Though he hasn't put it in words, most everyone is treating this as a visual representation that Martin has finally slayed the beast! Given how close we are to the release date, it's not a moment too soon! Hopefully they don't have much editing or what not to do to get it to the printers, so we can actually have it in July.
I wanted to make a separate thread for this for everyone to discuss the next book, but without clogging the thread for the HBO show. So here's where you can post theories, unanswered questions, and when the time comes, where we can discuss the book itself. Unlike times in years past, there won't be a bait-and-switch with a release date that gets pushed way back. Enjoy everyone, the long-awaited day is upon us!
Edit to add: this is now the dance discussion spoiler thread.
[ July 12, 2011, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
You beat me to it, Lyrhawn!
Yay! The Dance is done!
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I, for one, do not trust a "visual representation"...GRRM has done much to earn my distrust.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
He's also said in interviews elsewhere that he really hopes his next books won't take as long, but he also said that Winds of Winter will take at least three years. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that the next ones won't take as long...but that sort of depends on where Martin puts his priorities. Look at how fast he wrote the first three books. Clearly he is capable of doing it, but these two were just especially difficult for a number of reasons.
We know he already has like 300 pages of it done from material pushed from Feast and Dance. The question is how he'll juggle writing duties with his other interests. He's said plainly that he has dozens of other short stories and several novels that he wants to write that aren't related to Song of Ice and Fire at all. If he chooses to ignore Song to work on those, it could take a long time. If he decides to push them out to get the whole thing done so he can move on, we might get them sooner. We might also get them sooner if there's an NFL lockout next season. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Ty has said on Facebook that the book is done and delivered to Bantam.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:We know he already has like 300 pages of it done from material pushed from Feast and Dance.
Five years ago, we knew that Dance was pretty much already finished.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:We know he already has like 300 pages of it done from material pushed from Feast and Dance.
Five years ago, we knew that Dance was pretty much already finished.
Single incidents are not reflective of a pattern.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
There is that, indeed. It may seem like a long time, buy he basically rewrote it from scratch since them at least once. And good thing, too, Feast would have been well served to have the same kind of rewrite. Of course, by then everyone would have lost interest.
Some books are hard to write. And te situation in Dance could go do many ways... It's not a simple story.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Not having to juggle with events that have already happen, by which I mean, not having to write half a story, then write a second one that occurs concurrently with the first, will probably be a lot less time consuming. I think at this point, if he went to Bantam to say "You know, I think Winds needs to be TWO books..." they'd probably have him shot.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Does Bantam have a staff of professional assassins, or would they contract that out?
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
The secretaries there all pack heat.
You missed your deadline? Know why they call it that?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
That got a genuine laugh from me.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I think at this point, if he went to Bantam to say "You know, I think Winds needs to be TWO books..." they'd probably have him shot.
With gigantic guns made of platinum, that launch rolls of hundred dollar bills?
I mean, yes, the length of time it's been taking him is aggravating and all, but even so, it's not exactly like they're losing money on the things. The more of them he writes, the more of them people buy, the more money all involved make.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I think at this point, if he went to Bantam to say "You know, I think Winds needs to be TWO books..." they'd probably have him shot.
With gigantic guns made of platinum, that launch rolls of hundred dollar bills?
I mean, yes, the length of time it's been taking him is aggravating and all, but even so, it's not exactly like they're losing money on the things. The more of them he writes, the more of them people buy, the more money all involved make.
Sure, but there's also the fact that his continual writing difficulties have caused Bantam untold headaches. I've read interviews with his editor and other staff at Bantam. They're highly frustrated. I mean, they understand how the process works, but it's a major headache. I think you also have to consider how many people won't buy Dance who bought Feast and simply gave up because it took too long. Several people on Hatrack have already said they wouldn't. Whether they end up holding off or not is a matter for the future, but there are a lot of angry people who turned away from the series, and that'll cost Bantam money.
They'll probably make it back from people who buy the first book because of the HBO series, but, how many of those people will actually make it to the fifth book? A fraction, would be my guess.
I'm sure George will go to Bantam with whatever other novels he wants to write, but if he stretches it out any more, and takes another half decade, I don't think the response will be "Oh goody, another book!"
