So I've never read the series, though I've been meaning to for a while. I know that the tv series of the first book is now airing, and I've heard some really great things about it.
Here's my question. Should I read the books first or watch the series? I find that I tend to actually prefer to watch a movie adaptation of a book before reading it, because the movie will never measure up to the book and I will only end up disappointed and focused on the changes and deletions, etc...But if I watch the movie first, I'll almost always be able to appreciate the book as superior, and still continue to enjoy the film adaptation.
But given that this isn't simply a movie, but a series that will span many years, I'm not sure what to do. How good is the series? Is it worth only watching the series and then some time down the road reading all the books? Or will having read the books before watching give me greater appreciation?
I'm curious to hear some thoughts of people who can offer some perspective.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:How good is the series?
On my walls are three framed posters of characters from the series, and on my bookshelf I have a statue of a forth character.
So you can guess that I am a pretty big fan . The first three books are my favorite I've ever read. The fourth was pretty mediocre. I'm hoping the fifth (coming out in July) returns to form.
quote:Or will having read the books before watching give me greater appreciation?
I think it will. The books are much deeper than the series, and being in the character's thoughts makes the characters much more interesting and relate-able. There are a number of shocks and cliff-hangers that will be ruined for you either way.
I would probably suggest starting the first book up until the first few chapters, and then decide if you want to continue or watch the series first.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
So much of the series also involves huge surprises that once seen can never been unseen. You're only going to get one chance to experience the series for a first time, and I recommend it be with the books.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I say wait til all the books are done, then read them, otherwise you are in for a wait and a possible very large let down.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
You know, if that had been the common thought from the beginning, we wouldn't have A Storm of Swords. He would have probably done something different.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I'd say read the first one, and then watch the series. Both are great. As for potential for big letdowns...*rolleyes*. You'll be hard pressed to find a fanbase who loves to hate, or even just criticize, as much as this one.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
The possible let down is if he dies without finishing the series.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
Thanks guys, I'm in the middle of reading a few books at the moment, so my summer reading is booked up. But a friend gave me the audio books and I threw the first one on my phone.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Early reviews for Dance say that even the biggest hater who has written off the series will get sucked back in by it. Looks like the wait was worth it.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: The possible let down is if he dies without finishing the series.
Ah, my mistake then. I interpreted it as the common complaint about pace of new books.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Where are these early reviews? I've only seen the one.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
I say read the books first so you will know what is going on in the series. So many characters get thrown at you so briefly in the show that I can't imagine anyone that hasn't read the books can figure it all out.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I'd say read the first one, and then watch the series. Both are great. As for potential for big letdowns...*rolleyes*. You'll be hard pressed to find a fanbase who loves to hate, or even just criticize, as much as this one.
This is so, so, so true.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
There are quite a few reasons for that.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
*shrug* I completely get the frustration. The entitlement that frequently goes along with it, though, is just strange to me. Even as a fan, I don't really have fair grounds to be, say, angry he's watching TV or fanning on football instead of finishing the next book. That attitude, though, is far from uncommon.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
While that exists, most of the complaints that I hear are far more legitimate than that, and not worthy of casual dismissal with an eyeroll.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
In my opinion, the greatest thing about the books is that, due to GRRM's skill at writing such real characters, and his ability to draw you along with a quickly developing plot (for the first few books, anyway), you end up caring dearly about the people in the books and are eager to find out what happens to them. Knowing how the books end (especially Game of Thrones) can legitimately steal a lot of joy of reading them - it's not like Lord of the Rings, where you're pretty sure how the book will end, but you read for the journey.
Don't get me wrong, the "journey" is also incredibly wonderful, the books are very aesthetically pleasing, the prose is excellent, the scenery awe inspiring... I like reading Bran's first dream scene just for it's incredible, poetic language. And the series has all of the beauty, poetry, and grace of the books... but none of the heart. I can't bring myself to care about the characters in the TV show... I think watching it first might lessen your enjoyment of the books.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by Strider: So I've never read the series, though I've been meaning to for a while. I know that the tv series of the first book is now airing, and I've heard some really great things about it.
Here's my question. Should I read the books first or watch the series? I find that I tend to actually prefer to watch a movie adaptation of a book before reading it, because the movie will never measure up to the book and I will only end up disappointed and focused on the changes and deletions, etc...But if I watch the movie first, I'll almost always be able to appreciate the book as superior, and still continue to enjoy the film adaptation.
But given that this isn't simply a movie, but a series that will span many years, I'm not sure what to do. How good is the series? Is it worth only watching the series and then some time down the road reading all the books? Or will having read the books before watching give me greater appreciation?
I'm curious to hear some thoughts of people who can offer some perspective.
I started reading when I started watching the show, based on how much I enjoyed the premiere. It was actually sort of neat reading at the same, being able to get more details about what was going on. Of course I finished the book by the third episode, but it is all fresh in my head still.
It is my first fantasy epic type story that I have ever read.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: While that exists, most of the complaints that I hear are far more legitimate than that, and not worthy of casual dismissal with an eyeroll.
Name a few? Other than hissy fits about his side projects and how he spends his free time, I don't know what most of them are.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: While that exists, most of the complaints that I hear are far more legitimate than that, and not worthy of casual dismissal with an eyeroll.
Name a few? Other than hissy fits about his side projects and how he spends his free time, I don't know what most of them are.
That's mostly what I see as well.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
I appreciate Lyrhawn's dogged loyalty to the series, he is fortunate enough to be new to it, and still has the wide-eyed optimism we all once had. Though I do actually believe Dance will be as they say; "off the hook".
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Wide-eyed optimism? Seriously, who gets jaded because a book takes awhile to complete?
Where's the rabid hate groups against Orson Scott Card specifically because he hasn't written the seventh Alvin Maker book yet after this many years?
I swear. Never go look at what they say on Amazon about George R.R. Martin. The sheer viciousness is astounding.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Where's the rabid hate groups against Orson Scott Card specifically because he hasn't written the seventh Alvin Maker book yet after this many years?
There are reasons why people aren't as bothered by that.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: While that exists, most of the complaints that I hear are far more legitimate than that, and not worthy of casual dismissal with an eyeroll.
Name a few? Other than hissy fits about his side projects and how he spends his free time, I don't know what most of them are.
The big one is that when Feast was about to be published, Martin's fans were told that he was splitting it into two books only because the full book, which was practically finished, was too large, so his publisher was forcing him to split it into two volumes. We were told that we'd get to read the chapters from half of the viewpoint characters in Feast, and about a year later, we'd get to read the rest of it when the next volume was published.
This appears to have been simply untrue, and when Martin went to write the parts that had supposedly already been written, it turned out to be much more difficult than he had thought it would be. So now it's taken as long for the second half of as it did for the first, which was already quite a long wait for this sort of series.
His side projects have never bothered me, but I was frustrated to hear that he was doing the TV show. If he's anything like me, I reckon there's only so much emotional energy he can pour into the SoIaF during any given period of time. With that energy going into the TV show, it meant that the book that was already years later that promised would likely be even later.
Now, it is certainly debatable how legitimate these complaints are. However, I feel confident in my assessment that they are more legitimate reasons than complaining because he's watching TV or talking about football.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm surprised the TV is a particular complaint. His involvement appears to be somewhat limited. Other than the one script per season he gets to write, the two showrunners appear to be doing all the work, only consulting him on various things. And for that matter, the show was only announced a year ago, and the next book is weeks away from being published.
I'm a little glad I missed that kerfuffle a few years ago when Feast was released. I imagine that was extremely frustrating.
It'd be interesting, though time-consuming, to go through all the various drafts that Martin has of Dance. I think there are a half dozen of them. It would open an interesting window into exactly why he decided to junk all the material he had for Dance and to start over. I wonder what sort of access I would need to the library where his papers are stored.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
I think a lot of the frustration comes from the fans feeling they've been bamboozled by GRRM. I first read through SoIaF when I was 16 years old, and like most people believed the promise that Dance With Dragons was already written, was being given the "finishing touches", and would be released in a few months. Since then I've had 5 jobs, gone to college, joined the Marine Corps, been to 5 countries, changed addresses 7 times, had 3 girlfriends, written literally hundreds of essays, research papers, love letters, short stories... I'm 22 now, and I'm not really even the same person I was when I read A Game of Thrones for the first time.
During that time, GRRM has been putting the finishing touches of A Dance With Dragons.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those frustrated fans... I can't bring myself to care that much about a single series of books. But if I really, really loved the books, went to conventions, bought the swords and action figures and games and posters, read the blog, and was told for 6 years that the book was about to be released, I could see myself getting fairly upset.
It's not so much the amount of time it's taken to write the books. Tolkien took 14 frikkin years to write LoTR. Patrick Rothfuss, another fantasy author I love, openly stated it'll take him 3 or 4 years to write each book. I read The Name of the Wind a few years ago, thought "wow, what a great book!", then didn't really think much about it until Wise Man's Fear was released back in March. I have, however, thought a LOT about A Dance With Dragons, because every other month I see another article or read another post about how George Martin is almost done with it.
Does GRRM has the right to live his life as he pleases, and write or not write whatever and whenever he wants? Absolutely. And I certainly disagree with people who write him angry letters, trying to dictate to him how he needs to live his life. But I think his devoted fans have a good reason to give up on the series in disgust - it's not really plausible to expect readers to support and care about a series when the author apparently doesn't.
Posted by Yebor1 (Member # 1380) on :
Thank god Brust puts out one Dragerea book a year and i dont have the wait i have had with Martins series only six more years to go brust to finish the nineteen book series
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
The reason I got angry with GRRM wasn't the long wait (I'm still waiting on Lovelock sequels) it was the fact that GRRM promised things, repeatably and then fell very very short, and then for years left the same "update" on his webpage.
A) If you make promises, keep them.
B) If you can't, at least let people know what is going on and not just leave them hanging for years.
If he hadn't promised, I wouldn't be mad, even if he had taken longer, because you can't demand inspiration, it just doesn't work that way.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
What did he promise, SW? Other than the time the next sequel would come out, I mean. I'm just curious because I haven't read his stuff but I was considering it.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Just exactly that, the book will come out *example date*. *Example date* comes and goes. So sorry, the book will come out *other date*. *Other date* comes and goes. Well, we got it wrong, but I'll let you know...and then no update for years.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: Wide-eyed optimism? Seriously, who gets jaded because a book takes awhile to complete?
I do, Mega, I do... Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
Should I check the series out though? I'm not sure I want to wait another ten years to finish it. I'm also not a huge fan of fantasy, but I'd like to get into it. Hm...
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Bitching aside (am starting to get sick of it myself), it's a FANTASTIC series and you should immediately drop what you are doing and go read it.
Anyway, it looks like I am going to get this fan made map printed on a 16"x36" canvas and I am going to hang it on my wall .
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:it's not really plausible to expect readers to support and care about a series when the author apparently doesn't
Where did you pull that from?
The guy has written thousands and thousands of pages in the last few years for Dance. The fact that he had a book almost done and scrapped the whole thing because he didn't think it was good enough, and then proceeded to write three or four more versions before finally getting it where he thought was good enough seems like pretty strong evidence that he probably cares TOO MUCH about it being a great book, or he would have just published the original one that he thought wasn't good enough.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I say wait for the series to be finished. That's what I'm doing. I won't read Dance til they are all done.
Very cool map though!
ETA: I agree...he cares about the book...but was very disrespectful to his readers when he never updated his webpage.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
I think it's a little unfair to keep suggesting he never updated his webpage. His last entry on the matter, granted a few years ago, said he was going to stop updating precisely because he wanted to stop making promises he couldn't deliver on, and the next update would be to say that he's finished. I don't see that as disrespectful.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Maybe because he keeps saying the book is almost doen when its not.
But whatever, its done now. Lets do this.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
I think the sixth and seventh book will be released within five years IF HBO decides to run the entire series. It has already been picked up for a second season, so if they continue with the series I am sure GRRM will be pressured to finish the sixth book within 2-3 years and the seventh a couple years after that.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
Hm. I always think it's a little strange when writers take half a decade to write a book (or more), seeing as how OSC and Stephen King pump out one or more of them a year. But then, I don't live their lives, so what do I know?
Anyway, I'll check the books out, but not right now as I currently have about 20 to read before I commit to something else.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Considering how involved Martin is with his fans, how willing to hang out with them even on a personal level, calling him disrespectful for not updating in a certain way when what he was doing ignited a storm of *very* personal criticism...well, it's just strange.
I can totally get bein' frustrated the update pace isn't quicker. Saying he disrespected his fans because it's been so long, or because he said he was nearly done-perhaps when he said that, he *thought* he was nearly done?-is strange to me. It's also a little entitled, and possessive.
The man's not on retainer to 'the fans'. And we'll see, if Dance is outstanding, how many stay away for the years completion will take. I suspect, as an unscientific measure, discontent as measured by angry website membership will drop sharply when compared to happy website membership.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Like I said, it's debatable how legitimate those complaints are. But they're a far cry from complaining because he's watching TV or talking about football, which is how you characterized them earlier.
quote:And we'll see, if Dance is outstanding, how many stay away for the years completion will take. I suspect, as an unscientific measure, discontent as measured by angry website membership will drop sharply when compared to happy website membership.
