Some of these are obvious (I love that some guy had the balls to include Red Dawn), others are positively trumped up. Which perhaps makes the point that truly conservative films are truly rare.
Brazil I can actually see. The movie is very anti-bureaucracy, so if you hate "big govt" it will appeal.
The ones that really don't belong are Juno, Groundhog Day, Ghostbusters and A Simple Plan. Master and Commander is also pretty trumped-up. It's a period movie about a sailing ship, so yes, there's a captain and he's in command.
I think the point made about the Incredibles having a conservative message is spot-on. All that talk about "If everyone is special, no one is" really bugged me about that otherwise-good movie.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:The movie is very anti-bureaucracy, so if you hate "big govt" it will appeal.
Except that, as far as I can tell, it's a satirical critique of a very specific historical period in Britain in much the same way that "V for Vendetta" was. It's anti-authoritarian, but it's specifically anti-fascist. An American conservative wouldn't recognize himself on the side of the rebels in that film.
One thing that's very interesting is noting which films are genuinely "conservative" and which have been shoehorned into that box, and then checking the name of the person who made the suggestion. It's rather revealing, and I think says a lot about the reasons the people in question consider themselves "conservative."
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
The interpretations: Juno is about keeping babies. Groundhog day is about being in a monogamous heterosexual relationship. Ghostbusters has the guy from Groundhog day, which gives it an advantage already. Also, it's about fighting demons! I've never seen A Simple Plan, but they like simple things.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Braveheart is kind of an odd choice. A person that leads a primitive insurrection against an occupying force with superior technology, adopting terrorist tactics, and is tortured by that occupying force.
Conservative? Bah, I say.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
No, Ghostbusters is "conservative" because an agency enforcing environmental regulations is the know-nothing antagonist.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:16. Master and Commander (2003): This naval-adventure film starring Russell Crowe is based on the books of Patrick O’Brian, and here’s what A. O. Scott of the New York Times said in his review: “The Napoleonic wars that followed the French Revolution gave birth, among other things, to British conservatism, and Master and Commander, making no concessions to modern, egalitarian sensibilities, is among the most thoroughly and proudly conservative movies ever made. It imagines the [H.M.S.] Surprise as a coherent society in which stability is underwritten by custom and every man knows his duty and his place. I would not have been surprised to see Edmund Burke’s name in the credits.”
Hurm?
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Juno is both pro-choice and pro-life, which partially explains its mass appeal. The girl has the legal option of aborting, but chooses to keep the baby anyway. A "win" for both sides.
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
I was going to suggest both Braveheart and Team America. I was surprised to find both of them listed.
Mucus, you think that Braveheart is an odd choice because it's about "a person that leads a primitive insurrection against an occupying force with superior technology, adopting terrorist tactics. . ." I'd counter and say that the same could be applied to George Washington. Braveheart is ultimately a movie that depicts people willing to fight and stand up for their beliefs against tyranny, especially as the government has become too large and non-representative. It also paints the government as one that doesn't uphold the rights of liberty nor protect its constituents.
Team America, on the other hand, may seem to lampoon both conservatives and liberals, but it really depends on viewpoint. Many convervatives feel that Bush and his cronies NEEDED lampooning. Can someone please tell me how he was supposedly fiscally conservative? Or that war?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
By the time I reached "Team America, World Police" being used as an example of one of the 'best conservative movies' I realized I was reading what may well be the dumbest thing that it is possible for a human being to write. No really, this list is really, really dumb.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: No, Ghostbusters is "conservative" because an agency enforcing environmental regulations is the know-nothing antagonist.
I thought it was because a couple of guys formed a small business that prospered because they weren't being taxed.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aros: I'd counter and say that the same could be applied to George Washington.
That's not a counter, that's agreement Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: By the time I reached "Team America, World Police" being used as an example of one of the 'best conservative movies' I realized I was reading what may well be the dumbest thing that it is possible for a human being to write. No really, this list is really, really dumb.
Really? It seems really clear to me that Tean America, World Police would resonate pretty strongly with a lot of conservatives. I know that several conservative commentators had a lot of praise for it when it came out. I don't get why you think it is stupid to think of it this way. Could you explain?
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
quote: We do not claim that the writers, directors, producers, gaffers, and key grips involved with these films are conservative. We certainly make no such assertion about the actors. Yet the results are indisputable: Conservatives enjoy these films because they are great movies that offer compelling messages about freedom, families, patriotism, traditions, and more.
And this in particular:
quote: Once in a blue moon, Hollywood releases a conservative movie, or at least a film that resonates with conservatives in a particular way.
I don't see the problem.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: By the time I reached "Team America, World Police" being used as an example of one of the 'best conservative movies' I realized I was reading what may well be the dumbest thing that it is possible for a human being to write. No really, this list is really, really dumb.
Really? It seems really clear to me that Tean America, World Police would resonate pretty strongly with a lot of conservatives. I know that several conservative commentators had a lot of praise for it when it came out. I don't get why you think it is stupid to think of it this way. Could you explain?
Yeah, the movie is definitely pro-Team America in the end.
On the other hand, the movie flaunts socially conservative sensibilities pretty heavily (as in the sex scene).
One reason I don't think of the movie as conservative is that the liberal-bashing parts are the least funny. Example: Matt Damon's not retarded, he's smarter than most actors. If it had been Affleck , they would have had a point.