I think the people who do the whole "He better not pull a Jordan on us!" thing are pretty tactless, but, I understand the feeling. I don't agree with the contingent that seems to think he should just spend all day writing - that's not how writing often works. But I DO worry about the series being left unfinished, and I don't think it's an unfair thing to worry about.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Personally, I don't put an emotional expectation (except hope) on such artistic endeavors. I also don't hold my breath (anyone remember Lovelock?). What I do do, is expect authors to live up to their promises, and if there is a little hick up, to keep us informed.
GRRM made big promises which were not kept, and then left the same painfully out of date announcement on his official website for years.
Meanwhile he updated his blog almost daily with what TV he was watching.
Don't get me wrong, I'll prolly get Dance, but not until the whole damn series is over and done with. Then I will read them all and say good riddance.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I am pessimistically optimistic.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
You know, I was just reading A Game of Thrones again.
And this time? This time I hate, hate, hate Catelyn. I liked her the first time I read it. But this time she annoys me with her every appearance. I am not sure what happened.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
This is the part where I smile smugly. Since I couldn't get past page 250 of A Game of Thrones (I tried reading it years ago, with two kids under four at home... it just wasn't happening), it's easy enough for me to wait to read them until the story is finished. No whining about how long it's taking, or how he's wasting his time. I learned my lesson from Stephen King's Dark Tower series.
Though I'm sure it will be wonderful when I finally do get to read it all. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I'll read the new book. But I'm not going to pay for it.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
I might pick it up from the library. Plus, there is talk that my library will be getting books for the kindle. I don't know if I will bother though. Don't get me wrong, I think his books are very well written. However, they are just so depressing, I can't bring myself to read them again. If they all came out in a normal span of years, I would have kept reading them because of his skill at writing, and my desire to know what happens next. When I have to wait so many years between books I forget what happened. With another author, I'd just reread the series...but I just have no wish to relive his books.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: You know, I was just reading A Game of Thrones again.
And this time? This time I hate, hate, hate Catelyn. I liked her the first time I read it. But this time she annoys me with her every appearance. I am not sure what happened.
Yeah I had the same experience, and I do know what happened.
The problem is that every decision Catelyn makes is wrong. But not in the way that Cersei's decisions are wrong. Cat is trying to make good decisions, and she's generally trying to be a decent person. Even the first read through we know a few times where she misestimates someone (Tyrion, specifically) but on subsequent readthroughs we realize that pretty much every single time she does anything, she screws something up.
She's paved a road to hell that would rival even the most impressive interstate highway.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Actually, you're right. That's true. From her first scene, I knew what her pushing would cause, and I deeply disliked it. Even if she seemed reasonable the first time around.
And her actions towards Jon, which annoyed me the first time, made me really dislike her now.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I never warmed to her because of the spelling of her name. "Catelyn" is a spelling that didn't appear until the 1970s and it's uber-trendy. Amidst all these other fantasy-like names, it's like she's named Tiffani or Khloe. Very distracting.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Really? Interesting. I have never seen that spelling before the series. It looked like it fit in, when I didn't have that context.
I have better reasons to hate her now.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Her treatment of Jon is annoying, but it IS understandable. Remember when she tried to talk to her husband about it he would not give her any information. Jon is a constant reminder that her husband, who is so well-known for his honor and his faithfulness was not faithful to HER.
That doesn't excuse her. But I can sympathize a little, knowing that it must be really galling to have what is presumed to be her husband's bastard raised alongside her own sons and daughters.
However, Dan makes really great points about how frustrating it is to see her make the wrong choices over and over.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I don't think it is understandable. She shouldn't be angry at Jon for his father's sins. It is weak minded of her to blame an innocent child and let Ned who is guilty get away Scott free.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
You say that it's not understandable, and then you spend the rest of your post explaining her actions, showing that you do understand it.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Do I agree that her reaction is the right one? No, no I don't. And yet, it IS understandable that a human being would react that way. I've seen it before. I'm not apologizing for her. I'm just saying there IS a good explanation for her actions that fits in with what I know and have seen examples of human nature.