So, if Martin starts delivering what his fans want, you think that his fans will be pleased? It's a little far-fetched, but you just may be right. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I characterized *some* of the complaints that way. The complaints that are strictly frustration at slow update speed, or because he wasn't done when he said he'd be, I get. When they change into entitlement and personal anger towards the guy personally as though something is *owed*, that seems less reasonable.
And as for far-fetched, I should've been more clear: I was referring only to those fans who say things such as, "I've been let down by slow updates, so now I won't read anymore until they're done."
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Where did you pull that from?
I've visited his site maybe 10 times over the past 5 years. He added a few chapters, then just promises the book will be done soon... then nothing for years. I honestly was surprised when I read Dance was going to be released in July... I figured he'd abandoned the series years ago. Again, I don't really follow the guy to closely, but I know a lot of people (including my sister and brother-in-law) who are those pissed off fans I mentioned. They're the main reason I keep thinking about the dang thing.
quote:The guy has written thousands and thousands of pages in the last few years for Dance. The fact that he had a book almost done and scrapped the whole thing because he didn't think it was good enough, and then proceeded to write three or four more versions before finally getting it where he thought was good enough seems like pretty strong evidence that he probably cares TOO MUCH about it being a great book, or he would have just published the original one that he thought wasn't good enough.
Where are you getting this? I admit I don't stalk the guy or anything, so I don't know the intimate details of his writing process, but from what I remember reading in the back of Feast for Crows, he scrapped the book back in 2002, then wrote Dance and Feast simultaneously, splitting it into 2 books when it got too big. He's since spent the last 6 years tweaking Dance. And judging by what a needlessly bloated, glacially paced monstrosity Feast was, he could've just excised half of Brienne and Jaime's endless chapters, added the Dance characters, and spent that time writing original material instead of revising the other half of the characters.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath:
quote:The guy has written thousands and thousands of pages in the last few years for Dance. The fact that he had a book almost done and scrapped the whole thing because he didn't think it was good enough, and then proceeded to write three or four more versions before finally getting it where he thought was good enough seems like pretty strong evidence that he probably cares TOO MUCH about it being a great book, or he would have just published the original one that he thought wasn't good enough.
Where are you getting this?
From Martin's blog.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:I was referring only to those fans who say things such as, "I've been let down by slow updates, so now I won't read anymore until they're done."
As far as I've noticed, I'm the only poster to say they were going to wait for the series to be finished...
With his age, health and pace of putting out books, it is a genuine possibility he will die before he finishes. I sure hope not.
But when you couple that with him specifically saying no other writer would finish his work (I read here somewhere, I might have the details wrong) and it just seems more prudent to wait.
Plus, I have other things to read, why reread the whole series just to wait for the next installment? I'm annoyed with some of actions, not up in arms or a frothing at the mouth hater. But mostly I'm practical about how I choose to spend my time.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
Stone has a point there. If it takes him another 12 years to finish the series, you might as well just wait.
Reminds me of Tolkein's death, and the subsequent publishing of other books by his son using his notes. Wait...does this guy have a son? Hm...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
GRRM has made it clear that if he dies before the series is finished, he wants to make sure that nobody comes in after him and publishes anything else.
So, while that means no abomination like the new "Dune" books, it also means no series-redeeming continuation like is happening with Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series.
I almost included this item in my list of debatably legitimate complaints.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I think half a masterpiece is a lot more interesting than a full series that's of lesser quality.
I'm thinking here of "good" series like the ones Robin Hobb writes. I enjoy them, and she certainly has no problems delivering them in a timely fashion. But they have nowhere near the impact on me as the half-finished ASOIAF series.
Even if I somehow knew that the series would never be finished, I'd still highly recommend someone reading books 1-3.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I really liked the Assassin books...haven't gotten the sequel series yet though.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
I agree completely, Xavier. I recommend Firefly to people frequently, despite the fact that it will never be finished. Similarly, I would do the same with Ice and Fire if Martin were to die (though like you, I'd only recommend 1-3 at the moment in that circumstance).
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: Where are you getting this? I admit I don't stalk the guy or anything, so I don't know the intimate details of his writing process, but from what I remember reading in the back of Feast for Crows, he scrapped the book back in 2002, then wrote Dance and Feast simultaneously, splitting it into 2 books when it got too big. He's since spent the last 6 years tweaking Dance. And judging by what a needlessly bloated, glacially paced monstrosity Feast was, he could've just excised half of Brienne and Jaime's endless chapters, added the Dance characters, and spent that time writing original material instead of revising the other half of the characters. [/QB]
Is it bad that I actually liked Jaime's chapters? I know he didn't do a whole lot, but I enjoyed seeing what he did do. The trebuchet line... heh.
Brienne... well, Brienne was completely useless as usual.
Oh, as for what Martin was doing with Dance, he thought he only needed a few hundred pages more to make a book about the size of Feast, but then, as he rewrote, it turned out that he didn't like alot of what he'd written and spent a loooot of time rewriting, restructuring, etc. By 2007, he actually had several hundred pages fewer finished than he had in 2005. But that kind of thing happens when a writer is obsessively trying to make a book the best it can be by jettisoning the things he doesn't like and rewriting over and over.
From that point on, though, his work was steady. Three or four hundred pages a year. Until he was done this year. His rate since the tv series was started didn't look much different from the rate of his previous years, either.
Honestly, instead of "giving up" on the series, Martin's been working like made, really, and rewriting it probably over and over again. He's talked about chapters he's rewritten five or six times. (I know the feeling and can sympathize. The last time I truly gave a screenplay of mine the time it needed, I rewrote this one scene about six or seven times myself. But that was a three page scene. Martin's chapters are much longer than that.)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: I think half a masterpiece is a lot more interesting than a full series that's of lesser quality.
I'm torn. I think that Buffy would have been better on average if they'd ended with the fifth season. But there were some pretty great things in seasons 6-7. Do I wish that the last two season had never been made?
I'm torn.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
I can't say I'm torn at all. I'd rather Martin, should he find his health failing, entrust another author with his notes and plans, and allow us an ending. If the volumes thereafter are sub-par, I'll know why, and I'll probably just refuse to consider them canonical. I have no problems doing so with large swathes of the Star Wars universe. I wouldn't with ASoIaF either.
That said, what Martin chooses to do with his personal effects upon his death are, of course, entirely up to him.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I meant that I'm torn about the theoretical, general case that Xavier put forward.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
It's easier to make half a master piece then a whole one...the set up for SoFaI so far has been very well made, if GRRM can live up to it with a strong conclusion is another matter all together.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
I'm tempted (after porteito's argument about Jordon kinda won me over) to hope he does that too, if it comes to that.
I'd still be leery, as I'd hate to have what happened to Dune happen to it. Honestly? The three Butlerian Jihad books didn't disgust me. They were just light, meaningless popcorn books. But as a part of Dune? It was like going out for a lobster and being served fish-sticks. Fish-sticks aren't always terrible, but compared to the lobster I wanted it would be an incredible disappointment.
Nevertheless, at least then I'd have a right to choose to ignore the weird book about how the Others were defeated by the new author's invented characters presented originally in some ungodly prequel about how Aerys the Mad and Tywin Lannister went on light-hearted adventures as kids.
[ June 10, 2011, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: 0Megabyte ]
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Bah, the original Dune was lobster, Children of Dune is lucky if it is fish sticks. Herbert didn't need anyone else to F up his world, he did that all by himself.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I meant that I'm torn about the theoretical, general case that Xavier put forward.
Gotcha. I think, generally, I'd rather have the ending than not. I could imagine exceptions though.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
<-- is a big fan of Children of Dune
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Why mph, why? That book makes me physically sick it is so bad, especially considering how amazing the first one is!
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I'm torn. I think that Buffy would have been better on average if they'd ended with the fifth season. But there were some pretty great things in seasons 6-7. Do I wish that the last two season had never been made?
That's not quite what I was getting at. I didn't mean "I'd rather he stop writing then finish the series with mediocre books". Maybe that's true, I'd have to think about it, but it's not what I was saying.
The general idea is that the series is already very very good, even if it never gets an ending. So waiting "just in case" it never gets finished is a foreign concept to me.
The first three books, as written, are already the best books I've ever read. They don't need any future books to be written for them to be satisfying for me.
So to not read those books, and presumably spending your time reading lesser books that the author claims are finished, doesn't make much sense to me.
I guess some people need closure more than others? I honestly don't think any series (or book for that matter) ever truly ends, the author has just decided to stop writing it.
Added: Take, for example, the Ender series. Card stopped with Children of the Mind, but clearly the story didn't need to end there. There was a lot left to tell.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
"It all worked out in the end."
"In the end? Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends."
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Yeah, you and I definitely feel differently about closure. One reason why ending Buffy at the end of season 5 would have been better is that there would have been much more closure. Likewise if OSC had kept writing more stories after CotM. The story was over. (At least, the story I cared about. I couldn't care less about the descolada planet.)
Then there's the difference between, for example, the Alivn Maker series and the SoIaF. Seventh Son, Red Prophet, and Prentice Alvin are all novels in a series. Yes, there are strong threads that go from one story to the next, but each book does very well all on its own, with each novel's story arc giving closure while the larger story continues on.
The SoIaF books, however, are much more devoted to the overall story arc, with much less developed arcs for the individual books. Just like Xenocide and Children of the Mind is a single novel published in two volumes, in a sense, the SoIaF books aren't really novels themselves, and don't provide the closure that a full story arc does.
In this way, there
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
Heh. That was cute, MPH.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Completely unintentional. Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
Wow! Even better!
Inadvertently or not, you taught me that I desire closure more than I thought. I re-read your post twice and then refreshed the page four times to see if you had finished that sentence.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: <-- is a big fan of Children of Dune
Dune is one of my favorite books, and though I didn't particularly care for Dune Messiah (which I thought was a touch boring), I thought Children of Dune was pretty good. Not as good as Dune, but certainly enjoyable.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, while not being as good as Dune, retroactively make the book Dune even better (on subsequent re-readings).
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
That's how I remember it as well, but because it's been at least a decade since I've read the Dune series I'm having trouble recalling why I felt that way about them. Might be time to put the series on me "to be read" pile again.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
MB: Thanks for the explanation. That significantly changes how I feel about the situation. I think reading Dance, if it blows my socks off, will do so even more.
I had kind of assumed, based mostly on the rambling and relatively mediocre Feast, that GRRM ran out of steam after Storm and has just been trying halfheartedly to keep the series on life support until the end. If in fact he's making a return to form with Dance, I'll be a lot more excited about the books. Even if it means my (currently unborn) child(ren) will be old enough to start reading them by the time the last one comes out.
Someone mentioned Robin Hobb. I honestly think the biggest thing keeping her from being a great writer is that she doesn't understand the value of concise prose. I certainly loved the Assassin trilogy and think she's a great storyteller. But Card, for example, could've written the entire 1000+ page trilogy in 350 pages, and it would've been better for it. She has the bad habit (shared by Marion Bradley IMO) of writing endless internal monologues and repeating the same bits of information (albeit with different nuances as the situation dictates) over and over. Shaman's Crossing is her attempt at writing a fast paced novel, and it's by far my favorite of her books because of it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:That's how I remember it as well, but because it's been at least a decade since I've read the Dune series I'm having trouble recalling why I felt that way about them. Might be time to put the series on me "to be read" pile again.
IIRC, Scott Brick, one of my very favorite auto book performers, did a new version of Dune a few years ago. I don't recall if you're into audio books, but if you are, you might want to check that out.
--
And in reference to the closure that I was talking about above -- it's not all-important to me. Because of what happened with SoIaF, when I read Name of the Wind, I did so with a halfway expectation that that there would never be another book. And I'm glad I did -- even if there had never been another book, that was a fantastic book to read.
But, being the weak human that I am, being able to be philosophical about such things now doesn't erase the frustrations and distrust I've already felt because of the situation of SoIaF.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Someone mentioned Robin Hobb. I honestly think the biggest thing keeping her from being a great writer is that she doesn't understand the value of concise prose.
I enjoyed all of her books until "Renegade's Magic". Honestly I couldn't get through it. The first half of the book is all about what the main character eats, and I'm not really exaggerating. He does some bit of magic, and then spends the next chapter eating various random crap people bring him. For what seemed to be hundreds of pages.
I doubt I'll ever pick it back up. Wikipedia's plot summary is just describing the setup, so now I wonder if I'll ever know how that series ends.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
I only got halfway through Forest Mage. I literally couldn't force myself to continue after realizing that she had taken a series - and a character - with such amazing potential and utterly destroyed it in a few pages. I'm sure in her mind she thought she was doing something bold and provocative and brilliant, and maybe she was, but I simply couldn't go along with it. It's a good example of a series with not just a mediocre ending, but a disastrous ending. Shaman's Crossing is still my favorite book by her, and I usually just pretend the sequels don't exist.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
**** SPOILERS for Forest mage ****
Forest Mage definitely took the series in a very different direction than I was expecting. However, it was interesting to me to read about the complete destruction of a fantasy hero's life. His friends, his family, his body, his career, his love interest, his future. All irrevocably destroyed a bit at a time and left with nothing.