I do find it funny when he ironically says "Alec Baldwin! He's the greatest actor in the world!" But that part of the movie is a bit dated now, after Baldwin got out of his slump and has since had some wonderful roles.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I think the Matt Damon thing is hilarious. But, I think I took it differently. To me, it wasn't making fun of Matt Damon, really. It's just a ridiculous thing that they thought was funny that didn't have a barb or larger point behind it.
I'm pretty sure that was the intention, because I've seen an interview with Matt and Trey where that's basically what they said. One turned to the other and said "Matt Damon" and they both lost it.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Some of these are obvious (I love that some guy had the balls to include Red Dawn)
Why is that ballsy? The movie was denounced as a right wing wet dream when it first came out. High schoolers going to the hills and killing commie bastards. Of course it's a conservative movie.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
Some of these are obvious (I love that some guy had the balls to include Red Dawn)
Why is that ballsy? The movie was denounced as a right wing wet dream when it first came out. High schoolers going to the hills and killing commie bastards. Of course it's a conservative movie.
It's ballsy because it's a classic bad movie. The guy had the balls to admit liking Red Dawn non-ironically.
Even Jennifer Grey sucks in Red Dawn. "What you said... was wrong!"
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Some of these are obvious (I love that some guy had the balls to include Red Dawn)
Why is that ballsy? The movie was denounced as a right wing wet dream when it first came out. High schoolers going to the hills and killing commie bastards. Of course it's a conservative movie.
It's ballsy because it's a classic bad movie. The guy had the balls to admit liking Red Dawn non-ironically.
I'm not sure how to say this. I don't mean this in a bad way, but the idea of liking a movie ironically smacks of...let's say aspects of American liberal culture that many in American conservative culture look down on. And, I believe that there is probably a correlation between looking down on those aspects and liking Red Dawn.
Incidentally, I think Red Dawn kicks ass and not ironically. I also know it's not a good movie. But, come on, "Wolverines!"
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
I wouldn't call "Red Dawn" a bad movie. For me it's a "guilty pleasure." Once you get past the over-the-top premise, it's a fun movie to watch.
I feel similarly about Starship Troopers; except in ST there are a lot of sly little touchs where the director seems to equate conservatism with fascism.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:Originally posted by Flying Fish: I wouldn't call "Red Dawn" a bad movie. For me it's a "guilty pleasure." Once you get past the over-the-top premise, it's a fun movie to watch.
I feel similarly about Starship Troopers; except in ST there are a lot of sly little touchs where the director seems to equate conservatism with fascism.
Yeah, fair enough. The way I like Red Dawn isn't the same as the way I like Plan 9. It's more like how I feel about Rambo III or Ice Pirates.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
I'm pretty damn liberal, and I absolutely loved Red Dawn. It was one of my favorite movies as a kid. Granted, I wasn't liberal back then, or at least I didn't know I was.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I'm not sure how to say this. I don't mean this in a bad way, but the idea of liking a movie ironically smacks of...let's say aspects of American liberal culture that many in American conservative culture look down on. And, I believe that there is probably a correlation between looking down on those aspects and liking Red Dawn.
Incidentally, I think Red Dawn kicks ass and not ironically. I also know it's not a good movie. But, come on, "Wolverines!"
Well said, and agreed!
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Uh... do they really want to list 300 as a conservative movie? Spartans practiced infanticide.
That list just makes me feel very, very not conservative.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
300 also has a nation subject to the whims of a corrupt and broken religion, which the hero ignores. I guess because it isn't Christianity it doesn't count.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Are you *actually* conservative? Because the point of the list is not to convert liberals with these movies, but to show other conservatives some movies that they'd like.
As for Spartans practicing infanticide... well a) I don't think that was highlighted in the movie, and the movie isn't historically accurate in all kinds of ways. So I think it's largely irrelevant. They do focus on the children being forced to survive in incredibly harsh conditions, but the overall appeal I can see the movie having is showcasing an extreme, almost cartoonish version of conservative ideals (which does include tough parenting) which you wouldn't actually copy, but enjoy getting to watch in a setting that was so obviously exaggerated that you don't have to worry about whether it makes sense.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Uh... do they really want to list 300 as a conservative movie? Spartans practiced infanticide.
That list just makes me feel very, very not conservative.
Man, that really set me back. Up until this, I had regarded you as one of the leading conservative voices on Hatrack. Imagine my shock!
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: 300 also has a nation subject to the whims of a corrupt and broken religion, which the hero ignores. I guess because it isn't Christianity it doesn't count.
I know. And every single conservative belongs to the monolithic Christian religion that they know is corrupt to the core.
edit:
I think that nearly any movie that has a substantial group of people who succeed or at least accomplish great things through discipline, hard work, and group cohesion instead of them all being special snowflakes is going to be one that resonates with many conservatives. I don't know that this normally makes a good movie though.
edit 2: Thinking about it, I think you could consider 8 Mile a "conservative" movie, which kind of blows my mind a bit.
Posted by iglee (Member # 12455) on :
The film industry is Big Business. So ya know, if you take this question out of the box, turn it sideways, and look at it through the wrong end of binoculars while taking recreational pharmaceuticals, it becomes obvious that all movies could be thought of as Conservative. Because isn’t it the goal of all film makers, even Michael Moore, to make scads of money. And isn’t trying to make scads of money what Conservatives are usually thought of as wanting to do?
