I'm slowly making progress.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
You've got the eyes and hair pretty well. Mouth needs to be a bit bigger, I think.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
There, updated.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Although if we're on the topic of constructive criticism... I'ld suggest taking a screenshot of a random page of order of the stick and just make yours the same dimensions and then adjust proportions from there.
This guide is basically what I started from and extrapolated everything from there.
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
I like it.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
all of these oots style comics you guys are making just have no flow and are ridiculously cluttered. If they're humorous, most people will never know, since they drown their own humor.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I'm skeptical if you have in fact seen even more than a few samples of my work.
Posted by Aris Katsaris (Member # 4596) on :
The lettering is also horrible. Pick a font size and stick to it, don't increase or decrease it in every single speech-baloon.
The background color of the speech balloons also needs be a *lot* softer, all the colors are clashing horribly as they are now.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Yes, well, you should see our ingame negotiations. Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: I'm skeptical if you have in fact seen even more than a few samples of my work.
You post them to this forum. I've seen enough. I could see more, and probably have the same complaints. If you disagree and you care at all whether or not I would have the same complaints of ones you think I haven't seen, show them.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: all of these oots style comics you guys are making just have no flow and are ridiculously cluttered. If they're humorous, most people will never know, since they drown their own humor.
What do you mean by 'no flow'? How would you suggest changing these ones to improve it?
As for clutter, this looks to me like a matter of taste. I loathe comics that take three pages to put up one speech bubble and the reaction to it. The focus should be on advancing the story, which is done in text bubbles, not art.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: I'm skeptical if you have in fact seen even more than a few samples of my work.
You post them to this forum. I've seen enough. I could see more, and probably have the same complaints. If you disagree and you care at all whether or not I would have the same complaints of ones you think I haven't seen, show them.
I post most of my work at Sakeriver where the forum software is more conducive for images; but I object to the criticism of being 'cluttered' how are you defining this? Or flow? Isn't it apparent you read left to right and follow roughly the order of speech bubbles?
Let me know what you think. What would make the comic better? It is in the beginning stages, and I only spend a few minutes a day on them.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I'm floored.
Posted by ColtelloMer (Member # 11779) on :
Floored? What does that mean?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Impressed?
Posted by ColtelloMer (Member # 11779) on :
Oh, okay that makes sense. Thank you! Is there anything about the comic that you would change that would make you more likely to look at it daily?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I could give it a look but it looks Slice of Life and I generally only watch/read very few of those, I get antsy if there isn't a plot.
It's a matter of just personal taste for me, I mean your comic looks good and has impressive art style but I can't gaurantee I would always be able to read it, I still have a bunch of Misfile, The Meek and other webcomics to catch up on Posted by ColtelloMer (Member # 11779) on :
That's fine I understand. I am a huge fan of web comics with story lines. Boxer Hockey is by far my favorite. I have several ideas for a comic more along those lines, with a story and all that. But I started My Skinny Jeans are Red to force myself to draw everyday.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
ColtelloMer: You get major style points for having a comic strip on your life.
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
ColtelloMer, interesting.
Interesting that this thread came up at the same time I happened to pick up a biography of Will Eisner. I'd be interested in knowing whether people who do comics in software or online know who Will Eisner was....
Posted by ColtelloMer (Member # 11779) on :
Phanto: Thank you, I appreciate the comment!
Flying Fish: I actually did not know who Will Eisner was. It's sad, but I am pretty limited in my knowledge of comic history. That's an area I am trying to improve.
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
Good for you, ColtelloMer -- I especially appreciate the attitude that you want to learn more. That alone shows that you have potential.
Grab everything by Eisner you can lay your hands on and study it. Don't read it, STUDY it! Like Jules Feiffer wrote in the book "The Great Comic Book Heroes," --
Kids trying to learn to draw comics swiped from pro artists; pro artists swiped from Eisner.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Blayne, I think my husband has gone through the same tutorials as you. I've seen that chick a few times. Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Hehehehe
My only issue with Mike Criley's tutorial is that he doesn't quite give enough elaboration on how to draw things, his face/head tutorial is fairly details but the eyes isn't as detailed so it's difficult to mimic.
Does your husband have msn or skype? Maybe we can swap some hints and tricks.
Posted by Parsimony (Member # 8140) on :
ColtelloMer - I just wanted to tell you that I really enjoyed your comic. It felt like you have a genuinely positive and uplifting outlook on life, and seeing that made my day a little bit better. If you are actually pessimistic and cynical in your outlook, then you do an excellent job hiding it, and I wish you well in your future psychopathic endeavors.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
[IMG]http://i52.tinypic.com/15z0evb.jpg[/IMG]
I'm proud of this one.
[ January 24, 2011, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: Blayne Bradley ]
Posted by manji (Member # 11600) on :
My advice is to stop slavishly copying someone else's art style.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: all of these oots style comics you guys are making just have no flow and are ridiculously cluttered. If they're humorous, most people will never know, since they drown their own humor.
What do you mean by 'no flow'? How would you suggest changing these ones to improve it?
