After the accident in which the crippled MayDayMiracle jetliner crash-landed in SiouxCity,Iowa, aviation experts conducted simulations in which test pilots and trainer pilots tried to land similarly stricken aircraft. "I'm not aware of any that replicated the success these guys had." None of the simulator pilots were able to make a survivable landing. "Most of the simulations never even made it close to the ground." [before totally losing control]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Man, that was heavy. Incredible to see what the cause of the accident ended up being, and how even though it was deadly, saving the passengers they saved was still a miracle.
Thanks for posting this.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
The MayDayMiracle is really one of the most inexplicably impossible survivable landings ever. NO hydraulics. Nothing. Aileron stuck .. wherever dead hydraulics leave it, i don't know.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
A helicopter crash landed in my neighborhood recently, luckily I have always seen planes and the like as the most expensive coffins ever so I have become no more paranoid than before.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:luckily I have always seen planes and the like as the most expensive coffins ever so I have become no more paranoid than before.
Planes are "the most expensive coffins ever?"
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
People survive car accidents while going 70 plus.
People even swam away from the Titanic, some with nothing worse than a bit of hypothermia and unhealthy exposure.
But when the plane is plummeting toward anything besides a runway or the Hudson River apparently, you are going to die. There is nothing you can do about it. Exploding engines, you're wearing what? something akin to a middle of the backseat seatbelt? oh and that whole giant heavy metal thing smacking against a hard surface. Even if the plane is over the ocean the velocity of the plane is such that the water is no cushion to fall into. So yes, falling inside of even a small aircraft turns that thing into a really expensive coffin in my opinion.
As a matter of fact, last Thansgiving morning here in Arizona a man flew two other men and his three young children into a mountain. The pilot had tons of hours logged and he was also the mechanic, all of them died. It took a while just to get people out to the wreckage. I'll stay away from planes unless I really really really have to thank you very much.
Edit to add.
Or did you mean that in the way of "I can name plenty of coffins that cost more than a boeing 747?"
Because if you can I would fascinated.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:I'll stay away from planes unless I really really really have to thank you very much.
- commercial air travel is so much more amazingly unlikely to kill you (per passenger mile, air travel is safer than driving by more than a factor of two) that it pretty straightforwardly qualifies as the safest way to travel
staying away from planes because of safety concerns is all kinds of irrational.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
In response to your anecdotal (and understandably distressing, sincerely) evidence, AH, allow me to respond with my own anecdotal evidence of the hundreds of thousands of people who regularly travel by aircraft all their lives and not only don't die doing it, but aren't even injured.
I mean, hey. If flying is scary for you, no beef. I get it. Ain't sayin' you should do it. But...to assert the idea that it really is dangerous, rather than scary, as a transportation method is just going to be pointed out as flawed, simple as that. *shrug* Sorry man.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
Yeah it's the latter point that hammers it home for me, Sam.
For many years I thought sort of like AH: Yes, statistically plane crashes are safer, but you can walk away from a car accident, and you can react to them and exert some control over your situation. Flying felt like I had zero control, and I thought "It may not be likely to go down, but if it does I have no chance of survival."
Then I found out that I was just plane wrong (yuk yuk), and not only do accidents happen less often, but they're more survivable, too!
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I mean seriously think about this:
quote:The association said there was one airliner accident for every 1.2 million flights.
asdf.
I mean I am pretty much clinically phobic of air travel, so I completely understand that feeling of 'something could happen that makes me totally 100% dead dead dead dead dead and then we will plummet to earth and death is completely assured' but I understand it to be completely irrational. I pop a good dose of xanax and fly anyway.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
I'll admit that I have never been comfortable with planes, even when they fly above me, I have been this way my entire life with no discernible trauma to point to. It has yet to be an issue for me as I don't know anyone outside of AZ and I don't even make enough to visit some distant family in Michigan.
This isn't like having a fear of house cats, there is an inherent danger and total release of control over whether you survive or not when you fly. Before you use the good 'ol "but everything is dangerous" line, travel by air is not regularly necessary for most people and especially not myself, so I don't go out of my way to do so.
