.
Except our monthly meetings are on Sunday mornings! [Smile]
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'm writing down a bunch. I think the trick will be trying to find something that all three groups will be happy with and which will do a decent job of representing everybody.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rollainm:
quote:
Sleep in Sunday morning. Join us Wednesday evening.
Sounds good to me.
This confused me, because church is Sunday afternoon and on Wednesday nights for huge swaths of the population.
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
quote:
Originally posted by rollainm:
quote:
Sleep in Sunday morning. Join us Wednesday evening.
Sounds good to me.
This confused me, because church is Sunday afternoon and on Wednesday nights for huge swaths of the population.
Well yeah, but people still associate Sunday with going to church.
 
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
 
I thought they associated it with football.
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Pixiest:
"Why does God need 10% of your cash? You can hang with us for free."

Reminds me of "What does God need with a starship?" [Smile]
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
quote:
Originally posted by rollainm:
quote:
Sleep in Sunday morning. Join us Wednesday evening.
Sounds good to me.
This confused me, because church is Sunday afternoon and on Wednesday nights for huge swaths of the population.
Well yeah, but people still associate Sunday with going to church.
The point is that Wednesday evening is also associated with church for many, many people.
 
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
]The point is that Wednesday evening is also associated with church for many, many people.

True. But many, many people is still probably a minority.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
So pick a different night, word the first part differently, and the whole thing makes more sense.

Good advertising doesn't confuse people.

-----

I don't know, though - I don't think it is particularly effective in the first place. If someone is already waking up on Sunday morning to go to church, then "quit that and join us for no discernable reason" isn't going to work. If they aren't, then it doesn't make sense. They already sleep in on Sunday.
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
quote:
Originally posted by rollainm:
quote:
Sleep in Sunday morning. Join us Wednesday evening.
Sounds good to me.
This confused me, because church is Sunday afternoon and on Wednesday nights for huge swaths of the population.
Well yeah, but people still associate Sunday with going to church.
The point is that Wednesday evening is also associated with church for many, many people.
I get that. I'm saying even for those going to church on Wednesday, they would be perfectly aware that Sunday is church day traditionally and for the majority of the populace.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I don't know, though - I don't think it is particularly effective in the first place. If someone is already waking up on Sunday morning to go to church, then "quit that and join us for no discernable reason" isn't going to work. If they aren't, then it doesn't make sense. They already sleep in on Sunday.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Katharina, it's a lighthearted joke. Most people would see it in the way it was intended.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Things like "Sleep in on Sundays", which have as part of their message "life without religion is better than with it" do not come across as purely positive messages, if that's important to you.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I'm saying it isn't effective as advertising. If the goal is just to goof around, then knock yourself out.
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
I don't know, though - I don't think it is particularly effective in the first place. If someone is already waking up on Sunday morning to go to church, then "quit that and join us for no discernable reason" isn't going to work. If they aren't, then it doesn't make sense. They already sleep in on Sunday.

True enough.
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
(Catch-up for those not in the know, what happens on Wednesday night?)
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
A lot of people go to church.
 
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
So pick a different night, word the first part differently, and the whole thing makes more sense.

Good advertising doesn't confuse people.

-----

I don't know, though - I don't think it is particularly effective in the first place. If someone is already waking up on Sunday morning to go to church, then "quit that and join us for no discernable reason" isn't going to work. If they aren't, then it doesn't make sense. They already sleep in on Sunday.

My original line was a touch of tongue in cheek anyway, and I didn't spend a ton of time considering it. You're right--maybe there's something Strider could do with the idea, but the wording isn't quite there yet. I picked Wednesday night as the time most diametrically opposed to Sunday morning as I could think of--as secular a time as you could get, in other words. Obviously, that's not true for vast amounts of people.

Edit: The idea was that if people are already butting against getting up on Sunday to go to church--church isn't doing it for them and they have disagreements with it--check out this humanist organization. I don't think it can hold any more meaning than that.
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
Elaborate?
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Katharina, I didn't suggest it and wasn't endorsing it. Just commenting on the fact that you seem to be harping on it.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
You asked for feedback. Did you not want feedback? Was this just posturing?

I'm intrigued the idea of crafting a short, pithy, effective message that includes all the meanings you said you wanted to include. It's difficult, and you have to think about why things will and won't work.

Don't ask for participation and then object when people participate.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
kat,
You are obviously out of line.

