A buddy of mine showed me a lovely video put up on YouTube a few days ago by GetUp. (an Australian activist group) Unlike the typical politically oriented video where they tell a sappy, heartbreaking story of injustice followed by a lecture by a stern faced older gentleman, this one simply shows the progression of the lives of two men who fall in love, and eventually decide to marry.
And it made me wonder - how much of the opposition to gay marriage comes from people who have never actually known a gay couple? It's easier to think of homosexuality as a gross perversion when you can just imagine all gay people as being strange and diseased. I'm a very rational person, and generally disapprove of trying to convince someone by manipulating their emotions instead of presenting a good argument. (It's why I dislike PETA) On the other hand, if much of the opposition to gay marriage is based in fear instead of reason, wouldn't an appeal to one's emotions work better than an argument?
How about those of you here who are opposed to gay marriage? Do you see this video as a legitimate argument, or a cheap trick?
In other news, I think it's been over a week since this forum has had an active thread about gay marriage. That can't be healthy.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: On the other hand, if much of the opposition to gay marriage is based in fear instead of reason
It's still true: NOM, above all other anti-gay groups, is ridiculous enough to actively hurt their cause.
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
Nice video.
I remember about five years ago my mother (who has never, ever been homophobic, but...) said to me that she supported gay rights, but she believed that the word 'marriage' would always mean 'man and woman' to her, that she couldn't change.
Last year, she mentioned that she saw a gay couple in the supermarket and they were so adorable to each other that she realized that she was just smiling like a crazy lady at the sweetness of them. I think something in her went 'click' that day. She now regularly uses the words 'husbands' and 'wives' about married gay couples. She doesn't remember telling me what she thought before. She gets upset and indignant when anyone suggests that they are against gay marriage.
That's how the world changes. It takes time, and it's a shock to the system at first, but it gets there.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
:D
And, thankfully for my sanity, it's a process which has had at least a decade to go to work. See how far our tolerance and acceptance has come as a society since just a few decades ago? How much easier it is to get over these intolerances, because you can now live your life openly gay without nearly as much of the repression and stigmatization you would have before, we can watch as understanding moves us forward from the ignorant attitudes of our past.
It's the more idealistic and pleasant side of the activism for change. It's less about confronting those who act to spread and maintain homophobia, fear, and legal discrimination — it's about creating an environment where those aren't formed in the first place.
Posted by Anthonie (Member # 884) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: It's the more idealistic and pleasant side of the activism for change. It's less about confronting those who act to spread and maintain homophobia, fear, and legal discrimination — it's about creating an environment where those aren't formed in the first place.
Hear, hear!
Posted by Anthonie (Member # 884) on :
Speaking from personal experience, it requires much greater energy to confront those who either knowingly or ignorantly advocate AGAINST gay people than it does to simply reach out and share my life experience without needing to justify anything.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Lovely ad! I got all choked up.
Even when the day comes that we have marriage equality, there will still be the loud, hateful anti-gay bigots. While fighting them is satisfying on some level, they are the minority and will always be the minority. But ads like this are like wonderful exposure therapy for the quietly fearful.
It reminds me of my mother who is not a racist, but she is someone who let a few isolated events create this fear and apprehension in her. She is the woman who started teaching me about the horrors and the lessons of the Holocaust long before it was mentioned in a classroom. But tucked away in predominantly white communities, she just never really grasped the full extent of what it means to be tolerant. When I entered into a biracial relationship, she became very upset. She was unsure of him and concerned for our safety. But then nothing bad happened. It became her new state of normal and now its amazing to hear her speak up against friends who express those same negative feelings she once had.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
Shanna, that quiet fear can go much deeper and last a lot longer than you might think. I might as well answer my own post...
I was raised in a church where I was taught homosexuality was a sin, that gays were perverts who were in rebellion, and that acceptance of gay rights would act as a catalyst in the destruction of our nation. My parents of course are very loving people, and never carried signs or expressed hatred, but they always talked about the handful of gay people we knew like they would talk about a drug addict or convict - quiet, pitying, solemn, and making it clear they were a Bad Influence.
Of course, I've always been intellectually in favor of gay rights. In high school one of my best friends came out as gay, and I supported him. (barely) In my mind, I thought being gay was perfectly natural and would tell anyone who asked that I supported gay marriage. But I could never really get past that knee-jerk reaction part of my brain that thinks "it's just a phase" or "it' just a fetish" or "they're just trying to get attention/trying to get back at their parents." It's not what I really thought about gay people, but looking back, it's what I *believed.* It's what had been pumped into me since an early age, and I could never really get past it.