It wasn't the direction I'd have chose, but it still was something I was interested in reading.
Then in the next book, she wrote hundreds of pages of nothing happening. I've read the first nine Wheel of Time books, and as empty as some of those are, they can't compare to the sheer banality of the first half of Renegade's Magic.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Dogbeath: Yeah, here's the link where he talks about it at length.
Now, the question is... will it be any good? The only review I've seen so far does say the book has a similar feel to Feast, and that the audience should "think strategically, be patient as the story grows, and brace for a beating."
It also says it's a good book and it has a whallop of a finale. Which makes sense, since the Meereeneese knot Martin has been talking about for the last two years was about the finale. It was apparently tough to write, and a very exciting sequence.
The review does state that "Even ostensibly disillusioned fans will be caught up in the interweaving stories, especially when Martin drops little hints around long-debated questions such as Jon's parentage."
Sounds hopeful.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
**** more SPOILERS for Forest Mage ****
The thing that bothered me so much is that it seemed so pointless. She had such a unique, amazing story that could've been told... and she consciously and deliberately destroyed it. I presume the reason Renegade Magic was hundreds of pages of nothing in particular is because there was nothing left to write - she wrote herself out of what could've been the most memorable series of books in the past 10 years.
I think there's a fine line you have to walk with writing tragedy. If your readers can empathize with your character, you have to put a limit on how much you torture them before the reader stops reading. I literally *couldn't* finish Forest Mage because it was so painful and uncomfortable for me to keep reading. And she just went on and on and on with it.
Even GRRM, who often does horrible things to his characters, knows to keep it to a few pages, or even a few paragraphs. *SPOILERS* Dany's miscarriage plus Drogo's death, and the Red Wedding *SPOILERS* only last maybe 2 or 3 pages each of actual bad things happening. For the most part he limits himself to a sentence or two.
Really, tragedy is meant for plays and short stories. The novel is too long of a format for it... either the audience becomes jaded and loses their sympathy for the characters, or they give up, because they can't bear it anymore.
MB: I'm going to try and keep my expectations low... the last time I was so truly overwhelmed by a fantasy novel that I stayed up all night reading and spent the next few days in a trance was when I read The Name of the Wind. That's because I picked it up randomly, knowing nothing about it. The Wise Man's Fear was definitely a better book, but I went into it expecting it to be the greatest thing ever, and so it pretty much just matched my expectations instead of blowing me away. I figure if I expect Dance to be boring and convoluted and overwritten, and it ends up being another Storm... well then I'll be a very happy man.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: Dogbeath: Yeah, here's the link where he talks about it at length.
Now, the question is... will it be any good? The only review I've seen so far does say the book has a similar feel to Feast, and that the audience should "think strategically, be patient as the story grows, and brace for a beating."
It also says it's a good book and it has a whallop of a finale. Which makes sense, since the Meereeneese knot Martin has been talking about for the last two years was about the finale. It was apparently tough to write, and a very exciting sequence.
The review does state that "Even ostensibly disillusioned fans will be caught up in the interweaving stories, especially when Martin drops little hints around long-debated questions such as Jon's parentage."
Sounds hopeful.
I read somewhere that the reviewer for Time Magazine is in the middle of reading it right now. Supposedly we won't get many reviews before it actually comes out, they aren't showing it to a lot of people.
The review or two that I read also said that it looks like things are really setting up Winds of Winter to be an all-out battle royale.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I bet only Tyrion lives.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
A shame you won't find out until a piece of time after the rest of us;)
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Only as long as it takes to read Dance.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
My money's on Rickon.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
I bet Bronn will not only live, but he'll end the series as the ruler of the seven kingdoms.
Because he always ends each book better off than he was at the start. And with where he is now, how much higher will two books push him?
Oh, he'll also marry Margaery. Who will still be a virgin at that time. Just because I find that hilarious.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Sam Tarly!
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
They killed my n***** ned!
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
I watched the official review he did after he calmed down. "George R. R. Martin, you are a sick, twisted, cruel man. May God have mercy on your soul"
There's something sadistic in me that loves that millions of unsuspecting viewers are in for a lot of heartbreak over the next few years.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
LoL @ Dogbreath...others must share our pain!
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
****SPOILERS*** I guess.
I remember being frustrated that it took so long for someone to kill Ned. I quit reading it because he wasn't dying fast enough. He was way too honorable to navigate that world and live, so I knew he was either going to die spectacularly (likely after the child-crippling and dog-killing that was going on) or was going to get out of dying in some unlikely way that would annoy me.
I just got really frustrated that the story wasn't progressing quickly enough, and I'm honestly glad I stopped reading. I'll pick it up when he finishes the story, or else watch it on HBO with the hubby, which is more fun. At one book a year, HBO might catch up with him before he's done. You never know. Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
******** SPOILER **************
Yeah if they get that worked up over Ned's death, wait until the post wedding feast. There will be riots in the streets, haha.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Author George R.R. Martin was asked if he had a resolution or ending to the seemingly endless conflict. He replied that the end would be a cloud of dust or snow being driven by the wind across a vast graveyard full of tombstones.
But everybody dies in the end.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
Valar morghulis.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
"Rocks fall, everyone dies." Now an 18-book spectacular.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
I remember reading that quote, IIRC a flummoxed reader asked him what characters will be left alive by book 7. He replied something like
"None. The final book will be 1000 pages describing snow blowing over the graves"
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The immediate response is to assume he's joking, but, with Martin...I don't know.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Just in case anyone else found the spoilers from the early shipments of ADWD, it should go without saying that several of them are totally incompatible with things that happen in the officially-released spoiler chapters (i.e. from readings or on the website). Others are silly lies, and the rest are pretty much just epic and hopefully true.
Spoil yourselves with caution - if you can't wait two more weeks. Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
SAM KILLS ARYA
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
I have a feeling that Mr. Syrio is still alive and well and will make himself known to Arya in time. There was never a body or proof of his death! Syrio is way too awesome to die! I have a feeling he might actually be Jaqen H'ghar, I guess we will see!
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Juxtapose, I don't doubt you are lying. Otherwise, I would hate you so, so deeply that the very sun would go cold.
But that won't happen, now will it?
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
I find it plausible that Syrio is alive. The evidence that he is Jaqen, though, is pretty non-existent. The biggest thing going for this theory is that there isn't compelling evidence against it.
0Megabyte, Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geraine: I have a feeling that Mr. Syrio is still alive and well and will make himself known to Arya in time. There was never a body or proof of his death! Syrio is way too awesome to die! I have a feeling he might actually be Jaqen H'ghar, I guess we will see!
I had never considered that he might be Jaqen H'ghar, but I find it bizarre that Ser Meryn could have defeated Syrio, given that Syrio had access to the weapons of the fallen Lannister guardsmen.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I figured since Meryn wasn't dead that meant Syrio was.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
I don't know. They never mentioned that Syrio died, only that he gave him trouble.
My hunch is that Syrio got away somehow and Meryn is too proud (or scared) to admit it, for fear of what Cersei will do to him. (Call him incompetant, strip him of his title, etc.) He then continues to look over Arya as Jaqen
Or perhaps he surrenders and asks to the take the black, and poses as Jaqen at that time.
Jaqen changed faces to a guy with a strange nose and black curly hair after he helped Arya at Harrenhal. That is significant, as in the prologue of book four the Alchemist that Pate met also had a strange nose and black curly hair. Interesting!!!!
I guess there are some others that believe the kindly man Arya meets in Braavos is Syrio, as he uses a lot of the same phrases that Syrio did.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Nevermind.
[ June 28, 2011, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: umberhulk ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: I figured since Meryn wasn't dead that meant Syrio was.
That was what I'd always thought too, but on this most recent reread I started questioning it.
I kind of hope that he isn't Jaquen H'ghar, honestly. Not everybody has to secretly be somebody else, you know?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
*nod* It's a little too tied-up-with-a-bow (if even for just that branch of the story) if he is.
Jaqen could have his own awesome story.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:My hunch is that Syrio got away somehow
I was given to understand that the First Sword of Braavos does not run. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Being a Braavo and being a Faceless Man are two totally different disciplines though. At least, that's how it struck me. I don't think they are the same, nor do I want them to be. I would like to believe that Syrio is alive, I think we all would because he's a favorite. However, why would Syrio have escaped, followed her, kept himself hidden all that time, and then reveal himself to her in Braavos? Maybe they'll just run into each other on accident, but him as a guardian angel or as Jaqen seem farfetched. I think we'll run into Jaqen again, for sure, but I don't know who Arya will run into.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I have no trouble imagining Syrio as alive or dead. Alive, because lots of weapons. Dead, because how far would innumerable other Lannister or Lannister-auxiliaries really be from that fight?
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
I agree with the people who think Syrio is dead.
It's not nice. It's not happy in the least. But there's something satisfying about it. In any case:
I noticed in the tv version of his final scene that, after Arya left, Syrio looked kinda scared. Did anyone else notice that?
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose:
quote:My hunch is that Syrio got away somehow
I was given to understand that the First Sword of Braavos does not run.
You are correct. It's really more of a bunny hop.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I have no trouble imagining Syrio as alive or dead. Alive, because lots of weapons. Dead, because how far would innumerable other Lannister or Lannister-auxiliaries really be from that fight?
+1
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jake:
quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose:
quote:My hunch is that Syrio got away somehow
I was given to understand that the First Sword of Braavos does not run.
You are correct. It's really more of a bunny hop.
I wouldn't have been able to picture this before watching the TV series. Now I can't stop.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I have no trouble imagining Syrio as alive or dead. Alive, because lots of weapons. Dead, because how far would innumerable other Lannister or Lannister-auxiliaries really be from that fight?
There's also the fact that the Kingsguard is supposed to consist of some of the best knights of Westeros. We learn that many of them are bad or at least highly corruptible men, but I'd think the Kingsguard appointed/kept by Robert would be good fighters. Syrio is scary fast and dangerous, but Meryn is armored and supposed to be one of the best, so...*shrug*. It always seemed plausible to me that he just killed Syrio.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Good point...I guess we just don't know what happened to him, either way. I hope we get to find out (although if he died, I can't imagine how we would get that info).
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
After this much intervening story, it'd require some contrivance to tell us for sure he's dead, certainly. Maybe GRRM doesn't know either at this point.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
He doesn't have to have run to still be alive. He could have been injured, perhaps knocked unconscious from a blow to the face. Out of respect for his brave fight, allowed to join the watch instead of being executed.
Still, I think he's dead. George doesn't seem to like keeping characters alive.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
To be fair, what reason would they have to keep him alive?
This is Meryn Trant we're talking about. He's the sort of guy to gleefully stand by and help Joffrey abuse a 13 year old girl. There's no way he'd just let Syrio live. It's not in his character.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
I just finished Feast last night, and I think the debate about whether or not Syrio is alive is a bit of a wank. One, Martin plays for keeps; no one just slips out of an impossible situation. Two, it would make for terrible story telling. Lady Stark has already been resurrected, a second you-thought-they-were-dead-but-you-thought-wrong character would be ridiculous.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
Really? You're going to be pissed when the Hound comes back then.
And the Mountain.
And Viserys.
I might be joking about one of those.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Wasn't Meryn a political, Lannister-friendly appointee? I can't remember, except that I remember thinking, "He might not actually be to the Kingsguard standard of badass." That was the only thing which let me credit a *very* slight chance Syrio might be alive-that the fight would be over quickly.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
lol
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
Maybe I missed his death, but I thought the Mountain was still alive, in the creepy fake-meister's dungeon? There's also no suggestion that Viseryrs is dead. As for the Hound, the only claim he's dead comes from a secondary character that we've only seen once.
Anyone of those characters could come back, just like Davos could still be alive, whatever the Freys say.
Syrio's situation was and is not analogous.
Posted by Aris Katsaris (Member # 4596) on :
Unless Martin intended to leave it ambiguous there were a number of ways he could have made Syrio's death appear certain to us -- e.g. Sansa recognizing the head of her sister's dancing teacher on a pike, or Meryn Trant (or someone) actually mentioning Syrio got killed. Such a reference could also have been done and even more easily in the tv series itself (as we could have seen his head without anyone but the viewers needing to recognize it); but it was left just as ambiguous there.
As absence of evidence is evidence of absence, I'm inclined to give Syrio about 50-50 odds of having survived.
If he hasn't survived, I'm guessing there will eventually come a time where it'll be a plot-point for Arya (and the readers) to falsely hope he has survived.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:One, Martin plays for keeps; no one just slips out of an impossible situation. Two, it would make for terrible story telling. Lady Stark has already been resurrected...
Um...
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
All it takes is Martin to have someone say "They made Bob the new first sword of Bravos" in passing and wha la, closure.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by Foust: There's also no suggestion that Viseryrs is dead.
Aside from the molten gold poured over his head - on-page, no less, the burning flesh, and everyone declaring him dead?