Edited to add: This forum needs a “being facetious” or “tongue in cheek” smiley.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
BlackBlade sits on the sidelines terrified to even take a breath. Can MrSquicky continue his perfect streak of aces? A smile briefly visits the corner of his mouth, dispite the tension. Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
One hilarious bit from the Braveheart commentary:
quote:Six years later, amid the ruins of the Twin Towers, Gibson’s message resonated with a generation of American youth who signed up to fight terrorists, instead of inviting them to join a “constructive dialogue.” Liberals have never forgiven Gibson since.
Um, liberals don't hate Mel Gibson because of Braveheart. They hate him (a) because of Passion of the Christ, (b) because anyone with a conscience should be horrified by the man's behavior.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I remember a column a while back talking about the bizarre recommendations conservative politicians, I think it might have been Newt Gingrich or maybe Pat Robertson, suggested as family friendly movies. Two that I can recall where True Lies and Braveheart. And the quip for Braveheart was something like "Hey, the king throws a gay guy out a window. How could Pat Robertson not like that?"
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Originally posted by Destineer: One hilarious bit from the Braveheart commentary:
quote:Six years later, amid the ruins of the Twin Towers, Gibson’s message resonated with a generation of American youth who signed up to fight terrorists, instead of inviting them to join a “constructive dialogue.” Liberals have never forgiven Gibson since.
Um, liberals don't hate Mel Gibson because of Braveheart. They hate him (a) because of Passion of the Christ, (b) because anyone with a conscience should be horrified by the man's behavior.
A lot of the commentary is cringe-inducingly bad and I think represents the sort of bad qualities that it looks like some here are imputing to all conversatives.
I really liked the one for Groundhog Day, though:
quote:This putatively wacky comedy about Bill Murray as an obnoxious weatherman cursed to relive the same day over and over in a small Pennsylvania town, perhaps for eternity, is in fact a sophisticated commentary on the good and true. Theologians and philosophers across the ideological spectrum have embraced it. For the conservative, the moral of the tale is that redemption and meaning are derived not from indulging your “authentic” instincts and drives, but from striving to live up to external and timeless ideals. Murray begins the film as an irony-soaked narcissist, contemptuous of beauty, art, and commitment. His journey of self-discovery leads him to understand that the fads of modernity are no substitute for the permanent things.
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
The Patriot rather than Braveheart, and Hanoi Hilton (1987). The Patriot wasn't very good, and was almost a remake of Braveheart, but I think it would have more resonance with a modern American conservative.
Hanoi Hilton has a brutal portrayal of Jane Fonda, and has a scene in which the prisoners are given -- for the first time in years -- letters from home. Or, they are given empty envelopes, and told that they will not get the letters (as a form of psychological warfare). It backfires when one of the men (most of the prisoners were naval aviators) notices that his letter bears a stamp commemorating Apollo 11. These men, who had been incommunicado for years, thus learn of the successful moon landing.
Does anybody watch Braveheart or 300 and feel like it's a "conservative" movie? Or Lord of the Rings????
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
I'll be interested to see what they are going to do with the Red Dawn remake that will be coming out.
It looks like it will be coming out after MGM is done with its Chapter 11 reorganization.
I was kind of surprised to see Juno on the list as well. I know the girl decides to keep the baby, but how does that make it a Conservative movie? What about the pre-marital sex? Or divorce?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Braveheart and 300 definitely. Lord of the Rings, no. That was just someone trying to twist something popular around to support the largely unsupportable Iraq war.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
With 300 I was just like, oooo, look at all of those abs. OOOOO. So cobbled and perfect. With L of the R I was thinking, ooooo, this movie is good, and ooooo that dude's eyes are huge and Aragorn is handsome. With Braveheart, it's mostly wondering about the kilts.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: By the time I reached "Team America, World Police" being used as an example of one of the 'best conservative movies' I realized I was reading what may well be the dumbest thing that it is possible for a human being to write. No really, this list is really, really dumb.
Really? It seems really clear to me that Tean America, World Police would resonate pretty strongly with a lot of conservatives. I know that several conservative commentators had a lot of praise for it when it came out. I don't get why you think it is stupid to think of it this way. Could you explain?
Because Team America follows the same premise that South Park's afghanistan episode follows: it spends the most time brutally mocking the fallout and stupidity of america's Bush-era cowboy-mentality diplomacy and international involvement, and is actually stringently mocking conservatives alongside the weenie liberals who get so much traction violently opposing any attempt at do-goodery.
Basically, the way that this conservative is hailing this movie as one of the top 25 'conservative movies ever made' is like profoundly unintentional self-loathing, since they seem to have let it go entirely over their heads that most of the satire of the entire movie (short of, perhaps, the jabs at KJI) is aimed at them and their armchair generalissimo ilk, and both of the authors adamantly laugh at pretty much anyone who insists that they are either conservative OR liberal or that their work promotes either end of the spectrum. The way this article's author writes it, it basically screams to me that he's promoting this movie as a great conservative movie because he doesn't understand it's making fun of his side with equal measure. To champion a movie as a 'great movie for our side!' because you're apparently too dumb to see that it mostly makes fun of you as a stereotype (the movie's name is literally 'team america: world police' ffs) is imbecilic.
The merits of the movie as 'championing conservatism' seem to have been inspired by the author liking how it called the liberal hollywood elite a bunch of fags. It's stupid. It's just a good individual example of what's wrong with this article in general, which includes but is not limited to blindly inferring a pro-conservative message in silly ways for most of these movies.