Call me what you like, but so long as things like AF447 can still happen I am not flying unless I have a very good reason.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:As a matter of fact, last Thansgiving morning here in Arizona a man flew two other men and his three young children into a mountain. The pilot had tons of hours logged and he was also the mechanic, all of them died.
And how many people died in auto accidents that week? From a quick googling on average it'd be about 805.
You are more aware of airplane deaths specifically because they are so much more rare than automobile deaths. Car deaths don't make the front page.
Feel free to keep your irational beliefs, but at least have the courtesy to not pretend they are justified statistically.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: 'something could happen that makes me totally 100% dead dead dead dead dead
It's that fourth dead that REALLY sucks.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
AH, linking to something like that is like linking to a story about a lottery winner as justification for the mass amount of money you spend weekly on lottery tickets.
Your justification does not accurately represent the statistical base rate of the event you are concerned about. Like others have pointed out, it's one thing, and fine, to say that you have a fear of flying that is irrational given the evidence. I have a fear of spiders that I acknowledge is irrational. But your fear of flying is not justified by the actual chance of death from flying. You are confusing possibility with probability.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: [QB] I mean seriously think about this:
quote:The association said there was one airliner accident for every 1.2 million flights.
asdf.
I mean I am pretty much clinically phobic of air travel, so I completely understand that feeling of 'something could happen that makes me totally 100% dead dead dead dead dead and then we will plummet to earth and death is completely assured' but I understand it to be completely irrational. I pop a good dose of xanax and fly anyway.
If that is the only way to get me on a plane, I'd rather take the train.
Now if only we could figure out how modernize America's rail roads, they are horribly outdated but there is a lot to change out.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Being scared of air travel is not about heights, its about control. There is an irrational idea that even in a car speeding at 90MPH, with you in the back seat while someone else is driving, you can control the outcome of the wreck. Meanwhile, in a plane, unless you are the pilot, you have no control over what is going to happen.
Its wrong.
Its irrational.
But it explains a lot.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I survived a commercial airplane crash. No jive.
.
.
.
.
I admit it was the airplane equivalent of a fender bender. The plane crashed into a truck on the ground, but the airplane undeniably crashed while I was in it and I unquestionable survived, without even a scratch.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I don't like to fly. It's a control thing. I fly all the time anyway, because it's convenient and I have places to be.
That said, I will not set foot anywhere near a private or single engine aircraft. Those things, so far as I'm concerned, are deathtraps.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:This isn't like having a fear of house cats, there is an inherent danger and total release of control over whether you survive or not when you fly. Before you use the good 'ol "but everything is dangerous" line, travel by air is not regularly necessary for most people and especially not myself, so I don't go out of my way to do so.
No, it's kind of like a fear of house cats when you factor in that you travel by automobile very regularly (I suspect), which isn't strictly speaking necessary either if we're going to be looking at things from a safety concern: you could work from home, or work close to where you live, or walk to work (plenty of dangers there, of course), or something. Riding in an airplane can certainly feel scary-I wouldn't even say it's irrational to be afraid of flying. There are some very sensible fears at the root of that.
But to be afraid of traveling by aircraft is a bit different, and as others have said, aside from irrational fears there's not a leg to stand on with respect to this fear.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: I don't like to fly. It's a control thing. I fly all the time anyway, because it's convenient and I have places to be.
That said, I will not set foot anywhere near a private or single engine aircraft. Those things, so far as I'm concerned, are deathtraps.
I think that's the musician in you talking. Too much bad history.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: If that is the only way to get me on a plane, I'd rather take the train.
It is not. I take the xanax if I don't want to be distracted or stressed with my irrational fear of airplanes. Benzos are good for individual event use to short-circuit the panic response and make it so that flying is actually fairly enjoyable again.
But if it's not really available, I just suck it up and get on the damn plane because while I have had the phobia since childhood, it is irrational and I recognize it as such, and I'm not going to let it ground me while air flight is such an amazingly quick and cheap (and amazingly safe) way to travel about the country.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Unless you are also afraid of crying babies.