It's not rational to blame Jon for his father's sins. And yet, it is the type of thing people do.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
m_p_h...I was using the "to be sympathetic to or compatible with" definition of the word "understandable" and not the, I do not comprehend the meaning one...
I in no way sympathize with Kat's actions towards Jon, and in fact her naked hatred of an innocent made **spoilers** her death quite a bit easier on me to deal with.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: m_p_h...I was using the "to be sympathetic to or compatible with" definition of the word "understandable" and not the, I do not comprehend the meaning one...
I in no way sympathize with Kat's actions towards Jon, and in fact her naked hatred of an innocent made **spoilers** her death quite a bit easier on me to deal with.
"The rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated"
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
So I was thinking today about why Jon Snow needs to be a much bigger character in the next novel. We don't often, I think, really consider the name of the series; "A Song of Ice and Fire." To me, we're meant to associate Ice with the north, which is to say, the Starks. And we're meant to associate fire with the Targaryens.
SPOILER (Sort of?)
Now, if you believe the theory that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, then he really is the Song of Ice and Fire made manifest. With the story on the back half and working its way toward a conclusion, it strikes me that none of the other Starks are really around to force a confrontation with Dany, unless something REALLY changes in the next couple books.
If the title of the series is meant to be taken in any meaningful way, I think Jon needs to become even bigger a role player.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
I have read the first Jon viewpoint for Dance. I hope you're right, Lyr!
Also, I learned this on the website: Barristan Selmy is a viewpoint character.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
Lyrhawn, I agree, although I am more under the impression that Jon represents Ice, Dany Fire, and the song is theirs.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Mance Rayder!
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
Is that in response to something, umberhulk?
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
He should be the Ice!
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
George R.R. Martin talks about writing A Dance With Dragons. (which, btw, is still complete. And is in fact even more complete than before, with appendices, editing and all other things done.)
He talks about the things he did, and tells a little more about his Meereenese knot, along with hinting about some of the new POV characters.
There's some minor spoilers in the link, but nothing too bad.
Still, it's interesting to get a little more into his story about writing it. I found it interesting, anyway.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Personal guess on the 16(!) POV's. Spoilers, btw:
Those confirmed not in the book: Brienne, Aeron Damphair, Sansa, Arianne, Sam.
Confirmed to be in the book: Dany, Jon, Tyrion (who have nearly half the book between them), Bran, Jaime, Arya, Cercei. Three ironborn characters, two Dornish characters. All three ironborn are previous POV's. We've seen one of the Dornish characters before. The Dornish, I can't guess very strongly, but possibly the guy who was captain of the guard in Feast for Crows is one.
For the ironborn, it's gotta be, by process of elimination, Victarion, Asha, and Theon.
Yeah, Theon's back.
So, that's twelve. We also have four more, including the confirmed Barristan Selmy, and I'd not be terribly surprised if we also got Melisandre. I'd also bet Davos is back.
So, the set should go: Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Theon, Bran, Arya, Jaime, Cercei, Victarion, Davos, the captain of the guard from Dorne (best guess for Dornishman we already know), possibly UnCat (shot in the dark, I know), and then four new characters, including definitely Barristan Selmy, maybe Melisandre, a new Dornish person (maybe Arianne's brother. Actually, that's a good guess), and someone else I have no clue about. And if I'm wrong about Cat, and I probably am, another character in addition who's totally new.
Anyway, right or wrong, this is going to be really fun.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
For the Dornish, I think the new character has to be Arianne's brother across the sea.
For the Ironborn, you're forgetting Euron...but it seems like all the Ironborn, except Theon, were covered pretty well in Feast, and perhaps Asha, who disappeared after the Kingsmoot.
I think a Varys chapter would be fascinating, but I wonder if he's simply too difficult to write as a POV at this point. I'm wondering if he fled with Tyrion.
I think it'd be cool if Howland Reed got his own chapter.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I don't think Howland Reed could be given a chapter. He knows where all the bodies are buried; getting into his head would reveal too much, I think (not that I wouldn't love to be wrong, of course).