There's another big one, but I'll wait on that. I just want people to understand how particularly dumb the TA:WP listing is.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geraine: I was kind of surprised to see Juno on the list as well. I know the girl decides to keep the baby, but how does that make it a Conservative movie? What about the pre-marital sex? Or divorce?
It doesn't. This one made me roll my eyes as well. I really want to share this article with people I know who could think up a way better list from their knowledge of cinematic themes and storytelling. In ten minutes.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: By the time I reached "Team America, World Police" being used as an example of one of the 'best conservative movies' I realized I was reading what may well be the dumbest thing that it is possible for a human being to write. No really, this list is really, really dumb.
Really? It seems really clear to me that Tean America, World Police would resonate pretty strongly with a lot of conservatives. I know that several conservative commentators had a lot of praise for it when it came out. I don't get why you think it is stupid to think of it this way. Could you explain?
Because Team America follows the same premise that South Park's afghanistan episode follows: it spends the most time brutally mocking the fallout and stupidity of america's Bush-era cowboy-mentality diplomacy and international involvement, and is actually stringently mocking conservatives alongside the weenie liberals who get so much traction violently opposing any attempt at do-goodery.
Basically, the way that this conservative is hailing this movie as one of the top 25 'conservative movies ever made' is like profoundly unintentional self-loathing, since they seem to have let it go entirely over their heads that most of the satire of the entire movie (short of, perhaps, the jabs at KJI) is aimed at them and their armchair generalissimo ilk, and both of the authors adamantly laugh at pretty much anyone who insists that they are either conservative OR liberal or that their work promotes either end of the spectrum. The way this article's author writes it, it basically screams to me that he's promoting this movie as a great conservative movie because he doesn't understand it's making fun of his side with equal measure. To champion a movie as a 'great movie for our side!' because you're apparently too dumb to see that it mostly makes fun of you as a stereotype (the movie's name is literally 'team america: world police' ffs) is imbecilic.
The merits of the movie as 'championing conservatism' seem to have been inspired by the author liking how it called the liberal hollywood elite a bunch of fags. It's stupid. It's just a good individual example of what's wrong with this article in general, which includes but is not limited to blindly inferring a pro-conservative message in silly ways for most of these movies.
There's another big one, but I'll wait on that. I just want people to understand how particularly dumb the TA:WP listing is.
errr...I think you are really missing the point in like 3 different ways.
First, this is not a list of pro-conservative movies. It's one of movies that resonate with conservatives.
Two, you don't seem to get one of the central points of the movie. I think you're trying to fit the satire into your rather limited partisan bias, rather than seeing what was intended. Along with poking fun at absurd cowboy-ism and ignorant interventions - which, although this may surprise some, is actually something that many conservatives also have a problem with - it also strongly mocks the idea that violence is never the answer.
The d/p/a speech is the real statement of this and that's a cruder, less pure (which I think makes it more accurate) version of the dogs/sheep/wolves idea of the use of force that is a conservative mainstay.
There are plenty of conservatives who are, for lack of a better word, stupid. There are also plenty who are not. They do actually get that the movie is in part making fun of them. They also get that the movie speaks to the need, in some cases, for world police and that you do sometimes need people with guns to sort out other people with guns so that you can have people who have the space and freedom to build things while not worrying about it.
There are movies on that list that really don't belong there, but I think your problems with this one are more indicative of your own flaws than that of the list.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:First, this is not a list of pro-conservative movies. It's one of movies that resonate with conservatives.
Yeah, you're wrong. It's a list of what they consider the best conservative movies. That's why they literally named it "The Best Conservative Movies." 'resonating with conservatives' is one of the reasons listed for why a movie might make this list.
Here is an actual quote from that list's intro.
quote:we decided to produce a list of the 25 best conservative movies of the last 25 years.
Not 'the best movies for conservatives.' They explicitly state the best conservative movies. The name of the list is The Best Conservative Movies. Sorry.
quote:There are movies on that list that really don't belong there, but I think your problems with this one are more indicative of your own flaws than that of the list.
I'm sure you would; you have weird interpretations of me and my motives and biases constantly. I know that not all conservatives are stupid. The ones responsible for this list are. Coming up with Team America: World Police as one of the top 25 listings in a list called "The Best Conservative Movies" (not 'The Movies That Resonate The Most With Conservatives,' to remind you), then you're in trouble.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
In the LOR blurb they mention Wormtongue who, in the movie, accuses Eomer of "warmongering." Obviously, Wormtongue must be a liberal, while Eomer is a conservative.
Kind of like Dr. Seuss was a conservative, because he was also a warmonger, and Charles Lindberg was a liberal.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
Dude, rollainm already posted a quote that shows MrS is right about the purpose of the list.
Anyway, however you feel about Team America, you must admit that there are far worse picks on the list. A Simple Plan and Groundhog Day are probably the two most absurd.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
Interestingly, there's a strong correlation between how much they had to stretch to get a movie on the list, and how good the movie actually is. The best (and maybe the only good) movies on the list are ones that don't really fit the theme.
In contrast, think of what a distinguished list we could put together of liberal movies.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
As I said, I think Groundhog Day is a great fit. It's almost a Frank Capra film in sensibility.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Why is that ballsy? The movie was denounced as a right wing wet dream when it first came out. High schoolers going to the hills and killing commie bastards. Of course it's a conservative movie.