Crap, which thread am I in again?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
who would take a baby on a plane?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
If you take enough Xanax, I bet I could get you to.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: who would take a baby on a plane?
A kidnapper.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: If you take enough Xanax, I bet I could get you to.
I need to be a sort of a PSA talking teddybear that says stuff like "Cloudy Niney Beary reminds you! Xanax and parenting do not mix!"
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Woe to all the parents who must take it to function.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: who would take a baby on a plane?
A kidnapper.
If I groan, that will just encourage you, right?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
who would let someone on xanax keep a baby?
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: who would take a baby on a plane?
A kidnapper.
If I groan, that will just encourage you, right?
I can neither confirm nor deny that.
It's moot, though, since we both know you already groaned. Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: who would let someone on xanax keep a baby?
Someone uncomfortable with abortion?
That one may have been in poor taste.
Oh!
A stonemason!
...Okay that one was just incredibly thin. That kind of "keep" wouldn't even be a verb!
Sorry, Sam. I got nothin'.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: It's moot, though, since we both know you already groaned.
LIES! Lies, I tell you!
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
The only thing that scares me about flying is the snakes.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: That said, I will not set foot anywhere near a private or single engine aircraft. Those things, so far as I'm concerned, are deathtraps.
Private planes are way better than commercial, because it's much easier to talk the pilot into doing acrobatics and buzzing your boyfriend's house.
Not only have I flown extensively in private planes, I've flown extensively in a private plane my dad build in our garage. Out of styrofoam.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I used to LOVE flying, now I hate the very idea of...then again, I used to be under 5 feet tall, and now I'm well over six. Stupid airlines, make a human sized seat would ya?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I mean, come on. Wouldn't YOU trust these guys with your life?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:. Before you use the good 'ol "but everything is dangerous" line, travel by air is not regularly necessary for most people and especially not myself, so I don't go out of my way to do so.
Traveling by air may not be necessary, but there are many opportunities in life that are closed to you if you won't fly.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:did you mean that in the way of "I can name plenty of coffins that cost more than a boeing 747?"
I'm pretty sure a coffin costs more than most airplane tickets...
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: If you take enough Xanax, I bet I could get you to.
Would you be willing to tie down my hands, hold my nose and mouth closed until I swallowed as well?
I really do not like pain killers, or any medication besides antibiotics to be honest. If I need to use an addictive substance to cope with something, I assume I should never be participating in that activity.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
AH, I was not speaking to you in that post.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:If I need to use an addictive substance to cope with something, I assume I should never be participating in that activity.
Then you have poor assumptions. If you got an onset of agoraphobia or PTSD and found yourself unable to go outside your home without a crippling stress response (and yes, these things happen), and something like a medium-term benzo prescription would be prescribed to allow you to navigate your social phobia, would you use the same logic to assume you should never be participating in the activity of going outside your home?
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Is zanex addictive?
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: I really do not like pain killers, or any medication besides antibiotics to be honest. If I need to use an addictive substance to cope with something, I assume I should never be participating in that activity.
That may be the case, and again, it might be a practical reason not to fly. But it does not justify the underlying fear of flying, which you seem unwilling to admit is irrational. Or you've moved on and just don't want to talk about it.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Why is it is so important to you Strider that he admit his fear is irrational?
Seems like it's kinda personal to be demanding admissions.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
I don't care that it is irrational, I don't like planes and that is that. There is no reason to believe that my unwillingness to fly my ability to function in my everyday life any time soon, so it is hardly a problem.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
AH made certain claims about the danger of flying. Those claims are factually in error. Admitting his fear of flying is irrational is the other side of admitting that he was wrong about his claims. He can do either one. Would you be more comfortable if I couched it in terms of admitting he was wrong about the facts regarding the dangers of air travel? It's okay to be wrong, it's not the end of the world.