It wasn't until I was 20 year old that I finally got past it. That summer, living by the beach on the Gulf Coast, I spent almost every Friday night with my friends who I'll call Kate and Jenna. After crazy nights, we'd meet about midnight and go down to the beach and spend all night drinking vodka and cranberry juice, talking for hours, falling asleep in the sand and waking up to sunrise over the water. I had the wonderful privilege of watching my friends fall in love during that summer. It was the day Jenna left for Texas and I spent an hour holding Kate, trying to comfort her as she cried her eyes out, that something finally clicked inside of me. I somehow finally understood that her feelings were just as real and complex and important as mine were. And that her loving another woman instead of a man didn't make them any less real.
I dunno, reading over that it looks pretty cheesy and obvious. But it took me 20 years to finally get past my upbringing and actually believe it. I think over the years as more individual people grow and change, and experience life and friendship with their gay family members and friends, we'll start seeing our societal fear of homosexuals come to an end. It's nice to think that groups like NOM are the last desperate dying breaths of a dark and bitter monster that has destroyed so many people these past few years.
...And, after reading that last line, I think I better stop writing and get some sleep before I get completely unhinged. I'm sure your brains will thank me. Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I really like the ad too.
It's also nice to see a GetUp campaign get some serious media attention (I've been supporting them for a while - it's a fairly new, non partisan activist grass roots group, and they've been doing some fantastic stuff.)
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Oh man, you made me tear up.
My parents just don't really understand gay people and I think a story like this might help them. My mother has told me outright that "they're different from us". Her image of gay people is Gay Pride on the TV.
I fully expect her to do what many of your parents have at some point; turn a corner and then deny that she ever thought differently.
Like many of you, because I grew up in a very uncertain-about-gayness household, I came to wanting to be accepting and normalised first before I actually got there. I remember the day my friend (recently married over the summer) came out to me as bisexual and I remember that shortly after telling someone crossly who had said that being gay was "disgusting" that, "they're just people." I didn't really believe it fully yet but I wanted really strongly to be a person who did.
And I think in wanting to be that person, I slowly became that person. I read once that we can change parts of who we are by simply acting like someone who is more kind, more compassionate, more tolerant and accepting. By acting in an accepting way we change our brains to become literally more accepting.
This is why changing the law is important. If we allow gay marriage, we are as a society acting in a tolerant manner even if elements of the society are still freaking out. Slowly, those elements fade away as they realise there's nothing rational to worry about.
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
It takes time.
My family live in rural Utah. I'll admit it, my parents (grandparents, etc) are mildly racist. Why? Because in their sleepy corner of the state, they only see white people and Latinos. They don't understand other people and places, and that breeds a type of fear.
My grandparents views toward gay marriage probably won't change, just as their views toward race are still skewed by another time. But my mother's opinion has changed. You know what the greatest catalysts have been? Television -- particularly Ellen Degeneres and the show Modern Family.
Gay people who are open but not angry will change people's hearts, one at a time. And media (like this commercial). But it will take time.
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: How about those of you here who are opposed to gay marriage? Do you see this video as a legitimate argument, or a cheap trick?
I didn't feel it was a cheap trick. It also didn't change my mind, but I'm probably not the sort of gay marriage opponent they were trying to target.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
Fair enough.
Do you feel that your opposition to SSM is more due to your religious convictions, or a belief that it would undermine the institution of marriage? Or both? Or neither?
How to you feel about outlawing, penalizing, or regulating various activities related to sins that adversely effect one's relationship with himself, his fellow man, his society, the natural world, and God? A few examples: alcohol consumption and narcotics in general, promiscuous sex (one night stands, adultery, and that sort of thing, not committed relationships), prostitution, strip clubs, overeating and other sins of overindulgence, sloth and other sins related to disrespecting or mistreating one's own body, greed and stinginess(someone buying a new luxury car when they have given none of their possessions or wealth to the poor), theft, and slander and lies in general?
I realize some of the above are already regulated or illegalized by our government already, while others are almost completely ignored. Where do you draw the line between legislating morality and allowing people to dig their own grave, so to speak?
I hope my questions don't scare you off, and if you feel any of them are unfairly or inappropriately worded, let me know and I'll try to ask them in a more careful and thoughtful manner.
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