Who denounced it? I'll shoot 'em in the neck.
Red Dawn was awesome.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
I disagree that there's anything about Capra-type sensibilities that appeals to conservatives in particular (as opposed to liberals). It's the sort of thing that conservatives think liberals don't like. But everybody likes It's A Wonderful Life, and everybody likes Groundhog Day.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Destineer: Interestingly, there's a strong correlation between how much they had to stretch to get a movie on the list, and how good the movie actually is. The best (and maybe the only good) movies on the list are ones that don't really fit the theme.
In contrast, think of what a distinguished list we could put together of liberal movies.
I don't know about that? I think you could get plenty of awesome movies in a list that fits the theme of conservative sensibilities.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Destineer: I disagree that there's anything about Capra-type sensibilities that appeals to conservatives in particular (as opposed to liberals). It's the sort of thing that conservatives think liberals don't like. But everybody likes It's A Wonderful Life, and everybody likes Groundhog Day.
I don't like It's a Wonderful Life, but this is because it's my job to have warped opinions about stuff. It's just- There's nothing wrong with being a librarian!!! And people need to respect people like George who make the world a better place! They need to thank them every day all the time so they don't want to kill themselves.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:They need to thank them every day all the time so they don't want to kill themselves.
Generally, it's not really anyone else's responsibility to determine your self-worth.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
`I reckon. But George made life so good for those people and gave up everything for them. They should have showed him appreciation ages ago, but that's just my weird opinion on things.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by JonHecht: The interpretations: Juno is about keeping babies. Groundhog day is about being in a monogamous heterosexual relationship. Ghostbusters has the guy from Groundhog day, which gives it an advantage already. Also, it's about fighting demons! I've never seen A Simple Plan, but they like simple things.
God I love this crap. It's such pure crap- it's impossible not to enjoy.
I especially liked the one about Forest Gump. It's conservative because he avoided the "dangerous values of the 60's." Not stopping to mention that he avoided *all* political values, because the movie was about purity of spirit.
And let's not even dare to suggest that Forest Gump, as a political statement regarding the 60's, is really a deconstruction of the messages of peace and tolerance and love coming from intolerant, violent, and hateful people, and is really just a commentary on the selfishness of people who believed themselves to be doing the righteous good. That's not a very political message at all.
According to this asshat, "Mad Men," is apparently a conservative TV show because it does the same thing with the same period. Because *no-one* who was truly a liberal would *ever* deconstruct the 60's, even 50 years later when it is ripe for analysis and *gasp* reflection.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
psst also lookat this
quote:The Pursuit of Happyness (2006): Based on the life of self-made millionaire Chris Gardner (Will Smith), this film provides the perfect antidote to Wall Street and other Hollywood diatribes depicting the world of finance as filled with nothing but greed. After his wife leaves him, Gardner can barely pay the rent. He accepts an unpaid internship at a San Francisco brokerage, with the promise of a real job if he outperforms the other interns and passes his exams. Gardner never succumbs to self-pity, even when he and his young son take refuge in a homeless shelter. They’re black, but there’s no racial undertone or subtext. Gardner is just an incredibly hard-working, ambitious, and smart man who wants to do better for himself and his son.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
:facepalm:
Posted by Misha McBride (Member # 6578) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: I know that not all conservatives are stupid. The ones responsible for this list are. Coming up with Team America: World Police as one of the top 25 listings in a list called "The Best Conservative Movies" (not 'The Movies That Resonate The Most With Conservatives,' to remind you), then you're in trouble.
There are also a significant number of conservatives who don't get Colbert's satire and think he really means what he says. I suspect the person who selected Team America for that list is one of them.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:There are also a significant number of conservatives who don't get Colbert's satire and think he really means what he says.
Some of these are obvious (I love that some guy had the balls to include Red Dawn)
Why is that ballsy? The movie was denounced as a right wing wet dream when it first came out. High schoolers going to the hills and killing commie bastards. Of course it's a conservative movie.
It's ballsy because it's a classic bad movie. The guy had the balls to admit liking Red Dawn non-ironically.
I'm not sure how to say this. I don't mean this in a bad way, but the idea of liking a movie ironically smacks of...let's say aspects of American liberal culture that many in American conservative culture look down on. And, I believe that there is probably a correlation between looking down on those aspects and liking Red Dawn.
Incidentally, I think Red Dawn kicks ass and not ironically. I also know it's not a good movie. But, come on, "Wolverines!"
Fabulous movie. I loved it when it came out, and I rewatched it recently and still loved it.
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
I laughed my way through half the list. This whole thing could have been written by the Onion and it would not be much different.
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:There are also a significant number of conservatives who don't get Colbert's satire and think he really means what he says.
Baloney.
Not baloney. All you need is enough conservative family friended on FB and you find this out soon enough.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I think he might have been taking issue with the qualifier 'significant'. A casual survey of family members of Facebook is hardly reliable, Parkour, for two extremely good reasons I can think of without breaking a mental sweat that I'm absolutely certain are valid when discussing representative samples, and at least one other one that I'd be willing to place a small wager on.
