As much as I like HHG, I don't know if it beats Ender's Game.
Posted by Mr. Y (Member # 11590) on :
Where is number 21?
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
There's two 32s, so... Posted by DSH (Member # 741) on :
Two 32's make up for the missing 21.
Right?
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Animal Farm? Really? Great book, but I wouldn't really call it fantasy.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
What would you call it? It has talking animals in it.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Dystopian Fiction?
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I'm pleased to see both Rothfuss and Sanderson on the list. Disappointed to not see Alastair Reynolds.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Um, just it's regular literature. *shrug* Satire. If it were shelved in the fantasy/SF section of a bookstore or library, I'd either think the people working there were playing a practical joke or a tad dim.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Plenty of regular literature is fantasy or science fiction. Often it has just been around longer. Take a look at Gulliver's Travels for example - man discovers strange lands and meets odd creatures. Classic speculative fiction. You could say the same thing about the Odyssey. Frankenstein is often found on the lit. shelves, but it is science fiction.
I wouldn't use book store organization as a reliable guide. It is a convenience, not a real description.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Uh, I don't think you're getting my point. But whatever, I don't care enough to argue.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I am certainly not getting your point. I think there are better ways of describing fantasy or science fiction than where they are shelved in a bookstore.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I was really bored by Chronicles of Amber and The Moon is a harsh mistress.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
I wouldn't call the Amber books great, by any means, but I definitely find them fun. They're ones I reread every now and then.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I read the first one and put it down. I heard that Guns of Avalon was better, though.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I've read 65/100. Not bad.
It kinda bugs me to see unfinished series that are still in active development on the list. The way it ends can really make or break a series.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: It kinda bugs me to see unfinished series that are still in active development on the list. The way it ends can really make or break a series.
It bothers me that the entire LOTR trilogy is lumped in to one entry, but I can only assume the HHG "trilogy" is not.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
LOTR is much more a single entity than the HHGG stories are.
Does it bother you to see Ender's Game on the list, instead of the Ender Saga?
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
JRRT has said himself that LOTR is not a trilogy, it's a single story, written in six books, that out of convenience was published in three volumes.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Does it bother you to see Ender's Game on the list, instead of the Ender Saga?
No.. 'cause I've only read EG. Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I've read 65/100. Not bad.
It kinda bugs me to see unfinished series that are still in active development on the list. The way it ends can really make or break a series.
I'm at about half that, depending on how liberal I am with my counts (there are several series that I've read some, but not all, of). Were there entries on the list you hadn't heard of before? Did your opinion of any of the books included change as a result of their being on the list (i.e. wouldn't have read them before but now you will)? I'm wondering what the utility of the list is; most of the things I haven't read are on my "I'll get to it sometime" list. There were several though, particularly in the bottom 25 that I wasn't previously aware of.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
There are a few on the list that I've tried to read several times but couldn't get very far in. I'm sure they deserve their spot on the list but they're not to my liking.
I've read the majority on that list, though. I appreciated the link to all 237 books in the running, as it contained more books I haven't read yet.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
I've read 75 of those. There were two I hadn't heard of. There were three that I don't think deserve a place on the list.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: LOTR is much more a single entity than the HHGG stories are.
Does it bother you to see Ender's Game on the list, instead of the Ender Saga?
They include several series of books as single entities on the list.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Yes, that's what we're talking about. Posted by natural_mystic (Member # 11760) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: It kinda bugs me to see unfinished series that are still in active development on the list. The way it ends can really make or break a series.
I agree. I'm ok with ASOIAF given both that it is more than half done (apparently) and the early books have been published more than a decade. For both Rothfuss' 'Kingkiller Chronicles' and Sanderson's 'The Way of Kings' it seems very premature. An example of a series seriously losing its way after a promising start is Greg Keyes' "The Kingdoms of Thorn and Bone."
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Yes, that's what we're talking about.
I was just pointing out that LoTR was by no means the only group of books listed as one entry.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I had already mentioned the unfinished groups of books that were listed as one entity.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I agree. I'm ok with ASOIAF given both that it is more than half done (apparently) and the early books have been published more than a decade. For both Rothfuss' 'Kingkiller Chronicles' and Sanderson's 'The Way of Kings' it seems very premature."
I put ASoIaF in the premature category -- I'm not confident at all that we know how much there is left, but we do know that it's an awful lot.
But Way of Kings is listed as a single book, not the Stormlight Archive series. The book is ready to be judged as a book. As much as I enjoy reading more of the series, and have hopes that it will deserve to be on such lists, I don't think that Way of Kings, on its own, really deserves to be there.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Yes. I wasn't referring to only unfinished groups. I wasn't responding to your point at all.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: I was really bored by Chronicles of Amber and The Moon is a harsh mistress.