As for clutter, this looks to me like a matter of taste. I loathe comics that take three pages to put up one speech bubble and the reaction to it. The focus should be on advancing the story, which is done in text bubbles, not art.
The first three panels of the first comic are fine for story progression.
I'm a bit confused once I get to the fourth panel, since you don't introduce the character, who I presume to be the Roman leader, like you do the Caliph of Egypt. Also, the panel seems to be split in two, so I don't get what's happening in the bottom half. To me that's clutter.
By the final panel, everything has gone to hell. Speech bubbles are read from top left to bottom right, so the dialog for this really cluttered panel is:
"I'm contributing from a safe distance." "He's right sonny boy! Hand over the goodies!" "Rawr! Russia Smash!" "Give up, Rome! I was ready for you this time, and I brought my friends! You can't win - wait, what's he doing?" "Kicking your army to pieces." "Oh like that would work! This map is only a symbolic representation of the real Europe!" "That's what I thought too, but apparently he found 'Necromancy' tech tree we didn't know about." "I triple guarantee you, there are no, none, zero necromancers in Baghdad!"
So, with the first three speech bubbles, I have no idea what's going on, they don't seem to relate to what's happened in the previous four panels at all. I'm confused and losing interest quickly.
By the fourth speech bubble, I start to realise this is the battle that the cataphracts were being summoned for in the previous panel, so I now know things have skipped ahead a bit. That should be the very first thing I know when I start reading this panel.
But the fourth speech bubble confuses me again. Who is the green guy referring to when he asks "wait, what's he doing"? When the fifth speech bubble responds, I still don't know who they're talking about. I would have had to notice the yellow dude's small foot at the very bottom of the comic which kinda looks like it's kicking the forces on the map, but not really.
The last two speech bubbles I also don't understand, but I attribute that to not knowing the rules of whatever game you're playing, and it may very well be funny if you are aware of them.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by manji: My advice is to stop slavishly copying someone else's art style.
???
How is this valid advice?
For example the point of copyinf Rich Burlew's style is that its vector graphics, one can get reasonably skilled after only a relatively low amount of effort and be able to output full comic strips relatively fast (an hour was my record), an activity that the author of Oots fully supports.
Sure it might be better to learn your own style but if your just a hobbyist looking for a quick and dirty way of learning how to draw why not?
Posted by manji (Member # 11600) on :
It's completely valid advice.
You said it yourself. If you're just some guy looking for a quick and dirty way to express yourself, fine. Go copy someone else and slap your own text on it, and call it a day.
If you're looking to improve your art, then draw every day, always being mindful that you are influenced by what you see and what you read, but being comfortable enough to make your own decisions and take your own risks.
That's not to say that anyone should take my advice. Generally, you should find what works for you on your own.
Posted by ColtelloMer (Member # 11779) on :
quote:Parsimony: ColtelloMer - I just wanted to tell you that I really enjoyed your comic. It felt like you have a genuinely positive and uplifting outlook on life, and seeing that made my day a little bit better. If you are actually pessimistic and cynical in your outlook, then you do an excellent job hiding it, and I wish you well in your future psychopathic endeavors.
Parsimony thank you so much for your comment. Hearing that at least one person had "a little bit better day" because of my comic makes it worth doing. Thank you! And just for the record I do try to have a positive outlook on life, I don't think of myself as pessimistic.
quote:manji: If you're looking to improve your art, then draw every day
I agree with Manji's advice. Drawing everyday is huge. The desire to improve myself and draw everyday was my initial reasoning for starting My Skinny Jeans are Red. As a note, just because you're drawing in vectors doesn't mean you have to copy someone's style, look at PVP for example. All his art is done in vectors but he has his own style.
Sorry if that sounded mean! : /
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by jebus202: The first three panels of the first comic are fine for story progression.
I'm a bit confused once I get to the fourth panel, since you don't introduce the character, who I presume to be the Roman leader, like you do the Caliph of Egypt. Also, the panel seems to be split in two, so I don't get what's happening in the bottom half. To me that's clutter.
Ok, I see what you mean. I had hoped the toga would make it clear, but obviously that wasn't enough. Perhaps a narrator bubble in the corner would have helped? Say "The Roman Emperor quickly learns of the impending attack..."
As for the split panel, the intention was to have a wall with two mosaic icons on it, a floor, and the Roman emperor sitting on a throne raised on a dais. Clearly I did not make this work fully, so chalk that one up to not being good at this art style.
quote:By the final panel, everything has gone to hell. Speech bubbles are read from top left to bottom right, so the dialog for this really cluttered panel is:
"I'm contributing from a safe distance." "He's right sonny boy! Hand over the goodies!" "Rawr! Russia Smash!" "Give up, Rome! I was ready for you this time, and I brought my friends! You can't win - wait, what's he doing?" "Kicking your army to pieces." "Oh like that would work! This map is only a symbolic representation of the real Europe!" "That's what I thought too, but apparently he found 'Necromancy' tech tree we didn't know about." "I triple guarantee you, there are no, none, zero necromancers in Baghdad!"