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
This is the same group that has significant numbers who think Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya. It is not hard to find significant numbers of the same group who have quoted or even watched colbert without realizing that he was not a genuine conservative pundit.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Is there some reason that should be readily apparent to me but isn't ... any reason at all why these people would have Juno, Brazil, TA:WP, and TPoH in the list but I'm not seeing Saving Private Ryan? Is there some sort of right-wing objection to that movie I'm unaware of?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Total guess: Both Spielberg and Tom Hanks have been pretty vocal about their democratic politics. That said, one would think that would knock-off Braveheart too for the anti-Semite thing, but the list is a combination of suggestions from different people so we don't really need consistency.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Some conservapedia at it:
quote:Tom Hanks is a liberal, big time. Seeing the world through the atheistic eyes of a "retard", with sermonizing about civil rights, was a liberal distortion and fantasy. I'm sure we all know people of low IQs, and they don't think and act like Forrest Gump. For starters, often they have strong religious faith. As I recall from the first half, Gump's perspective was without any genuine expression of faith.--Aschlafly 01:34, 20 July 2007 (EDT) ... Based on the discussion above, it appears that the Saving Private Ryan hero (Hanks) never conveys the --Aschlafly 15:23, 20 July 2007 (EDT)faith of the person he portrays. So my expectation was correct. Faith is relegated to a little window-dressing, something to give the movie an appearance of depth, but not fit for the hero himself. Did Hanks and Spielberg, two liberals probably lacking in any experience with the military or genuine interest in it, convey the soldiers' true feelings and attitudes? Not in the clip I saw from the movie. Instead, they conveyed a mostly purposeless, atheistic view of war, with overemphasis on the casualties. It's a liberal message.--Aschlafly 15:23, 20 July 2007 (EDT)
Still, the entire combination of people each individually not opting to place that movie anywhere in there? I mean, Juno. It's a list that stretches to fit Juno in there, inexplicably.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
It's hard to say without being privy to their voting scheme. It could be entirely possible that they had a voting scheme that favours unique first choices versus shared lower ranked choices.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Parkour:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:There are also a significant number of conservatives who don't get Colbert's satire and think he really means what he says.
Baloney.
Not baloney. All you need is enough conservative family friended on FB and you find this out soon enough.
There are also some conservatives who recognize that Colbert is being satirical but think that Colbert's tongue-in-cheek mock-conservative arguments still frequently outclass totally sincere liberal ones. A friend of mine is like that. He quotes Colbert all the time, and if one was not paying close attention they might easily think that he didn't realize it was satire.
Also, what Rakeesh said.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: There are also some conservatives who recognize that Colbert is being satirical but think that Colbert's tongue-in-cheek mock-conservative arguments still frequently outclass totally sincere liberal ones.
::raises hand:: That'd be my view.
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
Saving Private Ryan is a good-enough war movie, but is it a movie which is particularly "conservative"?
It seemed to be geared more toward honoring "the greatest generation" than it was toward honoring any particular philosophy.
How about Idiocracy or the Sand Pebbles? Do you think they're conservative?
Posted by Misha McBride (Member # 6578) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I think he might have been taking issue with the qualifier 'significant'. A casual survey of family members of Facebook is hardly reliable, Parkour, for two extremely good reasons I can think of without breaking a mental sweat that I'm absolutely certain are valid when discussing representative samples, and at least one other one that I'd be willing to place a small wager on.
I should have written significant minority instead. When I said significant I meant less than half but more than negligible, couldn't make my brain produce the correct wording at the time.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: There are also some conservatives who recognize that Colbert is being satirical but think that Colbert's tongue-in-cheek mock-conservative arguments still frequently outclass totally sincere liberal ones.
I've seen this. It's utterly adorable. It's practically an admission of how impressionable they are to the very culture of propagandizing and polarizing punditry that Colbert gets so much mileage out of satirizing.
The link to the colbert study on conservatives is true, and (to me) unsurprising. There have been many times that hard righties who stew in the environment of political talk media get into Colbert with absolutely no impression or comprehension that Colbert is satirizing the conservative punditry that they absorb with earnest.
Tom Delay once even cluelessly cited Colbert as a defender and a foe of the liberal media establishment, for putting the hot irons to his foe Greenwald in an interview with hard hitting questions like "Who hates America more, you or Michael Moore?"
Later, when someone clued them in, I guess, the accolades were quietly taken down.
quote:Originally posted by Flying Fish: Saving Private Ryan is a good-enough war movie, but is it a movie which is particularly "conservative"?
By all the metrics that the article uses to promote a movie as providing, promoting, championing, or resonating with conservative causes, SPR is an excellent candidate. Given how well it actually DID resonate in those ways, and its memorable exposure, its lack of placement on a list which has multiple poor entries (that the authors make an incredulous stretch to conceptualize as having a conservative message) is telling!
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I should have written significant minority instead. When I said significant I meant less than half but more than negligible, couldn't make my brain produce the correct wording at the time.
No you shouldn't have, because - again - the tool used to measure, the group being measured, and the person doing the measuring are all dubiously objective or representative to say the least for the conclusion you'd be trying to draw in this case.
[ January 28, 2011, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Rakeesh ]
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Even if it can be clearly shown that there's a non-negligible percentage of people who thought colbert is genuine? That's a lil' strange.
Aaanyway.
All this list actually proves (because it sure doesn't hold its own as a list of The Great Conservative Movies that Resonate with Conservatives) is that people have no trouble placing their own biases and viewpoints into art. This happens on both sides, and it is important when interpreting art to realize your own potential bias. Otherwise you get some pretty poor readings of things. See: Most of this list.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
If for no other reason, Saving Private Ryan misses the list because of Barry Pepper's character. Conservatives don't like seeing a devout christian unapologetically killing people contrasted against a main character that is so deeply conflicted about it.