Yeah. Viserys is dead.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
As is The Mountain... Cersei pretty much confirms this, as does the Maester she is speaking to.
Syrio wasn't in an impossible situation. He had just taken down the rest of Meryn's group of knights with a wooden sword. Taking one more down is hardly impossible odds. The only mention of Syrio after Arya left was a comment made that Syrio had given Meryn trouble. That doesn't confirm his death, nor does it confirm he still lives.
I believe he is alive, though he may not be Jaq'en. I do however believe Jaq'en is the Alchemist.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: All it takes is Martin to have someone say "They made Bob the new first sword of Bravos" in passing and wha la, closure.
Syrio wasn't the First Sword of Braavos when he was in King's Landing. That was a position he had formerly held.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geraine: Syrio wasn't in an impossible situation. He had just taken down the rest of Meryn's group of knights with a wooden sword. Taking one more down is hardly impossible odds.
While I agree with your larger point--the more I think about it, the more likely I think it is that Syrio survived--it's worth pointing out that the fighters accompanying Ser Meryn were just guardsmen, not nights, and were all relatively lightly armored. Ser Meryn was a knight, and though somewhat slow was accomplished enough to be a member of the Kingsguard, and was wearing full plate. He's a tougher nut to crack by orders of magnitude than were the guardsmen.
[ June 30, 2011, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Jake ]
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
Foust, I'm curious why you think the Hound's situation is not analagous to Syrio's. In terms of trying to determine unlikely survivors, they seem fairly similar to me.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Well for one, there's actually evidence that the Hound is still alive, while none exists for Syrio.
I'm fairly certain that Syrio is dead, and am similarly pretty certain that Sandor is alive.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: Well for one, there's actually evidence that the Hound is still alive, while none exists for Syrio.
I'm fairly certain that Syrio is dead, and am similarly pretty certain that Sandor is alive.
Sandor was gravely injured at the time Arya left him, Syrio was not. I thought it was pretty clear in the 4th book that the person claiming to be the Hound was not actually Sandor.
Syrio may very well be dead, I just don't think a ninja assassin of his caliber could be taken down by Meryn so easily Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
Right, but Foust seemed to be arguing that Syrio had to be dead because having another character return from the dead (figuratively) would be poor form after Cat's ressurection.
I was pointing out that Martin has already done this with the Mountain, likely the Hound as well. I WAS joking about Viserys.
My primary point, which I didn't make well, is that lady Stark's ressurection isn't evidence of Syrio's fate one way or another. I really think the story is done with him, which is saddening. Ialways loved him.
The fact of the matter though, is that Syrio served two purposes to the plot. He gave Arya the tools she needed to survive her initial predicament, and he introduced her to the true seeing. She has new teachers now, and I expect she'll be learning deadlier things than swordplay.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
And it looks like 180 people got the new book already due to Amazon screwing up. I'd stay away from any GRRM fan pages for the next couple of weeks.
Oh, and 4chan. I'm pretty sure everyone here is too intelligent to go to that website, but apparently there is someone in /tv/ that got it early and is scanning and posting each page individually.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
Sam kills Daenerys. Jon runs off with Nymeria.
Hodor sits the Iron Throne.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote: I thought it was pretty clear in the 4th book that the person claiming to be the Hound was not actually Sandor.
Yep, that'd be Rorge, one of the three saved by Arya.
However, it was also strongly hinted that while "the Hound" is dead, Sandor Clegane is alive and well (having joined a monastery after they treated his wounds).
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Foust: Maybe I missed his death, but I thought the Mountain was still alive, in the creepy fake-meister's dungeon? There's also no suggestion that Viseryrs is dead. As for the Hound, the only claim he's dead comes from a secondary character that we've only seen once.
Anyone of those characters could come back, just like Davos could still be alive, whatever the Freys say.
Syrio's situation was and is not analogous.
I think you need to reread the books a bit. Drogo poured molten good onto Visery's head, killing him, remember?
You are right, the Mountain is dying, and the magester can't save him.....but there are clear indications that after death he will be animated as a zombie of sorts.
Edited for clarification....that first sentence sounded snotty when I reread it, and I didn't mean it to. These books are some of the larger, more intricate books I have ever read, and I read probably 50-100 books a year. I have had to reread it several times, and I STILL keep finding new things. Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier:
quote: I thought it was pretty clear in the 4th book that the person claiming to be the Hound was not actually Sandor.
Yep, that'd be Rorge, one of the three saved by Arya.
However, it was also strongly hinted that while "the Hound" is dead, Sandor Clegane is alive and well (having joined a monastery after they treated his wounds).
Really? I'll have to re-read that part.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
Here is an off the wall question....
I was reading the 4th book and the prologue has Pate in it. At the end of the prologue it makes it pretty clear that the Alchemist killed him.
But then about 50% of the way through the book Cersei is talking about Tommen's whipping boy, who is named Pate. I assume Pate is just a common name, but does anyone remember if there is any indication that this Pate is the same as the ony in the Prologue?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
What's the one thing that the protagonists in the prologue chapters have in common, Geraine?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Hey that one guy survived into a following chapter before dying. Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Geraine: It's probably a faceless man. Very probably Jaqen.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:One, Martin plays for keeps; no one just slips out of an impossible situation. Two, it would make for terrible story telling. Lady Stark has already been resurrected...
Um...
Yes... hence it would be dumb for it to happen twice. This is exactly my point.
quote:Aside from the molten gold poured over his head - on-page, no less, the burning flesh, and everyone declaring him dead?
Yeah. Viserys is dead.
My mistake, I was thinking Varys the Spider when I said that. Stupid names with their Vs and their Ys and their Ss.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: What's the one thing that the protagonists in the prologue chapters have in common, Geraine?
Well when you put it like *that*...odds on which protagonist character ain't actually dead, or that one of 'em will live in upcoming books?
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Through a crazy, mixed up series of unlikely events, all the prologue characters end up North of the wall, meet some Others, and come back as wights to take revenge on their killers!
It'll be a Season 7 Special Edition DVD/Blu-Ray combo pack only episode.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by Foust:
quote:Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:One, Martin plays for keeps; no one just slips out of an impossible situation. Two, it would make for terrible story telling. Lady Stark has already been resurrected...
Um...
Yes... hence it would be dumb for it to happen twice. This is exactly my point.
I disagree. It would be bad storytelling to arbitrarily make resurrection a one-time-only thing - why can't it happen again? He uses it again or he doesn't, as he pleases, but he should have a better reason than "well if I do it again, that would be dumb." He presumably has some idea in his head about how this magic works, and why/whether it would work in other circumstances, and whether any other instances might be likely in the threads of the story.
And also: he's resurrected at least two (although we only find that out about Beric after the first few resurrections).
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
There are rules for resurrection. Thoros resurrected Beric, but Beric had to sacrifice himself for Lady Stark.
It seems like the Red Priests of Myr hold the keys, but even then, it's not fool proof, and it can't be done willy nilly, or Beric AND Stark would be alive. We never actually found out what happened to Thoros.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Don't forget Kal Drogos...there seems to be more then one style of magic around.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Drogo's resurrection isn't all that different - Dany's baby had to die so Drogo could come back, much as Beric died for Catelyn to come back.
Unless I'm missing something major?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Who died when Beric came back?
Lyrhawn, Thoros was the gaoler who talked to Brienne just before the hanging, right? So as of the end of the last book, he's alive and part of the outlaw band with Lady Stoneheart.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Drogo may not be the best example, since I think there's a great (fantastic, really) chance that his healing was deliberately sabotaged towards a specific end. I mean, towards the end she made it sound like it was just a case of, "Telling you part of the truth and letting you deceive yourself," but even prior to that the signs were clear when she (if I remmember correctly) jammed his wound full of mud, leaves, etc., to 'treat' it.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Carrie: Drogo's resurrection isn't all that different - Dany's baby had to die so Drogo could come back, much as Beric died for Catelyn to come back.
Unless I'm missing something major?
I thought that was different. I thought Beric was basically transferring his own resurrection to Catelyn. And for that matter, Drogo's resurrection wasn't really a resurrection. First, he never actually died. He was just sick. And when he came back, he wasn't really back, he was a shadow of his former self. Considering the magic being used came from Asshai, rather than Myr, that's not really a surprise.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
As a kid, I found that packing wounds with mud is the safest way to keep adults from seeing the blood and making you stop playing and come inside.
Also, I bet I became immune to 99% of all the bacteria in the universe from ages 6-11.
Reading that chapter and thinking back to all the pus-filled scabs on my knees, I did begin to wonder exactly how hard she was trying to save his life.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote: but even prior to that the signs were clear when she (if I remmember correctly) jammed his wound full of mud, leaves, etc., to 'treat' it.
I think you are mistaken. IIRC, the maegi treated the wound with a dry poultice. It itched terribly, however, so he replaced it with a wet mud based one from a Dothraki healer that soothed him.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
yep
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:Originally posted by Foust:
quote:Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:One, Martin plays for keeps; no one just slips out of an impossible situation. Two, it would make for terrible story telling. Lady Stark has already been resurrected...
Um...
Yes... hence it would be dumb for it to happen twice. This is exactly my point.
I disagree. It would be bad storytelling to arbitrarily make resurrection a one-time-only thing - why can't it happen again? He uses it again or he doesn't, as he pleases, but he should have a better reason than "well if I do it again, that would be dumb." He presumably has some idea in his head about how this magic works, and why/whether it would work in other circumstances, and whether any other instances might be likely in the threads of the story.
My fault for using the word resurrection. I mean having a character disappear, almost certainly dead, only to re-appear later in the narrative.
It's a narrative trick to jerk the readers around, rather than a plot point. Doric's and Drogo's resurrections were plot points, and are unrelated to what I am talking about. Lady Stark's was a plot point as well, of course, but it was also a narrative trick. You can only do that once.
I will cry foul if Syrio comes back, or if Ned Stark turns out to be alive (say, a faceless man took his place at the execution).
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by Foust: ... or if Ned Stark turns out to be alive (say, a faceless man took his place at the execution).
I would probably ragequit reading the series if that happened. Syrio being alive? Whatever, he's a minor player and it would be a fun cameo. Ned? No. Just... no.
I should probably brush up on my minor characters (and, indeed, resurrections!) before ADWD. Rumor has it that this knowledge will come in handy.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
The worst part of my decision not to read Dance will be that I have to stop reading all the posts about the series...people just do not use **SPOILERS** like they should...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think we knew from the first page that this wasn't going to be a spoiler-free thread. When it does come out (oh so soon!) we could have a pure spoiler thread, and a non-Dance thread, but, most people will probably still be in the Dance thread. Maybe you should just give in and read it
ETA: Only nine days left!!
[ July 03, 2011, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Maybe I should...but I can just avoid talking about the series until the last book is out. I have other books on my dance card and I don't actually feel like rereading the other books atm anyway. As good as they are, they are a touch depressing.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You're going to just hold off for another five years, AND avoid being spoiled by someone, especially with the TV show trucking ahead so EVERYONE knows what happens?
Hmmm.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
That's the plan. When the last one comes out, I'll buy Dance and Winds, and read them all, and be done with it.
If he dies first, or decides there needs to be 12 more or whatever, then I won't have lost a thing.
I'll be all ready to talk about the series and everyone else will be talking too (when the last one comes out) so, yea, that's the plan.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Still seems a little silly though. If you're already read four of them, and you WANT to know how it ends, then aren't you already committed? And aren't there already cliffhangers?
Somehow I doubt it'll go past two more, but it might, I don't know. Regardless, that line of argument makes more sense for a person who hasn't read any of them, rather than someone who is already in the middle of it but fears being gipped. What are you losing if you read one more and then something happens and you don't get the rest? Seems to me you at least get one more book's worth of answers out of it. It's your choice, but I find that line of reasoning somewhat perplexing.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
If he never finishes the series, I won't read Dance...and if Winds comes out, but isn't the last one, I'll wait til the last one is done done done, and if that last one is never made, I won't read Dance or Winds.
I have no interest in a never ending tragedy with zero closure. It upsets me equally how much the characters have suffered as the wait between books. It might be worth it in the end, and I'll give it a shot, if there is an end, but with out that end, no thank you!
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I find it difficult to put down books or series of books but, once they are down, it is much easier to leave them down. The long delay forced me to "put down" ASoFaI. I am not in any hurry to pick them up again. I have moved on. I probably will take them up again eventually, but I can wait.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Alright, that makes more sense.
Stone, Winds won't be the last one, or at least, it isn't planned to be. Dream of Spring is the last planned novel. I think not tying up the loose ends from Storm would bother me more than reading another 1100 pages of tragedy, mostly because things are already so bad, I'm partially desensitized to it, and in part because it's almost reached the point where things can only stay the same or get better.
The list of characters that I REALLY don't want to die has whittled down to being counted on one hand. If they die, I won't keep reading anyway, so either way I get some sort of closure.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: The list of characters that I REALLY don't want to die has whittled down to being counted on one hand. If they die, I won't keep reading anyway, so either way I get some sort of closure.