It seems like you're only participation on Hatrack lately has been to try to pick fights. I don't what has brought you to this, but it's a very bad way to be. It's not good for you.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Oh, baloney. [Roll Eyes]

I'll remember this the next Strider asks for input. He doesn't actually want a discussion. Squick, as always, wants to be nasty to me.
 
Posted by JanitorBlade (Member # 12343) on :
 
As has tended to be the case, when discussion shifts from discussing ideas, towards discussing poster's personalities, it never ends well.

Please refrain from doing it. But if you must, take it to email.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Katharina, I did ask for feedback, and I do want feedback.

There were dozens of suggestions in this thread, many of which could probably be criticized more heavily than the one we are discussing now. Again, I was just pointing out the undue attention you were paying to this one suggestion. It seemed to me that the gist and intent of the message would be conveyed whether the day chosen was Wednesday or Thursday, and even though many people go to church on Wednesdays, Sunday morning is still the day associated with church going, and the day I see the most amount of people going. I don't understand how pointing out that you were belaboring the point is posturing.

If you want my view on that particular billboard idea, I wouldn't use it because it doesn't convey anything about the broader message we're trying to get across. Though I find it amusing.
 
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
I'd put some inspiring pictures: a baby in a doctor's arms, astronauts in the space station or a shuttle launch, an athlete running on artificial legs, and a tagline like, "Science, for the betterment of all humanity."
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Except that the essence of secular humanism is not actually the worship of "science."
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
I agree that it isn't all about science but I think pictures of what human beings can accomplish are key to delivering the message. You could throw some great art in there as well. Michaelangelo's David or DaVinci's Vitruvian Man, some bars of music as well as the more scientific accomplishments could round out the picture.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Also again, the billboard is for the three local groups. One of which is, the secular humanists.

The other is this freethought society which seems to more anti religion and concerned with issues of separation of church and state and "protecting the rights of atheists". And the third is this recovering from religion group which is all about a support group for ex-theists.

The only thing that really ties all these groups together is a lack of belief in a deity.

If it was just us, I'd really like MightyCows and MrSquicky's related ideas. But there's a) the issue someone brought up on an earlier page about not just showing impressive achievements but good achievements and b) do we have to worry about great things accomplished by people of faith only to have religious people say, "yeah, look at all the great humanity has accomplished...as a result of their faith.
 
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
I don't think showing achievements is a very convincing way of making a case - generally Christians believe our achievements are God working through us and, as you pointed out, the religious tend to think religion contributed to those achievements. Science included.

Again, what is the message you want to send with this? The only thing that ties you together may be lack of belief, but if that's the case then I don't think there's any way a billboard can argue "God doesn't exist" that won't be taken in a negative light by most people who see it. There's no real positive way to tell someone their religion is fundamentally wrong using just a billboard.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
Even as a religious person, I tend to think of the Italian Renaissance as a celebration of man rather than of religion despite the underlying "default" religion. Everyone might not get that, though. Are there achievements you could show that are well known to be accomplished by people that would be recognized at atheists?
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
quote:
There's no real positive way to tell someone their religion is fundamentally wrong using just a billboard.
Perhaps:
"We believe your religions are fundamentally wrong. But we still believe you're good people." [Smile]

Seriously, there is no way to say "atheism is a better choice" that won't be taken as confrontational, simply because it is mildly confrontational -- on a subject that many people choose to find even minor confrontations highly offensive. Instead, you need to say "atheism is a good choice, and this is why."

The problem there is that the single best reason to be an atheist -- and certainly the only reason universal to all atheists -- is that it's true. And this brings with it the implicit assertion that, yeah, all those belief systems out there are a bunch of hokum. So I'd run with the secular humanist route, playing up the inherent goodness of people as social creatures -- with or without God.
 
Posted by Nathan Yahoo (Member # 12056) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:

The problem there is that the single best reason to be an atheist -- and certainly the only reason universal to all atheists -- is that it's true.

No it's not.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
How about something like "Having problems seeing meaning in your life without a God? We can help with that."
 
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
 
quote:
No it's not.
Then what is the best reason to be an atheist?
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
To learn more about God? [Wink]
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
Hmm...looking through a list of famous atheists I wasn't finding much that jumped out. Edison was a biggie so an image of a lightbulb would be a good symbol. Also many of the people who worked on DNA. The double helix would carry all sorts of extra symbolism.
 
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
quote:

The only thing that really ties all these groups together is a lack of belief in a deity.

What seemed appropriate for this is: "We don't believe in God either." followed by the organizations. I'm not sure how close that is to previous suggestions in this thread.