As to Colbert, the same was true for Archie Bunker. He had a following of people who believed he was a font of wisdom, and liked seeing him put Michael Stivic in his place.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: Conservatives don't like seeing a devout christian unapologetically killing people contrasted against a main character that is so deeply conflicted about it.
I'm not a Christian, so take what I say with that relative grain of salt.
But man, I really don't have any problem seeing someone unapologetically killing Nazis. I have no difficulty accepting that someone as a protagonist, and a good person.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I've got no problem with your general sentiment, but realize that the average German soldier was not evil any more than the average American soldier was. Lots of good people died on both sides of WWII, just like any war.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I don't know Xavier. The German army at the time very actively sought and employed sociopathic murderers to a number of units. On average, I don't know if it balances out. You could say the "typical" German soldier was not any more evil. Particularly since the typical German soldier was probably a little relieved when they lost the war, and hoped to surrender, if necessary, to western allied forces.
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
Here's a trivia question for you -- who said this: ................................... "I like shooting, and I love hunting. But I never did enjoy killing anybody. It's my job. If I don't get those bastards, then they're gonna kill a lot of these kids dressed up like Marines. That's the way I look at it."* ...................................... And for the record, the Barry Pepper character in SPR didn't bother me. At one point in the movie he even says something to the effect that if they could go on a mission to get him and his rifle within 500 yards of Hitler, the war would be over and that would save a lot of lives.
quote:Even if it can be clearly shown that there's a non-negligible percentage of people who thought colbert is genuine? That's a lil' strange.
It's not remotely strange when you remember what I said twice, which was to call into question this specific situation: the person doing the measuring, the means they're using to measure, etc.
Put more directly, I'm disinclined to lend much weight to anecdotes that start or involve, "Lots of my conservative family members on Facebook..." It's a frankly silly standard, one that doesn't deserve to be accorded respect for use in anything but discovering what that particular person's family put on their Facebook pages. I frankly wonder if your lust for the zing hasn't made what seems to me a pretty basic point - 'watch out for bias!' - get fogged up a bit.
I only say that because you won't find me anywhere saying, "There are no significant numbers of conservatives who think Colbert is genuine," only my suggesting that this particular way of backing that thought up is pretty flimsy.
Hell, doesn't Dan_Frank (or am I thinking of someone else?) get taken out to the rhetorical woodshed, so to speak, for conflating 'liberals' with 'liberals in my family'?
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: I've got no problem with your general sentiment, but realize that the average German soldier was not evil any more than the average American soldier was. Lots of good people died on both sides of WWII, just like any war.
You don't think fighting for the Nazi regime made them morally worse than the Americans, regardless of their personal character traits?
Fighting on the side of the aggressors in an unjust war is wrong. I suppose it was more forgivable by the time D-Day rolled around, since they were on the defensive at that point. But still, they were defending land they'd unjustly invaded.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I'm not sure. Most of the time when it comes to something like that you're brainwashed for ages. Some of the soldiers might have been Hitler youth trained from boyhood to believe they were in the right. Some of them might not have been aware of just how evil the Nazis were. Especially if you're been trained to believe your way is right no matter what. I'm not condoning it. Nazis suck, but, there were bond to be a great deal of soldiers who were not evil and didn't think of themselves as the aggressor.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote: Fighting on the side of the aggressors in an unjust war is wrong. I suppose it was more forgivable by the time D-Day rolled around, since they were on the defensive at that point. But still, they were defending land they'd unjustly invaded.
Comes the question why were they fighting, though. I mean, we can all get on board with the idea that it was an unjust war, check. But exactly what did they know about why they were fighting versus what they could have known, particularly down at the private soldier level? How can you say on a case-by-case basis? You can't, especially at this remove. You don't know what they were told, what they believed, what pressures they felt, if they were conscripted, etc.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Consider the fact that about 18,000,000 German men fought in World War II. Then ask yourself how many of those 18 million you'd consider "evil" if you knew them personally.
By the end of the war, just about every single able bodied German male had fought. People are generally good, and Germans are no exception, despite the atrocities committed by the Nazi's.
Of those 18M, almost 4.5M died. Four and a half million. Any way you slice it, millions of good men lost their lives on the other side of that war.
I don't have any problem with a protagonist giving little thought to the killing of his enemies. I was fine with the sniper in Saving Private Ryan much like I was fine with William Wallace killing his English enemies in Braveheart or countless other examples in movies. To be an effective combatant you pretty much have to dehumanize the enemy. I just don't think we should dehumanize them 60 years after the war is over. We don't gain anything by doing so.
War sucks, and even in your cause is just (like the Americans in WWII), you're still killing human beings.
Added: Yes Orincoro, I do think "typical" better expresses my sentiment than "average" does.
[ January 29, 2011, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:I'm not sure. Most of the time when it comes to something like that you're brainwashed for ages. Some of the soldiers might have been Hitler youth trained from boyhood to believe they were in the right.
This is an interesting point, but I don't think it contradicts what I've said. Being indoctrinated gives you a certain sort of excuse for being a bad or flawed person. Maybe we shouldn't blame you for your moral flaws. But that doesn't mean you don't have them. You're still morally worse than a person who doesn't have those flaws.
quote:Comes the question why were they fighting, though. I mean, we can all get on board with the idea that it was an unjust war, check. But exactly what did they know about why they were fighting versus what they could have known, particularly down at the private soldier level? How can you say on a case-by-case basis? You can't, especially at this remove. You don't know what they were told, what they believed, what pressures they felt, if they were conscripted, etc.