This is an internet forum. We (the royal we) converse about things here. Often times we take opposing sides on issues. Sometimes we take opposing sides because we believe different facts. When someone has the wrong facts we hope they update their beliefs in light of new evidence. AH seemed to just drop that part of the conversation when confronted with that evidence, and now seemed to be justifying his refusal to fly with tangential issues. Which, as I stated, is fine. Our subjective experience and emotional reactions to things *should* be important considerations in our decision making process. But I also believe it's important to become aware of where those reactions come from and whether they reflect the state of affairs in the world around us or not.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I see your point, but keep in mind that people's phobias can be very personal and difficult to confront, so this one suggests trying to temper your logical and appropriate desire for upfront discussion with sympathy for people's foibles.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Is zanex addictive?
Xanax is in the benzodiazepines class of drugs. They can definitely be abused. Giving them to a significant addiction/substance abuse risk patient is a big no-no. They also can't be used indefinitely like a SSRI, because you end up with dependence and diminishing returns — in spite of this, they are extremely helpful for plenty of medical situations, and are often prescribed short or medium term to try to short-circuit a stress, anxiety, panic, depression response to something. I've watched a 6 week benzo prescription be used in combination with CBT to reverse profound phobias.
It is also melting away my plane phobia. slowly. by changing what would usually be a repetitious situational triggering into a .. pretty mellow experience, which allows me to gradually lose the phobic response via continued exposure. Which is the system by which I've managed to extinguish all my other phobias (used to have a lot). Plane travel is the only remaining one because it's a little impractical to take a plane ride every day for a month as part of a campaign of extinguishing a phobia. Oh well!
Xanax is particularly perfect for plane travel phobia because dependence issues (and withdrawal, which is pretty gnarly for benzos) do not arise if they are used as a spot treatment for panic response, and NOTHING ELSE.
One day I'd like to be able to drink on flights, though.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Thanks for the info Samp!
I use Xanex to go to the dentist. Had a bad phobia for a long time, now no problem at all.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I see your point, but keep in mind that people's phobias can be very personal and difficult to confront, so this one suggests trying to temper your logical and appropriate desire for upfront discussion with sympathy for people's foibles.
People's phobias are allowed to be very personal. Illegitimate claims don't get a free pass if they result from an open issue. Afforded some respect, maybe? What we're addressing are illegitimate claims about flying and treatment. They can come from an admitted phobia or not, they're not given a pass one way or another from being respectfully challenged as being factually in error.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Strider was actively demanding that AH admit his fears were irrational, not asking him to admit his facts were bogus, that's why I said something.
Also, AH wasn't discussing the overall safety of planes vs cars, he was talking about the fatality of the crashes.
Yes people should admit when something they have said is crap, but I do draw the line about demanding people admit their fears are irrational.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
Maybe you have some conception of what it means to be irrational that gives it a stronger negative and personal connotation than is actually meant by me?
The point is, acting based on false facts is not irrational. It's rational in light of your knowledge. Though, using false facts as a post hoc rationalization for an emotion is somewhat problematic (it's not clear whether AH is doing this or not, all we have at this point is correlation, not a causal story of his acquiring a fear of flying). In either case, when those facts are corrected, either you change your behavior/judgment accordingly, i.e. - AH can say, "wow, okay, you guys are right, I no longer have a fear of flying." That would be one rational response. Or he can say, "wow, okay, you guys are right, air travel is safer, but I still have a fear of flying, either because my fear of flying is unrelated to those facts, or because this deep seated emotional response is laid down in my neurophysiology and cannot be gotten rid of so easily." That would be a rational assessment of the situation, but would now leave the behavior in light of that information as being irrational. It would be an acknowledgement of being irrational. I don't see this as the personal affront you are making it out to be. (Maybe you want to say that our definition of rationality is problematic if it doesn't take into account the bodily dispositions of real human agents? I'm not entirely unagreeable to that point of view)
Or you can ignore the new facts, or shift the conversation to tangentially related, but not relevant issues and deny the charge of irrationality. This now displays a second level of irrationality.