Yes, ok. I was having trouble fitting in all the characters I wanted, here. The speech bubbles, perhaps, could be moved around to work more as they do in the last panel of the second comic.
quote:So, with the first three speech bubbles, I have no idea what's going on, they don't seem to relate to what's happened in the previous four panels at all. I'm confused and losing interest quickly.
Ok, so perhaps another narrative bubble? "The war begins."
quote:But the fourth speech bubble confuses me again. Who is the green guy referring to when he asks "wait, what's he doing"? When the fifth speech bubble responds, I still don't know who they're talking about. I would have had to notice the yellow dude's small foot at the very bottom of the comic which kinda looks like it's kicking the forces on the map, but not really.
Hum. Not sure how to fix that one. Perhaps I needed another panel, or even two, to show the Persian necromancy at work, or being planned. And yes, this does rather rely on having been there for the war, in which bugs made large armies disappear at hilariously inappropriate times, usually just as they were about to launch war-winning offensives. The Caliph was hardest hit. So, there should be a panel or two with Persia's preparations for the war, involving the necromancy of the Mad Arab.
Thanks for the advice.
[ January 24, 2011, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: King of Men ]
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by manji: It's completely valid advice.
You said it yourself. If you're just some guy looking for a quick and dirty way to express yourself, fine. Go copy someone else and slap your own text on it, and call it a day.
If you're looking to improve your art, then draw every day, always being mindful that you are influenced by what you see and what you read, but being comfortable enough to make your own decisions and take your own risks.
That's not to say that anyone should take my advice. Generally, you should find what works for you on your own.
I think however what I disagree with here is that one can copy/imitate another style and then use that as a starting point, by beginning with Vector graphics I learned how to arrange panels, relative sizes, some experience in trying to keep up a schedule.
One can't really just 'copy' right off the bat either there is still a learning curve, art programs to experiment with and get used to I began only crude drawings as well and over months managed to refine it and integrate a gallery of templates to speed up the work and improve quality.
I think there's a huge wealth of learning and valuable experiences for learning how to be an artist that your practically outright discarding and dismissing.
One of my earlier works, background and foreground detail, it is one of my early works so the speech balloons could use some work but I wouldn't have known what to work on/from without starting from there.
There's also the point that I, for myself, don't "slavishly" copy Rich Burlew's style but in fact use my own variation and style.
Aside from the actually fairly obvious argument that vector graphics is actually different from free hand drawing I wouldn't be trying to learn how to draw manga without having had done a lot of work with dozens of strips in the first place.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Meh, "copying" is a huge part of learning to draw. Most visual artists start out by "slavishly" mimicking art that they love, until they begin to realize that they get more pleasure from creating work of their own. And, even then, their first original work tends to be variations on the stuff they were "copying" before. Sometimes those steps are hit in childhood; sometimes later.
Blayne, my husband doesn't have Skype or anything like that. He doesn't really get online, because most of his time is taken up with work and drawing. He's the type that can't pull his nose away from the sketch book for more than a few minutes at a time. Sorry about that.
But, re: Mark Crilley, you're absolutely right. My husband was already an accomplished artist when he started looking into the manga style, and he didn't spend long studying Crilley before getting dissatisfied. He's got the basics, but misses the big picture more often than not. Check out his tutorial on folds in clothing, if you haven't already, and you'll see what I mean.
ETA 2: I asked him, and he strongly suggested spending some time on posemaniacs.com. Being forced to draw what you see and only being allowed to spend a few seconds at a time on each image really pushes the brain into right-brain mode. Give it a shot.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
That site is very creepy >_<
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
In an art class a few years back, I had a friend who was drawing stuff approximately like Blayne, but taking a really long time (not sure how long it takes you to do the average anime tutorial, but this guy was taking 12 hours to stuff like this.
For two hours the teacher made us gesture draw, and by the end, he was doing stuff like this in about 5 minutes.
There's a lot to be said for studying from life to get a feel for how anatomy works and poses flow.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I'ld say I put about 1 hour work into it, tracing from the book -> tracing paper -> tablet is alot faster but I suspect isn't doing much for me.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I have made an encredible discovery! If I take my tracing paper that I drew an eye on and flip it upside down I can trace the symmetrical reverse of the eye I drew!!
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
That's cool, but if you're drawing with any perspective at all it's not going to be realistic. One eye will nearly always be smaller than the other.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Yeah thats proving a bit difficult.
edit: but the point was that by having the above method I could get two slightly different hand drawn eyes that were easily symmetrical.
Posted by manji (Member # 11600) on :
That's normally what happens when you trace.
Posted by ColtelloMer (Member # 11779) on :
I tired throwing a little bit of color on my newest comic. I'm thinking about going to a MWF schedule.
Let me know what you guys think. What would make this a better webcomic? So far I have only gotten positive remarks from you guys. Mare Odomo, a Seattle artist, told me to make the blacks darker, any other suggestions?
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