I was disappointed that The Moon is a Harsh Mistress wasn't higher on the list. Then again, there are a number of things on the list I disagree with. I tried reading A Handmaid's Tale and, while it was well written and the story was interesting, it just didn't engage me. I felt the same about American Gods, and while Watchmen is great, it does not deserve to be so high.
As for the Moon again, I'm probably biased because I think that half the list should comprise of Heinlein books.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Early Heinlein, at least.
I haven't been able to get into Gaiman, either.
I don't mind seeing unfinished series on the list, and I also don't mind seeing series listed as one item on the list--it leaves more room for other authors, IMO. As far as the unfinished series, I figure this isn't the definitive list for all time. Hopefully this list will be repolled regularly as more good work is written.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Plenty of regular literature is fantasy or science fiction. Often it has just been around longer. Take a look at Gulliver's Travels for example - man discovers strange lands and meets odd creatures. Classic speculative fiction. You could say the same thing about the Odyssey. Frankenstein is often found on the lit. shelves, but it is science fiction.
I wouldn't use book store organization as a reliable guide. It is a convenience, not a real description.
I tend to agree with this. Frankenstein was science fiction before there was science fiction, so we see it as a classic, and thus regular literature, rather than science fiction. Published 100 years later it would have been science fiction and not gothic regular literature. Some of the stuff that was published before sci-fi and fantasy became big were pre-classified as regular lit before they got a chance to be called sci-fi, but looking back, I think we can clearly classify stuff like Animal Farm as sci-fi or fantasy, whatever you like.
At the end of the day, it's all just regular literature, but then, why do we even have genres?
In general, I feel like I'm woefully under read on sci-fi classics, but I don't know when I'll ever have the time to catch up. I read Dune and ASOIAF last year, and felt accomplished for that, but there's so much left still!
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:As for the Moon again, I'm probably biased because I think that half the list should comprise of Heinlein books.
+1
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: You could say the same thing about the Odyssey.
*points out the obligatory Robots in the Iliad / sci-fi connection *
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Exactly.
Posted by capaxinfiniti (Member # 12181) on :
No Lovecraft? Lame.
Not surprisingly, many of my favorite sci-fi books aren't on this list because they are all pretty obscure. Still an interesting list.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
NO GOLDEN COMPASS LIST IS BULLSHIT
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by capaxinfiniti: Not surprisingly, many of my favorite sci-fi books aren't on this list because they are all pretty obscure.
Such as?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:NO GOLDEN COMPASS
While I wouldn't put it on the list myself, I am surprised that a list from NPR listeners doesn't include it.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
If you read the little side story that explains how they classify things, they'll tell you that His Dark Materials was declared YA fiction.
I really liked The Golden Compass. The other two were just so-so.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I am REALLY REALLY sad that CS Lewis's space trilogy is number 100. That means it came in dead last, since we only voted out of a hundred. I can only assume it's because not many people have read it. It's the mind blowingly trippiest sci-fi I've ever read, and that's what makes things fantastic in my mind.
Posted by capaxinfiniti (Member # 12181) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon:
quote:Originally posted by capaxinfiniti: Not surprisingly, many of my favorite sci-fi books aren't on this list because they are all pretty obscure.
Such as?
Ship Of Fools by Richard Paul Russo - published as Unto Leviathan in Great Britain - and Doorways In The Sand by Rodger Zelazny are the two that first come to mind.
Obviously Zelazny is well known but most people haven't read anything beyond the Chronicles of Amber. This is even the case with some Zelazny fans I've talked to. Russo is less than a blip in the sci-fi universe and I believe SoF is his only foray into the genre. It received accolades but wasn't in the running for any of the more well known awards.
Another I should mention is Alan Dean Foster's novelization of Alien. In general I think novelizations suck but this one can add to the film in appreciable ways, even for big Alien fans like me. The only other novelization I've enjoyed - this time of a video game - is the continuing Halo series, which is probably more accurately classified under expanded-universe, not a novelization.
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
Wheel of Time is garbage. Even diehard fans of the series can be seen repeatedly exasperated while reading. "This crap goes on forever. I just wish it would end so I could be done with it."
Anything you have to force yourself to read out of obligation, is garbage.
(see also my post about Episode 3) I kill me.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
I really like Going Postal (unlike many). No way does it belong anywhere near this list. I don't think it's even in the top 20 Discworld novels (again speaking as someone who enjoys and re-reads it).
Much Zelazny greatness is missing and boy did they overrate Graphic Novels HUGELY. Verne and Wells (especially Verne) are underrated.
I'd like to have seen more (that is, ANY) of the children's fiction. I enjoyed A Wrinkle in Time, The Chronicles of Prydain, and even Harry Potter significantly more than some of their choices.