Heh. Mine's down to one: Rickon. Everyone else can go hang, and sometimes literally. And if other people do manage to stay alive to the end of the series, well, awesome. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
lol, really, RICKON? You've set the bar pretty low.
I'm pretty much down to Tyrion and Jamie, with Jon on the cusp.
I have mixed feelings though. I'd like to see Jamie dead for what he's done, though, his character is absolutely fascinating right now, and if he continues on his journey from Storm and Feast (though Feast was a downer), then maybe I'd be okay with him surviving. His metamorphosis into an anti-hero is one of the coolest parts of the entire series, and I'm still holding onto that.
I'm interested in what happens with Bran and Cold Hands, but if Bran were to die, I wouldn't shed a tear.
Jon got a little boring after awhile. His time as Lord Commander could be interesting to watch, but, I'm also prepared for it to be a snoozefest, so, he's on the cusp.
I guess if you want to stretch it, I'm interested in Arya and Daenerys, but Arya was pretty boring in Feast. I enjoy the parallels between her and Sansa, but I'm not invested in either character enough to root for survival. Likewise, I'm interested in what happens to Dany, especially since so many different characters are supposed to intersect in Mereen, but if she died and that half of the world was cut off, it wouldn't do much to me, other than to seem laughably silly to invest that much time in a plot line that lifts right out of the story. He either connects her to what's happening on Westeros, or he'll lose a lot of credibility as a storyteller in my eyes.
I'm more rooting for plot lines than I am for characters at this point. Sort of changes my level of emotional involvement from where it was two books ago.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
I'm in the same boat Lyrhawn. I think the only character that I would be extremely upset if they died is Arya.
I'm fine with Dany dying, but only after she has had her shot at trying to take over the 7 Kingdoms. I like Jon a lot, but I have a horrible feeling in my gut that the Dany/Jon shippers are right in that they will eventually hook up.
Bran.... Well Bran is strange. He's been looking for this three eyed crow but we don't really know the purpose. Bran may die eventually but I think GRRM has something special in store for him first. If he is going to become a great warg (they hinted at this) that can control dragons, he may be the only one that can stop Dany when she comes.
Still though.... I REALLY don't know how GRRM is going to resolve all of these storylines. There is probably going to be a war when Dany lands in the seven kingdoms, but there is also all of that business with the Others, Stannis, the Greyjoys, Dorn, Littlefinger, and Stoneheart. He has two books after ADWD, and unless he is going to take the easy way out of some of these, I really don't know how he is going to finish it.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Arya's got some dark deeds ahead of her, I think. And probably a reunion with Nymeria. She's safe for a while. I'd bet up to $5 on it.
I wonder if GRRM actually intends to provide some kind of satisfactory end to all the extant plotlines (not to mention any he's going to introduce going forward). If so, I agree that it would be quite a feat to do so in 3 remaining novels. To me it's starting to feel a bit like the byzantine decline of the Wheel of Time series. Although only a bit. It's not tedious for me yet, whereas with WoT I slogged through two whole novels AFTER I completely stopped enjoying them (and I haven't read the last three or so). I still have hope for ASoIaF.
Lyrhawn: "...in part because it's almost reached the point where things can only stay the same or get better."
I worry that GRRM might view this as a challenge. I think things will get much worse. Winter is coming.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
Yeah, it HAS to get worse. Every book so far has made a big deal about just how bad the coming winter will be. If all we get is more of the same with a little snow thrown in, I think that I would feel cheated.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
One of the other reasons I lost enthusiasm for this series is exactly what scfibum is describing. GRRM keeps adding new characters, and levels of complications which make it hard to imagine he will be able to fully conclude all issues (well).
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Yeah, I lost all my enthusiasm and will read the Dance spoiler threads so I can find out what happens without investing any more money or extended amounts of time into GRRM's sad and twisted world.
I feel a bit cheated...I mean, I was very angry when the story I thought I was promised - the Stark family struggling against Winter and the rest of the kingdom - didn't materialize. I got over that, and got invested in Dany and Jon and even Jaime to a degree, plus wondering when Arya would reunite with Nymeria (I firmly believe she's alive), and when Jon's parentage would be revealed.
But as others have already said, so many plot lines, so many new characters...and it has gotten so convoluted and so many people have died or had horrible things happen to them it almost feels like a psychological experiment at this point. As if GRRM is sitting around saying "I wonder what I have to do to get people to stop reading...." He already found my threshold. I'm out.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:...it almost feels like a psychological experiment at this point. As if GRRM is sitting around saying "I wonder what I have to do to get people to stop reading...."
I have said this before, but as a bet with another writer instead of a social experiment.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
There has been this huge looming Others thing plot going on (It was in the prologue of the first book!) and with the remaining books it just seems like he will not be able to give it justice. I want the others to breach the wall and start marching on King's Landing!
Then again maybe that is exactly what happens and Dany comes and saves the day with her Dragons and everyone is so thankful they crown her Queen and they live happiky ever after. It would be an easy way for GRRM to tie everything up.
You saw it here first folks.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Then again maybe that is exactly what happens and Dany comes and saves the day with her Dragons and everyone is so thankful they crown her Queen and they live happiky ever after. It would be an easy way for GRRM to tie everything up.
I doubt it will happen exactly like this, but some form of it has been my prediction for years. He's been setting up Jon + Dany versus the Others since book 1, IMO.
Added: I suspect Jon and Dany will be married and rule as King and Queen, though since Dany is barren I am betting there will be a second wife that bears the children. I have no likely guesses as to the identity of the third dragon head.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:I have no likely guesses as to the identity of the third dragon head.
My guess is Arya.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geraine:
You saw it here first folks.
Not really. Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:I have no likely guesses as to the identity of the third dragon head.
My guess is Arya.
Nah--it's either Moon Boy or Butterbumps.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
I don't find it at all likely that Jon and Dany will be married. I can't imagine what would make him leave the Watch at this point.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
The end of the Watch.
[Edit - Unlike my previous post, this one is serious. I think that The Wall will fall, the Others will be defeated, and the Watch will be disbanded. With that done, Jon will no longer be bound by his vow.]
[ July 05, 2011, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Jake ]
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I think that is the only way it can end without having the orbit of earth shifted by thousands of books being flung against walls.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
:: laugh ::
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
That would be possible. Something about it strikes me as unlikely though. I can see the Others being thrown back. But permanently defeated? Remember, this is not the first Long Night the world has seen.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
It seems possible that Bran's remaining role is to discover why the Others exist and how to permanently destroy them forever and ever. And it seems certain the Wall is coming down, and that no one knows how to rebuild it, so the Watch could also end in pure helplessness.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Also I totally think Jaime and Brienne are getting hitched.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jake: The end of the Watch.
[Edit - Unlike my previous post, this one is serious. I think that The Wall will fall, the Others will be defeated, and the Watch will be disbanded. With that done, Jon will no longer be bound by his vow.]
I think this is perhaps the MOST plausible line. It seems like something is supposed to be different with THIS winter. Why else would even the wildings be fleeing Beyond the Wall? I think the wall will fall, the Others will cross, and there will have to be a pretty big battle in the north. This series really needs a major reckoning. Too many scores still to settle. I've gotten to the place where I expect many issues will be resolved without justice, and I'm okay with that, but there are still so many shoes left to drop.
I don't know how I feel about Jon and Dany as King and Queen. If we assume the biggest rumor about his father is true, then it'd be a little icky, though, not un-Targaryen. I think it's fascinating that Martin has the series to a point where Dany is the savior, where we're actively rooting for her to conquer Westeros. At this point, she's the only power player left without Westerosi blood on her hands, who might actually serve as the consensus choice.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: ...so many people have died or had horrible things happen to them it almost feels like a psychological experiment at this point. As if GRRM is sitting around saying "I wonder what I have to do to get people to stop reading...." He already found my threshold. I'm out.
It's been unpleasant at times to find out that a favorite character is dead, or maimed, or has something else horrible happen. And all the starvation and suffering throughout is, really, just terrible to read about. What Tywin had his "dogs" do, particularly, makes me ill.
Yet...in a way I appreciate that GRRM is trying to show what it would be like if feudal society gets into large scale war. It WOULD be horrible. And while I find it sort of unpleasant to think about, I think maybe there's some value in thinking about how horrible war can be. But more than that, I still think it's a darn good story. (Even A Feast for Crows. I enjoyed it well enough.)
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
Just remember that Jon broke his vows once for the "greater good" and though he has sworn not to do it again, he may be compelled to do so.
For example, lets say Jon found out he was Rhaegar's son. The Others get so powerful that they became almost unstoppable. Dany will only help if Jon marries her or ******* (fill in some stupid reason GRRM comes up with in his books)
As long as Arya makes it through the books I'm happy. After she uses her supreme ninja assassin powers to kill Cersei of course...
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
Jaime is going to kill Cersei.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I'm making no bets on that particular murder; Cersei is trying hard to make everyone want her dead.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Cersei is the one who survives.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Sean, that is the one thing I'm hoping will happen.
Don't get me wrong the story was compelling. Still is, in a way. That's why I said I will read spoiler threads and get plot summaries from the internet because part of me does still want to know what happens. But I do not have the desire to wade through the books to find it.
I don't read books to find out what the horrors of war would be like in a feudal society. When I'm not reading for work, I like to use books as escapism - it's one reason I love sci fi and fantasy - it's a different world and it doesn't feel anything like mine. Those parts of ASOIAF I love. I love the dragons, the Others, the Wall, etc. I don't want to see the realistic horrors of base human nature. I'm a teacher in an urban high school. I see enough of the sad effects of humans being terrible to each other. I don't want to experience it when I read.
That does not mean that I judge anyone who does enjoy the series. To each his own, that's why there are so many different types of stories to read, so we can find what we like. I see things I like in ASOIAF, but the balance is too heavily skewed toward things I don't like for me to stay with it. So I'll keep reading, and following your threads because I still have some connection to parts of the story. I hope you guys don't mind.
And who knows, I might get sucked in and wind up downloading Dance on my Nook. If y'all tell me there's lots of good Dany and Arya and Jon chapters I may have to. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Spoilers, if it matters:
I think Cersei will be torn apart by a mob. She's unleashed too many forces that are hostile to her. Characters who are stupid or naive die with regularity in this series. It took me awhile to accept that most of the Starks who died did so because they were blinded by honor at the expense of good sense.
Jamie pities her more than hates her, I think, though Tyrion's words that keep echoing in his head, and Cersei's constant goading certainly could push him in that direction. But the simple fact of the matter is that with Joffrey dead, with Tywin dead, with Tyrion gone, with Jamie no longer her champion, and with an army of religious zealots on the march, she simply has no one left to protect her. I gave her way too much credit for being smart after she turned the tables on Ned. She only got ahead of him because of Sansa. Otherwise, she's pretty much miscalculated or been outsmarted by everyone around her for several books now, and she's spiraling down more and more.
Personally, I'd like to see zombie-Catelyn kill her, but I don't know how that's work. There's a long, long line.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I'll keep reading no matter who dies.
But Arya, Mance, and Tyrion, rock on baby, rock on.
(I havent read Feast)
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: And who knows, I might get sucked in and wind up downloading Dance on my Nook. If y'all tell me there's lots of good Dany and Arya and Jon chapters I may have to.
Considering there weren't any Dany or Jon chapters in AFFC, and only a couple Arya ones, rest assured that there will be plenty. And they will be good.*
As for the Rickon bit - well, I figure if I keep my expectations low and someone else manages to survive, I'll be that much happier with the conclusion of the series. My dream-world ending, though, is for Jon not to marry Dany. Ugh. The incest doesn't bother me (um, in terms of the series, that is...), but rather what a lack of maturation it would show in Jon's character. Or maybe a reversal. I thought he'd managed to grow up after the whole Wildling adventure, and sworn himself to the Black for good; if this changes so he can be King, I'll be terribly disappointed.
And then I'll chuck the book across the room.
*I say these things as someone who's read the spoilers from several of the German people who already have ADWD and spoken with friends about plot points in the book. I've not read it myself, but even just the tantalizing bits I've gotten have sounded epic and have only added to my desperation to read this frigging book.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Egads, you read spoilers? I couldn't possibly. Just need to stay spoiler free for another couple of days.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I say, one thing that always bugged me was the disparity between the Stark boys and girls. It's like, the Stark's motto should be "Winter is coming...unless you're a girl, then don't worry about it. You should be Lady Prissypants."
The direct cause of Ned dying came about because Sansa was not only not trained for hard times and tough thinking, but actively encouraged away from it.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Even the Starks can't escape societal rules and gender norms, though, Arya tries pretty hard. The Starks simply babied the girls too much. Ned had a soft spot.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I think Cat raised them as southern ladies (or tried to in Arya's case), because that's what she was and knows.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Makes you wonder a bit about Ned's mom, or Lyanna.
More and more I'd love to read a prequel that details the rebellion, Lyanna and Rhaegar. With every snippet, I become more enamored with that story than this one.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Speaking of Stark ladies, I can't wait to meet the She-Wolves of Winterfell in Dunk and Egg 4.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
Belle, I found myself thinking about your response to the book on and off last night and this morning. It's so different from mine.
quote:Originally posted by Belle: [QB] I feel a bit cheated...I mean, I was very angry when the story I thought I was promised - the Stark family struggling against Winter and the rest of the kingdom - didn't materialize.