It could be that AH accepted the facts, and just didn't want to talk about that aspect anymore, and moved on to talking about the reality of his emotional response to flying. But if that's the case, he wasn't clear about that. Which is why I made that other post.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I appreciate your thoughtful response.
I might suggest you review AH's initial post which you seem to be saying he is claiming that air travel is not as safe as car travel.
From my reading of it, he was simply sharing his emotional response that it is comforting thought that if you are in a car crash it seems more survivable/controllable, where as in a plane, one might acutely feel the lack of control when it comes to your life and death.
I understand why people would think that he was saying that planes are not as safe, but I'm not seeing that from his post, just him sharing his feelings on the mater, no claim to fact.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
whoops, I missed AH's response in between my response to you last page, where he said he didn't care about being irrational. That's a fair response, and what I mentioned above as being an option.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
It's not particularly irrational to fear a lower probability event with a higher death rate than a higher probability event with a lower death rate eg More likely to die in your home than from being struck by lightning. People still go inside when lightning is near.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
Is the death rate of plane crashes higher than that of car crashes? I only glanced at samp's link, but I thought it was addressing that point.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
Though I actually question your assertion. It depends on in what way you mean "fear" in that sentence.
Take shark attacks. If you are attacked by a shark it's incredibly dangerous. And there are two things to fear about shark attacks. You can fear "shark attacks" in general. Or you can say that being attacked by a shark is a fearful experience. People fear the former far out of proportion to the probability of the actual event occurring. Separately, the act of imagining the experience of being attacked by a shark may accurately reflect, and probably even under-reflects, the actual amount of fear that you would feel in that situation.
But it's still proper for us to say that, in general, the population has an irrational fear of shark attacks, even if their conception of the fear they would experience during a shark attack is accurate. Those are different questions.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
Long ago, my brother and I stopped saying "Have a safe flight" to each other. After all, there's really almost nothing one can do to influence the safety of a flight. So now we say, "Don't trip at the airport!"
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Or if you're flying out of Portland, "Don't strip at the airport."
I think the thought of falling out of the sky is a bit horrifying, which probably drives a lot of the fear. On the other hand, I'm much more nervous driving on two-lane highways. It isn't about control, for me, I think -- I don't trust my abilities and feel safer as a passenger than as a driver.
Sam, congratulations on extinguishing some of your phobias. I'm working on getting rid of my fear of bees, and it's a great feeling not experiencing panic that I know is irrational. By the way, AH (and others who want to avoid medications), you don't necessarily need to take benzodiazepines or any anti-anxiety drugs to treat phobias. It's pretty amazing how well phobia desensitization works.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I actually feel loads safer in a plane than I do driving. Even when we hit turbulence I'm like "ooh, this is kind of fun."
On the other hand, I get queasy at the thought of driving. Not enough to stop driving but just that quick half a second pause where I'm like "I really don't want to be in a car."
I like not being the one responsible for my safety. I also trust the pilots more than I trust the morons on the road. The DMV will give any half-wit teenager a driver's license and the majority of adults seem to act as if they were never taught how to signal or check their side mirrors.
In the last year, two of my coworkers (and we're a small location with about 25 people on staff) were in serious car accidents. The first had to be air lifted from the scene in a helicopter and spent months in and out of surgery to repair all the bone damage to his skull. The second happened just two weeks ago. She actually broke her back and while she's walking with the aid of a brace, she's got a long recovery ahead of her.
My own accident a few years ago was caused by a careless driver who couldn't handle wet road conditions. Thankfully, the large amount of water in the ditch stopped my car from careening right through the median and hitting incoming traffic that was traveling 70 mph on the highway.
Personally, I'm irrationally terrified of spiders and needles (though after my last trip to the hospital, the latter is now a rational fear.) I can totally understand why someone would be afraid of flying but I'd personally take it over driving any day of the week.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Why is the needle fear now rational? Did you experience extravasation, blood borne disease, or a waking dream where you are serving as a practice dummy for student phlebotomists?
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