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: I don't think Howland Reed could be given a chapter. He knows where all the bodies are buried; getting into his head would reveal too much, I think (not that I wouldn't love to be wrong, of course).
That's why I want him to be a POV character!
If Jon really is Lyanna's son, Howland is the only one who can reveal that information at this point, unless he told Meera and Jojen. Either he eventually shows up, or the theory is wrong, or they just never reveal his parentage, but that can't be right. Martin knows the answer, obviously, withholding it from us would be pretty douchey.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Once upon a time, GRRM actually said that certain people would not be POV characters, including Howland Reed, Littlefinger and Varys. They simply know too much. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It's been too long. I've read all the books, and I only recognize maybe a third of the names above. I remember the current stories of maybe three.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Relevant to the viewpoints discussion, amazon.co.uk has a preview of A Dance With Dragons.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Ahh, Theon. Worse for wear is definitely true, if that's a true chapter.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: It's been too long. I've read all the books, and I only recognize maybe a third of the names above. I remember the current stories of maybe three.
Whereas, despite it being years since I read them, I can still name the characters above that 0Megabyte referred to only by description (such as Areo Hotah and Tristane Martell.)
Definitely hasn't been too long for me. To each their own, of course.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
I'm a little rusty on some of the finer details of the story, which is why I've started rereading the series. It's been just long enough for a reread to be satisfying (and it's made doubly so by the knowledge that once I get caught up I'll only have to wait a week or so to read a brand new installment in the series).
Posted by adenam (Member # 11902) on :
I know I definitely need to reread since I don't remember who some of these people are (like Selmy) but I'm finding it really hard to start. Every time I open GOT I think about the awful things that will happen to everyone and can't continue.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Oh, it isn't that bad, really.
Spoilers:
After all, Ned dies, but that just triggers the North's attempt at succession. Cat dies after believing all her children dead, and watching Robb die, but she comes back as a horrible monstrosity, so it's all good. Robb, the guy we were all rooting for, dies. But hey, he was king for awhile, so all good! Bran is crippled for life, but hey, he gets cool special powers! Sansa is traumatized as her direwolf is killed, her dad killed right in front of her, and then beaten and abused , married off, then stuckunder the thumb of Littlefinger.
Tyrion gets humiliated, loses his nose, and learns his wife wasn't a whore as he was originally told. But hey, he gets to kill Tywin!
Arya is lost, broken, and is now a killer. And she's blind. At least she is a badass.
Jamie lost his hand, his dad (after he was disowned), his son, his lover turns out to be a bitch, but is otherwise in the best condition of all of them at the moment.
Cercei is in jail. But we are all happy about that.
Theon lost Winterfell after capturing it, was never accepted by his family, and is currentt being flayed alive, so they say. It could be worse.
Davos is M.I.A.
All the kings who fought in the war are dead save for Stanis, and he lost.
Dany was abused by her brother, watched him die, lost her husband, unborn son, etc, and has lost her trusted companion. But she is a queen now, and had dragons! Cool, huh?
Jon Snow kinda killed his girlfriend, lost many people he cared about in battle, learned of his family's disaster, etc, but he's in charge of the Night's Watch now! Even if he's stuck between a rock and a hard place. He got off really light. Lighter than Jamie.
So, you know, not so bad when you think about it.
/kidding
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah, it took me (this is Jake, btw) about a week to get through the first hundred pages, specifically because I was dreading what I knew was to come. That happens to me every time I reread the series, really.
Posted by adenam (Member # 11902) on :
The thing that gets me the most is the optimism and naivete of the Starks.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I am seriously considering not finishing reading this series. Your "kidding" summing up of the tragedy which falls in these books is truly and utterly depressing and I'm really not sure if I want to go through that again...sheesh!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by adenam: The thing that gets me the most is the optimism and naivete of the Starks.
I must be a Stark at heart...I still think that I'll be somewhat happy and satisfied when the series is over.
Damn it all, I still have hope!
(Despite the best efforts of Martin to crush hope and everyone it knows)
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
It'll probably finish. The question is, will it be finished by Martin. He had a stroke last year, didnt he? (lol osc)
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
It'll either be finished by Martin or the Literature Elves. He's already said that he finishes it or no one does.