When it became clear that this was not what the story was actually going to be, I was delighted. Don't get me wrong--I was upset by Lady's death, and even more upset by Ned's, but I was very happy to be surprised by the story, and to realize that what I'd taken for a fairly predictable, formulaic low-magic fantasy novel...wasn't.
quote:But as others have already said, so many plot lines, so many new characters...
It's certainly a complex story, and I can't even imagine trying to juggle so many characters as a writer, but as a reader I haven't really found them overwhelming. I was a bit put off by the new characters in Feast my first time through, but on rereading it they didn't bother me.
quote:Originally posted by Belle: I don't read books to find out what the horrors of war would be like in a feudal society.
If there's going to be a war, I find it refreshing to have it depicted realistically. It's good to have it not be glossed over for a change, or have the combatants not be given better-than-is-realistic natures for a change, I think.
quote:When I'm not reading for work, I like to use books as escapism - it's one reason I love sci fi and fantasy - it's a different world and it doesn't feel anything like mine. Those parts of ASOIAF I love. I love the dragons, the Others, the Wall, etc.
Interestingly, I have often said in the past that I wish there were less magic in Martin's world, and that I felt a little dismayed that it's no longer just flickering in the reader's peripheral vision. That isn't to say that I don't love books that involve strong fantasy elements; it's just that the first book read so much like historical fiction set in an imaginary-but-realistic world, and worked so well as that, that I was disappointed when it started to move away from that (not that there weren't fantasy elements from the start, of course, but they were handled with a light touch, and didn't directly intrude into the narrative much).
quote:I don't want to see the realistic horrors of base human nature. I'm a teacher in an urban high school. I see enough of the sad effects of humans being terrible to each other. I don't want to experience it when I read.
That's what it boils down to, really. I'm enjoying seeing a fantasy novel that includes that. It's absolutely fair that you don't, and just as you don't judge people who enjoy the series, I don't judge you for disliking it, but for me it's exactly what I want to be reading. As you say, there are stories enough for all of us to find things that are to our liking.
[Edit - I'm curious--what do you think of Rothfuss' stuff, Belle? He subverts fantasy tropes pretty thoroughly as well, but does so in a way that I think might be more palatable to you.]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Jake, I agree with you on your analysis. It's obvious both of us like different types of stories, and are comfortable with "live and let live."
I love Rothfuss. I love Rothfuss not only for the story, but his writing is exceptional. His writing is beautiful in a way...it has a richness that I enjoy. The man is not just a skillful storyteller but a gifted writer. Lois McMaster Bujold is another I put in that category. I love how she can set a scene in just a few lines yet it is fully realized, rich and detailed.
At any rate, I admire Martin's ability to hold the many story lines together in his head, even if it doesn't seem to be translating well to the reader yet. Perhaps I didn't give Feast a chance - I read it once and was so disappointed it never gained a re-read from me.
I tend toward more light-hearted fare, I guess. One of my favorites right now is Kevin Hearne's Iron Druid series, which is totally fun and entertaining. But, I don't mind reading about some character deaths, and some "darkness" is part of the world and I don't read straight romance with it's always happy-happy endings because it's too unrealistic. But, I do want an overall positive spin to my books just because I want to set the book down and feel better for having read it, not depressed. It's fascinating, really, to examine why we read and what we are hoping for the experience.
I don't want it too positive, but I don't want it too far in the other direction either. I'm looking for a balance, with it skewed toward happier endings, I suppose. For example, look at Mistborn:
**Mild Spoilers for Sanderson's Mistborn series** * * * * I didn't understand why people were upset at the ending. It felt right to me. Yes, there was loss, and sadness, but the overall result was positive and the losses felt like a necessary sacrifice, because great evil is not defeated without sacrifice. * * * * End Spoilers
Wow, Jake, now you have me really examining why I feel the way I do, LOL! It's fun, though.
So, to sum up, here's what I think about my reading tastes:
I want a story that takes me to another world, or at least one sufficiently different from my own. I want there to be conflict, and struggle, and people who overcome that. There can be loss, there can be death and suffering, but it all must be shown to be worth it - to be a necessary part of the struggle. I'm losing patience with Martin because it's too much wrapped up in the suffering and the death and the loss and I don't have faith that it will be shown to be worth it. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong, and if that is so, I'll buy Mr. Martin's books and read them and recommend them to others the way I did after the first two books, and the way I recommend Mistborn now.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Against my better judgment, I took a peek at this little Q&A, and it a neat little blurb. No spoilers, the reviewer is basically just saying that there are some major revelations, plot twists, cliffhangers both answered and posed, and the reviewer ranks it third out of the series, ahead of Clash and Feast.
In other words, for most people, it looks like it won't be a disappointment.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
This question from that interview strikes me as naive: "Wait, does that mean there are major character deaths?"
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
You know, I've already pre-ordered my copy on Amazon. So if this thing isn't a blow-out massive best-seller, it ain't my fault. xD
Anyway. In retrospect, the thing about Feast I liked the most was all the new characters. Returning to the Iron Islands as someone other than Theon was great, especially with the cliffhanger ending. And seeing Dorne for the first time was good too, and I enjoyed seeing the set-up going on there.
Of course, the best things about these two stories was that they suggested what was going to happen in Dance, with characters meeting Dany and new plots going to her. They kind of, ultimately, tied things back together in a book that wasn't very well tied.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The two things I liked the most about Feast were the focuses on Dorne and the Iron Islands. I found that shocking because the Iron Islands were totally uninteresting to me until we got into Damphair's POV and learned more about it. Dorne was fascinating from the get go. I feel like Martin dropped a novel's worth of details and new characters on us, like with the Sand Snakes, and then didn't cover really any of it. That was frustrating, but I hope for more later. It was all fascinating.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Dorne doesn't work for me, I have to admit; I consider that entire part of the planet to be an irrelevant distraction at this point. But perhaps we'll get to see Dany completely destroy it, which will at least justify some of the time put into it.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
In fairness, pretty much everything that's happened with Dany for three novels has had nothing to do with the entire rest of the novel. We let it go, of course, because there's sort of a tacit agreement between the reader and Martin that at some point, she'll become relevant and play a more integrated role, but it's one hell of a buildup.
Not sure why Dany would destroy Dorne. The only reason I can think to is because Dorne was the last kingdom to bend the knee to the Targaryens, but, on the other hand, they're also the most likely to team up with Dany given their combined anger over what happened to Elia and Rhaegar. It would seem she has much bigger fish to fry.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Yeah, I mean, the whole point of the Dorne thing was to set up it's now inevitable war against King's Landing. Myrcella's disfigurement may well be the trigger.
Furthermore, combining that plot thread with the revelation that Quentin Martell is going to try to get Dany on their side, and you have a very convenient path to get Dany to Westeros: through an alliance with Dorne, as thy share the goal of destroying the Lannisters. And everyone else.
Basically, what's coming is The War of the Five Kings 2: Electric Boogaloo: The War of the Three Queens. (that's kinda what Petyr said in Sansa's last Feast chapter, anyway.)
Of course, I am sure there will be complications on this path. One of whom is named Victarion Grayjoy, and another is that Valyrian horn.
Also, the whole kingsmoot thing must surely tie in to the return of Theon as main character #4. Conservation of detail (ha!) being what it is.
Basically, from where I stand, those chapters are the most important in Feast, and will almost certainly be worth it both in Dance and in Winds.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Some of them I understand, but cutting Craster? What will Sam do beyond the wall? Cutting the Blackfish (even though he didn't show up on the HBO Tully family tree and will probably be cut out anyhow, despite being my favorite minor character)? The Red Wedding and Siege of Riverrun will be boring affairs, indeed.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
They can totally cut Craster. Gilly can be a refugee from some other wildling's household. The mutiny can happen when men are too afraid to stand and fight the Others, instead of over sausage.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
So I noticed something....strange while reading A Feast for Crows. Gregor Clegane is supposedly dead, with his skull being sent to Dorne.
Cersei has been talking to Qyburn about some experiment that he is working on in extreme secrecy. Cersei keeps giving Qyburn people for him to take down into the dungeons to experiment on. When Tommen was fascinated with Loras, Cersei mentioned it to Qyburn, who said that he would soon have someone better for Tommen to look up to, but that he couldn't tell her who yet. Qyburn said he will have unquestionable devotion to Tommen and Cersei. Cersei also ordered a suit of armor that the blacksmiths told her would be too heavy for any man to wear.
Damnit, I think Qyburn is stitching together The Mountain using other peoples body parts..... I think this sets it up so that Sandor can finally kill his brother, assuming he is alive. Hopefully not until after Un-Gregor goes on a murderous rampage though. Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
What's worse than The Mountain That Rides?
The Zombie Mountain That Rides.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
Worse? I'm sure you meant to say better. Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: Worse? I'm sure you meant to say better.
Can it be both?
Worse for everyone in Westeros.
Better on the awesomeness factor.
Though I'm kind of leary that so many characters we thought to be dead may end up coming back. I half expect Ned to return in the last book as a wight with the way things are going.
And for some strange reason, whenever I think about Zombie Gregor and Qyburn, I keep imagining Qyburn yelling "Terrible news, everyone, Rotface is dead! But great news everyone, he left behind plenty of ooze for me to use! Whaa...? I'm a poet, and I didn't know it? Astounding!"
Ah Professor Putricide, you are missed. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
It isn't Zombie Gregor, it's FrankenGregor.
I'll be pretty surprised if Sandor takes up arms against him, though. He's off in a monastery on an island well away from King's Landing, and I suspect that he's there to stay. I could easily be wrong, but I don't expect that we'll see much more of him.
I agree that Craster can be cut, but I don't see how Vargo Hoat possibly can.
Belle, it is fun, isn't it, turning this kind of stuff over in your head and figuring out exactly why you like what it is you like? You and I have quite a bit of overlap in what we enjoy. I'm not somebody that has to have every story be bleak (I'm looking at you, Raja!), though I do enjoy that now and then. What do you think of, say, Shakespeare's tragedies, or Euripides' (or Sophocles' or Aeschylus'--I just happen to like Euripides more than the other two)?
In any case, we share a fondness for Rothfuss's work. Have you ever had the good fortune to go to a signing of his? He's an incredibly engaging speaker.
Have you ever read Daniel Abraham's Long Price Quartet? It's fantastic, and I suspect that it'd be up your avenue.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Some of them I understand, but cutting Craster? What will Sam do beyond the wall? Cutting the Blackfish (even though he didn't show up on the HBO Tully family tree and will probably be cut out anyhow, despite being my favorite minor character)? The Red Wedding and Siege of Riverrun will be boring affairs, indeed.
Write a workaround, I don't much care about Craster. But the Blackfish is my fave secondary character, and a total badass! I disapprove.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Personally, I think Craster is a perfect character on which to hang a single, Sam-centered episode of the show. Since TV series actually need self-contained episodes that focus on the main characters every now and then, even if the main "plot" isn't advanced, the removal of the Craster storyline -- with its somewhat unusual "and here's a backwoods hick horror movie story inserted really quickly into this fantasy novel" vibe -- would be disappointing. On the other hand, the Blackfish (while cool) doesn't bring anything interesting to the table from a story perspective.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
How many episodes are they going to have for season 2? If it's only 10 there's no time to devote an entire episode to that story, good and useful as it would be.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:As producer David Benioff recently said:...b.) we have about 540 minutes to tell the entire story each season. And you can only go back and forth between so many characters before it all starts to feel so diffused that you lose track of what's going on and you lose touch with the central characters.
Ten 54 minute episodes seems right.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Well crap. I wish they'd do 12 or 14 episode seasons.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Yup, seems kinda arbitrary.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Do they have to stick to a one book per season model?
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
While they can cut Crastor out, I'm concerned about Gilly. Gilly was a girl that was married to her own father, and because of that she was..... I don't want to say damaged because that is the wrong word. Scarred maybe. She did not trust men. I guess they could just come upon her as the only survivor of a village destroyed by wildlings, and say they raped her, but I think I'd rather have the whole Crastor thing. It helps show how passionate and caring Sam is.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
There was talk when the show was first being considered of having the second season be 12 or 14 episodes to try and cover the extra material. There was also talk of splitting the third book into two separate seasons. It would appear that at least for Clash, they decided not to go that route. One hopes that for Storm, they really realize that it will require a lot more than 10 episodes if you want to get anything close to a good story out of it.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
Yeah, every single SoIaF book is on the best sellers list at the same time. And has been for over a month. Come Tuesday, half of the list will be his books. That's just ridiculous.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I am so pleased for him. He has struggled a lot for this.
[ July 08, 2011, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Is it often that old books like this become bestsellers for multiple weeks, so many years after publication?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Probably only when they get made into TV series.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
I hope they don't cut Craster. We learn important facts about the Others in those scenes.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Wait, isnt season 2 supposed to twelve episodes long?