I myself am an atheist who would probably look into your group if it was in my area and I knew about it, so a sign like that would grab my attention to it.
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
 
*rummages around Wikipedia and is irrationally amused that Bruce Lee and Katharine Hepburn are atheists*
 
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
If I were leaving my faith behind, I would not want people gloating, “I told you so.” In fact, that would be my number one reason for not joining an atheist group. Part of leaving your faith is admitting that you were wrong, and having others remind you of that would only rankle. Rather, I would be looking for affirmations that whatever philosophy had replaced my faith was valid and meaningful—something that helped me on the upswing, not amplified the downswing.

I would also be looking for ways to find meaning and purpose in my life post-religion. What’s a major reason people belong to a church? Because it’s a community of people with a common goal. If I’m going to leave my church, I’m giving up a significant source of social interaction, friendship, and support, as well as a source of mutual affirmation in my beliefs. I will be looking to replace that probably faster than anything else. Even while my new thoughts and beliefs coalesce, I will be hungry for a similar positive experience of human friendship and support.

And while scientific accomplishments are great, they are also kind of cold and impersonal. People are people. They want human interaction. They don’t leave their church behind to start studying the encyclopedia alone at home. They don’t leave a lot of warm mutual affirmation behind for facts about Watson and Crick and the double helix. As much as scientific discovery is a worthy goal, it doesn’t give me much in the way of reordering my daily life. After breaking with something that was part of my everyday life, the first place I turn will probably not be The People Who Brought You the Light Bulb.

I have to say it—it’s also a little insulting to have humanists or atheists or whatever they call themselves claim all that territory. As if now that you’re post-religion, you’re finally ready to celebrate science! Welcome to the other side! It’s about as far from genuine as you can sound.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
What about including some images of people (presumably atheists though there isn't any obvious way to indicate that) doing good works? Tutoring, a doctor helping a child, passing out food - something like that in addition to the other images?
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
No it's not.
Then what is the best reason to be an atheist?
I have a very different perspective than many other people, but for me, the TRUTH of a religion or atheism or whatever is very much a secondary concern to the effect of that belief.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
See, I find that kind of thing insulting. I know atheists do good works, because I'm an atheist and I know other atheists and all of us do good works. The idea that there are people out there who would learn that from a billboard just pisses me off.
 
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
Another suggestion, something like:

"Just because you don't have a religion, doesn't mean you can't have a community."

As an atheist that often wishes he wasn't due to the social benefits of religion, that would probably appeal to me.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
quote:
"Just because you don't have a religion, doesn't mean you can't have a community."
I like it. It's a useful, good message, and it's 100% positive to boot.
 
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
No it's not.
Then what is the best reason to be an atheist?
I lol'd.
 
Posted by Hedwig (Member # 2315) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
*rummages around Wikipedia and is irrationally amused that Bruce Lee and Katharine Hepburn are atheists*

*is irrationally amused that Mucus acknowledges the existence of the afterlife*
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
See, I find that kind of thing insulting. I know atheists do good works, because I'm an atheist and I know other atheists and all of us do good works. The idea that there are people out there who would learn that from a billboard just pisses me off.

It wasn't meant to be insulting.
 
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
I wasn't insulted, but it wouldn't interest me in the group. I might agree with the message, but I doubt I'd look into the group(s).
 
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
How about ,"Our group-where the Secular Humanists go after their MENSA meetings."
 
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
Or "Coffee, Bacon, Harry Potter, Disneyland, D&D, Cheese Burgers - all OK with us!"
 
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MightyCow:
Or "Coffee, Bacon, Harry Potter, Disneyland, D&D, Cheese Burgers - all OK with us!"

"...although we're generally too enlightened for all of them except coffee."
 
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
quote:
I like it. It's a useful, good message, and it's 100% positive to boot.
Oh and thanks Porter.

This thread reminds me that I was planning on finding a group like this in Omaha. Probably won't though. People are scary.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
Xavier, I really like that suggestion, or some variation of it.

My original reasons for wanting to be a part of a humanist group were similar. By the time this one was actually being formed I had filled most of that void with various volunteering activities, political campaigns, and other organizations, and an integration of all these networks with what is actually a pretty lively arts/culture community in my city.

But yeah, our humanist group has a book club, movie night, and monthly speakers usually focused on social/ethical/political issues of interest (though there are a decent bit of issues focused on religion/atheism), as well as community service and social events.
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
*rummages around Wikipedia and is irrationally amused that Bruce Lee and Katharine Hepburn are atheists*

Not any more they aren't.