I was pleasantly surprised to see Lewis' Space Trilogy on there at all, but agree with Annie that they are neat books and deserve a place here.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by capaxinfiniti:
quote:Originally posted by Noemon:
quote:Originally posted by capaxinfiniti: [qb] Not surprisingly, many of my favorite sci-fi books aren't on this list because they are all pretty obscure.
Such as?
Ship Of Fools by Richard Paul Russo - published as Unto Leviathan in Great Britain
Never heard of it. What do you like about it? What are a few of your other, more common favorites (just so that I can get a feel for how compatible our tastes are)?
quote:and Doorways In The Sand by Rodger Zelazny are the two that first come to mind.
I'd argue that Doorways in the Sand is better known than you think it is. It's something of a fan favorite, by my understanding. I thought it was fun, but it didn't blow me out of the water.
quote:The only other novelization I've enjoyed - this time of a video game - is the continuing Halo series, which is probably more accurately classified under expanded-universe, not a novelization.
Have you read Card's adaptation of The Abyss? It's pretty good.
Lyrhawn, I agree about His Dark Materials. The first book had a ton of promise that the second two failed to live up to.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I am REALLY REALLY sad that CS Lewis's space trilogy is number 100. That means it came in dead last, since we only voted out of a hundred. I can only assume it's because not many people have read it. It's the mind blowingly trippiest sci-fi I've ever read, and that's what makes things fantastic in my mind.
I've read it. I liked it. But it does not belong on this list at all. They're interesting stories, but pretty terrible science fiction.
Regarding Zelazny, Lord of Light deserves to be on this list 10x more than the Amber books do.
quote:If you read the little side story that explains how they classify things, they'll tell you that His Dark Materials was declared YA fiction.
And YA fic is disqualified as being great science fiction or fantasy? Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
I think it's amusing that YA is disqualified but they have the Drizzt books. (they're great fun, but they're basically glorified fan fiction)
It is a popular choice, though, and so you'll always see that the books that have sold extremely well or are a part of our cultural memory being put selected regardless of quality.
Look at Fahrenheit 451 being put in the top 10 with The Dispossessed being back at 77, for example. The Dispossessed is possibly the deepest, most brilliant, most heartfelt book Le Guin has ever written, and Fahrenheit 451 I just found hollow and annoying, but because it's had such a large impact on our society and is read in just about every school in America, of course it'll be in the top 10.
I feel like something of a novice, I've only read 44 of the entries. (though a lot of them are multi-book entries) I know a lot about all but 10 of them, though, and a lot of them I read the first few pages and stopped for whatever reason.
Notably, The Colour of Magic is the only Pratchett Book I've ever read, and I only read 30 pages of it. (I also read an article he wrote for a small Young Writers type magazine I subscribed to as a kid) I know he has an insane number of people who absolutely love him and has dramatically influenced modern fantasy, I just can't seem to get into it.
OTOH, I've read just about every short story Roger Zelazny wrote, and think he's a far better short story writer than he ever was a novelist. I think there are a lot of incredible authors who simply don't have the temperament to write novels, and are forced into it by social/publisher/monetary pressure.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: Notably, The Colour of Magic is the only Pratchett Book I've ever read, and I only read 30 pages of it. (I also read an article he wrote for a small Young Writers type magazine I subscribed to as a kid) I know he has an insane number of people who absolutely love him and has dramatically influenced modern fantasy, I just can't seem to get into it.
You could try something other than The Colour of Magic, which I think is generally regarded as one of his weakest works. Guards, Guards, maybe, or Wyrd Sisters, or Small Gods. Or Nation or Only You Can Save Mankind, if you want to ignore Discworld entirely.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
I feel the problem with that is the same reason why I've never read The Wheel of Time. A lot of Jordan fans tell me the quality of his writing vastly improved as a grew older, and I believe them, but I can't get myself to start at a book in the middle of the series. I feel that I if I'm to start it I have to force myself to start with The Eye of the World and sludge through it. Otherwise I'll always feel like I'm missing part of the story. And I know for damn sure I'm not doing *that* until Sanderson finally completes the thing.
Likewise, I don't know if I'd ever be able to really get into Discworld if I don't start at the first book. It's just every time I try I get distracted. Reading really fascinating Sci-Fi and Fantasy novels has totally destroyed my concentration. For example, it took me over 10 years to read War and Peace even though I've read similar sized novels by George R.R. Martin in 8 hours, and read all of Ender's Game in a single sitting.
(Your use of italics has made me feel slightly inferior and crude, so I have done my best to compensate )
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
quote:Likewise, I don't know if I'd ever be able to really get into Discworld if I don't start at the first book.
You definitely could. The first two books are almost entirely irrelevant to most of the rest of the books. What's more, they're bad, in comparison to the rest, and the style of humor is different.