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: Is it often that old books like this become bestsellers for multiple weeks, so many years after publication?
Yes and no. They don't usually pop up out of the blue but if something draws attention to them (movie, TV series) then yes, they often will jump to the top.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
Just downloaded Dance on to my Kindle. Currently it's sitting next to me on my rack, waiting to be "opened".
I'm afraid if I start reading, I won't be able to stop.
Posted by Yebor1 (Member # 1380) on :
Amazon shipped my copy of Dance this weekend. earlier than i expected
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
Heading to the bookstore soon to get a copy. Yeah I know, old fashioned ink on paper. Does that make me an old fart?
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
No. You're only an old fart if you didn't purchase said copy on Amazon or some other online thingie, like I did.
Old fart. Posted by Aerin (Member # 3902) on :
I have people in town. When it's just me again, I'll read it...
Actually, I might wait until after the Harry Potter movie. Harry Potter, Torchwood, and Dance with Dragons all in the same week. It's a geek overload.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
Got it. Still need to finish re-reading the last couple chapters of Feast first though. Would have finished that already but had to put brakes on my truck and take it in for an inspection. Don't you just hate it when real life intrudes on your reading?
As for geek overload, yeah I suspect I'll be reading it in the theater while waiting for Potter to start.
But then, Potter might confuse the heck out of me now that I have read Methods of Rationality. I might not be able to keep the two stories separate anymore. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I get back from vacation on Thursday, and Dance will be waiting in the mail for me. But, I was in the middle of reading clash when I left, so I might finish that, then try to blow through storm and feast. I want to be totally in the some when I start, even if it means an extra few days of waiting.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
I hear you, Lyrhawn. I spent the last month or so catching up on the series for just that reason. When I finished Feast last week I wasnted to dive into the Dunk & Egg novellas, just to stay in Westros until I could start in on Dance, but I apparently loaned out my first Legends anthology, so no luck there.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Bought it. Read it. Trew it across the room near the end.
I like the book, but I tbink I migbt be done with the series.
I fraking hate Martin.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: Bought it. Read it. Trew it across the room near the end.
Page 913? :curious:.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: Bought it. Read it. Trew it across the room near the end.
And the earth shifts the first tiny bit...
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Spoilers below...no really - heed my warning. Unless you have the read the book or are like me, and only planning to read spoilers, do not read below. * * * * * * * * SPOILERS - LAST WARNING!!!!
I am so, so, so glad I didn't waste any money on this book. I've now read spoiler recaps of every chapter and a confirmed in my belief that Martin is deranged, sick, and only interested in seeing just how far he can take something. Killing Jon? What? He and Dany were the only reason for me to keep reading at all - the idea that Jon is the Prince that was Promised, etc. With that gone, there are, for me, no redeeming features in the story at all. What is Martin's deal? I mean, really.
Sorry, had to rant. And I know I'm a heretic, only reading spoilers, but I wasn't sure I wanted to give Martin any money, and I am glad I followed through with that. * * * * * * * END SPOILERS
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
SPOILERS * * * * * * * * * I'm fairly certain that Jon is not dead (well, not out of the story. He may be "dead" in some sense, but I believe he will retain a narrative agency that is a continuation of his previous narrative agency).
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I'm going the spoilers route too...what was the best website you found Belle?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
And I liked the book quite a bit. Of course, *my* favorite character (Jon & Dany are second and third, not sure what order) is still kicking ass and taking names. Go Tyrion!
[ July 15, 2011, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: SPOILERS * * * * * * * * * I'm fairly certain that Jon is not dead (well, not out of the story. He may be "dead" in some sense, but I believe he will retain a narrative agency that is a continuation of his previous narrative agency).
Yeah, it's kind of an essential moment if he is the Prince That Was Promised--after all, the prophecy says he "shall be born again amidst smoke and salt." You don't get born again if you don't die first. (And in Jon's final paragraphs, well--"tears running down his cheeks . . . the wound was smoking.") Plus we've seen (over, and over, and over again) that Jon takes his vow to not let his watch end "until my death" very seriously, so if he's ever going to leave the Watch . . .
Mind, all of this only makes me think it was even more of a cheap-ass move to end the book right after his "death." It doesn't even work as a cliffhanger--we know he's not going to stay dead, whether because of warging, Melissandre, or some third means of life-after-death yet unrevealed--so what's the point?
[Caveat: I don't necessarily think Jon is the Prince That Was Promised--Martin's more than capable of doing fake-outs--but I certainly think his final scene was meant to lend strong support to that theory, and I would lay money on his death being reversed in some way.]
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Jon was pretty spectacular in the book, which was pleasantly surprising. Tyrion and Dany both got a bit boring - their chapters, for the first time ever, were less enjoyable for me to read than Bran's chapters. Reek was a compellingly painful storyline to read (and a bit gratifying at the end, even!).
But for me, the winner will always be Davos. There's just something about the one honest guy that appeals to me.
Spoilery PS
*
*
*
No way is Jon dead. Between Mel, Ghost, and the "fade to black" instead of obvious corpsification, it's pretty much inconceivable that Jon passes permanently. And even if he does turn out to be dead, I'll applaud the narrative choice. Sometimes, good people get betrayed and die, and things go to hell. As long as it doesn't mean Sam comes back in a quivering rage, I'm okay with pretty much anything happening.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Stone Wolf - here is a chapter by chapter summary and at the end is a link to a comprehensive review.
Thanks Belle! Will read at lunch.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
Good summary, though I strongly quibble with some of his interpretations (and one I think is flat out wrong).
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I really enjoyed the book.
At about page 600 I got really worried, because everything was going so well for everyone and I assumed the $!#& was about to hit the fan. But it didn't. There's so much hope for the "good guys" at the end of this book that wasn't there after ASoS or AFFC.
SPOILERS! . . . . . . . . . . . . I am a big Jon Snow fan, but I didn't even flinch when they killed Jon. I know he's not dead.
Bran and Arya are busy being awesome, Rickon is safe with Davos alive and on the hunt, Wyman Manderly is killing Freys, Cersei is getting owned, Tyrion is inching closer to riding a dragon, Brienne is alive, Jaime isn't tossing anyone from windows, the Lannisters and Tyrells are both as paranoid as Cersei...compared to the Red Wedding this is like picking peaches in Dorne.
Sure, there's chaos at the Wall, but that's something that's going to end real quick once the Others come knocking. The Boltons seem strong, but that letter reeks of desperation. Victarion and Euron will kill each other over Dany, and a level-headed Asha is alive to rule the Ironmen if need be.
Sure, George has time to toss some more $!#@ into the fan in the next 2000 pages, but I like that some order is being restored to Westeros. Or, rather, the disorder is becoming such that Dany and MaybeAegon only have to deal with Euron and some token resistance on their way to save the Wall from the Others. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm not reading anything in this thread because I suspect spoilers abound...but I wanted people who were reading it before to know that I started posting in my Song of Ice and Fire blog again, since I started reading Dance yesterday.
Lyr. You may not see this. But YAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!~
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
Well, I finally finished it, took my Kindle with me to the field.
*Some Spoilers* . . . . . . . . .
First things first, having just read the 3rd Dunk and Egg story, I'm almost positive the 3 eyed crow is, in fact, Lord Brynden Rivers. (aka Bloodraven) One of the Children of the Forest says he has "A thousand eyes and one", that's too much of a giveaway for it not to be him. Which leaves me to wonder, when does Bloodraven take the black? Does Aegon V exile him, or his father? Or do his greendreams lead him north of his own accord? Plus, the entire book, with the Golden Company, Aegon, etc, was about Aegon IV's bastards and the fallout of the Dance of Dragons and War of the Ninepenny Kings, and the noble families exiled because of it. Bloodraven fits perfectly.
I was very pleasantly surprised by how relatively "upbeat" (and boy, is that a relative term) Dance was compared to the past 2 books. It was slow and meandering, just like Feast, but where Feast spent hundreds of pages describing a war ravaged continent with pools choked with corpses and so forth, and was barely readable for me, Dance is like fine wine, to be sipped slowly and enjoyed.
I loved the insane amount of detail Martin puts into describing the various characters journeys on the eastern continent, each ruin they pass by or free city they visit, all seem steeped in a deep and ancient history, and it's so effortlessly filled out I half believe Martin has written in his head books worth of stories behind each of these ancient peoples and gods and institutions. He's the only author other than Tolkien I've seen to put put so much effort into creating an immersive and detailed milieu. Not even Rothfuss, for all his talent, can come close to rivaling the sheer size and believability of his world.
I'm glad to finally see it in places where it's not all bloody and burnt and corpsified.
Speaking of which, I spent the entire book half holding my breath, waiting for the shoe to drop. "Tyrion's having too much fun with his companions, surely pirates will come and rape and murder everyone!", things like that, I was sure at any point something horrible would happen and kill off a good dozen of our favorite characters. I could scarce believe it when it never happened. Reek's chapters are the closest this book comes to even touching the sadism and despair of the ones before it, and even those end on a happy note.
Don't really think Jon's dead for long, his death didn't even phase me. Don't think Stannis is defeated either, though it wouldn't bother me either way - I never cared much for him.
I'll miss Kevan, he was one of the few good guys in a city full of liars and murderers. It doesn't seem like good men survive in King's Landing for very long.
edit: Looked it up, apparently Bloodraven *was* in fact exiled by Aegon V and rose to be Lord Commander. So that clinches it. It's interesting all the thousands of little details you forget - I didn't even realize Martin had told his story in ASoIaF yet.
[ July 24, 2011, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Dogbreath ]
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
The funny thing about Kevan is that while he would've practiced effective governance and diplomacy (like his bro), I would say he's a far cry from being a good man-also like his bro. Less ruthlessly awful than his bro, but so often party to things...but perhaps on his own he would've been good.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
I can't off the top of my head think of anything he's done bad on his own. He's followed his brother loyally, and didn't do much to stop the creation of Ser Robert Strong (*shudder*) but even then I can't think of any massacres - the worst he's taken part in is brutal battles. He loves his wife and children dearly, grieves his murdered son bitterly, and wants nothing more than peace. His first step after taking over for Cersei is to get rid of all the cruel, evil men she's surrounded herself with and restore decency and honor to the throne.
Of course, he's also a brilliant and ruthless general, but so was Robb Stark, for example. (whose men were guilty of a lot of the same crimes the Lannister men committed... though not with Robb's explicit approval)
Kevan sort of reminds me of Eddard, with Tywin as his Robert.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
One thing I find rather jarring about A Song of Ice and Fire: for how incredibly lush and intricately detailed the world is, GRRM doesn't seem to give a crap about time. There's no calendar, and time seems to flow differently in different places. For example:
Dany is stated to be 13 at the beginning of A Game of Thrones, and at the end of a Storm of Swords is 16 years old. With the rather lengthy time span of A Dance with Dragons (lots of people traveling across continents, and one group partially circumnavigating the globe, along with frequent "a month later" or "they marched for 40 days going on"), I estimate by the end of Dance, between 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 years have passed since the beginning of GoT. This is evidenced by the fact the **SPOILERS** dragons are now large enough to ride **SPOILERS** as well as a lot of characters being 3 or 4 years older than the beginning.
But then, at the very end of Dance, we go back to King's Landing, and Tommen is still 8 years old! And still acting like a little boy and playing with kittens and so forth. He should be 11 or 12 by now.
There are a lot of little things like this, they don't really ruin anything, they just make what was otherwise a totally believable realm a little less real. I wish GRRM would have just made up a calendar at the beginning and plotted the events of the series along it, to keep things straightened out.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
Someone has put together a reasonably coherent attempt at a timeline, though it doesn't yet incorporate ADwD. (Good news for the spoiler-phobic, I guess.) There are indeed some, err, problems, including wildly varying travel times and a five month long pregnancy. But many things are resolvable, including the characters' ages. Chapters from different characters' perspectives don't necessarily fall in strict chronological order.
Arya being, as of AFfC, almost a full year ahead of events in Westeros (and even further ahead as of ADwD) seems like it's eventually going to be a problem, though.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
SPOILERS!
I also do not think Jon is dead. I think GRRM made it very obvious when Jon turned his head just in time to make the knife only graze his neck. Not only that, but we have seen that the red priests have the power to return people to life, as we saw with Caetlyn.
I'll bet Jon will die, Mellisandre will bring him back to life, and that Jon will say "Well, I died, so my watch is done. Since you all don't want me here I'm gonna go ahead and leave now. Choose a new Lord Commander for all I care. Good luck with the Others, @$$holes!"
Dany's storyline was kind of "meh." I felt like she was maturing well in the first three books, and in ADWD I felt like she reverted back to the immature girl she was when she first married Drogo. Her last chapter was interesting though. Part of me hopes she unites all of the Dothraki tribes and brings them to Westeros.
I actually wanted more than one Jaime chapter, but I can see why GRRM only did one. It created a cliffhanger for Jaime we didn't have before. Will Brienne betray him? Wait another 6 years to find out!
I loved the Bran storyline but I wish we would have gotten more chapters.
Davos is awesome. He is like a pirate version of Ned.