Yeah, for sure, in individual cases I'm sure a substantial portion were ignorant of many of the facts that made their fighting wrong. But still, I don't think these considerations automatically excuse people 100%. Conscription, for example. I think dodging the draft in Vietnam was a morally better thing to do than fighting in that war, although I don't blame people who fought. (There's so much cultural pressure against "cowardly" behavior.)
quote:Consider the fact that about 18,000,000 German men fought in World War II. Then ask yourself how many of those 18 million you'd consider "evil" if you knew them personally.
Well, this isn't really the question. I'm sure I wouldn't have called most 19th-Century slaveholders "evil" if I knew them personally. But they made the wrong choice when they decided to own slaves, and that made them worse people than they would've been if they didn't own slaves.
quote:War sucks, and even in your cause is just (like the Americans in WWII), you're still killing human beings.
Absolutely. I don't think morally compromised people "deserve" to die in wars. I think the Barry Pepper character was too callous about it, myself. But I do think the Allied soldiers had a moral "leg up" on their opponents because more of them were fighting for good reasons.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Absolutely. I don't think morally compromised people "deserve" to die in wars. I think the Barry Pepper character was too callous about it, myself. But I do think the Allied soldiers had a moral "leg up" on their opponents because more of them were fighting for good reasons.
Yeah, I don't think we disagree by very much here, if at all. Interesting discussion though.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:But man, I really don't have any problem seeing someone unapologetically killing Nazis. I have no difficulty accepting that someone as a protagonist, and a good person.
Bear in mind, we aren't talking about whether the movie is christian, but about whether it would be seen by conservatives as being in line with their views.
My point is not that a christian character was a soldier. No doubt the other members of the platoon were christian as well (aside from Adam Goldberg's character), but this guy was portrayed as a capital "C" Christian. A negative stereotype. It was the way the movie dealt with the character, showing him to be a fundamentalist, preachy Christian, who was unconflicted about his role as a killer.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Bear in mind, we aren't talking about whether the movie is christian, but about whether it would be seen by conservatives as being in line with their views.
Going to war to kill the badguys and liberate people.
The answer is 'very yes.'
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Hurm. You could do a check list of liberal and conservative things for pretty much any movie. Just like at Incredibles. Doesn't it seem kind of liberal to help old ladies dodge the red tape to get the money they need? Or at least kind of nice. And liberals and conservatives value family and families working together. And it could be considered feminist for Helen to want to help Bob instead of him doing it all on his own. And he was the one who wanted to settle down and she wanted to keep kicking booty. I don't think these folks understand movies very well.
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
This discussion kinda reminds me of The Big Red One.
Griff (Mark Hammill) has lost all desire to kill the enemy. He discusses this with his immediate superior (Lee Marvin). Lee Marvin gives him his best arguments in favor of continuing to kill the nazis.
In an analogic scene later in the movie, an unnamed nazi soldier has lost all desire to kill the allies. He discusses this with his immediate superior. His superior officer shoots him dead.
And as the movie ends, Griff and his unit liberate a concentration camp, and what he sees there helps Griff regain his stomach for killing nazis.
The writer-director, Sam Fuller, was (to my eyes) quite the liberal, in the sense a lot of that generation (George McGovern, JFK, Scoop Jackson) were also liberal.
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
Just read that the Red Dawn remake will feature Chinese invaders, and will be set in Michigan.
No word yet on whether Patrick Swayze will do a cameo -- his ghost could tip over some lump of c4 which Jennifer Grey is shaping on a potter's wheel or something.....
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
What I get from this list, is that conservatives like militaristic movies that glorify war and warriors? Is that an unfair assessment?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yes, I think.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: [QUOTE] My point is not that a christian character was a soldier. No doubt the other members of the platoon were christian as well (aside from Adam Goldberg's character), but this guy was portrayed as a capital "C" Christian. A negative stereotype. It was the way the movie dealt with the character, showing him to be a fundamentalist, preachy Christian, who was unconflicted about his role as a killer.
Look at the cast though. Most of them are negative stereotypes. A mouthy Brooklyn boy, a mousy corporal pansy intellectual, a hotheaded sergeant, a grinning smarmy Jew, a big dumb Italian, a hayseed bible thumper, a coward cracking under the pressure of command. The only ones that aren't fairly negatively portrayed at some point or another are Ryan and Wade, the medic, one of whom is set up to be loved so that he can die, and the other who has to be basically the ideal citizen soldier from Iowa who shows up at the end. The point of the movie is that these flaws don't seem to matter because they all manage to find their human feelings and deal with each other through times of great stress and uncertainty. If they had all been perfect, nobody would have cared. So, the fact that everybody is portrayed in positive and in negative lights is just the message of the movie. Everybody has the private war inside them, not just on the outside.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Orincoro,
All true, but my comment was about what element of the movie would prevent a self proclaimed conservative from including the movie in their list.
Schafly's explanation is that "Faith is relegated to a little window-dressing, something to give the movie an appearance of depth, but not fit for the hero himself." That fits, but in and of itself a lack of depiction of faith doesn't discredit the movie. It's the way faith is depicted that is a turn off.
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