I think what happened at the end of last year was a bad case of the flu or pneumonia, not a stroke.
Either way, I think the last two will come much quicker than the last two. Far fewer road blocks left in his path.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Either way, I think the last two will come much quicker than the last two.
I get what you meant, but this sentence took a bit of rereading. Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: It'll either be finished by Martin or the Literature Elves. He's already said that he finishes it or no one does.
I hope it doesn't come to this, of course, but if he does die before it's been written I hope his estate publishes his notes or something. Or that Martin has a deathbed change of heart and gives Daniel Abraham permission to finish the series.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:He had a stroke last year, didnt he? (lol osc)
Really?
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
Card did (or was it earlier this year? I can't remember). Martin didn't.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Yes, but why is it funny?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:It'll either be finished by Martin or the Literature Elves. He's already said that he finishes it or no one does.
Of course, he's already got a tough row to hoe with me, but this does nothing to endear me to the man or want to invest any more into his series.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Yes, what a terrible inconvenience. Of course, I read the Dune sequels and would have rathered Frank Herbert have that policy.
I'd rather have an incomplete series of excellent novels than a bunch of bad rushed ones. I'd rather nothing than what happened to Dune.
Good for George R. R. Martin. It's his story, after all.
And I don't see anyone here complaining about the last Alvin Maker book. Why does OSC get to get away with going so long? Why did Stephen King get more slack when it came to the Dark Tower?
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Yes, but why is it funny?
Ah; I misunderstood your question. I don't see the humor either.
I'm not terribly upset that Martin is taking so long with the story. If book 5 is of the same quality as 1 or 2, I'll be happy. If it's of the same quality as 3, I'll be ecstatic. If it's more like 4 I'm not sure that I'll bother with 6.
I agree with 0, though, that I'd rather see the series left incomplete than see it bungled by a Kevin J. Anderson-type.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I'd rather have an incomplete series of excellent novels than a bunch of bad rushed ones. I'd rather nothing than what happened to Dune.
While I agree, what has happened to Robert Jordan's story proves this to be a false dichotomy.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
It's his baby, too. It's his thing, and if he feels like he doesn't want to take the risk, isn't that understandable?
Because who's to say he WOULD have a Sanderson, instead of an Anderson?
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
If he had anybody I think it'd be Daniel Abraham, and Abraham is definitely a first rate author.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I think Jake is right. And I know that Ty has George's notes and knows "what happens," as well as anyone but George can.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Yes, but why is it funny?
Just ironic.
Something happened to George. It might not have been a stroke I guess. It was in like Decemeber or something.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
And really, why not have someone else complete them. Low risk, high reward.
Especially if Dance is bad.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You know, I have to admit that I've been finding your comments so far to be in fantastically poor taste, umberhulk.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I get that a lot.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
LoL means laugh out loud, not "I found this ironic" which it isn't by the way.
This has been my *snark of the day*.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Okay.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I thought we could use this thread for spoilerific discussions of dance. No biggie either way. To separate random chatter for those who haven't gotten to dance yet but want to discuss it on the other thread.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Even know what you intended Lyr, I couldn't stay away...bring on the spoilers!
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I am so happy Davos isn't dead. I mean, yeah, I already knew he wasn't going to die (because I spoilered myself up good, not because I "had a feeling" or anything), but it's still really, really gratifying.
And if I have to wait six more years to see Rickon on Skagos, it had better be freaking worth it.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Okay. I've been looking through my shiny new copy of Dance.
And you know what? What I read makes me root for the Others.
Let the whole of Westeros burn. Nothing the Others do could be worse than what the people already do anyway.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I bet you just hit on it! The Other's only come to wipe out the wicked like Noah's flood...so since the people are so rotten, up come the corpses to wipe the slate clean!
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
I'd only be half surprised if that was true.
And I don't think I'd be all that upset...
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Well, that was the most productive day I've spent in ages - I managed to finish the book!
Jon moving the wildlings - right idea? I think yes. I was actually pretty impressed by Jon in the book, for the most part. I was most impressed by his "death," which is in quotes because I'm fairly confident Mel will swoop in and save the day.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)