And Reek. I saw it coming but didn't know how good it would be! I loved the way GRRM had Reek steadily regaining his confidence and courage, as well as feeling remorse for betraying the Starks.
Overall I liked the book a lot. I don't understand why Amazon has so many negative reviews for the book. I thought it was a whole lot better than Feast for Crows. I can't wait for the next one.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
Davos is awesome. He is like a pirate version of Ned.
On this, I think everyone I've seen posting on all the various places I read agrees--there is nothing that is not awesome about his ADwD chapters. Except maybe that there aren't more of them.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
Another thing I remember is GRRM explicitly saying that the Winds of Winter is set 5 years in to the story, and he was just going to go straight from aSoS to WoW (called Dance back then), but he realized he'd have to use too many flashbacks to cover what had happened, so he wrote AFfC and ADwD to over the intervening years. So my guess of 4 1/2 years is probably pretty close. He'll probably finish up the end of the 4th year in the beginning of Winds to bring it up to his 5 year mark.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: Another thing I remember is GRRM explicitly saying that the Winds of Winter is set 5 years in to the story, and he was just going to go straight from aSoS to WoW (called Dance back then), but he realized he'd have to use too many flashbacks to cover what had happened, so he wrote AFfC and ADwD to over the intervening years. So my guess of 4 1/2 years is probably pretty close. He'll probably finish up the end of the 4th year in the beginning of Winds to bring it up to his 5 year mark.
Sounds good to me. Sadly it will probably take him 4-5 years to write the next book. I read he already has about 6 chapters done though. I REALLY hope HBO has made a deal with him to have the sixth book done by the time they get to the sixth season.
Which brings up an interesting question. HBO will most likely combine the 4th and 5th books for the TV show and split it up into 2 seasons. If I go through and re-read all of the books I'll probably read two chapters in AFFC and then one in ADWD, then once I get to where ADWD catches up I'll just finish it off. I figure it would make it a whole lot more enjoyable.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
Finally finished it, been pretty busy unfortunately. . . . . . .....SPOILERS.... . . . . . . . I think there is something fishy going on with Jon's death (though I agree, he will be back). First Wick, after being disarmed by Jon, threw his arms up "as if to say, it was not me." Then Marsh had tears in his eyes as he stabbed him. I wonder if the skinchanger had got inside their heads to make them kill him. Why else spend so much time talking and worrying about him?
I loved the Bran chapters, can't wait to see where that leads.
While I love Tyrion, his chapters bored me. At least he is still alive for future chapters.
I agree that Davos is cool, but he still hasn't done anything really interesting. Hopefully that will change.
I don't think Bolton defeated Stannis. His letter to Jon demanded the return of Reek and Jeyne/Sansa, but those two had just shown up at Stannis' camp. If Bolton had defeated them, he should have them unless they somehow slipped away with Asha and the banker. It reeks (no pun intended) of either desperation or a trap.
I can't wait to see what Robert Strong does.
I was cheering when Dany rode Drogon. Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geraine: Sounds good to me. Sadly it will probably take him 4-5 years to write the next book. I read he already has about 6 chapters done though. I REALLY hope HBO has made a deal with him to have the sixth book done by the time they get to the sixth season.
I don't know... I think a lot of the extended amount of time it took GRRM to write Dance was he spent years writing and rewriting, plus created an insanely detailed continent, and introduced a huge new group of characters. But even with that, once he actually set down and started writing Dance as we have it now, it took him about 2 years.
On the other hand, the longest book in the series, Storm of Swords, was written in less than 2 years. I feel now that "the board has been set", i.e, all the characters are now introduced and in place, everything is set up for the end, that the next 2 books should pretty much write themselves.
Which means it'll probably take him 10 years. Damn.
quote:Which brings up an interesting question. HBO will most likely combine the 4th and 5th books for the TV show and split it up into 2 seasons. If I go through and re-read all of the books I'll probably read two chapters in AFFC and then one in ADWD, then once I get to where ADWD catches up I'll just finish it off. I figure it would make it a whole lot more enjoyable.
They could probably cram both Dance and Feast into a single 20 episode season - I guess we'll have to wait and see if they'll increase the number of episodes as the show goes on.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wingracer: F . . .....SPOILERS.... . . . . . . I don't think Bolton defeated Stannis. His letter to Jon demanded the return of Reek and Jeyne/Sansa, but those two had just shown up at Stannis' camp. If Bolton had defeated them, he should have them unless they somehow slipped away with Asha and the banker. It reeks (no pun intended) of either desperation or a trap.
I don't know. Stannis had his army a short ride away from Winterfell. I don't really see what a bluff accomplishes here, since he'd have to deal with Stannis somehow regardless.
I wonder if this is setting up Melisandre to be a major pov character in the next book. With Stannis defeated, she'll basically be up north in hostile territory with no support except perhaps a handful of Stannis's men that got left behind.
Now that Jon's continued presence at the wall is questionable, we're short on viewpoints into what's happening at the wall. She seems in an excellent place to be that viewpoint.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Okay, I just finished the book a couple hours ago. I've been reading it slower than I normally would over the course of the last month, and damn, even when the things I totally expected ended up happening, I still couldn't quite shrug them off immediately.
SPOILERS, obviously, but then what isn't in this thread?
Obviously, Jon will be back. The thing about it is, I think Martin wrote that expecting most readers to assume he'd be back, so it wasn't a bait and switch. It didn't come out of left field. Melisandre warned him for pages and pages that knives were all around him. And how many conversations did he have with Marsh and others where they left pissed off? And Mormont was only killed a book ago. This was to be expected, nothing to be shocked by. If he actually died, I'd be blown away. But Martin spent way too much time foreshadowing the half dozen different ways in which he could survive. He'll either be in Ghost, or he'll be resurrected in some form or another. There are simply too many outs. Some interesting points regarding Wick and Marsh. I had assumed that Marsh's reaction was because he killed Jon, but on some level he felt really bad about it, yet felt it was best for the Watch. The idea that he could have been possessed by the skinchanger is an interesting, and not impossible one. We haven't seen a lot of human possession, except for Bran with Hodor, but, I think we were supposed to believe that was an exception because Hodor is so simple minded. Marsh and the others I think had a right to want him dead. Bringing the wildings in was one thing, putting a company of Watchmen under the command of Tormund while personally leading a wilding horde in a fight against one of the lords of the north just broke way too damned many rules all at once. He was walking on the edge of a knife, and it stabbed him to death.
It's not that upsetting because frankly we've heard way too many awesome plans set up, like when Robb went to invade the north, that were totally turned aside. I'm past disappointment. Besides, I too think that Ramsay is full of it. I think the idea that this is the game changer that gets Jon away from the Wall is a really interesting one. On the other hand, we can't abandon the Wall. Too much storytelling has been involved with pumping up the Horn of Joramun and the war with the Others to have Jon leave now, or to have our POV with it cut off. Frankly, I'd love to see Melisandre become a POV character in Winds, her one chapter was pretty cool.
I believe that Ramsay captured Mance, and after a bit of flaying and torture, Mance coughed up some of the details, then told him Theon took Sansa north. I can't imagine Roose sallied against Stannis, and I can't imagine Stannis stormed the walls. I also can't imagine that Wyman and the Freys took Stannis by themselves. And besides, why wouldn't Roose have sent the letter? I think it's a ploy.
I think Martin did a really interesting job of leaving almost EVERY character on some sort of cliffhanger.
And I also tend to agree with whoever said the next book won't take as long. After writing Dance, I'm sure he'll want to take a bit of a break, but, the first three were written pretty damned quickly. The second two took so long because they were unplanned, and because they were so unbelievably complicated. He's worked out the complications, he's brought a lot of the storylines together, or at least, he's smoothed a lot of them out to make them a lot more manageable.
By the way, how interesting would it be if Arya was sent to apprentice with Varys? Highly unlikely, but it's be ridiculously fun. They have to get her back in the game somehow, she can't wander in the wilderness forever.
I also never considered the idea that Jon would be the Prince that was Promised. I guess it can't be Rhaegar, who would have been the most obvious choice, since he's dead. That leaves Aegon, or, if the Lyanna/Rhaegar parentage theory works, Jon as the prince. So either Jon is reborn in fire (I'd forgotten that piece of the prophecy), or it's Aegon.
I'll be covering the end of the book, with a recap of the cliffhangers and some hopeful predictions for the next novel in my Westeros Files blog either tonight or tomorrow.
ETA: You know, I can see what Barristan Selmy hasn't been a POV character to this point. Really, it's for the same reason that Varys and Littlefinger aren't allowed to be: They know where the bodies are buried! As it happens, I thought his chapters were some of the best in the book, and I hope he returns. But as far as dropping some knowledge goes, did everyone notice the bits about Ashara Dayne, Ned, and a miscarriage? From what he hinted at, Ashara and Ned did have an affair, and a baby was conceived, but was stillborn, and that's why she killed herself. That would explain why Ned was genuinely sorry for what he did, but still leaves Jon's parentage open. I can't believe that Ned had more than one affair, if even the one, which really adds more fuel to the Lyanna/Rhaegar theory. And add that to what Bran saw.
[ August 12, 2011, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Also an interesting note. At WorldCon in six days, Martin will be reading an excerpt from Winds of Winter. Won't that be interesting?
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: But as far as dropping some knowledge goes, did everyone notice the bits about Ashara Dayne, Ned, and a miscarriage? From what he hinted at, Ashara and Ned did have an affair, and a baby was conceived, but was stillborn, and that's why she killed herself. That would explain why Ned was genuinely sorry for what he did, but still leaves Jon's parentage open. I can't believe that Ned had more than one affair, if even the one, which really adds more fuel to the Lyanna/Rhaegar theory. And add that to what Bran saw.
Mmm. I am of the opinion that what he's actually hinting at is that Ashara and Brandon had an affair. He never uses a first name, just "Stark." In previous books, Barristan has insisted to Dany that Ned Stark is a man of honor; he clearly doesn't think sleeping with Ashara out of wedlock was an honorable act. And we know from Lady Dustin's story about sleeping with Brandon that Brandon was a bit of a rake in his youth, whereas we have nothing but third-hand rumors about Ned.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Yeah, it seems to be the fan consensus that it was Brandon and not Ned. Makes me a bit sad for Ned though, since it seems clear that he had the hots for her.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: But Martin spent way too much time foreshadowing the half dozen different ways in which he could survive. He'll either be in Ghost, or he'll be resurrected in some form or another. There are simply too many outs.
I wonder what a skinchanger can do with a wight. The greenseers up north seem to be able to do something with them, though it isn't clear exactly what's going on.
If the watch is careless with Jon's body or if they get disrupted and lose it somehow, there's a chance it could get reanimated. If that happened, maybe Jon would still be able to interact with it somehow, even if he is "working out of" Ghost. It would be a good way for us to learn more about the Others and Wights and everything else north of the wall, although Brann can fill that role too.
Speaking of which, this could also be a way to get Brann and Jon reunited without reconnecting Brann with society quite yet.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Am I mistaken, or is 'affair' not quite the right word? If memory serves, Ned wasn't actually engaged or married to Cat at the time, but I don't recall clearly at all.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The timeline is a little sketchy, but, Ned and Cat married quickly before Ned went south to rescue Lyanna and such, so, if Ned had the affair when he returned Dawn to Starfall, and hung around for 9 months to bring back the baby, then yeah, affair is the right word.
If it was earlier, like at Harrenhall, then not so much.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: The idea that he could have been possessed by the skinchanger is an interesting, and not impossible one. We haven't seen a lot of human possession, except for Bran with Hodor, but, I think we were supposed to believe that was an exception because Hodor is so simple minded.
Ah, you forgot the very first chapter.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
There are spoilers, of course. There's also some swearing.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I was watching a Google Author interview with Martin, and someone asked him about how he chooses POV characters. After answering, he commented about how he needs to start killing some of them off, because there are simply too many, and someone in the crowd pitifully whimpered "nooooo" to his great amusement. Personally, I don't see why he can't just actually close up some of the plot threads and leave the character alone. Not everyone has to die.
There's a fair bit of interesting stuff in it. He said writing the Red Wedding was the hardest thing he's ever had to write, and he skipped it, wrote the whole rest of the book, then came back to it. And Joffrey's Wedding was the most fun (relatively).
Noemon -
I saw your link and thought "Oooh, this will be good, even though I know what it is!" Though, aw, they could have done a better job with the subtitles.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
There are spoilers, of course. There's also some swearing.
That was good. One of the commentors made some good points:
"Plus with this assassination attempt, he is actually fufilling several parts of the azor ahoi prophecy he dies and is reborn under an bleeding star (one of the guys killed was wearing a star on his cloths) in smoke (the smoke from his wound) and salt (Bowen Marsh's tears). So don't give up hope,"
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think dany still has the stronger claim....but this does help with being the prince that was promised, assuming they are two people.
Lots of people are saying that Lightbringer is actually glamored by mellisandre, and she's just way off with stannis. I've always thought Dawn fit the description better.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
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. The first three books are my favorite I've ever read. The fourth was pretty mediocre. I'm hoping the fifth (coming out in July) returns to form.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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