[Taunt]
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
"Just because you don't have a religion, doesn't mean you can't have a community."
I like it. It's a useful, good message, and it's 100% positive to boot.
Entirely agree.
 
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
quote:
"Just because you don't have a religion, doesn't mean you can't have a community."
This sums up my speech in comparative religions class. It seems to me that to a great extent, this is what's driving the current atheist movement; the discovery that there are others out there who are having the same experience, but that it the past it was very difficult to share it with them. Until 1997, atheism was very lonely for me.

So yeah, this one gets my vote.
 
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
*rummages around Wikipedia and is irrationally amused that Bruce Lee and Katharine Hepburn are atheists*

Not any more they aren't.

[Taunt]

If one doesn't believe in an afterlife, that comes off as a rather dark taunt. [Smile]
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Javert:
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
*rummages around Wikipedia and is irrationally amused that Bruce Lee and Katharine Hepburn are atheists*

Not any more they aren't.

[Taunt]

If one doesn't believe in an afterlife, that comes off as a rather dark taunt. [Smile]
That angle occurred to me within seconds of posting. I don't successfully employ dark humor nearly enough.
 
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
If one doesn't believe in an afterlife, then they still don't believe in God. If you're a materialist, everyone's an atheist after they die [Wink]
 
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
So this thread has inspired me to go to the next Omaha Atheists meetup: Discussion Group-Raising Children of Atheist Parents. Edit: looks like the URL only works for members, sorry.

Do you guys think it appropriate to bring our new baby?

[ October 01, 2010, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Your baby will almost certainly be mildly disruptive, causing either you or your wife to have to step out for a bit. But otherwise I don't see a problem with it.
 
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
 
cool, good luck Xavier. I hope the group works out for you.
 
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
Group-Raising Children of Atheist Parents?!

Sounds...different. [Wink]
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Your baby will almost certainly be mildly disruptive, causing either you or your wife to have to step out for a bit. But otherwise I don't see a problem with it.

Tom's got it right. We take our baby to church, but one of us almost always waits in the foyer rather than in the chapel proper. We could probably both wait inside and then if he fusses take him out, but those 10 seconds or so are still disruptive, and if everybody was doing that it'd be hard to get anything done. Work out a system with your wife. [Smile]
 
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
quote:
Group-Raising Children of Atheist Parents?!

Sounds...different. [Wink]

Yeah, I had trouble parsing it myself at first. I copied and pasted the title from their page, should have made the pronunciation less clunky.

Discussion Group: Raising Children of Atheist Parents

They have lots of activities and a very active membership it appears.

As for the bub, so far car rides knock him out pretty effectively. We've been able to eat at restaurants and the like. I don't think one of us popping out with him would be a problem at all though if he does get fussy.
 
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
You'll be the "case in point" all evening.
 
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
 
Why not contact the person in charge and ask?
 
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
I actually asked in my meet-up RSVP, and he responded that of course it was okay. I didn't think it would be a problem.
 
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
 
Neither did I. A group of parents sitting around and talking about raising kids aren't going to have a problem with someone bring a small child if they are good at the get-out-when-it-cries routine. They've all been there.

I webstalked the Omaha group and am amused to see they are using the "Don't believe in God? You are not alone." tagline.
 
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
I have half a slogan. It needs another half, I think:

"Looking up and seeing only stars?" [Insert other half about how this is not only okay, but pretty freaking fabulous]

The background would be, duh, a starry night with light letters. Although I suppose this wouldn't actually need the second half, if the image was beautiful and stunning enough (not that hard, really) and the name of the organization contained the word humanists or atheists prominently.

Also, it's alliterative.

I thought of it because this suggestion doesn't typify atheists to me:
quote:
We like to keep things at eye level.
As an atheist, looking UP and seeing only stars (and that being not only okay but pretty freaking fabulous) is something I do regularly.

Loving and striving to understand the universe is something I think that is very close to the hearts of many secular humanists and atheists. Looking up has an intrinsically positive association with hope and also with religion-- The sky is the home of many of our world's more hopeful gods and the source of many of our myths about gods and goddesses. Now we understand it, many atheists, I think, use the sheer beauty and amazingness of the universe as inspiration with no need to invoke a god or gods as intermediary.

EDIT: Variation with a little more of a bite: "Looking up but seeing only stars"

[ October 02, 2010, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
 


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