The suggested starting places are good. Guards, Guards is a good introduction to the Watch part of the Discworld books, Wyrd Sisters is a good introduction to the Witches part of the Discworld books, and Small Gods is a good nearly standalone Discworld book (that's one of the best written). Hmm, for the Death part of the Discworld books, I think Mort might be the best starting place. After you've started on at least all those areas, you might go back and read Color of Magic, just to be ready to read the rest of the Rincewind part of the Discworld books.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: I feel the problem with that is the same reason why I've never read The Wheel of Time. A lot of Jordan fans tell me the quality of his writing vastly improved as a grew older, and I believe them, but I can't get myself to start at a book in the middle of the series.
As Fugu says (well, implies), Discworld isn't really one series; it's several series, set in the same world, which only very occasionally touch each other. The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic are both part of the Rincewind sub-series, which I generally consider forgettable, although the latter volumes are better than the first. There's a chart that shows how the various series connect, which might help?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:I am REALLY REALLY sad that CS Lewis's space trilogy is number 100. That means it came in dead last, since we only voted out of a hundred. I can only assume it's because not many people have read it. It's the mind blowingly trippiest sci-fi I've ever read, and that's what makes things fantastic in my mind.
I've read it. I liked it. But it does not belong on this list at all. They're interesting stories, but pretty terrible science fiction.
Regarding Zelazny, Lord of Light deserves to be on this list 10x more than the Amber books do.
quote:If you read the little side story that explains how they classify things, they'll tell you that His Dark Materials was declared YA fiction.
And YA fic is disqualified as being great science fiction or fantasy?
Yeah that really bugged me too. They are actually doing a separate YA Top 100 list next summer. It seems pretty silly to me to separate them. If people vote a YA novel into the top 100 of all time, then so be it, but, they wanted to create two separate lists.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
When YA fic is segregated from "real" fiction, it's usually for a dumb reason.
[ August 13, 2011, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
Are there even enough notable YA books to make a 100 list? From what I remember, there's only a handful of notable books/series, but maybe that's just my lack of experience with the classification.
I'm assuming we'll see books like Harry Potter, the Hobbit, Narnia, Golden Compass, Eragon, and so on, but I find it questionable that these are YA while others aren't. Ender's Game seems more YA than not, if you ask me, since it deals with a child and most people read it in middle school (although certainly not everyone).
And what's up with the Thrawn series being on here. Isn't that Star Wars? Or am I thinking of something else? Oh, and the Xanth series...ugh. Piers Anthony is an OK writer, but he's not THAT good, and Xanth is hardly his best work. Just my opinion, of course.
I'm also sad to not see Old Man's War or Speaker for the Dead, two of my absolute favorite books, right after EG.
[ August 14, 2011, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: Jeff C. ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The Thrawn Series wasn't in the top 100 was it? Don't get me wrong, that was a great series, but I don't know about top 100.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jeff C.: I'm also sad to not see Old Man's War or Speaker for the Dead, two of my absolute favorite books, right after EG.
#74.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
quote:Originally posted by ambyr:
quote:Originally posted by Jeff C.: I'm also sad to not see Old Man's War or Speaker for the Dead, two of my absolute favorite books, right after EG.
#74.
Justice!
And the Thrawn series is #88.
Posted by Tim_Ferno (Member # 12628) on :
I've read 45 on the list.
Lord of Light is perhaps my favorite Zelanzy novel; I really couldn't get into The Chronicles of Amber.
I notice that many of these have already been made into movies or adapted into other mediums in general. Perhaps this has inflated the popularity of some of the entries.
Books I'm surprised didn't make it:
The Stars My Destination (a.k.a. Tiger, Tiger) by Alfred Bester
I have heard rumors of this getting made into a movie. If the movie is any good, perhaps it will start appearing on lists like this again.
The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov
The version I have is translated by Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky. It is one of the best novels I have ever read, period. I feel it is clearly fantasy, but I could see it being classified differently.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
Welcome to Hatrack, Tim!
Lord of Light is definitely a good book. I really prefer Zelazny's short fiction to his novels, though.
I was also a little surprised not to see any Bester on the list, though I'd have been as likely to nominate The Demolished Man as The Stars my Destination.
Posted by Tim_Ferno (Member # 12628) on :
As far as YA being excluded, am I remembering Something Wicked this Way Comes incorrectly? It really seemed like a young adult novel when I read it... perhaps that wasn't the target audience though.
Posted by Phillyn (Member # 12597) on :
I'm really disappointed, but not surprised*, to see that Julian May's Intervention/Many Coloured Land/Galactic Milieu books didn't make the list. That is a stunning series, so full of huge ideas and great characters, and amid a really strong story a sly sense of humour that never gets in the way.
*Nobody but me seems to have read them!
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Phillyn, a former coworker of mine absolutely loves those. I picked them up at a library book sale, but haven't gotten to them yet. They're on my list, though.
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
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*
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I kill me.
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